Sherpa Leadership Podcast

Episode 17 - What If Isolation Is The Real Leadership Risk?

• Sherpa Consulting Group • Season 1 • Episode 18

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Leadership gets dangerous when it gets lonely. We sit down with Paul Hansen to talk about the moment many leaders hit, the point where “I’ll handle it myself” stops feeling strong and starts becoming a bottleneck for the whole team.

We dig into why relationships are not a nice-to-have in leadership development but the engine for real accountability. Paul shares how collaboration shaped his approach over decades in formal leadership, and why the pressure to always have the right answers quietly isolates leaders. From there we unpack a simple but challenging growth path: we start life dependent, we fight our way into independence, and then we mature into interdependence. That last step requires surrender, humility, and the courage to ask for help, which is often where the best leadership growth begins.

We also get practical about building a values-driven culture. Paul walks through his core values (faith, family, respect) and how clearly defined values become a decision-making framework that speeds up tough calls and lowers stress, especially for entrepreneurs who love chasing new ideas. We talk leadership training, 360 feedback, and the importance of informal leaders, the “Bobs” in an organization who tell the truth and raise the standard without needing a title.

To close, we tackle conflict and communication head-on: how triangular conversations and gossip erode trust, how to solve problems at the lowest level, and how FILE (Facts, Impact, Listen, Expectations) creates respectful, feedback-rich conversations that protect relationships while fixing issues fast. If you care about healthy teams, strong culture, and practical leadership tools, subscribe, share this with a leader you respect, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Choosing Collaboration Over Control

SPEAKER_00

I twenty seven years in a real formal leadership role. Um I've only gone against what my team wanted one time. And I finally went, wow, I don't have to be this cantankerous gotta do it my way person. It's actually a lot easier and a lot more efficient and a lot more effective if I do it together. That's where all of a sudden life changed and it became better.

SPEAKER_04

You're listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast, your guide to climbing higher in life and leadership. I'm Reed Moore, and alongside Chase Williams, we're here to help you break through obstacles, scale your potential, and lead with greater clarity and purpose.

Why Leaders Need Real Relationships

SPEAKER_03

I'm Reed Moore alongside Chase Williams, and we're here to help you climb higher in life and leadership. We had an incredible episode one with the Paul Hansen, and I'm excited just to uh continue this dialogue. And so welcome to part two with Paul Hansen.

SPEAKER_02

You said something earlier, Paul, I wanted to ask you more about, and that was that um being we're designed to be in relationship with people. And you you said it in the context of like some of the accountability that offers us as leaders when we're around other leaders, and we invite these type of people into our life around, you know, um modeling and embodying the values that we believe we have and ignoring that part of the flesh that would have us cutting a corner or doing something that we know is not quite right. Tell us more about how being in those relationships with others has uh shaped and and impacted your leadership journey.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, I I lean on my faith that you guys have as well, and I think of um, you know, Jesus went out and spent a lot of time with people that uh the the tax collectors and the prostitutes and stuff like that, and I think that's our opportunity to go back and and give. But I also think that was interesting, he also embodied a lot of time around his disciples, right? And I think that uh we've heard this a rising tide lifts all boats. And I think it's really important um in any organization that we spend time together, that we grow together, and the only way we really do grow is when we are together. And um, you know, adversity really is what defines us, but I think if we're not transparent and open to it, I think that um to to sharing what's going on in our lives and kind of the all the whole concept of a small group, but we do it in our own businesses, and and I as the leader am a human being too. I mean, I am not, I am far from perfect, and I don't have all the answers, you know. Um in my twenty-seven years in a real formal leadership role, um I've only gone against what my team wanted one time. One time in 27 years. So I'm I'm a collaborator and I want to be with people, but I think by d having a a culture of collaboration, the two way you two work, you're gonna hold each other accountable more when you're talking through that. And you're more like, well, I could listen to this person over here on my shoulder that's saying, hey, do this, but because I'm in business with with read or reads and change, no, I'm gonna do the right thing. And so I think it's really important. Uh, we are so much stronger. It's kind of that concept one plus one equals three is is really what leadership's about.

SPEAKER_02

It's leverage. Yep. And yeah, it's fascinating how so many leaders end up like either being or feeling isolated. Yeah. I think that's the uh it can happen that can happen if you're not intentional about what you just described. You find yourself in this place where like um, you know, you feel isolated or you are isolated and the level of accountability goes down, the level of collaboration goes down, and you become like the um you become you know the the personal trinity, if you will. Yeah, myself and I, as everybody Wade likes to say, right? It's like that's a that's a really risky that's right and dangerous place to be in in general, but specifically as a leader.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Loneliness And The Work Of Growth

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I I can talk about a little bit of a journey in that space. I mean, I have absolutely felt extremely alone. If my wife was here, she'd be like, um, yeah, you've definitely been down that path. And I think something that's changed for me is another mentor told me that the leadership, the organization will only grow as far as the leader is willing to grow.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And sometimes it's on a very personal level, it's not just in a in a X's and O's and books and and whatever. It's it's about their own personal development. And I've experienced that. Uh and uh we talked about it earlier upstairs, and um I I spent a lot of time in the last five years working on me.

SPEAKER_03

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

And um what's interesting, tying it back into feeling alone, the more I work on me, the more comfortable I am in those difficult circumstances and don't feel as alone.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. You know, I think it makes me think, you know, leaders, leaders need to be trustworthy and they need to be trusted. And uh it makes me think sometimes we as leaders get it wrong, and that is we think um our people need to trust us because we have all the right answers and we always know the the future and all of that stuff. When the reality is that I think a leader who's not lonely is focused on they need to trust who I am and who I'm becoming, right? Uh, because the rest of it I can surround with people with other skills and and and I'm not always gonna have the right answer. But there is so much pressure when you feel like if if this group of people are going to follow me, it's because I have to have all the answers. And that is an incredibly isolating event uh or series of events.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. You guys mind if I take this a certain place as I read your stuff. There's you just made me think of something that I I I sat here and looked at your ISERV model, and under the E, the engage and develop others, I, as you can see here, highlighted interdependent. Yeah.

Maturing Into Interdependence

SPEAKER_00

And all three of us have a really neat man in our lives by the name of Bill Thrall, and spending a couple years with him, he really helped open my eyes up to something, and it's something that I came back from my two years of working with him, uh, kind of like the rabbi, you know, the student and the rabbi. Yeah, and I I one day just came up with this concept, and it's I think it's pretty simple, but it kind of ties into what we're talking about, and that is um when we are born, and this applies to all of us, um, I'm just gonna ask the question are we in are we independent or are we dependent?

SPEAKER_04

Hyper-dependent.

SPEAKER_00

And when you say hyper, I I love what you said there. You can't even survive if someone's not feeding you. Yeah. What what's the alternative?

SPEAKER_04

Be dead. We die.

SPEAKER_00

We die. So why do we hate the feeling of dependency? Yeah, it's a fear, and the fear is we die. So all of us have kids. We were all kids. We grow up, and from literally day one, our desire is to become independent. And it was so scary and so important to us that the alternative is we could die.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

And so we spend all of our life until we leave the home, in theory, trying to be independent. And it's like we strive. That's where we're we're fighting with our parents and all that stuff comes from because we're just trying to prove that we can make it on our own, right? Yeah, it's like an American value. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, it is. It is. But it's interesting. Then something happens for most of us, and all of a sudden the opposite sex comes around. And we're wow, she's pretty cute. And then we try to have a relationship with this person, and we realize that um she's independent too. And I'm independent. And when you take two independent people and you try to make a relationship, it doesn't work very well. And it requires something. It requires what I think is one of the most important truths in leadership is we have to learn to surrender. And in order to move forward to where the goal is, is interdependence, we have to surrender what we worked so hard for, which was independence. Right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the thing is, is we mature, we don't grow, we mature into interdependence.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I think of the leadership journey, the more we mature, the more we realize we do need each other, the more I realize I don't have all the answers, the more I realize, you know, I need everybody around me to run this organization, and it's a team sport, the more I've matured into a role of interdependence. Yeah. Right. And I think that's what we struggle with as we try to grow people as leaders, is people are fighting the idea of independence, and they don't even realize it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And myself, I fought this so much, and when I finally went, wow, I don't have to be this cantankerous, gotta do it my way person. It's actually a lot easier and a lot more efficient and a lot more effective if I do it together. That's where all of a sudden life changed and it became better for me.

SPEAKER_04

So I don't know if that's so good. 100%. I I always think one of my uh brilliant marriage uh moments of a long list of uh early in marriage. I uh, you know, my wife and my beautiful bride, you know, we we've been married for about a year and we're sitting on the couch snuggling, and she says, Honey, I need you. Do you need me? And I thought, is this is this the first time I lie to my wife in marriage? Is this how this goes? Yep. And I and I told her honestly, I said, Honey, I love you. You're incredible, I can't imagine life without you, but I don't need you. So that was fun. Um that was fun. Yeah. But what it did is it it I had this really deep-seated paradigm. What it meant to be strong was to be independent. I I want you, I love you, I don't need anybody because needing anybody means that you're weak. Um, not right, not healthy. That's that independent stage, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um it took me about a year to journey through and come to the place of realizing no strength is actually being interdependent with other people.

SPEAKER_00

And asking for help.

SPEAKER_04

And asking for help.

SPEAKER_00

I I believe the strongest leaders can identify quickly where they need help. Yeah. Yeah. And yet if we're stuck in that immature leadership spot or the independent spot, it I don't need anybody.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I guarantee every single one of us goes through it. The question is, is can we walk beside others and help them get there?

SPEAKER_03

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's been a little bit of a um uh a coaching trick or a leadership trick, if you will. You guys have probably done the same thing, but I found sometimes if someone's struggling to maybe be as consistent in a certain way in their production or their business as they know they need to be and they want to be, oftentimes I'll ask, well, who can you lead in that space, right? Like you need to show up and make more calls every day, but you're not doing a good job being consistent. It's like, well, what if there was someone who was new who you could mentor in being consistent in their business? And and it's this incredible thing happens is sometimes they'll show up in a different way for another person than they would on their own, and all of a sudden they realize like I I needed this to lead this person to help them in order that it actually helped me, right?

SPEAKER_00

Chase, I couldn't agree more. It's when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Yeah, sometimes it's them.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, that's right.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. But it takes somebody else to see that. Yeah. I think uh I think of the word blind spot. Every one of us has blind spots, every one of us, and we we need others to help us. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

So I think about like uh, you know, val one of the values like humility would be the entrance point to maturing into this. Just just saying I need somebody, right? Yep.

Building Core Values That Decide Fast

SPEAKER_04

What are what are some values that over the years and maybe some maturity have uh become more valuable to you? You know, like when you were younger, you didn't necessarily think that these values were uh critical, but now you know they're aligned in the sand, maybe.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, um, well, to try to understand um a little more what you I'll explain what my my own personal core values are. Sure. And and um kind of how I came about those and and why those are important to me. Um first one is this I have three of them, and I think it's important to have very few because then you you rely on them more. Um but first one's faith, uh, and I'll come back to that in a second. The second one's family, and the third one's respect.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um but when I started this process of coming up with my core values, I had hired a person to do this, and uh he told me that it was gonna take longer than I thought, but it took even longer than he thought because I was stubborn, I was in that independent stage, and I wanted growth and I wanted the the masculine tough values. And in the process, we met 14 times to come up with my three values, and I did a lot of work on the side, and um I ended up crying three times over words because I was stuck. I mean, I had this in my head what I needed to do, and there's an element of humility that showed up, which was wait a second, what do I really embody and what's really important? And to describe what they are is I think it's one thing to have values, but it's what they mean to you. And to me, faith, there's an obvious element there. But but I kind of go back to my culture is faith beyond believing in our higher power and our savior, faith also I don't want people around me that I don't have faith in. I don't want a system or a process or something that I don't believe is going to be there or do that. And I think that I need to lead by example more there than anything. So when I say I'm gonna do something, I want to be able to do it. If that makes sense. The second one is family. And the reason I chose family was is I think we all need to be together and and you know, we need to we need each other. You're honey, I need you. I I need people around me. But what's also I need is is I need somebody that loves me, and when they love me, they're going to tell me the truth.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And sometimes I don't either want to hear it or I'm blind to it. And then the third thing is something that is is pretty simple around respect, is I'd always heard, and I have this wonderful guy in my life by the name of Jeff that that basically taught me this is you treat the waiter the same way you treat the owner of the restaurant. And you just do that because you don't know where you are. And if you want people to treat you, it it's all about being seen. I mean, our friend Bill Thrall talks about this is I see you, you matter. God sees you and you matter. And when you do that, you know, people don't care about what you know until they know how much you care. And the way you do that's through respect.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

And so humility, um, my story about my own values was coming up with my values was quite humbling to realize, oh my gosh, but now that I have them, I love to profess them. I love to go out and share. And I think it's people are like, okay, I want to be around that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. If that makes sense. That's really good. Well, and it's just a it's a good illustration of embodying the values, right? Because if you, you know, we could it'd be easy for us to say, hey, we want to hire people around us that are humble, hungry, and smart, right? And use the humble word, and yet for you to have to go through this process that you are confronted with needing to be humble around what was true to you, thinking maybe it was something different, like courage and honor and strength and and all the things is an example again of embodying the values that we would hope for the people that we're bringing to our world or that we have the opportunity to lead, etc. Absolutely. Yeah, and and probably not easy. No, the tiers, the 14 meetings, like um, and we talked about that earlier, like embodying the values sounds really good. And oftentimes it's actually really hard. It is, which is why it's important.

SPEAKER_00

I will tell you though, once you have a set of values and you and they are true to who you are, you get the the higher in leadership you go, the more decisions you have to make, the quicker you need to make those decisions, and the more value the more you're tied into your values, the easier it is to make those tough decisions on a quicker basis. Yeah. Yep. Right? And so I think it's it helps us have less stress.

SPEAKER_04

It ends up being like a bit of a personal constitution, is kind of the way that we think about it in our company. It's like you know, nothing, nothing even gets the time of day until it's gone through this. Right. Because if it doesn't match this first test, that's right, it's not worth a conversation. That's right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I've I've I've I've heard it said this be this way before, and I've repeated it. It's like these beliefs, these values, people say, Well, why do you have those? Well, in part because it's the rock that we break all our decisions up against. Yep. Right? It's the it's the decision-making framework, right? We can run it through that first. And that is really uh freeing almost.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's freeing is a great word for that. It really is. Matter of fact, it's really hard to grow to interdependence without it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well, it makes me think it's it's a it's um it's a safety net for especially for entrepreneurs, because entrepreneurs are wired to like think outside the box and like, I don't know, let's let's let's try this. Let's try this. And if it doesn't go through that first test, you can be working on something that's way outside of the values or even the mission of your company really quickly.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. Yeah, yeah. Squirrel. Well, oh my gosh, yeah. Yep, yeah. For the organization. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Training Leaders With Time And Feedback

SPEAKER_04

If you were so one of the things that um I've experienced, and and I've been this person, uh, and that is that you have young people that are maybe hungry for what they think leadership is. You know, life will teach them later like what it really is, for the good or the bad. But they they have a tremendous amount of drive, and they have a tremendous amount of skill set, and they have a ceiling, you know, it might be a higher ceiling than other people that don't have their drive and skill set. But when it comes to their leadership journey, there's a ceiling that if they don't figure out character and values and these type of things, um they might launch fast, but they're gonna stall fast. What advice would you give to a young person who's, you know, like they want to just take over the world and they have the skills and drive and this softer, um, maybe more mature, uh maybe more wishy, or not wishy-washy, but like, you know, it's just it's not as concrete is going to be the things that's that stops their trajectory. What what would you say to them to help them?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, um, so I guess I can tell you what I've experienced. Um I I was one of those, right? Um, and I've experienced a lot of them. But what I found in order for our organization to grow is I created a leadership development program, and we honor that uh very much so, and it's about a um roughly a uh 40-month course that people have to go through in order to be a leader. And in that process, there's a number of things. We got quite a curriculum that we go through, um reading a lot of different books, um, having discussions around them, uh making them think through things, making them think through their values, making sure that they have done some form of three, and we we put on a 360 analysis so that they understand how to receive criticism and what to do with it. And if they don't do that, then they can't be a leader. And that just goes back to my very first core diet faith. I have to have faith that I put people I put in a leadership position are gonna be able to do these things. And so that was the decision or the decider behind that was I needed to feel comfortable that people can handle this. Northwestern Mutual had to. Put me through their course to feel comfortable that I could captain the ship because there's no helicopter to come get me and save me.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And a lot of times in leadership, you are the only place. Sometimes it's at night in the dark in the snow and whatever, and you've got to do the right thing. And somebody's entrusting you. Not only the person that they're leading, but the person that put you in that leadership role is entrusting you to do the right thing. And so I think it's about development. It's about coming beside them and helping them and helping them build out their values, their mission, their visions, the design statements, the how do you want to handle these things and help them in basically dream and then also put them in some challenging positions to see how do they do it. Yeah. And so I think I I I really didn't answer your question, but I can tell you how I experience it now and how how we approach that. We have one of those circumstances right now. We have a person, I'm I'm ready for this. Okay. Well, let's put you through this. Well, I want to skip that. We don't do that. And we don't do that because that's what my values tell me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. That's really good, man.

SPEAKER_00

So I hope that helps.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, and really hard to hear for young leaders.

SPEAKER_00

And I found that every one of them every one of them, I can't think of a one that hasn't said, okay, and came through it. Yeah. But it's about a culture that says, well, I want to be like them.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well, and if if you mess up the them, you got a big problem. Yep. That's right.

SPEAKER_02

Well, there's a certain level, I think, sometimes there of impatience and immaturity that a leadership development program or working on yourself or being put in other scenarios is helpful

Becoming A Bob In Your Culture

SPEAKER_02

for. I remember um when I was early on in my career, I used to work for a big Fortune 100 company, and I was very ambitious to be promoted out of my first, you know, role. And I remember um complaining actually to, you know, uh he was a peer of mine, but he was actually the same level as the person who was leading me in the organization. I remember telling this guy his name is Bob, right? That um I wasn't getting promoted because of my boss. And, you know, he was patient enough with me, which he didn't have to be because I was being an entitled little punk, to be honest with you. Um, but he just looked at me and and and we had good rapport, and again, he was in the same level as my boss. And we were at a company meeting, I'll never forget it, and he said, Chase, you're not getting promoted because of the way that you're acting right now. And and the fact that you're blaming someone else for not getting promoted is just evidence of that. He's like, so they're not the problem, you're the problem. And by the way, I think you can and and you will if you fix some of this. And I was just like, kind of one of those things like you said earlier, like it just landed perfectly for me at the time. And I'm so grateful for that. I'll never forget that because of course he's 100% right. And it would be easy looking back now, or even for us, maybe in a certain level to be like, yeah, obviously. Yep. But at the time, I was just like, I'm doing the job, I'm doing it better than everyone, there's no reason I shouldn't be promoted, all the entitled, immature, impatient stuff. And it took somebody, you mentioned this earlier, um, to be willing to tell me the truth. Yeah, that changed just how I thought about that situation, and and from then on, in so many different times, I was like, I'm the problem. Of course I'm the problem, right? Like, welcome to the rest of the world. What do I need? What do I need to become? What do I need to go through in order to earn at the appropriate time whatever the thing is that I wanted? And that was, you know, that was a a valuable uh lesson to learn. It was hard to hear, but it was valuable to learn. Yeah, and I I I can see we're putting someone through a program and even them willing to submit. You mentioned uh you use the word uh surrender to the program, even as just an indicator of someone's willingness to surrender to the sacrifice of leadership.

SPEAKER_00

I love your story. Um I will go back and listen to this just to hear that again about Bob. Uh so thank you. Thank you, Bob. Yeah, thank you. It's an honor to hear that because we've all experienced that. And I think what's interesting is as if my understanding, Bob wasn't the leader of the organization, Bob was just part of the organization. And I guess what I'd like to really emphasize there is it takes a village to raise somebody. And yet it takes a culture to raise somebody, and it takes informal leaders like Bob to stand up and say, I believe in what's going on here. And so if you're not the leader, you need to be Bob. And and we we need we need more Bobs. Yeah. And we need there's formal leaders and then there's informal leaders. And I rely a lot on my informal leaders. I have producers that are big, but that they are really critical leaders within the organization. They just happen to be an informal leader. Absolutely. And and they're the ones that that were they're they're my partners. They truly are my partners. And and I want to have their back, and they need to have my back. And and I know you guys have that in your organization. I just I love that story. I just can't say that enough. That that that is such a powerful part of culture.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. It was. It's so interesting just thinking about um the impact of values in organization. Um, we have, you know, I've I've had the privilege of being in business for um well over a decade with several of our people. And and a lot of them are not in formal, what we call organizational leadership positions. Like the that that mantle just doesn't fit them well, and they know that, you know. But they are the brain trust of the company. They're the people that we go to saying, like, we're thinking about making this change because they're the heartbeat. And when you think about like leaders leading leaders, leading leaders, that's not all entitled positions. That's you step back from your company, you look around, and you're like, hey, there are 75 people that carry the mission, right? They they they live out the values. That's a really strong organization, the leader that's isolated that it's it's all about, you know, like me showing up this way. That's gonna be a really limited business.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it it is, and I mean what when it's about me, that's the defining moment right there. And and and the question is is are they struggling to go from independence to interdependence or are they truly stuck? And some people will die in independence. And I feel sad for them because they're missing so much of what life can give them, right? Absolutely. It's a sad moment, but you can see where the issue is based on like what Bob said the way somebody's speaking.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right? And and it's our job as leaders, I think of this. Uh in the last year or so, I've found that one of the most important things for me is this when I hear of a story like a young chase, or Paul could have been in that story too, right? And I'm sure Reed could have too. 100%. Um I I grab them and I say, Hey, why don't we carve out an afternoon and we go for a long walk? And we just spend time. And sometimes they're like, Did I do anything wrong? It's like, no, I just I like you, I see a lot of potential in you, and I want to get to know you. And ultimately they start talking and they start telling you where they are. And you know, you could do it in a lot of activities, but just spending time with them is so important because development comes basically belly to belly. Yeah. And it's not just here's a book, it's let's talk through that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. What haven't we talked about today that we should call?

Killing Gossip And Triangle Talk

SPEAKER_00

One thing that I could talk about a little bit is what I've experienced, and this is just me, I don't think this applies to everybody, but I think it does apply to a lot of leaders and teams, is how to in a respectful way have difficult conversations. And to identify what a triangular uh conversation is, and how um that is a cancer to an organization, is a triangular conversation. And um I think we need to be really almost like uh a bird dog, we need to sniff that stuff out quickly. And so um, I mean, I'm assuming you guys have talked about in past podcasts about triangular conversations.

SPEAKER_02

Well, how would you do define a triangular conversation?

SPEAKER_00

A triangular conversation is is uh I come into your office and I say, Hey Chase, uh did you it almost always starts, did you hear about Reed? And I can come across as though I care about Reed, and and you can see that, you can empathize, oh my gosh, Paul is caring about Reed. But the reality is Reed's not in this discussion. And when we create a triangular discussion that I'm talking about Reed and Reed's not present, that in itself is a cancer.

SPEAKER_04

100%.

SPEAKER_00

And so, oh, what did Reed say when you talked to him about this? Well, I I didn't. I'm I'm trying to be sensitive to him or whatever. Oh, okay. Well, I tell you what, we either need to stop or we need to go get Reed and bring Reed into the conversation. And either you can go talk to him or directly, or if you need help, I'll do that with you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it. So it's one of the um I was talking to a client the other day, and I just said, Hey, do you have a working definition of gossip? Because we were talking about that in their in their company, and they said no, and they kind of gave me some ideas of what they thought it was, and I said, you know, the the working definition that we have for what would ultimately be a triangular conversation is talking to anybody about anything where they don't have the power to make a difference.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. That is, yeah.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Gossip is the power. Yes. Here's the tricky part about that definition, which I don't disagree with, and and maybe you guys have experienced this, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, Paul, is oftentimes someone will come in and start a conversation just like you described, and I'll ask, or we might ask, like, hey, have you talked to this person about that? And they're like, No, I'm bringing it to you because they think I or you or you have the power to impact change there. And so, um, and again, they're they're painting it almost as like, I'm bringing this to you because I care about so-and-so, and I care about the organization. I thought you, because you're the leader, would want to know and do something about it. That's where it can get a little tricky, right? And so, how do you handle a situation like that if someone's maybe unwilling to go and address that directly? Yeah, but they feel like, well, but you should because you're the leader.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think of the word discernment is so critical here for us as leaders and the people that are growing up as leaders when they hear this, is I think what we need to do is immediately start asking questions. And you know, so what did Reed say when you talked to him about this? Oh, I didn't come to him, I came to you because I think you need to do something about it. Is um, okay, well, um, why don't we go talk to him together? And all of a sudden it's like, well, when they start hesitating, you realize that it is gossip. And it is like, tell you what, I can just tell by your reaction, you know, um, like you just need to go talk to Reed. Now, I'd be more than happy, like, let's just set up a time and I'll I'll just facilitate it. Yep. Right? And and all of a sudden we we realize, but I think it's really important to have an organization where you have informal leaders and formal leaders that they can trust you as the main leader, that you're going to step in and do that, and that's what's expected of them. Because it goes back to the for me, my value of faith. I have to have faith of how things are going to operate. I have to have faith in the people.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. We were taught in the military another principle, and that is uh all conflict needs to be solved at the lowest possible level.

SPEAKER_01

Huh.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and so you know, that person bringing it to a leader is not gossip or triangular, but it it it um it violates that other principle, right? And it's like, oh, you know, what's the lowest possible level? Sometimes it actually is the leader, right? Like you're the lowest possible level in the equation, but a lot of times it's it's it's this this horizontal relationship, right? Yeah. Um so that kind of pushes it back down if that's appropriate.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting, the thing that I would throw out around this discussion is I we've been really intentional about giving people a tool to go have these

The FILE Method For Hard Talks

SPEAKER_00

conversations. So maybe they don't need me. So I get the two of you to now have this conversation. And I'll I'll give you guys an example. This was actually somebody um from the military that taught me this, and uh the acronym's FILE, so F-I-L-E. And so I'm just gonna make this story up. So we have a business meeting, the three of us, okay. And um it's every every uh day at uh or every Monday at 8 o'clock. And Reen, I'm gonna pick on you, okay? Uh so don't know. Is it is it the famous? No, no, so I'm no, I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna make I'm gonna make the circumstance where your wife is being a tremendous person and helping a relative and she's out of town, and now you're taking care of the kids, right? And you've been showing up the last m meeting or two meetings late, and we're sitting there waiting, and we're twiddling our thumbs, and and maybe Chase is the the real leader of the organization, and I sit there and I go, This is wasting my time, right? And puts him in an awkward spot, right? So he would have a conversation with you, and we'd use this acronym file, and the the first thing we want to do is say, Hey, Reed, and this goes back to being respectful with you, but hey Reed, let me just name the facts. The facts are uh the last two times you've been late by roughly 15 minutes, and the other one was probably closer to 20 minutes. This time you're closer to 15 again. That's what's been happening. Now, what's is the I stands for impact. The impact that this is having is we have two of us now that are extremely busy, just as busy as you are, and just as important schedules, that we're sitting around twiddling our thumbs. And so when we take your time into account, too, that's three of us. I mean, that's like an hour's time that we're wasting within the day. And now the question is is he gonna show up? Is he not gonna show up? Is it a real meeting? Is it a not meeting? The most important thing here as a leader is the L, which is to listen. What's going on? And you say, Well, my wife's out of town, I'm taking care of the kids, I've been dropping the kids off, and there's this construction zone, and I find out that you say, and she's coming home this week. But guess what? Because I listened and I didn't come down on you, right, I'd preserve the relationship. Right? And what happens is either you have a really good reason for why it's happening, or the second thing that I've always experienced, and this happens more often than not, is their head goes down. And when their head goes down, they know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And then what we do is the E stands for expectations. So what are we gonna do from here? And it's a very, very like respectful way to approach people with conflict. And we use file, I'd say within our organization, we probably see file used three, four times a day. But it's it's it's how we maintain a relationship.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

One of my biggest leadership principles is as I call it the three-legged stool is there's no team that can succeed as a championship team, whatever it is, without a high degree of trust, without a feedback-rich environment, and a common vision. If they have those three things, it works. Where most teams fail is in the feedback. Because if you fail at the feedback, you erode the trust.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So good. Yeah. So I hope that's very good. Yeah, excellent. All right, my friend.

Trust Feedback Vision And The Close

SPEAKER_04

Yes, let's land the plane. Thank you, Paul, for joining us. This was just fantastic masterclass. And uh sometime.

SPEAKER_02

I think I got good notes here, but I didn't get them all. That was so good. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I appreciate your stories and appreciate you doing this. Absolutely. Yeah, we're all on this journey together. We really are. I love it. Yes, we are. Yeah, so thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you all so much for listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast. If this episode impacted you, please like, share, comment, share it with another leader in your world. And remember, we have a ton of resources for you at Sherpa Consultinggroup.com. Remember that leadership is a journey. Every single step you take matters. So keep climbing, and we'll see you on the next one.