Hammer time: Bonhams' CEO Chabi Nouri on the booming auction scene

In this episode, Robin Swithinbank is joined by Chabi Nouri, Global CEO of Bonhams and former CEO of Piaget, to explore the dynamic world of luxury auctions. From classic cars and contemporary art to collectible watches and rare artifacts, Bonhams operates across 60+ categories with an expanding global footprint.

Chabi shares why she moved from private equity back into luxury, what makes Bonhams unique in today’s market, and how consumer behaviour is evolving in the high-end resale world. She discusses what’s hot (cars, jewellery, Asian art), what’s changing (younger, more digital collectors), and what lies ahead for both Bonhams and the broader auction market.

Highlights include: 

• Which auction categories are thriving right now
• The rise of international buyers and evolving collector demographics
• The emotional drivers behind collecting — from investment to nostalgia

Also in this Episode:

🔋China’s Luxury EV Surge
Pablo Mauron joins from Shanghai to break down the rise of Chinese EV brands like BYD, NIO, and Xiaomi. He explains how these brands are reshaping the premium automotive sector with innovative tech, family-first branding, and aggressive social media strategies — and what that means for the future of global mobility.

🔁 On the Download: The Resale Boom
Benedicte Soteras returns to dive into the latest data on the booming luxury resale market. She unpacks how platforms like Vestiaire Collective, Farfetch, and Watchfinder are growing fast, what it means for luxury brands, and how pre-owned searches now outpace primary market growth — especially in watches and jewellery.

Brought to you by https://digitalluxurygroup.com/

Follow us @digitalluxurygroup & @robin_swithinbank on Instagram

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025 www.fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

DLG Ep 7 - Chabi main ep

[00:00:00] 

Robin Swithinbank: Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swithinbank, and in this episode I'll be flying solo because my wingman, David Sadigh, has been called to, while other pressing matters of the luxury state, normal service will be resumed shortly. But I'm still in plenty of good company and in our bid to unravel the secrets of the luxury industry.

I'm delighted to say that in this episode I'll be joined by one of the sector's most influential voices and experience C-Suite exec, currently transforming one of the world's preeminent auction houses. I. We'll come to that in just a moment, but a quick note to thank our listeners who engaged so readily with our last episode and our juicy interview with Arch Palis, Jerry McGovern, Jerry's comments on his Jaguar rethink Elisted.

Well, a wide variety of responses from the very indignant to the highly expectant. The Luxury Society Podcast is just seven episodes in, but it's great to see a community of thoughtful, inquisitive minds springing up around it. [00:01:00] But back to this episode, shortly we'll be delving into the burgeoning luxury Chinese EV market.

That's electric vehicles made by brands you may not yet have heard of, but soon will. That'll be with the LGS Shanghai based Pablo Marron. And then beyond that. Pod regular Benedict CITAs. We'll be taking a quick look in on the download at the continuing growth of the secondary luxury markets where the heat is rising in a retail environment where primary sellers are battling apparently in terminable headwinds.

Right? Enough preamble on with the show. 

Robin Swithinbank: And it's now my great pleasure to welcome onto the Luxury Society Podcast. Shabi Nouri Global Chief Executive Officer of the Venerable Auction House Bonhams a position she assumed in October last year.

Swiss born Chabi CV reads like a luxury Bible. She made her name at Cartier in the two thousands before moving to British American Tobacco. And from there she was recruited back to [00:02:00] Ishma and to the watch and jewelry brand Piaget, which she would go on to serve as chief executive until 2021. Her stint in private equity with the Mirabaud group followed before she was wooed back into the world of exquisite objects to head up the privately owned British company.

Bonhams. Also has non-executive roles with watches of Switzerland Group, lucid Motors, and every watch. And today when she's not visiting one of Bonham's International Network of 14 showrooms, or attending one of the 700 odd sales it holds across more than 60 categories Every year, she splits her time between Geneva and London, where the auction house was founded in 1793. Chabi. Hello. Lovely to see you. Thank you so much for joining us, welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast. How are you?

Chabi Nouri: Thank you very much, Robin for the kind intro and I'm very happy to be here with you today and to, finally be able to,share some of the stories with you on, luxury Society Podcast.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, it's,it's a conversation we've been wanting to have for a while and goodness, you're only eight months into your new

Chabi Nouri: so [00:03:00] let's take a quick look back first, what drew you outta private equity to Bonhams and to the esoteric world of luxury auctions?

it feels very natural. this move feels natural for spending decades in luxury in creating, designing, manufacturing. And finding basically our first owners, I'm now focusing on the long life cycles of these unique, rare and exceptional items. and so it, it, for me, it feels very, a natural move and flow going from more primary to, in a way, the secondary, the lifecycle of these, rare objects, that the great artists of this world have given us.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. And across 60 plus categories,I mean a spectacular array of auctions covering an extraordinary list of items. my head was turned by the Miami auction at the beginning of May

Chabi Nouri: of the spectacular cars that went under the hammer there. not least, the Braun Formula one car from that. Oh, wonderful. F1 season of 2009.

Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: are there any categories among those 60 that you [00:04:00] are naturally drawn to or indeed that you have, that have proved eye-opening to you?

Chabi Nouri: I have my, of course, my own background and therefore, a more specific eye for some categories. But the Bonhams positioning is quite unique because we do cover an exceptionally, I would say, wide area of categories, covering the widest artist, the widest artistry, craftsmanship, talents, eras.

and that's. Quite fascinating. So we have a unique wealth of expertise, therefore in-house with all our, dedicated specialists. So it's difficult to say that there is one aspect. I think that's this positioning of Bonhams is exactly that, is that you can find. Everything a collectors is looking for within Bonhams Network, within Bonhams Group across the 14, sales room.

And we have, hundreds of specialists and experts that are dedicated and, studied their entire life to understand these amazing objects. so yes, that's probably something very unique that we have. And if we talk [00:05:00] about cars, because you mentioned cars. Yes. I had the pleasure to go to Miami.

It was amazing because Bonhams has, this very special, I would say, unique platform where we do a sale, on the racetrack, right after the qualifications. so it's quite spectacular. You have the podium as being the place. You see the auctions happening. You have the cars. Passing one after the other on the track in front of all the enthusiast collectors and buyers and vendors and so on.

So it's quite, unique and fascinating. I was very excited. but yes, so the car side on top of all of it is probably one of the most, I would say, dynamic and, emotionally, I would say driven because it's an environment especially, they're F1 full of passion racing, competition, winning, and in fact doing an auction, that's what you do.

You compete, you win. And ultimately, that's quite powerful.

Robin Swithinbank: the natural competitor in you. Perhaps that's what it is. try and contextualize some of this as we get into more of [00:06:00] the detail and leverage the broad perspective that you bring to this conversation. it's no secret that the luxury market is, it's battling strong headwinds at the moment, and we've discussed that in previous episodes of this podcast.

Now you've worked through a number of challenging seasons for the luxury industry, including the financial crisis of 2008, and of course more recently the pandemic. How does the season that we're now in, in this current climate, how does it compare to those and how well set do you think the luxury industry is to face up to today's challenges?

Well first thank you for making me, um, you know, I was there too.

Chabi Nouri: all the many crisis in the industries. but first of all, I think any kind of crisis has always, I. shown and always illustrated the fact that the luxury specific industry has been super resilient and basically comes back higher. And I think we saw that many times.

Even if we start, before the 2000. So in a way it's a usually a time where you,rethink, you refocus on the priority. [00:07:00] You look at your company again, and your positioning, you focus back to the priority. and at the same time is. Some, somehow also moments where companies make big, bold moves and take risks.

So overall, I would say that yes, I've seen, as you said, many and, and you too. but it's usually have made at least election industry, stronger. I think that's potentially what we're going through right now. And yes, the environment is quite unique. it's always a unique one every time we see one.

but this one is unique because we deal with so much unpredictability. it comes from all directions, financial world, the macroeconomic, the geographic, the political. it is a little bit all over the place. And at the same time, I have to say, if you look at, the market itself, It's quite resilient, knowing all these uncertainties, the consumer sentiment that you also talked about in the previous podcast.

It's clearly not at the highest, but at the same time, it is, still very resilient. and transactions are being done all over the world [00:08:00] in many aspects. So for me that's, again, a way to rethink. But not to panic, and hopefully I am. I'm right.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Well, goodness, panic is, is never a good response, is it? And necessity is the mother of all invention. And you mentioned how some brands will take big risks. some brands will take a very sort of steep innovation curve and good may well come of it. but let's think about the auction market in particular.

it's still a relatively arcane, relatively opaque world that not everybody understands. Now a luxury audience would certainly understand it and be aware of it and familiar with the names of some of its big players. Bonhams is obviously being one of them. Sotheby's, Christie's, Phillips, and so on.

Chabi Nouri: some people might perhaps not be intimately aware of how the sector works and what's happening in it at the moment, and obviously we'll come to some of that in just a moment, but would you define the shape of the auction scene in the here and now?

It's a very dynamic, space, and that's what I think is very exciting. We see everyday newcomers joining this world,from the dealers, the galleries, the, collectors [00:09:00] themself, influencers, new marketplaces. It's. Every day there is a newcomer and it shows the dynamicism of the industry. So that's also what I like.

Yes, it is competitive and yes, competition makes us all being better at the end. And I think we all need to continuously improve. And I think that this is clearly what Bonhams has always been doing is engaging the best with the clients and making sure that. We treat and we preserve and we promote the value of the object.

That's really the mission of the company. So it is a market that is very dynamic, very active. there are so many sales. If you combine all the sales of all these different houses, on players. Dealers You probably have, hundreds a day.

So it shows that there is a lot of interest, there is interest into this object, into it is drawn by passion, by, the need to have this final piece within a collection, but also as investment. that's the auction world today. And, I think that a lot of the fact that it's really [00:10:00] online, that you can find a lot of information today.

It's not really an opec, place.

Robin Swithinbank: No, P is probably the wrong word, 

Chabi Nouri: not everybody's been into an auction sale room, but as you say, a lot of it happens online these days anyway, which most of us are very comfortable with. I'm going back to those 60 plus collecting categories. which of those are proving most attractive to buyers at the moment and which are gathering momentum?

Again, I think it goes back to a bit of what I said is that the market is still here and is still there and transacting a lot. it's quite resilient. It's holding, it's difficult to say because the collectors, they really do purchase or sell for so many different reasons. so you have the ones that are very financial investment related, and then you have the ones that are more.

Because of, a passion or a clear dedication to a specific field. And then we see some fields that are absolutely not moving. Whatever happens in the outside world, they're super consistent, super resilient. and then the ones that are very. I would say, sensitive to, the financial market, for [00:11:00] example.

So it is difficult to say, and that's probably one of the reason why it's interesting at Bonahms, is because we do, have so many diverse categories and at the same time different type of clients and different regions. That's really help, us to be super, I would say,balanced. 

Robin Swithinbank: but which categories in particular though, I mean, we mentioned cars earlier, didn't we? is the car auction market really strong at the moment? Or the watch market or the ceramics or sculpture or, all these different categories you cover? where are you seeing the heat in the market at the moment?

Chabi Nouri: So it's clear that, I live for Bonhams, the cars, the contemporary art, uh, but Asian art, very, very strong. Middle East, Islamic art, very, very strong. The Jewellery is very strong market today. And I would say the very well balanced one is more the classics. Uh, you always have people interested into it.

You all have, people coming into, and it's interesting 'cause it's not only, as you would imagine the older generation now, the younger are coming back to, more local traditions. They wanna understand, the depth of the history of these objects. So it's [00:12:00] very interesting to see that.

Actually happening and we see it in our own, client base and client, dynamics. Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: are there any that are cooling, is interest dying off in any of these categories or is the auction market so healthy that actually every category is in good shape at the moment.

Chabi Nouri: No, I would say that, it's clear that the wine,and whiskey market has been challenged last years across the industry. the car had maybe three, four years ago some hiccup, and now it's back. so it really depends. The contemporary art market is still holding well, every time you read something about it, so it's, it is really difficult to 

 really take out the truth of it. You saw the watch sales also that went really strong in, in Geneva not long ago. and then you had all these rumors and people that the big hype had passed. But despite that, the market is still super, super strong.

Robin Swithinbank: So it's important to look at really the facts and not always looking at, what people say Isn't that the truth? Yeah. googling around this, we've touched on this a little bit [00:13:00] already about the, the changing consumer type or the buyer type perhaps isa better expression in the auction world. And there seems to be a suggestion, and I hope this is the truth, but you can tell me otherwise if not, that over the past few years, the buyer has changed a little bit and the immediate aftermath of the pandemic, there was this sort of speculative rush to invest in valuable objects and collectible items, but signs are that the so-called.

I don't mean to be too derogatory here, the sort of the finance and tech bro, client archetype is receding a little bit to be replaced once again by a more traditional or even cerebral buyer. Is that what you are seeing?

Chabi Nouri: that's probably the difference that was between, the hype on all on some of these categories and, going back to a more normalized, market and business potentially. But it's true that we also have so many more clients coming into it because of the online, and the tech advancement and the way, we are now able to, showcase these pieces and it doesn't need all to be live and everybody's connected.

So we're able to engage much more with the. A bigger community as we were [00:14:00] before. So yes, the buyers are evolving. The buyers are changing. They wanna have,  now it has to happen and the patience is less there. They wanna make sure that, online experience is great and perfect.

Even, there is a lot of. excitement also with the competition around it. So the clients have changed, the way of engaging has changed. we see our sales room, we have 14 sales room across the world. But the reality is that our clients are very international and they really don't look at, always where it is sold.

They actually wanna Make sure that everybody, the entire broad network will see it. so again, there we have sales room. It's super important to be locally,present. But at the same time, when we do sales, we do more than, one, one sale a day. we basically engage with everyone. 

Robin Swithinbank: that, that makes me think about the geography of the auction world. to bring in the, again, the fact that you and I have been in this business a little while now, but at the turn of millennium there were, a lot of the heat was in New York and London and may, maybe not much beyond buyers.

Didn't really seem to need to look too much further. [00:15:00] That's where the action was. I was on a panel the other day with, uh, the CEO of the Opera Gallery. Isabel de labia, and she was saying that,25 years ago that was basically what all the energy was, and now the picture is almost completely international, completely global.

Chabi Nouri: Absolutely. Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: that being the case, which markets would you say have sort of emerged even over the past few years? where is the interest suddenly in sales and where are the most active buyers?

Chabi Nouri: I think that's, again,I think there is one answer because clearly the reality is that. Clients are now looking at everywhere. And I think it's interesting you mentioned that it's really also beyond the auction world. They're looking at, online players at, galleries. and that is much easier today as it was before.

You have these marketplaces or the aggregator that share all the information. So it becomes completely intertwined and connected. And that's where we have to make sure that we're really present and visible and engaging. not everywhere, but where we feel [00:16:00] it's relevant for the strategy of the company.

And then of course, clearly Paris has also gained a lot, in the last, I would say five years. so parents becomes, always a bigger and a bigger. a space, we have Milan that is of obviously also a great place to, to be. We have Middle East, but that's nothing new in a way, and that's nothing new, at least for, the luxury industry, I would say.

and again, it is true that maybe, London, New York are not the only place anymore, but doesn't mean that they're not relevant. They're super relevant, but now there is a much bigger space to, to play.

Robin Swithinbank: we may might talk about the Chinese market, I suppose, which of course so many luxury brands consider, particularly when they're forecasting what the future holds. how does the Chinese auction market look from your perspective? And is there any confidence there that we can glean.

Chabi Nouri: Bonham has an exceptionally strong. business and, relevant and credibility and expertise in Asian art. So two weeks ago, we had two exceptional [00:17:00] sales. one hold in Hong Kong, one, and of course international and one in, in New New York.

And it shows that the market is super strong. There is massive interest in it. So I think that's maybe a little bit of difference With the luxury world, um, where the situation is slightly different, but, for us it's not really the case. 

Robin Swithinbank: And we should talk specifically about Bonhams and your new-ish role. what's your vision for the house and how is that going to be worked out over the next few years?

Chabi Nouri: that's a very good question. And it's a. Exactly, and it's a big one. I'm okay, as you said. I'm just, here for, not so long. But the vision is obviously to continue to best serve our clients. And I think for Bonhams is really the bespoke approach, which is super important because at the end of the day, 

you wanna be the one that have always developed this amazing relationship with the clients. And that's the reason why also we have 14 sales room because we have experts everywhere across the world to [00:18:00] get these,vendors, buyers, people looking, the collectors. And that's really very strong.

So we wanna continue doing that. I really like the fact that we are. Probably the auction house that engages with the array of artists across time and the widest array of artistry and craftsmanship and handwork. I really love that. I really think that this is a very specific positioning of balance that we need to continue and probably to express even more so because that's really strong.

It shows also the credibility and the expertise of our teams. And at the end it's a people business. It's a people relation and expertise, credibility business after all. where we share emotions. And I love the fact that basically we're probably the one preserving these, World heritage and everything that we do in the luxury industry where we create these crafts, it's super important that there are these experts that continue to elevate these objects, [00:19:00] to continuously share the value

Robin Swithinbank: the driving force that was there at the beginning needs to continue across generation. I think that otherwise, we wouldn't have people coming, into, carpentry because you wouldn't value anymore this work. And that's a big mission Yeah, there's this sort of story of conservation and preservation and transmission of skills and craft. I can see why that would be a motivation for Bonhams, and for people who are particularly passionate about some of these objects and these collectibles. But,I what would love to establish. Is, how much of a driver are these notions of preservation and transmission to a luxury buyer's purchasing, uh, decisions today? Whether they're spending, millions on a one-off master in a way that the answer seems quite simple there, but, when you're spending thousands on a watch or a piece of jewelry or something, is the idea of preserving that, that object and the craft behind it's important, or is it still more about providence and investment and so on?

Chabi Nouri: Yeah, it's honestly a mix of everything here. It really depends the people and the clients. But it's clear that, there is an investment aspect. There is [00:20:00] a preservation aspect. There is,just, I love the piece there is the sustainability aspect. All this circular economy that is quite big.

and that is something that drives at least a certain type of generation and profile. So it's difficult to say that there is one purchasing pattern. Probably a couple of years ago it was really clearly investment investments, but overall as an industry that is, wildlife long, I would say.

And for Bonhams 230 years, it's clear that it has had different moments where people were buying for different reason. It's clear that today it's a big buyer's market. there is, buyers are looking for deals. They're looking to get the good thing because the un uncertainty makes that, Probably you have better deals and good deals, and we see that. 

 So difficult to tell you right now in this very unstable market. What drives all this? Still continuous engagement and so on. It's a good sign. It's very good to be, in this situation. at the same time, we still see that overall it's a more challenging market, so [00:21:00] the strategies are very different.

so that's also why probably I love this industry because it's very complex and complicated to really. Grasp what are the key driver. It's not okay. It's not just because it's a novelty or just because there is a specific, artist behind or watchmaker or a specific campaign.

It's really for so many reasons. And, and you probably saw, but there are a lot of studies that show, The fact that these alternative investment, if we may say so as investment class, for the high net worth individual in the portfolio, probably a decade or five years ago, it was like five, 10%, and now it's going between 15 to 20%.

So it is increasing it probably, at one point will cap, but overall it's still a very interesting market.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. that's actually quite a significant shift, isn't it? And

Chabi Nouri: I think one, one of the interesting things for me a, about the auction world is always provenance and storytelling. I mentioned that Braun F1 gp,

Yes.

Robin Swithinbank: car from 2009, which was a story that appealed to me because I [00:22:00] followed that story at the time, so closely. and I noted the other day that bottom sold Rory Gallagher's Fender Stratocaster for just under 900,000 pounds. Gallagher, if you don't know, is the, for our audience was the Irish musician often described as the best rock guitarist people have never heard of, but surely I, to my mind, that must remain the ultimate amplifier of the value of an object, the desirability, the object, course the amount of, investment people are prepared to put into something like that.

And we'll do so forever more.

Chabi Nouri: Absolutely. But we see on these typical cases, it's the passion, the emotion, the interest. If you go to an auction room where when it's, very happening, you can see that people are actually bidding because There is a passion behind and the emotion, and there is a story about the object.

It's not only about investment, otherwise. the whole dynamic would be quite different in the way,the way people engage. So I think at the end of the day, there is still a lot of, the enthusiasm behind, and that's why we call, you know, the enthusiast. Collectors and collecting is something that even today, we all see it younger and [00:23:00] younger

the generation are collecting everything and always, and they love it and they're engaged with that. So it's quite fascinating. Also, there is an interest into the objects, which, I'm not sure, the previous generation we had that, this deep interest in all these collectibles. so we had some specific, you know.

Or areas, but today it's across so many categories that.

Robin Swithinbank: generation thing is really interesting because it slightly flies in the face of my own personal theory that nostalgia is the lifeblood of the luxury industry. Because if the younger generation are buying objects, which were made many moons before they were even conceived. Perhaps that's not the case unless it's an assumed nostalgia unless people are hankering after a past that they never knew, but think sounds marvelous and the rose tindy glasses come on and you think, yes, of course I want to buy an Andy Warhol because

Chabi Nouri: Nice.

Robin Swithinbank: though I wasn't born until 2001,

Chabi Nouri: Hmm. hanker after the creative liberal tendencies of the 1960s.

Robin Swithinbank: And

Chabi Nouri: Absolutely.

Robin Swithinbank: imagine being part of that. Maybe that's it.

Chabi Nouri: That's absolutely it. So on top of, the [00:24:00] investment side, the sustainability side, the circularity side, the reality is that, it's a love for the project and object that have stories. and as you said, when you grow up, in a certain environment, then 20 years later you have this sense of nostalgia.

And I personally believe in it because I'm also like this. so that's why, I'm super, excited about specific time and specific, categories because it's part of my upbringing, it's part of my cultural development and personal development. So at the end of the day, that's probably what makes me a, a collector on certain things.

Robin Swithinbank: Yes. I think it's built into the human psyche really. I think we

Chabi Nouri: Yeah. 

Robin Swithinbank: as we draw this conversation to close, we must look at the outlook and try and look forward. having just talked about nostalgia,

Chabi Nouri: Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: there are a few companies or categories in luxury that are forecasting fabulous results this year as these macroeconomic factors.

Chabi Nouri: Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: the primary market as we've discussed,

Chabi Nouri: would you say those same factors are a blessing or a curse for the auction sector, which clearly responds and behaves in a slightly different way?

Um, should the market be very,[00:25:00] fabulous in 2025? Uh, I think that it's gonna be the case the same for the auction world too, because it's not the primary or the secondary. It's actually. one and the other. It's very complimentary. It's very different. The reason why you purchase an object and at the end of the day if the market is fabulous in 25, as I hope you, you're right, or some people are absolutely right.

I. it's gonna elevate, probably a lot of different industries and it's clear that at the end of the day, what we need is the right consumer sentiment. And in looking at the future as a bright future, that really helps, our kind of industries.

Robin Swithinbank: you sound more optimistic for the future than I am, perhaps. 

I think that's the point is that very few companies are forecasting that, but it sounds as if, with buyers more interested in expanding their portfolios, that the auction sector could actually do quite well in this season.

Chabi Nouri: but you know, the auction we don't produce what we sell. So it's a matter of having the items, the objects. So if you feel Very [00:26:00] positive, then you're more inclined to then decide to sell an object. So that's where, the consumer sentiment is super important in our industry.

and do I see that happening in 25? Probably not. such a big turnaround and that everybody sees, a super short term, uh. I'm not so sure, but it's difficult to say I think it's quite an unpredictable time.

Robin Swithinbank: it's very unpredictable. I suppose the difference in the auction market is that pricing is determined by consumer sentiment, and the consumer will pay what they're prepared to pay. Whereas in the primary market, of course, the brand, the maker has to sort of guess at consumer sentiment and name a price and hope that consumer buys it at that

Chabi Nouri: Exactly.

Robin Swithinbank: which is

Chabi Nouri: And also. The availability of the object is also like the price based on consumer sentiment.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Yeah. Chabi, we must let the hammer fall on our conversation. Sorry. Another

Chabi Nouri: Yes.

Robin Swithinbank: pun. I do specialize in those, I'm afraid. But it's been

Chabi Nouri: Great.

Robin Swithinbank: to you. good luck with your vision for bons, and thank you so much for joining us on The Luxury Society Podcast.

Chabi Nouri: Thank you very [00:27:00] much, Robin, for having me. It was a great pleasure to talk to you.

Robin Swithinbank: And now I'm delighted to welcome back onto the pod Pablo Marron. Pablo is digital Luxury Group's managing partner China, working outta Shanghai, where he and his team run consulting social media, e-commerce, CRM, and creative projects for a host of major luxury and premium brands. He joins me now to discuss how Chinese, ev, or electric vehicle brands are disrupting the market, challenging the established automotive elite with high-end cars are what many of you to be accessible prices.

Pablo, welcome back. Good to have you here.

Pablo: Hey Robin. Good to you again. Thanks for having me.

Robin Swithinbank: Look, let's, um, start with a quick market overview, which may not be that well known to a lot of our listeners when we're talking about the Chinese EV brands. Who are the market leaders and which names do we need to know about?

Pablo: I think that for a, starts the one name that everybody should know about is BYT, right? BYD has been an historical car [00:28:00] maker in the market,and one of the very first to develop EV as well. they by far, in terms of volumes, the biggest ones, they just to cover Tesla, recently.

we'll talk probably more about that later on, but they're also. One of the very few that are actually making a profit, in the EV landscape in China right now. As a lot of those companies, despite their growing popularity are still at the startup stages, so BYD is the biggest name now when it comes to.

The topic of our podcast and the focus on, on, on luxury,they don't really belong to that space. what makes the number of BYD is that this is the cars driven by, by taxi drivers, by, like they've already managed the globally expansion by shipping a lot of quote unquote cheap cars.

to, to other countries around. and I think that there are several names, in the market that are worth looking at, much more carefully, especially if that's what we're gonna do today to name a few. I think NIO is the other big [00:29:00] historical one. The. they made a name, for themself like a few years ago already when they IPO'ed.

and they've been a little bit like the ones I would say that paved the way, for those new EV startups in China, those new EV startups in China. NIO is very famous for their, for their biggest SUV cars that are very, family friendly, I would say. and for numerous innovations that they developed, in the field of services.

other important names? I would say that, that are a little bit in the similar positioning as NIO would be Lee or. again, very big SUV, even more high-end, I would say. They're directly trying to get market shares from porch, cayenne, and so on. some other names that are well known. we can mention Ong Zeekr that are very well known for their design approach, and that unlike the two others where their flagship cars, SUV have also developed a full range of sedans and so on.

and the last one that, that could not be missed and they belong to a very [00:30:00] different category, is Xiaomi, Shmi that has been well known in China for the past 12 years, at least started as a phone manufacturer, but is way more than that. Xiaomi pretty much today produce all type of electronic, products and home appliance you could think of.

and more recently, they made a big splash in the automotive industry, with their most recent car. that's not only was, not only was acclaimed from a design and innovation point of view, but that also from a performance point of view. broke the record of speed for 4 door sedan, at the Nobu Ring.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. This is an incredible story. I, in researching this podcast, I've come across it pretty much for the first time. I understand that Xiaomi cars, it's only 18 months since the company announced that it was gonna make cars

Pablo: Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: first model. And according to one article I read, it's now pumping out a new car every 76 seconds. Absolutely astonishing. it very much conforms to this idea that China can throw up a hospital in five [00:31:00] minutes or indeed launch a global engineering brand in the time that it takes most European countries to get permission to resurface a road. 

 and then where are these cars actually being bought?

Are they being bought in China? Are they being bought around the rest of the world? What's the split?

Pablo: I think, as often when it comes to innovation in the market,they've developed their products with a major focus on the domestic consumption. and all those brands started with a very strong footprint locally. Now again, BYD is one step ahead in terms of developing exports and being on their way to become a global brand.

They already are, BYD typically is not necessarily exporting in what for we as Westerners would consider, to be a strategic market,for the car industry. But again, BYD is not a luxury brand, so you can see BYD exporting a lot of cars in Southeast Asia, in Eastern Asia, in Africa even, and so on.

we were recently speaking with,with actually a Chinese ecar maker that I'm not gonna name, but it was [00:32:00] very interesting to see, what were the markets that they were targeting as a priority. And obviously they're looking at Europe and the US as like the holy grail of where they want to make it ultimately, but they're looking at much more pragmatic and I would say somehow tactical and opportunistic destinations.

Again, Thailand, Malaysia, Southeast Asia, north of Africa, middle East, those type of destinations. But for the other brands, most of them are still very domestic. they're very domestic, because I think that for some of them, first off, is just an illustration of the relatively young stage of their development for some others, that there might be issues in truly exporting.

Not just the cars, but the whole experience that goes with it. if you look at a car like NIO, NIO has developed beyond the product an entire lifestyle. they have lounges, they have concierge services. So when you buy a NIO car, you get an app, and from that app you can [00:33:00] request a battery change that will be done at any time within 15 minutes.

if you go for a dinner and happen to drink too much, you can use the NIO app to request a driver that will show up at your address and drive you back home. All those things are part of what. Allow them to develop such a strong perception and to be so differentiated. It's, by the way, also what's probably hurting their profit margin the most right now.

but those are real question marks in my point of view also, that will have to be solved. Not for all of them, but so for some of those car brands on to what extent they can deliver on the same level outside of China.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I, well, let's stick domestically, uh, for a moment then. I mean,you mentioned perception that a moment ago. What's the perception of these brands in China? Are Chinese customers saying, yep, I'm gonna buy a NIO instead of buying a Mercedes or A BMW or a Porsche?

Pablo: Yeah, I think that it's one of the field where Chinese MA manufacturing has become cool. it's, It's crazy in the way that if [00:34:00] you look at a category where you believe that the country of origin would've a value, I think automotive would be one of them. Maybe not as much as watches,but not far behind.

and I think that the consumer perception has evolved. we talked about it, on, on, on the previous episode, right? I think that two things made it happen. First off is that again, in, in the post covid context, generally speaking, consumers became more rational and Chinese ev arrived with a value proposition that was simply offering cars that once you step inside offers a similar, to not say potentially better experience at not just half of the cost, sometimes a third of the cost.

And it has significantly redistributed the cart. like there, there was a time where if you were like,an affluent family, you wouldn't consider buying your car for less than a million rv, like 150,000 US dollar in [00:35:00] China would be perceived as a cheap car. Today you have discussions with those same families.

That are telling you that Le Young is pretty expensive because it's 600,000 and that NIO is only 400,000, which is literally a, so value for money was clearly one. there was the element of national pride. We talked about it also, as a result of those past three years, consumers have gained in confidence when it comes to their taste, when it comes to their preference, but also when it comes to their identity.

And now it's cool. It's perceived as cool in China to drive a local car. so there is an element of national pride, an element of differentiation. we all know how the market is, hungry for constant novelty. and I think that's the key thing.

Robin Swithinbank: We've talked on this podcast previously about the power of value. Value to or price to value ratio is becoming increasingly important to price sensitive luxury consumers. And not for the first time and not for the last time. I wonder if the [00:36:00] Chinese consumer isn't going to to take the way that the world considers its luxury purchases. Those are two significant advantages that those, Chinese EV brands have over their international competition, but, I suspect there are others as well.

Pablo: Yeah, they are very important topics, right? From a pure arts technology point of view. The fact that they managed to completely verticalize,the whole production and the supply chain, the fact that they produce themselves their own batteries, the biotech they found.

Innovation to address the problems related to chargings and so on. but at the same time, aside from those very practical elements, when it comes to the value and when, I think that there is a lot of parallels that can be made with the luxury industry and even some inspiration that could be taken by Western brands, is how much of a lifestyle they've managed to develop associated to that.

First off, a lot of those cars have a very design centric approach. I remember when Chinese ev cars started to pop [00:37:00] out, you put spot cars in the streets just based on the color. You would know it was a Chinese ev. they came up with shades and with tones that were not seen before.

except from tuning and customization, efficien items. So design centric approach. you step into a. Interior, it feels like a luxury lounge. they develop very strong, experiences, not only with the retail, for example, the NIO clubhouse, but as I mentioned before, all those services that are being developed.

You,see families going for a picnic in a park. they're gonna sit on the NIO chairs that came with the car, they're gonna have the NIO blanket. You can feel that the entire thing has been developed around that and they've done it. By focusing, I think in the case of NIO and Li Xiang specificallyON, as we know, one of the strongest value there is in China, which is the family and I think it contrasted a lot with how Western brands communications [00:38:00] was articulated around dv.

Robin Swithinbank: That's very interesting, which is much more about the individual's appreciation of the product. It's much more, as we were discussing with Porsche's, director of brand and partnerships. it's a sort of a hedonistic pleasure, which,is not a negative. I don't think I'd be wrong.

Uh, he didn't use the word hedonistic in a negative sense. But it is, uh, significantly different to the, perception of the brand that you are describing with these, Chinese EV companies. 

Pablo: So let's think a little bit about how these brands are communicating their stories and products. Which platforms are they using and where are they finding they're gaining most traction?

without surprise, social media and the influencer ecosystem is playing a huge role and they've embraced it with the agility that you would expect from local brand. before talking about online though, there is also something in terms of visibility they've developed from an offline point of view that has been really interesting is in terms of what were their strategy.

Be visible towards consumers [00:39:00] and to develop their showrooms. Historically, you're looking at like big brands, opening massive showrooms, working with dealerships and so on. Chinese EV cars stepped into shopping malls. And it was crazy to witness in the way that it started from lower tier cities where those spots were easier to get because no matter how much of on the rise they are, it's not tomorrow that they're gonna get a ground floor location in between Louis Vuitton and Pada, but in second and third tier cities.

And now in Shanghai, in lower tier malls, you start already to see car showrooms, inside shopping malls on the ground floor. and in my point of view, it goes way beyond than retail because it gives an exposure to the product that you can go sit into Aian car while you're on your way to the supermarket.

Then when it comes to online, as I said, two things, [00:40:00] so they developed very. Aggressive wouldn't be the right word, but They have a very approachable brand perception. They're on social media. They're developing podcasts, they're developing video logs to, to name a few. Ian has created the Lee Auto AI talk.

Those are long videos, 30 to 15 minutes, 30 to 15 minutes format in conversation. With their auto AI team talking about AI innovation. They don't talk about their cars, they're talking about AI innovation. NIO has a podcast called Tech Talk where it's conversation with in-house experts from various departments talking about tech innovations and their cars and stuff like that.

And so again, I think that this is really much part of that cool factor that they're perceived as. As the one that raised the flag and the trailblazer of innovation. The other important thing is that most of those [00:41:00] brands have a founder centric communication strategy. Ong, actually, Ong is the name of the CEO Ong.

The name of the brand is. it was previously made a fortune by creating an internet browser, called uc browser that some people still use today. Sharmi is the iconic CEO. late June on the cover of Wired Magazine 12 years ago. They were already talking about Shami potentially taking over the world one day.

And what I still remember from that interview that was amazing is that he was saying, everybody thinks we're a mobile phone manufacturer. We're not. The mobile phone is just a way to penetrate asphalt. and so all those, they have all very charismatic CEOs. They all have guys that have a very long track record of entrepreneurship and success, and they're at the forefront of what they do.

They do their big keynote Apple style. we work with Porsche where we have the chance to surf Porsche in China. and it was very interesting during the latest [00:42:00] Shami keynote to have Leinjune showcasing on the big screen behind him some of the tweets we posted for Porsche and Taunting Porsche, but in a very friendly and positive way in terms of see you guys on the racetrack

Well, at least that's the way it sound. And so they're very agile. obviously they are local brands. not only they have the benefit of being local, but they have that agility and I think that they're not, in some cases held back by traditional ways of communication, which truly allow them to stand up.

Robin Swithinbank: It strikes me at the moment that these brands are certainly the luxury end of the spectrum if we're taking BYD outta the equation For now, it strikes me that they are doing very well inside China. one or two of them, Shomi being the most obvious example, clearly have a route to a global market. are you expecting to see these brands in the next, oh, I don't know, 12 months, 24 months? Everything can happen very quickly in China to start really aggressively targeting the market outside China. And if they do that, what sort of reception do you think they'll receive

Pablo: [00:43:00] Mm,

Robin Swithinbank: consumer appetite for these brands?

Pablo: there are multiple parameters, to take into account. I think there's obviously gonna be the impact on the tariff. they have, again, the chance of having completely verticalized their production, so at least they're not depending as much as other brands. On imports and things like that.

So the, they are going to get impacted by the tariff, but somehow I feel that they control a little bit the environment better as they don't have third parties dependencies from all around the world. after that, there's gonna be how they are going to be welcomed globally. and I think that this is a big question about China's soft power.

how is currently China perceived by the rest of the world? Because again, you can talk about very factual elements, which is the quality of their cars and their price and so on. We also know that there is a China sentiment around the world that is not at its best,and that could play a role way beyond any type of rational consideration.

[00:44:00] The other element is that the same reason why I was claiming the way they succeeded in the market, in the way that they developed a communication strategy and a narrative that was exactly meeting the market needs. I don't know if that's gonna meet the other market needs. I don't know if in a city like Paris driving a massive NIO SUV.

Is gonna be the right thing to do. we look at a lot of western car manufacturers that have developed ev having very much the concept of urban cars in mind, more compact, SUV,and that type of thing. so I think that there is definitely a value proposition that is different. and there will, there is a question that will only be answered by the consumers on whether it tracks.

the last element that I think is super important is also linked simply to the health of those businesses. It's important to keep in mind that most of those car brands are still startups besides BYD and Lee. None of them are turning a profit right now.

NIO [00:45:00] and XPeng are hoping to get there. There is also a question on whether in the current climate that we all know, is it gonna be possible to sustain those type of investment and that aggressive startup strategy? I think that there is gonna be a natural selection that's gonna happen among those brands.

Some of them are gonna survive, some of them not. Maybe some of them are gonna be acquired by western car manufacturers. That, in my point of view, should be looking at them very hard right now.

Robin Swithinbank: That's fascinating. I think one of the biggest shifts that we're identifying here is that we are now way beyond China as a manufacturer of quality parts. We're perhaps even getting beyond China as a manufacturer of quality. Products. we seem to be getting to a point where China is able to build brands, what you've described to me.

I can already start to feel what those brands mean and how they want to talk to me and why I might want to invest in them.

Pablo: Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: I'm gonna lo you a crystal ball now as my sort of my last question on this. you've got the crystal ball in your hand now. based on that as a summary of the shift, where do you see this [00:46:00] story going in the next five to 10 years?

Should we expect to see Chinese EVs. Let's not say taking over the world, but on, on the streets and the sidewalks of, of countries, east to west.

Pablo: I think so. I might be biased, obviously. I think so. and I think that's. Your question includes all the elements of answers We thought They didn't know how to do quality components. They proved us wrong. We know they didn't know how to do quality products. They proved us wrong. We know they didn't know how to create brand and to do branding.

They proved us wrong locally. Now there is the big question on whether they're gonna be able to do it globally and at the end of the day, in my point of view. This is a new exercise for Chinese companies in general. We have very little companies initiated from China that managed to go global and because it's a different skillset that they still need to learn.

I believe that obviously the talent pool is here. We don't need to talk about the fact that there is more than enough [00:47:00] super talented Chinese professionals that are educated abroad and so on. But I feel that five to 10 years is what is going to be needed to have those Ivy Leagues graduates coming back, making their ways into the corporate culture and so on, and getting to a stage where we start to have local CEOs and local CMOs that truly think global.

Because I think that this is literally the only thing that is missing right now. and when it comes to. filling that gap, it doesn't take your generation, it takes another five to 10 years.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, the pace of change, as we know is remarkable. IBYD, although we've slightly excluded it from our conversation, given its price point and its brand positioning, already reported to be out selling Tesla by more than two to one by volume and around 10% by value. With those values growing all the time, obviously Tesla's going backwards at the moment, which, contributes to that. the company's market cap is still only around 15% of Tesla's, which might make it a very good investment, of course, but,clearly, [00:48:00] if. If the model that BYD has implemented is one that's picked up by some of the luxury, manufacturers in China, then success could be just around the corner.

I think it's gonna be very interesting to watch. look, Pablo, genuinely fascinating talking with you. for me, a line in the sand sort of moment as well, really. and I wonder if that will be the case for many Luxury Society podcast listeners too. I suspect it will. So it remains me to say thank you for coming on, and please do come again soon.

Pablo: Thank you very much, VIN. See you soon. Thank you.

Robin Swithinbank: And now I'm pleased to welcome back onto the pod for our regular on the download slot Benedicte Soteras, d G's partner, and international client director Benet.

Welcome back what's on the download menu this episode.

Benedicte: Hi Robin. In this episode, we are going to focus on both the C two C and B2C luxury resale markets that have clearly. Been reshaping the industry this past few years.

Okay,C two C and B2C. Quick explainer. What are they?

So B2C is business to consumer while C two C is consumer to consumer. So [00:49:00] basically a marketplace where individuals can buy and sell pre-owned products from one another.

Robin Swithinbank: Cool. So we're talking about platforms such as SD, air Collective, the RealReal, that kind of thing.

Benedicte: Yeah, exactly. Of like Chrono 24. if you look at something more specialized and then we have the regular B2C ones like Farfetch, for instance. And what's striking about those channels is how they went from a trend lecturer. Brands once ignored or even actively discouraged to something they're now fully embracing.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, and how does the data make that point?

Benedicte: Well at DLG, we've been tracking the growing popularity of dozens of these platforms through two key dimension. The first one is through social media metrics where they've shown remarkable growth of their audience for the past few years. I. Take Farfetched for instance. They have expanded from just 1 million followers back in 2018 to over 5.6 million in 2025.

And same thing for Vestiaire Collective. They had about 200 K followers in [00:50:00] 2018, and now they're just short of reaching 2 million. And for specialist players like Watch Finder, we've observed a tenfold multiplication of their following. They are reaching about 300,000 followers today. And second, we focus on search demand metrics that reveal similarly compelling trends.

The luxury pre-owned market has experienced consistent expansion, since, 2021. We've basically seen year over year. An increase of 18%, between 2021 and 2022, 9% in 2023, and then a remarkable 21% when comparing 2024 and 2023 data, which means that at the end of 2024, we had about 19.6 million searches globally for this market.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, on the up fast, in which case, lots of numbers in there, but,how does that compare, would be the next question to the primary market?

Benedicte: actually it's significantly outpaces the primary market growth, which is usually at only two and 3% annually. And what's particularly revealing is the category [00:51:00] divergence. When you look at, for instance, watches and jewelry, they have shown substantially stronger growth compared to fashion brands with respectively 26% growth versus 11.5% growth of fashion year over year.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, that is interesting. and of course we've seen a contraction in the primary watch market and the data may well help explain that. but even so, are there standup performers within these categories that, we're talking about here?

Benedicte: in terms of sheer volume, if we look at the watchmaking segment, Rolex is still the undisputed leader with 8.6 million, like pre-owned searches last year, which was up by 25% year over year. So they're the established giant in the pre-owned market, but then you also have what we like to call internally rising stars.

that tells a very interesting story. You have Omega, that is seeing a remarkable momentum probably since the Olympics. they're attracting approximately 28% year over a year like growth for their pre-owned models, which is about 2.2 million searches total in 2024. [00:52:00] And then you have the more kinda exclusive brands like Patek Philippe.

They still show quite a lot of growth, like above 30% year over year. But the overall volume is much lower as you would expect, around like 230 K searches in 2024. And in fashion Hermes is a clear, standout performer. Their pre-owned search is last year have grown 60%, which is far outpacing other luxury fashion houses.

They've basically created, their own category and actually you see that their products have become, an investment, of the like in themself.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, these numbers are interesting. It's always more important in a way, though, to try and figure out what these growth patterns actually mean and what the impact of them will be on luxury companies and on their businesses.

Benedicte: at DLG, we basically look at those numbers, not in isolation, but as a key indicator of how those specific luxury brands are growing in popularity and desirability.

[00:53:00] And something that's important also to not to point out is that those like. Pre loved items. Searches only represent like about 1% of the total volume of searches like for each of these brands. So while they're growing and importantly growing is still a minor part of the cake.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, interesting. the pre March continues nonetheless. it's been coming for some time and I suspect it will continue as most analysts predict. Thank you, Ben. great to peel back some of the layers of luxury. As always, catch you on the next episode.

Benedicte: Thank you, Robin. 

Robin Swithinbank: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now.

I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your [00:54:00] podcasts.