
The Luxury Society Podcast
The Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by DLG (Digital Luxury Group), brings exclusive insider conversations on the transformation of the luxury industry as it expands its influence across sports, entertainment and culture. Blending data-driven insights, expert analysis and engaging storytelling, it connects executives, visionaries and emerging trends in a dynamic mix of fact, expertise and entertainment.
Hosted by Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh.
The Luxury Society Podcast
Overtaking manoeuvres: Richard Mille’s Peter Harrison on scaling the watch podium
In this episode, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh sit down with Peter Harrison, CEO of Richard Mille EMEA, to explore how the ultra-luxury watchmaker rocketed from start-up to Swiss powerhouse in just two decades. Peter, who has been with the brand since the early 2000s, offers rare behind-the-scenes insight into the philosophy, partnerships, and precision-engineering that have made Richard Mille one of the world’s most successful watch brands.
From selling his first watch to building a network of high-performance ambassadors such as Felipe Massa and Rafael Nadal, to expanding into key growth markets, Peter explains what makes Richard Mille tick—literally and strategically.
Also in this episode: DLG’s Benedicte Soteras returns for On the Download, revealing data that shows Richard Mille's online and social momentum is accelerating—especially in fast-growing emerging markets.
Brought to you by https://digitalluxurygroup.com/
Follow us @digitalluxurygroup & @robin_swithinbank on Instagram
Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025 www.fallowfieldmason.com
DLG ep 11
Robin Swithinbank: [00:00:00] Hello and a warm summary. Welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group.
I'm your host, Robin Sw
David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh.
Robin Swithinbank: In this episode, David and I continue our behind the scenes look at how the ever-evolving world of luxury works. With an interview with one of the godfathers of watchmaking superpower Richard Mille today. Richard Mille boasts revenues of 1.6 billion Swiss francs, making it one of just seven Swiss watchmakers in the so-called billion Swiss Franc Club.
But how in the world did a brand founded in 2001 accelerate through the pack so quickly and just how much fuel is there left in the tank at a time when the Swiss watch industry is losing traction? As it turns out, not every brand is stuck in neutral. I. Then once David and I have tried to figure out what luxury brands might learn from Rashad Mill's Rapid rise up the watchmaking grid.
Benedict Terce will gear up the conversation with a look at some equally startling search and social data that show the independent [00:01:00] watchmaker really is firing on all cylinders. So David, let's park the Motorsport puns and get on with the show.
David Sadigh: Let's do it.
Peter Harrison: We never looked over our shoulder at what other watch brands were doing. We were looking at, at people with a very high disposable income it's a brand that didn't come with any, Preconditions in terms of who you had to be to, what kind of person you are.
Moreover, it was a watch that you could wear properly as a watch. It was a proper mechanical masterpiece that wasn't just meant to be kept in the safe.
It's no secret. There've been discussions in the past, but we decided that our lives were better as an independent company.
Who are we servicing here in this five day? Hell hole. And,who's getting the most enjoyment. our clients hated it.
We will explain to the client that you're afraid your watch is on the stolen [00:02:00] list. Here's a police report, and now we are gonna have to call the police.
Robin Swithinbank: And so it's David and my great pleasure to welcome onto the pod Peter Harrison, chief Executive of the Ultra Luxe Watchmaker Richard Mille EMEA Division. Peter is one of the most significant players in the contemporary luxury industry.
He's helmed Richard Mille's operation in Europe and the Middle East for almost two decades, and been at the heart of developing the brand's glittering array of partnerships in the fields of art design, motorsport and sport. in the uk, but now based in Milan, Ken Yachtsman Peter has helped steer Richard Mille to the front of the Swiss watchmaking arm, Marta. before we talk Peter first some context about one of the world's most powerful luxury brands. While the name might be familiar now, thanks to partnerships in Formula One and with icons of sport, including rafa nadal and mark cavendish. 25 years ago, Richard Mille, the watch company, didn't exist. Founded in 2001 by the economist, French entrepreneur and watch industry executive. is now firmly ensconced amongst Switzerland's top 10 [00:03:00] watchmakers buy sales the process, creating apparently recession proof brand equity. Now according to Morgan Stanley's estimates last year, ARD mill recorded revenues of 1.55 billion Swiss francs, up 200 million on 2023. Bucking the industry trend of decline and putting it comfortably ahead of industry stall warts.
Longines vacheron constantin breitling, and behind only Rolex, Cartier Omega, audemars piguet, and Patek Philippe In that order. And all this with sales of just 5,700 watches, a fraction of the competition and a figure that would indicate an implied average retail price of around 270,000 Swiss francs before tax. company controls a hundred percent of sales through a global network of around 40 boutiques, and it also has a firm grip on its pre-owned business thanks to its pioneering 90 boutique concept. Where according to DLG data, some of their watches, such as the reference 67.02, command more than a 40% premium over retail [00:04:00] prices. Hel Mill's story is one of unrelenting and unquestionable success. One that has frequently invited imitators, not yet rivals. So Peter, first of all, welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast and second, wow. What a journey. What a story.
Peter Harrison: Good morning.
Robin Swithinbank: I'm sure you spend most of your time looking forward, but tell us if you can, how does it feel to look back on the company's 24 year history, given the lofty position it enjoys today?
I.
Peter Harrison: Gosh, 24 years. Yeah. it's funny. It, it feels like yesterday. I was in London last night and bumped into my original employer, who was a jeweler in London, who's now 89 years old, and we were laughing and he employed me when I was 17 and we were laughing about. the passage of time and he looked amazing.
He was 89 years old and he said, you are gray And he said, yes, but I'm 59. I'm entitled to be gray. You are 89. You, it's normal. and he said, this feels like yesterday that we were traveling around in the Middle East and you were [00:05:00] helping us. And I said, yeah, I know. And I, and he said, and how long has it been since you started Richard?
Me? I said, I said, I think I sold my first watch in. 2003, maybe 2002. It was one of the first watches that Richard made. And, and yeah, and it, feels like yesterday and, and I get up in the morning with the same energy levels and wanting to do the same thing that I started doing with Richard 20 odd years ago.
yeah, it's amazing. It's just been an incredible journey.
David Sadigh: Peter, do you remember your first involvement in the brand? first day at the office.
Peter Harrison: First day at the office. Richard and I were friends before he had, well, he always had an idea to create his own brand, but before. The first, drawings were done and everything. We were friends from around 1995 when he was running Mosan. And then we started to talk and he started to talk about, oh, I wanna do this, and what do you think?
And I wanna do that and how would it [00:06:00] work? And I had by, by then, I think, let's say the year 2000, I had my own luxury business in London. and I remember talking with him and asking him how it's going. And we used to meet more frequently at the beginning of the business, his business.
Andhe discussed, he said, Peter, let's do something together and would you like, To take the US market and I'd run a small luxury business in London before with that had a outpost in America. And I was like, honestly, I can't,I don't think I could live in the US and I could live there, but I'm not sure I could run a business.
the ethics and everything are completely different. And the approach is different and I'm gonna stay more in Europe. And so we were talking about that and. I, I wasn't in a big rush and neither was he, which I guess is good. And then I was out to lunch in London, I can remember it like yesterday with a, an old client, a good [00:07:00] friend.
And he said to me, oh, have you seen this brand, Richard Mill? I was a bit, I was a bit yeah. I have actually, and I, rich is a good friend of mine. Oh, he's just launched this watch. I've seen the picture of it. it's called the RM eight and we only advertised on the back of Motorsport Magazine because that was our sort of demographic and probably was all we could afford at the time.
It wasn't, might not even been the back. It might have been in the inside. The client showed me the ad and now he said, oh, right, well let's get Richard on the phone. And he said, see if we can get one. And I was like, Okay. So I rang Richard and I said, I'm with, um, so and so.
He was a member of a royal family from Asia. And he said, I'm with so andSo. And Richard said, I'll give him my regards and I said, he's really interested to have this RMA8 watch and. can you I'd sold watches for Richard before then. I said this was a significant watch, and he said, yes, we've just launched it and it's [00:08:00] Swiss francs in pink gold.
And, that was like, what? And I turned to the client and I said, yes, it's, it's 470,000 francs in, in pink gold. And the client said, does it come into titanium? And I said, oh, hang on. I said, can you make it entertaining, Richard? He's like, yeah, yeah, of course. And this client said, I'll have both. And I was like, I'll call you back, Richard.
Robin Swithinbank: And then I rang him in the evening and I said, I think probably we need to think about doing something more seriously together. And, gives us an indication of how quickly the market, which wasn't obviously big markets. In those early days. I understand RHEL was making tens and then only hundreds of watches, the market quite clearly took to the product very quickly. Why do you think that was?
Peter Harrison: I think it was the first time that, a company was making watches for people that actually really wanted to wear the watches. They didn't come with a, it's a brand that didn't come with any, Preconditions in terms of who you [00:09:00] had to be to, to what kind of person you are. It was a watch that you could wear at night.
It was a watch that you could wear during the day. Moreover, it was a watch that you could wear properly as a watch. It was a proper mechanical masterpiece that wasn't just meant to be kept in the safe. it was meant to be warn. And I think those people appreciated that. it was easy to read.
It was technically fantastic. if you walked into a room, this was the most important thing. I think if you walked into a room, you'd probably be the only one wearing one.
Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I mean,that next level of exclusivity was married to this next gen tech as you've alluded
Peter Harrison: But at the same time, it was also married to these extraordinarily high prices and high prices for a brand, which as we know, had only been around for a year or two at that stage.
Robin Swithinbank: Did you have to convince clients to buy into it or was it like that first conversation with the member of the the Middle Eastern royal family
Peter Harrison: I think I think people understood a, a little bit like our motor car, auto sport, DNA, that it was a product created without [00:10:00] compromise. we weren't setting out, we don't have a watch that sells from, A hundred to 150 or 300 to 425. We wanted to make, this is what we're making, this is how we're gonna make it.
for example, I don't know, like the carbon base plates at the beginning, I think only one out of a hundred be usable, So we were throwing away 199 to have one. And when you explain that to people, connoisseur, and people understand. certainly Autosport, but other things as well that, the wa just the wastage alone, there were some amazing stats at the time.
for example. A kilo of screws was a million Swiss francs. And of course, titanium screws, you are a hell of a lot in a kilo. But it was still, nine different hand finishing techniques to produce one screw.
it was that kind of attention to detail. I think the customers really understood and they understood the effort was being made. And, for [00:11:00] example, RM four, which was a very early watch of ours, I think it was six years in development. It was a complete nightmare to make, but it, Technically the movement was made by Redder and Pappy and it, we just went backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards. But when it came, the customers absolutely adored it and understood that, this level of attention to detail and strive for perfection comes with, you know, a price.
David Sadigh: It's interesting that you mention, The no compromise on the design part.
Robin and I, were speaking with, sir Jerry McGovern on Jaguar a couple of,weeks ago And he was extremely, obsessed about this idea of being able to shift things around and try to come with disruptive element. So in your point of view, this played like an important role as far as the success of Sharmi is concerned.
Peter Harrison: Yeah, certainly. I think if you take a lot of areas in, in [00:12:00] art for example, there's always a fisure in, someone comes along and does something where everyone just goes, whoa, what is that? Or, and I think it's the same in the car business. Something comes along. it, it might only be a Land Rover defender for example, and it, it changes everything and, I think at the time, through some luck, through some canny judgment as well. we came with a product that people really wanted but we didn't set out to make something extremely expensive.
It just happened to be expensive because the way we made it, it turned out that way.
Robin Swithinbank: A very high level of risk nonetheless.
Peter Harrison: Yeah.
Robin Swithinbank: I love, some of the stories from those early days about how you developed the early partnerships. I was fortunate to have a conversation with Philippe Masser earlier this year at the launch of the Ferrari Watch. I.
Peter Harrison: And he was telling the story of how his agent rung the phone number that he found on a ARD mill ad.
Robin Swithinbank: Of course, back in the mid two thousands, that was the way it was done, wasn't it?
Peter Harrison: Yeah, exactly. those ads, we also published a [00:13:00] price that was a very important thing. We put the price on the ads, so it was all, it wasn't like a sort of like a ba, a cigarette packet. It came with a health warning. It was just, we wanted to make everyone aware that this It wasn't just an ad for something. It was A made,
exactly. Yeah.
Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. And I suppose that's probably what, um, prompted the agent to, to make the call in the first place. But as I understand it, as Philippe told the story,
Peter Harrison: Yeah.
Robin Swithinbank: the receptionist picked up the phone but then handed the phone straight to Rashard himself. That was the size of the company at that point, that sort of, everybody was in the same room almost.
And,it was possible to ring that number and get through to Rashad if you, if you were the right person. But just thinking about these partnerships and signing Felipe back in 2004, I think it was,
Peter Harrison: Yeah,
Robin Swithinbank: has that shaped the company's strategic direction over the past 20 years?
Peter Harrison: I think it's been very important in terms that, for example, with Felipe,and many of the ambassadors partnerships, which formed the watch had to be [00:14:00] worn. it was, it ha it was part of a testing process that, we could say to our clients, this watch has been worn. 2004 Formula One, season 2005, formula One season.
It's come back. They told us certain things about it, how it's performed, how it hasn't performed, in what conditions. It works well and what, and these are extreme conditions for, it's not something you can put on a winding machine in, a part of the Alps and hope that it will. Perform exactly the same in, 40 degrees of heat and 80% humidity, and, in, in tough conditions.
this is something which I. You, you can only get good feedback from those kind of guys, whether it's, whether it's Raffa, Nadal, playing with the watch on his wrist, creating enormous amounts of G-Force, but also in terrible conditions, really tough conditions. a lot of [00:15:00] dust, a lot of.
and the watch comes back and it may break or it may not perform well, but then it gives us the opportunity to say, okay, it hasn't performed well 'cause of this and this. Let's change that. and then when the watches came back in production watches, we would say to the clients, listen, we've discovered this and this.
we're gonna make these changes to your watch. When it comes in, it's an upgrade. You won't know it, you won't notice it. But, and so those ambassadors, those partnerships as they went on. there were genuine kind of relationships, genuine friendships with amazing people like Felipe, who's still a great friend.
And, I can bump into him anywhere. And again, it's it feels like yesterday, I met him for the first time. But one of the things that we, whether again, whether it was by accident, it wasn't by design, it was those people you could sit with anywhere you, you could introduce to anyone. [00:16:00] And they was, they were as interested in that other person, their client, or whoever it happened to be as the person was interested in them.
So they were very sociable, very normal human beings who just happened to be ambassadors for the brand.
David Sadigh: you mentioned several times the word friendship,
Felipe Masa being a friend,
IL being a long time friend even before the company was started.
what's the place of friendship and family, in this overall success story?
Peter Harrison: I think you know, friends, you can tell them anything, right? you, you should be able to tell 'em anything. And I think it's the fact that you are able to say, listen, I was able to listen, Richard, this is,I think we're making a mistake here. Or I think we, this is something we should consider.
And he was like, yes, maybe Pete, you are right. let's, when we see each other, let's talk about it. And I think, that made a big difference and that we all had the same vision, the same goal. We [00:17:00] wanted to, Just a small thing, but we wanted to, we had a very high bar when it came to customer service and to after sale service, and it's something that Richard and I had agreed about.
from the very beginning that for example, we, the what shouldn't be gone for six months for service. that's just ridiculous. It's something that as a. as a person, as a human being, your watch becomes something you're wearing every day. and if you're really attached to it, to give it up to someone for six months is just ludicrous.
can you imagine taking your, your Range Rover or your Ferrari in for a service? So let's say come back in six months time. so we had all these. Comparison. We said we can't, we've gotta try and do it in weeks. We're talking about turning something around in weeks.
So all that was important. And that friendship, we, going back to your original question, that element of friendship between us all enabled us to have common goals.
David Sadigh: Yeah. This lead me [00:18:00] just to a another point is like, do you think it would've been able to, generate this level of achievement and success, should the brand was started from a group I.
Peter Harrison: I don't know. I have something I feel very strongly about. I don't believe that perhaps you are great seller of fountain pens. I. Which also make leather goods, which also make something else, doesn't necessarily make you a great watch retailer or distributor or manufacturer. And I think that's where those groups have lost or have lost some time ago actually, that sense of identity for brands which are 200 years old and aren't really focusing on.
The great heritage they've got. We came without that heritage, for example, that, we didn't have those handcuffs of, a brand which is 200 years old shouldn't be making watches out of titanium
I think those brands come with a lot of. Handcuffs in what you can do, but at the same time, I don't think they're [00:19:00] really being run properly.
Robin Swithinbank: Is this one of the reasons why you've resisted a sale? Because it's been a while now since there were rumors of a char meal sale, but there, there have been stories in the past.
when you guys have looked at that, have you thought actually, if this brand is absorbed into a group, it will lose some of that identity?
Peter Harrison: For sure. it's no secret. There've been discussions in the past, but we decided that our lives were better as an independent company. And I think, if you look at the top four, five brands in Switzerland, they're all independent. So it's not a secret, it's not, it's not rocket science that all the group brands will fall way below that, and will continue to fall.
The fact that we don't have to increase our turnover. we don't have to increase our production numbers. our lives won't change if we make 10% less this year or 15% less next year. 'cause we've never hesitated in something that Rich and I have discussed frequently.
We would never hesitate to cut production if we felt it was the [00:20:00] right thing to do and I think that makes a big difference.
If you're answering to 50 million shareholders or however many, those groups have got, and those shareholders are looking for five to seven, to maybe 10% per year increases. your whole product is compromised, absolutely compromised.
Robin Swithinbank: Uh, the future of the company looks quite set suddenly. I mean, you've written your own succession narrative. Suddenly Rha stepping back with his son Alexandra and his daughter Amanda, taking on senior roles alongside Maxim Ner son of Mill co-founder Dominique, how has this process been managed? Is it complete, and does that mean the future of the company is set in stone for now?
Peter Harrison: Yes. you know, we all. Said that this is what we wanted to do. my daughter's involved in our business in EMEA and Cecile Gerner, for example, Dominic's daughter has been in the production on the design front for several years now. So it's pretty seamless in the factory. [00:21:00] and then, for Alex and Amanda.
their transitionary period into senior roles. Amanda used to work for me in the Middle East. She understands my philosophy and how I like to work. and Alex also did some time in the US and so I think they, they know more and more, or they knew already by the time Richard said.
I'd like to spend less time in the business how things would operate. So it's been pretty seamless and, we've agreed another, I think 20 year extension to my company's partnership with the brand. and, it's quite exciting. There's still lots to do, still lots of markets to.
Explore and to develop that we haven't done yet.
David Sadigh: Speaking of, markets that
you guys want to develop, what's the focus for the years to computer?
Peter Harrison: I'm just opening. I had one of my first set of clients when we started the partnership agreement in [00:22:00] 2005 were in Spain. and we had a good Spanish retail network, but we never had a store. And since we stopped working with retailers, we never had a store in Spain. And we have probably our greatest ambassadors happens to be Spanish.
And one of the first people I saw wearing an RM nine was the King of Spain. and he's still got it, the old king. And,so we are opening a mar, we're opening a store in Spain in September. that's really exciting for us and, great location. And I think will be really good. I'm really interested in the Spanish market and.
we are also opening a new store this summer in Monaco. and then there are other places that I want to go. I'm considering an option in Zurich, I really don't think we've done justice in Germany, which is probably one of the most commercially, one of the most important markets in Europe.
difficult. always been a difficult market for us because, they're [00:23:00] quite. set in their vision of what a luxury watch is, but I think that generations change. They're becoming more open and we've had one store in Munich for six years I think now, and that does well, but I think we can go further north to Hamburg and, potentially Berlin, Hamburg area and have another store.
and I think our partnership with Ferrari helps out a lot. Germany's the second biggest market in the world for Ferrari. So
David Sadigh: In Europe, do you sell mostly to clients locally
Peter Harrison: that's always been my goal. That's, I believe my company's job has been to develop the markets that I have contractually, distribution rights do I would focus very heavily on, on the British market, on the French market, on the Swiss market, if I have a store in that location.
My conversations with the people in those stores and with my marketing teams and so on, is we need to focus on the local clients. Of course, if you're in [00:24:00] London, Or Paris you get a lot of international traffic as well. and some international clients would rather buy their watch when they're traveling from a Richard Mill store in Europe or the Middle East than anywhere else.
So I'm very lucky in that respect.
Robin Swithinbank: Peter, it's good to hear you talk about, expansion and looking to move into, to new territory. Well suddenly open new stores, new boutiques. but nonetheless, we know that the macroeconomic picture for the watch industry is not so good. There's been much talk of an industry in crisis. In
number of watch companies suffering from reduced manufacturing exports and sales. Some brands and suppliers have even put employees on reduced working hours.
Peter Harrison: But then Hmm. the talk is that brands at the high end, such as Char Mill. been largely unaffected by this downturn as the numbers I mentioned at the head of this conversation would suggest. But the industry is very interconnected. brands rely on this network of suppliers to deliver components so that they can then deliver their watches. How has this current climate affected Reho Mill And Indeed, how will it affect your ability to expand as your planning?
Yeah, interesting [00:25:00] question. we've been in a fortunate position that in the last probably four to five years, we produce significantly less watches than the market demands. I think as people who have collected watches, and it's true within Richard Mill as well, people that have collected Richard Mill.
For example, have over the years, slowly upped their expectations of what they want, so we are able to serve those clients a little bit better,
as a kind of macroeconomic thing throughout the industry. It's one of those brands, and I've always said this, that if you go out on a Saturday morning to buy Richard Meal, which as you said in the outset of your introduction, has an average price point of 270,000 Swiss rings, it's a bit higher actually.
you're not walking down Bond Street or the route of road or the, into the Dubai Mall thinking about your mortgage. So I [00:26:00] think in that respect, you are a little bit, protected from that. you're not thinking, oh, should I buy the Richard Meal or should I get the GShock?
it's completely different ends of the spectrum. G shock's a great watch, by the way. And,I think that, the people,I've seen it. Since the change of government, perhaps in the us the people that buy Richard Meal, actually there's more of them than there were before. and some surprising people, that have appeared on our doorstep in the stores that we wouldn't have perhaps considered Richard Mill clients have suddenly appeared and.
The great thing about making 6,000 watches ish a year, it means that I, my company will receive around 2000 of those watches. it's not a complicated thing to do to find 2000 people. the [00:27:00] complicated thing is to keep everybody happy for those 2000 watches, which is very difficult because.
In reality, I've probably got seven or 8,000 clients for those 2000 watches. and I'm aiming not to. In fact, I just had a discussion with the store manager here in London this morning about it. it's, the difficulty is to allocate what we have coming and not disappoint people and make sure they, feel the family love that we were talking about earlier.
So I'm touching wood, but it's not, it hasn't been a problem in the last 20 years and I can't see it being a problem in the short term,
David Sadigh: One of the things, we have been seeing, in our research at DLG, is that The level of pre-owned watches, hamil watches that are available online are quite limited, not to say really scar, it seems to be directly linked to 90. Your pre-owned boutique concept, where basically you manage your own CPO, could you talk a bit [00:28:00] more about the CPO 90 or CPO program?
Peter Harrison: Yeah, we. The first reason we started it was we had a few clients who wanted to buy our historical models. And it was funny at the time to think, we had historical models, we produced a lot of watches in quite limited quantities. When you think about watches like the Congo, it was like 30 pieces, or the watch was less than 25 pieces and.
People that came to the brand. I have one particularly good Italian friend of mine who's a client, and he loves Nadal. He loves Nadal, the tennis player. He loves the watches that we make for Nadal. But he only appeared as a client in the kind of 27 0 4 Nadal era. And Nadal watches went back 12 years before that.
So he wanted to buy every one of them, but he didn't know where to buy them.
your first port of call could be an auction house, but that [00:29:00] doesn't always come with any certainty, always in terms of, is this watch stolen? Has the watch been serviced by someone else, who doesn't know what they're doing? Are the screws original? What, what's been tampered with and what hasn't been tampered with?
And, we wanted to give that. Level of certainty to some of those clients that wanted to have the historical watches. And we also wanted to service the clients that hadn't been able to get a Richard Meal watch or, and clients that then wanted to bring a watch back, sell it back to us, and buy a new watch.
And then what do we do with that watch? So we said, okay, let's start nine t. And. And, we started that in London and now, we've got one in Geneva and we'll shortly open one in the Middle East. So it works really well and it gives the clients a kind of level of [00:30:00] confidence, to know that the watch they're buying, historical watch they're buying, whether it's his historical only two years ago or historical 20 years ago, it gives them a feeling of.
Confidence that what they're getting is the real thing. And the watch, all the watches go to the factory. They're all checked. They're, we see stolen watches, for example, in, in big traditional auction houses, which is unbelievable.
Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, that's,that's really quite scary. because you would imagine that they would have authenticity checks that would rule out such a, such an occurrence. But, I don't wanna cast dispersions at this point, of course, but, how much work do you have to do to, to stay on top of, the stolen watch situation? I.
Peter Harrison: It's, it's, we have to do quite a lot. It's pretty complicated. it's a high value asset for a lot of people. The watches, invariably come back at some point, into the store, whether it's for a new strap or service or. Whatever it happens to be, and [00:31:00] mostly by very innocent people that have been duped by websites, by other channels of reselling the watches that don't need to check for provenance.
And then we've got this long list. We will explain to the client that you're afraid your watch is on the stolen list. Here's a police report, and now we are gonna have to call the police.
Robin Swithinbank: That's an unpleasant conversation to have no doubt. and, yeah, as I understand it, you guys, have a pretty thorough operation when it comes to dealing with these things. as indeed you have to, as the value of these pieces is so high. And perhaps, I suppose that helps explain why people are coming to 90 and when they're looking at pre-end meal watches that have been authenticated, they are. ready to pay a premium. As we understand it. Some of your watches go for a significant amount more, on the pre-owned market than they would do at retail.
Peter Harrison: Yeah. it's just a supply and demand thing. we say this is what we want to try and make, we try and [00:32:00] make that amount of watches and the demand is much greater. And the, for, there's a premium on the secondary market. And,Some watches come on a premium, some don't, but it's,it, I think it gives a level of confidence to the client.
Do they see that, we're not making, more than, it goes back to your other question, would we be comfortable in a group because they would certainly make the production match the demand.
David Sadigh: Peter, it seems that, you guys really have your own playbook. you do quite a lot of things differently and you have been highlighting. Some of those point of like differences through the conversation. one question we have is related to the major watch fair and watches and wonders.
More specifically. We have seen watches and wonder growing in the last couple of years. Rolex Patek shopper now, join, but there are a couple of brands that are missing and one of the notable one is how come.
Peter Harrison: the first reason was we sat down five years [00:33:00] ago, Richard and I and some of the other partners, and we said, okay, what's it all about for us? Who are we servicing here in this five day? Hell hole. And,who's getting the most enjoyment. our clients hated it. Absolutely hated it.
the press that we spoke to, it was terrible. I'm not talking about of Robin, but the press that I met that, there was this herded, like sheep from one stand to another stand. You couldn't have 10% of the conversation we are having with the press if you wanted to.
And often I got valuable feedback from members of the press on what we were doing right and what we were doing wrong, and you couldn't have that conversation in that environment. So we said, okay, we're going down this route of our own only having our own stores. We don't need to have that interaction with multiple retailers.
'cause basically I'm sitting both sides of [00:34:00] the desk. I'm sitting on one side buying the watches from the factory and I'm sitting on the other side buying them for my own stores, which I had several by then. So we decided, okay, we're not gonna have multi-brand retailers. We're gonna have our own stores.
So in that case, why do we need the watch fair? Because, if you go back 300 years to how Geneva, where people made their watches up in the mountains above their cows in the winter, and then in the spring brought them down to the city to sell their watches, and that turned into the Basel Fair.
Eventually, we had no real. Requirement for that anymore.
Robin Swithinbank: I can see there's a question of relevance for brands that, manage a hundred percent of their retail,
Peter Harrison: and that aren't selling to retailers in the way
Robin Swithinbank: that Rolex and Patek will be, for example. But, I suppose there's also a question of the parts that each brand plays in a bigger ecosystem. Do you feel as Rashad Mill that you are part of the watch industry? Or do you actually feel slightly,as though you're running alongside it with a [00:35:00] slightly different proposition, a different business model, different clientele perhaps.
Peter Harrison: Yeah, me personally and I think Richard as well, I can talk on behalf of him in this respect. We never looked over our shoulder at what other watch brands were doing. We were looking at the art market. Art collectors. We were looking at the car market, car collectors. We were looking in a much more broader luxury term at people with a very high disposable income and what they were looking for when it came to a watch.
we never set out to make watches at. A certain price point I'll tell you one short story 'cause I know I'm taking your time here, but I met a very interesting Asian client in the watches and Wonders five years ago.
And I was talking to her and we'd just launched, it was our last year in the watches and Wonders and we'd just launched our candy collection, our women's candy collection. And I was talking to her and she said, oh, I come, I love it. I'll [00:36:00] buy three watches today. this one, and this one. And I was like, oh, that's great.
Thank you very much. but can I ask you what's your, what's the background? why do you love Richard Mill? And she said, listen, I've just come from Paris. I only buy couture. And when I go to Paris and buy couture, I go Autumn for the spring season and spring for the autumn season.
And all my dresses are made for me. And I'll buy 30 per season, so 60 in total. And I buy, I go like that because I live in Hong Kong and I have a lot of functions to go to and I don't wanna walk into a room. And see someone in the same dress as me. I want to know that when I walk into that room, I'll be the only one in that dress.
And she said, that's why I buy Richard Mill. And this had this amazing light bulb moment because for me, it was like, gosh, yeah, [00:37:00] I can see that. That's she doesn't wanna be part of the flock because. She's confident enough and clever enough, and a bright, intelligent, well-read, particularly rich woman.
She buys her clothes couture. She's spending $6 million on her couture dresses a year, and she's buying watches for a fraction of that, but gives her the same feeling of she knows she buys that watch. She couldn't wear it for a season, she guaranteed not to bump into anyone else but using that watch. And I think going back to what you were asking me, that's much more interesting for us than what other brands are doing.
should we make it in steel and gold? Should we just make it in gold? Do we need to add, I mean,it's irrelevant, business.
Robin Swithinbank: that, and I think it leads me to what must become the last question as we have talked for a long time, which is about direction and what you focus on next. we've seen that, you have this, extraordinary level of exclusivity. You have very high levels of innovation in the [00:38:00] product. and then you have,these partnerships in Formula One, particularly, which are hugely powerful.
Peter Harrison: is the alchemy in those three things or are there other areas of the business in on which you are focusing, which will help you deliver growth, in the future?
We were super interested in the arts,and developing our relationship with. Some artists, I think it's important. we'll keep, of course, we'll keep the DNA brand partnerships we've had for years with Formula One. but, for me, the development, the opportunities to meet new clients, talk to new clients.
There were plenty of them. We haven't touched a fraction of. The clients that we know that are out there that would enjoy a Richard Mill, there's this awful thing in the luxury business, this threshold problem for people. When you are standing in front of a store and you want to go in and buy a handbag, they're gonna tell you've got no history with us.
You're not getting that hat back. And so that it doesn't matter how successful are, [00:39:00] whether you've got a waste management system in the south of France that is hugely successful and you really wanna reward yourself with a Richard Mill, but you don't wanna walk through the door because there's this sort of threshold problem you might have, you don't know anyone.
In waste management. Perhaps you're the only one in the south of France with a successful waste management business and maybe none of them have got a Richard Mill and you dunno how to talk to, and you feel you need to connect with someone in order to have that relationship. And that's always been for me.
perhaps 'cause I'm self-made as well. I always. want to, I want to have that confidence that, to walk into somewhere where people will wanna receive me nicely. And I think that's something we talk about every day in the business is that, we need to encourage everyone to come in, even if it's just for a conversation and to start a relationship in.
In terms of a mutual love of waste management or whatever it happens to be, the arts or something, and not have people frightened [00:40:00] of, of coming into a Richard Meal store and being interested and being educated by our staff on what we're doing and what could be interesting for them.
So that's, I'd say that's a big focus for us.
Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, overcoming the fear of threshold is a luxury wide problem, of course,
Peter Harrison: Yeah.
Robin Swithinbank: particularly when your average price point is over 270,000 Swiss francs. But look, Peter, we must, uh, bring it to a close there. It's been a thrill to have you on the Luxury Society Podcast and to hear more about a brand that has in double quick time created a template from. Modern, high-end luxury. I'm not sure you need it, but, very best of luck with the brand's next chapter, and thank you so much for joining us.
Peter Harrison: Thank
you. It's been very therapeutic. Thank you
David Sadigh: Thank, thank you, Peter.
Peter Harrison: Bye bye
Robin Swithinbank: so David, as Peter said to us after the recording ended, he doesn't often get in front of the mic and open up about the Richard Mille business, and yet that was an enjoyably open conversation.
David Sadigh: Indeed.
Robin Swithinbank: I think from my part, that's one of those people who counts numbers. One of the things that I was really interested [00:41:00] to hear was confirmation of around 6,000 watches a year with an average price point of more than 270,000 Swiss francs.
Astonishingly high. That would mean revenues in excess of 1.6 billion Swiss francs. Now, just for context and help position this figure, and if we assume that Morgan Stanley's estimates are accurate, of course that's more than three times Hub low, and it's roughly what you'd get if you lump together the revenues of Tag j Ku and I wc, which is mind blowing really when you think about the fact that each of those companies is considerably older than Resha Mill.
Anyway, I could have stayed on the line pinging questions at him for another half an hour or so without batting an island, but, what did you make of it?
David Sadigh: No, I think as far as the number is concerned, we have to keep in mind the fact that their distribution structure is a bit different, from the one that is like fully owned by the group. So indeed, in term of retail value, that seems to be correct. The 1.6. Million. Now, this doesn't mean this is the revenue of Char Mill, per se, as the distribution is not fully owned and it's a kind of chain ventures that they have with different businesses, but I agree with, it's, [00:42:00] it's impressive, look on my side.
I was like, quite impressed by the numbers as well. if you think about it, there are not so many companies in the luxury category, and especially in the watchmaking field, that manage to go from zero to one or 2 billion in revenue. And I think the only case we have been like seeing lately is Apple with the Apple Watch.
But basically there is no other brand than Apple that managed to generate this tremendous level of sales in just a short period of time. And one could argue that, oh, this is maybe the chance or part of the chance, and they were lucky and so on. But in fact, I think Peter. Was,explicit in the fact that there were like many ingredients, that were like, present in the right context that allow them to be that successful.
And I think one of them is really this shift in term of wealth and generational wealth with,old money moving and transitioning to, new money. And,with new generation of very wealthy customers coming from private equity, coming from like [00:43:00] sports celebrities and so on, willing to embrace a different perspective and maybe a different DNA than the ones, emanating from the, let's say more traditional Swiss luxury brands.
What do you think?
Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I think that's very astute and actually I, this whole business of how much the watches cost and who can afford them is also indicative of the price elasticity at the high end of the market as far as I can work out, that remains as fluid in that part of the market as anywhere. If not, it might be the only part of the market where price elasticity is still so fluid.
I mean there seems to be no price ceiling for hel meal watches. I dunno the takeout, but it's pretty safe to assume from what Peter was saying, that when in April Hel meal introduced the RM 75 0 1. it's a tree of highly limited pieces that the, with prices soaring through $2 million a pop.
wildly expensive watches. But I would assume, from what Peter was saying, they've not had any problem shifting them. Now this is of course in stark contrast to some of the mid-market brand experiences at the moment, particularly when they put out limited edition [00:44:00] watches. They can gather dust on the shelves for months before they sell through, whereas there seems to be, much higher demand than,than supply when it comes to RHEL meal watches, which at that price point is what's quite staggering.
but I think what it does illustrate is that if we didn't know it already, it's very clear that the market dynamics are completely different at the high end, to the low end of the market at the moment.
David Sadigh: And especially due to the fact that, they manage, AMI has been able to really control the balance between the offer and the demand. and I think they managed to nail that in a very subtle way. as you said, not being part of a group means less pressure, less willingness to say we have to increase margin and increase the number of pieces we produce early, and so on.
So this give them like a competitive edge in the sense that they can really think about their long term view. And we have been hearing that and from terrorist return at Patek from and so on, saying that this position, family owned position, allow us to be more sustainable in the way we approach. our growth.
And the other element I think that was [00:45:00] quite interesting is the control of the CPO market. Huh? By, by controlling the CPO market and especially in a market where people are quite kind of scared of buying a potentially stolen rish mill coming with this element of reassurance and ensuring that customers can,yeah, be ensure that the watch they are acquiring is a genuine watch, but also a watch that is fully legitimate.
I think this probably had them. In better controlling the secondary market prices, which at the end of the day is paying off not only in term of brand de their ability, but also in their ability to control their retail prices.
Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. very much and you mentioned stolen watches and, It's a huge problem for a brand like RHA Meal where the product is worth,well, where it's worth so much more than it is for almost any other watch brand on the planet. and my understanding is having spoken to people behind the scenes at Richard Mille that, they have a very thorough, operation, which is tasked almost exclusively with. not just establishing whether or not a watch is stolen, but also whether or not the consumer behind it. The [00:46:00] guy who walks into the store is in fact looking to launder money. And this is the sort of problem that you encounter when you are selling watches at a very high price point. So hel mills problems such as they are very real, but they're also very different to the problems that the majority of watch brands are currently facing. I wanted to touch on, what he said about Spain. this was a surprise to me. Spain is ranked by the Federation of the Swiss watch industry as its 12th largest export market.
So it's a big market, but not huge. I. Now, it surprised me a little that UB mill should be looking to the Iberian Peninsula for growth. But then actually in the brief window, since we recorded with Peter a few hours ago, the Madrid Grand Prix has been announced. that's a race that'll be held next September, replacing Mila, one of the sports traditional stomping grounds. Now, either that's glorious serendipity or it's an example of how behind the scenes. The likes of Rha Mill have used their leverage to crowbar a new race into the schedule, thereby creating this, inevitably a potentially hugely commercial opportunity in the Spanish [00:47:00] capital. I thought that was quite interesting too.
David Sadigh: No,I love it. I didn't know about the Madrid Grand Prix, but I'm not fully surprised. I think if you look at, Madrid right now, and to some extent Barcelona as well, you can see there is,Spanish flavor, around the world. it started couple of years back, lots of the, let's say, most awarded the chef and, fantastic cuisine, but also major soccer.
clubs and I would say like a major hype around Spain in general and, building or further building. The Spanish market for brands nowadays probably give access to, a lots of, different opportunities. it was also interesting, to see that, the king of, Spain was a client of, Hamill,
Robin Swithinbank: Well, he's a known, he's a known collector, I suppose,
and with the means to experiment with his connection, but yes, I appreciate what you're saying. You would imagine he would be into the more traditional watch brands.
David Sadigh: Absolutely. But speaking of King and Princess, one of the interesting element that I also noticed during the conversation is their clarity in really becoming like the Prince of Motorsport [00:48:00] first before trying to become the king of luxury watchmaking. And I think from a business strategy standpoint, it makes a lot of sense because obviously, a racing machine on the, on your wrist.
All the different, like marketing elements that they have been building makes the overall narrative extremely focused and extremely relevant from like the umbrella positioning to the product that they have been designing. And once again,the fact that he mentioned that they started by displaying the prices, on the print ad, I think that was also something clever.
Robin Swithinbank: Yes, I agree. and they've been very consistent in their approach too. And consistency is a, an attribute that's often commended to luxury brands and to brands of any description. But it's not always something that's easy to work out in your strategy. the climate changes,your budget changes. but RHA Mill has been very consistent and been in the sport for 20 plus years now. Felipe Masser was their first ambassador instantly and, did a huge amount to amplify the position of the brand.
David Sadigh: and by the way, Robin, what did you [00:49:00] think of the watch fair part?
Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I'm quite sensitive about all of that. For some reason,I would never describe any of the watch fairs as a hell whole, personally. I've always rather enjoyed them. I think they're
an integral part of this, of this industry. and I think that,I don't wanna sound like a sort of nagging parent or something, but I was a bit disappointed by his remarks. On the watch fairs. Now, RHA Mill hasn't appeared at a watch fair since 2019. he was talking about five years ago. So the last time that, RHA Mill appeared a fair was, at the now defunct, SIHH, the same year incidentally, that audemars piguet last attended a watch Fair. And logically I get the reasoning.
I really do. I understand that they're not selling to retailers. I understand they want to have a much more direct relationship with their customer, with the press, people like me. but even in its singularity and in this singular approach that it has, I. Isha Mill is still part of a much larger ecosystem that it's benefited from enormously over the past 25 years, and longer.
In fact, if you think about Al's background in the industry, himself and I mean, I'd like to [00:50:00] suggest that it has a duty of care to help amplify that industry in any way. It can. the comparisons have to be drawn with Rolex and Patek. they don't need to be there technically. I don't think it would harm their sales or their brand equity if they weren't, at a watch fair. but they are there and they're raising the core temperature, of an industry that has this pretty weird monoculture through its Swiss dominance. and at its best, I think watches and wonders now as the dominant show. it makes the industry more symbiotic and more effective. so personally I'd still love to see Rashad Mill back, to watch Fair App watches and Wonders. and I'd say the same of AP and I'd say the same of Swatch Group, which I think needs it more than Rashad Mill. and as an addendum, I'd be very surprised if we don't see Breitling and its Revival brands, universal, geneve and Gey back at the show next year.
David Sadigh: I'm with you. and I'm fully in line on the fact that this, could, help in threatening the Swiss watch industry. now as far as the volume are concerned, you mentioned the numbers, right? It's 6,000 pieces per year, so it's a total [00:51:00] different ball game compared to the other players.
So I can also understand that, from a purely commercial standpoint with 6,000 watches. Available per year only. they probably have other opportunities and other way of
selling
Robin Swithinbank: clearly. No. No doubt. That's why I understand that. the logic behind this, and I'm not, I can't challenge that for a moment.
David Sadigh: One of the things that I feel we didn't cover, and to me it's probably like the first key factor of success of this brand is how disruptive their design were and how highly recognizable it was. I remember,talking to a friend in the industry who was telling me, do you know why there are so many Isha mill around in south countries?
Because people wear short sleeves and you can recognize them like, from 100 metal. so it's like a design that is like so disruptive and so different, from the traditional, let's say watch design that, indeed when you like,wear short sleeves, when you evolve in a, let's say, more casual type of setting, people can still recognize that, you are like a [00:52:00] wealthy, influential individual.
thanks to your watch.
Robin Swithinbank: Yes, there's no question that the power of status has had a huge impact on the success of Al Meal. It is a status symbol, perhaps above and beyond anything else? look, David, it's June. we're both wearing short sleeve shirts, but neither of us is wearing a Al Meal unfortunately.
But, fun talking with you as always. Let's leave it there and make way for Benet and on the download.
David Sadigh: Thank you Robin. And you know what? I'm pretty sure that, if our podcast, audience is continuing to grow in the years to come, apparently we're already part of the top 10 or 15% of the most recent business podcast. So maybe one day you two and maybe myself as well, will get.
Robin Swithinbank: I'm gonna correct that because actually we're top 10% of all the world's podcasts, not
David Sadigh: Okay.
Okay.
Robin Swithinbank: thank you to our audience for listening. And, and yes, if you'd like to contribute to, oh no, let's not go there. thanks David. talk to.
Robin Swithinbank: okay, so moving on. Let's bring in Benedict SA Terrace, d G's partner and international client director for on the download. Benett. Great to see you. how are you?[00:53:00]
Benedicte Soteras: Hi everybody. I'm great and it's lovely to be back.
2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: So what have you got for us this time?
Benedicte Soteras: Okay, so we are going to dive into Ritual Mill's exceptional online performance here to date, the brand is absolutely crushing it at the moment. While other luxury brands are struggling. I.
2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Yeah, Peter was pretty clear that demand still outstrips supply. The question is, does the data give that some credence?
Benedicte Soteras: It certainly points to it. What's striking is the scale of the growth momentum, Richard Mille achieved plus 21% year over year search growth in between January and April, 2025 versus the same period last year, reaching approximately 11 million total global searches over four months,
Significantly outpacing overall industry averages, which are around like 1% growth year over year. And they're also outpacing competitors with similar surge volumes like Tag heuer who are at, 6% I WC at 3% and Brightling, which is [00:54:00] even down 5%.
2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: And is all this coming from established markets, the us, Europe, and so on.
Benedicte Soteras: Not at all. Actually, most of Richard Mille like top 10 growth markets over the January to April 20, 25 period are emerging economies. India leads with 151% growth with million searches followed by Argentina at plus 81%, Brazil at 69%, and Nigeria at plus 63%.
2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: With Peter, we touched on the brand's relationship with Formula One and how that has accelerated the brand's performance over the years. Is Formula One still proving a useful amplification tool for Rashad Mill?
Benedicte Soteras: Absolutely, and the timing couldn't be better. McLaren, which is sponsored by Rich, as you know, is leading the championship, which gives them maximum visibility. Plus they've got partnership with Ferrari drivers such as Le Hamilton and Charlotte Clare, who combine have over 50 million social media followers.
And what's [00:55:00] particularly clever is how this F1 ecosystem aligns perfectly with their growth market. Everyone's expansion into India and the Middle East coincide exactly with where they're seeing explosive demand for the brand.
2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Yeah, I'm sure that's no coincidence. Much like the announcement of the Madrid Grand Prix, just as hel Mer is looking to expand into Spain, you mentioned social media. How are they performing on Instagram?
Benedicte Soteras: they're outperforming many luxury watch brand. in terms of engagement rate, they're at 0.77% engagement rate.
2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Okay. What does that mean? Or at least give us some kind of context.
Benedicte Soteras: So engagement rate is a metric very much using social media. It's basically dividing the total number of engagement likes common shares by the total number of followers that you have, and then you multiply by a hundred. So when you compare. Richard Mill, 0.77%.
It's more than three times higher than Rolex at zero point 25% and nearly double omegas at zero point 33% in the top 20 [00:56:00] most engaged luxury watch post between January and May, 2025. Richard Mill actually secured two spots while tag Euro and Rolex dominate with respectively eight and five posts in the top 20.
And going back to Rachel Bill, important to note that those two posts that made it to the top 20 are F1 related and featuring Charles Leclerc and Lewis Hamilton.
2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Yeah, I think that's no surprise. Is it? as results of all the hallmarks of a successful campaign leveraging. Formula One, as we discussed in episode one of the Luxury Society Podcast with Tag Heuer, chief Executive Antoine Pin. F1 is now the world's most followed sports series and, it's a huge amplifier for brands.
So I'm not surprised to hear that well look bene astute, revealing insights as always, the Richard Mille story showing no signs of moving outta the fast lane. we'll catch you on the next download.
Benedicte Soteras: My pleasure. Thanks Robin.
Robin Swithinbank: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget [00:57:00] to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now.
I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.