Is There A God: Atheist Perspective 2

Welcome back to Cirque Du Soul. In this episode, we continue with our discussing the question "Is there a God?" from an atheists perspective. We continue our discussion of  Russell Bertand's essay entitled "Why I am Not a Christian." In this episode, we discuss the final two arguments of this essay. These are the moral argument for God and the argument around the character of Christ. 

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Transcript

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Yeah, that's mind, body, soul. We connected with the globe. Yeah, that's mind, body, soul took some discipline, repetition and some self-control. We connected with the globe. Said that's mind, body, soul. Whoa. Yeah. That's mind, body, soul. Hey. Yeah. That's Mind, body, soul took some discipline, repetition and some self control. Be the tribe. Hey everyone. Welcome to Cirque to Soul, the only uncut, unedited podcast that is dedicated to helping you to find a spiritual peace in your life. Kim, we're here for the second, part of our series of Is There a God? Yes, we are. Hello everyone. last week we talked about the belief in God, and so this week we're gonna turn our attention to atheism and what does it mean to be an atheist? The definition of atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no God nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods right. And last week we started this, with uh,, talking about a guy by the name of Bertran Russell, who was an avowed atheist. Now we're just trying to. Give, uh, uh, talk about atheist from,, someone who is well known just like we did with Agnostics. Now uh, Bertran Russell, he was a British philosopher. He was a logician, a mathematician, a public intellectual. He was a smart guy. Mm-hmm. And where we left off last week, he had written a essay, and the essay had four parts to it. And it says why I am not a Christian. We had gone through the first two parts of that essay. The first one was,, the argument from first cause saying that everything has a cause and if God, uh, God has a cause also, so who or what brought God into existence. That was his first argument. The second argument was argument from design, and in that argument he says that he doesn't believe that everything was just designed for humans. So that, oxygen is,, 21% of the, of our, air that we breathe and the human body, it's perfect that we can breathe 21% air. He doesn't believe that,, this was designed by someone. So that was the first two arguments that we had, talked about last week, and we're gonna continue this week,, on his third argument, which is a moral argument for God. Hmm. And in this argument he says, one I, one idea is to say that there would be no right or wrong unless God existed, and the point that he's concerned with is that if we're quite sure there's a difference between right and wrong, then this is the situation that when and that situation, is that differences due to God's cause or is it not? If it is due to God's cause, then for God himself, there's no difference between right and wrong. And it's no longer a significant statement to say that God is good. And if you're gonna say as theologians do that God is good, then you must then say that right and wrong have some meaning, which is independent of God's cause. Because God's causes are good and not bad, independently of the mere fact that he made them. That's a lot of talk. What, what's your thoughts? Okay. Yeah. Uh, I never really thought about that till, till we kind of bought it up and, and I got thinking about it and I'm like, I had read someplace where, where we live at now, there's duality, there's up, down, left, right. Skinny, big, you know. Right. Uh. Good or bad, but in another realm, the top realm where God is or God's everywhere, but in another realm, there's no duality. Therefore, there's no right or wrong. I just read that somewhere and I thought about that. I'm like, wow, there may be some truth to that because God, if we say God is all love. All good. There cannot be any wrong where God is, but the realm that we in, there's duality and so there's good and bad. That's just something that I read and I thought about it. It kind of sound logical to me, but I don't know. What do you think? Well, this whole idea of duality, uh, if God is all love, then I guess there is no duality. Okay. And we don't know that here on earth because, we do have love, we have fear, we have hate and all of that. Mm-hmm. So I understand, uh, his argument, his argument says that, if God is all love and all good, then where does the other side of this duality come from? Right. And so it, it, it's a little confusing, but. The fact that, uh, as our, our preachers, our teachers all taught that God is all love. Mm-hmm. And, there's, there's this other side, I guess, belongs to someone else. Or Satan. Or Lucifer or whatever. Mm-hmm. But, uh, that's, that's, yeah, go ahead. That's interesting that, that's interesting. Uh, another way to look at it is, again, like I said, maybe. there's different realms. Like when Jesus says, uh, I, in my father's house, there are many mansions. When I saw, I would've told you. So I go to prepare a place for you that where I am, you may be there too. And I've also read where they, when he says many mansions, that means that you just going in a different realm. we, we, we, we haven't talked about reincarnation or whatever, right? Or dying. And, and most time we grew up, we, we talking about dying and going to heaven or hell. But could there be different levels of heaven? You know, maybe so, but each, the higher you get, love covers everything. Love is over everything, even here on this earth. I think Martin Luther King said that, the only thing that can. Conquer. Hate is love. Yes. And so, yeah. So, uh, the higher you get to realms, love is all there is, but the lower you are. You can have that duality of love and hate. Now I understand what you're saying. who created this, this right or wrong? And, where'd it come from? Did God do it? That's a good question. Right? I, okay. It's a good question. Well, you know what? I like the, I I'm telling you right now, I'm writing a book on this duality. Okay. Uhhuh. It'll come out soon and I'll, I'll let you see it before it goes out. But, uh, uh, what you just said is maybe there are these different levels or, or whatever, in a different realm. Um, yeah. If that's the case, then that would suggest that we're on the very lowest level.'cause we do have this duality. Yeah, that's, and if there are higher levels and we'll never know. This is just us thinking out loud. If there are higher levels, well where are they? Is earth. Yeah. And this physical world that we live in, is this a one level or realm? And then we, uh, as we, uh, I guess learn and become closer to God, uh, do we, the energy that we have, does it move into a second realm? Uh mm-hmm. Wow. I mean, yeah, this is some really serious stuff. Yeah. Yeah. if you, again, if you look at Star Trek Yeah. Well, that's true. There was this one episode where. These people moved at amazing speed where the, our eye just couldn't see it because we're on this level. Right. But they were on another level and they moved so fast. the, like you said, the energy was at a higher level. Yep. And they were still on the same, same, uh, ship. Same. But they're, they're, their, their level of energy was just so much higher than, captain Kirk and Spock or whatever. Right. And, uh, so I. I don't know. It could be just a, a different level of consciousness or energy. Right. Um, I mean, it could be, um, could be different planets. in that one book it says the, again, the HEBs, HEB, the highly evolved beans. Yep. uh, just different level, higher level than us. Why would that not be in the Bible, was it you think? Because we wouldn't understand or. I, I'm one of those and this is human thinking, Mm-hmm. If I know there's a goal out there, then I'm going to try to shoot for that. And maybe that's just the physical part thinking, but we don't know what the soul and what God has planned, so. Right. Well, didn't, didn't, Jesus says something about my kingdom is not here. My kingdom is somewhere else. He did. I think Jesus did say that, Okay. And so it was a little hint, again, maybe we, they couldn't understand what he was saying. Right. But he did say that. Well, you know what, you mentioned that that leads right into his fourth argument, Bert's fourth argument. Okay. So let's talk about that for a minute. Alright. His fourth argument is called the character of Christ. And in it he says, you'll remember that he said, resist not evil, but whoever shall smite the on the right cheek turn to him the other also. Mm-hmm. Now, this is not a new precept, it's not a new principle. It was used by, uh, Laos Sea and, uh, Buddha, 500, 600 years before Christ. Mm-hmm. Uh, but. It's not a principle, which is a matter of fact, Christians accepts, he's saying Christians don't accept that principle. And he also says, you remember that Christ said judge, not lest you be judged. Mm-hmm. That principle he doesn't believe would find a popular, it wouldn't be popular in the court of laws of, of Christian countries now, and he said he's known in his time, quite a number of judges who were very earnest Christians. Mm-hmm. none of them would feel that they were acting contrary to Christian principles. Mm-hmm. Then God's Christ says, give to him that Ask Athe and from him that would borrow a thee turn, not thou away. That's a very good principle. Yeah, and I think what he's saying, we talk a good game, turn the other cheek, but as Christians we don't do that. Right, right, right. And, uh, that's so hard because we're humans. Yes. And we have feelings and whatever, but, Jesus was at such a high level of, of godliness Christ. He's a Christ, which is, God, God conscious. And, uh, so when you at a all love level like that. Even Jesus said, there's greater no greater love than to lay down your life for somebody, Yes. That's just the top love right there. And not too many people are willing to do that. Maybe for their kids, maybe, or for a spouse or something, but, right. Uh, so when he says that the attorney cheek, I, I think, I think he really meant it. You know, I do. Because I mean, he, he allowed them to, to crucify him. Put him on the cross. Right. He, he allowed it.'cause I don't think he, I mean, if he wanted to stop it, I think he could have, but he allowed that. Right. And so, um, it's tough being, trying to get at that level of, of Christ level. It's tough. Yeah. It's tough because it, oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. Well,'cause another example is when he said how hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. When he told the rich man, sell everything you have and come and follow me and you'll, have your reward in heaven. Right? And he couldn't do it. The rich man couldn't do it right. And so when Jesus, I think when he said, you'll have your reward in heaven is when you get to that level, that God level where none of that is important, but just pure love. I. Pure love, and it's hard to get to that level. I'm so, it's, it's hard to turn your cheek. I'm, I'm gonna throw a bomb in here. Okay. Okay. And a lot of people won't like this, but, um, this idea of dying for your brother or whatever, uh mm-hmm. Turn your cheek. Mm-hmm. Bertran says that we as Christians, we have a hard time with that because we don't do it. We would rather fight or whatever. Right, but there are those in the Muslim religion that would die for what they believe in. They died more. Yes. They do readily than, than someone in the Christian religion. Yes, they do. So with that, are we saying that that religion is closer to what, uh, Christ, uh, talks about? Uh, well, you know what? It depends on your reason for, for dying for your religion. And I'm not do and Muslims or nothing.'cause I, I, I don't know'em, but a lot of'em, they're, they're willing to die for their religion, but they're killing people doing it, Well, not all of them. Well, not all of them, but that's in the Bible too. You know? Christians have killed people for whatever. Yes. They have in the or. So why is that any different? Yes, they have. Uh, I think that uh, you can call yourself a Muslim, you can call yourself a Christian, but if you're not following, uh, if you're not doing it, oh wow, that's a good one.'cause you can't say love'cause they do love. I mean, they love their religion. They love and what their. What they're doing, they think they're right. Right. So again, is that right or wrong thing? Yes. They believe they're right. I just, I don't know. For me personally, I think if you, if you're hurting people purposely Okay for your religion, then I, I have a problem with that. Okay. So here we go again. Yeah. So the Crusades, Ooh, uh, the Spanish Inquisition. Yeah. The Salem Witch trials. Yep. Yep. All dark times in the history of Christianity. Yep. So have we evolved? Yeah. Those, I mean, and these are folks that were supposedly followers of Christ, right? And I think this is what Weran is talking about when he's saying, we don't turn the other cheek and we would use our religion to try to justify whatever it is. So, uh, so what's the character of Christ? I mean. Is it that we've gotten so far away from Christ? Or is Christ really that? Yeah. No, I don't think Christ is really that I couldn't imagine Jesus, Right. Uh, burning a, burning a woman because he thinking she's a witch. I couldn't imagine that. I couldn't imagine Jesus wanting to hang somebody because. They feel like they're inferior to you. Mm-hmm. I, I just, you know what I mean? I, that, I just can't imagine Jesus doing that. So I'd like to think, yes, I think we have evolved, but as a whole not, we're not there. I think there's a lot of people that have evolved, but as a whole until, until this world, we talked about this yesterday, until this world becomes one and is really at peace. Uh, then if that hadn't happened yet, then not everybody has evolved. Let me ask a question. Yeah. It's a simple question, but I have my own thoughts. You talk about the whole world becoming truly evolved. Mm-hmm. Knowing man's nature, do you think that we will truly evolve each and every person? Our soul will truly evolve and make its way back to God. Whew. how many millions of years have we been here on this earth? It ain't happened yet, right? So, uh oh, wow. You know what? I never said never. But it doesn't look good, let's put it that way. Okay. And I'm gonna go back to something I said, in last week's, uh, episode, uh, when we talked about the FX and the, uh, pyramids, uh mm-hmm. We. Talked about briefly about the seventh coming of man. Yeah. Is it possible that man has been around, come around six times and we failed every time to get back to God? Mm-hmm. Is it possible that God had to say, we're gonna start all over and do this again? Yeah. You know, when you, when you brought that up, I thought about it and I'm like, that, that kind of makes sense to me. Um, because you would think. Over a long period of time, you would think that we would evolve to a, most people would evolve to a, a Christ conscious level. Um, but maybe not. Uh, maybe not. Maybe that was, uh, maybe that was what Noah and the flood was all about. they had to wipe out everybody and start all over again. I don't know, that, that may have been the second. Right. Okay. Second coming, I don't know. Right? I don't know. Well, then we get back to this character of Christ, Mm-hmm. If what Christ says is this, then maybe the fault is with us as Christians are are someone that believes in a higher power, and if the fault is with us, then it goes back to portray again, saying, if God is omnipotent and omniscient and he's had a million years to do this, why are we still failing? And then, with that, if we're still failing, maybe there's not a God. Maybe we're just here and we're living the life and then we're gone. Yeah. Uh, uh That's the atheist point of view, right? Yes. Yeah. That's the atheist point of view. Um, you know that I, I can see why somebody would believe that. I remember being in college and, uh, there was this one guy, he was an atheist. He would. He would go out and, you have people that would stand outside and just try to get people to become Christians, and we ran track together. Mm-hmm. He said, I'm, I'm gonna a this, I don't believe it. I, and at the time I'm in college, I'm like, what are you crazy? Right. there's a guy, man, you know, there is, and he was telling me all this, and I'm like, huh. Okay. Yep. Wow. Okay. Well, I mean, I can't, I'm not gonna call him crazy because. Uh, who am I to argue with somebody who believes what he believes? I, I just happen to believe differently, but I mean, hey, he believes what he believes. And I mean, unless there's absolutely proof, like the, like the agnostic and the acus, I can see why they believe what they believe. Yeah. Okay. I have to take a minute here, uh, because I did get a few messages from people that, uh, were saying that, uh, they thought that. Some of the things that we said were, uh, for lack of a better word, sacrilegious, but I want people to understand, the, the purpose of this podcast is not to put down any religion or anyone's religion or anyone's belief, but it is to have a discussion and try to understand, different perspectives on God and spirituality and religion. And hopefully that makes someone think, and either it's going to change your way of thinking or it's going to strengthen what you already believe. Yes. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I agree with you. I always say, and we've said this at the beginning, everybody's on their own spiritual level, right? Um,, as Jesus says, just don't judge. let people, go on their journey. Uh, you believe what you believe. Go with it a hundred percent. All we're trying to do is just. Maybe try to get the world to evolve a little bit more so maybe we can come to peace, right. And love on this, on this earth. I don't know. Maybe, maybe we can, but, one day at a time and you're on your own journey and, uh, believe what you believe, right? And I, I agree. I agree. I just Yeah. Wanted to say that because I think some people, they may have come in on a later episode but didn't understand, what the, yeah. What the podcast is all about. What we were doing. Right? Yes. Gotcha. Right. Now, I guess, you know what, let me, let's go forward. Um, Beran, he makes a lot of good arguments, and the arguments are strong if you don't believe in the idea of faith. Um, mm-hmm. In our limited thinking and with our present technology, we can't scientifically prove the existence of God. Now, I know that we think we live in a very technology driven time. We're living in a time when we've seen some great technology advances. Mm-hmm. But I have to believe that we're just scratching the surface as far as technological advances are concerned, I believe. Mm-hmm. We still have the potential to travel and deliver on other planets. We have the potential to solve all human diseases. We still have the potential for trying travel, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Mm-hmm. Now, we have thought about all of these things, but we haven't mastered these as of yet. So if we still have the potential to conquer these things, it makes sense to me that maybe we'll still have the potential to scientifically prove the existence of God. Now, I believe that in the future we will develop the technology to prove that there's a God our, we become more in tune with our inner being and discover a higher self. Mm-hmm. So in the absence of technology and our ability to connect with a higher self, then I think. We could call that faith. That's what it is. Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Um, we're not at that level where the technology's there yet. Right. So we just have to have faith and believe that, uh, whatever you wanna believe. Right. You believe it. Have your faith. Right. And, uh, we'll just go from there. Well, so, uh. So do you believe that we'll progress to the point that technology wise we can prove the existence of God? Yeah. And also, uh, believe that as humans we will learn to tap into our inner being. Learn to contact and live with God while on Earth, on Mercury or Jupiter, do you believe? Yeah. At some point in time we'll develop that technology. Oh boy, man. You know it. I do. Um, it's gonna take a long, long time though, but I, I do, I mean, I can remember 30 years ago when my boys are young, I'm like, one day we're gonna be able to, when we call somebody, we're gonna be able to see who we're calling. Right. My kids kinda looked at me like, damn, we can do that now. I'm like, what? Right, right. I didn't know that. You know, but, so yeah, technology has come a long way and I think, uh, I think we'll get to that point. I don't know how long it'll take, probably a, a long time, but I do, I do think technology will allow us to do that someday. Okay. Okay. And then we can say, without a doubt in our small human minds that science has proven the existence of God. Correct. Okay. Yeah. I, I, yeah. Okay. And that would be nice. I, I, I wish it was here now, but, Right, right. Okay. Well, you know what, we are approaching close to 25 minutes, and I think, we can come back to this again in our next section. Instead of doing what we were gonna do, we can come back to this idea of, of atheism and agnostics and, have a, a, maybe even a deeper, uh, conversation on this. Yes. But for now, uh, if we can summarize Bertran argument, uh, his argument and the conclusions that he draw, they are logical. I mean, they're logical. Mm-hmm. If you can't, they're, you can't seal. If you can't see fill or touch God, then does he exist? That's the definition of an atheist. So, uh Right. You know, that's that. Right. And we also know that logic and faith don't always square with each other. We ask the question, why do you think people have faith when everything that we see logically you can answer the validity or existence of God. In other words, if we are creatures of logic, then why do we still have faith? Yeah, right. Good question. Yeah. Okay. Good question. Yeah. So, uh, I'll just close this and we're gonna close out. Mm-hmm. That, faith is a major part of our Western religion, and it's a part. For me personally, uh mm-hmm. Even though I consider myself to be a logical person with the spiritual base, uh, when I ask these questions, I really don't wanna question anybody's faith and like you, I believe mm-hmm. That each individual has to find, their own way. Yes. Look, lemme give you 30 seconds to close out because, uh, we'll have to do our, our story, uh, next. Uh. Podcast, uh,'cause we had about, uh, two minutes ago, but I want to get your last thoughts on, uh, on, uh, today's podcast and, uh, we'll close out. Sure. Well, I, I think today's podcast was eyeopening for, uh, it, uh, makes you think a little bit about, uh, where we at as a society and as a world and, uh, our beliefs. Um, and I just, I, I like it that you, if you can have a open heart and open mind, uh, and be willing to listen and even think about things. And I think, um, I think that's good for everybody. So I, I really enjoyed the, the episode today and, uh, let's just keep going forward. All right. All right, well, uh, this is going to close our podcast for today. Um, I'd like to thank everyone for joining us on Cirque De Soul. Uh, as Kim would always say, I hope this sparks some new thoughts about the purpose of life. If you'd like to send some questions or discussions, or if you'd like to send your story, please email these to circ du soul44@gmail.com. That's circ du soul, C-I-R-Q-U-E-D-U-S-O-U l444@gmail.com. And if you found value in today's episode, please share it with someone who might benefit from it. Don't forget to like and subscribe so that you don't miss any future episodes. And last, okay. Spiritual journey is uniquely yours. You're never alone. Take care of yourself. Take care of the world around you. And until the next time, have a great day in paradise. Good job Sha trying it best to beat me down to praying for things to change. And I.