Making waves: Explora Journeys president Anna Nash on reimagining luxury ocean travel

In this 10th episode of the Luxury Society Podcast, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh welcome Anna Nash, President of Explora Journeys, the luxury ocean travel brand from MSC Group. Anna shares her journey from land-based luxury at Aman to leading a sea-based brand aiming to revolutionise perceptions of cruising. She discusses her leadership learnings, market insights, and the company's unique approach to redefining modern luxury travel at sea.

The conversation touches on:

• The shift from product-centric to experience-driven luxury
• Why high-net-worth individuals are rethinking cruising
• The power of storytelling and personalisation in luxury travel

Also in this episode:

Pablo Mauron returns with insights on the evolving behaviour of Chinese luxury travellers post-COVID.

Benedicte Soteras dives into cruise industry search and digital advertising data, revealing which brands are gaining momentum.

Brought to you by https://digitalluxurygroup.com/

Follow us @digitalluxurygroup & @robin_swithinbank on Instagram

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025 www.fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

Making waves: Explora Journeys president Anna Nash on reimagining luxury ocean travel

Robin Swithinbank: [00:00:00] Hello and the proverbial warm welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swithinbank. 

David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh. 

Robin Swithinbank: David and I are staging a small scale celebration as the Luxury Society Podcast moves into double figures. And in this our 10th episode, we are delighted to be joined by Anna Nash, president of Explorer Journeys, a disruptive luxury ocean travel experience company that in only four years has already begun to change perceptions of an industry once thought to offer a little more than swirly carpets, tepid food, and overcrowded decks swarmed by screaming children.

Later in the show, I'll be talking to the pods resident, China expert, Pablo Marron about the rebirth of the Chinese traveler. And then Benedicte Soteras will be back to crunch some cruise company data in on the download. But for now, David, on with the show,

David Sadigh: Let's do it. 

Anna Nash: Cruising still has a stigma attached to it. Lots of [00:01:00] different misconceptions exist around this industry and actually cruising or ocean travel, I. As we like to talk about, really brings an opportunity for exploration.

 I believe that luxury consumers today are really seeking experiences above anything else.

 there's something magical that happens when a guest leaves the shore and joins the ship.

Anna Nash: it's,up to 17 touch points that a guest will need to see. Before they will actually commit to booking. 

 I strongly believe that we're an industry that still has its best years, ahead.

Robin Swithinbank: and now I'm thrilled to welcome onto the pod. Anna Nash, president of Explorer Journeys, founded in 2021, Explorer Journeys is a luxury lifestyle ocean travel brand of the MSC group, A global shipping operation in the world's largest privately owned cruise company. Anna took up her position in September last year on the back of a stellar career in luxury travel, which [00:02:00] over two decades has seen her in roles at or express. Now Belmont, Rosewood, London, and most recently Aman, where she was Chief Commercial Officer overseeing the group's portfolio of luxury hotels, residences, and experiences. Anna was born in the uk but is now based in Geneva, where MSC and Explorer Journeys are headquartered. So Anna, welcome onto the Luxury Society Podcast. Great to see you. How are you?

Anna Nash: Thank you for having me all very, very good. The, uh, summer has definitely arrived here in Geneva, so uh, spirits are very high.

Robin Swithinbank: That's what we like to hear. Well look, first of all, a quick bit of background. You're still in travel, but you've gone from land to sea what attracted you to this job with explorer?

Anna Nash: Well, funny you should say that actually, my first roles with, orient Express, which is now Belmond, were somewhat connected to the sea, so, I particularly was focused on the trains and cruises side of the business, although they were much, much smaller operations. So in one sense, the sea has sort of been, [00:03:00] uh, with me since the very beginning.

And, and the other funny fact, if you will, was when I had my first role with, uh, orient Express. I used to go into Sea Container's, house. And I used to walk in and either side of me were, very, very large replicas of, ships. And I have exactly the same thing now as I walk through the doors of MSC here, where I see, uh, not only cruise ship.

Models, but also container models. So it sort of feels in a way that I've, I've gone full circle. So going back to your question, I definitely feel there's a, a piece of fate, uh, to play in that, and that I was meant to be here. I've always personally had a, a love of the sea. I grew up by the sea. I learned to sell from a very young age and single day, Byer Ferry.

But with explore journeys i'd, I'd been with Aman for, 10 years. I thought that I would be there forever. It [00:04:00] really was my true love, my true calling. And I, you know, it still holds a very, very dear place in my heart, but I've always been very hungry for, growth and that sort of next chapter, if you will.

And, and this opportunity came up to join Journeys as president and really steer this company through a very, very, unusual period of exponential growth. The family vision that compelled me where we're a family owned business as you mentioned earlier, the Aponte Vargo family, and they really set out to, deliver an experience that had never been seen on water before.

And this, this brand explorer Journeys was created from a white piece of paper. So I, I feel very lucky to, help them drive their vision and, uh.

Robin Swithinbank: there's a lot to unpack in that and we're gonna

Anna Nash: Sorry.

Robin Swithinbank: I'm sure in the course of our conversation. No, it's great and it's a really interesting story, but I think one of the big differences as far as I can work out is for you personally, and [00:05:00] you are now running the company, um, having previously held C-Suite roles, but this is the first time as as a president grand title. What have been the big learnings for you as a leader during these first nine months at the helm?

Anna Nash: Well, I mean, I've always. Only ever worked for family owned businesses throughout my career, which is quite an unusual position to be in. I suppose my biggest learnings were coming into such a large company, although Explorer Journeys is a brand within itself. We are part of MSC, which is a, a much larger, um, well-established business.

And so there was a lot to learn, about sort of how they work, how we can adapt that as we drive a very, very different style of, of ocean travel. It was just, I think also onboarding the sheer volume of information people's faces, people's names, teams, names, teams face. You know, there's all of that that you have to sort of onboard.

But then [00:06:00] there's of course the maritime side, of the business. But I suppose the biggest learning for me was. When I was leaving Aman, I thought, ah, this is gonna be a really easy transition. I'm leaving 35 hotels, of which, you know, I was in charge of, from a, commercial perspective to two ships currently sailing.

 We've got four more, in construction. So we'll have a full fleet of six by 2028.

Absolutely not because the volumes that we need to drive, you know, we need to see the, bookings much, much further in advance. And it's a much more competitive environment. the cruising industry so lots of learnings, but I think it's really important as a leader with any new role that you take a moment to sort of breathe and just listen.

Take it all on board. Think before you speak, think before you act, and just really try and familiarize yourself with, the business that we operate in, but also the cruise sector [00:07:00] that we operate in as well. So, lots of listening, lots of thinking. And now, we're definitely this year in a full year of housekeeping as we have no ship launching this year.

David Sadigh: Anna, you have a, a wealth of experience working with, uh, high net worth individual and ultra high net worth individual. How do you think the luxury cruise business is currently perceived by luxury consumers? And how does that sit with your vision for Explorer?

Anna Nash: Gosh, I have many thoughts on that. Cruising still has a stigma attached to it. There's no doubt in that that, you know, cruising is still seen by some that it's not for me. I. I'm not yet in that age demographic. It's going to be too hurried experience. The food isn't going to be, up to my standards.

Lots of different misconceptions exist around this industry and actually cruising or ocean travel, I. As we like to talk about, really brings an opportunity for exploration. It's a way of [00:08:00] travel that gives you time back because everything is there for you. Everything is arranged for you. It's a fully inclusive experience, which again, fully inclusive doesn't always bring about, you know, that feeling that it's gonna be an elevated or luxurious experience.

So, we as a brand have a, a lot. To change that perception. And I really believe that we have an opportunity to trailblaze, you know, we are a new brand. We really see ourselves as a floating hotel whose and that is the, the simplest way of, of really describing what we are doing. And we chose to call ourselves Explorer Journeys because that talks about that sense of adventure, that sense of exploration.

So there's still a lot to do with this segment, but I also believe that with Four Seasons. Ritz Carlton and Aman taking to the seas that they will help, make cruising cool again. They will help us all, with marketing this incredible way of, of travel. And for us, you know, we're [00:09:00] part of a family owned business that, have been in, um, the seafaring industries for over 300 years.

They're masters of the sea. We know what we are doing and I really feel that that puts us at an advantage.

David Sadigh: You already answered my follow up question about like, are the key players willing to really embrace and invest significantly into the luxury cruise segment? Do you feel that, uh, let's say the evolution of the luxury industry from more like product centric to more experience centric is like a big part of how the market is going to move forward?

Anna Nash: Absolutely. And I believe that consumers, luxury consumers today are really seeking experiences above anything else. And ocean travel really ticks all of those boxes. And for the other brands, those land-based hospitality brands taken to the waters will, as I. Make cruising relevant, make it part of, the semantics of everyday life that make it marketable to maybe a consumer that didn't think that it was for them.[00:10:00] 

And I believe that's really where the opportunity is. And, we're very fortunate that as a brand, we have the support of the wider MSC group. we have a, a maritime support center in the uk. We have, shared services with our, our sister brands really has enabled. Explore journeys to focus on guest experience and innovation and the food and beverage piece so that the distractions are not elsewhere.

And I think that's where we have the advantage. That's really where, you know, we can see the difference in sort of what we're doing as a brand.

Robin Swithinbank: It's an enormous brief, isn't it? I mean, de-stigmatizing, perceptions around category of luxury travel is not something that's gonna happen overnight. One would imagine, this transformation, this redefinition that you are describing, have you given yourself some sort of timeline? I don't wanna say deadline, it sounds too strict, but is there a timeline behind it?

And indeed, how will you measure the progress of, of this vision that you've outlined?

Anna Nash: Well, I dunno if you'd be surprised to learn that about 25% of our guests on board [00:11:00] are actually new to cruise. So we are seeing, that vision really come to life. It will continue to take time, but actually I also believe that the more guests that we're starting to see on board. The more, spreading that word of mouth and, I try and spend as much as I can, onboard talking to our guests.

Why did you book, how did you book? What influenced you? Because to me, that really is, you know, getting the information from the horse's mouth. And when you speak to these guests that hadn't cruised before, they all say the same thing. I, why I didn't do this before? So, you know. Untapped market out there. I alluded earlier to the fact that this year is very much a housekeeping year for us here, in hq.

And, and by that I mean that it's the one year that we actually don't have a ship launch. So next year, 2026, we welcome Explorer 3 20 27. We welcome two ships and 28, uh, another ship. So this really is a [00:12:00] year where we are really looking at. The entire end-to-end guest journey, the end-to-end journey for our travel partners, which are a, a huge part of our success and have been with us throughout our journey.

And, you know, looking at the way we market, looking at, how easy is our website to navigate and book the use of images. You know, we've just, done a very, very long and very successful photo shoot on board trying to sort of be very different, uh, perhaps to what is expected in cruising and something that you tend to see more in line with, you know, land-based hotels.

So we are really softening our approach and thinking about how we want to talk to our customers, but ultimately make it. Very easy to book, and I think that complication piece is something that we can address quite easily, and the whole marketing piece and the way we talk to our customers will definitely help, bring new customers to us.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. So four new ships. So are they sort of cut and paste jobs, essentially? Will, will you have six very [00:13:00] similar boats in in your, what do we say in your fleet? Uh, or will, they each offer something quite different?

Anna Nash: within the, the fleet of six ships, ultimately they'll be very similar. We will make tweaks along the way. You know, we were a brand that was built on the art of listening. The brand was launched having done. In depth surveys with 20,000 potential customers. So we set out, uh, knowing what we wanted to offer.

We are experienced where, masters of the Sea, so we know what we needed to do in terms of ship building. Our hardware is the best on the waters. But of course we send. Hugely in depth, post, travel surveys to our customers who all seem to really enjoy filling in the details, giving us good feedback, giving us feedback where we can improve.

And we really take that on board as a brand. And so we listen and we are able to adapt, but ultimately each of the ships will be very similar in their experience. We don't want one to differentiate the other as we start to, have more ships [00:14:00] in the water. I think what will differentiate the most will be their deployment.

IE where are they based and what are the itineraries that we will start to offer. So the more ships we have, the more areas of the world that we can cover. And you'll also start to see, um, some of the later ships are, um, LNG, fuel, then they've got slightly different capabilities, on that side of things as well.

David Sadigh: You mentioned the survey What were the biggest surprises?

Anna Nash: I think it was really around the stigma. I think there were, a mixture of customers that had sailed before and those that had never sailed before. And I think it was really just trying to understand what was important to them. Food we learned was really a non-negotiable and being seen as, a person, not a number.

And again, it was about trying to really reach those off the beaten track destinations that's the joy of being on the water, is that we can take you to places that you may not ordinarily go to, or we can connect [00:15:00] places that are not easily connectable via airport to airport.

 with ease without having to pack and unpack. So it. Accessibility destinations, but really elevating that very personalized experience on board.

Robin Swithinbank: That makes me wonder whether your focus will be on recruiting new clients, and you said 25% have never, never cruised before. does the focus become to try and reach that untapped market or actually as part of your focus in winning market share from your competitors?

Anna Nash: Bit of both. I think that's the, the way forward. We are definitely seeing, a lot of loyalty from customers that had cruised before, uh, and really have enjoyed the very personal service. And the food and beverage is, is also a real standout, but, also the same for new cruises.

I think they felt that, you know, the wellness side for us was something that drew them to, uh, explore journeys. We have an incredible, full service spa. We have a partnership with Techno Gym, so we've got a wonderful gym. [00:16:00] Both inside and outside on one of the decks. But I think the interesting thing that I've also learned that you don't tend to see in land-based hospitality is before people have left the ship, they're talking to one of our, our team members on board who are called Future Journey ambassadors, and they're booking their next journey with us before they've even finished, their current journey.

And you can see this connection. You can see that they really feel very comfortable and, they want to have something to look forward to again, before they've even finished the current experience.

David Sadigh: Can you just describe the typical client?

Anna Nash: Average age, is mid fifties and, you know, key markets for us would typically be, north America. UK mainland Europe and Australia, but it's 

 mid fifties is the average age, but we do see multi-generational, groups on board, families wanting to spend time together. And I think the ship gives that flexibility that you can meet in the morning for breakfast. You can go off and [00:17:00] do your own thing in the day, and then perhaps you can come together in the evening for a sun downer and then, an ease of dinner together.

So a wide variety.

Robin Swithinbank: It sounds glorious. Uh, one of the things that I, I've noticed in my reading around this is that you've offered, cruisers who are loyal to other cruise companies, a status match, so parallel level of status, for a new client, so they don't have to start from scratch. I can see you smiling very broadly at this point.

I wonder how, how has that been received in the industry and how effective has it been as a recruitment tool?

Anna Nash: Really, Really effective. And actually, as I said, we're a brand that was built on the art of listening. And if I look back at the post cruise surveys, all of our customers were asking us, when are you launching a loyalty program? So for those that are used to traveling in this. Sector, this is definitely something that we knew we needed to do, was expected of us, from our guests.

And, yes, we did the status match, which was important to them, but we've also made sure that any cruises that were done pre-launch of the loyalty [00:18:00] program, we were adding those retroactively in as well. So it's a great way. To foster loyalty, but we really wanted to make sure that our program felt very personal.

David Sadigh: It's a very clever way of doing it, and especially in a, let's say, public way, in the watchmaking industry. We know that if you are a Patek or a Rolex owner, you might have more chances of, uh, securing some allocation for other watch brands. I. But, uh, I don't think that the rule is like, uh, publicly, expressed.

So, uh, yeah. Clever.

Anna Nash: Yeah. I suppose it's our way of saying come and try us. You know, you don't always need to be chasing those lty points with another brand. You know, we can offer that if you know, you so choose to, to do the status match, but we really want you to come and try. And, and that's what it's all about, being open to meeting customer expectations, where they want to be met.

Robin Swithinbank: Let's, um, let's head back on land briefly because uh, you have some interesting partnerships, some interesting sponsorships, which will have come to the [00:19:00] attention of those who follow Formula One, for example. So I 

Anna Nash: Yeah. 

Robin Swithinbank: Journeys and MSC Hoardings are. Around the racetracks this season. I think is a deal if I've got this right that we'll run through to the end of the 2030 season, or

Anna Nash: Yes.

Robin Swithinbank: Let's assume that's a significant investment.

Why invest in F1 and what rewards is it reaping?

Anna Nash: Well, I mean, we were very, very fortunate that this year we were the ownership of our kind docked in port for, Monaco F1 Grand Prix. So it gave us really this central staging ground, uh, to drive awareness, but also to give our guests on board. Almost back of house experience into F1.

It was an incredible experience. We had Paddock Club tickets for them, triple Crown tickets. But I think the wider partnership is really based on our brand and the fact that the cruise division, MSC cruises has really been built on teamwork. Shared goals, a shared vision, but ultimately a team [00:20:00] at the heart.

And we know that whether it's in HQ or onboard the ships, you cannot do it without an aligned, committed team. And, and that's the same for Formula One through the heart of that, yes, there's one driver, but there's an entire team behind it. So the family believed that, you know, there is this shared alliance, The values over teamwork. But of course, for us as a brand, it gives us an incredible platform, a whole new, addressable market to reach out to and talk to. And there's something exciting and exhilarating over F1 that we're proud to be part of.

David Sadigh: And just beyond Formula One. Uh, Anna, can you describe a bit? More your marketing strategy and the way you are, like trying to either convince, those high net worths who never, cruised before, or try to, uh, gain market share from your direct competitors. What are the pillars and Yeah, what's your vision?

As far as the marketing strategy is concerned?

Anna Nash: It's all about storytelling. Ultimately, you know, as a brand, we [00:21:00] are asking our guests to invest one money. Which is upfront, uh, when it comes to, to cruising especially, and it's an all inclusive experience so that the sort of the investment upfront, I suppose, is slightly larger than it might be in other experiences.

But to time, you know, we have our guests on board for. Really a minimum of seven nights. Whereas a hotel, you might find the average length of stay is two nights, 2.8 nights, three nights. We have our guests with us for seven nights. So it's a big commitment that we're asking, especially for those that have never 

Experienced our brand before. You know, when you've got captains of industry and entrepreneurs where their time is so precious to say to them, you've got your two or three weeks vacation, take a week with us, trust in us. It's very hard. So it's about consistency. It's about trust and it's really about storytelling.

But what I would say is there's something magical that happens when a guest [00:22:00] leaves the shore and joins the ship. You can see they're almost leaving the world behind this sense that the geo. Political tensions, they don't exist on the ship. All their stresses are sort of left behind. So you've, you find this comfort, you find this incredible sense of familiarity, this sense of friendliness, whether it's from guests to staff or actually from guests to guests.

You find that people are much more open on the ship. They're relaxed. This is their time. Everything is really all included, gives you an opportunity to say, Robin, would you like to join me for a martini tonight? And you, And you're not squabbling over who's paying the bill or There's that awkward moment, um, at the end of, of that.

So we do see this incredible, feeling on board that you don't tend to get the lobby is very different to a hotel. In a hotel lobby, you'll see everyone sort of rushing through from the entrance to the elevator, but actually on the ship, people are slowing down. They're taking a moment, they're looking [00:23:00] around.

And so that's what I'm really looking at in our marketing is how do we convey this value for money, this value for time, the fact that your time is optimized, and the fact that once you're on board. We can unpack everything for you and it's done for your entire week. You're not rushing to the airport.

You're not chasing Ubers every day to get to different places. So your time is incredibly optimized and it's very difficult. David, to your point, how do. Because there's so many different customers that we can appeal to. You know, there are the families, there are the multi gens, there are the couples, there are the people that are retired.

So it's a very, very complex, 360 degree plan across all channels. But I do know that it's,up to 17 touch points that a guest will need to see. Before they will actually commit to booking. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done to get a customer to book with us. But I do [00:24:00] know that once they've experienced us, they will want to sail again.

And that's the easier part, is getting them there in the first part.

Robin Swithinbank: So those 17 touch points and Formula one might be one. Are there other areas that you are targeting for partnership, for sponsorship?

Anna Nash: we have a partnership, for example, with Steinway, pianos. So we have a number of their pianos. Onboard and their artists will come and, um, sell with us through certain journeys Techno gym, as I talked about before. So yes, we have partnerships, but it will be down to, web presence, organic social media.

We're working very heavily at the moment with our, our PR team. Really looking at those larger editorial features because I think it's detail that people want, uh, to really understand. If I invest the time, most importantly more than the money, how am I going to feel? What is that journey? What can I expect?

And I think that for us as a new brand and a robust award strategy. winning awards is key for us as a, a brand [00:25:00] still in its early chapters to really help, people in their decision making process.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, you've clearly won quite a few and I noticed that um, you are in Conde Nast Travelers, hot. You are on the hot list, I think is

Anna Nash: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: strikes me as being very impressive only what, four years into the business, so congratulations.

Anna Nash: Thank you.

Robin Swithinbank: There's evidently a lot of confidence, a lot of optimism, a lot of ambition as there would be, as there should be. You, I, you very convinced this is a growth industry and that you can convince people, the land lovers among us to, uh, to leave our luxury hotels behind and to step onto a cruise ship point in the next year, two years, three years.

Anna Nash: Absolutely. And, you know, I, I strongly believe that we're an industry that still has its best years, ahead. I think there's an incredible amount of growth. The data out there, shows that there is the growth of our industry, and I believe that we really are the right product at the right time embracing this.

And as a family owned business, we're very lucky that we can be agile. We can, swerve where we need [00:26:00] to, we can take risks. We can move very, very quickly. So I believe as a brand, we can be that trailblazer, we can make a difference. And, we keep listening to our customers. And, and that to me is what keeps us grounded.

What helps us make, uh, the decisions that we need to really keep us relevant and to keep our, our guests coming back time and.

David Sadigh: Yeah, it's, it's interesting you mentioned the ability to move fast. That's a recurring question now that Robin and I have been facing in the podcast between like family owned businesses, publicly companies, some of them thinking that, uh, you know, family owned are slow and that in fact like publicly company are like able to operate at a faster pace. Do you have any example of a decision you believe, uh, wouldn't have been taken in the same way should the company have 

Anna Nash: I think our loyalty program was a key one where, we had it mapped out for much, much later this year and, you know, we decided. As a business, that we needed to bring that out much earlier [00:27:00] and we were able to, to bring the resources onboard to make that happen. So I think we're able to speed up the processes, when it comes to decision making and resources, and that to me is.

Only something that will happen with a, a family business that hasn't got, various boards, to sort of seek approval via. we can make decisions right here, right now, and, you know, whatever we feel the business needs.

David Sadigh: So I guess that, uh, you will have to keep this, fast pace of operating, alongside the business, uh, growth.

Anna Nash: And that David is, is the slight challenge. I feel like I'm always chasing time myself. The working days are, are never long enough and not only are we, rolling out, a family vision, I. And really still refining the brand and all of the marketing and doing the setup and the processes, but we're still delivering a product at the same time and we're still building a fleet of ships.

So we've got multiple different work streams, multiple projects [00:28:00] going on, but at great speed. But also just making sure that, the guest experience remains at the center of absolutely everything that we do.

Robin Swithinbank: Amazing, Anna. We could probably talk business all day and I. At some point I, I'm gonna find my mind is permanently on a cruise ship. By the sounds of things you, 

Anna Nash: I convinced.

Robin Swithinbank: in the past, 

you're, you're a natural born 

David Sadigh: I have to say it.

Robin Swithinbank: is, there's no doubt of that. Well look at some point. Of course, this is about glamor, this is about the excitement of travel and adventure and seeing new things and give our audience something else to dream about. If you were to pick any one of the destinations and explore a schedule, which would it be and why?

Anna Nash: I think for me, gosh, I mean, we've just recently launched. sailings for Explorer three. So she launches next year, but of course, we launch the sailings in advance. For me, it's really going up into Northern Europe. And, uh, the Norwegian fields for me is something that I've not yet experienced and definitely on my agenda.

So I will for sure be booking myself a.

Robin Swithinbank: Pining for the fjords. [00:29:00] I went up to Svalbard once as a, as a much younger man on a, a journalistic expedition. And I must say it was one of the most memorable experiences of my lifetime. It's very beautiful up there. Of course, you need to go at the right time of year, otherwise it's very dark and you'll see nothing. Right Anna, we missed dock, our conversation there with no few thoughts in our heads as to what it might be like to get away from it all. Onboard one of your ships for a few nights. Thank you so much for coming on the Luxury Society Podcast and sharing all that with us. We wish you fair wins and following seas.

I think we're supposed to say, aren't we? As you look to build up Explorer Journeys. Thanks

David Sadigh: And I'm,

 . 

Robin Swithinbank: And now back for his third appearance on the pod and to talk about what's going on with Chinese travelers. It's our managed China Pablo Marron digital luxury groups, managing partner China Pablo, welcome back. How are things in Shanghai?

Pablo: Hey Robin. great to be back. As always, things are doing okay in Shanghai. We're in the middle of the rainy seasons. hopefully once we get through that we can look forward to the summer.

Robin Swithinbank: Well, I'm based in the UK so it's a rainy season all year round, so you have no sympathy from me. But anyway, look, we're gonna be talking about Chinese travelers today, so let's [00:30:00] start perhaps with a history lesson or at least a recent history lesson. Give us a quick rundown of what 2019 to today.

Pablo: So where were we in 2019? the, there is one key fact, to keep in mind back in 2019, the luxury consumption from Chinese consumers. Was down with two third of their consumption happening outside of China and only one third happening domestically.

Fast forward, COVID happens and China shuts down, and the country lives in a bubble for a few years during which a big portion of that, spending is repatriated. Not entirely, but a big portion. We're pretty much going from one third domestic, two third. Half of that is repatriated. As a result, most of the luxury consumption doubles in China over the course of the two, three years where the country was on the lockdown.

But if you look at the contribution [00:31:00] of Chinese consumers, a third was lost fast wind, China reopens. And the big question that everybody was trying to answer back then, and that we're still trying to answer today, even though we start to be a little bit smarter on the topic, is, are we gonna go back to a one third, two thirds type of scenario, or not, because this will have a major impact on what can be observed in terms of growth in the market.

Pretty much if we're going back to a one third, two third scenario. it'll be virtually impossible to achieve growth in the market if travel resumes are like this low single digit. If the travel resumes, with another consumption that is a little bit more moderate, that's where you can start looking again at a growth trajectory for the luxury industry around 10% and something like that.

And so this is really that big question. What has been interesting now is that we're already at 40%. [00:32:00] For 60% locally while at the time travel has resumed, has gained again in popularity, but as we'll discuss later on, the behavior have significantly changed when it comes to destinations, but also when it comes to expectation and motivations to travel.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay. exactly. We'll come to that in just a moment, but let's try and stick in the past a little bit if we can. 

so we've got an idea then of this sort of two thirds, one third split

between, outbound, spend and, domestic spend. but talk to me about the why, why did Chinese shoppers travel to buy? Why shop abroad when luxury brands during the 2010s were falling over themselves to open up retail networks inside China?

Pablo: What? What's interesting is that over time, I think that it was at first mostly motivated by very practical consideration. And over time it evolved towards more sophisticated and more aspirational motivation. So if we try to break that down back then motivation [00:33:00] to travel was a better experience. Very often aside from the destination, because obviously if you want to go, if you go to Paris, you want to visit,fashion stores.

If you go to Switzerland, you want to eat chocolate and so on. But the idea of the experience that was delivered in the stores as well as that time. Was perceived as being elevated from what was offered in the market.

so the experience, access to the product. That was still a time, there was still a time back then where many products were not available in China, because of lack of inventory or also in some cases a willingness of the brands to not make their most.

In demand products too available, domestically. So there was experience, there was access to the product, and there was obviously price, arbitrage, motivated by different reasons, taking advantage of currency exchanges, taking advantage also of taxes that wouldn't apply to the same level and so on.

and so those were really the [00:34:00] three key motivations. and I would say that. Over time, experience started to balance more and more, but at the beginning it was mostly to make a good deal.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay. So if those are the three motivations, where were they going to find, these experiences, to find access to the product and to find these better priced to value ratios. 

Pablo: there is, I would say, almost historically rooted in the Chinese culture. An appetite for making the best deal possible. This is a country where negotiation, looking for the best deal is at the core of everything. and for example, just a little anecdote on that, the world has heard a quite extensively now about Red Notes, the social media that is now super popular in China and an alternative to Instagram.

Red Notes was already active in the market about 10 years ago. At that time, it was a discussion forum spec specifically for people to exchange on tips in terms of what to buy and where to buy it abroad to make the best deal. [00:35:00] This is what allowed red. To accumulate that audience of savvy consumers, and they were exchanging tips in terms of, that product is gonna be cheaper if you go to that, duty free mall in Korea than if you go on s and et cetera.

So there was always that, that, that culture of looking for the best deals and the best place to go. traditionally you would look at like the kind of like domestic market of those brands. but also, again, Destinations like Korea, like Hong Kong back then, that was still perceived as a fantastic opportunity to pay less for your products thanks to the advantageous tax system and things like that.

Robin Swithinbank: and what about European? You mentioned Paris, and you mentioned Switzerland and the US too. And were these big travel destinations for outbound Chinese travelers?

Pablo: Yeah. Because you were not only. Going there to get an access to a product and to pay less for it. You are going there because you would see those destinations as also the one that prescribes [00:36:00] on, on, on the entire lifestyle that goes with it. so obviously Europe and America, like massively benefited from that.

Like the contribution of Chinese travelers to some of those market p and l was very significant.

Robin Swithinbank: And so obviously then the borders were closed and there were significant travel restrictions during COVID, which went deep into sort of 2023, I think.

it's stating the obvious to say that COVID therefore changed the picture, but can you give us an idea of how exactly, how has that landscape now changed and what does it look like?

Pablo: So it changed things at many levels. First off, during those two years where China was in a bubble and booming, brands doubled down on China, the most amazing flagship stores were open. The most amazing events were scattered. Brands started also to privilege that market over many others when it comes to stock allocation and so on.

So consumers got used to be much better served and to get access to products that in the past were not necessarily accessible because everybody [00:37:00] needed China to grow at that time. In addition to that, The behavior of consumers changed a lot as a result of COVID because COVID played a massive accelerator in digitalizing, the retail experience.

And I'm not just talking about the growth of e-commerce that can rise between categories and segments. I'm talking about the important role that digital platforms or tools plays at different stages of the consumer journey. During those three years, consumer got used to connect with sales associates from a brand on their personal phones.

Clientelling exploded to an extent that we, in Europe, we're still trying to figure out if WhatsApp is going to be a good communication channels for our audience. You cannot step into a store in China without having the sales associate asking you if you're willing to connect with them or using your personal WeChat account.

So Clientelling has massively evolved. a [00:38:00] lot of the tools have matched when it comes to drive to store, solutions when it comes to the rise of loyalty program, like 90% of the luxury brands in China. Have a loyalty program that is accessible on your phone. And so all of that also created a certain gap for users that are now traveling abroad.

And they got very comfortable in interacting with the stores in a certain way through tools that are completely integrated in their day-to-day life. And suddenly you travel abroad and that store locator that was developed solely having China in mind suddenly doesn't work. I'm not gonna name any brand, but you have some.

Flagship brands that currently, if you travel abroad and check on their WeChat account, if they have stores in Paris or Switzerland, it would say no because those solutions were not developed with a global mindset. So the behavior has changed in terms of the interaction extra and also the perception of the destination [00:39:00] has significantly changed.

and that's probably the biggest shift, right? we've seen travel. Resuming very practically at first from destinations that were closed, that appeared as being safe. we've seen Southeast Asia benefiting from the rise of Chinese travelers two years ago. last year was all about Japan exploding.

nothing had changed in Japan except the fact that there was more Chinese travel than before. and now. We, the big question is what about Europe and the us? We start to have signs that travel is gonna aggressively resume in Europe. we start to see numbers that summer, holidays this year for the first time.

a significant influx of Chinese travelers expected us is a much bigger question as we all know.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, clearly the, the domestic consumer experience changed dramatically during COVID. nonetheless, as we've identified, we are now starting to see the numbers of Chinese travelers increasing, and some are predicting that actually the numbers this year will [00:40:00] exceed those of 2019, the last year before COVID. what does that mean for luxury brands targeting Chinese consumers today? Do they need to reprioritize? there's obviously been a big focus on the domestic market over the past five years, or does this surge in outbound travelers dictate that they shift the balance back, or is it gonna have to be some sort of measure of both?

Pablo: I think that truly depends who you speak with and what's very interesting for us is how we can observe naturally very different point of view. On whether you speak with someone that is focused on the China market or whether you speak with someone that looks at the big picture. The fact is that several markets have suffered also from the fact that Chinese travelers disappeared and plenty of market are eagerly waiting them to come back.

Robin Swithinbank: No, particularly Europe, right?

Pablo: Sure, definitely. so what is interesting is that if I look at that with a very local mindset, I would say, I would be like, [00:41:00] what can I do to remain attractive, to remain competitive? But I think it's more of a paradigm shift in the way that is, is that truly an issue for brands? at the end of the day,I'm a European luxury brand.

I stand with a certain positioning, certain values that very often resonate also with my origin. it makes plenty of sense before we even go into practical consideration that consumers have an interest in experiencing my brand and purchasing each one abroad. and I think that the big shift that needs to happen is for brands to start looking at that phenomenon that is only resuming.

It's not new, it was just on post for some time as an actual opportunity. we know that in China we struggle right now in the current market for new customers acquisition. elevation strategy for brands refocus on VICs and so on. Maybe travel retail is the solution for new customers acquisition. Maybe a lot of those customers that never cross that gap of actually stepping [00:42:00] into one of your stores in Shanghai will do it on the occasion of their next trip in Paris.

And so I think that once you start to look at that as an opportunity, it raises very interesting questions, not only on how do you capture that, first off, how do you stimulate that opportunity? And I think that the big dilemma for our brands right now is that they're trying to rationalize their investments in China because they're looking at the domestic consumption that is slowing down.

But at the same time, they're expecting Chinese travelers to start spending abroad. You build desire here, then they're not gonna fall in love with your brand once they step out of the plane. And so again, I think that's, we're really at a crossroads right now where there is that big rebound that everybody's expecting and brands trying to figure out on do I keep pushing in China or is it time to take a step back?

First off, I think that you build awareness and desire domestically, then you need to make sure that at the destinations. You go back to some of the fundamentals that were actually [00:43:00] probably better executed in some cases back in 2019. What we're used to have Chinese travelers on the day-to-day in the stores.

And that goes way beyond just the training, of your retail teams and having a couple of Chinese speaking employees because now you need also to be able to have an experience that matches better what customers have been used to domestically. The last opportunity beyond, I would say, activating them.

Capturing them is how to reactivate them. And I think that's gonna be the next big strategic topic for brands. How do I take advantage of those potentially new or existing consumers that are purchasing my products abroad? And how do I build the right infrastructure and organization to make sure that this is not a one-off.

That, that becomes an asset once they come back. And this is where it becomes a very complex topic also in a case where regulations and compliance works in different ways between the different markets. [00:44:00] Without going into two technical consideration on cross border data exchanges, GDPR on the one end, PIPN, on the others.

and this is a very complex topic, but I believe it, strategic one and a very big opportunity for brands.

Robin Swithinbank: I wonder if we're describing a shift that's happening rather than one that's happened. which I suppose begs the question of whether or not this shift is temporary or whether what is happening now is something that is gonna become permanent.

Is it here to stay? Goodness. Dare we ask the question? Is this the new normal?

Pablo: If we look at it again, we are at 40 60, and we're describing that in a context where travel to Europe still hasn't fully resumed. I think that we are looking at phenomenon that, in my point of view, are permanent confidence, sophistication from the Chinese users. But at the end of the day, does that mean that there is no aspiration to travel and no perceived benefit associated to it?

Ob obviously not. I think that the framework has changed, but the big picture remained the same. and I [00:45:00] actually expect the overseas consumptions from Chinese consumers to. Continue to increase, potentially not to the same proportions as before COVID, but right now it's hard for me to find an argument where that proportion would significantly decrease or go back to lower numbers.

Robin Swithinbank: Very interesting. And I know that sounds like a tone of optimism. I would suggest, certainly something for luxury brands to be considering as, we move through 2025 and into 2026. But look, Pablo time has absolutely flown by. we must land the plane on this one every time. It's an education. A real pleasure catching up with you again, and thank you so much for bringing all those insights to us and for joining us on the Luxury Society Podcast.

Pablo: Always a pleasure. Thanks Robin. 

Robin Swithinbank: And now in this travel themed episode, cruising back onto the pod. Four. On the download is Benedict lgs, partner and international client Director Bene Welcome back on deck.

What's in the download this episode.

Benedicte: Hi, Robin. Great to be back in this episode. I want to look at the luxury cruise market. Through such data and [00:46:00] digital advertising patterns, the numbers reveal some shifts in who's gaining momentum and who's losing ground. I.

Robin Swithinbank: As we heard from Anna, new players like Explorer Journeys are disrupting the market. What does the search data tell us though?

Benedicte: Looking at total monthly search volume globally on Google Region, seven Cs leads with 1.2 million searches a month, followed by Silver Sea at 859,000 searches a month, and 49% year over year growth. Then you have Seaborn that sits at 437,000 searches. But it's declining at minus 18% year over year.

 The Newcomer Explorer Journeys has 212,000 monthly searches for show strong momentum with plus 83% year over year growth. Ritz Carlton and yacht collection generates around the same volume, 211,000 monthly searches with 22% year over year growth.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, that seems telling and perhaps the impact of the Formula One partnership is paying dividends already for Explorer Journeys. [00:47:00] Looking at the geography of this, where is this search coming from and what does that suggest about which consumers are driving revenues? I.

Benedicte: Well, there's a clear US dominance across all brands, but the concentration levels vary significantly. The Ritz Carlton and yacht collection, for instance, is the most US focused one at 68% followed by region Silver Seas at 53%. Then Seaborne At 47%, what stands out is that both Silver Sea and Explorer Journeys coming into lower US concentration of around 40%, and they're the most internationally diversified.

As a result, silver Sea and Explorer Journeys have a great popularity in their closer to home market, such as the uk, which represent 10 to 15%, and also have other markets such as Italy and Germany appearing as as well with strong demand.

Robin Swithinbank: How does that translate to their digital marketing strategies?

Benedicte: This is where we see very different approaches. Explore Journeys has launched over 1,100 digital ads across [00:48:00] five languages since January, 2025, which is a very high volume and reflects the international focus. Meanwhile, a brand like Ritz Carlton keeps it minimal with just above like 400 English only ads, which aligns with their US focus strategy and also their high positioning.

Robin Swithinbank: So those are unique digital ads. 1100 unique digital ads. We're talking about crumbs. Okay. Uh, any other data points worth noting?

Benedicte: Yes. Here's a bonus insight. When you look at gross tonnage per passenger as a luxury metric, you see different approaches to premium positioning. Ritz Carlton yacht collection leads at 104 GT per passenger and the SeaOne averages between 67 and 87 GT per passenger, depending on the ship size. While Explorer sits at 69 and Silver Sea ranges between 59 and 75 Passenger.

So this general align with their pricing strategy?

Robin Swithinbank: So that's something to do with how much space you get on the ship.[00:49:00] 

Benedicte: Yeah, completely. And we think it shows what the different operators prioritize on one hand, space exclusivity versus like service and experience.

Robin Swithinbank: Cool. Well, thanks be I'll bring some sharp insights. As always, we'll catch you in the next episode.

Benedicte: Thank you, Robin. 

Robin Swithinbank: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now.

I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.