The Human Layer
The Human Layer is a podcast for those who refuse to be optimized, for the builders and breakers at the intersection of emergent technology, political resistance, and the fight for a positive-sum future.
The Human Layer
Rituals of Relearning
What if the most important operating system isn’t digital at all, but human?
We sit down with Louka Perry, a speaker, futurist, strategist, linguist, and creative ddventurer who works globally with education systems, teachers, and leaders. Currently learning his fifth language (Mandarin Chinese), Louka brings both philosophical depth and practical wisdom to questions about learning, identity, and human agency in the age of AI.
In this conversation—what Taylor calls "a palate cleanser" after their previous exploration of zombie democracy—Louka immediately reframes the question of what he does to "who do I try to be in the world?" What unfolds is a rich dialogue about transformation, identity, and cultivating knowledge in an era of exponential technological change.
On Identity and Transformation: Louka challenges fixed professional identities: "The minute I calcify to an identity marker, I'm restricting my own growth." He advocates for seeing ourselves as "activators of learning" rather than locked into roles that may become obsolete, emphasizing that being literate in the 21st century means being willing to unlearn and relearn.
On Knowledge vs. Creation: "I don't think we are in a knowledge economy anymore," Louka observes. "I think we are absolutely in a creation economy." With AI making knowledge accessible, what matters now is "what we do with what we know" and "who am I being as I do things with what I know?"
On AI and the Human Layer: Crystal voices a concern many feel: "AI's taking up the quiet space." This sparks candid discussion about what gets lost when technology fills liminal spaces where genuine thinking happens. Yet Louka emphasizes agency: "Joy is a radical act today. Just to be joyful, just to choose that."
On Community and Third Places: Crystal shares observations from her daily coffee shop visits, watching different generations navigate technology and connection. Some young people leave phones untouched, having organic conversations. Others remain absorbed in screens, disconnected from surroundings. This leads to reflections on what real community looks like as physical third places become increasingly valuable.
On Building a 2030 Vision: When asked to envision the knowledge garden of 2030, Louka gets personal: "Relationships are at the center of my garden." He shares meeting his fiancée by choosing to turn around on a plane and join a conversation rather than plugging into entertainment. "I think the universe rewards people that notice." His vision involves becoming "a local man of community with really significant global community."
Key Themes
- Knowledge gardens and learning ecosystems
- Identity fluidity vs. calcification
- Knowledge economy to creation economy
- AI's impact on quiet space and liminal thinking
- Joy as radical act
- Third places and community in the digital age
- Noticing as practice
Mentioned in This Episode
E.O. Wilson on "god-like technologies" • Jonathan Haidt's The Anxious Generation • Harvard Study on Adult Health • Bloom's Taxonomy • "Hidden grammar" in education
Be sure to follow The Human Layer's signals on Substack to stay in the loop!
All right. Hello all and welcome to another episode of the Human Layer. Here with a dear friend, Luca Perry. So glad you could join us. We often end up in, I think, deep weeds of emergent tech, which you can certainly speak to, but I think this is a, especially after the last episode, this is a nice moment to sort of step back into the sort of positive optimistic space of education. And I told I told Crystal this would feel like a bit of a palate cleanser after our previous discussion on the idea of zombie democracy. So we can we can we can go into deeper geopolitics, but I'm also uh yeah, excited just to have your energy and smile uh be here with us. Uh so thanks, Taylor. Uh why don't you give a quick intro and then I've got a kind of question to to kick us off. But what is it that you do in the world?
Louka:Uh well, of course I'm gonna ask questions back to you, Taylor. It's just my thing. That's okay. The thing is like my my reframe question is who do I try to be in the world? And I think that reframe is I try to be someone who notices, who can create value, who can use my unique experience and skill set to contribute something to a space. And so, not surprisingly, I am an educator by vocation, passion, and training, a middle school teacher, actually, and then became a school principal uh and then kind of moved into design, thinking, and innovation spaces and run my own organization now, alongside a couple of other cool projects with wonderful humans. Um, and so what I try to do really is help uh education systems, uh teachers and leaders turn to face their future, to remember their own agency, to be champions of change. And also students of it, you know. Um I love languages, Taylor. You know this. Uh so I'm learning my fifth or sixth now, depending on how you define communicative competence, um, which is Chungwen, which is Mandarin Chinese. Um so I I think when this will come across clearly, I just love the process of learning and human expansion. You know, surely we're here to do something. So, what are we gonna do with this one precious and wild life that we have, you know? So I think that's for me. I I love kind of developing learning experiences, building leaders, and I'm lucky to do that across the world, although I'm a very proud Greek Welsh Australian, and I'm based in Victoria in Melbourne here. Um, on a very Melbourne wintry day, one week out from summer.
Taylor:So that's just how it goes. Well, yeah, we I mean it was it was obvious given the sort of uh on the fly nature of how we like to, you know, there is so much to be gained, I think, from the emergent quality of just hopping onto a hot mic and having a good conversation with people that share similar intentions. So I think that uh that's that's where we'll start. I've got one kind of uh question to kick us off, and then uh yeah. Crystal folks know you, but anything else you want to say up front?
Crystal :Not really. I'm excited for this conversation. I'm excited to just listen and chime in where I get to put in my two cents, but excited to hear two educators dive into it. So yeah, take us on the journey.
Taylor:You are you are certainly one of those as well. We all wear many hats. Um so let's start. So uh I guess maybe a high-level frame. I think we I like this idea of just um knowledge gardens. We've been pushing this concept, and a lot of this podcast sort of exists in this um underlying sort of both social but also deeply technical. Like, what does it mean to re-architect knowledge and learning into a sort of metaphorical space of uh of a garden? Uh so I think we're gonna use that maybe at a high level, but uh to to kick us off. So maybe just keep that in mind as a seed planted, see where it grows. Nice. Um and and uh given your broad exposure, uh, and and I think I've seen a number of things recently, you just describing how you know the world is changing right now at a at a rate that we have not experienced, you know, likely in human history. I think that's actually fair to say. Yes. And the future belongs to those that are willing to unlearn, relearn, cultivate a new garden, whether that's personally or in community. Um so how does that sort of just uh sentiment sit with uh you as you are sort of entering now uh this human machine convergence and emergence of new uh call it knowledge gardens, emergent means of uh existing in the world and sharing uh what you know and and what you bring to the world. And just sort of the evolution of the human layer itself uh in the current moment that is feeling rather exponential. So uh take that where you will, but uh wanted to just kick it off uh how you're thinking about back in on this one.
Louka:Um fantastic. Just so grateful to be having this conversation with you too. Um, and looking forward to discovering where we finish, because I I know it's very emergent and I would say kind of contingent on where we go. The first thing I would say, I love the idea of a knowledge garden, you know, and I know that you know, having a look at the work, it's it's kind of my sense is as an educator, um, and as a human, as a kind of capable learner, all learning is about understanding relationship. And so it's the connection between ideas, between constructs, the ability to contrast and compare those constructs. And you know, as an applied linguist, that's precisely what we do when we acquire languages of second or third languages, we're contrasting and comparing. And so you can think about that as a knowledge layer. How is this idea or construct different from this one? You know, and so you you need the comparison, you know, white needs black, black needs white to even exist. And you know, what is white is always dependent on what it's next to. And so there's always this kind of gradient gradientation, you know, I perhaps I I perhaps think. So the connection between ideas is just such a beautiful place to play, uh to be. I think, you know, and the human brain really has this universal um this baked into it, a universal grammar for language learning, um, as we learned from Noam Chomsky a long time ago, you know, in linguistics. But it also has kind of this really beautiful disposition. The other thing we know about the brain is that it's unique. And yes, we all have the same regions of the brain, etc., but there are no two brains that are exactly the same. So hypothesis if that's true, why would we ever treat two brains as if they were? Right? And so now we start to talk about the standardization versus personalization um you know, shift perhaps. So the other thing I always think about is is how do I deepen how how do we do transformation well? Right? And what does transformation really mean? You know, instead of improvement. And so I'm all very pro like improvement. I want to get better at the gym, you know, from this morning. I want to hit a PB next week, you know, improvement's great. But actually the bigger question, I think, if we get right down to first principles and deep self, you know, self-concept is who am I becoming? You know, and so for me it's what you know, what you do with what you know, right? We've we've heard about, but then it's actually who am I being as I do things with what I know. And right now we've actually got a depth to a model rather than what mass education systems were built upon, which was standardization and you know, cognition, you know, achievement, academic achievement, which is where we find our education systems at this point in time. You know, did you achieve academically is still the driving factor? We call this a hidden grammar in education, because even if we say it's about the whole child and the whole person and about who you are and blah, blah, blah, the hidden grammar is still, but make sure you get those test results and you do it really well and you're effectively doing, you know, recall, remembering some create depending on your complexity in the Blooms taxonomy or all the other taxonomies that exist in kind of the learning sciences. So I'm really interested not just in what we know, but in what we do with what we know, because I don't think we are in a knowledge economy anymore, Taylor and Crystal. I think we are absolutely in a creation economy. Knowledge now, especially now that we've got these phenomenally god-like technologies, as E.O. Wilson would put, right? You know, they there's it's so accessible. And so what has a premium today? It's not knowledge per se, it's application of knowledge and even things that we call transfer, near and far transfer. Can I take what I know and what I can do and put it into a new context? Well, I haven't been here before, but can I draw from? And then, of course, the identity layer is one I'm really curious about. Who am I being? Who am I becoming? And the minute I calcify to an identity marker, I would say I'm restricting my own growth and certainly my own transformation. Case in point, and I'll use an education example because it's closest to my world. You know, I'm a drama teacher, or I'm a biology teacher, or I'm a something too. So what am I preferencing here? I'm preferencing my subject and then my role. What happens in 10 years, and it might be sooner or longer, when we don't teach biology as a subject anymore. We have a transdisciplinary orientation, which we might call life sciences. Now, do I just, you know, but I'm not but I'm the biology teacher. I can't. What you know, there's a death and a loss around that identity marker. So I really think there's something around, you know, activator of learning as a frame for an identity with a specialization in knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, right? Because to your point, the kind of toffler quote, I think that you kind of paraphrased at the beginning, unlearn, relearn. That's what it means to be literate in the 21st century. So, how much growth am I experiencing? How many curious conversations am I involved in? Or am I just skimming the surface like a stone? You know, it's one of the great things. You know, I I like to, uh this is a bit perverse, I would say, but I like to kind of semi-trigger people by just like asking them deep self-fortunately. This is the right experience for it. It's my we get on, Taylor. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, and it's so funny, like honestly, I would even say in our friendship, you know, of the number of times we've met in in US, US and elsewhere, you know, I I don't know a lot of the surface things, but what I kind of am more interested in is like what's driving you? What is what is enlivening you? What is you know challenging you? Um, and of course, that's the core of human connection. And that comes back to relationships again, I think, in that in that web that we're a part of.
Taylor:Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The uh the the social graph that is sort of uh I'm I'm fearful of the sort of technical angle. I mean, we even speak to it quite a bit at learning economy and some of the work, thinking about skills, graphs, and you know, when you start to really map those like edges and nodes from an individual human perspective, but also the you know, infinite array of skills and knowledge that can exist within that sort of system, uh, there's a version of that that becomes uh that that lacks humanity in some way because it becomes structural, but I also love the to me, the best things are always you got I I think you know this. Crystal certainly does that. I love the word liminal. I love to find out what is in the white space, right? Between black and white or or good and evil, there is this beautiful spectrum, like, and you can't have one without the other. So it's like that's the the magic that exists within the the liminal space, all of all of that that is within this like graph, um which can, yeah, I think uh I don't know to me that that um can lead us into a space that like becomes less human, but I think yeah, there is just like so much opportunity to find more humanity there. Uh I don't know, and and you certainly point to you often as someone who seems to bring that forward and then also map it to practical uh I I get caught in like doing this and just you know philosophizing and being in that space indefinitely, which can be its own crippling. Like, you know, at some point you've got to move that into action. Um so maybe Crystal, you can maybe add some color, but I'd love to like maybe go uh move into like how you think about living in the beautiful liminal space and how that then translates into actually you know your multiple identities that you then take action on and affect the world. And it's not just uh yeah, it's it's not just dreaming for dreaming's sake, but it's making you know the world better.
Crystal :Yeah, I had written down liminal space in my note there. That was the only note that I took.
Taylor:There we go.
Crystal :So what was popping into my brain when you were talking, Luca, was um how does emergent tech, specifically what was in my brain was AI. How does AI impact that liminal space? I feel like that is a very delicate thing that's getting lost in emergent tech is when we don't have that quiet space for whatever relationships, thinking, critical thinking, then you know we lose that unspoken thing. And AI definitely I I I have I've struggled with it myself. Like AI's taking up the quiet space.
Louka:Yes. Oh, there's so much good stuff here. All right. Um yeah, I I reckon I only learned the word liminal probably like six years ago. I I don't think I'd ever really understood it up to that point in time. And of course, that kind of really coincides with me stepping into men's circles and like inner inquiry, you know, personal development alongside professional development. Um you know, kind of inwards and downwards, not just outwards and upwards. You know, it's a kind of that interesting model around, you know, expansion, I guess. Um and so the thing that I'm I'm really interested in is like what matters? What are we paying attention to? And so to your point, Taylor, around system design and the technical aspect of that, it matters. But is it is it sequenced correctly? And I'll give you an example from our work that I think tries to, you know, this is our attempt to sequence correctly. Often in the work that I've done, you know, with some big players like Microsoft and others, you know, they're like, we have a platform, we have a thing, we have a technical solution. And of course, the technical solution only exists to solve a social challenge. And so you should start with the social challenge, you know, what problem are you trying to solve is always what you ask as a designer. And as a futurist, I'd also say, but what's made possible? And who cares about that? Not just what's the problem, how do we solve it? So it's not just kind of converging, it's diverging and it's you know, speculative design and these kind of spaces. So for me, uh the name of your podcast is a pretty good starting point. What's the human layer? Let's start there. For us in our model, we talk about what's the learner experience, you know, in any in any context, and what's the culture that enables that learner experience to exist? That's the human layer. I'm just getting this now. That's the human layer, we call it human connection. Um, but then you know it's a Venn diagram, those two are connected, and then there's the management and systems, the technical and the spaces, places, resources, and that's the vertical. And so in this Venn diagram, you need all four of those things to be working synergistically, you know, coherently, to actually do what the vision of your organization is. And for learning organizations, it's human growth and development. For schools, it's the growth of a young person, you know, in a way that's holistic, but but also, you know, they have enough knowledge, skills, and the disposition so they'll be learning for the rest of their life in a learning economy, Taylor, where it's work and learning forever. So I think that's kind of one way that I think about the starting point. Like change is it's social, technical, and political, you know, and you need all three of those functions to be aligned. Otherwise, you can't, in my view, make real system change. But you know, a technical change without social without a social layer doesn't work. No one cares. No one's illuminated. But people that go to the streets and protest, they've activated the social, but there's no technical aspect. There's no legislative reform that they're particularly advocating for. They haven't built an adjacent possible system design. So those are the things that come up with both of your provocations. And I think, Crystal, to your piece on the emerging tech, I think a lot about this, especially around human development and childhood, right? Which is again where I'm kind of most paying the most attention. And I think we learned something from the social media era, which was that we in some ways we corrupted attention. And I would say that tech companies in the beginning had, like, you know, they always have these kind of beautiful visions, which is connecting the world and making the world a better place, et cetera, et cetera. But I think over time, the incentives corrupt that model, and you end up because you become publicly listed and you have a fiduciary responsibility and you're running this company. So as a CEO, you're trying to maximize profit because that's your job, you know. And so we should just explicitly talk about that. So what ends up happening is we move from this idea of, I would say, incentivizing connection through using these phenomenal technologies to incentivizing addiction or consumption. And that that bargain that we make, I think has had quite a detrimental impact in a lot of places. It's also had some incredible upside as well. It's not an either or, it's both and. And so this kind of attention hacking has been, I think, the feature of the 2010s, in my view, when you look at some parts of extractive technologies and the dark patterns woven into. So uni channel, you know, for example, like, you know, um short videos, like things that hack into our dopamine system. Dopamine has been like the thing to pay attention to in the 2010s. 2025, now we've got these incredible, you know, generative AI, agentic AI. But now, if we're not careful, we will hack attachment. And so now we're talking serotonin and oxytocin. And so we may end up in a place where we've got some of these tools, and we're seeing it already, frankly, especially with young people who have sensitive periods of development. You know, it's why in Australia we're the first country in the world to try to ban social media for under 16s. Now, I'm I used to think that's over. That's what do we do? I'm like a technophile. I love technology. I'm such a nerd. I like have gadgets and all these kinds of stuff. But you know, I'm like, what's the design principles? And I think I've really matured in my view around this because if we hack attachment, we do it poorly, we end up exacerbating the loneliness pandemic, not solving for it. And so the number one use case, as both of you may know, from the HBR article of my, you know, Mark Zal Sanders is companionship and therapy. It's the number one use case right now for generative AI. And so again, that opens huge possibilities to solve social challenges. But if unchecked with the wrong design principles, we might end up with an attachment, like a societal attachment disorder rather than an individual attachment disorder. So I know we wanted to be optimistic about this and we've gone a bit existential, but but there's other things I'm really paying attention to. And I I do see these technologies that are emerging and they're designed, you know, with you know, how do we look at human connection? How do we nudge people towards being better connectors rather than never leaving their homes? And life should, I'm obsessed with anti-fragility at the moment. Classic, right? I've just come to it. Um, I've been, you know, it's been in my field for quite some time. But this whole idea that you develop through friction. And so if if my experience as user-centered designer uh is always solving your problems, and your problems are the things that actually make you human, you know, like um uh like Whitaker said at South by, and she's she's the signal, the chair of Signal. I can't remember her first name, but she's professor, she's so fantastic. She's like, okay, so agentic AI, some of the things are can book a restaurant, can book a thing, can you know, do this stuff so you don't have to do that. But you need to open up your entire world to that. Isn't that kind of the stuff that being human is about? So I'm kind of just grappling with this moment right now about what's been made possible by technology, but how are we being guided? And if we lose our ability to discern well by cognitively offloading too much, I have really significant concerns. If, like Bob Johansson, who was on my podcast recently, the great futurist, right, from Institute for the Future, said, his tool is called stretch. And he only ever uses his his like companion to stretch and challenge his thinking, not to kind of say, wow, Crystal, that's the best uh idea I've ever heard. You're amazing. Oh my God. And you know, basically, navel gazing, validation, it's gonna create fragility in my view. And that's that's absolutely not what we need because the human spirit is forged through challenge and struggle. At the same time, we're trying to remove the unnecessary suffering in the world without removing the necessary challenge. And that I think is a very fine line. So I'll pause there, but that's that's what you guys brought me to.
Taylor:Well, the the two things that that brought to mind for me, and this is very it's it's oversimplified, but uh someone recently said this and it stuck with me, which is we we moved through this era uh, you know, for those that were uh of a certain age that saw the rise of social media and sort of web 2 into what it is today, which was all about who you know. It was this, you know, wild, and it still is a wild experimentation in sort of connectivity that then you know transitioned into uh absolutely just ad-driven attention, the attention economy, but it really was grounded in who you know, and we've certainly moved what seems to be exponentially into a new era of who you are and tech that true and to your point. Every every indicator is that all the data that's moving into these models is is very personal and very, very much about what is that most, you know, whether it's a medical record or this like very personal, you know, data set that ultimately is not about who I necessarily know. AI is not, you know, is is not necessarily there are versions of it, very small slivers that you know probably are playing the social connection game, but it's much more about uh yeah, who you know. So it's like from who you from who you know to to who you are, to me, should only add gravity to like we've got to get this right. And we've clearly seen that we didn't uh necessarily uh get the previous version, the previous version right. Um, and it's affecting a lot of younger kids. So that's uh I don't know if we want to that's that's still getting sort of dark and existential, so we don't have to we don't have to linger on that, but um it's it's what came to mind. And and then I was gonna say also this trifecta of like political, social, technical. I think often we very I I love to live at the intersection, call it the the liminal that is between those.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Taylor:But I think more and more we're we're seeing uh yeah very narrow versions of you know paying attention to one of those and and not giving credit to the others.
Crystal :Well it's all intertwined now. It's it it all lives together. The geopolitical, the you know, all of it is is one thing now. And I think what one thing we don't talk enough about, and it definitely takes us into that dark existential hole, which is probably why we don't talk about it, um, is the technical founders that built this technology. Like we really need to, and I think that's one of the interesting things about where we are in this moment in AI, is that now there's a hard look at these CEOs and these founders that have built this tech and why they've built it. And like I saw something completely insane yesterday, and I only watched like a clip on Blue Sky where Elon Musk was explaining to Joe Rogan about how you could push Grok to say vulgar things. And the way he and he the way he premised it was that he was at a party, and this gets into you know, these are the people that are building this technology at scale that we're all using to try and connect and and further our society. But what Musk was saying that one of the cool things about Grok is you could be at a party, bring out your phone, take a photo of someone, put it into Grok and have Grok attack that person and roast them in real time while you read it to them. And then he just kept going with that metaphor. And you just have to step back and think like this is someone who has an outweighed amount of power. He has way too much money, way too much tech, and is putting his AI inside the government inside of a lot of the ways that we used to socially connect. And that is the premise of part of how he's using grok. And that is not grok specific. If you look at open AI and some of the founders, you know, there's some really good stories. I think it's in Empire of AI, looking at the genesis of open AI and how it, you know, its whole story is an amazing arc and it's not even that old. And then you get into where we are right now with that technology basically showing that it is it was not designed, that it was not designed to succeed. It was designed to do whatever it is that it's doing, and that is this perpetual profit machine, and then all of the externalities that go along with that. And it just, I am floored constantly that this is where we are, that that these these tech bros, and and I have plenty of friends who are tech bros too, but it's like here we are, and this is what they built, and now we all have to deal with it. And that is just something that I think when I look at what web two did to younger generations, and now we're gonna look at what AI is gonna do to them. And I feel like that is the sense of urgency around this tech because it has great potential, but the way it has been unleashed on society again and again, we have not learned our lessons yet.
unknown:Yeah.
Crystal :That was at the end.
Taylor:I think that's bang up. Maybe something to throw back at you, Luca, which is yeah, uh where one other thing that I that I hope we'd we'd get into, which is like where do you see uh like uh myth and uh new, you know, almost uh you know religious level sort of uh ideology and and new like deeper truths. Like how how do we filter that or how do you filter that into your work in a way that again doesn't just feel like you know, performative, that there is like a connection, because it's clearly part of what's needed is uh you know new new hope that can live within this very strange reality. I think Crystal, you're totally right, you know, that that we're just in a new, entirely new era with new power structures that we have to be honest about and come to terms with. This is the current state of the you know, state of affairs. So yeah, I'd be curious just how you think about uh yeah, myths and new meaning that and and how you filter that in in a practice, because you're also you you're one optimistic, which I always I'm never gonna walk away from a conversation with Luca and not have a smile come to my face. See, here you you did it. Um but also like ultimately very practical. You have a really, I think, uh yeah, amazing means of of uh transmuting. That the deeper human layer into things that are real and and practical for learners or educators or folks you intersect with.
Louka:Here's a few things I would perhaps say on that. Notwithstanding, I think the in some ways the darkness or challenges that we see in front of us. And you know, I I many years ago stepped away from the techno-optimistic movement because I've I saw the same challenge of like the tech bro movement, frankly. Like the two are very synonymous. Um because technology itself okay, it can be designed for specific purposes and certainly dual-use technologies, which are a really interesting thing to consider. But just for me, like to come back to the the act of existence itself, not to get too philosophical, but I really believe like joy is a radical act today. Just to be joyful, you know, just to choose that. That to me seems like an act of resistance sometimes when you have we haven't even talked about media, right? But you know, like when you have the negativity bias in human psychology, which drives 80% of news headlines to be negative. If it bleeds, it leads, is a century-old mantra, you know, and so we have a very clear formulaic structure, and then the 24-hour news cycle that you know has created the protective parent instead of the play-based parent, you know, like these things have have real impacts. And um, you know, Jonathan Hyatt, who's wrote the book The Anxious Generation last year, and is just a phenomenal social commentator as well as kind of psychologist, and and has his critic, you know, critics as well, saying he's too overblown, you know, which I'll note. Um impressively optimistic for the world he lives in and how much data he sees that is.
Taylor:A thousand percent. I think that's where you're going, but it always blows me away.
Louka:We can change, you know what I mean? Yeah, because you could just it could just be overwhelming. And you know, I think sometimes um that nihilism is a is a road that can seduce one, you know. So I think joy is a is a radical act. I don't know about you two, but even uh the practices and rituals in my life, I think is what it's all about. And you can apply these into learning contexts and classrooms and schools and workplaces and whatever. But imagine just waking up in the morning and going like, wow, I made it through the night. I'm here, I've got this day. You know, like coming from that place, I find so powerful. And I I absolutely try to live in that way. I'm like, okay, I'm exhausted, but I'm alive. What a gift it is to be alive. And I think there's something that we just collapse into, which is we forget that whatever the purpose of existence is, we could also just say the purpose of existence is to exist. And from there, you go like, well, okay, if this is all I've got, what am I gonna do with it? Who am I? Who am I becoming? Like, what's my unique thing to do? What lights me up? What challenges me? You know, and yes, the shadow work, and you know, Jung would say it's about making the shadow conscious, that's that work to do, because we all have the darkness in us too, right? Around that. And to your point around liminality, like I've just did my bachelor party on the weekend, right? Because I'm getting married in less than two weeks. And it was the most ceremonial and enjoyable bachelor party I could ever consider. It was completely different from what my 20-year-old self thought I would have as a bachelor. And the other, you know, we call them stagd's or bucks shows in Australia that um I thought I was gonna have. It involved real ritual, it involved a rite of passage. You know, the old Lukah from last week is no longer here. He's gone, he's dead. The new Lukah has been born, you know? And I take that so seriously, but also held lightly. You know what I mean? Otherwise, you become a very serious character, you know, always um always perhaps overanalyzing things. So I really do think there's something to that whole part. It's for me, it's not even invention. Another way of thinking of it, everyone's gone, I'm an inventor, or like I'm inventing something. And, you know, to your point around the tech bros, Crystal 2, it's like, you know, this invention, look at my invention, which is, you know, imitating a human being and it can be hypersexualized, which is absolutely abhorrent, can I say? And you know, that we have sexualized versions of Groc or girlfriend.ai or character.ai, you know, all of them replica. Like, what the what the can I swear on this podcast?
Crystal :Oh yeah, please.
Louka:What the fuck are we doing? You know, like, is that the best we can do? That's how you're going to use your life force to create something. You know, for me, C V orientation is one thing. I'm gonna build my life, you know, to show that I've got done all the things and I've had a big, you know, nine-figure exit and blah, blah, blah. Right? Sure, well done. You won capitalism. But it's the eulogy that matters. What are people gonna say about you when you're dead, when you're in the coffin, and people are, you know, standing there saying, you know, Lucar was an absolute idiot. He hated people, he was a pain in the ass to be next. So, like coming from that eulogy place, and it's a little stoic, which of course I've also been influenced by, right? Courage, justice, the virtues, memento mori. I'm gonna die, team. I'm just letting you know, I'm gonna die. And guess what? If you listen to it, you're gonna die too. But isn't it interesting that part of this same movement are also trying to not die? Like, you know, Brian Johnson, et al. You know, Peter Atiya, yeah, others that I think, you know, do pretty good longevity work. I'm all for health span, but this whole idea, the transhumanist idea that Peter Thiel kind of advocates, and you know, I'm sure you both saw the car crash of an interview that he gave recently where I was trying to, you know, should humanity survive? And he couldn't really answer the question, right? He's like, well, kind of, not really, you know, it's like, I just think, what are we trying to do? I are we trying to connect with people, see people? Am I waking up every day and giving it a good shot and trying to notice my patterns and come from a place of like deep love? Um, am I building my light, love, and power in a way that helps me to serve the people that I'm working with? Or am I not doing that? For me, it's not invention, it's remembering. And I think that's, you know, I haven't said this to you both, but the school where I worked is a First Nations community. It's like a reservation school in the US, you would probably call it. And so we've got tens of thousands of years of connection uh here in Australia of First Nations have to country, to story, storylines. Talk about mythos, Taylor, entire dream time, an entire kind of ontology, cosmology that's different from the kind of Western mainstream modernization, tech is progress narrative. So for me, it's like I to remember my agency. I can choose, I can, I'm I'm always choosing. I might not be conscious of it, but I can presence for myself to this is a choice. Well, we don't want to live with the consequences of our choices. So we pretend we don't have a choice. Note language like I'm time poor. I couldn't do that. There's no way. I'm sorry, I got busy, Crystal. I couldn't call you back. No, no, I chose to not call you back because I chose to do something else. And you know, to be okay with that. You know, time poor is such an interesting language. We talk about it in schools all the time. I'm so time poor at the moment. I'm sure you guys have used this phrase as well, right? Oh, yeah. It's not true. It's the opposite. We are tired of it. Talk about it, it is the religion of education, actually. Is to, yeah. You know, what's so that's all we have is time. What else do I have? I got time, I got my life force, I got a brain, I got a body, I got some talents and skills I've developed. That's it. And so from that place, what do I create? What do I build? And we can absolutely must absolutely, Crystal, to your bit, we must use the latest technology, god-like technologies, to improve our current status in the world, you know, as a collective. We have to use them. It's not like I'm not an I'm not a naturalist that says we should unplug from everything and then go live in the forest, right? As enticing as that might be, you know, it also means that we're irrelevant, to be frank. You know, what we want to be is kind of deep humanists, not techno optimists, not completely disconnected on a spiritual journey, doing ayahuasca for the 50,000th time in the Amazon. You know, like you got to be on the court, you gotta be here. So, how can we be bridges and think about this is how I can use tech for good, which of course has been co-opted as a frame, so put all tech into that. But I I do fundamentally believe that it can be done. I think the learning economy is a great example of that, Taylor. This is an infrastructure layer that if we do it well, we know can kind of help communicate people's strengths, can help connect them to opportunities, you know? That's that's where I want to place my life force. It's what I'm trying to do at this point in time in a way where I don't really have a plan to follow because the complexity is too high. But certainly I'm doing my best to be clear, at least about this is what I think matters. Once we've answered that, then we can say, and what works, because we got to talk about effectiveness before we get into efficiency. And I think the efficiency, um efficiency is seductive too, because it feels like progress. I I I sent twice as many emails today. Fantastic. Did any of them matter? You know, so that's there's my hobby horse, you know, probably a bit higher than that. There's me from the mountaintop, really kind of putting forth the proposition.
Taylor:No, I think it's, I mean, it's it's beautiful and it's yeah, it in some ways this started out of the uh this notion in in Web3 circles of you know, new infrastructure that are these layer one blockchains. And it's it's funny, this idea of layer zero came and went so quick, and it's still there, but that was always to me the interesting thing to uh, you know, as much amazing things as we can and have created as humans, uh from a you know, from a technology lens, of course, you know, it always, you know, at root comes back down to the human layer, to that, to that layer zero. Stop talking about anything anything beyond that until we feel like we've really got a handle on one, yes, what what I'm becoming, what I can do as an individual, but then yeah, how I relate and and interact with those around me. Um and we're clearly at a point in time where everybody's grappling with there's unfortunately a lot of folks that are going to be on the efficiency train. This is, you know, the minute you just like it's so seductive right now to uh you know spend all your time focused on how to make use of the next LLM and what that can do from an efficiency standpoint. But man oh man, there's a lot of unfortunate, very hollow humans that are the byproduct of that being the focus, you know.
Crystal :I want to go back to what you were saying, Luca, about um rite of passage, because I think that also ties into what you just said, Taylor, with um, especially with young men, but that lack of rite of passage now. Um we studied this. I graduated a couple years ago with a yoga degree from a Buddhist university here in Boulder. Um, it was amazing. That's actually where I learned the liminal space, um like in practice. And one of my eco-site classes, we looked at the rite of passage and the lack of that and what that does to young people, but especially young men, without that, you know, here you you have now entered manhood. And what, you know, what does that look like in the modern era? And then to bring it right back into tech. Um, one of the things I did in crypto is community building for developers and trying to catch young devs at a point where they're you know really getting into their skill set as a developer and try to put compassion in the code by teaching just tiny little principles about empathy. And because most of them lack that right of passage and really struggle with human interaction, and you know, rightfully so, a lot of them are on um, you know, neurodivergent or just have awkward experiences with humans. And as someone as a Gen X who started in bartending and can understand humans, um, I kind of see it as my role to help them at least find a way to translate so that when they do build the code that powers our tooling, they understand the human that there is a human that will be using that and that this tool needs to have the design elements of empathy in them. And now we're seeing that I work in explainable AI and it's so different than small language models are so different than large language models, and it really goes back to who the designers were and what was their design process when they were building this thing. And I don't think we ever we don't, I didn't until recently um take that into account. You know, what what were you thinking when you said, hey, this bot is only gonna be sexualized? What you know, what is is it just profit? Then if it is, then fine, call it what it is. Like, hey, we gotta pay the bills, we're gonna do it through porn. That's how the internet got started, basically. Um but you know, that I think that that's yeah, that's my two cents there.
Louka:Uh yeah, Crystal, beautiful. I uh on the right of passage thing, it's been I think it's become such a cornerstone in my own life. Um, and again, because I'm someone that's really thinking about development and you know, and multidimensional development, so not just psychological, not just cognitive, but social, emotional, physical, spiritual, all of it, you know, because that's who we are. We're an embodied being to your yoga training. We have a body. Clearly, that's like a design feature, not a bug. Although some people think it's a bug and want to exit their body. There's something about like embodied cognition, distributed cognitive, all the all those things that we know from those learning sciences. But the right of passage, the right of passage, like um, it's not even a framework, really. You know, it's kind of like a way of being, is just so embedded into our human story. And as you would have learned, and if for the listeners that don't know, you know, this is something that's quite universal across um our development as a species, across all different tribes, all the different First Nations cultures had different, still have different rites of passage. And kind of so did we in kind of our whatever the, however you might frame this, you know, kind of modern Anglo-Western, you know, weird context, you know, Western educated, you know, industrialized, rich, um, democ democratic, although perhaps a bit zombie democratic now, depending on how we how we're feeling all the day. Um, you know, so that's like the reality for us. We have stripped sacredness from our world. And I think we've done so to the detriment of every single human being and to our communities by extension. Because we're here to develop, you know, the whole idea as an educator from the K-12 sector, the whole idea that at 17 you're good. Get in the workforce. Thanks very much. What a crazy idea. You know, we know from Robert Keegan and many others in adult psychology spaces. That's just cool. That's the end of the beginning. That's the beginning of the next. And so, you know, can I move from a socialized mind to a self-authoring mind to a self-transforming mind? Can I hold two disparate ideas in mind without being captured by either one? That can I sit with cognitive dissonance? Can I sit with my own emotions and just be with it? And then choose and then act, not become paralyzed. But you know, all of that is just like a development, and the rites of passage have literally evolved, as we have, to be the perfect vehicle to help us move. The challenge is it involves death, and none of us really like death, including egoic death, right? You know, I have to let I'm no longer this adolescent. And for me, I'm no longer a single man, you know. That's literally the portal of marriage I'm stepping into. That's like where I'm right at. So there's a death to that, and then of course, there's a beginning. And so the rite of passage is designed to hold people through that from the separation to the challenge to the integration. And one comment I'd make on this, because I I just saw someone put up a post from um oh, the Irish MMA fighter who um Conor McGregor recently. And you know, he he's uh to his credit, he's gone and looked at some trauma through using a psychedelic modality in Mexico or somewhere, right? Um, but of course, when you do that and you have these kind of transcendent states, or you know, you jump into self-complete ego death, which it sounds like he's experienced in the way he's communicated. The biggest challenge is you return to your old self because the entire environment is exactly the same. Same friends, same substances, same, same like violent kind of behavior. And you know, to that to your piece on Elon, think about Grok. Yeah, look at how good Grok is at negging on someone, at roasting them. You could use one of these technologies to say, can you this is my friend? Can you find the most powerful ways to honor who this person is? You could choose to honor them instead and do an honoring, which often is part of a rite of passage, by the way. It's certainly part of kind of my social network, my social network and what we do with each other is to when we see a behavior that is hard or a challenge, but identifies where that person wants to be, we honor them for it. So the point is the integration is often the missing part in that rite of passage because you and you go back, you've kind of you've met God, you've met whatever, you've transcended. And this is the challenge with ecstatic states and ecstasies as a construct. And Taylor, I'm getting a bit Jamie Will here, which you and I would know all about. You know, if you're just in the ext in the ecstatic all the time, you're chasing peak experience. And I've definitely been on my own journey that with like extreme sports and traveling the world and all the stuff. But you know, it's you know, the the ecstatic state plus community, you know, and then catharsis. And this is a Jamie Will model, so I'll reference it, but it's ecstasis, catharsis, communitas. And that's kind of the the triangle that can hold us if we're gonna be leaders, if we're gonna step into this life fully, give it a great shot, and then get to the end of it and go, like, wow, that was quite a right. I would recommend that to others. You know, I think that's that's kind of what I think about in terms of how do we bring rites of passage in tangibly. We should do it in every single school, every transition, pre-prep to school, you know, prime elementary school to high school, high school to college. And if we don't hold them intergenerationally with eldership, it gets a bit sideways. Like, you know, we have here uh we call it schoolies. I don't know what you call it in the United States, right? But it's hey, we finished school, and everyone just goes and gets absolutely intoxicated, like drunk as could be, like down. And of course I did this too. That's your initiation into adulthood, is just drink not held by an elder, no circle time, no feeling through, nothing of that. Whereas in the community where I've worked as a teacher, I saw I was I was privy to secret men's business, which was one of the greatest honors as a non-Aboriginal man I could I could have, is see these boys die and the young men be born in the most ritualistic and incredibly transformational way. And you know, there's a whole bunch of symbology and and ritual practice that's part of that. So that's that's kind of my take on where you know we've got such an opportunity of remembering to bring these rites of passage into everything, even in organizations. If you're a L and D leader or C-suite, what are the rites of passage? You know, this implicates positive organizational scholarship and positive cultures, all of it kind of gets involved, I think, in my view.
Taylor:Yeah, it it it is a I mean, it's certain it was certainly my experience, you know, that I didn't come to terms with until later, realizing that those transitional moments, I was fortunate. There were some moments through sport and other things that sort of represented that.
unknown:Yeah.
Taylor:But I think for most, like without knowing it, those transition points into, you know, whatever that version of sort of formal education, that becomes that moment. And it's it is there's part of us that's remembering why that's important. But if that's not tended to with great educators and with an experience on the other side you're proud of, yeah, then you know, you uh yeah, you you end up gripping for life. This is, I think, what happens to a lot of these, you know, you it doesn't take much to look back at sort of the upbringing and sort of the uh the lives that were led by a lot of the the big you know broligarchs now running the show, yeah. They had very strange transitional moments, whether it's not necessarily education, but those things play out because it's a very human, uh yeah, it's a very human quality to to need that that guidance and those that do remember, not just within a lifetime, but like generational memory. Um so it's uh I I think it at least points to like this is more important than just uh yeah just going through the the process of like, yep, go through school, get the degree, get onto the we we we kind of take it as this, yeah, just like uh unspoken flow that is how it's supposed to be, certainly in the West. Um, but these are important moments. So thank you for being a part of someone I point to that's understands that importance and is doing it well.
Louka:Um I don't know about doing it well. I think I have to be a caveat here. Like doing it human. I am as susceptible like every other human. I might be able to talk all this talk, but it is as much the most human experience for me too. I have to grapple, struggle with it all. I might know all the frameworks, but in some ways I'm still, you know, the heuristics exist for a reason. They're mental shortcuts, you know. And so how do you sit in? And community is so much the solution. And I know that you two are working directly on that, right? And this is where the technical layer comes in that I'm very interested in too. Like, what's the future of community? Because it's not a social media page, right? That's not it. That's not that's not skin in the game. There's something about having skin in the game. Like, I am accountable to these people. I know that my friends, if I get a bit off the rails, they would call me out straight away. But hey, dude, like, why did you do that? It this happens to me in my life. I do something, I miss the banter context a little bit. I'm a bit too harsh or something. And someone goes like, dude, what you said really hurt me. And this literally happened on the weekend. I was like, oh God, that sucks. I'm so sorry. I love you, dude. You're amazing. You know, I just I'm sorry about that. I was triggered in this way, you know that that that's the work, you know. That um, but definitely system design, we can absolutely reinsert these things in key moments so that we don't have adolescent psychology in an adult body running a big company, it's a neo-feudalist now, you know. And so this is, I think, kind of the issue. And eldership for me, Taylor, is like a real bit. Who's your mentor? And schools didn't do this well at all because of course you put all it's horizontal, it's batch state, kids all the same age together. That never used to happen in in, and it still doesn't happen in First Nations communities. It's vertical groupings, might be family, might be something else. There's always someone there who's further along on that journey. So, hey you, no, not that behavior. And they listen because there's also those transitional moments that create a certain stratus, status, and um gravitas. Or what's the word now? Aura is what you say now if you're a gin alpha. Vibes have have got have moved into aura, aura vibes, yeah.
Taylor:Yeah, that's right. I'm a millennial, so I don't know. I'm losing touch. Yeah. Uh well uh I've got one thing to to sort of finish on, but uh yeah, anything else, Crystal? And then yeah, I want to give you a chance to for those that lasted this long in this wild meandering, as we knew it would, this was somewhat selfish, but did not want structure intentionally because you're one of the few that I think is almost more effective in that sort of space. Yeah, we don't need to use structure here. That's for other people. It's how do humans operate? Yeah, not not not often with uh fully clear bright lines and and scaffolding. It's usually pretty messy and tension is part of it, should be.
Crystal :Um Yeah, oh sorry, go ahead.
Taylor:No, no. I I've got one final one more one more selfish ask, so I want to land on that. So go for it.
Crystal :I've got one closing thought on community. Um, what you were just saying there, Luca, about um, you know, what is community gonna be? And I think oh, it can be so many things, but I think one of the beautiful things to come out of our current shit show is that people now understand the value of the third place, and it's not just what Starbucks appropriated. The third place is it. And now that we all need to be around humans again, um, that is becoming something that I'm seeing a younger generation focus on. The younger generations are embracing analog, um, which I think is fascinating. And also seeking out human spaces. Um, they just opened a coffee shop near my where I live, and it's uh it's a regional chain. It might be a national chain, but it's a smaller one, and it's literally 50 yards away. And my dog and I are coffee shop hounds. So we walk over there every day, and it's not my normal coffee shop. It doesn't have a lot of diversity. I'm in kind of a bougie neighborhood in, you know, Boulder County. And at first I was like, well, this is not my community. I'm like, bitch, this is where you live. This is your community. Sit and listen and learn. So I've been going there every day since June, just about, I mean, every other day. And it's fascinating to watch the younger generations come in there because we're right um near the local schools. So sometimes like the parents will drop off the kids and just leave the place filled with like 10-year-olds running around. I'm like, oh my God. And I don't have children, so I'm like, okay, let's just watch. I have an eight-year-old niece. So I can see I can see her in them sometimes. And some pods of friends will not touch a phone. And this is from like age eight up through teens. They don't have any phones on the table, they're playing games with each other. And I love listening to conversations, they're just so organic and like human. And then you've got, you know, some of the older kids on their electric bikes and they're all in their phones and they're not engaged with their surroundings at all. And it's interesting to sit in a coffee shop like that and watch the different layers that are coming in there, seeking connection again. And a lot of older, like when I'm there in the mornings, there's a lot of elderly that are there with their caregivers that are, you know, experiencing Alzheimer's. And then you've got young kids at the table next to them. So it's co-generational. And I just have to think that when the shit does hit the fan, I do know what my community looks like here. Even though I normally drive across town to get to a coffee shop that's more diverse and it's more like my people, this, these are my people too. And it's it's interesting the lack of a third place and the chaos and the social medias is forcing me into community containers that aren't mine but are still fascinating.
Louka:So interesting. This this will connect us. That one.
Taylor:No, this is like actually pretty good. Let's land the plane with this because I wanted to uh give like what does that third space look like for Luca? Let's let's map out, say, the 2030 knowledge garden within your world that is now uh supported by I've I've I've met your better half and others that are you're you are not that you needed more, but man, you are uh yeah, a force to be reckoned with, I think, given those that surround you. Um what what does that look like? Like what what what in you know, say five years from now, I think 2030 has this interesting gravity for many reasons. Um what's what's the soil, what's the water, what's the architecture, what are what are the what are in the roots? Um what are the what are the pests that we have to make sure we we keep out of the garden? Yeah. Um maybe in a couple minutes, paint the paint the picture of yeah, what that third space looks like for you in the next four or five years.
Louka:That's so good. I I think for me, I'll say a few things, a few personal, a few perhaps a bit, you know, societal. Um it just comes back to like what matters, what matters in the end, you know? And in 2030, I I actually think we will have remembered the human layer. Um, because I I've been seduced like everybody else by here. The latest X. I mean, we're in the middle of this AI revolution right now, and it's like, well, here's the latest text a video and goes like, Oh my god, you know. But to me, it's like it's it's interesting, but it's not the main game. The main game is like sitting down with a sibling and saying, like, what's happening in your life? Or going to your local coffee shop, which we have here, beautiful one, and learning more about the weight staff. You know, there's something actually what's great about it too is it's the greatest protective factor we have if you care about health span, the quality of relationships. We know this from multiple studies, including the longest longitudinal one, the Harvard study into adult health, right? What's the quality of your relationship? So for me, Taylor, relationships are at the center of my garden in 2030. And I actually think what needs to create space in that then, probably less of the knowledge. I've come being someone that's been like almost pathologically chasing knowledge. I mean, how many languages do you need to speak before you're enough? You know, like I mean, I just I jest a bit in that, but um, I'm learning it because you know Rachel's ethnically Chinese, so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be able to speak to her grandparents while they're still alive, you know, and like prioritizing, we're gonna go, they're in their 90s. They're not gonna be here and they might not be here by 2030. So, you know, like even time with my own parents, you know, it's all just incredibly special. So I think that's the first thing is like make relationships the center of that. And then from those relationships, have knowledge as secondary, but vital, you know. So it's kind of not just uh, I guess I'm updating my own mental model in this. It's not what do I know? What can I do with what I know? Who am I to do things? It's like, who am I connected with? What am I part of? It's almost like a better question, it's a bit more self-transcendent. Um, the other shift for me is archetypal, you know, from this international man of mystery who is both ubiquitous and ephemeral. No one knows you everyone would it was a joke in my friendship community, like, where are you? You and Uzbekistan running like an innovation program for school leaders, you know, it was a gag. Um it's a shift from that to kind of a local man of community with really significant global um community, uh aspirations or links. I think that's the shift for me. Like, where do I live? I've been someone that's my third space at Crystal was an aeroplane. I have flown in so many flights, you know. Um, but I think the most potent example in my own life I can share, and I hope it's one that's resonant with anyone that's still here, is I got onto a plane in March last year on the 6th of March, and I, you know, wandered on the plane, I had my, of course, I had my Bose headphones around my neck, not I wasn't listening to anything yet. And I sat down in front of this screen that has thousands of hours of programming content, beautiful storytelling, you know, movies, all this stuff. But what I did was instead of just going, okay, go I'm gonna watch a movie straight away and ignore my physical surroundings, I was listening, I was noticing, and I just noticed this conversation behind me that was talking about South by Southwest, which was where I was going to from Sydney. I was flying to Austin. And because I'm this kind of human, I turned around. I took a social risk of being rejected or seen as a weirdo for turning around. It's weird to turn around on a plane. You can talk to the person next to you, but turning around, come on, what are we doing? So I turned around, swiveled, and had this conversation with this delightful uh woman and the kind of older gentleman sitting next to her. We all started chatting about South by and how fantastic it is, etc. You know, and it just turns out that in 10 days I marry that woman because I turned around on a plane. Are you kidding me? You know, like what? So I'm just so grateful that I think the universe rewards people that notice. And so for me, whatever 2030 looks like in my garden, I just hope that I'm noticing what really matters. And as part of that, I am highly selectively ignorant. I choose to not know a bunch of things, and to do that, we need to resist our own programming around safety and negativity bias. And oh, I better check the what's the latest terrible shit show news. You know, because what that does is it will actually steal my own life from me over time because that's the incentives. And I'm not saying these people are evil necessarily, it's just the incentives have driven these dark paths at this point in time. So, you know, the other thing I would say, the last thing I'll say, is there's something about nature. You know, you live in Boulder, Crystal Taylor. I think you're in the same spot or nearby. You know, just to go out into nature, nature is the greatest teacher. Take a bunch of young people, put them out into nature for a week without phones, reset their dopamine system, and they'll come back and they'll realize, oh, this is way better than trying to seek a stranger's validation through my chat, whatever it is. So there's something about the return to nature, remembering that we are nature ourselves, that can just be such a wonderful teacher in all of this as well, especially as we become increasingly higher tech, which I think is exciting. We also need to become better connected to our local ecology.
Taylor:Good, good place to end. I've become a fan of using this. Uh you'll see it on the hat. There's a lot we can learn and a lot of uh new myths that can be born of the dirt. Uh dirt dirt church is a beautiful little brewery in Vermont that I recently stumbled upon, but that exact sentiment sort of sits underneath uh yeah, where where that was born. Anyway, so good uh could do this endlessly, man. Uh just appreciate you as a yeah, friend, colleague, all the things, a uh a legend in your own right. I'm so glad you and Crystal are connected now.
Speaker 3:Um definitely.
Taylor:Yeah, just appreciate the the journey and yeah, more more to come, I'm sure.
Louka:Definitely more to come. Thank you for having me. The journey's one thing, the company you keep might just be the thing that matters most, right? So thanks for being part of my life, Taylor. Crystal, great to connect with you. And thank you for bringing this work to the world.
Crystal :Yeah, lovely to connect with you too. This has been a great um, Taylor. You were right, this is the perfect palate cleanser. And we're recording this right before Thanksgiving. So I feel like, oh, now I can just kind of let go and you know, really be grateful.
Louka:Get into some turkey action. 100% and joy.
Crystal :Awesome.
Taylor:Thank you, Luca.
Crystal :Yeah, thank you.
Taylor:More soon. All right. Cheers, everybody. See you on the next one. Good love.
