Sherpa Leadership Podcast
Welcome to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast, where we help you climb higher in life and leadership. Whether you’re an entrepreneur, business owner, or leading a team, this podcast is designed to give you practical leadership tools, frameworks, and real-world insights to help you grow.
Sherpa Leadership Podcast
Episode 3 - When Gifting Becomes a Legacy: Mike Monroe's Story of Loss and Leadership - Part Two
"I don't take advice from people that I wouldn't switch places with." This powerful declaration from Mike Monroe sets the tone for a conversation that cuts through typical leadership platitudes and reaches into the heart of what truly drives success: relationships.
Mike explores the transformative concept of the Scout Mindset versus the Soldier Mindset, drawing from Julia Galef's groundbreaking work. A scout approaches problems seeking truth and mapping reality accurately, while a soldier defends existing positions regardless of evidence. Almost instinctively, most leaders default to the soldier mentality, particularly when dealing with smaller projects where they feel comfortable claiming expertise. This tendency directly connects to what Mike calls "Bike Shed Theory" – our human propensity to spend disproportionate time discussing simple aspects of complex problems because they feel more accessible.
The discussion takes a profound turn as Mike vulnerably shares his experience navigating leadership through the sudden loss of his friend and business partner John Ruhlin, founder of Giftology. What emerges is a poignant testament to preparation meeting providence. Years before Ruhlin's passing, Mike had encouraged him to build aspects of the business that were "JNN" – John Not Needed – creating systems and developing leaders who could carry the mission forward. This foresight proved crucial in preserving John's legacy and continuing his work.
Throughout the conversation, Mike distinguishes between different types of coaching relationships – process coaches who install specific systems, project coaches who remove bottlenecks, and professional coaches who provide broader guidance. Each serves a unique function in leadership development, reinforcing his principle of selective learning: only taking advice from people whose position you'd genuinely consider trading for your own.
Ready to transform how you think about business relationships? Listen now to discover why relationships take you places that marketing, sales, and management simply cannot – and how to build connections that deliver infinite returns beyond conventional ROI.
Here’s those additional resources from today’s episode:
The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don't
I don't take advice from people that I wouldn't switch places with Relationships. Take you places that marketing can't it. Takes you places that sales can't Relationships. Take you places that management can't Relationships. Take you places that contracts, threats and fears and quotas and all the things and incentives and do this, get that kind of programs, all those things, yeah, relationships jump them all.
Reed Moore:You're listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast, your guide to climbing higher in life and leadership. I'm Reid Moore and, alongside Chase Williams, we're here to help you break through obstacles, scale your potential and lead with greater clarity and purpose. Hey leaders, welcome back to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast. I'm Reed Moore, here with Chase Williams. We're here to help you climb higher in life and leadership. We want to introduce a great friend of ours. His name is Mike Monroe and this is episode two, a two-part series with Mike Monroe. Hopefully you enjoy it.
Reed Moore:Like in philosophy, there's this idea of a false dichotomy, right, and it shows up in marriages, shows up in relationships, right, like, a marriage is struggling and it's like commit to death, right, like, just like, no conversations, just, or like we're out, and there's all of these gradients in between.
Reed Moore:And just thinking about, like, my own immaturity in leadership, where there's there's this, um, there's this tendency to, uh, to either like, I will do it or I will just dump it. Right, it's like here's, here's six gradients, and when we show up as immature people developers, I'll take responsibility. When I show up as an immature people developer, um, I have the tendency just to dump, right, like, and then other people have this tendency just to hold on. You know, you know, pry this out of my cold dead hands. And I love what you're saying, because there's this process where I'm going to take people from here to here and there's all of these stop goes, teaching moments, opportunities to correct before the cost is extravagantly high for a failure. How did you practically have you always just done that? Or how did you practically figure out? Here's how I develop people.
Michael Monroe:Well, I'll go back to coaching, because so much of my coaching journey has been informed and spoken into by people that demonstrated, demonstrated mastery. So when I hire a process coach, I mean this is a uh sounds a little bit of a cynical kind of rule, but I, I, uh, I don't take advice from people that I wouldn't switch places with, okay, so. So I'm not saying there aren't like great, like out of shape trainers, because there are, but mostly, and that's tough, and, by the way, and that's tough, and also training is such a silly thing, because training is the exact example of what we're talking about earlier, right, where it's like oh, you have a six pack, you're going to be a trainer, and it's like this person is is not qualified, right, like Genetically gifted yeah is is not qualified, right?
Michael Monroe:like genetically gifted, yeah. Like like that is indeed a thing, right? Like if you look at the diet of some professional athletes, on one hand, yeah, they burn a lot of calories. On the other hand, I couldn't eat that, and like I go do three iron men tomorrow and I would probably not be able to finish all those. You know, insert food here, right, sure? So? So the idea of of um installing the right process and putting that in place is is to be really, really, really merciless about who I'm going to take advice from, um, and so I actually haven't had a leadership coach very recently, but what I have had is is process coaches. In fact, I just hired one, we just hired one now. His name is Coach Mark Mark Cosiglow, and Mark is probably the greatest sales pipeline architect I've ever heard speak and ever heard from, and it it was again providential and serendipitous how this happened.
Michael Monroe:I, you know, one of those I can't sleep nights, so I listened to a podcast and, before I know it, I'm on his LinkedIn and I'm reading every post he's ever read, and then I'm like writing down and taking notes and putting them in my second brain and like I'm just, I'm just, you know, poor Kaylee's over here. Just you know, poor Kaylee's over here. It's one in the morning. I connect with the guy and I'm like, hey, just so, you know, you know, just so, you're the smartest dude I've ever heard on this particular topic, right, and, and you know, hopefully it connects with me back and, providentially, not only do you connect with me back, but he's like I'm not trying to sell you, but I have an opening in, like I don't know. I'm like, oh right, and so the power of that is is a process coach in most cases.
Michael Monroe:Like I hired Mark, I already know his end date. Like I hired him for a very specific period of time, yeah, which, which creates an urgency to make sure we get everything we need out of the process, and we're only trying to create this one outcome. And we're only trying to create this one outcome. And the outcome is do I know what to do? Do we do it right and can I do it consistently? Yeah, okay, this could go 12 months. Like you're not going to dump me if you, you know he's launching another company. It's going to be meteoric and and and so, um, but, uh, but I think I've got, I think.
Michael Monroe:I got them on the hook for a year here, but that's really, really, really important to have that. Yeah and and one of the things using your dichotomy mechanism uh, I still do the. I still do what I talked about with Ryan. Where isn't it more fun to think like that? I still have things that I post, so the board in my office I still have things that I want to look up and see, and I'm fortunate now because we love you, Dad, right, Like all the things are up there too.
Michael Monroe:I've got the kid's wall, but one of the things that I've had there recently written up is both can be true, yeah, and, and this is not one of the things that really, really terrifies me, um, societally it terrifies is a strong word, but but one of the things I'm conscientious of society is is, uh, uh, this tribalism that has occurred Very, very polarized, Very polarized, very over here and over here. And if you're a believer and proponent of both can be true, two things are true at the same time. Then what you do is you inherently invite yourself to live in the messy middle, which means you either don't share your opinion with either of these groups or you're surrounded by the people at these groups and you just have to not let it affect you, you know, emotionally, spiritually, relationally, which is which is, you know, kind of the order of the day. Everybody, everybody knows, but, um, it is to navigate the nuance of leadership. It takes a, it takes a scout mindset, what's?
Chase Williams:a scout mindset?
Michael Monroe:Yeah, I love that you asked because I'm going to do a little commercial for, for for this book here. So the scout mindset is. It's a book by Julia Galef. The Scout Mindset is a book by Julia Galef and for somebody who has project autonomy and who's constantly working and failing forward as he works on project, the Scout Mindset is probably one of the most important things I think anybody in leadership can have. The idea is there is a scout and what a scout's principal function is to do is to go map the land. So take the binoculars, look at the map. Map is the mountain range where I said it was. Oh, this river actually tucks around here and turns into a little pond. The pond's not on the map.
Michael Monroe:The scout deals in truth and deals in facts, and so a scout mindset is somebody who is deeply committed to interrogating reality and discovering truth, not what they want to be true, which is a struggle of an innovator who so badly, when they launch a program, wants it to be like, and it can tell a narrative. Here's why this is going to work. Yeah, right, like that's part of the energy behind. Let's do this. Unfortunately, most people in leadership approach the world with a soldier mindset, and a soldier mindset, which you could probably already surmise, is the idea of I'm going to defend my thinking, my idea, what I believe, oh, what I believe, and the soldier mindset is really not conducive for it. It can't coexist with great leadership.
Reed Moore:Makes sense right, and we've had this conversation. Chase is an outstanding person to run ideas by, and part of the reason is that when you get high on your own supply, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly it when you sniff your own exhaust.
Chase Williams:Yeah, I call it when I talk about influencers, I'm like, oh, this guy, this guy licks his own lollipop all day long right everything he says is genius yeah, yeah, he's self-licking ice cream cones.
Michael Monroe:Yeah, yeah, yeah all.
Chase Williams:Joking aside, we can all end up there oh my gosh, yeah, right well because there's there's the intention.
Reed Moore:No, because there's this tension like if I actually care about this, I should be able to get passionate enough to be able to push this out there.
Chase Williams:Yeah, but man, if I protect it from reality, there's no way the marketplace is not going to just crush it at significantly higher expense yeah, not to mention, I think, when you're, when you're succeeding through others, right, like the, the goal is you would earn the right to interrogate somebody's current reality in a loving way. Yeah, because, like you said before, like if I care enough to not let you stay where you're at and you want something different out of life or result, then hopefully I've earned the right to be a scout for you and interrogate your current reality, your current excuses, your current way of thinking, your current habits, so that I can demonstrate that there might be a better way, there might be a different truth that leads you where you want to go, right I and I, by the way, both you articulated that so much better that I did uh, and what I find you guys familiar with bike shed theory.
Michael Monroe:Well, this is great, so so one of my directs taught me this. It was so good. He's like, um, he's like I want you, we're going into a meeting. He's like I want you to watch what I perceive to be the dynamics of this meeting. I wasn't briefed, I wasn't, I wasn't sure of of, by the way, to protect, to protect the uh, uh, the uh, the guilty. This was not a vector Cutco meeting.
Reed Moore:This is a different this is a different.
Michael Monroe:You're like, wait a minute, what? So I'm going into this meeting it's a board meeting, of the thing and and he's like, uh, this is going to be a bike shed meeting. I'm like, what do you mean? He goes um.
Michael Monroe:The theory of bike shed is that if you bring a bunch of people together around a conference table and and their job is to talk about in design they've got four hours to design a nuclear power plant they're going to spend three and a half hours talking about the little bike shed that goes on the side of the nuclear power plant where employees ride their bike and where can they park? It's like, no, we need a slanted roof, but what if it rains? Well, we live in a windy area. Do we need? Right, like they're gonna, not the important thing, not the this, not the stuff that requires they're gonna focus on on on what they, what they really really really like insignificant crap, right, yeah? And so the idea of bike shed theory is that, uh, when you get people uh thinking and focused on on the stuff that doesn't matter, you lose like you lose and you lose big. The tie-in is that in uh moments of uh simplicity, small moments, project moments is when we tend to assume the most amount of extra of expertise. So so a great example as a marketer. It's like everybody has an opinion on marketing because everybody's exposed to marketing, just like everybody has an opinion on a bike shed because they can visualize a bike shed and understand a bike shed, even though they have no concept of what a nuclear power plant could be or should be.
Michael Monroe:And so I find that the more finite and smaller the project, the more I tend to dissolve to soldier mindset. It was easy to be a student when I, when Charles Orlando was teaching me how to be a writer, or or the fellow I hired after that with with David Perel, with Rite of Passage, who just blew my mind with what he taught me because I knew I was going into that space of being a student. But when I have a project or a thing, a small thing, it's easy to show up with a very loud, large opinion. So this is why I hire a I mean I talked about a profession coach, we talked about a process coach. Why hire a project coach?
Michael Monroe:And a project's coach number one job is to seek, annihilate, destroy the bottleneck things that are going to keep me from succeeding in this project Got it. So, for instance, for instance, we're in the middle of a book launch and our project coach is this incredible butt kicking gal named Amber Vilhauer and, by the way, I'm a I've put in my 10,000 hours of marketing. I've I've forgotten more about book marketing than than most people will ever care to know, right? And so now I show up with Amber and I know I'm going to show up to Amber this way, thinking okay, we should do this and this and this and this and this and this, and, and in certain cases where like lockstep, and in other cases it's like she is capable, she has the authority, competence and track record. I can't tell you how many best sellers, how many people have hired her to write like yeah to be like you're wrong.
Michael Monroe:Here's why which she does very kindly uh, some project coaches, like you know, the Ironman coach it's a project, right, like I'm going to hire, right, I mean you've done an Ironman. Like it makes a lot of sense why people hire an Ironman coach, right. And so that's the important thing. You have to understand that when, whatever your next obstacle or whatever the next thing you're building is, whatever the next thing that you have to tackle, you have to match. You have to match the right type of person, the right type of expertise. It's got to be synchronous, right. It's got to be like, if you're one of the one percent that can do it with information, read the book and then show up and ace the test like that's awesome, but like it's, it's you're going to need.
Reed Moore:You're going to need so much more than that man I love that, um, okay, so let me take the conversation in a different direction. Um, as Somebody who's in organizational leadership, you're leading for a long period of time, which means you're going to experience at some point, at multiple points, exceptional levels of pain. That's going to be pain from relationships, that's going to be pain from failure, that's going to be pain from personal, from professional fill in the blank. And you have to still move things forward, because if you don't, everything gets worse Right, and you have to be able to move things forward because if you don't, everything gets worse right, and you have to be able to move people forward. Walk me through a season of life where you have had to navigate exceptional pain and still performed and and hopefully not come out the other side with too much residue from it yeah.
Michael Monroe:So, uh, uh, and this is this, this is. You know, I had a, I had a feeling you were going here cause you guys have been, you know my shoulders to cry on for. For you know what we and I'm going to say we, because it feels really, really, really unfair uh, for me to say, just me, because you know, reeling from this tragedy, that that I'll, that, I'll share and I'll describe here. It's, it's, uh, uh, this is. I mean this was probably one of the most tragic, terrible, uh, I mean like, moments of my life and uh and uh, uh, I'm referring to um August 2024, uh, my very, very, very dear friend, uh, john Rulon, who, um, has been, um, uh, he was never a coach to me, but boy did he introduced me to a lot of, to, to a lot like.
Michael Monroe:I've never met anybody as elegant and savvy and tactful and generous as John, who was just able to, like we would call it, snowball up. So John's story is he was this goat-melting farm boy who his pastoral friend, youth pastor, was like hey, you know, you're on injury, leave, right. He was working at a large cable internet company and he fell off a ladder and went on leave and he wasn't too excited about getting back up on the ladder. So his youth pastor is like would you ever want to try selling Cutco? And you know John was the kind of like yeah, let you know what's Cutco, right?
Chase Williams:Yes, what.
Michael Monroe:Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So. So so him and I actually launched as sales reps on the exact same day, so not the same training class. We didn't know this, but it was June 10th year 2000. And so, providentially, we were always very, very bonded and connected by that, by the Cutco thing, and so I went to dabble in the leadership vertical and build all this, and John became not just the number one Cutco sales representative of all time, you know, I would describe John as unbeaten, unscored upon, like they had to take.
Chase Williams:He's the GOAT. He's the GOAT, bro.
Michael Monroe:Like the GOAT and his company Giftology, which you know he was often referred to as the goat of gifting, because like and it's really funny, by the way, getting to be like really, really close to John and masterminding with him and having this just incredible, you know, periphery and vision into the business and so forth.
Michael Monroe:like people would assume that a gifting company, like the job of a gifting company, is like you and the elves and the oompa loompas and it's like everybody's whistling and it's like get the wrapping paper right, like like, yeah, you know like totally not at all what it's like right, like like what this organization is is. It is a, it's a relationship agency and and you know, I can go, I can go deep into that. But but going back to your question, so, so John has had this incredible, profound impact on my life. He's. He's written the book Giftology.
Reed Moore:It's right there, he's front and center on that.
Michael Monroe:There it is, there it is. Is this the hardcover? Yeah, this is the hardcover version. Is this the hardcover? Yeah, this is the hardcover version. When it first came out, how I got introduced to John was there was a Cutco knife on the cover, on the soft cover. So my introduction to John was you know, hey, I think you should meet this guy. He's really supporting the Cutco brand and obviously you know him as the number one rep hey, this is mike monroe and digital strategy manager, all those things. So so I connect with john immediately.
Michael Monroe:We do a podcast and, and the funny thing about john, um, he was a, he was a great gifter. He really was, uh, but he was I've never seen anybody probably better at forgiving and apologizing, wow. And so we did a podcast together and I had heard all about John Rulon's lavish, lavish gifts and like stuff he'd done. So I grew up in the town next over from, uh, john Lee Dumas, jld, who does entrepreneur on fire, really big, you know, thought leader, uh, which again term I hate, but, but, but you know, sorry, john, but the idea is, uh is I heard that when Rulon was on John Lee Dumas' podcast that Rulon bought him like an infrared sauna right Like a $2,000, $3,000.
Michael Monroe:So here's the problem when you have that as your brand and now, like you know, all right, you know, mike, you know ready to do a podcast, I wasn't expecting anything, but I kind of was right. So we, we do a great thing, we sell a bunch of books and and a long period of time later, uh, uh, he facebook messages me, which, oh, it pissed me off, because if you facebook message me, what does that mean? Means you didn't save my cell phone number. That's the only way you know how to get a hold phone number. That's the only way you know how to get ahold of me. Yeah, that's the only way you know how to get ahold of me, which meant you didn't think my cell phone number was worth saving.
Michael Monroe:So I remember getting this message and, uh, and, and he pinged me, I mean he was, I mean he was cutco trained baby, so he knew how to no-transcript. We loved it. Uh, we got some really, really really cool stories from it. But, but, um, but at the time I was like I don't know what he wants. She's like, well, did you ask? I'm like screw that guy.
Chase Williams:I didn't, I didn't say I didn't say screw, by the way, I was, I was very, very expletive and and I'm like screw that guy.
Michael Monroe:I didn't say screw, by the way, I was very, very expletive and I'm like he didn't save my number.
Reed Moore:I'm Mike Monroe. Do you know who I am? Do you know?
Chase Williams:who I am? Do you know how important I am? You should save my number.
Michael Monroe:So anyway, my wife soldier mindset my wife's like I think you should, I think you should probably have a conversation with, I think, you know, sorry, to right like, yeah, seems like a thing you should, seems like a thing to do, so so anyway, um, we have a conversation and and uh, and in that conversation, you know, I I because I don't, I don't do well with resentment I'm just like hey, just so you know. He just took it and he just did what I've seen him do many, many times since then. It wasn't even his, it's a book launch. I didn't know at the time, of course, I was one of a thousand stops. It's not his fault, it was chaotic and he's just like. I'm so, so sorry. So you better believe I have your number saved for now and forevermore. In fact I'll even put it in as Mikey, because you'll be the only Mikey in my phone. So that's what he always called me. He always called me Mikey and he'd always call me and say the same thing. He'd go Mikey, what am I interrupting? Which I really appreciated, because the answer was always something. The answer is if you're not a scheduled call, I probably don't want to talk to you, but I like you too much, so I'm going you Right, so every time.
Michael Monroe:So John and I had a special relationship and some of the things we had the chance, the opportunity to, to do and to think and to thought leader through. I say thought leader through because because when you're in that industry as a thought leader and an influencer, there is inherent systematic, uh incentive to kind of live in a very superficial, narcissistic. John was not. He was the person in that industry that, like his yes meant yes, his no meant no and he was somehow like walked through the sludge and the mud and especially being exposed to this.
Michael Monroe:Now I know like the amount of people Joe Polish always says this. He's like the amount of people Joe Polish always says this. He's like the amount of people that post bull crap on the Internet to give the perception of success and wealth is absolutely positively nauseating. And that too has washed that cynicism into me. And so I've had the fortunate position of I'm not saying John had yes men. If anything, he probably didn't because he was so relationally driven and authentic and vulnerable and all those things. But but I was, I was kind of his anti-yes man. I was always the guy. You know, mikey, what am I interrupting? Tell me why this is a bad idea, right, and and and there were multiple times where I treated what he said like a jump to conclusions, matt Like if you've ever seen the movie Office Space.
Michael Monroe:Like Matt with conclusions you can jump to. This idea is horrible, right, like, just not, just not like, just not not kind. And, by the way, when he hit it out of the park, I would tell him and there were times where I'm like you know, like he named his, he named his membership and coaching service. The original name he's like you know, we should call it an acronym. You know something like Rich. I'm like that's the dumbest name. Like leave the title, like let me tell you what to write.
Chase Williams:You're acting as a scout, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was acting as a scout.
Reed Moore:That's exactly right it reminds me of when, Richard Branson he was talking about this and nobody wanted to tell him no, and so they launched virgin condoms. Turns out, it didn't work out so well Turns out it didn't work out, not in that category.
Michael Monroe:Yeah, it strikes me as an inherent contradiction. So anyway, long story short, john's thriving membership community is named Rich and it's brilliant and it stands for a thing. And so I was. I was there, were multiple times where I'd come before him and you know, hey, buddy, you were right, I was wrong, which I always be very, very public about, because when you're that, when you're that kind of, you know, that kind of role with that. So so it's August twenty twenty four, and that night he was on vacation with his family, his wife, the extended family, so so his wife's sister was there, the guy who I, I, who you know, convinced me to get an aura ring and we would oftentimes go back and forth and health data and encourage each other in our, in our health journeys. He went in from the pool and he collapsed and he didn't wake up.
Michael Monroe:There are moments, like when my grandmother and grandfather died. You knew it was coming. You knew it was coming. Sad, terrible. You love them so your heart breaks. You knew it was coming.
Michael Monroe:There are stories where, where you know, you go to your high school reunion or you see the Facebook post and it's like the kid that you haven't talked to in 15 or 20 years, something happened to his wife, or this, or diagnosis with terminal Right, and it's like, it's heartbreaking because there is the, there is the like. So young he's my age it like, there's this real sense of mortality, of, of like it could be, it could be. So I've had that happen, I've had this happen. I have never had both happen. I've never. I've never had, I've never experienced that.
Michael Monroe:And I can tell I want to go back to we, not me that a lot of people, based on his celebration of life, which was in St Louis, and people just came from all over the world, came from all over the world. It reminds me. It was about as close as I imagine you could ever get to the Tim McGraw song that you introduced me to Standing Room Only. It was so beautiful and so tragic and such a reminder. And so, going back to your original question, I was part of the organization and the group that helped Like do we still have a company Right? Like, like his team put on the celebration of life and and and there was a real sense of like. I mean, I don't know how many times they got asked like, so what are you going to write? Like, like? I mean like, what was the phrase you used originally when you asked the question, the question of like when, when, how, do you?
Reed Moore:how do you continue to lead and influence and encourage and cast vision and all the leadership things when you know that the people that you're working with are like they have to move forward? You have to move forward and there's so much just despair, but you're a leader, yeah.
Michael Monroe:The answer is I still don't know.
Chase Williams:I still don't know. There's no playbook?
Michael Monroe:still don't know, I, I still don't know, there's no playbook, uh. But one thing I can say very, very in particular um, the idea that, uh, god makes no mistakes and God knows everything that's coming, I, I, I want to, you know, I don't, I don't want to stay away from the God makes no mistakes because it's, it's, it's. I'm sure there's people, and they lose, people that get very angry with God, rightfully like, rightfully so.
Michael Monroe:And God's big enough to take that right, like you can shoulder that, but but for me, it was really the space of of God. God knew and had every inkling and know-how, and so I'll give you an example of this. I want to say it was 2022.
Michael Monroe:John and Mai's conversations started to kind of take a different flavor, and and and one of the things that I communicated with John very, very regularly, uh, was this idea of you don't want to be Martha Stewart, you want to be Martha Stewart enterprises. You want to be the Martha Stewart that IPO'd. You want to be the Martha Stewart Like'd. You want to be the Martha Stewart Like. You want to. You want to like your love. You're powerful, you are an engine. No one can do what you do, and if you're the major cog in the machine, you're the major clog in the machine. And so in 2022, I started using a phrase to try to drive into him, which jnn, which was john not needed right and and so I I would. Would you know if he you know, mikey, you know question about you know my team and this and that, and they want to do this, or what about jnn? And he'd like yeah, so what would you do? I'm like do you trust him? Then go go right like and this is part of the.
Michael Monroe:This is part of the. Like john built an incredible company, yeah, but but if he was still with us he would be at the apex. This is why he had a business partner, rod, who deals in enterprise level stuff.
Michael Monroe:Like like there would have been a skill set jump necessary to go to and they were doing it, they were doing it, they were doing it, and part of this was this concept of John not needed, where it was like open up a vertical of your business where you are totally a spectator most powerful moments I've ever had in business and you hear founders say stuff like this too, where where one of the most life-changing moments in a founder's company is when they're walking in the hall in the company, walking through the hall of the company, and they see two people, one of whom they don't know, and they're talking about fixing problems in the company.
Michael Monroe:Yeah, like that is a moment of like wow's the I made it moment, right, like holy cow, so so, so john and I are talking about this and it's like create this vertical and and he, he gets this. You know, little college intern on his team, a gal named sar Sarah Hardwick, mega talent, the definition of catch and release, meaning, meaning, meaning, just so bright, so good, so impressive, like you know. Prominent position in her sorority, you know, started a nonprofit or five or whatever.
Michael Monroe:Like I don't even know, like just just super, super, like, just buttoned up, talented, smart, and so now she builds out this membership community, the membership community being this thing where it's like let's see if people would actually join a gifting community. And I think the mandate or the aspirational goal in her first know, her first summer, which I think people were anticipating were going to be her only summer, because it's like, you know, go back to your senior year, you have something to do. It was like maybe we can get, maybe we can get, you know, 30 people in this thing, right, yeah, and. And you know 287 people later, right, and. And you know, hey, what'd you learn in your internship? You know, I learned I'm not going anywhere, right, wow, um, right, like, that was the, that was the, that was the one of the things there. So, um, prior to, prior to John passing, there was the entire rich relationship society that had been built in a place of John not needed.
Michael Monroe:And, uh, this was in conjunction with him writing his second book, right, and? And you can only going back to your question, as a leader, you can only look at that, and, and either everything in life is a coincidence or nothing is, and if you believe that nothing is, then there's a divine creator who is, who is architecting and who's setting and taking care up of, of taking care of the people who are, who are right, yeah, and, and, and. So I look at those moments which were so ridiculous and improbable improbable that Sarah got hired. Improbable of of J and N, improbable and like probably a hundred things I don't even know about. Right, like, like.
Michael Monroe:This is, the story is not about me whatsoever. I look at all those things and and I derive strength because it almost feels like, like, and, and I don't want to put words in in rod's mouth of the giftology team, but there's this real sense of like, if, if you're not on mission now, if you avoid the mission and the pain and the challenge, yeah, it's like jonah running away to get eaten by the whale. Like it is clear, yeah, what you are here to do.
Reed Moore:He lived for this, he died for this and we are the legacy.
Michael Monroe:Yes, yes, and, and here's the great thing about, and here's the rallying cry with john, and, and we, like so many people, said this, and then they said it at celebration of life. It was never about glory of John, it was always about glory to God, and this is how we lived the mission.
Reed Moore:Just thinking about you know all of the things you talked about with you know with developing people and then how you help that organization develop their people, not knowing how important it was going to be, and then just to watch you love and lead um in in this last season, uh, because we've been able to to kind of share in this journey, not nearly to the level that you you have had to to to go through, but it's just really a testament to your leadership and to your you know. It makes me think, like you know, with with John is like you know he loved God first and then the second piece of that, from everything I know about him from you and talking to him a couple of times, is he served people.
Michael Monroe:Everything you said is accurate and I am. I am grossly underselling it, not for any strategic or communicative reason, but just the fact that I don't. I don't know if there's enough time to be able to like, I don't even know if I have the words to give people the feel, but I think, in that note, going back to, two things can be true. First thing is the book is going to launch, the company is going to win, the company is going to do well, the mission is going to live on, it's going to be stronger than ever, and so John not needed, but, on the other hand, like guys, like john will always be needed. Yeah, and, and I think, at this point of human history where tribalism and polarization and algorithms and technology are eating the world, and you haven't seen, we haven't seen anything yet. We haven't even made ai that can think for itself. Yet that's coming. Let's add some super computers to that, and and and that's going to be fun, and we're in the greatest experiment in human history, which is for many, many, many, many years.
Michael Monroe:Let's give humans and children screens that are architecturally engineered and developed to keep their attention and reward their dopamine through simple clicks. Let's design companies that have attention engineers meant to keep people online on this screen for as long as possible so we can sell advertising. And let's if I'm the executives of that company, let's actually discourage my own children from using this technology, because we know how absolutely insanely dopamine destroying it is. Yeah, I think in that world and in that environment not to sound dystopian yeah, I think that relationship is alive and well and more important than ever. Yeah, and John is one of many messengers, and more so than anything. I hope that his message, I hope his message lives on.
Reed Moore:Yeah, well, one of the things I guess just wrap up with is I know that you are instrumental in bringing the thoughts that he had put after Giftology together, of thoughts that he had put after giftology together, and um, and I believe there's a book that's coming out that john wrote that you were instrumental in putting together. You want to give us a sneak peek?
Michael Monroe:I love marketing, I can do. I can do commercials, I can do commercials. So, um, uh, books are a great example of the first layer of transformation, which is knowing what to do. But completely, completely can't interact with a book, right? So so, first book, giftology. Incredible job of teaching what to do when it comes to like, hey, you should take gifting seriously. This is what makes good gifts. This is what makes bad gifts. The second book is called Beyond Giftology. This is what makes bad gifts.
Michael Monroe:The second book is called Beyond Giftology and you know the cover is a testimony to relationships, take you to places up and to the right, and it's also very you know people have referred to it as the stairway of heaven or stairway to heaven, which which I like, and I like that. You got the black book, giftology, the white book, beyond Giftology, but the idea is this is the book that teaches people how to earn endless word of mouth through the transformation of referral partners, and so there's a lot of literature out there about how to get referrals, how to ask for referrals. A lot of the content is exactly that Ask, ask again, ask more, show up to the network meetings, do these things right. Just got to get your foot in the door. Father-in-law, father-in-law advice you just gotta, you just gotta get your name out there, son, like just go out there, right, uh, uh, uh, yeah. But but that's not, that's not. That's not. It's not the artsy way of doing. That's not how john did it. It's not how john, that's not how john went from you, not the artsy way of doing. That's not how john did it. It's not how john. That's not how john went from you know, goat milking, farm boy to falling off a ladder, to selling knives, to skip some steps, but but private jets with, with billionaires, and and you know, yeah, yeah.
Michael Monroe:I'm excited for the book, I'm excited for the book launch. I'm excited for for really, the message, because it teaches uh, the system of like here is how to um, here is how to create ror, which we all know what roi is very, very transactional. I put in a dollar, I get back a dollar forty. But the thing that's so great about ROR is it might not be 1.4x, might not be 2x. Return on relationship could be 10x. Sure, could be 100x. Infinite yeah, could literally be infinite. Could be life changing, could be soul changing. Yeah, like could be the conversation. Introduce me to the person who had the conversation that changed everything, that led me to Jesus, that led me Right. Like like relationships and I say this is a 10,000 hour marketer and salesperson.
Michael Monroe:I've done, done my time, both those worlds. I say this as as hands down relationships take you places that marketing can't. Takes you place that sales can't. Relationships take you place that management can't. Relationships take you places that marketing can't. It takes you places that sales can't. Relationships take you places that management can't. Relationships take you places that contracts, threats and fears and quotas and all the things and incentives and do this, get that kind of programs, all those things. Relationships trump them all. It's not who you know, it's who you know who likes you, who trusts you, who will introduce you.
Reed Moore:Thank you, man.
Chase Williams:I appreciate you being here. Yep, this is great. Thanks, buddy, always a pleasure. Thanks, all right everybody. Thanks for listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast. If this episode inspired you, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review or share with your favorite leader. For more tools and resources, you can go to sherpaconsultinggroupcom. Remember that leadership is a journey and every step you take matters. We'll see you next time. Take care, guys.