Dialogues not definitions: how Porsche doubled its business in a decade

In this fourth episode of the Luxury Society Podcast, Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh explore the remarkable rise of Porsche with rare insights from Deniz Keskin, Director of Brand Management and Partnerships, Porsche.

Recorded at Soho House Summit at Soho Farmhouse in the UK’s cotswolds, the conversation reveals how the brand rejected rigid definitions in favor of internal dialogue, emotional connection, and a bold reimagining of what luxury can mean.

In this episode:

• The Power of Purpose: How Porsche’s brand values—engineered precision, timeless design, and emotional relevance—drove a decade of commercial growth
• Design-Driven Desire: Why Peter Varga sees design as the human heart of Porsche and how aesthetics communicate feeling
• Breaking Silos: How marketing and design teams worked together to align vision and execution
• Beyond the Product: The move from transactional relationships to emotional storytelling
• What Other Luxury Brands Can Learn: Lessons in internal brand dialogue, courage, and customer intimacy
• Luxury’s Evolving Language: Why brands must be fluent in emotion, not just heritage

Brought to you by https://digitalluxurygroup.com/

Follow us @digitalluxurygroup & @robin_swithinbank on Instagram

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025 www.fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

DLG 4: Dialogues not definitions: how Porsche doubled its business in a decade 
 

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, Juliet, let's try this intro again for this week's or next week's episode. This is the intro. Here we go. 
 

Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swen Bank. In this podcast, David and I peel back the filigree layers of the luxury industry, unboxing some of the brands and businesses that define it with executive interviews, insider conversations, and the kind of revelations only data-driven analysis can provide. 
 

What are brands doing to navigate the choppy waters of a global economy thrown into chaos by political, financial, and social instability? How are consumers responding? What's really happening out there? Can the data tell us this is what's bound up in the genes of the Luxury Society Podcast, Julia, I'm gonna do that again. 
 

Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swen Bank. In this podcast, David and I peel back the filigree layers of the luxury industry, unboxing some of the brands and businesses that define it with executive interviews, insider conversations, and the kind of revelations only data-driven analysis can provide. 
 

What are brands doing to navigate the choppy waters of a global economy thrown into chaos by political, financial, and social instability? How are consumers responding? What's really happening out there? And can the data tell us this is what's bound up in the genes of the Luxury Society Podcast. In this episode we'll be talking to the man behind the brand and the partnerships that have helped the storied luxury automotive Mark double its revenues in just a decade. 
 

And then later we'll be getting our heads around the apparently inexorable rise of jeweler and watchmaker to the stars, Jacob and Co. So David on with a show 
 

and once more for luck. [00:00:00]  
 

Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swithinbank Bank.  

David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh. 

Robin Swithinbank: In this podcast, David and I peel back the filigreed layers of the luxury industry, unboxing some of the brands and businesses that define it with executive interviews inside a conversations, and the kind of revelations only data-driven analysis can provide. 

What are the brands doing to navigate the choppy waters of a global economy thrown into chaos by political, financial, and social instability? How are consumers responding? What's really happening out there? And can the data tell us this is what's bound up in the genes of the Luxury Society Podcast. In this episode we'll be talking to the man behind the brand and the partnerships that have helped a storied luxury automotive Mark double its revenues in just a decade. 

And then later we'll be getting our heads around the apparently inexorable rise of jeweler and watchmaker of the stars, Jacob and Co. So David [00:01:00] on with the show.  

David Sadigh: Let's do it.  

Deniz Keskin: brands are not like, how to say. Brands are not definitions that you put on a paper. Brands are dialogues. started with that kind of thinking that a brand is a dialogue. I think the dialogues you want to have as human beings are the honest ones. start by saying that, um,  you cannot not see the success that Formula One has. I am personally convinced that if people will write textbooks about great marketing initiatives of the Naughties Drive to Survival feature there, It's fair to say that we do live in a world that is almost like inflated by brand collaborations, and I think it's also fair to say. In many regards, there is an oversaturation with, with, with that collaboration game. 

​ 

Robin Swithinbank: It's now my pleasure to welcome onto the Luxury Society podcast. Dennis Keskin, Porsche's Director of brand Management and partnerships. Porsche has enjoyed a miraculous decade, almost doubling sales revenue since 2015 to just over 40 billion euros last year. 

Electrification on track success in multiple Motorsport categories, the continuing power and cultural cachet of the iconic nine 11. And of course, brand power and [00:02:00] partnerships have all contributed to the German luxury automotive giants success. Dennis now joins me from soho farmhouse in the British countryside where Porsche is supporting the Soho Summit, a gathering of highly influential figures from across the cultural spectrum, including Jillian Anderson, Keefer Sutherland, rebel Su Rebel Wilson, and Bernie Taupin. 

Dennis, a very warm welcome. Thank you ever so much for joining us on the podcast. 

Deniz Keskin: Hi, Robin. It's my pleasure. 

Robin Swithinbank: Well, let's, um, open up a few terms. Well, one in particular, actually, let's open up, uh, the, your title. 

Deniz Keskin: I. 
 

Robin Swithinbank: Porsche's, director of Brand Management and Partnerships do, and where exactly do you do it? 

Deniz Keskin: It's a very fair question. So usually when I introduce myself, I say like, I've got the best job in the world. And while that might sound like a little bit of a jokey response, I, I actually feel about it this way because I have the great privilege in my role, um, as being part of our marketing team in the Porsche HQ, to be responsible on the one side for a very strategic topic, which is the long-term development of the Porsche brand. 

So. What are the people, the target groups, the cultural hubs we [00:03:00] wanna be in touch with going forward? Um, what kind of Porsche stories do you want to tell in the future? So all that of strategic, um, questions are part of my remit. And then on the partnership level, it's um, a lot more, let's say operational and more in day to day, you know, answering the questions. 

Who are the partners that can help us to propel these stories and hopefully be a proof of where we want to take the brand. And this is, by the way, also why I'm here in the farmhouse at the Soho farmhouse because soho is one of our various team partners that help us in that drive to keep the brand fresh and develop it further. 

Robin Swithinbank: And it must take you all over the world. I mean, Porsche is a global brand and you have global partnerships. Do you ever sit still or do you do spend most of your time at 38,000 feet? 

Deniz Keskin: Um, well, that's a very good question. I think it's been, it's quite interesting because, um, I, I started this role in, uh, 2021 and that was in the middle of Covid. So you can imagine if you, if you start in a role like that and you do have a lot of interesting people to meet, partnerships to discuss, and you have to do it from your computer. 

Um, it, it can be a very tiresome thing. So it was really interesting for me that after the whole restrictions of covid ended, I [00:04:00] could finally meet some people with which I had only discussed and forged relationships, uh, virtually. So, truth being told, uh, 2023, that was very travel intense. I now try to keep things on an, uh, even footing and to balance it out, not only with, you know, of course the family side of things, but also I think it's important to be, to be present for my team in the HQ and Stuttgart. 

But it involves a lot of travel. And I wanna say that right away. It's also privileged, you know, to be in so many different places. And I think it's also one of the powers that Porsche has as a brand, the ability to connect to so many people globally, and also, you know, um, do it in so many countries. So, yeah, I, I shouldn't complain and I'm not complaining. 

Robin Swithinbank: No, No, no, that's a very healthy perspective and I think we appreciate that. And work life balance is a, is a challenge for, for all of us, um, particularly for you when you're working with a global brand. Uh, which, Requires a huge amount of international travel. But, uh, well, let's think big picture thoughts first. 

You've obviously got quite a big picture view, um, from your vantage point, how do you think Porsche is perceived by today's luxury consumers? And what does that say about what buyers are looking for [00:05:00] in a luxury automotive brand in 2025? 

Deniz Keskin: So that is a question that I could answer in, in different lengths. So since I think the podcast is not supposed to be like two hours, let, let's give it a, a rather short term view on that. Because, because Porsche is a very, very complex brand. That's what I'm, what I'm trying to say at this stage. So I think if you ask about the function of a brand like Porsche, and since we talk about luxury, I guess a lot in this podcast. 

Um, there is a Porsche print from the seventies that, um, of course we can show on this podcast, but I think it's been a very nice way of summarizing the, let's say, reason for existence of the Porsche brand because the, the ad says it's a German one, but I'm gonna translate it in English. Nobody needs it. 

Everybody wants it. So when I think about Porsche as a brand, the first thing I'd like to say is, of course, although a lot of engineering, a lot of technology goes into producing our product. At the end of the day, what drives the desire of the consumer is something emotional and something irrational. And everything we try to do in marketing is, if you like, embedded in that wonderful [00:06:00] contradiction of a physical engineered product. 

And, and the drive for excellence in quality of course is there, but then still translating it in a way that attaches to people emotionally and honestly fulfills desires or needs that are, you know. Very hedonistic, and I mean hedonistic in a positive way. I mean, um, if you, if you buy one of our products, you do that because you want to express something about yourself, like, like with any luxury product, I guess. 

And hopefully that is a, a positive message, a message about enjoying life and a message about also. And that's, I think, really important performance, tivity and design, because when we look at the brand and how it is perceived globally. These are the big anchors that we see. That ability of Porsche to be a performance brand, you know, but still a brand that also has, um, a strong anchor in design in heritage is, I guess what, what sets us apart from, from a lot of our competitors. 

Robin Swithinbank: Remarkably prescient campaign in the 1970s. I, I was born in the 1970s, but I, I can't confess to having a great memory of that period. Um, but, but my, my expectation would be that for the time, that was a very [00:07:00] forward thinking campaign and actually that tone of voice is, is more prevalent today in an age where I think we recognize the luxury is very unnecessary, but also luxury brands recognize that they need to be quite honest. And quite authentic with their audience. Uh, 

Uh, Yeah. 

uh, would appear therefore to have that embedded in, its certainly, its contemporary, late 20th, early 21st century, DNA. 

Deniz Keskin: Yeah, I, I, I would totally agree. And by the way, I think it's something that's also typical for our brand because Porsche's car manufacturer exists since, uh, 77 years now. And, um, I think it's easy to, to fall into the trap of being retro and just look in the rear view mirror. I think the task that you have as a heritage brand that wants to stay relevant in the here and now is always to understand the DNA, but then also. 

To develop it in a way into the future that makes it still relevant for current audiences. And I couldn't agree more that authenticity and honesty in the way that you appeal with your target group or communicate to them is, is extremely, extremely important. So we do look a lot at some of [00:08:00] the stuff we've done in the past, not in order to copy it, but more like to remind ourselves where the emotional anchors for our brand are and what we did back then, and how we can translate it for, for the future. 

Because I, I think, you know, fundamentally. The truth why our brand exists is, is a very simple one. There, there was a person, our founder, who wanted to have his own business and build a car that he couldn't find in the market. So he set his ambition to put it into reality. He built a small business that turned out to be a, a pretty successful business in the meantime. 

And, um, that DNA of being a founder's company and being driven, well, what our customers want, that's still very much something we try to. Uh, maintain to this day and age. 

Robin Swithinbank: You're talking of relevance, uh, leads me naturally into the next question, which is about the symbiotic world of brand partnerships, sponsoring, collaboration, and so on. This, this has become an incredibly competitive sector, not least in our hyperconnected world, where information and ideas, and of course. 

Brand stories are [00:09:00] shared in ever greater volumes and at ever greater speed. How do you work out who and what you want to align Porsche with in order to cut through the noise and grab the attention of time? Poor choice. Rich, luxury, luxury consumers. 

Deniz Keskin: Yeah, I would say there are a couple of, um, points we try to keep in mind, but before I go into that detail, maybe one remark I think I. It's fair to say that we do live in a world that is almost like inflated by brand collaborations, and I think it's also fair to say. In many regards, there is an oversaturation with, with, with that collaboration game. 

So, um, we, we always try to make sure that we do not collaborate for the sake of it or to, you know, fulfill a cadence like we need to do to collapse in Q1, you know, that kind of thinking. But really pick our moments based on when opportunities are available that really, I. Have the substance to be special, and you're absolutely right. 

That leads into the question, um, how do you pick your partners and, and what do you do as a collaboration? So I would say that the two most important considerations for me are [00:10:00] a, is it. A story that I would believe, I mean, theoretically we could partner up with any brand in the world, um, if we wanted to, but I don't think, you know, these forced constructions, if I may call them like that, that they really work. 

So there needs to be a credible, um. Source of truth somewhere when you think like, oh yeah, Porsche and this brand coming together, that makes sense. That can be shared values, that can be a piece of shared history can also be just personal affinity between people who stand or, or talk with a brand. But I think you always need a starting point, a, a true and authentic story that people can believe in and buy into. 

The second thing that's important for us is. Um, Porsche is not a brand that is looking for if you like, awareness or, or attention. That's really a privilege if you work for Porsche because by and large people after 77 years know in the automotive world what we stand for and what product we do. So for us it's really about how can we take elements of the Porsche DNA and together with a partner, [00:11:00] translate them in a way that creates something novel. 

So, you know, putting your logo somewhere as a very simple exercise or just exchanging color codes, that's not enough for us. There needs to be an interesting story about what Porsche did to make something better or more valuable, um, in another place, in another industry that is really important. So these are the two most important anchors I would say, when we go for a collaboration. 

Robin Swithinbank: to some of the examples a little bit later, but, uh, one of the things that, uh, intrigues me is whether even when you are Porsche, even when you have this very high level of awareness and very high level of desirability as you've described, even when you have annual sales revenues of 40 billion Euros and more, how sharp do your elbows have to be? 

Uh. To score the deals you want when you've identified the partnerships you think are going to bring you 

Deniz Keskin: Oh, this is, this is, uh, affecting the, the range of business secrets, what I'm talking here about. No, listen. I mean, at the end of the day, there are a lot of brands that come to us and want to partner with us. That's simply true, and I think it's very, very flattering and nice that a lot of people want to be in touch with Porsche, but I. 

We also try, and that's maybe an element I should have said when I, when [00:12:00] I, uh, laid out the criteria, we also try to make sure that we partner with the best of the best in the fields that we're, you know, doing these collaborations. So usually when you are among the leadership in your industry, I. It's always difficult to get, you know, to a, to the attention of someone and to do a deal. 

So I think the idea that we just, um, casually stroll into a meeting room and say, here's Porsche. Let's do something that is not true. But I'm, I'm not saying that's unfortunately not true because I. If it was true, then I, I'm not quite sure that it would lead to the best possible results. I think at the end of the day, doing a partnership or a collaboration really requires both brands to be a hundred percent committed to doing it. 

And that for me also encompasses debating whether, is this really the right choice? Is this really the best way going forward? And I'd rather have a partner where we have these, you know, controversial discussions upfront and then, you know, embark on a really good partnership than finding out these things in between. 

So we, we, we need to be charming as well, Robin. That's the truth. So. 

Robin Swithinbank: Don't we all? Um, we didn't get where we are today. Um, [00:13:00] Porsche has grown rapidly over the past decade and a half, as I alluded to earlier, adding as I understand it, nearly 15 billion euros in sales revenue since the pandemic alone. Extraordinary results. But, uh, how have you done this, would you say, how has the company done this and what role have brand and partnerships played in the company's recent successes? 

Deniz Keskin: Well, I think if I look at it or try to look at it analytically, I would say of course you need to offer a product that is wanted in the market. That's, that's for sure. So I think part of the success story of Porsche is definitely in the expansion of our product lineup. Um, so, uh, when I started working for Porsche many, many years ago, if I look at the cost we, we had on offer now, and if a look at the range that we built in the meantime, you can clearly see this expansion, but not an expansion for the sake of it. 

Always an expansion. Built on the fundamental truths of the brand, you know, being the most sporty offer in the market, leading with design, um, being true to our heritage. So that's, that's one side of the equation. The other, of course, is you need to have the ability to appeal to new people, to new target groups, to come into the brand.[00:14:00]  

And this is, since you mentioned it, I think, where brand partnerships play an incredibly. Important role to remind people every now and then, not that you exist, because as I said, people know Porsche exists, but that you are able to be, um, feel like a character in the market that is maybe not only the one that you know from five or 10 years ago, but that you stay relevant and evolve with the times. 

So I think, you know, brands are not like, how to say. Brands are not definitions that you put on a paper. Brands are dialogues. Brands only exist because people like myself in marketing, the whole Porsche company try to have a dialogue with the consumer in the market. And what I would always say is, if you want to change the direction of the conversation or if you want to involve new people into that conversations, the right collaborations are one of the most efficient tools to to achieve that. 

You know, there's lots of things that you can do. In product development, in marketing, in PR, to, to instill these changes. And of course we also do them in parallel, but I think these collaborations, they can really be speedboats to explain [00:15:00] to people where you want to go, what type of brand you aspire to be, and if, if we get it right. 

I think that's also been, um, the effect of these collaborations. 

Robin Swithinbank: I love that, uh, dialogues, not definitions. Brands should be dialogues, not definitions. Really interesting perspective, uh, which I think brings us then to the here and now and to which categories Porsche is focusing on when it comes to forging new partnerships. Where, where are you focusing your efforts and, and why? 

Deniz Keskin: So the, the, the simple question is we are not trying to be focused on a specific area because, um, if I look at last year, and I'll, I'll just point out maybe two examples, um, to show the, the, the breadth of what we're trying to do on. And maybe as a third one also talk a bit about what we do here with Soho House. 

Um, one of the best stories we had last year was, um, to build a espresso machine with La Marzocco. Now, I don't know. How strong your coffee game is, Robin. But if you are in the world of, oh, not a Yeah, but if you're in the world of espresso machines, you know, the one brand people want, um, the one with a lot of heritage and technology is an Italian company from Florence called La Marzocco. , and it's been a really interesting journey for both [00:16:00] brands. 

You know, an Italian espresso maker, a German sports car manufacturer, to come to a place where we feel like, hey, there is. There is a joint passion that we can tap into in both audiences, and we can also, you know, expand the view on what Porsche can achieve through a product like that. But it's been, you know, an amazing success because at the end of the day, it's also, and I think that's an important factor, not necessarily something people would've expected from Porsche, you know, as a, as a field of, of collaboration. 

So that worked out ex exceptionally well. Um, second example I would like to say is we, we did a really great partnership with Pantone, you know, the reference in colors worldwide, where we developed a specific color that is supposed to be the external marker for our top line models, the turbo models. Um, and it was a really interesting journey to also, you know, use a partnership. 

Shape the future of your, uh, product per se going forward. And again, you see with both brands, it's really important that you, I think that Porsche, that we work with the absolute best in their respective fields. [00:17:00] And you know, when it comes to to Soho House, it is another great example. I think there are very few membership communities, uh, that have the success that, uh, soho has. 

And I think, you know, what we do together in terms of doing these events. You mentioned some people that are part of what we're doing here, really inspiring the community and not just, you know, um, be being manufacturer of goods that wants to push sales, but really try to make an added value for a community. 

And, and tell authentic Porsche stories that are more anchored in our values and not necessarily the, the, the factual goods we produce. That's another good example of how we try to approach these partnerships, but as you can see from my examples, for us, it's not about certain fields where we feel like we have to be present. 

For me. The, the story is important and the beautiful about collaborations is, you know, there are stories that you can find everywhere. So, um, and by the way, I'm also happy to say that I just mentioned three very successful examples. Of course, sometimes you do collaborations, where in hindsight you think, yeah, we could have done better on the storytelling, we could have, you know, drove a certain point [00:18:00] home, um, may be a little bit more, uh, consequentially, but. 

Um, yeah. The beauty of that game really is to also learn new things about yourself by, you know, open, having an open dialogue with other companies. Yeah. 

Robin Swithinbank: yeah. Interestingly though, one of the areas where you seem to have, we seem to be moving more. I was gonna say aggressively, but maybe that's not the right word. Just having what, uh, heard what you've had to say. Uh, you are certainly moving into golf with some energy, let's put it that way. Title sponsor the Porsche Singapore Classic, which is a DP world tour sanctioned event. Uh, you support, uh, a number of other events, including the UND of the UN championship, the, uh, only women's golf major held in Europe. Uh, and indeed you, uh, support the Omega European Masters. Another one of the sort of big events on the DP World tour. 

Deniz Keskin: Mm-hmm. 
 

Robin Swithinbank: uh, what, what's, what's drawing you to golf and what sort of benefits are you seeing to those partnerships? 

Deniz Keskin: I think, um, as a brand where sport and performance is part of our DNA and the core expression of who we are, partnerships in sports in general make a lot of sense. Now, of course, we have to be aware of the fact that, again, the market of sports sponsorship is a very oversaturated one, and we [00:19:00] have to be very conscious in terms of what we pick as an environment for Porsche. 

For us, there are two. Main fields that we have been active in in the last couple of years. Um, the one is women's tennis. Um, but I'll, I'm happy to talk a little bit more about the golf angle that you just mentioned because, um, when we, when we do market research and we look at the passion points of our customers and look at sports, golf is the number one. 

Hobby by far of our customers. So for us it makes total sense to have a representation in professional golf because it allows us also to create really special experiences for our customers. And at Porsche we have really built a, uh, if you like, a pyramid around this. So not every poor single Porsche Center worldwide, strictly speaking, but the vast majority of them, they do local golf tournaments that lead to. 

National finals. Those national finals lead to a world final that we stage every year with our customers, you know? Um, and then for the best ones of that, we really make sure we have access to the [00:20:00] best experiences in professional golf as well. So for us it's more like an expression of that drive of the customer for that specific sport. 

And I dunno if you golf, uh, Robin, but of course when you do then you know. The, the, the parallels that we have in terms of, uh, precision speed and everything that makes that game so fascinating. That's a really good story to tell about, uh, Porsche as a brand as well. But as I said, it's important to, to know that it's not only about, um, putting your logo somewhere in a, in a TV broadcast. 

It's, it's really about having that, that structure, that pyramid of the customers coming from their local tournaments up to professional golf and, and grading memorable experiences for them. 

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Uh, Porsche has also been very active in a new, new generation of motorsport. I'm thinking of Formula E, where Porsche is considered the most successful team in the sports 12 year history. I'm thinking of eSports, where the Porsche tag hoer eSports. Cup just dished out $200,000 of prize money this spring, as I understand it. How important have these products been in securing the interest and loyalty of a, a new generation of consumers? 

Deniz Keskin: I think it's important when you, when you mention those things to point out that we really [00:21:00] put a lot of emphasis on creating positive early brand exposure. And that is because I'm, I'm pretty sure that if you, if you talk to an existing Porsche Cons, uh, customer and you ask them where their passion with Porsche started. 

I would argue in most of the cases you will find a childhood story somewhere. And, you know, being, being the age of the Porsche customers as well, of course there might have been, uh, different avenues, different channels, different media touchpoints back then. But nowadays we know we have to be really, really active in digital, in virtual worlds too, to create that early brand exposure to, you know, have that strategic thinking of, we want people to understand that Porsche is special. 

As early as possible. So that means the whole area of gaming is something that we'll look at very, very strategically, by the way, not only in the genre of racing games, but also in a lot of other, um, online gaming genres. But I'm sure you'll, you'll agree that of course, you know that that passion of being able to drive a Porsche, albeit virtually, is something that is the perfect segue for that generation into a lot of the activities we do [00:22:00] then later on, and I think, um. 

When, when you look at what happened during the pandemic and, and the boost for virtual motorsport, that came as a very, very natural extension of, of who we are as a brand because a Porsche does not do motorsport as a, um, added activity. We, Porsche has always done motorsports since day one. We continue to do so, so. 

Like, like you, you have a marketing department at Porsche, a procurement department. An accounting department. You have a motorsport department. It's just part, part and parcel of what we do. And this is by the way, also why the virtual racing is done in the same team by the same guys to do the real racing. 

So for us, it's just another kind of track if you like, but it's true. And that's where we also, you know, chip in a lot from the marketing side. That early brand exposure is vital and we see the benefit of it. 

Robin Swithinbank: I'm, I'm glad you mentioned the pandemic, so I wanted to bring that up a little bit. Um, not just because you've had a very successful five or six years despite the impacts of the pandemic, or maybe because, because of the impacts of the pandemic, but it, it ushered in a new era of quote unquote values. Brands had to show they had. Purpose and authenticity, equality that we [00:23:00] mentioned a little bit earlier in our conversation. Uh, they had to show they cared about people and planet. while some of those values will always need to be demonstrated by the product, a lot of the heavy lifting is done by, by those brand partnerships and by perceptions of the brand. much of your brand and partnership strategy is shaped by such concerns? 

Deniz Keskin: It is one of the, let's say, strategic guidances. Of course we use, when we ultimately decide in terms of the partnerships we wanna go to. I wanna say that, um, I think you always have to be careful and honest to ourselves as marketeers. Um. Terminology like whitewash, greenwash, which you wanna call it. They do exist for a reason because. 

I, I'm personally, I think there have been brands and companies who try to stretch it too far in terms of what am I doing on a daily basis and what is the picture I try to portray to the outside world, right? If you're in the automotive industry, we can be pretty clear that one of the biggest impacts for our product portfolio has been the driver sustainability. 

And this is why Porsche, like other, uh, car manufacturers is investing a lot in building electric cars. [00:24:00] Electric cars that hopefully feel and drive like a Porsche. But, um. A brand partnership. Anything we do in that area can only go as far as, in my point of view, the reality of the brand allows, otherwise you're in the risk of becoming, you know, someone who's pretending to be someone they're not. 

So we, we started with that kind of thinking that a brand is a dialogue. I think the dialogues you want to have as human beings are the honest ones. The ones where we feel like the person I'm talking to is, is, uh, someone I'd like to spend time with. And if you pretend to be someone you're not, I think. 

Sooner or later people will notice and that doesn't work. So my answer is, if, if a partnership helps us to amplify something that's already there and helps us to amplify a direction that is really, really important to us, then we are very happy to take that opportunity. But we could not heal something that's not, you know, happening in reality by, by doing a brand partnership around that. 

Robin Swithinbank: I wonder if you have a, a perspective on, on how that story is going to evolve over the course of the next, say, five or 10 years. For argument's sake. It seems to me that there has been a cooling, not [00:25:00] not just in the automotive industry, but across the luxury sector for telling sustainability stories, for trying to engage consumers on the theme of sustainability. Have you noticed that? And, and, and if so, why do you think it's happened and how is it going to influence your decision making in the next few years? 

Deniz Keskin: I think to be truth truthful, it's a very philosophical question. It's about how we change course as societies and human beings. I think the way it works in general is that it works in cycles and usually there's always a reaction and a counter reaction when things like that happen. So I can say from a Porsche perspective, um, there has been a lot of focus and rightly so on that side of the business, which led to, you know, product decisions, technological decisions to that we're now implementing. 

As a car manufacturer, do operate in longer windows. So for us, it's not a question of, you know, what we do this year, next year. We, as you can imagine, we have robust long-term plans in place. And I think the fundamental truth that we have the obligation to do alternative forms of transportation. So not only combustion in hybrid, but also electric [00:26:00] ones, that's, that's not going to vanish. 

I do notice that in the public discussion these days, maybe sustainability has not the same. Um. Attention factor then maybe 3, 4, 5 years ago. But we know that also comes and goes with other, um, vectors of, of our times and what's happening in terms of the economy, in terms of other really pressing matters of, uh, of this time. 

But I think the base layer is sustainability is not an option. You have to have, uh, the ability to also cater for that long term with a coherent strategy. And that's what we're trying to do. Um, 

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Thank you. That's a, that's a very fair answer. Um, it's not a natural segue at all. Um, but I do also want to talk to you about, um, about Formula One. Another thing that over the last handful of years, really, really even over the last two or three years, has. an enormous amount of popularity. 

We, uh, we had Antoin Pin from Tag Heuer on the podcast, uh, only a few episodes ago talking about why Ta Hoya has chosen to partner with Formula One and the enormous benefits that's already having for them in terms of footfall into stores, in terms of social, uh, reach, in terms of [00:27:00] sales, obviously. Um, but I, but I, of course, Porsche has decided as far as we understand not to enter, formula One. recent misses with, uh, with Red Bull, followed by an announcement late last summer. There would be, there would be no deal. Does this mean that Porsche really has parked F1 for now, or, I mean, from your perspective, from a brand perspective, is it, is it such a powerful platform now for luxury brands that it's, it's become unignorable. 

Deniz Keskin: Um, I, that's a very complex question as well, so I'll, I'll start by saying that, um, you cannot not see the success that Formula One has. I am personally convinced that if people will write textbooks about great marketing initiatives of the Naughties Drive to Survival feature there, because I mean that move to open the doors to really at least perceived unfiltered access to what's happening behind the scenes. 

That is tremendous. And I think that has opened up audiences for them that they would've never thought of. So I just wanna say that in general, if I look at Formula One, and I also have to confess I'm a Motorsports fan. Personally, I'm, I'm totally in awe and respectful of, of the success they had. Whether you engage in that [00:28:00] platform as a manufacturer is of course, um, I'm more complex. 

Um, question, um, question of financial, technological viability, but also the impact you ultimately see for. Business. Um, it's true that at the moment, um, there are no plans to enter Formula One. And I'm sure you also know there are rule cycles. So normally entering or not entering the, that part of the business is only in conjunction with, um, the opportunity to open up the regulations and be part of a development right from the start. 

But I'd like to say though, is. I think, um, if you, if you do not look at the series, but as look at brands that are synonymous with, with motor sports, with racing, I think, um. Of course also my full respect to, to the guys in Italy, to Ferrari who have tried to, to build and manage, to build a huge and admirable legacy when it comes to that. 

But apart from that, there are very few brands who have that ability to connect to racing over decades without a pause than Porsche. So I'm, I'm saying that, um, yes, we did not, we, at the moment, we choose not to pursue any avenue into Formula One, but if you look at our [00:29:00] engagement formula E and also what we do in Lamar. 

Where we are rack holder in terms of wins, which is a kind of different type of motor sport, but still attracting hundreds of thousands of people to the track every year. We are, we are confident that we can, you know, hone in on our motor sport DNA and what makes Porsche culture nevertheless, and, and whether, and in the future, um, any development Formula One opens up itself and we reconsider it. 

That's then something to debate when, when the time is coming. But I, I like to say that we are very happy with. Where we stand in our motor sport programs. And if I may say one fun fact for you, um, nobody manufactures more racing cars per year than Porsche, which maybe also shows the level of depth that we have in that field, because it's not only about the three cars that run in Lamar or the two cars that are running in Formula E, it's really about. 

The different Porsches Super Cups, the different sports car categories we're supporting, the privateers we're supporting with competitive equipment, and that, again, shows how much motorsport runs in our blood and is not just a, you know, [00:30:00] tactical decision. 

Robin Swithinbank: It's a vast ecosystem and uh, well this particular element of it is one that will fascinate most sport fans for many generations to come, I'm sure. And who knows, one day maybe we'll see Porsche come in. But, uh, let, let's, um, bring this conversation into land by, by looking to the future, um, Porsche's, as we have discussed a household name, uh, from Wisconsin to Wellington, the world over, but even so, there will be some markets I suspect that are relatively young For you, emerging markets, where are you looking to build market share at the moment and what kind of. 

Partnerships are you considering to support that effort? 

Deniz Keskin: Yeah, I think the, at the moment, of course, um, we are, we are very evenly balanced. If I look at, you know, the big sales region, um, Asia, US, and Europe, when it comes to Porsche, I think it's the strength of the Porsche brand that we have a really strong international footprint. Are some markets, and I would especially name for instance, Korea, South Korea, but also even if it's not a new market, Japan, that has really kind of had a renaissance. 

I'm, I'm sure you'll agree also from a luxury perspective in the last couple of years that, that do open up potential. It's a very frequent [00:31:00] discussion we have, whether in order to, you know, uh, let's say for, for the sake of argument access the. Possibilities do you have in a market like Japan, if you have to do a collaboration with a Japanese brand or, um, if that's agnostic to where your partner comes from? 

I think the jury is still out on, on where that goes. Um, we are still in the phase that we're not looking for a certain, let's say, nationality of the partner or origin, but we rather focus on the story. So I would rather try to understand what makes our consumers in Japan tick and if. Something is there that we can agree on that allows us to tell a credible and exciting story and it's done with a partner that is not Japanese. 

I'm happy to do it. If it's with a Japanese brand, it's also totally fine, but I would always prioritize the storytelling potential across. The wish to address a specific market. And again, I like to say Porsche, and that's a huge privilege. We have works very well as a global brand. So, um, and I'll give you that as an example, the partnership with it, with the, um, Italian espresso machine manufacturer that had a tremendous effect in Korea, and [00:32:00] that's something to be a hundred percent honest, that we didn't plan for. 

It just happened because it tapped into a rising espresso culture in Korea as well, and worked out beautifully, and of course was also amplified by our team in Korea and the Naoko team in Korea. But sometimes you have these very surprising effects because again, I think a great story is a great story and people will want to listen to it no matter where they come from. 

Robin Swithinbank: A great point, uh, on which to finish. Um, well I think we probably need to go and get ourselves an espresso then, don't we?  uh, we 

Deniz Keskin: Uh, I could definitely need one. Yeah. 

Robin Swithinbank: Look, thanks Deni so much for talking to us. It's been a real pleasure, uh, speaking with you and listening to, uh, your insights. Thank you so much for everything you've shared with us on the Luxury Society Podcast. 

Deniz Keskin: Thank you, Robin. Have a good day ahead. Bye. 

Robin Swithinbank: So Juliet, this is David and me recording, uh, a response to the Dennis conversation, uh, for episode four. Uh, here we go. Well, David, I must say I really enjoyed my conversation with Dennis. He was, uh, I guess he was more open than I'd anticipated, and I, I enjoyed his answers. I enjoyed how fluent he was. Um, and I enjoyed his candor, particularly around, well, formula One. 
 

I thought his questions were really interesting and really insightful. Uh, it must be quite painful for him. It's a sport where as a marketeer, he'll know he's missing out. Um, but anyway, what were your big takeaways listening back to it? 
 

David Sadigh: I Are you sure you want to start like that, Robin? 
 

Robin Swithinbank: Uh, 
 

David Sadigh: gives quite a negative view on the fact that he's missing away Formula one and this and that and there are like so many things he said that were great, but as you wish, if you want to keep that, you keep that, 
 

Robin Swithinbank: um, no, 
 

David Sadigh: decide if you want to keep it just to my hair. It's not common for me to tell you, but like to my hair, it's, 
 

Robin Swithinbank: knocked you off. Is it? Okay. Let's, um. 
 

David Sadigh: maybe I got it wrong. Maybe it's like my Swiss sensibility in this case. 
 

Robin Swithinbank: Maybe it's my British perspective of picking out the negative first or my journalistic perspective, I suppose. I mean, I thought, anyway, let, let, I'll do it again, 
 

David Sadigh: Thank you. 
 

Robin Swithinbank: let's stop that. I'm gonna do it again. I 
 

David Sadigh: Uh, wait one second. The image is like not clear. Ah, you said it's local, so it's fine. Okay. Yeah. 
 

Robin Swithinbank: I, I will, I'll just cut out that bit out about Formula One. Let's go again. Well, Well, David, I must say I very much enjoyed my conversation with Dennis. Obviously I missed you dearly. Um, Dennis was much more open than I'd anticipated, and I, I gotta say I really enjoyed his answers, but I'm very interested to know what you thought of it and what your big takeaways are. I. David, I must say I really enjoyed my conversation with Dennis. He was, uh, he was pretty open, pretty candid. Um, what were your big takeaways? 

David Sadigh: I think it was a fascinating conversation and I have to [00:33:00] say I was a bit jealous of not being there, but in one other end you are quite good, uh, when you do it on your own. So maybe next time I will. 

Robin Swithinbank: Uh, what, whatever you say. Um, when he was, uh, he was, uh, he was a very good interview and he was very fluent, but, um, uh, plenty of marketers, but at the same time, plenty of really good insights. What did you pick out? 

David Sadigh: Yeah, no. The first thing is like, uh, as you rightly mentioned, uh, Porsche has been through like a fantastic trajectory. Uh, and, uh, it's a, a really impressive, uh, uh, business and I think it's a masterclass of like brand marketing and brand consistency. Um, so there were like a lot of things that, uh, I believe were, uh, extremely insightful. 

Uh, I was specially interested about like, you know, the fact that in everything they do, they really try to be consistent, to have this long-term view, uh, to uh, be able to carefully choose where. What type of territories do they wanna explore or not explore? I think the point about the partnership was quite fascinating, right? 

In the world. Everyone tried to do brand collaboration and so on. We don't have any target at Porsche of like trying to do two collaboration per quarter. We really tried to think at the [00:34:00] substance. Uh, so I was quite interested by that. I think that the point, uh, about next generation and how they start engaging. 

With kids, in fact, and try to instill childhood memories, I think was quite an insightful element as well. Um, what did you think? 

Robin Swithinbank: picked up on the collaboration point as well, and he made it quite clear that he believes that the market is oversaturated by collaborations and. It's very hard to disagree with him, I must say. Um, certainly the, the, the notion that you shouldn't collaborate for the sake of it is one that's very easy to get on board with. Uh, it's also true of course, that collaborations well, they involve a certain amount of risk every single time. Um, in the political space, 

David Sadigh: Okay. 
 

Robin Swithinbank: I mean the sort of the hookup between Kamala Harris and Beyonce didn't exactly work out terribly well for her. Did it? Look where we are now, but at the same time, collaboration does still work. Um, shortly, uh, we'll be talking with, uh, with, uh, Benny for, uh, the, on the download about Jacob and Co. And that is a brand that has accelerated very rapidly and has, has, has well, for the, for the entire history of the company really. Certainly. And it's, it's, its guys over the past 30 years or so, they have leveraged collaboration as successfully, if not more successfully than, uh, any other, let's say new generation, luxury brand. 

David Sadigh: [00:35:00] The ability to, uh, connect through passion Point is like, uh, extremely fascinating. Uh, I think the golf element in one end looks quite obvious, but when you look at the roster of recent collaboration, he mentioned obviously the one with, uh, Lamar Zko. That was like an interesting one. Uh, but, uh, we didn't cover, uh, yet. 

The re and the strong collaboration they had, they started launching the nine 11 SC in 2021. Uh, they did something quite fantastic as well, uh, in 2024 around the uh, uh, 9, 9 3 turbo. Uh, that was also extremely interesting. And I think when you look at the cloud that uh, re. Has managed to develop and the fact that such a small niche, yet powerful brand, uh, got this partnership with Porsche, including on the product with some like joint logo initiatives and so on. 

I think that's something that I believe is like, uh, uh, uh, really highlighting the ability to spot and leverage the right type of, uh, of partners around passion points. 

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I think that's true. And the la the Lamar Soko, uh, example is a really good one, but it's also a [00:36:00] really good example of the law of unintended consequences. Uh, and he said that it had had a really positive impact on perceptions of the Porsche brand in Korea. Now, they never anticipated that, but obviously Korea being a a, a. 

Pretty strong market for luxury brands at the moment. That is, that's a good result. And no question, but it, but it wasn't one that they were expecting. I thought that was very interesting as well. I mean, throughout, of course, when we're talking about Porsche and, and he did mention the, the, the number of products that they've introduced into their lineup over the past 10 years. Um, obviously a lot of those products have been electrified as well. But, uh, he, he, he, he was very quick to recognize that. The growth of the company, uh, is down first and foremost to the quality of the product and the brand. And partnerships actually play a secondary role. I mean, it reminds me of Lee Iacocca famous quotes. 

I'm sure you know it. So when he said, he said, when the product is right, you don't have to be a great marketer. now I'm, that's not to take anything away from Dennis, but I think he would probably recognize that that's true. when you've got the nine 11 to play around with, it's already a great product. 

Um, I'm not saying it's impossible to mess it up. Obviously you can mess it up with the wrong partnerships, with the wrong brand story, but he's got a very good platform to [00:37:00] work on. Um, so I thought he was, uh, I thought he was, again, he was very fair in the way that he recognized that the power of brand is secondary to the power of the product. 

David Sadigh: Yeah, it seems to me that the real magic happen when you have like, uh, everything aligned, right? The product, the marketing, the retail experience as well. And, and you can really feel, as you said, that obviously they have like iconic product, but, uh, let's not forget that they produce more than and sell more than 200,000 cars per year. 

So it's a lower number than the number of like Rolex Omega, uh, uh, watches being produced, but they're like doing 40 billion. In sales, which is like probably, you know, four to 10 times bigger than some of the leading watch and and jewelry brand. So I think this element of balance between the two is interesting. 

Uh, I quite enjoyed the ponton collaboration as well. I think that's an interesting one. Uh, reminded me of the IWC Ponton that in fact came earlier. I think IWC did it in. Probably in 2022. Uh, and uh, but that's interesting as well because obviously we know how passionate people are when it comes to the colors of their Porsche or their [00:38:00] nine 11. 

Uh, and I think that's, uh, that, that's really like, uh, an episode I would strongly recommend to, uh, you know, uh, anyone willing to work in marketing communication. 

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I agree. And I, and I wonder actually if, if pretty much everything that he said was summarized by his sentiment that brands are about dialogues, not definitions. Now, arguably that is uh, but perhaps I, I'm biased. I liked it because I enjoy building narratives and I enjoy bringing people into those narratives, but it, it crystallized for me the view that brands. Need to be human, they need to be approachable. Um, big bold definitions, you know, we are this, we are that they can be off-putting and certainly they can be too narrow because, and I think that what consumers forever, I suspect, but certainly today's consumers like to feel that they're in control of their own decisions and don't take too kindly, therefore to being told by a brand how or when, or why they should be buying and using their product. 

David Sadigh: I think when you ask him the question about what are like the, the, the strategic market for Porsche, I think his contrarian answer was, uh, uh, really interesting and the fact that he was saying, look beyond the market, it's the [00:39:00] storytelling that is important and try to really decipher. I. What will make the consumer tick and that obviously that the power of the narrative is like in some essence, even more important than the market. 

And I think this is exactly in line with what you just mentioned about this dialogue and about this ability to really build a conversation that in one end remain like with Porsche as a really highly desirable and status image driven brand. But by providing also a sense of, uh, accessibility that is consistent with their past. 

Do you probably remember some of the advertising from back in the days? You know, they had, uh, this famous campaign that I really loved. Uh, did you spend your youth dreaming about owning Someday a Nissan or Mitsubishi, which, you know, the Porsche on the ad. So I think, yeah, that's, uh, that's like a, a fascinating brand that as a full disclaimer, Porsche. 

He's one of the LGS client. Uh, we, we work with them in, in, in China, but as we have worked also with lots of other car brands, uh, I have to say that, and I'm not driving a [00:40:00] Porsche by the way, but I have to say that I'm quite impressed, uh, by the way they have managed to build. And by the way, they also manage to go through different cycles and cultural cycles by remaining so relevant. 

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I, it's interesting you bring up the advertising campaigns that they've run over the years. The example that he gave of that 1970s ad is, is, I, I didn't know about that, I must say. Um, but it was a remarkably prescient thing to admit that even then people don't need what we're making. Um, but if you want it and you find it desirable, then we're here for you. that, that is a, a, a position that more brands have taken recently. But to have been doing that 50 years ago is, is quite extraordinary. And I wonder if that's partly what's given this sort of bedrock of success that Porsche's enjoyed for a long time, particularly over the last 10, 15, 20 years or so, as we've sort of moved into this era of wanting brands that talk to us in a real way, this sort of plastic humor that some brands might adopt or this. 

Plastic value that some brands might adopt is very off-put ultimately. But if you've got a brand that says, look, we don't, we know you don't really need this, [00:41:00] but if you want it, then we're here for you. That's, that becomes quite attractive. 

David Sadigh: You know, a couple of days ago I met my friend Bruno, uh, with like a high executive at p and g and I asked him, where is your Porsche? He had a nine 11 and he told me, sadly I had to sell it. That was one of the saddest day of my life. And I think this is like probably a good, uh, illustration of the emotional deep connection that those like, uh, Porsche clients, uh, have with their cars. 

I. 

Robin Swithinbank: yeah, yeah. Well, I can understand that sadly. Uh, I've never had the day when I've had to sell my Porsche, so, uh, I've never had experienced that moment of sadness. Um, I dunno whether that's a sad story or not. Um, maybe I'll find out one day in life. Look, David, I think, uh, that's, uh, that's, that's a really interesting wrap on, uh, on the conversation that we've had with Dennis. 

Um, thank you again to Dennis and to Porsche for, for sharing all those insights with us. We hope, uh, you have enjoyed them. 

David Sadigh: Thanks, Robin.  

Robin: Now I'm very pleased to welcome back to the pod Benedict D's partner and international client director for this episode on the download bene. Great to see you. What's in the download this week? 

Benedicte: [00:42:00] Hi Robin. Great to be back. In this episode, I want to talk about the growth story of Jacob and Co. 

Robin: Oh yes, Jacob. The modern watchmaking fairytale un, an unmissable brand, uh, breaks the internet. Every time Rihanna wears a choker, or at least wears a watch as a choker, there appear to be few brands that are growing faster than Jacob ABOs brand. What are you guys seeing? 

Benedicte: So what's fascinating is the scale of their growth trajectory. As you know, our data and intelligence team use search data, social media data, and many other KPIs to basically derive the popularity and commercial success of, you know, luxury brands. And back in 2020, Jacob and co recorded around like 300,000 searches a month globally on, on Google, which was roughly three times less than what brands like Richard Mille and A VC were generating at the time. 

But. Fast forward to 2024 and they're now recording the same level of interest on Google globally. Then IVC, which is about 1.5 to 1.6 million searches a month, and they even overtook the giant Richard Mille in summer 2024 racking records with over 3 million searches a month. So they basically evolved. 
 

Yeah. 
 

Robin: Um, partly because you moved in your chair and it made quite a lot of noise. oh yeah. The squeaky chair syndrome. But also, um, y se in English is IWC and I think that'll get a bit lost if, um, so I should have, sorry, I should have mentioned that after the 
 

Benedicte: Did I say 
 

Robin: uh, you said I, they CI think, I think, I think IW say IWC. 
 

So go, go, go back to, back in 2020, Jacob. And co recorded. And, and we'll start from there again. 
 

Benedicte: Back in 2020, Jacob and co recorded around 300,000 searches a month globally on Google, which is roughly three times less than what brands like Richard Mill and IWC were generating at the time. But fast forward to 2024 and they're now recording the same level of interest on Google globally than I wc, which is circa 1.5, [00:43:00] 1.6 million. 

Searches a month and they even overtook Richard Mill. Yeah. They even overtook Giant Richard Mill in summer 2024 Bracking records with over 3 million searches in one month. 

Robin: It's still you. 
 

Benedicte: They've, that's okay. So they basically evolved like dramatically and all among the brands with the highest recording growth. If you look at 2023 versus 2024 data. 

Robin: Great. So what's driving this surge? 

Benedicte: There are three key factors that stand out in my opinion. First, their celebrity strategy is very diverse. First, their celebrity strategy is diverse. They work with sports stars like Christiano, Ronaldo, Christiano, Ronaldo, NEMA, and musicians, like ASAP, Rocky, and also bolly Wood actors. Which enables them to kind of like target many people across the globe. 

Second, they've embraced what our team calls ostentatious luxury rather than quiet luxury. Their social content deliberately highlights the bold and flashy aspects of their product, which align perfectly with their celebrities known for over the top style like Kana McGregor, which I'm sure you've seen. 

Robin: They're shy and retiring. Conor McGregor? [00:44:00] Yes. Uh, anything else? 

Benedicte: Well, yeah, the, the third factor in my opinion comes directly from Benjamin Harbo, Jacob's son and current co in a recent interview who's been a real, in a recent interview. He's basically, you know, openly mentioned that he had been pushing for platforms such as TikTok, uh, which we see there, like among one of the most like active brands on there and on Instagram. 

And they've created distinct content strategy for those different platforms. They're more playful, for instance, on TikTok versus the usual like craftmanship and uh, footage that they push on on Instagram. 

Robin: Well, it strikes me this is all quite personality led as well. I mean, Jacob's strategy is very aggressive. It's audacious. I mean, at times it can be populist as well. Um, many understated brands in watches and jewelry will, they'll never adopt this sort of strategy, but all the same. There must be learnings for luxury professionals. 

What would you take away from the example? 

Benedicte: Well on top of some of the things that have already been mentioned, first, I think what they do really well is to leverage relevant cultural moments like the Jacob, the Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson, boxing match or product placement in shows like White Lotus. They actually push all of this quite and politically on their social media channels. 
 

 Unapologetically. That was it. 
 

Robin: Got it. It's a lot. A lot of 
 

Benedicte: Sorry. Don't, don't, don't fuck me. 
 

Robin: start with. Start with. Start with first, 
 

Benedicte: Yeah. 
 

Robin: leverage, blah, blah. 
 

Benedicte: First, what they do really well is to leverage relevant cultural moments like the Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson [00:45:00] boxing match. Or product placements in shows like White Lotus, uh, they actually push all of this on their own social, like media brand accounts. And these even driven approach I think is something that, you know, luxury professional like should keep in mind. 

And second, that like founder, like person. And second, the, the founder's personal presence, uh, remains central to their strategy. And we've seen other brands do it, for instance, like Jacque Mu, and it works really well for them. So like Jacob and Jacob Rabo, if he frequently appears in their content. Um, and these personal connection really resonates, uh, with audiences who value authenticity more and more. 

Robin: Yes. And there's always that opportunity or that that sense of opportunity that someday as a consumer you might yet meet the founder. Um, as you say, um, that sort of personal connection drives, uh, consumers to a brand in a way that, uh, much older, her heritage brands will always, uh, well of course they'll never be able to do it anyway. 

Benet, we must leave it there. Um, fascinating and, and, uh. Even, I can't say the words today. Whew. Nine o'clock on a Monday morning. We can do this Anyway, Benny, we, we must, uh, anyway, Benny, we must leave it there. Fascinating analysis as always. We will see you in the next episode for more data-driven revelations. 
 

Thank you, 

Benedicte: [00:46:00] Thanks, Robin. 

Robin: Juliette. We'll do the next one better. I 

Robin Swithinbank: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now. 

I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.