The Human Layer
The Human Layer is a podcast for those who refuse to be optimized, for the builders and breakers at the intersection of emergent technology, political resistance, and the fight for a positive-sum future.
The Human Layer
The Quiet Parts Out Loud: Navigating Web3's Human Layer
The inaugural episode of The Human Layer Podcast, recorded at ETH Denver, explores the tension between technological advancement and human systems in Web3. Hosts Crystal Street and Taylor Kendal examine how crypto has evolved from its early idealistic days to its current state of institutional adoption, bringing both legitimization and problematic power dynamics.
• Introduction to the podcast's mission: exploring the intersection of emerging technology and human systems through unfiltered conversations
• Discussion of crypto's evolution: institutional adoption has legitimized the technology but introduced concerning power dynamics
• Exploration of "soft hypocrisy" - the subtle ways power and greed manifest in supposedly decentralized communities
• Analysis of how DAO structures have evolved from technology-driven to more human-centered
• Examination of ETH Denver as a "compression algorithm" where macro trends play out in microcosm
• Insights on community building versus extraction and when to let problematic communities fail or fork
• Reflection on building intergenerational, durable tools rather than chasing short-term hype cycles
Join us in saying the quiet parts out loud as we navigate the messy human reality of blockchain communities.
All right, welcome to the first episode of the Human Layer podcast, and we are recording this at ETH Denver, so it's a little loud in the background and I'm just going to get right into it. Basically the Human Layer podcast, just to give everyone a quick overview of what we're doing here. We are exploring the intersection of emerging technology and human systems through unfiltered conversations with industry, innovators, traditional institutions and community builders. We're basically saying the quiet parts out loud so our ecosystem can have something to marinate on, and this is hosted by myself, crystal Street. I am a founding member of JournoDAO, been a former photojournalist for a long time and have been in crypto for about since 2017, professionally as a community builder and a marketing comms person, and I'm joined by Taylor Kendall, and I will let him go ahead.
Speaker 2:Thank you, crystal. This is exciting. This is the inaugural, and here we are at eThinver, which is always a blast from the past. Yeah, taylor Kendall, my sort of core gig is president of Learning Economy Foundation, which is a nonprofit that is sort of at the intersection of Web3 and education systems and infrastructure, rethinking that model that I think we all know has room to improve, and also a co-founder at Transformative Impact Summit, which is an exciting event that sort of bridges the broader impact space. Been a community builder, as you know, for a long time, I say I'm a trust junkie. I love to think about what it means to build trust among communities, and also a social enzyme, as I've been labeled from time to time, connecting dots, building context among people, and I think we're both in the late 2016, early 2017 era as far as crypto and Web3. So come from similar timing as far as Web3 goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've seen the ebbs and flows and chaos of this wild ecosystem that we work in. I think we're just going to riff. Today we don't really have a show notes or an agenda. I think we're going to riff on probably what we've seen from the beginning and then what it's evolved into.
Speaker 2:What has it evolved into I?
Speaker 1:think that's the big question mark and it's so good we're here.
Speaker 2:actually, this is perfect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't have a good answer for that. What do you think it's evolved into?
Speaker 2:It's both being legitimized, obviously like institutional players, and money, and all of that is now in the fold in a way that it never has been. So in some ways, that feels good. It's justification for a lot of people that have been here for a long time, but the double edged sword of crypto is always here to rear its head, and it's like with all the good things about being legitimized come a lot of challenges and, like all the worst of humanity, yeah, the human layer is exposing itself Alongside, also feeling like, ah, this is real, we're not just crazy, it's not just memes. Yeah, the narrative is being reshaped in real time, which is fun but also challenging.
Speaker 1:I think that's an excellent point, and something that I think people forget a lot is we never owned our narrative, to begin with, in crypto, I don't think as a whole and now we have this concentration of power and greed and extraction that comes along with the thing we tried to fight against, which is centralization, but it's also a thing that helps propel this forward as BlackRock and as other institutions enter our world. It does legitimize it and it does expose it to a whole part of the world that we can never be exposed to on our own. But then people who are already in power or building their own mechanisms of power are more emboldened to lean into that nasty side of the human layer that can take us down very dark paths very quickly yeah, the power is being legitimized.
Speaker 2:At the same time, the technology is right, yeah, which you know. I mean that is, I don't know if it's unique. It probably is in a lot of ways, unique to just like crypto and Web3, because it's culturally significant. This is something that does have very little to look back on to say. You know, we've seen this play out, but this is why I love just the human layer as sort of a theme that runs over the top of this. We can't quite seem to grasp all the things that are still real and resonant about what it means to just be a human, building tools for real people in the real world, and the sort of atoms versus bits narrative is getting like there's a tug of war happening right, and I think that I mean that's obviously what we're trying to expose is.
Speaker 2:Technology is amazing. There are a bunch of brilliant things being built, but we should still try to look back at what it means to be human alongside that, and we have plenty of examples of where I think we've kind of lost our way and not built the best of the wisdom that has come prior to marry well and actually shape the next evolution of technology. And now AI is here, and we've got all sorts of other things to contend with, so this isn't going to stop. Buy the ticket, take the ride, as we like to say. I think Hunter S will come up a few times, but that's where we're at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and it's also happening on the global scale, not just in our ecosystem. We live in a tech bubble here, but we're watching this consolidation of power and the removal of humanity with technology at, you know, at the highest levels of our country and the government, and it's. It's fascinating too because, like the first generation of dows, a lot of dow builders use technology to control and not cut out the human layer, but to herd those cats. And then that first generation of dows really struggled because they had removed, you know they put bots in the discords and use technology to control the humans. Where humans need to collaborate and have sense making together in their own containers, with technology to support it, not drive it. And I feel like this second and now really almost third generation of dows that we're rolling into, we've all realized the fault of that and with AI now amplifying everything, you don't lock that human layer in and have compassion built into your frameworks in your communities.
Speaker 2:You're kind of fucked yeah, I mean very that's. It's hard to sort of overstate that reality that like we're on a very delicate edge. You know it used to feel like that was a decade, that like we were unsure about, and all that's just gotten now compressed into, I think, very real months and years. We're all going to be alive, I think, for things that are going to be very important to get right. Um, so yeah, the um, this notion of, uh, soft hypocrisy, which I had mentioned to you prior, but like I think that's what the things I'm trying to push back against, and sometimes it's explicit and like I think we both have examples of outward like knowing uh versions of of just coercion or, like you know, from the biggest level all the way down to just the, the very human side of. Now you're not quite being truthful, you're not quite being honest about what this means and whether or not it's. Is it about number go up?
Speaker 2:But the insidious part of where we now sit, I feel like from a human layer mapping well to technology that's going to be important, is just calling out the soft hypocrisy, the obvious hypocrisy, the FTX and SBFs of the world, like sure that shit's going to play out and we'll see that in the grand flames these will still happen on the grand scale. But I think the thing that I've been drawn to through some of the work, both in the education space because I think it's a lot of well-intentioned folks, certainly in the journalism space, all these communities that I think really understand how to try to get that right, like building that into the Web3 and crypto scene in a way that we can then call out the soft hypocrisy as well, say we've got to all get this right. At a very granular personal level, and that soft hypocrisy is.
Speaker 1:It's actually fascinating to crack down into that because there's a lot of people entering this space that are new to all of this and don't know what that hypocrisy is and can fall victim to these charismatic leaders we have in our ecosystem that have their own personal agendas through that consolidation of power and especially I see this in younger populations they get so excited when they see, you know, all these amazing things happening, but they're very it's very easy to have that end badly, Especially because that soft hypocrisy is not something you tap into until you've been in the space for a while and seen the cycles of it and seen what power can do to those who are in roles of leadership yeah, I mean, it's easy to be like the old guy or gal on the porch, like you know, waving your fist, because there is a version of that.
Speaker 2:That. Just you catch yourself like, oh, if you only knew, like prior to the internet, or whatever so, but it's a yeah, there's a version of it that has to be more constructive, that is just really being more direct and pointing out those, those examples of it happening on a very this is, it is insidious, it is like because it's not explicit and obvious in some cases, like that's where it festers. I was also like using just this sort of cancer analogy. We've seen cancers grow like some and again, this is why it's like really important, given what he sort of agentic layer that's going to come and clearly is being married to me.
Speaker 2:We're seeing it at East Denver, like, because, like half the things here are already pairing up very aggressively with, you know, some sort of AI. Some of it's just narrative, but obviously some of it's very powerful and it's we're seeing it play out in real time. So it's it's, yeah, helping, helping in a way that is just, I think, a little more. Uh, there's just coming with wisdom and care and there's a version of doing this that doesn't have to blow anything up or throw anyone under buses unnecessarily, but also being really willing to call it out when it's obvious and the shit stinks. We've seen these things.
Speaker 1:And if you don't call it out, it fractures. A community, be it a small DAO like Journal Dow, is small. If we allowed some cancer to enter in there it could fracture it very fast. Then you look at a large community, like where we're at now, and it might take a long time for that community to fracture. But if we don't address these soft hypocrisies or these dark triad power structures and begin to shed light on them, we can't rehabilitate them. And you know, I think that as these communities, as we get deeper into whatever systemic collapse is coming at us if it comes at us on the global level, these communities that we're building at the hyper-local level or even at a global level they're going to need to have light shed on the corruption so that they can heal and then become what they're really meant to be like. Why we joined these movements to begin with. None of us like sacrifice our time away from our families to deal with the bullshit all the time. That's not a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's why it's interesting just being here. Keith Denver has always represented this condensed week, now kind of two weeks, of just intense versions of these things playing out in real time, and so, yeah, it's both mapping it. It's, I think, really healthy to step back and map it to the macro. Take your geopolitical reality. Obviously our politics in the US are a very pointed version of it, but we've got these things playing out at that scale around the world. Those things take time, they are going to be slower. This whole community and the Web3 scene and Denver happens to be this condensed version of it that plays out. It's always a week that feels like it's months compressed. You know, time literally does get compressed this week.
Speaker 2:so it's like, how do we, knowing that we have this opportunity, because the technology is so powerful, because there are so many good people building so many good tools, how do we make sure that we are playing out the right experiments and calling out the bullshit in this micro, because it does represent such a fascinating like uh, compression of time that then can actually like be the bridge to affect the macro, like I think sometimes we get so and it's hard as we sit here and like look out over the, the showroom floor, um and again, obviously a lot of powerful projects, a lot of good people, but we get so lost in that being the end point as opposed to saying we do have an opportunity.
Speaker 2:How do we take what is here and actually affect, you know, the sort of broader realities that are affecting the 90. It used to be 99%, maybe it's now 95. There are more people that are familiar with crypto and Web3. But it's like this is still kind of the microcosm that we want to get right because of that compression. There's a compression algorithm that we need to leverage that can still I mean it is already affecting in real time. I mean the president launching a meme coin is real. We have to contend with this.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was such a rough one, and the compression is happening at the same time as the acceleration, and that meme coin definitely accelerated things on the crypto side and I hope that it was an eye opener for a lot of people who are very excited that that administration got behind our tech without understanding that that's just a snake in the grass waiting to do whatever extraction it needs to do for whatever their agenda is. It has nothing to do with our tech and making something that lives for the next generation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, intergenerational wisdom. I'd love to survey this community. And again it comes with the hype. People are excited, you know, and there is money to be made.
Speaker 2:I understand, sure that is part of this story, but like I don't think most that get into these micro-hype cycles of what crypto represents either are thinking about or really truly give a shit about, like, are we building durable intergenerational tools and communities? You know, I could be wrong, I don't know there and we know there's versions of it, there's pockets we were at at gfel and these other events that, like, obviously are really trying to center people in long-term commitment to, like, steward well, the environment, all of the aspects of just what's having impact on folks. But that's some of the soft hypocrisy. I want to continue to push back against and point out where and I do have now these fun things like what does that mean for your kids or their kids or their kids' kids? Those are probably things worth thinking about. Is it about you? And unfortunately I have a lot of versions of oh right, clearly it's just about you. Fair enough, ego is what's running the show and I will call it out and move on. You're not worth my time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, the ego is. Oh, so many insane things have happened from people who have never understood or worked with their egos. And, coming from a yoga background, it's fascinating to watch that in our generation we're basically Gen X and to see the ego have never been processed or dealt with and then manifest itself in really wild ways. That is definitely something. I'm glad you brought up GFEL, because I feel like that is something just coming off of that event where we were able to cross bridges between Main Street and between our tech, and I feel like we're at a tipping point now where there are use cases where we can just deploy it right now and people who are non-technical can get it. And I think one of the reasons this podcast exists is to make sure that that ego and extraction doesn't interrupt the bridges that we are trying to build for local communities, local businesses and really provide that infrastructure in systemic collapse or whatever transition phase we're entering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think most uh global, ethereum, uh global.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I want to general forum for ethereum localism. I was like I assume most will be familiar. We love our acronyms here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, it's the, I guess, constant mapping to community right, and I think it's what's hard, because any sort of blockchain project that clearly gets density, often it's financialized and it has incentives that are built around that and everyone wants to like. What does it mean to build something that actually scales and matters to a lot of people? That is now just like in hyperdrive, because you can do that with a lot of people, often millions, in real time across digital networks and because that's become easier and easier and the tools have opened doors to this. Broad, cheap, fast, secure. All the L2s like these things are opening, opened doors to this broad, you know, cheap, fast, secure. All the l2s like these things are opening those doors to allow that to happen.
Speaker 2:But if that's scaling and you completely lose track of, like the community, it's plugged into again. This is like bits and atoms. We're we're slowly letting go of the atoms for the bits, right's like, yeah, we're in a dangerous place not to do both and there's both happening, obviously, like there's examples we can point to, but yeah, more of that.
Speaker 1:And I think too, like what you're touching into, this is a real risk right now and I've seen it up close in the infra side where I do a lot of community or used to do a lot of community building are organizations, corporations, companies using community as their marketing tool and using it as extraction. We all know the airdrop farmers, all of that whole game. It's actually nice to see that start to collapse now on itself, because I think a lot of organizations don't have the patience or the desire to build real community. They want to use the community to further their end goal, which puts us back in the greed extraction conversation, and to watch that happen at scale as community builder is heartbreaking, and there are times where you just kind of have to let the community burn so that it can rebuild itself or you protect the community, and that's across the board. I mean, I see that happening in so many spaces right now yeah, how do you?
Speaker 2:I mean this is a question I think we're both thinking about and struggling or I'm certainly struggling a bit with is like when do you know it's right to sometimes let it burn means something more intentional, explicit. Sometimes it means stepping away versus you know, knowing there's obviously a lot of seeds of good across a ton of communities and what's your? Do you have a barometer for when it's like, definitely cross that point, let it burn, whatever that might mean again, but like versus hold on on. There's this point. What does it mean to salvage in real time? And obviously this is, this is the human layer, it's something you just like. This is gonna be messy, but you have, yeah, things you know you lean on or turn to to, to make those calls, like in real time with certain communities and projects. I don't?
Speaker 1:that's a really good question.
Speaker 1:I think on the corporate side, at some point it's out of your hands and then on that side, I think it's okay to let it burn, because if people have gotten value builders that are part of that community, they'll take that value and make it their own form, their own organization. On the side, I think it's different in the impact space or in the whatever we call this space, where you can poke the bear, you can begin to tear something down, but then another portion of that community can rise up and I don't say save it, but take in another direction or make it what they, what they think it needs to be, and at that point you can kind of just step back and let it take on that organic life. It really depends on who's behind it and who has the mechanisms of control and sense making. Come back to like do we have infrastructure in place to have solid voting mechanisms or have a mechanism for everyone to have a voice and let themselves be heard? But that's a really good question. I don't have a solid answer to it.
Speaker 2:And it's not like there's going to be some obvious lever or breaking point. It is going to be situational and just context dependent. But I like that. It's more like what's? Where can I funnel good energy and empower what I feel to be values aligned or speaks to me. That may still be, you know, caught up in something that doesn't feel, that still has soft hypocrisy or very hard, explicit hypocrisy, like you know. It's like oh, too late, like that ship has left. This thing is clearly we've got problems. We've both seen versions of this. So, yeah, I think that makes sense. That's intuitively kind of how I go about things, which is like find the right seat and like do what I can, but also there's a point where it's like that's not my problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at some point you have to walk away.
Speaker 2:It will consume you yeah.
Speaker 1:You've planted the seeds as much as you can, and then you just have to walk away or you fork it. I mean, a lot of DAOs have forked and I've never personally experienced that, but I've watched plenty of them do it. I think we haven't done enough social forking because we're so.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's such a natural. Everyone knows and understands what that means to do from a technical aspect. Um, humans have done this, this, keep pulling us back to the human layer, like we have always done. That that's you know.
Speaker 2:We are tribal by nature, but we're also forked by nature too yeah like that's so, yeah, being able to do that, having frameworks around that social like human layer forking, is, yeah, super interesting. I mean, that's a yeah, wild design space that needs to marry technical, all the actual products we're seeing that are really useful and clearly like cross some big barriers to make these things very like, intuitive and useful for a lot of people. Yeah, and how do you match that with the messy, forkable human social context alongside it? Yeah, and marry those things in a way that creates this new path.
Speaker 1:It's a giant experiment and that's from the marketing side. It's very hard to explain to CEOs or whomever that the human layer is messy and you can build a community, but you can't always control it. It's going to have a life of its own and you kind of have to walk that line of letting it grow and be what it needs to be, letting it fork if it needs to fork and knowing when, again like when it's time for you to step out as a community builder and let it take on its own life. But it's none. Of this is a given for any community, no matter who's building it or what their motives are. Humans are humans and we are messy as fuck humans gonna human, as I like to say yes, exactly, let's see we should give her a closure.
Speaker 1:I feel like we've danced around some good. We've laid the groundwork for this first season, whatever we decide to manifest for better or worse.
Speaker 2:I think people know us well enough. This will probably be the flavor. It'll be, yeah, a little bit abstract and a like diverging and converging. This is just how my brain works. I think we connect because of that, but it's like trying to pull the tangible back in, but also like letting big ideas yeah take shape when they need to. Yeah, it's fun.
Speaker 1:This is going to be a lot of fun. Saying the quiet part out loud is definitely what our space needs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe that's the one to end on. That really is, I think, the theme around all of this. Let's make sure we can say the quiet parts out loud.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Call out the soft hypocrisy when it's obvious.
Speaker 1:And then leave the mic open for anybody else who wants to call it out with us.
