Episode 16 - Hiring The Wrong Person Is A Team Sport

Your culture is not what you say in a meeting. It is what you tolerate, what you reward, and who you decide to bring onto the team. We sit down with Paul Hansen to get uncomfortably practical about values-based leadership, especially when growth, urgency, and pressure tempt leaders to cut corners.

Paul walks us through his leadership story from early responsibility at home to building a career in financial planning and leadership at Northwestern Mutual. Along the way, he explains the “three I’s” that drive people to commit to a path income, independence, and impact and why independence became a north star for him. We also talk about a surprising training ground for character: guiding clients on the river, where your integrity shows up in small choices and people learn whether your “audio matches your video.”

From there we get into the hard parts leaders face: taking over a big organization too early, feeling over your skis, and learning to choose action instead of spinning in your head. Paul shares recruiting lessons you only earn the expensive way, including why trusting your gut matters, how a strong culture attracts the right people, and why vision has to be clear enough that others can see their future in it. He also breaks down real hiring calls, using tools like Life Languages and the Culture Index, plus the difference between the wrong person and the right person in the wrong seat.

If you care about leadership values, organizational culture, hiring, succession planning, and building leaders who build leaders, this conversation will give you language and frameworks you can use immediately. Subscribe, share this with a leader you respect, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Cold Open Three I’s And Gut

SPEAKER_00 0:04

When I recruit people and what we do, I say there's three items. The first one is income. People want unlimited income. The second one is as they want independence. And the third one is as they want independence. And it's usually a combination of those people. 54 years. My gut has probably led me astray maybe two or three times. When your gut says something's not right, you need to follow

Meet Paul Hansen Values In Action

SPEAKER_00 0:38

that.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

You're listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast, your guide to climbing higher in life and leadership. I'm Reed Moore, and alongside Chase Williams, we're here to help you break through obstacles, scale your potential, and lead with greater clarity and everybody, welcome back to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Reed Moore, along with Chase Williams. Excited to bring you another amazing episode with another great leader. As always, we're here to help you climb higher in life and leadership, break through obstacles, and grow in your leadership journey. We have an incredible guest today. And Chase, you want to do the honors?

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yes, we have Mr. Paul Hansen, who Reed and I have both known for a number of years now. I don't know how long you've known Paul, but I've known him for a couple of years. And he's an incredible leader in business, uh in our church, in his family, and we'll let him kind of share some of the details. Uh, but we've been lucky and blessed to know Paul and learn from him and just be in his space. And so I have no doubt that just uh everything you'll be able to gain from his experience and life and just the way he approaches uh the topics that we have for you today are going to be valuable for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

So we've been going through um the our iServe model and working through what it looks like to be a great organizational leader. And we're landing the plane with this uh series of episodes, talking about what it looks like as a leader to embody the values, right? For people to be able to actually see the values not just on a wall, but uh in a person. And so when we were talking about who we need to invite, there was one name that came to mind. It was like we got Dr. Paul. So thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Well, you're welcome. No, it's my it's it's an honor for me. So thank you. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

So, Paul, tell us just a little bit, anything you'd like to share about just kind of your journey in life, your journey in leadership, uh what you're up to these days, anything that would be relevant or otherwise.

From Early Responsibility To Independence

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Well, I'll give you guys my my story here. So um I grew up in Moscow, I know. Uh grew up in a a family uh I would say uh lower uh middle class, maybe the higher upper part of poor. And uh then uh my parents uh got a divorce when I was 10. And um my dad was starting an Edward Jones practice, and um, so I got to watch him do that. But I also uh had a younger sister. My mom ended up getting cancer and left the area, and um, I ended up being a parent basically to my sister as my dad was trying to start a business. And my dad also ended up with a girlfriend, so he ended up staying a lot away from us. So we were young kids, kind of navigating life ourselves. I had lots of love. My dad was there for me, but I had lots of uh lots of love. But I got to basically feel what it was like to be on my own and be responsible for people, and it ties into my leadership journey, so I I tell you that. Um then uh my dad really kind of I would say woke up uh probably in my high school years and became a really um uh influential parent and uh just a great leader in in my life. And I got to watch him build a practice, uh uh investment practice where people loved him and cared for him and he was successful. Uh so then I uh at about 17 uh observed something that was really, really important to me. And that was my dad could not make it to my football games that were away, and he couldn't make it uh necessarily on hunting trips or fishing that was important to me during the weekdays or when I had holidays or whatever. And so I started investigating, and I found that there was a um gentleman that was our next door neighbor who acted kind of like a father figure to me. I'll just his name was Rex, that he had a lot more freedom and flexibility. And so Rex uh made it to all of his kids' games, and didn't matter where they were, and so I thought that's pretty important to me. And so as I investigated, I realized I really didn't want to do exactly what my dad did. I loved that my dad had impact on people, but I also wanted independence. And when I recruit people and what we do, I say there's three eyes. The first one is income, people want unlimited income, second one is is they want independence, and the third one is is they want to provide impact on people, and it's usually a combination of those on why people do certain things, and for me, the independence was really, really important. So I was uh introduced to Northwestern Mutual at 17 years old. Wow, and Northwestern Mutual, I didn't even know what it was, but I knew because people had told me that I respected, you should go talk to them because what's important to you, they probably can provide. Okay. So I showed up almost unannounced, my best clothes I had, and told them Dave Trail was the guy's name, my story. And Dave Trail was in charge of Moscow and Lewiston, um, and had a number of advisors, very successful. And he said, We have a great internship program. And he goes, You're young, but why don't you go to the University of Idaho, do the internship program, and if you like it, that'll be great. And if you go vandals, go vandals. Go vandals, and if you like it, he goes, You may want to take over from me someday. And it was like, oh, okay. So I did the internship and I was very successful. And I have a love for the outdoors, and I was a fishing guide down in Hells Canyon, and it was amazing how well those two things work together. Because I was fishing typically very wealthy people for salmon, steelhead, sturgeon, bass, that type of thing. Typically three days with either their executive teams or their families. And when I got to know them, one thing you learn about somebody when you're fishing is as you find out it's kind of like golfing, you don't want to cheat at golfing and you don't want to skimp on if you have to barb those hooks or releasing a fish or whatever, because people see you, right? They they see your true character. And so I had a lot of successful people say, Hey, I'd like to work with you. And so I ended up developing some really good clients at a young age. And uh, because of that, became successful as an intern, uh, really put myself through school uh all the way. And um uh my actually I did not graduate because I found I was so successful at it, but what I would say is um uh that's how I got my start with Northwestern Mutual. And if you don't understand what Northwestern Mutual is, is it's an insurance company that started in 1857. And it the reason it's called Northwestern Mutual is because in 1857 the Northwest was around the Chicago area. Oh and Northwestern Mutual uh is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, started as a life insurance company,

Trust And Character Under Pressure

SPEAKER_00 7:40

and for those that are farmers, they'll understand what a co-op is. And back then almost all insurance companies started as a co-op, and that's what a mutual company is, and so with that said, um our clients own our company.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

All right, and then um I would I think it's about the 1970s we got into the investment business, and now we do really holistic financial planning for people, and we're much stronger, I'd even say, in the investment world than we are even in the insurance world, but it's holistic financial planning. And so uh I the internship, I did this, uh decided I was gonna go full time, went full time, met my wife, uh, we got married, um, and then pretty soon I got tapped on the shoulder and said, Hey, how would you like to lead some people? And you guys know what that's like. Yeah, and so I didn't it was like new to me. Sounds funny, it'll be easy. That's right, it is, sounds easy. And they said, Go find somebody, and I did. I went and found somebody and I brought them in, and I realized, man, he you do all kinds of stuff with them, you get to know them, you get to you're intimate. All right, and um I did that, and Justin was his name, and he became successful, and then they said, Well, go find another one, and so I did, and I did another one, and I did another one, and then I got a pat, and then I got you know different people, and pretty soon I found I was successful at this, and Moscow is not a really large town. So I went to Dave Trail, the guy that recruited me, and said, Hey, Dave, um, I'd really like more opportunity. I think I want to move to Quarter Lane. And he said, No, you don't. You want to take over for me. And so at a very uh young age, he literally in his mid-50s said, You're this is ready for you. Wow. And you were how old at the time, 27. Okay, wow. And it was uh it was a large organization, and I was way over my skis. Way over my skis, mainly with experience of life with conflict and how to deal with people. Um, and that said, um I took over, and uh in that first year um I developed Crohn's. Uh my sister was diagnosed with uh cancer

Over Your Skis Choose Action

SPEAKER_00 10:06

and uh I was like in the fetal position for a lot of it. So I could go out and I could sell, I could find people, I could train them, I could develop them, but to really run the business, I found that I was over my skis. And I've still been on that journey even today. You know, I mean, working with people is is um incredibly rewarding and incredibly challenging. Absolutely. So with that said, uh kind of bringing us closer to today, I did that, ran that position in basically northern Idaho, and I I was able to take on Whitman County and Pullman and um was very successful at that, fortunately, and found a lot of really good advisors. Um did that for 16 years. And Northwestern Mutual came along and said, Hey, we would like to make a replacement for the entire region, which there's only 80 Pauls in the United States. Um, and they hey, would you consider this? And so my wife and I got together and prayed about this and uh talked to them quite a bit about what the opportunity was. And they said, if you want to do this, we want to put you through about a three-year leadership school. And so, and it was intensive. But I said, Okay, yeah, I'd like to do that. And so I did, and uh, I took over uh about ten and a half years ago, and the territory that I operate for Northwestern Mutual is from the Cascade Mountains to the Montana border, for almost similar to yours, from the Canadian border down to basically the Oregon border. Got it. And my job is to grow and develop that territory um the best I can. Uh, and I have a team of people that do that, but it works very similar to the real estate world that I'm kind of like the broker and they're kind of like the agents, um, and we're doing very similar things, and my job is to be involved in their lives and their businesses and help them be successful.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

So that's kind of my story and kind of how it relates to what you guys do.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

That's amazing. A lot to unpack there. Yeah, yeah. For sure. Uh the first thing that stood out to me actually was kind of along the lines of um uh embodying the values because you start off with these high net worth individuals fishing and they saw you in a certain light. Um was that just did that just come naturally to you at a young age, or is that something that you learned to, you know, uh for the audio to match the video?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Yeah. What's interesting, uh I say this because uh I think you guys can remember this, but kind of almost before the day of debit cards and credit cards, uh, we either wrote checks or paid cash. And I remember going to the grocery store with my dad, and uh many times I would watch him count the change that he got back. And um I would notice that he would go, Hey, you overpaid me. And so that story multiple times stuck out that we do the right thing. And it was interesting because I watched him, and I think you've said this, I've seen you say this, is you catch it, or maybe you guys have it in here, yeah.

Culture Recruiting Vision Succession

SPEAKER_00 13:15

You catch it, it's not taught. And so I caught that.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah. You say so, unpack that a little more, Paul, because it it we hear that so many times in leadership training. We were talking before we started recording about like the concept of leadership versus the practical aspect of it. And so we always hear like do the right thing. We we the synonymous with integrity and what a great story to have caught from your dad, right? That illustrated it practically. Yep. Why is it sometimes so hard to do that?

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Right?

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Because it sounds like, of course, do the right thing, easy, yeah. But and and and if it were only so, right? Like, and as you go through a journey in leadership and you're taking care of other people and you have intimate relationships with them, sometimes you know, there's there's there's tougher decisions to make, or you know, we we encounter these scenarios that of course we we we will and intend to do the right thing, but it's hard. Why is it hard?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Well, uh, I know you guys have a faith, and I think there's this element of um our flesh. And our flesh is sometimes it's we can cut a corner or we can take the extra change somebody gave me, and uh we can listen to that side of our bodies. And I think all of us have it. It's like why do we all struggle? I think we both have the kind of these two angels on our side, you know, and and go ahead and take the money. Um go ahead and and do whatever. But I I I think if you want to win for the long term, you have to mute literally like our our our TV remotes, you have to mute that side of your brain that says cut corners. So I I think we have that choice and we have to do something that basically does that. And part of it's accountability, part of it's by being around people. You know, we were designed to be around people, and being around like-minded individuals is really, really important. Yeah, but if you're the leader, you also have to be the one that basically steps up and says something when it's things aren't being done right. Yeah, because you're gonna your culture is yours.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Sure. Yeah. So so tell me about that. So so you started, um, you started recruiting people, bringing people into what would ultimately be your culture. Um, and at a young age, my guess is that it it wasn't as intentional as now, as maybe it is now. Um how did you how did that evolve for you?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Let me get to the end of this for a second. I remember Lou Holt said something, and I'm gonna try to quote him the best I can is this if you recruit them good enough, you can't train them bad enough. That's good. And I think I've learned that. Um so I've made every mistake there is at recruiting. Um I wouldn't listen to my gut. Uh I've profiled all kinds of people, I wouldn't listen to those things. But the reality is that usually those things are true. Um I know that ultimately probably I'm 54 years old, and I think in 54 years, um my gut has probably led me astray maybe two or three times. When your gut says something's not right, you need to follow that, right? And the other thing is is having team members. So as I've now developed enough team members um and people that I trust, um, when they have hesitancy about somebody, maybe they see something in somebody that I don't see.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

But again, if if you recruit them good enough, you can't train them bad enough. I mean, it's just that they will succeed.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Yeah, a lot of truth in that. So, Paul, you you mentioned that um I think you said you were 27 or 29, right? You take over this uh organization in a leadership role and you are over your skis. Yep. And I smile because I think almost every leadership role I've ever taken on, I was over my skis. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes way over, sometimes a little over. Um, and and and that can happen even if someone sees in you oh yeah uh leadership capability and even a track record of some of those things, right? Typically, why you're offered roles like that. Um, how did you show up in that time in your journey, right? Like you knew you're over your skis, you mentioned the fetal position. Gosh, that I I I know exactly what you mean because I've been there. Um, but how did you show up and move through that time when it was like, gosh, I'm I'm treading water here, or maybe I'm underwater?

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Well, I think it goes back to values. Um, and I was fortunate, uh, even though I had some absences in my childhood, I did have a father that loved me and cared for me, and I knew that. Um, I didn't have a strong faith early, but it was about this time that I started developing my faith. And um I think uh Chase, the way I would say that is there's three things that we can do when we're faced with something. We can either think about it, we can feel something about it, or we can do something about it. There's only three. And I think I learned that action was more there was more benefit to action than any of the others. Now, I think a lot of it has to do with the the ability of each leader's brain at how fast they process information, right? Uh some of us are faster, some of us are slower. Um, and I've had that done on me. I kind of know where I sit. Uh and ultimately it's a game of chess, right? But the thing is, is if we sit around and we don't do anything, we basically um we struggle and and things that cause that causes us more pain. And um, I think if we if we understand what the the main things are that we have to do, I mean I know that recruiting and developing will always get me through almost everything I do right now. And so if I have a tough day, a tough week, a tough month, a tough year, whatever, if I stick to recruiting and developing in the role that I play and developing teams and developing people, and I stay true to that, I'm able to work through it. And I think that's what I learned, but it wasn't intentional. It was by happenstance that I learned that.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

So that's good. So so when when you look at I was thinking about looking at at values, all right. So one of the things that that can happen um and and cap somebody's leadership is that they they adhere to uh maybe an undefined set of values and people for a while they they can see it, which is great. But then it becomes hard to for them to actually know what it is that they can sink their teeth into. Uh when did you make the transition of uh you know, like, hey, people are following me. Um what are they actually seeing in me that maybe I I need to multiply in order to take this from a local business to taking over this region?

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah. Well, uh great question, and I think it's a real question, Reed. Um that takes me to Proverbs and Proverbs, uh, there's something in there that that um where there's no vision, the people will perish. Right. But it's interesting, people will join the leader and they will join the mission of an organization. But the reason they stay is because of the vision. They they join for what it is and who they are because everybody ultimately wants something for themselves, right? And and I don't blame them, we all do, but but they need to see that path. And how do I get what I want and how do we create a win-win environment? And so I think ultimately, uh some of the stuff I've read here that you guys are working on is this yeah, you have to be evolving the vision and being able to show people. I call it spaces and faces. And when you're building a uh organizational chart, sometimes you have faces in some spaces, and sometimes you don't have a face for the space. Sure. And so you gotta create the space, and people need to say, Well, what's going on there? Well, we need somebody to grow and develop into that space. And they go, Oh, well, could that be me? Well, yeah, let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah. What are um so so the you you I mean, just incredible that you had the mentor that said, Nope, you're taking over my business. I mean, that's that's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah, it was, it was really fortunate. Uh I've been

SPEAKER_01 22:00

fortunate to have a lot of mentors but yes. It's amazing. So it makes me think, you know, at some point you're gonna say to somebody else, nope, you're taking over my business. What are you when it comes to their values, when it comes to their vision, comes to their leadership, what are you gonna be looking for in that person to to take over what will ultimately be a much bigger opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Well in the interim, because uh I'm at a spot today that I could walk away fortunately. It feels really good to be there. I when that happened I like almost broke down into tears and I was like wow this is amazing. And what I've done is is uh with somebody we all know is Bill Thrall and I have spent quite a bit of time sitting on my deck talking about this is um I know people he says that would that retire and would kill for your job. But you get to impact people you influence people all the time. So what are you going to do if you retire right? And so I really want to stay in this for a while. Sure yeah and so one of the things that I've been doing to answer your question is this I'm always trying to work myself out of a job. Yep I just always am like how do I replace myself at first that's scary it's really scary but what you realize is the larger the organization you build the m larger the need there is for somebody that's not even on the org chart yet. And that's really been my role is is I've I've in a sense worked myself out of several roles. And so um there's people that hey I'd like to do what you do well might be nine things that I do do you want to do three of them do you want to do two of them do you want to do one of them do you want to do four of them? And right now there's nobody that's really ready to take over all nine sure right um but there's people that are stepping up and I've I mean I just January 1st had a transition where somebody's taking on a bigger chunk of what I did and it's nice because now it frees me up to do more offensive things. Not that that wasn't offensive but I get to I get to reinvent myself.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Yeah. And so though those roles that you're finding people for these pieces of your the big role right what how does someone how would someone step into a role like that and and how would you describe the values that you would want them to model inside of your organization in your culture that that you are are modeling for them right like what are what are some of the things you would point to that would be important beyond their ability and skill with the the things at hand well I I like that you pointed out ability skill and then also values is um I I think I mentioned to one of you earlier but I went around and asked a couple of people in our organization said I was going to be doing this podcast here later today is there anything you want to that you would want to hear if you listen to it and they said um we'd rather hear the softer side than the X's and O's because they said that's what you embody and I said oh okay well thanks and I think here's a place to kind of do that with um I had uh one of my coaches and mentors teach me something um they said that there are some things that are not teachable and that is you can't teach somebody to care about others they have to come from the heart that they really care about serving others

Hiring Calls Right Seat Right Person

SPEAKER_02 25:35

and they may have good talents in sales but just to put somebody in a leadership role to me they have to they have to give a damn.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

They have to care right and so um I would not hire somebody in a big role in our organization that hasn't grown up organically within what we do. I'll hire somebody new for a a a more entry level position but if you're gonna be an executive in our organization you've got to come from within yeah and I would rather forego the growth and keep the culture than to sacrifice some culture for growth. Why is that um I think it goes back to um maybe an element of um control uh I know what's gonna happen. I know you you start you start leading a lot of people you know character but you're you're never gonna have all of it um nailed but I think that the other thing is is I truly believe and this is probably the bigger side of it is I believe that culture is the most important thing and it'll attract the right people. And so if you're gonna attract the right people yeah you may go through a slump of not finding the right people but when you do find the right people they're attracted to the right culture.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

And I believe there's timing in chemistry so people come into your guys's what the line of work uh because it's the right timing but there's also a side of it as chemistry. Sure. So there has to be timing and chemistry for that to happen.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Yeah so well so I'm curious Paul and I'm just gonna assume that through the course of your experience which is vast and for a long period of time in leadership that um as much as we would like to think we always make the perfect hire in every role and opportunity that's not been my experience. You guys probably have nailed it I've screwed it up a few times. And so I'm curious if by chance you've ever hired the wrong person to the wrong role specifically around embodying the values how have you handled those situations as a leader both to uh correct that or uh protect the culture that existed there like uh share with us a little bit about kind of your approach on the occasion that it just didn't go the way that you hoped.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah I'm writing two names down so I stay to the I'm gonna give you two examples of how I've handled it differently and yes I have made the wrong you're gonna crack the code for us so a couple things uh let me let me start off with um I now trust some of the profiling things that we do way more than I've ever done and we rely heavily on two profiling tools one is called uh the life languages if you're familiar with those and the other is called the culture index and both of them are really helpful when we use them together and um we start uh much I my I have two daughters that just got married and so part of the father of the bride talking was I sat down with both of them when they were 12 years old and started building out what the ideal husband list looked like. So when they're 12 they basically are not biased right yeah and so they can they can be very objective and so one thing that we've done is is we become very objective about what we're looking for. And then we trust the tools to let us do that. And I think when we have not listened to the tools and we've gone with oh it just feels good yeah I'm using you know the emotion we've made the wrong hire sure and I can think of one person in particular that in the last couple years that we brought into a kind of a mediocre level that was from the outside is we didn't listen to the tools. We didn't and we we were like we really need this person and and we felt this urgency to hire somebody and just fill a spot and the reality was is that it was um the wrong hire it affected the culture it created stress in our leadership team um and uh it was just it was the wrong move and um so we sat down and and you know talked to this individual and made some changes ultimately uh which was the right thing and you've everybody's heard this be slow to hire and quick to fire right and this person wasn't a bad person at all but was not the right person for our organization. Now I'm gonna flip that around and I'm gonna talk about another person. So this is a person that's been with me for uh 18 years and one of those people raised their hands and I know who they are so from a from a profiling from a a value standpoint this person's been around for a long time played a lot of different roles I was like hey I want to do some of the roles that you do and came in and did this for about two years and the reality is is that it was it's a she she was not thriving in that role she did a phenomenal job but she wasn't thriving she wasn't using all of her God given talent and abilities nobody was complaining but it was kind of cool because we sat down and said how you feeling about it and just talked about it. And what we discovered was is we needed to make a tweak and if you've read uh Good to great getting her into another seat which we both agreed was the right decision she's thriving now yeah thriving and I'm so happy for her and her husband and her team and everything that she's doing is that was just awesome. So I think that I knew she was the right person for the organization just recognized and she recognized too that she was in the wrong seat.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

And so I I have multiple examples but I sometimes you gotta have somebody leave the team and sometimes you've got to just move them to a different seat.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Well I think that really illustrates the importance of this idea of values right we're talking about embodying the values as leaders because if you're a strong uh if you if you strongly embody the values of a culture an organization then there's an opportunity for you to find the right seat but if you have a lot of skill and talent in a particular role but you don't embody the values of the organization there's actually no place for you on the bus. That's well well said right so when you start to think of like the importance and they they need to go together right you want to do excellent at the job and embody the values but you think of it in that illustration those two examples as um the order of priority is a really stark contrast.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah it is it is um the only way we really learn is from our mistakes right yeah right I wish there was a better way but I I remember my grandfather told me at a young age he just was like you know you're gonna have to choose do you want to learn from others or do you want to make all your m the mistakes yourself

Learning From Others Leadership Levels

SPEAKER_00 33:10

and um you know we've all heard something like that and as I get older I try to learn from others but boy when you're younger holy smokes I have I had to make all of them myself right so my mother used to tell me that the only way I learned anything is by taking the field trip.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Yes I think it was her motherly way of telling me I was stubborn and hardheaded but like you I'm like wow there's so many other people I can learn from maybe I don't have to hit my head on every rock you know yeah so absolutely I've read it in a few people more than a few and you know that it's it's almost like a badge of honor like well I'm you know I just I learned things the hard way and one time I was so frustrated with this person that was sitting in front of me and I just said are you condemning everybody in your life to suffering because you're unwilling to learn it turns out in that instance it actually went over well.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

It was one of those moments where you're like this this could be problematic. But it it is interesting right like as we as we grow and mature and maybe a little bit uh hopefully in humility right we start looking around and thinking like hey Paul just went through this thing he learned something maybe I should call Paul yeah maybe I should figure this out because the learning the hard way I have plenty of experience at yeah at that but I don't necessarily want all my leadership lessons to be that way.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Absolutely absolutely well you imagine this this just kind of struck me in this part of the conversation is if we're leading others which means we're likely uh teaching them guiding them coaching them consulting them whatever mentoring them whatever word you would want to connect to it all of that is is leadership in some form and we're hoping that they can learn from us those that we lead if we're not embodying that value by learning from others right right like if if Reed and I can't learn from Paul but then we go and lead our people then how would we expect them to learn from us?

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

So it's a good example of of what we're talking about here and yeah and sometimes you know um age maturity and just you know banging your head banging your head enough times starts to push you in that direction right yeah yeah well it's interesting you say that I I think of my journey in this and I remember one of these mentors that I had said that um you know you you become a leader and you're successful the best leaders develop leaders who develop leaders who develop leaders who develop leaders and there's a cascading effect and it was kind of a oh humbling experience that hey I was thinking pretty proud of myself you know for what I'd done and and it was really good but I think that what I've learned is is I call it levels of leadership there's a lot of leaders yeah but I think that there's about three different levels of leadership can you lead yourself in a small organization can you start to lead others that start expanding but then can you really get into the the third level is really more of the psychology of it and more into can you get the most out of people so that they become the best that they can be sure right and and it's really hard and it's it's a maturing process all right everybody that was part one of our interview with Paul Hansen stay tuned for part two next month and thanks for listening to the Sherpa Leadership podcast remember if this episode inspired you we would love for you to subscribe leave a review and share it with your favorite leader. You can always get more tools and resources at Sherpa Consultinggroup dot com and remember that leadership is a journey every step you take matters. So keep climbing we'll see you next time