Sherpa Leadership Podcast
Welcome to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast, where we help you climb higher in life and leadership. Whether you’re an entrepreneur, business owner, or leading a team, this podcast is designed to give you practical leadership tools, frameworks, and real-world insights to help you grow.
Sherpa Leadership Podcast
Episode 2 - Leadership's Crucible: Moving from Managing to Stewardship - Part One
What separates a manager who merely assigns tasks from a leader who cultivates autonomous, confident problem-solvers? Michael Monroe, a Christian strategist, marketer, and digital innovation expert, joins us to unpack the crucial transitions from managing to leading to stewarding.
Drawing from his extensive experience building remote teams since 2009, Monroe articulates the painful but necessary "leadership crucible" that shapes effective leaders. Having navigated his own professional transformation from Vector Marketing sales leader to digital strategist, he shares how transferable skills and coaching relationships made these transitions possible.
The heart of our conversation centers on a revolutionary framework for delegation that transforms dependent team members into autonomous leaders. Monroe outlines five distinct levels of delegation that progress from solving others' problems to empowering them with complete ownership. This methodical approach addresses why many leaders struggle to develop talent—they skip crucial developmental stages or remain stuck in problem-solving mode rather than cultivating problem-solvers.
Perhaps most valuably, Monroe addresses the heartbreak many leaders experience when developing talent only to watch them leave. Rather than viewing this as failure, he reframes it as successful stewardship and offers practical strategies like "stay interviews" and clearly defined career pathways to transform painful departures into successful transitions and future collaborations.
Whether you're leading a remote team, transitioning to a new leadership role, or working to develop future leaders within your organization, this conversation provides actionable insights to help you climb higher in your leadership journey. Subscribe now and join us for part two of our interview with Michael Monroe in our next episode.
anytime I'm making a leap from good at this to new thing with a bigger opportunity. I've always, I've always uh, I've always had a coach, the right, who's bring the house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like they will solve the problems you're listening to the sherpa leadership podcast your guide to climbing higher in life and leadership. I'm reed moore and alongside chase williams, we're listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast your guide to climbing higher in life and leadership. I'm Reed Moore and alongside Chase Williams, we're here to help you break through obstacles, scale your potential and lead with greater clarity and purpose. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, reed Moore, alongside my good friend and co-host, chase Williams. As always, we are here to help you climb higher in life and leadership. Our job here is to give you the tools and the practical insights from amazing people to be able to help you move forward in your life, have breakthrough and really be able to carry the weight of leadership much, much easier. So we're here today with a good friend of ours, a seasoned leader that we are really excited to be able to bring to you.
Speaker 3:Who we have here Mr Michael Monroe, and I'm going to do a little intro here for Mike. But Mike Monroe is a Christian strategist, marketer, trainer and relentless innovator. His work's been published in Success, forbes, fast Company, killer Startups and CEO World. Michael's the digital strategy manager for Vector Marketing, the direct sales arm of Co-Cutlery, an American-made product that recently celebrated its 75th anniversary Love it. He's also a thought leader at Giftology, north America's number one relationship agency. Giftology's mission is to fast forward relationships to solve business problems. I first met Mike as part of a men's group that we put together at our church, and I've come to love not only his brilliance but just his willingness to share it with others. He's certainly been an inspiration to me. I get to learn to be a better leader and a better innovator from Mr Mike Monroe. So glad to have you here today, man.
Speaker 1:Thanks. That's kind of ironic, by the way, because the last time we did coffee it was me recording you which would insinuate that I was the one doing all the learning. So you know, hopefully I touched something there.
Speaker 3:Hopefully it's a little back and forth, but it's great to have you here today.
Speaker 2:Thank, it's great to have you here today. Thank you. Well, and it's one of the best things about you is you are one of the smartest people I know, and part of that is the fact that you are just a relentless learner and we want to dig into that and all the other things that makes you what you really are, which is a truly successful leader. Thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you once called me I brag about this you once called me when you introduced me at one point at our men's group. You called me mentally aggressive.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, which was my favorite description of all time, because it actually made hyper intellectualism sound masculine and tough and cool, and so it's like you know it'd be a little violent like, yeah, like take that math team Right.
Speaker 1:So, so, thank you for that. So, yeah, I, uh, I'm excited. Where do we want to? Where do we want to go?
Speaker 2:So let's start with, just give us a lay of the land of who you are. You know you're a seasoned leader. You're somebody who you know carries the weight of leadership responsibility not just for, you know, being on stage or a performance, but you have to show up day in and day out and get the job done and inspire people to do that. So where do you come from? And just walk us through your career up to this point.
Speaker 1:Let me answer the what do you do question, right, so the what do I do question. I have been work from home since 2009. Okay, like, way before it was cool, way before it was, everybody else was doing it. And it's incredible when you work from home because, obviously, as we've all experienced um, you know it's 1099s. You guys got started in your real estate background. I was 1099 at Cutco as a 19 year old college kid, like doing in-home presentations, rope, leather, penny, I'm sure people have. I mean, you guys both own Cutco, so so you get that. But um, so, so from 2009,. Um, then the second piece of this is I run and I have a team of seven direct reports. My org chart has over 30 people full timer, salaried, part timers, 1099s and we're all work from home too. Ok, so I think that's an important point because, you know, certainly in modern environment, there's been a certain kind of narrative of, of you know, hey, work from home Is it for everybody?
Speaker 1:Some people need the in-office environment and I absolutely think there's pros and cons. But my point of bringing it up for leadership podcast is that, like I have been duplicatable in that regards, it's a big deal, I think so. I think so because it's not like okay, I've hired 70 people and 30 of them made it. It is our average sticking point. Our average retention is really really good. So, you know, we've learned some things, oftentimes in the School of Hard Knocks and Trial and Error, about how to lead remotely and how to guide and direct and really create people that are autonomous, which I think would be kind of my third bragging point in terms of, like, you know, why should I listen to anything you say? And, uh, I I cynically. I think the answer is you shouldn't. I think right and like, unless it really makes sense and resonates. Yeah, mentioned what did you say? Thought leader Was that?
Speaker 1:the was that the? I mean those two words, man, those, those words make me vomit. Maybe we'll get into that a little bit, but but but yeah. So I would say in my schedule I have probably 66% autonomy of the operations I do or the projects I work on, which means with any three things that I do on you know, an eight or nine or even a 10 hour basis on busy day and busy right, it's because I chose two out of three of those things and I've learned about myself. I can be an operator, I can be a guy who goes in there and runs the machine, but but really where I work like best is is in the space of like go in there, try a thing, test a thing, make a thing, make an MVP, a minimum viable product and then bring people alongside, teach them to understand it, teach them to run it, help them optimize it so they can take the thing and make it way you know, up into the right, better than better than I can do, right, yeah, um, and that's really kind of the last thing I'd say if you were to, you know, be on resume would be um, I have lived kind of these last 15 years. Uh, very fortunately last 15 years, very fortunately, very providentially, very like not in my own doing, but a lifestyle and a quality of life that I would call incrementally and iteratively better.
Speaker 1:I once heard the analogy. I love this analogy. They said if you're a good investor, your stock portfolio, your line of like you know how's it going looks like a guy or a gal on an escalator using a yo-yo, where it's like, you know you have ups, you have downs, but in general you're trending up and to the right, and so I think that would be a pretty good, uh holistic, analogy of of my life as a professional, personal, uh health, uh, you mentioned you know where'd I come from. Uh, we've all had, we've all had those seasons of our career Like what decade of it was yours where you like you're like like I'm just gonna give up this decade to learn the craft. What was that? What was that for?
Speaker 1:you, it was my 30s, your 30s, yeah, your 30s. Aren't you still in your 30s?
Speaker 3:no, unfortunately I'm getting invited back what uh uh.
Speaker 1:I bet you were younger. What was your decade?
Speaker 2:uh, late, late 20s into my mid 30s was my crucible, wow yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was, I was, mine, was like my 20s, that was my like. I am going to, I am going to sacrifice this decade to, to, you know, the altar of, of learning how to add marketplace value. Right, and that was really the. Would you wear the crucible? Yes, right, and that was really the. Would you wear the crucible? Yes, yeah, that's a. That's a better, better description I could ever, better description I could ever give it. And, of course, what comes out of that is is some evidence of, like, I know who I am, uh, I know who I'm not Sure Right, which is, in many cases, like, probably the most important. I know where my gaps are. You know, if we're really lucky, maybe we, you know, meet somebody who says I do cover those, cover those gaps, and I'm fortunate to have you know that, with my, with my lovely bride, kaylee of my gosh 12 years dude, amazing, yeah, so, uh, that is my, I would say, leadership. I'd say that's my leadership resume.
Speaker 2:So let me riff off of this kind of this idea, of the kind of the crucible. And the other thing that piqued my interest is is we I have a heart for and we have a heart for people who are what we call organizational leadership. Right, it's what we do in our families, it's what we do in business, and that is that you fundamentally can't push a button on a microwave and get popcorn, like you're sitting there, you're in front of the grill for 24 hours or you're in front of the crock pot, like results are slow, incremental over time, which requires self-leadership and consistency. And maybe the place that starts is this idea of if you actually want to lead at a high level, you have to be able to get individual results. You have to actually be able to move the needle, and then somehow you have to figure out how to transition from I'm a producer, I move the needle to I can help other people move the needle in a way that I never could by myself.
Speaker 1:What's the name of that law? There was that law right when people are promoted.
Speaker 2:Oh, the Peter Principle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's that? How does that go?
Speaker 3:People are promoted To the highest level of incompetence. Yes, yeah, so they succeed at something.
Speaker 1:They get promoted to something that they're, in essence, incompetent at, and then there's a real risk in doing that I can't even describe how many times I've seen organizations make that mistake, with one with one massive exception, I would say, being Cutco, because Cutco is phenomenal at this Meaning meaning. The motto that I heard, which is a lesser version of the Peter principle, is if you want to tank sales in your organization, take your number one rep and make them the sales manager. Take your number one rep and make them the sales manager. Right, like literally the worst possible thing you could do, because in many cases, like uh, uh, what got you there won't take you there, sure?
Speaker 1:Um, we see this in the business community all the time, with with, you've got the, you've got the startup founder, who oftentimes is a very visionary, charismatic, gregarious personality, and then people are like well, travis Kalanick, former Cutco rep, by the way, travis Kalanick, you can't, you're not the person we need to take Uber to here, so we're going to remove you, you know, and then we're going to put somebody else in there. I mean the amount of organizations that have experienced that are countless now.
Speaker 2:Well, so it's so tempting, right, because you look at something, you see performance, right, and you don't necessarily put, you don't catalog that correctly. And so you see performance and so you want to reward it. Or even they raise their hand and say, hey, I want to do something else. How did you navigate that in your leadership journey?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so fantastic question, because another way of wording it is when you do good enough to create a comfort zone, how do you then step into the new thing and and create mastery and dominance in that new comfort zone? Yeah, and it makes me think about the concept of transferable skills. Okay, so in every little thing we do, I mean, there's always stuff we're picking up Like, there's stuff we're rehearsing or practicing, and presumably what's the saying? Practice makes perfect. Yeah, which you guys know isn't true. What practice makes is practice makes permanent. Yes, yeah, and so I would say you could probably look at every success or failure I've had and taking that leap to the next thing and and saying, okay, between here and here, there was a coach that helped maintain and transfer the confidence and believability of of these skills into the next thing, while simultaneously pointing out the massive, massive, massive gaps that I had going to the new thing. So a perfect example of this would be I was an okay, cutco rep.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:I was an okay Cutco rep. I mean, the thing that I did was I worked really, really, really hard and you know, 19, 20 years old at the time like it's easy to do. And so I get my opportunity to run a summertime office in Bangor, maine. Okay, either of you guys been to Maine before? No, okay, I've been to Maine. Sounds pretty, it's gorgeous, but I want you to go to the pretty part of Maine, like the affluent southern Maine area, and I want you to drive an hour and a half. You come to the capital, augusta, and I want you to drive another hour and a half. Now you're in Bangor, bangor, bangor, you can drive six more hours to go to kid in my family, to go to college.
Speaker 1:So, you know, put a lot of pressure on myself on this knife job thing, right. So I'm in Bangor, maine, and things are not going well. And when I say they're not going well when you run, I mean it's not quite the franchise model. Like Cutco supports their branch and district managers financially in just ridiculous ways. But there is an element of like eventually money runs out, right, like the money I had saved up. And I'll never forget my coach at the time, division manager, ryan Trembler, and you guys know that in sales one of the most important qualities is optimism, right Like yeah, whether you feel like it or not.
Speaker 1:Whether you feel like it or not, and in fact, this is why. This is why, you know, if I ever meet a professional who's admittedly and outwardly like, oh, I'm ADD, I'm like, well, you better be in sales because that's one of the biggest superpowers you can have, right, short celebrations, quick recoveries, like if you cannot forget or not remember the bad things, it's just like okay some will, some won't right, yeah, like the worst thing you can be in sports or in sales is an overthinker, cerebral right Like super smart.
Speaker 1:Right Like in sales is an overthinker, cerebral right, like super smart. Right, like like, oh my gosh, why I'll never get, because you can literally talk your way out of confidence. Well, that's exactly what I did in my little branch office in bangor maine. I couldn't even afford an office in bangor maine. I was in orno, maine, which was like 25 minutes north. It was on main street, I was next to a subway and and it was like this vertical office the landlord had mercy on, like a 20 year old kid I was able to to name drop um, uh, uh, uh.
Speaker 1:My district manager had been like sorority sisters with a friend of a friend who the landlord's daughter. So this was like this was pure charity, that he was doing this for me, right, and it was. I mean, it was sucking. And so Ryan Tremblay calls me up. He's like how's it going? And I proceed to communicate to him in painstaking detail of how it is not going well and I don't remember exactly what I said, because I'm sure it was this elaborate like excuse and this and that, and I was probably blaming the territory or the people that were walking in the door, the leads are weak.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, Coffee's for closers.
Speaker 1:Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, it's like no dude. It's the leads, it's not me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am great, yeah, yeah yeah, like, yeah, it's fantastic, it is fantastic. And, ryan, I'll never forget this. He goes, huh was how he responded. He's like huh. He's like, where's the optimistic Mike Monroe that I'm so well acquainted with? Right, we had had enough history where, right, kind of remind me, hold up the mirror, I go, he's in there somewhere, right, but he's like, well, let me put it to you this way and what he proceeded to do was, uh, uh, communicate a narrative, with every single point that he had or that I had given him, as to why I can't to foretell and create this narrative of why this was gonna be like the best thing and the best reason ever, of why this happened, like this, and here's why that's good, and this, and here's why that's good, and this, and here's why that's good and this, and here's why that's good. And then he delivered the punchline of the whole thing. It was this moment of silence and I'm like, whoa, and he goes, isn't more?
Speaker 2:fun to think like that.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, he's like all right, dude, I got to go like go do something, and, by the way, he was probably like he could have been taking a dump for all I know, like walk in between, like his office was popping doing like a hundred thousand dollar weeks, which is really good, and I was, you know, a hundred dollars and change, right, not a hundred thousand, a hundred dollars and change, which is which is not a lot. But that was such a profound experience for me that became one of the first moments where, you know, before I had a cell phone, before I had any of these things, I wrote that down. Isn't it more fun to think like that? And it was one of the first post-it notes that I put up and I read that every day. And it was a reminder that one of the transferable skills that Vector and Cutco taught me was, whether you think you can or you can't, you're right, see the positive in every situation. And I'd been so good about that as a sales representative and now, here I was, I'd kind of forgotten that and sometimes in those moments like it really helps to have that coach to remind you of that Sure, and then, once I was repaired mentally, now he can take me to a you of that, sure, and then, once I was repaired mentally, now he can take me to a place of like, okay, let's talk about why you're sucking at this particular function of the interview. Like I was finally in a place I could receive, in a place I could listen and and sometimes, you know, heavy is the head that wears the crown right like, like I love.
Speaker 1:Being a Northeast guy, I'm a huge Boston sports fan. So I saw, I saw an interview with Joe Mazzulla, the head coach of the Boston Celtics, and if you're not, if anybody in your audience isn't an NBA fan, the idea is, on the Boston Celtics number one guy, jason Tatum, like super, all-star, super stud, and this guy is mercilessly scrutinized prior to this last year because it's like you'll never be a Celtic great if you can't win a championship. You get so far you disappear in big games. Why aren't the three-pointers connecting when it matters most? Like just constant, constant, like grading and gritting and and I loved it because, um, in the documentary they were, they were. You could hear the interview.
Speaker 1:He goes. You know, how do you feel about the fact Coach Joe right, got to have the coach, got to ask the coach? How do you feel about the fact that Jason Tatum has to endure these horrifically unfair double standards. And Missoula goes, he gets to. He gets to. This is what he wants, like this is what he signed up for. He signed up for hard, like he signed up. If you want to be one of the greatest, you have to be willing to do that and pay the price of greatness. And so I think, going back to your original question of how does somebody make the leap from I'm good at this, now I go here.
Speaker 1:I mean, on one hand, it's just the stubbornness to get through the suck yeah right the crucible yeah, the crucible, like like you probably have a similar story both you guys probably have a similar story like who was the ryan trembler in your life when you guys were going through the ish? Like who was that?
Speaker 2:bob spooner. Yeah, yeah, I'm a guy named Cody Right, like it's just. You know, the guy who's there and he listens, listens with love, but at the same time it's like I love you and I'm not willing to allow you to stay here.
Speaker 1:I love you and I'm not allowing you to stay here. Yeah, and that is that. Bob too, bob Spooner.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was complaining about my boss and he was a peer to my boss and he finally just told me. He said, chase, she's not your problem, you're your problem. Yeah, and he was dead, dead spot on Right and he got me out of that space of excuse, making Right Similar to your story. Yeah, but it was because he wanted to move me forward, not because he just wanted to point out the fact that my thinking was stinking Right, which it was, and and he cared enough to to say it rather than just pretend, like you know, everything I was saying was fine when it wasn't right.
Speaker 1:He cared yeah, that's so interesting because none of those particular things are overly profound or particularly found. Like, isn't it more fun to think like that? But but when it comes to like, you know the lights are down and and like, right, like you just hear the thing at the exact moment you need it, right, um, I think that, uh, uh, I think that's probably one of the reasons why I advocate and why I have, personally, any time I'm making a leap from good at this to new thing with a bigger opportunity, I've always, I've always, uh, I've always had a coach. Sure, sure, I've always either systemically had one or paid for somebody. Yeah, I remember when I first started I had left vector management.
Speaker 1:After 10 years in the field as a vector manager, by the way, I'd gone from a branch manager who was awful 80% of the time to having a really good end, and the end was so good that it kind of made up. And also, how people always remember, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. People really remember that. And so next following year, I got a choice territory as a junior in college and so now I had competence, sure, right, like, sometimes you just have to get through. I had competence. Sure Right, like sometimes you just have to get through. I had confidence and we just went in there and just annihilated everybody that summer. I mean it was one of the most fun Like I was in. I was at weddings of the people who were my college student. I'm old enough now where I got to right. Like some of them have kids. Most of the kids are named after me Right.
Speaker 2:And so Right Even the girls. What's her?
Speaker 1:name Michael Monroe.
Speaker 2:It's like no, that's her first name. We pronounce it like Mikkel, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, she likes being called, you know, eminem or something, right? So, anyway, so I I eventually rose to the top of, to the top of now I'm a year round manager. Now I'm a good year round manager. Now I'm a-round manager putting out other offices. Now I'm you know, there's an upper manager position at Vector, called division manager. I'm in charge of Southern New England three states, 3.2 million people. We have 10 offices now. So not only am I crushing my pilot office, but I'm also reproducing.
Speaker 1:And this was before the age of 30. And this was the. That was the 10 years of dedication to learn the profession. And then, when that season of life transitioned, now, all of a sudden, I found myself in a whole new world. I found myself not in the sales side of things, but I found myself in the marketing side of things.
Speaker 1:I was so intrigued by the fact, I mean, digital marketing. This was digital marketing. Uh, it wasn't new, but it was. It was, you know, when I started as a digital marketer in 2008,. It was still like, like they didn't have degrees in it yet, right, like the idea of a digital marketing agency wasn't a thing. It was just.
Speaker 1:You were a marketing agency, you were an agency of record, an aor right, like that's how the industry was, and so and so here was this guy, not even 30 years old yet, who was just wildly intrigued by the fact that, if he could put words together in the right combination and could project these words on a screen and then get that screen in front of the right person at the right time, like the thought was, like you could make money in your sleep, like you can make money on, like this, this sales letter, right, right, was, was, and, by the way, that you know know the understanding of what marketing was back then is not is. My understanding has deeply evolved, you know, in the last 15, 16 years since then, but that was kind of the, that was the attractive promise, that was the thing that that pulled it in. So um quickly found out how bad I sucked at that. The transferable skill there, though, was at. For 10 years plus, I was very good as a speechwriter.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So I could public speak. So when I made the jump to copywriting which is just the fancy words for people, that can put persuasive words on paper to get people to do some type of action right, when I made that jump, there was some real. There was some real transferable skills like how to tell stories, but there was no inherent knowledge of of how to, how to write. Like write well, yeah, like write for, write for engagement. So, through serendipitous and providential relationships, I met a guy named Charles Orlando, my first author that I got to really, really, really roll up sleeves with, and Charles wrote the bestselling book the Problem with Women is Men. The whole thing is fantastic. Even as a married dude, I'll still pull it out and rewrite Like just really, really, really, really good. And he said something to me that was so important. He said universally you got to write through the suck, like sucking at something is the first step to be sort of good at something. And and what I learned through working with him and in that experience, like if you were to ask me what are the, what are the three moments when people really really really need a coach? Um, one thing is when they're learning a profession, so so they go from. They go from I'm good at the thing to now I'm doing a new thing. You need somebody to oversee or overlook or pour into or encourage or remind or just give you those little idioms of wisdom. Yeah Right, like you got to have a profession coach, because you guys, I mean we're all like, we're all in some degree in the coaching industry and and what we're what we're selling in the coaching industry and training industry is, is one very, very simple thing, or selling is we're selling consistency.
Speaker 1:Sure, like there's there's there's three kind of layers of transformation. Layer one is, um, what I know. So it's like, okay, um, I'll use a, I'll use an example that that you know. I mean, I can certainly relate to it. It's like, okay, I need to eat, uh, this many grams of fiber per day. I need to eat more veggies. I don't have enough veggies. I need to eat my protein first. That's going to help my blood sugar. You know start protein and I need to. You know, drink. You know 128 ounces or whatever. You know water or whatnot. Right, like, intellectually, it's very easy to know.
Speaker 1:The second layer of transformation is then doing it right. So now I take what I know and this is what I quickly found about kind of the fool's gold of marketing was I could create marketing that would sell a thing, oftentimes an online course or a piece of content. Back then it was so easy to make money in content because there wasn't a lot of people doing it. So it's like, you know, just name your course something tantalizing, have a really long, long, long, long long sales letter and then, you know, set your cell phone to ding, ding, ding every time someone makes an order and you know, now you're out with your girlfriend. It's like, oh, did that right Now you're, now you're, you know, the coolest guy ever.
Speaker 1:But that didn't result in transformation, because once people get information, the next thing is like, okay, how do I apply that in my circumstance and tell me if you guys have found this to be true? I mean, I certainly have, but where knowing what to do can be asynchronous? Is that I think I'm getting these words right? Is that where, like, I can watch videos and I don't reply to the video, I can just absorb the information?
Speaker 2:and then is synchronous learning. I can go back and forth with somebody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's like a, there's a um, a relationship yeah, yeah, so that learn that in one way one, one direction flow, yeah that's asynchronous, right, so okay, so so I can learn, I can sell online courses all day long and there is a small percentage of people that can take information, figure it out and then go into this like power place of like.
Speaker 2:OK, I read that book.
Speaker 1:Now I have atomic habits or whatever. Right, right, right Like, ok leaders, you know eat, you know last Got it. I'll never eat first, right Like, and all of a sudden they're off to the races. But most of humanity isn't like that, because most of most people have nuanced situations and so, in order to be able to get it right, it's really helpful for me, and I can't even count how many nutrition coaches fitness know my peak weight of 230 pounds to now at 40, almost 44, like less than my high school weight. Right Like. I've had a lot, and that's because of the ability to be able to be like okay. So I hate most vegetables. How do I cook them? How do I, in my situation, right Like, okay, okra's out like screw like, okra's gross like unless you fry it which kind?
Speaker 3:of defeats or pickle it yeah, yeah you can pickle okra, so good, money side. Note, different topic, but yeah, you'll love it. See story, true story.
Speaker 1:I love synchronous yeah, yeah, yeah, this guy had this secret all along, and now right okay.
Speaker 2:So let me kind kind of just want to wrap my head around what you're saying, right? So if we're talking about organizational leadership, we're talking about moving people forward. Wait, you're trying to bring it back.
Speaker 1:Don't bring it back yet this is important because this is totally going to like unlock organizational leadership, right, so it's what to do. Then it's how to do it, right, okay, so it's the iteration and getting it right, and then the last thing is doing it daily and doing it consistently. Yeah, and? And the idea that this goes to organizational leadership is is it matches exactly how most people manage, but most people manage in only one direction they manage activity, they manage hours and they manage results. Got it, which are really important things, but all that is is level one. That's just what to do. Got it, that's just what to do. So, what to do, and I'm a manager. That's great.
Speaker 1:We need managers, sure, and there's a lot of people in the population that are not growth mindset, that are not driven by wild curiosity, and they need management and need to be told what to do. But the next level of leadership, which is the middle rung here, is not just what to do, but now passing that and helping develop the understanding of empowering this person to really be able to do it on their own. Got it? So I mean, for example, parenting, like the goal is to have children that are better than us. Sure, and you know, part of that means let's teach them everything I know, which oftentimes backfires unless you guys know something. I don't right, like, like, because my kids love hearing from me. They want to know, like, dad, tell me how to do everything. My wife too. Kaylee's like wow, that's so profound.
Speaker 2:You guys aren't really yeah, I'm like, wow, that's new to me. Let's transition my book promotion.
Speaker 1:How that works the point being that that most, most, uh, a lot of leaders don't want to invest the time in, in creating people that can truly be autonomous why is that?
Speaker 3:yeah, oh, my god, I think you're right, by the way, like they it. Because it's harder, it takes longer, you start investing the time. But why is it that leaders, especially young leaders, want to avoid the time it takes to truly develop somebody?
Speaker 1:yeah, two reasons. Number one is because it does take a lot of time, right, like, to get people to a place of leadership is, uh, I do you watch, uh we do, and then you do I watch, and there's conversations that happen between every single one of those things. Right, yeah, and the problem is, you can only have those conversations if you have real mastery over what it is that you're trying to get. So the analogy I'll look at this. I know it's a conversation about leadership, but the analogy I'll make is with artificial intelligence about leadership, but, but the analogy I'll make is with artificial intelligence. What generative artificial intelligence is teaching people right now is that they have no idea how to describe what they're looking for, because they have no idea how to put into words the very tactical things of of, yeah, like of what it is that that they need. And leaders are the same exact way. Like, what do you mean? You don't understand how many times you got to watch this when I was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Here's how I know. Nobody, nobody taught me it is.
Speaker 1:It's really easy for me to be like you just get up there and give a keynote speech, but like, but like, if I'm trying to break it down for somebody, I have to be able to teach it at the level of okay. So when you ask the audience a rhetorical question what you're going to do, you're going to give them two options and you're going to give the second option with a little greater emphasis and intonation. So that way the audience replies to you and now they're a hundred percent with you and you're on the same page. So you're not, you're not going to just ask an open-ended question. Now you look stupid and then you answer it. You got to.
Speaker 1:You know what's the most powerful form of advertising, you know, is it, is it traditional media or is it word of mouth? Word of mouth, right, like most people don't speak or think at that level of granularity because, quite candidly, it's really hard to read the ingredients from inside the box. Yeah, so I think that's one of the really really, really big reasons. So I think that's one of the really, really really big reasons. And then the other big reason is I'm convinced there's just not a lot of really really good modeling when it comes to how to actually be that person.
Speaker 1:So my seven directs manage a lot of their directs exactly how I manage them when you know they show up with a question, you know they show up to our one-on-one, they have the mic list. It's like keep a mic list. If I'm driving the conversation, you're not driving the conversation, then what do I need you for? Like, you show up with the mic list right and early on in the relationship. It starts with with with they have a problem, right, they have a monkey. I uh, I forget who who did that, maybe it was Ramsey and the entree leader but it's like they come in and then they like the monkey jumps off their back and jumps on your desk and and a lot of leaders, you know, just like a lot of parents, it's like, oh, we solve your problem for you, sure, let me save you. But it's like, no, we're going to take him back, take her back. Like this is this is your monkeys, yeah.
Speaker 1:My two favorite phrases what do you think and what do you suggest. And when I was a young leader, what I used to think was was that there was only one level of delegation, was that there was only one level of delegation. And people that think like that very quickly realize that delegation is a terrible, time-sucking, energy-resent-building opportunity. Because if I delegate to somebody and they suck at it which they will then all the lesson I'm getting is I'll never delegate again, I'm just going to do it myself.
Speaker 3:Well, one of the things I hear you saying, Mike, which I think is a legitimate challenge in leadership, is my hallucination is is that if you've gotten into a position of leadership in part, it's because you're actually pretty good at solving problems.
Speaker 2:Yes, in part, right Along with some other skills. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like, if you're great at solving problems, chances are you end up in some sort of leadership. People have problems, businesses have problems. I'm here to. That's right. And then, all of a sudden, because you're in a leadership position or because you've earned this respect from them, they bring you their problems. They're monkeys right, as you put it, and it's very easy to continue being good at what you're already good at, which is solving the problem, taking on the monkey right, like until you learn a new skill, which is how do I coach, teach, guide, ask the right question that allows this person to solve their own problem, which is actually leadership. If you bring me a problem and I solve it, I'm actually not leading you at all. I'm just solving your problem, which I happen to be good at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a leader, right and, by the way, I'm making you codependent on me or dependent on me, yeah, in certain cases, certain cases I'm neutering you which is actually the third, the opposite of developing them. Exactly.
Speaker 2:And I'm feeling good about myself because I'm needed. Yeah, man.
Speaker 3:I'm playing whack-a-mole all day at something I'm good at solving problems solving other people's problems and I can go home at night and actually feel like what a day, right, like I crushed it.
Speaker 1:The next one is hey, look into this for me, then give me your advice. Look into this for me, give me your advice and I'll decide. By the way, that's one of the most simple, best ways to leverage anything. So one of the things I do I'm a chronic book buyer, course buyer Like teach me all the things. I don't have time for all the things.
Speaker 1:So nothing I love more than being like okay, you're going to take, hey, you, right here, you're going to listen to these five podcast episodes. You're going to take this course, you're going to do this, give me your notes and then you're going to teach this to me. They're looking into it for me, right, yeah. And then, as I get more advanced, maybe they're deciding between software vendors. Like, go, do calls with this person, this person, this person, we're going to tweak our CRM, we need this or that, and I need you to give me your advice, right. Then there is explore, decide and check back with me. So, so that's like the real, like when they make the, when they get decision-making power. That's like that's when you've kind of turned the corner, right. Like huge, uh, explore and decide within these limits.
Speaker 1:I just had this conversation two days ago. We're doing a new social listening software and it's like all right, how much is our old one? What do we hate about it? Okay, it doesn't include. What do you mean? They're not monitoring YouTube comments. That's the dumbest thing ever. Okay, here's our new. You know, stephanie, decide within these limits and then go, and then the last level of delegation is just get it done Exactly.
Speaker 2:Like, just don't like, yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I trust you. I trust you and so many people treat delegation like it should be. I trust you without having to do the work of getting to the point of you're worthy and deserving of trust. And because, because our human nature and our tendency is just to repeat the sins of the father, which is essentially keep doing whatever was modeled right Like I'm going to be as good or as bad as the person that kind of brought me up through the crucible during those real formative years, and boy was I lucky that I had people who stewarded me.
Speaker 1:Well, which is really the last level of of when it comes to consistency, is I'm kind of paralleling the journey of of managing self to managing organizationally. So you've got management, you've got leadership, and then stewardship is really like the pinnacle of of like and this is hard because stewardship is when you take on not only the person's thinking but you really take on the mantra of how can I be a blessing for this person in whatever trajectory they have? Like it really comes down to the belief of of. You know, god is using me in this moment, right here, to to be a blessing and to give everything I can to this person and as I pour into them.
Speaker 1:Like it's easy to love your people, isn't it? Yeah, which is why it sucks stewarding people, because in many cases, most organizations have to live in a place of catch and release and and your most talented people always leave first because they can, because they can, yeah, because they can, and so and so, the, the, the pain of stewardship. And I wasn't. I wasn't a good steward when I was in my, even when I was a good division manager managing a bunch of states, for I was not a, I was not at a place of stewardship yet, yeah, like it was, it was every time somebody you love quit or turned on you, right because 1099s, and emotional, like I mean, it was like right, like oh, yeah yeah, finish him right.
Speaker 3:Like you, you literally are demonstrating your heart getting ripped out, and I would argue that you're underplaying how painful this actually is so am I right here so painful, like.
Speaker 3:So I want to, I want to stay on this for a minute because you know someone's going to listen to this podcast and be like I just don't want to do this anymore because I keep losing my best people or I train them and then they start getting some success and they go to a competitor or something of that nature, something we've all experienced, right, yeah, so like, how do we? How do we get past the pain of that? Or how do we work through the suck of that to get on the other side of going through leadership to becoming a good steward?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question. And the answer is we talked about having a profession coach, someone who can come along with you in your profession, and the answer is the pain never goes away. But just like when you burn your hand on a stove, if you were to put your hand back on the stove, it wouldn't burn as much. Right, there's the profession coach. I'm also a big, huge advocate of a process coach, somebody I hire who is mastery of a certain thing that is going to help me install checks and balances. So, so, the first thing somebody comes to me. If someone's like hey, I'm not, you can tell you're stewarding. Well, by the way, uh, uh, uh. If, if someone involves you deeply in there, I'm, I'm thinking of changing careers, or I'm leaving, or I have to go, or or right, like, like. If you're involved in that life-changing process like mike, can I talk to his friend mike, not boss mike, right now?
Speaker 2:yeah, like and that by the way.
Speaker 1:that's not always, you don't always want that's not fun. That's not an invitation for everybody to tell me their problems, which you know I'm not. I'm not great at that role. That's not stewardship. But but if someone is going to me, that role they're involving me versus informing me Right when it's just like hey, I'm, I'm, I'm going somewhere else. This is a two weeks notice or four weeks notice or just ghost, right, like people, just ghost, like that's a thing and, by the way, that's a thing to endure, right. But a process coach is going to say, okay, let's look at the process of events and let's look at the formula that created that result.
Speaker 1:So the idea of a development pipeline is really a lot of what we're talking about, everything from delegation to what's the career path thing, do you? Susan Drum, one of my process coaches, taught me about running. You guys know exit interviews, right? Sure, I mean, her whole thing is like if you're running an exit interview, you're interviewing them way too late. So she was the first person I ever heard. I know a lot of people say this now, but she was the one who taught me how to run stay interviews. Oh yeah, and stay interviews are simply like, let's sit down with you. Let's career path. Let me tell you what could be an opportunity for you, what can't be an opportunity for you. Like, I work with a lot of really talented people that I pay hourly and there's not full-time salaried positions for everybody. So, as we career path, we have to, and we draw it out.
Speaker 1:When you get to this point, you're going to be on the cusp of potentially outgrowing the organization, and so one path is this way. One path is this way. One path is this way. Path is this way. One path is this way. One path is this way.
Speaker 1:When you actually systematically build into the process, catch and release. Now, all of a sudden, that becomes a recruiting tool, right, and? And that whole adage of of if you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, it's yours, if it doesn't, it was never yours to begin with. Like that's kind of what really really really helped me, help me flip that switch, and so, um, but I don't, I don't want to limit process to just.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're talking about leadership development and I think everybody should have, everybody should be able to articulate what is your leadership development process, and I also think people should be able to articulate a good leader. Can I articulate who is in your leadership development pipeline? One of the things we've talked about off camera, which I'm a huge advocate of, is is jumping rank, and so I'm not talking about the cheesy like open door policy I'm talking about. I'm talking about I'm here. I've got direct reports here. They have people that they are raising up because they're modeling me Right and I need to know who these superstars are and I need to create systematic surface area with them. It might be a once a month call, it might be hey, we're going to work on a project together. It might be. Let's pull you into this conversation and into the discussion and let's create a situation where you know the cliche at the end of the meeting, where it's like okay, great, meeting everybody.
Speaker 1:Hey, you know, alyssa, what do you think? Like be candid, right, yeah, and some organizations now Alyssa's candid and they're like, yeah, speaker, totally spoken to, that wasn't, we weren't serious about that right, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And then the other. You know. Now Alyssa says the thing where it's like wait what? Hold on, guys, everybody sit back down. We got to finish this. Okay, say what you said again, all right? Hey, do you have the otter notes? Let's look right, like that happened recently with a gal named Alyssa. It's a situation of if we're not, if we're not, if we don't know who's in our pipeline and we just assume that it is our directs, or we don't have somebody ready in the queue, or we don't have a wish list. I have a wish list of people that I don't know how, I don't know when, I don't know in what capacity, but I really want to work with these people one day on something. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm not just talking about a dream 100.
Speaker 1:Like, uh, uh I think I saw Brunson is one of your books down here he gets, he gets ascribed to that, even though I don't think that was purely his concept. But but, the point being, like, I want to have my dream hundred two of who I want to partner with and what I want to do and who can be my referral partners and so forth. But but I want to make sure that, like I'm always thinking talent first, yeah, which you know summarized beautifully by the book titled by Ben and Dan Ben Hardy, dan Sullivan, who, not how. Yeah, like when you find the right who's the who's the right, who's, bring the how's yeah, like they will solve the problems.
Speaker 3:I hope you enjoyed that time with Mike Monroe. We have more to come from Mike in episode three, part two of our interview with him. Don't miss it. Thanks for listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast. If this episode inspired you, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with a fellow leader. For more resources, you can go to SherpaConsultingGroupcom. Remember that leadership is a journey. Every step you take matters. Keep stepping. We'll see you next time.