Turning tides: how to woo the new Chinese luxury consumer

In this episode of the Luxury Society Podcast, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh explore the rapidly evolving landscape of the Chinese luxury consumer market. 

Joined by Pablo Mauron, Managing Partner China & Board Member at DLG (Digital Luxury Group) and expert on luxury brands in China, the conversation delves into the shifting preferences and growing confidence of Chinese buyers.

Key topics discussed:

• The Paradigm Shift: How the Chinese luxury consumer has matured in a short period, evolving from an "educated" consumer to one with distinct preferences and a stronger sense of self.
• The Role of Young Consumers: Despite the rise of high-net-worth individuals, younger consumers continue to lead trends, reshaping brand expectations and influencing older generations of buyers.
• Cultural Sensitivity in Branding: The importance of reinterpreting Chinese cultural symbols with authenticity, as brands like Gucci and Burberry have done with elements like bamboo weaving craftsmanship and the iconic bamboo handbag.
• Local Innovation and Global Impact: How Chinese consumers are embracing local products like EV cars and beauty brands while still appreciating global luxury, fostering a dynamic market ripe for local innovation.
• The New Tier One Cities: A look at how brands are expanding into China's emerging cities, such as Chengdu and Wuhan, and how the luxury retail footprint is diversifying beyond the traditional tier one cities.
• Travel Resurgence and Opportunities Abroad: With China lifting its outbound travel restrictions, the conversation touches on how luxury brands should rethink their marketing strategies for Chinese travellers, who represent a significant portion of global luxury sales.

Brought to you by https://digitalluxurygroup.com/

Follow us @digitalluxurygroup & @robin_swithinbank on Instagram

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025 www.fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

main ep

Robin Swithinbank: [00:00:00] 

Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swithinbank.

David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh. 

Robin Swithinbank: In this

podcast, David and I explore the ins and outs of the luxury business, a haunted but fast changing sector that is no more immune to changing political and economic tides than any other, and indeed one that is currently being buffed by the crashing waves of inflation, fluctuating currencies, rising labor costs, and of course, the looming threat of President Trump's tariffs to say nothing of unpredictable global consumer sentiment.

How is the luxury sector shaping up and who's finding a new form quickest? These are the sort of questions we'll be addressing in this podcast. In this episode, we'll be taking a deep dive into the story of the new Chinese luxury consumer. How are they defined? What do they want and who's making waves of their own with newly confident buyers who are once again traveling the world in search of new experiences and new products.

[00:01:00] David, on with the show. 

David Sadigh: Let's do it.

David Sadigh: 

Pablo Mauron: In the past you would have once or twice a year, typically Chinese New Year milestones where brands would. Come up with their China limited editions. and to put it simply, it was a lot about using quite gimmicky codes,

 Today, Shanghai is probably one of the most mature and sophisticated coffee scene in the world. 

I don't know if brands should double down, but I definitely know that this is not the time to slow down,

Robin Swithinbank: And it's now my pleasure to welcome a new guest onto the podcast, Pablo Marron. Pablo is a board member of Digital Luxury Group and DGS managing Partner China. He's been based in China for the past decade and leads a team that runs consulting social media, e-commerce, CRM, and creative projects for a host of major luxury and premium brands.

And he joins David and me now to discuss the rise of the new Chinese luxury consumer. 

 Pablo, welcome [00:02:00] and thank you for coming on the pod.

Pablo Mauron: Hi, Robin. Thanks for having me. Hi, David. Very excited to be here.

Robin Swithinbank: So I've just mentioned the new Chinese luxury consumer. Who are we actually talking about here? I.

Pablo Mauron: Well, I think what is fascinating about that topic is that we tend to always refer about different type of demographics when we talk about the audience. I think that when we talk about. The new consumer in China is a much more generic concept, as the result of Covid pretty much.

what we've been observing is that in the past we always looked at the Chinese consumer as a consumer that needed education. it's a word that I personally never liked, but that was the way we refer to them. They didn't know how to consume, how to appreciate luxury products, and they needed brands to educate them.

What happens, as we all know with China, is that things evolve very fast. Consumers have matured and evolved very fast. What is very interesting is that as a result of Covid, [00:03:00] they've done that pretty much from 2020 to 2023. With very little to not say none, of the external influencers that we're getting.

And I think that coincided with a growing confidence in themself, in their own taste. and really the rise of a type of consumer now that dictates their own preference, that dictates their own trends, that has more, belief, and confidence about themself, about also.

Obviously the way they perceive their Chinese identity and the way that they're proud about that and that clearly redistributes, how brands should develop their localization efforts in order to still cater to them and to still be relevant to them.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, so let's try and unpack that a little bit. assuming brands have recognized this shift, this sort of post education phase, perhaps we might call it, where are they now turning their focus? I.

Pablo Mauron: So I, I think there is two things, right? the [00:04:00] first one is that the middle class was the growth engine of China. there was not a single brand that was not looking at targeting that growing middle class. and that middle class naturally contracted a as a result of, Of the expected covid rebound that didn't really happen.

more turmoil and questions about the future, less confidence,and as a result, direct impact on their consumption. And so we're really talking about two things here. One that was, I would say a very obvious and tactical decision from brands to refocus on I net worth individuals and their VI.

That were naturally less impacted by, the current context. but also, again, acknowledging that among those I net worth individuals and the VIC, the mindset had changed their expectations from brands that evolved.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, so E, even before this shift, one of the things that I think was quite clear with [00:05:00] China was that age was no real barrier to accessing luxury in China. this new

Pablo Mauron: Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: that you are describing, are younger consumers still playing an active role?

Pablo Mauron: That, that hasn't changed. I think that very often in other markets, you tend to make an association, middle class, young consumers with an as option that the older you get, the more you are purchasing power increase. We all know that China has, on average the youngest luxury consumer. so, so at some point you, you really have a distinction in terms of spending power not so much defined by age.

however, the importance of those young consumers is even like exacerbated now. as a result of, again, them leading and paving a little bit the way for that new type of consumer, those new expectations that are very much influenced by local social media, and by all the other aspirations that they have developed.

Robin Swithinbank: So what exactly is it that the younger consumers are looking for? and [00:06:00] if that's influential over older generations of consumers,what effect is that having on the way brands are talking about themselves?

Pablo Mauron: I, I think the first topic is really when it comes to cultural appreciation. we often joke about it, right? In the past you would have once or twice a year, typically Chinese New Year milestones where brands would. Come up with their China limited editions. and to put it simply, it was a lot about using quite gimmicky codes, over usage of the red color.

some almost cliche symbolism around the number eight, around auspicious animals like the dragons. and you would come up with your China edition and the consumer was touched by those initiative. now it takes much more to do that because you need to do it in a way that it's highly credible to people that value much more, that's heritage.

and you need to reinterpret it in a way that is still relevant with your [00:07:00] positioning as a Western brand. But that is not gonna sound too off. 

Robin Swithinbank: and

give us some examples.

Pablo Mauron: we see many examples of brands now that approach, that localization efforts. Going way deeper in terms of how they approach that. I think that before it was very light on the product and mostly a marketing and communication exercise.

Now we see a need for brands to really develop substances around it. we have some example of brands that have significantly tap into that. for example, Burberry, who's celebrating bamboo weaving craftsmanship for the year of the snakes, they crafted nine different installations in selected stores, launched digital collectibles around it, Gucci, as well as, as strongly emphasized on, on, on a very historical, line and product of Gucci, which is the bamboo handbag.

and growing really deep on elements of Chinese heritage and appreciation for the culture and how you are bending the bamboo and those type of things. so, so this is the first [00:08:00] big things right? the, that, that way of reinterpreting the culture, but in a highly respectful and credible way.

the other implication is that, Because of that audience, like really forged their own preferences over the years and is very confident about it now. it, it made a lot of topics relevant again and on the rise, even for the young generation. To give you a few examples, you talk about feng shui, right?

Feng shui, which is probably the most well known,Chinese discipline. All the symbolism associated to it. van cleef and arpels, for example,has significantly gained from the fact that there are different gem colors are associated to different meanings of good fortune and good luck.

and we literally see the young generations now posting online about what color of van Apples jewels you should. Depending on what type of good fortune you wanna [00:09:00] welcome in your life. so you have like references to traditional culture that are being, again, relevant and contemporary. And you also have emerging ones because the market has an incredible, way to, I would say digest western influence.

But to turn it into something that is very specific. 

Robin Swithinbank: And what would be a good example of that?

Pablo Mauron: Um, I like the example of 10 years ago, there were no coffee shops in China. Then suddenly it was the Starbucks empire. Today, Shanghai is probably one of the most mature and sophisticated coffee scene in the world. and you might be smiling when I say that, but it's the case I hear from people visiting Shanghai, from Europe, from the us.

And bringing back coffee beans. Not only they very quickly match that, but they also develop their own twist to it. You got local brands like Manor that have developed American or coffee. [00:10:00] Declined across dozens of versions mixed with coconut juice, mixed with, ginger l mixed with green tea, mixed with, believe it or not, Taiwanese cheese.

And so I think that all of that illustrates a lot, the dynamism of the market and the propensity that was not necessarily there before of either taking. Old cultural or traditional cultural symbols are creating new ones. And so for brands that, that creates a very broad range of opportunities. But again, also a challenge that it has to be developed with a lot of consistency and credibility.

I was talking about the coffee. Louis Vuitton were the first one to partner with Manor, that coffee shop brand that I'm mentioning. many brands after that have followed on a similar path. there was the trend of C walk that started during covid, which consisted in simply walking your own city and rediscover it.

for example, has collaborated with those [00:11:00] rental bikes, companies to, to allow people to do their CityWalk and their city tour on bike. so you see multiple influencers that are all mixing up and that result into a very. Specific and local flavor. I would say

Robin Swithinbank: Sounds like we're going to need to, rewrite the idiom. It's no longer for all the tea in China. It's for all the coffee in China.

Pablo Mauron: it, it exactly is.

Robin Swithinbank: Sorry for the very poor joke, but, David,what's your take on this?

David Sadigh: It looks to me that the level of domestic innovation is still really strong. according to what you were just saying, how do you relate to what's happening also in term of like local luxury, premium, brands development, electric vehicles, maybe some local, watch brand, starting, jewelry pieces. is there like a new era also for like, domestic,Chinese luxury brands?

Pablo Mauron: I think the point you raised is spot on in the way that. when we looked at the [00:12:00] rise of domestic brands, all the discussions were about whether the knowhow was there. Do they know how to do branding? Do they know how to do quality products? I think that there was another big question, which was is the audience ready to consume local products for categories that were traditionally associated to a Western expertise?

And I think that as a result of those past three years of consumer. Gaining in confidence, gaining in pride too. It's created a very relevant, foundation for local brands to rise, as we can see with EV cars, as we can see with beauty. on the topic of EV cars, we could talk for an hour about the USP that they have developed and the competitive advantages they have developed.

What they also needed was to have consumers that were ready to consider them. for beauty is the same. I personally, I think we all have already witnessed the upcoming [00:13:00] disruption from Chinese ev I expect to see similar disruption with Chinese beauty brands because now they have a fantastic.

Sandbox to play with, which is the local market that is eager to welcome them and to adopt them.

David Sadigh: So BYD being like, now considered the biggest,company in the world, Tesla, potentially losing ground, this doesn't come as a surprise to you.

Pablo Mauron: No, it doesn't. And I don't think that BBYD is,is the flagship of that movement because they have the numbers for themselves. Wait to see brands like Xmi, Niang or Young that are truly challenging luxury players on their own turf to impact.

Robin Swithinbank: Fascinating. I, we must think geographically as well. When it comes to China.Before the pandemic brands were expanding into tier two, tier three cities, it was all very fast and almost slightly panicked. this continued or are we now seeing brands rationalize their [00:14:00] approach?

Pablo Mauron: Yeah, it's for 10 years when you were talking about tier one cities in China, it was always the 3 cent, right? Shanghai, Beijing, Shezhen slash Guang jo, that everybody was putting together, even though it's two very different cities. that has significantly evolved. and this is again, in the concept of the new.

Luxury consumer in China,those new pocket of growth are very important. we refer to the new tier one cities, right? we see more and more of those brands that have demonstrated very strong potential. Chengdu has discussed a lot in the center of China, Wuhan, for example, with SKP, who just opened a very massive mall, Hy with Center 66, where Elms is back after 11 years.

And so it's interesting because it contrasts a lot, right? On the one way, we have an entire narrative about. Luxury brands rationalizing their footprint in the market and so on, but at the same time, you clearly see them also, making an impact on those new tier one cities. in [00:15:00] some cases when brands can afford it and are bold enough, it's with direct store openings.

If that's not the case, you will definitely see those cities being targeted from, events, experiential and marketing initiatives.

Robin Swithinbank: Similarly before the pandemic smart brands were considering the Chinese consumer as much as consumers in China. If we can make the distinction there, Chinese outbound travelers were taking their purchasing power to major cities all over the world. But then of course, the pandemic threw that outta balance while China banned outbound travel. With that ban now lifted, should brands be realigning their marketing and distribution strategies?

Pablo Mauron: absolutely. just to recall a little bit on where we are right now. Right. before Covid it was estimated that the total contribution of Chinese consumers for the luxury industry was happening one third domestically, two third as a result of covid. Not all, but that was allowing the.

[00:16:00] Right now in a context where travel, in my point of view, still hasn't fully resumed. I'll talk about that later, but today we're already at 60% domestically, 40% abroad according to, recenter estimates. So, so the big question is, are we gonna go back to a one third, two third scenario? Something a little bit more balanced.

But the fact is that we're already at 60 40. And in a context where travel has mostly resumed in the region. Over the past year, Southeast Asia was all the race. We're talking about Singapore. Thailand being like the next big markets for the luxury industry. We know that it was mostly stimulated by Chinese travelers or DPO or expatriates.

This year is all about Japan. O obviously stimulated by, the favorable exchange rate and so on. we start to have signs that pretty much the [00:17:00] travel habits are growing, regarding the distance. I think that at first. There, there is always a mix in what are gonna be the travel considerations, right?

people are obviously gonna look at, especially right after Covid and right after the reopening, there was an element of safety and convenience. People didn't want to go too far. And if you look right now at the way, travel is, is operated from China, you can still feel that distance plays a role.

the second one is obviously that, at the end of the day, yes, consumers want experience. Yes, consumers want great stories to tell, but at the end of the day, the price difference is also gonna be a factor. And again, Japan was always a very favor destination for Chinese tourists, but it really boomed as soon as the currency went lower.

So in that context. Knowing that you're not gonna be able to hop on a on a time machine and cancel travel again, it's very important for brands in general and local teams specifically [00:18:00] to not look at overseas spending as a threat to their business. It's gonna happen no matter what. It's irreversible.

We believe that there is actually an opportunity around that. In a context where everybody talks about the fact that the market is not growing in a context where most of the brand strategies focus now on existing consumers and VIC because it's more and more difficult to acquire new customers. We believe that overseas spans can become a very relevant channel for new customer acquisition because if I've never purchased the Louis Vuitton bag in my life, what better occasion than my next trip to Paris to do it?

So it's important for brands that they start to acknowledge that and start to support that also,with the relevant strategies and tools to make it a reality, especially when it comes to very key channels in that context that are CRM client telling and so on.

Robin Swithinbank: There was a slight sense beforehand that some brands put too many eggs in the Chinese [00:19:00] basket. They became too reliant on the Chinese market. And then of course, when Covid struck, it left a number of brands very heavily exposed. do you think brands should be stepping forward with some degree of trepidation at this point? Or actually, is it time to go all in and try and woo the Chinese customer back?

Pablo Mauron: the question has been for a while now. when are we gonna see growth in the market again? Right? again, from a pure domestic consumption point of view. And what we can see is that every quarter it gets better. It's still not great. We're still negative, but every quarter we are getting closer to being flat.

And after that opening for growth, In the context of the tariff, and that's not the question of today, but obviously the first question that came to mind with China was like, what are gonna be the impacts, et cetera. But the reality is that we believe that right now in the context where the luxury industry has to, and I'm doing the parallel of maybe counting too much on China.

Probably now is the time to not count [00:20:00] too much on the us. You're gonna look at the rest of the world, and if you look at the rest of the world, it's impossible to ignore China. We believe that we're at a very critical crossroad right now, and it's gonna be absolutely key for brands to do the right thing to not delay their rebound, and that means maintaining their marketing investment because now is not the time to have cold feet and to start like reducing your investment in the market.

That, by the way, contributes domestically, but also globally. Taking into consideration the travelers. Playing their cards, right when it comes to pricing strategy, promotion, strategy,and this is gonna be very key. So to your question, should we double down? I don't know if brands should double down, but I definitely know that this is not the time to slow down, because we believe that the end of the tunnel is closed and.

Every,every measure taken against that now would only delay a [00:21:00] rebound that we finally see coming.

Robin Swithinbank: That's really interesting. we've talked about geography, we talked about generations, we've talked about cultural identity, we've talked about the brands that are doing this well, and particularly the way that they target vs. at some point there's this simply become a case of, uh. and maintaining consumer relationships of applying the laws of CRM. Um, do we sort of move back into a, almost like a regular, I don't wanna say routine phase 'cause nothing is routine in this world anymore, but, rules gonna be the same or are they gonna be new rules which, brands need to apply when it comes to CRM?

Pablo Mauron: the rules have already changed. I think that CRM is an incredible topic when it comes to China because just like a lot of other things, but I. The channels are not the same. The regulations, even though similar are not the same. and especially without going into too much technical details, there are a lot of challenges for brands to collect globally data in the same way.

It requires brands to build their own infrastructures in the market if they want to [00:22:00] do it right. And most of them have done it as a result of the PIPL, which is the equivalent of GDPR. launch in China a couple of years ago. but this is not just addressed with technical workarounds.

I was mentioning different channels. client telling is absolutely everywhere in the market. There is not a single luxury brand store that you can visit where it's not gonna be normal to directly connect with your personal WeChat. So the equivalent of WhatsApp. With your personal accounts directly with, with a brand associates or with a member of the retail staff that becomes the first CRM channel.

And so brands add naturally globally an approach to CRM, which was very much a message from me, the brands to you, the consumer. And right now what is happening is that most of those CRM communications. No matter if they're like, very, formal or informal alongside the consumer [00:23:00] lifecycle journey, are actually delegated,to the retail teams.

And so there, there is a very important playbook that, that has already been redefined and that brands are some of them fast, some of them less, but are transitioning towards That's the first element how really the day-to-day CRM operates. The second one is that, in that context, as you mentioned, of realigning their efforts as the result of a brand elevation strategy on V Cs.

Those V Cs experience have become absolutely critical for brands. we see brands organizing events for the sole purpose of delighting their vs. Making them feel special. we're talking about. Van Cliff and Apples hosting very exclusive events,in rural China because they want to bring their consumers to a very exclusive destination in the mountains at the Vietnamese border.

we're talking about brands that [00:24:00] starts to organize experiences. That in some cases are part of a bigger strategy. My VIC first, my general audience after that, and all the word of mouth on social media that we'll follow. But we also start to see brands investing very significantly on very exclusive and very confidential events, to support that VIC relationship.

Robin Swithinbank: David, I just wanna ask you, because you are based in Geneva rather than in China, and therefore much closer, we might say geographically, at least to most of the traditional, luxury brands. what are you picking up,while you are in Geneva from those brands when it comes to their perspective on China at the moment, both as an opportunity but also as a threat?

As we've heard, there are a number of brands being developed in China, which have a lot of local appeal. which have an increasingly international appeal as well. Are brands excited about the, dare I say it, recovery in China, or they're approaching it with some sense of nervousness?

David Sadigh: You, can feel a bit like two type of, let's say vibes, [00:25:00] around, those topics. One is like, entry level brand, I would say that focus mostly on middle class that could afford to buy their product based on salary and so on. And let's face it, those people are really facing a slowdown and you can really feel that, they are like eager, to see the market, rebounding. In one other hand, I think that, we shouldn't forget the fact that the number of high net worth individual in China has been growing extremely fast over the last couple of years and is still growing. So you have more and more millionaires in China right now. The number sounds like impressive. it's nearly like 4 million. Of millionaires, in China. So yes, some of them are probably a bit stressed out about the state of the real estate market and so on. But I think the point Pablo mentioned about brands such as Wcl and Apples, or Aires or Patek, Philippe or Rolex, all those brands that are like targeting high net worth and [00:26:00] ultra high net worth people in China. I think that they are like much more confident, in the current state and health of the market.

Robin Swithinbank: Interesting. gentlemen, I think we should probably draw our conversation to a close at this point. it has been extremely eyeopening listening to you and to your insights on what's happening from inside China at the moment, and we're very grateful to you for them. Thank you so much for joining us.

Pablo Mauron: Thank you guys. 

David Sadigh: Uh, do you mind?

Robin: And I'm pleased once again to welcome back onto the pod for our regular on the download slot. Benedict Terrace, d G's partner and international client Director Bene.

Hello, welcome back. you unearthed for us in this episode?

Benedicte: Hi Robert, and great to be back. In this episode, I want to spotlight the rapid growth of the Middle East as an increasingly important market for high-end jewelry brands.

Robin: Uh, it strikes me that the Middle East jewelry tradition runs deep already, but what can we say is different now?

Benedicte: Well, you're right. And while the region has always been, present in luxury brand strategy [00:27:00] and doesn't yet match the, the rule search volumes and interest of established markets like the us, France, or India, what's noteworthy is the exceptional pace of growth that we notice here. at DLG, we use a lot of search and social media data.

To understand how like brands derive like, their commercial success and popularity and our data shows that Saudi Arabia, for instance, is experiencing a 27.5% year over year growth in jewelry search demand, with other countries in the region like Jordan and Qatar showing similar strong momentum at 26 and 22% year over year growth respectively.

 the growth is happening in the region. Why? Because the UAE, and Saudi Arabia have amongst the highest social media penetration globally, uh, with over a hundred percent, which mean that people usually have like several accounts under, the name. 

The ecosystem is also quite specific there. Of course, you have platforms like, you know, like meta present, but Snapchat is also a big player in the region, and [00:28:00] Saudi Arabia has actually more active users than the uk, over 24 million.

Robin: Okay, so how are the luxury jewelry brands responding to this growth

Benedicte: On, on top of adapting their strategy to those platform. Uh, what we see is a big surge in the volume of ads that they actually push, for instance, through meta. To give you an example, if we take Van Clef and Arples since January, 2024 in the UE in Saudi Arabia, they launched over 1400 ads, which is actually like quite similar to what they've done in the us.

 similarly Growing brands like a PM Monaco, uh, have done the same thing. They've launched pretty much the same number of ads in both markets, and so this aggressive digital marketing approach really reflects for us a shift, uh, in interest. And they no longer consider, the Middle East as a secondary market was really as a, next growth, opportunity for them.

Robin: What are they putting in these [00:29:00] campaigns?

Benedicte: Well, I'm sure you have seen that there's been a wave of Arab brand ambassadorships brands like Tiffany, me and more recently Bush, uh, have all appointed new ambassadors from the region. And on top of that, we are also seeing major physical expansion to, you know, reach those audiences locally while before, people used to travel a lot to Europe, for instance.

Now those brands like, Cartier uh, who have recently like hosted a high jewelry exhibition in Dubai, they want to attract people there locally. And we also see many other luxury houses opening their flagship boutiques in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and so on. even online, if we take, the CEO of mytheresa, Michael Kliger, in terms of what's the importance for him of the market, he recently said that, the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia was currently.

The most interesting and fastest growing opportunity for them even ahead of the us.

Robin: And what impact is [00:30:00] this having on jewelry brand performance in terms of search?

Benedicte: Well, from what we see again in, our tools, it's really working for many of these brands, you know, to have invested across all these different points. take apm monaco for instance, They have recorded exceptional growth there almost 10 times.

The number of searches that they used to record like year over year in Saudi Arabia alone, which means that there they actually outperformed established brands like PIaget and Chopard, for instance.

Robin: Well, Ben, we must leave it there, but thank you. That's, fascinating to hear the Middle East very much, coming into its own, as you say, no longer secondary, but very much a primary market. 

Benedicte: Thank you, Robin. Speak next time.

Robin Swithinbank: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now.

I've been your host, Robin [00:31:00] Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.