Sherpa Leadership Podcast
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Sherpa Leadership Podcast
Episode 6 - Leading with Purpose: How to Keep Organizations Focused Amidst Growth Part 2
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The pursuit of organizational growth often misses the mark when it becomes the primary goal rather than a byproduct of powerful vision. In this transformative conversation with Pastor Dan Shields, we explore why companies and churches that obsess over becoming "Fortune 500" or "megachurch" status are often destined for disappointment.
"God decided we were going to be a large church. We never set out to be a large church," Shields reveals, highlighting that authentic vision must transcend superficial metrics. The most compelling aspect of his leadership philosophy centers on maintaining simplicity amidst complexity – what he calls "keeping us simple, fresh and focused" as his organization grows.
For leaders managing volunteers or teams, Shields offers a revolutionary perspective: stop telling people what job they're doing and instead continuously cast vision about how their contribution fits into the larger purpose. When people understand the "greater why" behind their tasks, retention and engagement naturally follow. This proves particularly crucial as organizations scale and vision alignment becomes increasingly challenging.
The conversation takes a profound turn when exploring the relationship between identity and vision. Leaders whose sense of self is overly tied to professional achievement inevitably create flawed visions that lead in unhealthy directions. True leadership requires establishing boundaries based on proper identity priorities – something Shields models by structuring his calendar around being "a follower of Jesus first, a husband second, and a professional third."
Perhaps most refreshing is Shields' emphasis on leadership vulnerability. Rather than projecting infallibility as organizations grow larger and more successful, the most effective leaders openly acknowledge mistakes and failures. This authenticity, far from undermining leadership credibility, actually strengthens follower commitment.
Whether you're leading a volunteer team, scaling a startup, or navigating organizational transitions, this episode provides invaluable wisdom for maintaining vision clarity while embracing the messy realities of growth. What boundaries might you need to establish to protect what matters most while pursuing your vision?
Vision vs Size: Church Leadership Insights
Speaker 1God decided that we were going to be a large church. We never set out to be a large church. That's what's funny, you know. It's just like the companies who say I'm going to be a Fortune 500 company. I'm thinking right away when they say that you're destined for failure because that's not vision, so that's not what gets you there. One of the hardest parts of my job is keeping us simple, fresh and focused.
Speaker 2You're listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast, your guide to climbing higher in life and leadership. I'm Reed Moore and, alongside Chase Williams, we're here to help you break through obstacles, scale your potential and lead with greater clarity and purpose. Everybody, welcome back to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, reed Moore, alongside Chase Williams, and, as always, like subscribe and share this with a friend. Or, if you want to see our action guides and all the different things that we put out there, go to SherpaConsultingGroupcom. We're here to help you climb higher in life and leadership, and this is part two of our interview with Pastor Dan Shields. It was so good, we decided to break it up into two parts to make sure you got everything, so we hope that you enjoy this episode.
Speaker 3So we're talking about this idea of seeing and shaping the future and the role that vision plays in leading people well. So I'd love to unpack a little bit about, you know, a church. Church in general, is going to be well known for, like a large part of the workforce being volunteer. Right, right, we work in a couple of industries that are large part independent contractors. Not the same, but some similarities, very much similarities. What have you found to be different or important about empowering volunteers well, in your world?
Speaker 1well, we do it well in some areas and terrible in others. You know, that's what we realize.
Speaker 3That uh part you're not perfect, and not not only not perfect, but you guys know, oh yeah, that's off subject, off script.
Speaker 2We're not perfect it is interesting.
Speaker 1You know that, uh, the larger your company or church gets, the harder it is to stay focused narrowly and, uh, envision leaks and so, and so, when you try to reproduce yourself, it's almost easy in your first line of direct reports. But then what about the next line, and the next line and the next line and you guys have experienced that in our church yeah, to be like, okay, well, dan leads it this way, but he brought in this person who leads it this way. And man, they're not having the same kind of visionary impact that I could have with the person, but I can't lead all of these people individually because we're working with so many volunteers. You know, for those of you who are watching and don't know, or, god decided that we were going to be a large church. We never set out to be a large church. That's what's funny. You know. It's just like the companies who say I'm going to be a Fortune 500 company. I'm thinking right away when they say that you're destined for failure, because that's not vision, so that's not what gets you there. It's like the churches are like I'm going to be a large church. I was like, if that's your goal, you're not going to get there. I said there has to be way too superficial, way too way up here. I'm like how do you latch onto that? Yeah, I want to be what. What am I following? You know the destiny? Where I got to know where we're going and what it is that's impactful for my life is I'm impacting others and that, my friend, is the secret.
Speaker 1When it comes to volunteers there, when you can get a volunteer to recognize what part that they play in the vision, I keep telling my staff over and over quit telling them the job they're volunteering for. You've got to continue to cast the vision of what they're doing and where it fits in the vision or the process. Why it's important, I said because that's why they'll stay. They'll stay because of that and they'll stay because of the relationship. So when people do things together, we say, hey, invite a friend to do this with you. Don't just do this. Do it with you, whether you're greeting or serving, or you know, in the coffee, or their kids, or in the outreach, or serving the poor or the homeless, or whatever you're doing, don't do it by yourself, do it with somebody else.
Speaker 1But if you don't understand why, as it pertains to the greater, why then, all of a sudden, people burn out that much faster? Because they just start losing like, well, I'm just here to watch kids. I'm here to shake people's hands when they come in. I'm here to clean the facilities. I'm like, no, you're not. You're here because you're creating the first impression for somebody who may be far from God, hurting like crazy, doesn't have relationships with other people and they're walking into this environment and the first encounter they have with our environment takes place before they ever meet a person. So what does it feel like to walk into our facilities?
The Challenge of Leading Volunteers
Speaker 1Thank you for volunteering by helping to clean the floors, sure, wash the windows, to spend two hours midweek cutting the lawn, as some of these older guys you know, just love coming into it because they understand there's a greater why and if they can understand greater, they're like wait a minute, I'm on a team and everybody has value. There's a part that everybody plays in accomplishing the vision that God has for us, and it'd be the same thing in all your companies. You know what's their greater why. Why am I doing this? What's the greater purpose and meaning? What's the vision? Attachment to any part of any person in your organization?
Speaker 2yeah, so I know you've never, uh, had this issue, but, uh, you know like we talk about. You know, a vision is a singular focus, right, and I had somebody explain to me a long time ago that the word division is literally division. It means two visions, that's, it doesn't mean a multitude, right? Um, uh, and you mentioned this right, the larger an organization gets, it's harder to say singularly or narrowly focused, yes, so how do you do that? Yeah, not well.
Speaker 1You know. So I feel like I'm constantly. It's like we're going down a track and I'm constantly trying to keep people in the track, Like this is where we're going. Trying to keep people in the track Like this is where we're going. The ways is a recalibration that we have to do at least bi-yearly with our staff when it comes to visionary opportunities, Like you guys just went through a big one with our church.
Speaker 1The best part of what we did as we went through this generosity initiative as part of our church wasn't the generosity initiative and I told the staff. I said our church is gonna think that this is a big generosity initiative to continue to fulfill the vision of reaching more people, which it is, I said, but for us it's going to unify us. We're gonna clear things off the plate, things that are less important, so that we can actually reestablish rhythms, boundaries and things that we should do, and we're doing it together. And it was one of the best years of watching the staff say no to things that they normally would say yes to, because we put these guardrails around and all of a sudden brought us together from any part that you're playing on staff and then all of a sudden, the volunteers catch that and then we have a slow rollout, and so that was that's how I know to help create success is you have to have these repetitive I don't know if you call them vision meetings reestablishing, like for our context. I'll always do a reminder series of who we are, why we exist and where we're going. Whether we call it vision weekend or vision series or whatever, there's always. That's always a part of my yearly rhythm. But I've also got to do it with our staff on a biannual basis Twice a year. We like staff retreats and different things like remember, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it and this is the emphasis this year.
Speaker 1The danger is, whenever I mentioned an emphasis, they think I'm doing a new vision and I'm like no, guys, let me remind you, we're not changing the vision, we're not changing the direction, we're just emphasizing this, this piece. So in order for us to go down this and continue to go straight, we're going to have to get an alignment. So our word this year is going to be alignment. Is that a new vision? No, it's still reaching the world for Jesus. It's still discipling people the way that God has called us to disciple people. But we've got to be aligned and we're not aligned right now. We've got these things we're division, We've got these things going in these different directions. So we're going to be about alignment as a staff and that's going to bleed through the whole organization Prayerfully, I should say.
Recalibrating Vision to Stay Focused
Speaker 1It doesn't always happen that way, but it is hard. It is the hardest, hardest part. One of the hardest parts of my job is keeping us simple, fresh and focused. It's just hard because everybody has a great idea. Even some volunteer leaders have some awesome ideas of how things should happen, and they're not wrong. But to have to say no to good ideas for even some great ones, or, harder still, to say no to some great ideas because you're trying to empower a great leader.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Which is really hard for volunteers, as you're trying to develop new leaders, and new leaders to who we are to say you know what? That's a phenomenal idea, but if we do this, it's going to undercut this potential leader, yeah, and so we're going to have to have to say no in order to have this person become who God's called them to be, for the next step in the season that God's prepared for them. Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, I want to ask a little bit about that, because I I my my thinking around this is is that, if the vision that we're after is worthwhile which is why it's attractive to people and why we remind them all the time and why we put everyone back in alignment when we, you know, when we start to drift a little bit, that some, some things are going to happen that are hard, that that threaten the vision? Right, whether that's the wrong volunteer or the wrong hire or something external. Right, we went through COVID as a church as an example. Right, like as a leader, though, how do you, how do you respond to something that you would say I think this might be threatening to our vision? How do you handle those situations Directly?
Speaker 1So we use a phrase clarity is kindness. Kindness does not mean niceness, because in the church world everybody's nice. It's a problem, and it's a problem you know you know, oh, bless your heart.
Speaker 2We want to be.
Speaker 1We want to be nice, and so we do want to speak the truth, but we want to make sure we do it in love, so we don't, we're not cutthroat. That's not what we're about, because where people work is where they worship, and we want to be sensitive to their impact, their family's impact, their friend's impact and the ripple effect that change can make. At the same time, we still have to be truthful with people, and I know what's hard is. It's not hard for me, but it is hard for many other people on our staff to be that. But it is hard for many other people on our staff to be that, so they would rather be nice and just let problems you know fester or have an inability to say no to people, programs, ideas, other vision and so constantly. And so we've got some high caliber people that you guys are really know that my biggest issue with them is you say yes to way too many things, sure, and so now we're doing all and we celebrate them.
Speaker 1Like look at this amazing conference thing we did, and I'm looking at it going yeah, but how did this accomplish the vision? How did it accomplish the mission that God has called us to accomplish? And everybody always. I don't know if you find it in your field, but we always restate what we think success is based on, what we believe the outcome is. So we'll go into something.
Speaker 1In my world they're like well, these three people were so moved and I'm like but we needed 300 people to be moved and what was the? What was the? What was the vision, what was the purpose behind that event or activity? Do you have that going into it? Because otherwise you will reestablish or you'll say it in your own brain and you'll come back and like successful, like no, it wasn't successful, but you think it was, because you came out of it saying that this was success, instead of going into it saying this is what success is going to look like. And for I don't know about you guys, but for us it's hardest also to kill things that have been around for a long time.
Speaker 3Oh, yeah, sacred cows.
Speaker 1Sacred cows kill things that have been around for a long time. Oh yeah, cows, sacred cows. So, um, nice part is that my personality lends itself to. I don't like doing the same things over and over and over and over, unless it's actually producing, but I'll hang in there with people for a little longer probably than you guys would just to be like, okay, I'll do it one more time, we'll just be able to give it an, but if it doesn't accomplish, we're killing it. Yeah, because we only have so time, only so much materials and people as the greatest resource that we have. So what are we asking of people? What are you asking of people?
Speaker 2Yeah, it makes me think, you know, just like vision drift can be not just a drift from the vision, but it can be a lack of hard conversations. Right, that idea that the lowest price you're going to pay is the price you're going to pay today, yeah, that idea that the lowest price you're going to pay is the price you're going to pay today. And to see people get caught in situations that are years in the making and the price increases every single day, to the point that it's not even imaginable to to deal with the hard thing and so what does that look like in your world?
Speaker 1what does it look like in your guys's world when it comes to vision or vision drift? I'd'd be curious.
Speaker 2So, um, we are a people heavy industry as well, and independent contractors are, uh, very similar in a lot of ways to volunteers, right, just with the way that you interact with them. So it happens to be a leadership rich environment, uh, at times, which? The nonprofit, the church world, absolutely it's maybe the most leadership rich environment, but it shows up the same way and that is I. I love this person, I want the best for them, I want to encourage them and they are not doing what they need to be to do and they don't want to leave because the culture's great, the vision's great, there's, there's connective tissue.
Speaker 2Yeah, and now I can watch them just die on the vine because I'm unwilling to have a hard conversation with them over time. Yeah, I can, can watch them just die on the vine because I'm unwilling to have a hard conversation with them over time. I can literally watch them run their bank account into the ground because the hard conversation of like you're not cutting it which causes them to wake up or to go find something they can be great in. It's brutal and it's something that I have, like I have overseen the poor, you know, execution of that more than a few times, unfortunately, yeah.
Handling Vision Threats Directly
Speaker 3Yeah, the way I was taught. That is in our business, right, we're a results-based business, particularly around commission, meaning that, like, without a result, you don't eat, right. And the way that I was taught or cautioned around this from another leader early on in my career is you can actually love people right out of the industry, or love them right out of the business or love them into bankruptcy, right. If you're going to stand for someone, then you have to be willing, as hard as it is, yeah, right, regardless of how you're naturally wired, it's still not an easy conversation to have with someone like, hey, you're not showing up for your family in the ways that you need to in order to provide, or you're not showing up for yourself in the ways that you told me you want to.
Speaker 3Who you want to be, yeah, and the results that you want to achieve and, like you said, it's almost that pattern interrupt because I love you, right, I don't. I can't just be nice, to use the word. I can't just be nice because I don't want you to be upset with me if I'm the person or one of the people you've asked to stand for you when you really need it the most. Like that's actually love. That's just a different way that it can show up right, and we have that a lot in our industry because of just the type of business that we're in.
Speaker 2When you start to, you start to buy into people, and the more that you see their potential, the more you can have this tendency to turn a blind eye to their. Their words are saying this or their potential, the more you can have this tendency to turn a blind eye to their. Their words are saying this or their potential saying this, but their actions are saying this, and there can you know that that starts to become a pretty significant disparity. And so, just thinking about the idea of love, right, If we looked at that in business as care, candor and commitment, if I, if I look at care, care, care, care, care, and I don't I don't address these other two.
Speaker 2It's actually not love.
Speaker 1It's not love, right, right, yep hard but I think what you guys just uh hit and I think it's your personalities and hopefully it's the same in your industry is you're in the people business, yeah, yeah, more than the bottom line, because it's funny when you focus on the people, that actually impacts the bottom line in the way you just described. And and what I have found is, even if I got to make sure when I go into these conflict conversations or these truth-telling conversations, I got to make sure my heart is actually for that person, because I can find myself so frustrated that they're not accomplishing the vision or what was agreed upon, or that that if I don't check my own heart, then I usually have to come back and apologize because I did the right thing, I was candor, but I was not kind, because I knew where my heart was. And I think the businesses that are doing really well is they're keeping that still at the forefront is that we're all in the people business. I don't care what business or entrepreneurship you're running, and if you actually care about people, then you actually see the bottom line impacted that much more. It may take a little longer, but when you focus on the bottom line it changes so many different things.
Speaker 1I was listening to Simon Sinek. He was on a podcast a little while ago and I and I just think he's he's just got some real, real emphasis and he just talks about some of the biggest corporations in America have forgotten that principle and they focus on the bottom line, which is actually to the detriment of people, like in the food industry. He was talking about candy bars. You know he goes candy bars here in America have these ingredients that you'd never find in Europe and it's the same candy bar industry and it's because they care more about the bottom line, knowingly that some of these are having a detrimental effect on people, as they've studied here versus in Europe. And he's like for what purpose? I was like it's a freaking candy bar. And he's like, yes, you may be making a few extra million dollars, but at what cost? And he was just saying we're all in the people business and he's not a christian at all. Yeah, and so I'm like that's where we miss it is.
Speaker 1I think sometimes and we do it in the church world as well is when we focus on you're not doing it or you're not doing it right, more candor, when we forget the kind not nice, but the kind part, I think we actually hurt whatever the vision or the culture you're actually trying to create, and then people stop wanting to be a part of that culture because people are not as driven long-term by money than maybe when they're newer in it. But when you go through some hard times and some ups and downs, like no, no, no, I actually want to, yes, make money and I want to provide for my family, but so much better when it's on a team, yeah, and I get to do it with other people, which is what I love you. But you guys are doing is is you're like no, no, we're not independent, because your industry is all about independence. Right, like no, I, I'm supposed to do my and good, find my people. And yet there's greater strength when you're doing it together.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, you mentioned something earlier, dan. I'd love for you to maybe talk to our leaders about this challenge of even really good leaders that are in the people business having an issue with boundaries.
Speaker 1Yeah, what yes?
Setting Boundaries as a Leader
Speaker 3And maybe the issue being like not putting enough in place, yeah Right, and you mentioned that being kind of common in the church world sometimes Like why is that? And then, as a leader, how can I understand boundaries in a way that is supportive of the people that I love and lead the vision and the mission that we have for the organization? How do boundaries play into that?
Speaker 1Yeah, I think a lack of boundaries, I think, is where we kind of start, falls under two categories. One, it can be self-discipline. Two, it's where do I get stroked, where do I get my ego built up? Because what I tend to do, especially as driven people who want to be successful, is we pour ourselves into where we're going to receive validation for our identity or our purpose in life, and yet the most important areas we may not get that, and so there's a temptation to let boundaries kind of creep into other areas to the detriment of our families. And we all say I've never met anybody saying, yeah, I just hope that my business succeeds and I trash my family. Nobody has that, but it happens all the time.
Speaker 1Marriages don't last Kids growing up resenting their parents because their parents cared more about their work or industry than they actually did about the kids. And a parent justifies and says no, I was there to provide for the kid, and the kid says your provision was your presence, and so we all know this. We've never experienced this as kids. We've either grown up and so, boundary wise, we have to be okay to say I'm not going to get the ego stroke or the affirmation of what I think, is my purpose and meaning in life, because I've reestablished my new purpose and meaning. Or I need to make sure I put boundaries around because eventually I'm going to see the fruit of this. It's like putting money in a 401k when you're 18 and you're not going to see it for 40 years Right, but you're like, no, I need to do this now because it's going to pay. It's the same thing with your kids. You know little five-year-olds not going to be like oh thanks for coming home at five o'clock again, daddy, I just appreciate you for sacrificing for me, you know.
Speaker 3I'm never going to get that.
Speaker 1You're going to come home and the kid's crying and wailing and you're just like, oh my gosh, I had a hard day anyway and I'm walking into another hard experience or whatever it may be, and yet you've got to put some of those diners around. So for me, this is the greatest impact my dad had on me is he modeled this for me and he said Jesus is first, your family second and your work is third. And that's what he said. More famous preacher, andy Stanley, said don't die for the church. It's not what you're calling. It's already been died for. Jesus already did that. So why are you dying for the church? Quit sacrificing. You need to give of yourself for God, but don't kill yourself for the church.
Speaker 1And so I've tried to model. So if, as a leader, I would just remind your leaders, your people who you're leading will follow what you do, not what you say, just like your kids. Yeah, so I have to model. You know, for our 50 employees, this is when I leave, and it's different at different stages too, and I remind them of that, and and I and we have specific things. I said I want you to beat your kids events. I want to make sure that you're home. You should only be out this many nights a week. Your job still needs to be done, but there's different ways to do it in different seasons. Let's talk through that.
Speaker 1Yeah, and so we talk about what is quadrant living, you know, look like at different ages and stages. What does it look like to give your best at certain hours for tasks that require your best versus other times during the day? So all the things you guys have taught and learned is what we try to play the same kinds of things. But then there's other principles that I've said. When I create my calendar, I try to model out for the staff. So when I create my calendar, I say, all right, what are the essential things that only I can do my calendar? I say, all right, what are the essential things that only I can do? First thing on that list is as a follower of Jesus. Second thing that nobody else can do is I'm my only wife's husband, prayerfully, prayerfully.
Speaker 3So keep loving me.
Speaker 1So I'm only wife's husband. I told that there was part and if I'm going to foster that relationship, what does that mean in my calendar? Because I know I don't know about you guys, but I'm driven by my calendar. Sure, if it's on my calendar, so I'm like, all right, I do it twice a year, every between Christmas and New Year's, and every time in the summer I retake control of my calendar based on the priorities that was coming up, so that I can create boundaries that help me to live as the leader that God has called me to lead in this next season. And it changes, yep no-transcript.
Speaker 3You use boundaries is by first having the right priorities.
Speaker 1Yes, it's exactly right, you said it way better than me and so like way more succinct.
Speaker 3Listen to this guy and, by the way, it's easy to say it's hard to do, which is why why these practical tips, calendar and otherwise are so important, because it's like you said, it's like everyone knows right Diet and exercise if you want to be healthier. But that doesn't mean everyone is living that way. So I really appreciate that practical advice.
Speaker 2I think about just kind of practical, the idea of boundaries. There's no athletic event that you watch that um would be any good at all if it didn't have boundaries, right, right, you have a basketball court, you have a football uh field, you have, you have all of these things and the boundaries actually create the structure for the, the goal, the mission, the vision, all that to to take place in. And it's interesting, just kind of going back to what you talked about, where you know we want to celebrate these things that are that propagate the mission. But there's also this dark side of that, and that is this world celebrates things that that can easily take us away from the most important things. Right, you stand up on a sunday and you preach and thousands of people are like, oh my goodness, this is amazing. And you go home, your wife's like can you do the dishes right? And it doesn't actually create a short-term reward and without boundaries, those two things are very it's very easy and very clear to see with the one you're going to gravitate towards.
Speaker 1Yeah, like naturally yeah, and in fact, if you think about boundaries in the context of our conversation, you have to go back to why. Do you have a vision for why the boundaries in place? If you don't have a vision for why the boundary is in place, if you don't have a vision for why you're setting that boundary or prioritizing what you're prioritizing, you will then inevitably be controlled by other people's visions or other people's schedules. So when I start thinking about, well, what is my vision for my marriage? What's my vision for my kids? What's the vision that God has for us in my vision for my kids? What's the vision you know that God has for us in my role in this next season? And so that helps me, when it comes to vision, to establish the right boundaries and the right priorities that then help other things, you know, continue to go in the way that God's called them to go.
Speaker 2This has been just a masterclass, might be the way of saying it. What questions about vision have I not asked that I should have? Or what other things are just kind of sitting there ready to be said?
Speaker 1The only thing that comes to mind is the idea of identity, you know, as it's tied to vision. We just touched on it a little bit. I'm convinced, more now than ever, that if people don't have a great understanding of their identity, they're going to have a real hard time coming up with, accomplishing and leading vision, or they'll get caught up. It's one of the reasons boundaries is so difficult is because if I go and put my time where my identity is, then I'm going to find my vision is being dictated, driven by a wrong direction.
Speaker 1Sure, you can come up with a great vision that leads you off a cliff, and you don't see it off a cliff.
Speaker 1You think it's wonderful and it's great as you're going on the ride, but you don't see on the other side of the hill that it actually is an absolute destruction, because your identity is connected when it comes to your vision.
Speaker 1And so if you don't get to the core of who you are and if you think who you are is what you do, then you're going to find yourself going through some identity crises and some, then thus having vision that's not going to match with the whatever success is supposed to be when it comes to your industry match with the, the, whatever success is supposed to be when it comes to your industry, and how many guys and gals do you guys come across that they get so caught up in their work as leaders, in their identity as the leader, and if that is your identity and that is your vision for your life, what happens when that gets taken away?
Speaker 1Yeah, and there's a reason why you lose your families and stuff because you've said this is who you are instead of this is who I am. Wow, yeah, and so that's the only other piece that comes to my mind. You know, but I'd love to hear from you guys, you know, what are one, two or three areas that you see that a church like ours, from your vantage point, needs to grow when it comes to vision.
Speaker 3Church like ours, from your vantage point, needs to grow. When it comes to vision, well, I would say one thing, dan, is I think you've done a really great job, you and your team, around this idea of leading us through massive growth in the church Because, like you said, the growth in and of itself wasn't the goal. Right, like, to be a large church was never the goal. And yet that can be scary to a lot of people, right, like even this myth that big is bad somehow, but it's a common one, meaning that, like, oh, it's going to lose its feel, or I'm going to lose the relationships or whatever.
Speaker 3It might be right, and you probably know better than I do, but I've watched you and the crew do a great job of tying back the vision to the growth. Right, like, the growth is a byproduct of a strong vision, and it's a byproduct of a powerful vision, right, which is actually one person at a time, but if you play out one person at a time over time, that's lots of people. And so, like, I've really appreciated that because I know that for any organization, right, sometimes this idea of growth in and of itself is scary to the people that are already appreciating what exists today. Yes, they're nervous that they're going to lose that somehow through growth and and actually that can happen. Yeah, so it's. It's not like an unfounded concern, uh, but again, I've watched you tie it back to the actual vision for the church and why that's important. I think that's been super helpful to any of us who might have concern around that.
Speaker 1Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2It makes me think, and I can just say this right into a mirror there's never been an organization in the history of the world that has been over-visioned, and so I think you guys do a great job, a phenomenal job, of casting the vision, or recasting the vision, or recasting the vision, and, as much as it happens, vision still leaks, vision still doesn't get heard. Yes, right, and so just thinking about as much as you do around that and as great of a job as you do, again looking in the mirror, how is it that I make peace, that the fact that this is still 10 of what it should be, and maybe even that it doesn't get heard, yep, right and I think that's that's maybe the unsaid question when have you screwed up at vision, you know, where have you failed and and and that's you know.
Speaker 1I think that's some of the greatest learning lessons you know is that is is, um, I hired the wrong people and you don't realize that when you're in the midst of, or you kind of knew when you did it, but you sacrificed for the sake of fill in the blank need for urgency, for just love, try to just help a person out, and you get them in a role. And because you get them in a role, then obviously it hurts the vision and then it hurts your credibility as a vision caster. Yeah, and so I've made many, many of those kinds of mistakes.
Speaker 2um, when we thought we were the only yeah, this is, this is a healing, but, yeah, this is the only I think you gotta be okay, you know, with, with, uh, with failing, and what do they say?
Speaker 1fail forward, yeah, just continue to learn. And and if, as long as you're like, okay, ok, I think the best visionaries can also own publicly as well as with the appropriate people at the appropriate level, to say I screwed up. And I think the temptation that I have is sometimes, when we get bigger or more successful is like, well, I can't admit. There's a voice that's back there and I'm like no, you need to admit more now than ever. Sure, admit there's a voice that's back there and like, no, you need to admit more now than ever. Sure, you know that that I screwed up, that I, that I made a mistake, or there's like in every industry. Is there scandal? Is there, uh, things that are not? You know, um, talked about we're trying to sweep what other words? Sweet things under a rug? You're right, you're like no, now, especially more than ever, you've got to be honest and open at an appropriate level with things, and I think that's an area that I continue to grow in.
Navigating Change and Environment Transitions
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, when you think about this idea of having a vision, you know in a way it's it's seeing something that doesn't yet exist. So to think that it's not going to be fraught with failure along the way, be a little naive for a visionary, right. And yet when we run into those mistakes or failures, or whatever you would call them, I hear you loud and clear right. It's like that's the time, as a leader that is rooted in the right identity, to be open, honest, apologetic, whatever may be appropriate in the moment, and I think that just draws those that are following even closer. Yeah, right, it's authentic to your point.
Speaker 1And vision is not a straight line. No, we set set out we're going to get to the top of that mountain and we're going to go like this. You know, up and down we're going to, we're going to. It's going to take twice as hard, 16 times as long than what you projected, but you just got to keep that focus to be able to do that. You guys know we have this.
Speaker 1I've already told a couple staff people that, whether this makes this or not one of the things, I know that's coming because change is hard for everybody. So when we're talking about like hey, we're going to go into this new space one day, so we're going to, hopefully in the next couple of years we're going to move into this new environment. Here's what I know. I have to do a whole message for all of our people, because there's going to be a good segment of them. They're going to go from where we are into this new and they're going to say things like it doesn't feel the same anymore and they'll use things like maybe we're just a little too big now. It doesn't have that that personal feel. That's not it at all. What it is is that so much of their connection to god and other people took place in an environment. Oh yeah, and so they're like this feels different. I won't sit in my seat.
Speaker 3That's right. They're like wait a minute.
Speaker 1I got baptized in that tub Right, I was sitting here weeping with my wife when we were talking about marriage. I was at a conference in this room. When you know and you go through the whole litany of what the experience has been, the way I can describe it is if you've ever had kids in a home, oh yeah, and then you moved out of that home to a bigger, better, nicer home. But the grief on yourself or your wife or the kids is shocking to some people. Just like what? We're going to something better, this is greater, and they're mourning this process and, as a leader, if we're not casting vision, telling them this is going to happen, it will soften the blow.
Speaker 1Yeah, whenever we make those kinds of changes to say let's put reality in the room. So this is what it's going to feel like, and so I already know in my mind I was like, all right, a couple weeks before we can move in, I'm going to have to have the talk and the way everybody all of a sudden identifies is like have you ever been in a house where you had kids or you got married, or this was your first home and you left to something and you're just like that was just our apartment, that was our. We didn't even own the place. Why are we crying? You know? Why are we upset? Look at all this cool stuff? And that's because it's. It's just hard to embrace when you've been impacted by something and that's hard for your employees to experience that as well.
Speaker 2Well, and that's one of the reasons we're doing the podcast is things like that, like you wouldn't pick up on that until you've messed that up more than a few times, because it's. It's this very experiential, like what is the reason that we're doing all of these? It's going to be better things and it's genuinely going to be better, and yet this is the experience right that that comes with uh seasoning.
Speaker 1Yes, it's exactly right, but it's funny that I was like all right, what's going to be the pitfalls? I already know that's going to be a big one, but they'll use different language just doesn't feel the same and they won't be able to know just something's different. It'll take a while before the new is established as routine or more impactful, but you're just going to see that.
Speaker 2All right guys. That is our interview with Dan Shields. You can find out more about Dan Shields at VRLChurch. We love it, we love the resources there and we're just so thankful to be able to have this conversation about seeing and shaping the future with you, my friend.
Speaker 1Thanks man, I hope you know as people are watching, we're a church that just cares about you guys.
Speaker 3All right, chase take us home, send us out. If you found value in this episode, please like, subscribe or share with another leader. You can get more resources and information at SherpaConsultingGroupcom. Remember as a leader, every step you take matters, keep stepping. As a leader, every step you take matters, keep stepping. We'll see you next time.