Second coming: Ben Clymer on why he returned to Hodinkee

For the final episode of Season 1, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh welcome Ben Clymer, founder and returning president of Hodinkee, the trailblazing platform that reshaped the way the world talks, and shops, for watches. Once hailed by the Wall Street Journal as “the closest thing the watch industry has to a celebrity,” Ben opens up about why he’s back at the helm after a four-year hiatus and what’s next for both Hodinkee and the watch world.

From Rolex realities and secondary market inflation to luxury media's evolving role, Ben’s candid insights are a must-listen for anyone interested in horology, branding or building a legacy.

Also in this episode:

• On the Download returns with Benedicte Soteras, unpacking the GLOW Index, DLG’s new metric for tracking how effectively luxury brands leverage newness in China.
• And Max Peiro of Re-Hub, a DLG (Digital Luxury Group) Company takes us through China's shopping festival fatigue—and how luxury brands must now rethink their calendar playbooks.

Brought to you by https://digitalluxurygroup.com/

Follow us @digitalluxurygroup & @robin_swithinbank on Instagram

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025 www.fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

DLG ep 12 intro outro

 [00:00:00] 

Robin Swithinbank: Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swithibank. 

Bank 

David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh. Luxury never sleeps, although it does tend to find its way to a Sun lounge during the Tuscan Hills over the summer. So this episode will wrap season one of the Luxury Society Podcast.

Robin Swithinbank: We'll be back with our shirts tucked in come September to round this season off. David and I lined up an interview with a giant of 21st century luxury watchmaking. While he's not a watchmaker himself, Ben Kleer and his He Key project have reshaped the watch industry, turning regular folk into watch, guys and gals, with a compelling cocktail of editorial smarts, a healthy dose of celebrity, and somehow not taking any of it too seriously.

It's not all been smooth running for the company. Once valued at a hundred million dollars, and that counted Tom Brady and John Mayer among its investors. But with Ben, back at the helm of the company he founded 17 years ago, is this Hodinkee Steve Jobs moment. A new chapter Dawns for the world's most read and most watched, watched [00:01:00] platform.

Later in the episode, max Peru and Benedict C Return with a raft of data-driven insights to look at how Chinese shopping festivals frame the luxury calendar and whether the newness and novelty actually plump up brand revenues. All that to come, but for now, David, on with the show. 

David Sadigh: Let's do it. 

Robin Swithinbank: So for this final episode in season one of the Luxury Society Podcast for David and me, it is our distinct pleasure to welcome Ben Klier. Ben is the founder and president of Hodinkee, a company. He initially started from his boo at UBS. In 2008, Ben found room for distraction from the world of high finance and began writing what were then daily blog posts about fine watchmaking.

His discipline and clear natural affinity for the category was soon rewarded. Heinke would become one of the most trusted voices in watch culture, with a highly engaged, often very vocal global community every month, tapping millions of collectors, enthusiasts, and horological [00:02:00] neophytes. Meantime, Heinke would develop a powerful e-commerce platform too, leading to several rounds of investment that around the 10 of this decade, gave it a reported valuation of a hundred million dollars.

Ben took a step back from the day-to-day running of the business shortly after that, but late last year, hed, inky was acquired by the watches of Switzerland Group and he returned to the 12 o'clock position to helm the company after four years away. Ben joins us now from his home in New York. Ben, you and I have known each other for most of the head inky journey, and I've gotta say, I've been looking forward to this conversation enormously.

Thanks so much for coming on the Luxury Society Podcast. How are you?

Ben Clymer: I'm doing great. it's a great pleasure to be here at 7 36 in the morning, local time.

Robin Swithinbank: Bright and breezy. Alright, let's talk about what is at 7:36 AM in the morning. Well, look, first question, as I just said, you had this four year break from running heading Hodinkee. You've come back, why?

Ben Clymer: Well, I, there's many reasons I think in many ways, a lot of things that I wanted to do were never done. And so when I stepped down from the business as [00:03:00] CEO , in, I guess. I had this plan in place that I thought would really revolutionize so many things about watches, and that included certainly media, which I think it's fair to say we'd already done,in many ways e-commerce for sure. We were the first and largest e-commerce, pure player globally. but I wanted to revolutionize other parts of it, really legacy parts of it, parts that hadn't been really touched in. And when I stepped down, we had a plan in place and we were able to raise our series B based on these plans. And then the world changed, and the world changed in, in many ways. obviously COVID was the driving force behind those changes. But the world switched to a priority on pre-owned watches. and, all the mainstream media,present. Included, sometimes excluded other times, focused on what was happening with secondary watch prices. And that is a bigger part of the watch world, but it's not the part of the watch world that really fascinates me, or fascinated me at the time and frankly is still not the part of the world that I think is the most compelling from a business perspective.

anybody. That buys and sells [00:04:00] watches. Like there, there's no barrier to entry at all. And this is a true story. I was out to dinner at a nice restaurant last night with my family and, early dinner because we've got young kids and the waiter comes up to me at the end of it after repair.

Bill said, I just wanna let you know, I'm such a big fan. I love Hodinkee. I've been following for so many years, and I said, respectfully, in, in a funny way, how old are you? He said, well, I'm 20. And I said, so you've been following this for how long? since you're three. And he's a young guy and obviously a very capable, smart young guy.

And he's now a watch trader up here in upstate New York. And he buys and sells watches. He's got a TikTok account, he's got an Instagram account. He's 20 years old. And the waiter at this nice restaurant in town. And I think, obviously he's very much not an authorized dealer, very much has no relationship with watch brands. But that's you down. Way that retail and other things were done on the new side of the business, which again,is a more interesting side in, from my perspective. and, and then things changed and, when I was up here getting married and having kids and, being a dad,the focus of Hodinkee and frankly many other [00:05:00] platforms moved onto pre-owned watches.

Was something that, I thought we didn't necessarily need to do, but I understood why we were doing it at the time because it, that's where the world was focused. So I came back for a, to be frank, I don't feel I have much left to prove, but I did feel that there was a lot left to be done on the table for Hodinkee, for the industry at large. Because in many ways the industry moves so far forward in terms of scale, in terms of visibility, in terms of awareness during COVID, but moved so far backwards in the way that it, approached, clienting and services to its consumers, right? The Swiss, and God loved them, during COVID became more sure of themselves, they became more confident that people needed watches, when in fact nobody watch. So. In many cases, and look, there are certain brands that deserve to be arrogant, Rolex, Patek, AP at times, Richard Meal, et cetera, et cetera. but we saw arrogance from brands that really had no reason to be arrogant at all, because they were making products that, that were really me too products and they were being successful based on the [00:06:00] backs of unavailability of Rolex. so, you know, as I. I said, you know the time. And so that is effectively why I'm back. And that coupled with the fact that I've known Brian and David, I've watched the Switzerland for 10 plus years. I was, their first call when they came, before they came into the us they said, is there an opportunity here? I said, oh my God. Of course there is.

Robin Swithinbank: the US is such a stable and growing market. so yeah, so I'm back to, to have fun, to, to work with guys that I trust and love and get the beauty of watches. Uh.My goodness me. There's a lot in that answer. no. Great opening gambit. I mean, we've,we've talked about pre, you've talked about watches of Switzerland. I mean, I,the challenge becomes which direction to take the conversation in. you are now this conduit to watches of Switzerland.

if I go into your shop,on your website and I hit Rado or restaurant or Patek or Porsche Design, I get redirected to, to watch the Switzerland's website. Where of course, what, five years ago, as you said, you were this huge online [00:07:00] e-commerce retailer of new watches. why did you decide to move out e-commerce new products then, particularly as you say,you're a huge fan of the primary market, and become an outlet for a international retailer instead.

Ben Clymer: Yeah, I mean, to be very blunt. I think, to be honest with you, we had acquired a business called Crown and Caliber that became, an anchor for the business. and not an anchor in a good sense. and so, we had, a lot of liabilities tied to Crown and Caliber that were really significant. and so when the private equity owners of Hodinkee, drafted me back in about a year plus ago, it was really up to me to solve a lot of problems and solving those problems in many cases meant paying down some debts, figuring out how to get the thing EBITDA positive, as quickly as possible. to migrate joy. We were able to do that, but that came with some sacrifices. And I think for me it was about refocusing the business onto inventory light, highly profitable, highly specialized services. And so when I looked at what the business had become in my absence as the CEO, and to be clear, I was always there as a board member and chairman. it really became inventory [00:08:00] heavy and not specialized on the commercial side. So our limited editions were highly special. That will always be special. But we were selling used Rolexes and they were certified by chronic caliber, but they weren't certified by Rolex. and we were selling. Generalized tag Heuer and omegas and products that you could get, frankly, on their websites or on watches Switzerland com or on buer com or wherever. And I said, man, this just doesn't feel like us at all. And so I said, as I looked at the overhead of the business and the margin structure of the business and what I saw as our, kind of special sauce in many ways it wasn't of that. Wipe the whole thing clean and start over. And that's what we did. and so Hodinkee now we still do our limited editions, and you'll see some amazing things coming over the next 18 months or so. we are a traditional media business, and I will say, look, an ounce of vanity, like nobody has a better audience, a more active buying audience in the watch community than us and sos. [00:09:00] On what we do best and we double down on editorial. We moved James Stacey, who's been a long time kind of journeyman with us at Hodinkee into an editor in chief role who's done an amazing job. We brought back a guy named Dave O'Hara, who was number two at video for us, left to go do something else, and we brought him back as our number one in video. So in many ways, like assembling, the, the all stars,of the content scene back together, to really do this thing. And of course, day involvement is, I don't wanna oversell, my value, but I think it's important to have it have me around when we're talking about content creation and brand definition of, but also the industry large.and so, again, down to its core and get it lean and mean, and that's where we are today.

Robin Swithinbank: Did Hodinkee get too big?

Ben Clymer: Yeah, I would say it did, I think there was a period there where we were over 150 employees and that was to be clear, never my ambition. I think, I've known both of you guys a long time. My ambition was really just to have fun and do cool stuff. the idea of making money that came later. but yeah, I think 150 people was probably too [00:10:00] large for what. I saw, but to be clear, like I wasn't the only stakeholder, shareholder or voice around the table. And, but that's okay. That's all part of, that's all.

Robin Swithinbank: let's look back a little bit if we can, and we talked a lot about the present, but,going back to the early days, going back to the 2010s, which in many ways were peak, not just for hinky, but for large sways of the, of the industry. you're not short of your 20th anniversary, which is a frightening thing to say, and it's probably a frightening thing to hear.

but if we were to pick out three of the really good decisions that you made for the business in that first sort of five or 10 years, what would you, uh, what would you pick out?

Ben Clymer: Yeah. Well, I mean,starting it, first of all,that was something that like when I left UBS to go write a watch blog, my parents were, you know, said something to the tune of like, what the are you doing? and like, how will you pay for, healthcare?

And,I was 24, 25 and I said, look like I'm just gonna do this.

And if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But, to be clear, when I started, it was really my ambition was to be a Robin. I really wanted to be a journalist. And so I had done some freelance work for gq, for Esquire here in the US for, I did how to spend it briefly, Forbes, some great places.

But I made di [00:11:00] minimis, like basically nothing. And in exchange I said, Hey, will you link back to Hodinkee? and so based on Hodinkee and these various freelance gigs, I ended up going to journalism school, went to journalism school in New York. Decision number one was to do that, that I'm proud, no regret.

And while journalism. great coverage. I was, in fact, even on the cover of Con Nast Traveler in the uk. pretty wild things. And when I graduated from Columbia Journalism School, I said, you know what? All my classmates are going into Con Nast, Hearst, New York Times ft. I'm gonna keep on sticking with Hodinkee.

And the business was profitable, but barely. it was not a lucrative business at all. And I think, many people would've just stopped right there because I did have potential job offers at Forbes and, Et cetera of the world. so doing that, and then as I graduated from Columbia, I launched e-commerce.

So I launched e-commerce in 2012. and that was straps and accessories. And that was a really early move for anybody to go into content and commerce. That was [00:12:00] before Shopify went public by a factor of four years. I got to know. Toby and Harley, who I'm still friends with, who are,the founder and CE of Shopify. around when we did our first e-commerce experience that John Mayer reached out. he just said, Hey, big of what you're doing, we love to get involved. So obviously became, good friends with him over time. brought him on, the big thing that I would say probably changed us from a global perception, well, well, there were two. In 2013 we did our first episode of Talking Watches with John Mayer, which has become, the number one kind of, series about watches in, in the world, on YouTube. Hundreds of millions of views. and then that same year, time Magazine named us one of the 50 best websites in the world, like not 50 best watch. Around then, 2013, 2014, we had a big media group in New York come along and, Hodinkee was making about a million bucks a year in sales, in revenue. Highly profitable because it was me and two guys basically. and we had a really good following, and so a big group in New York said, Hey, we wanna buy you, we want you to come in and lead, the young men's group. [00:13:00] And we got really to the finish line, and it was a guy named Tony Fidel, who's a well-known guy, he was at Apple for iPhone and iPod, and then sold Nest to Google for, a few billion bucks. We didn't really talk and watch this together and he said, dude, do not sell this business.

Like you are gonna be so regretful if you sell this thing now to a big media group that's on its way down anyway. Help you raise money. And so in 14,015, I hit the road to raise money and Tony Fidel, John Mayer, Google Ventures, true Ventures, Kevin Rose, who's also a Wellknown guy, all put in a little bit of capital.

We, we raised money and kind of went off to the race and that allowed me to hire, to go from three people to 10 people. Kevin came into New York and helped me build a tech stack, so. Nothing else. Our CMS is customer insurance, is all that stuff is. and.

David Sadigh: It seems indeed that it has been like, quite an exciting journey with lots of [00:14:00] challenges, opportunities and so on. I remember quite well, in fact, when we met around 2009, 2010, around the World Watch report at that time, some of you like, became quite well known afterwards.

Uh, IL Ro ended up becoming like a president and c of Cartier, Ben Richard journey at, at a dinky. And I also remember, being like a big fan of a dinky and having followed like the overall journey, I remember some important pieces of journalism, and of video as well that,you guys created.

I remember this, 2013, Philip before wrote to Basel. Where you guys immersed us into the whimsical, journey of this legendary watchmaker for the people listening to us. I think that's if you like watches, you should go back to this piece of 2013 where Ben and his team went to a Philip before. And I remember that at that time you guys were a bit like, not only the witness, but a bit the influencer of this new generation, right, of the millennials of today. my question is do you [00:15:00] really think that it's possible to remain relevant towards the next generation through a dinky.

Ben Clymer: I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe that. and I,I think that there's no question about it, that there are challenges, but that's what I live for at this point. this is where I am in my life where it's like, I wanna, try new things and I again, like I could have gone. Back and started my own thing again, or worked for another company. But Hodinkee is still without a doubt, the most influential platform in watches. And I think if you look at like influencers, like traditional influencers on TikTok, et cetera, there's no question that they have major influence over the forthcoming generation of buyers. But if you look at the average buyer and the people that are spending the most money with watch brands today, Hodinkee is still the number one source by a factor of a hundred. There's no, and we validated that with brands. We validated that with watches of Switzerland. We validated that with our own internal,kinda research.

I will say, I, I am shocked at, I was the young, I'm very American, as you can see. I do not speak French. I was always the outsider, and that is, I think, what made Hodinkee work, right? I, both my parents were public school teachers. I did not grow up in this space at [00:16:00] all, whereas most people in this space did, or many people did. So I always viewed myself as the outsider. And then to now be viewed as, in many ways, the ultimate insider, even though I don't view myself at all, is shocking to me. And I think it's important that I remain really distant from Switzerland in many ways, to remain relevant. And I'll give you a fun braggy anecdote, but I was speaking at Harvard Business School probably a month ago.  My father loves ho dinky. I said, your father, what about you? and I was like, Jesus Christ, how old am I? And I realized that these MBA students were, and they're all like over intelligent, like almost too intelligent for their own good, ages 21 to 24, et cetera. So that their fathers are probably my age or maybe a. Andto be fair, there were a few Hodinkee fans as well, and otherwise I don't think it would've been there. But it's really pretty jarring. And that was the first time that I had people in Chorus say my father was a fan of Hodinkee. But I think that doesn't, I'm only 42 and the average [00:17:00] reader of Hodinkee is 40. Right? So the average reader of Ho Hodinkee is still very young and becoming. Emerging affluent, right? like when I started Hodinkee, we had kids reading it, of course, myself included. Now the people that are aging into their forties are now able to buy Pateks, they're able to buy longs and joins and et cetera. But to, to your original question, my great challenge to James Stacy, to Dave O'Hara, to a guy named Tim Jeffries, who's our associate editor. Become more relevant to that generation of people. And so look, we are acutely aware of our challenges in, in that category, and you'll see us do things that we wouldn't have done five or 10 years ago, but we're doing it now with the understanding that we have over the last 17 years of the building hard dinky into what it's today.

We're also doing with the awareness of what, we're friends with the mike. We're aware of what they're doing, but we also see the realities of the watch business. And I think Hodinkee has always spanned the primary markets, the brands, the consumers, the collectors, the retailers in a way that nobody else [00:18:00] has. And so right now we've got a young editor on our staff named 10 Tan Wang, who's I think 26. He was actually an intern for us. Super smart kid, real collector, but he's 26, so like he tells us what is going on with watches F 4 26, but he's a real collector as well, so he works with long and Patek for us. so we're trying to do everything all at once, but we're also realizing that like the future of media is vastly different than it was 10, 15 years ago. In particular in light of AI and like that is something that was like very, I wouldn't say jarring to me, but very enlightening to me. When I was up at Harvard, I met a professor who is very aware of Hodinkee and watches. He's written case studies on some watch brands and watch personalities in the past.

And he's the AI guy at hbs and he said, my prediction for Hodinkee in the next five years. There will be, make sure that nobody else create a bot. There'll be a climber bot. You bot the five, and your website will be places where you can meet, where one can meeter. And the human [00:19:00] touch, I think is what we're most about with Switzerland. AI takes over. I think the traditional influencers that we see now on TikTok cetera, will actually wane in influence, because they'll just be, anybody could create one, right? Rolex could their own bot that basically creatively pushes Rolex or whatever. But I think the idea of content creation is just gonna change rapidly. And so if you look at the grand scheme of things like the Hodinkee traditional digital media era is much longer and more robust, and certainly has solidified us in a way that like these creators have yet to really reach. and so as we all move into ai, that's, the fts of the world.

GQs of the world, rb.

Robin Swithinbank: no, it's good. It's good. I'm interested though to think a little bit more about content. [00:20:00] I think it's probably fair to say this and please do disagree with me if you think I've got this wildly wrong, but Hodinkee somehow seemed to intellectualize, watchmaking and watch collecting in particular in the 2010s.

the hinky guy was the guy who could reel off reference numbers. he was tracking the auction results. He had a view on everything. Of course. and would frequently say so in the comments. But looking at the site today, it's clearly, it feels more democratic. There's a heavier waiting given to the accessible sometimes for me at least.

I'm seeing watch brands on there, I've not come across before. and I was on your Instagram this morning, and Tanan, who you just mentioned is wearing a pair of, GShock Crocs. this is a very different story. This is very different sort of content to the, which Pex should you be buying at auction this week, kind of thing of 10 years ago?

What's,what's the thinking behind this?

Ben Clymer: to be frank, nothing has changed. we were doing silly stories like that in 20 10, 20 15. You just don't remember that because like the point of those stories are not to become defining Hodinkee stories, right? It is Philippe dufour, who, by the way, I'm still in touch with and I'm just, a super fan of his work. appreciate you remembering that video, because that was one of my favorite videos. we were always doing the [00:21:00] goofy, like we were all like one. I kid you not. When I applied to Columbia Journalism School, I sent them a video of me hitting, it was called a reactor Trident. It was supposed to be the most watch in the world with a hammer running it over with a Bentley, throwing it off the Highline Bridge here in New York.

So been doing that stuff. It's just that, today you happen to see that and remember that today. But we continue to do reference grade stories and if you go back and look at, what Rich Ford has done for us, what Tony Trane did for us, what James Stacy done has done on the Aquanauts and Nautilus over the world, like the reference stuff, it's still there. So we continue to do that and I think it's incumbent on us to continue to be the intellectual kind of. Gatekeeper of, of where watches are and where they're going. And so we still do that, but we're also doing stuff that will get people excited and 10 tens croc story is like peak millennial stuff, And Crocs are a whole other thing, and I guarantee you that, I can give you the numbers after the show, but I guarantee you that story probably performed better than anything. Is ky right? And I think that always grounds us like we're never too cool or too intellectual for anything. Like we're here to have a good time. [00:22:00] And if we can educate and inform people along the way, that's great. But I think entertainment is the third kind of tenet of that. And Tenin doing a story on these Crocs g shock collab, like that is pure entertainment and pure silliness.

And like watches should accept that. And I think, a chief complaint of the Swiss watch industry or about the Swiss watch industry is that it takes itself too seriously. And again, with a.

David Sadigh: I wanted to, go back to one point that you mentioned a bit earlier about the arrogance. And, maybe also the fact that, some brands managed to enter the market with a bit more humble, and I would say like accessible approach. I take the case for example, of one brand that, we have been partnering with, called Urban Organon. Obviously, like many of the people in the watch industry knows it. And it was a very old, exceptional Danish brand, with the full revival, brand revival, around it. we can feel now that there are like new players such as urban jurgensen and probably other brands as well, that are trying to take a bit of a different approach, to attract slash build their brand [00:23:00] momentum.

and the overall philosophy is a bit different from the existing players. Is it a trend that you see as well? how do you see this? I would say arrogance versus accessibility. element evolving. Is it really the new luxury we have been waiting for?

Ben Clymer: I don't know. I, urban jurgensen to me, and I've actually been meaning to ping them because I wasn't able to make it out to LA for the launch. to me, this is the most 360 complete launch of a brand I've ever seen, 

for a new brand. And granted that it's Zi Linein and the Rosenfelds and, people that are well known within the watch space. And with, with considerable means and considerable, experience in this space. So it's not like a total upstart thing, but the way that they've handled the approach of the launch has been incredible. I mean, really, as you say, like really different than anything else. And I think to, to many of the old guard, it's a little jarring. if it weren't the folks that I mentioned involved, I think there would be real kind about it. Objective, quality of the watch is just superlative. And as at the end of the day, I'm still just a watch guy. The product is   great. there's just no [00:24:00] question about that.

There's no question. And I think, where you start to get a little pushback from the old guard.

It is, most recently, and it was shared all over the web yesterday, urban Jurgen and I believe had a, a male ballet dancer in one of their And signal that challenging you. Crust, white straight man, that, that buys watches and that was, it was lambasted on social media yesterday.

I have a different opinion. It I idea people into. Know,I think they are an archetype for how a brand should be launched. I don't know how repeatable it is for most brands. I still think at the end of the day, you mentioned DU before, in many ways, like his kind of emotional success in many ways as Retab, they were both built on.

Technical prowess first, and then, the beauty of the product and then the personality and then the lore. And now they both have brands so to speak. But the product came first and Urban Jorgenson is one of the first that is doing brand and product at the [00:25:00] same time, at and at the same level.

And as you saw, I'm sure you guys are aware, I think Robin, you're probably there, you know the launch event had the Kardashians there. I can't remember the last time, ah, like having Zi line in and Kris Jenner in the same room is just like something that blows the mind. to be frank, the only people that would've done something like that in the past would've been us. And I remember we did a collector summit in 2015 and we had JJ Reddick, who's a basketball player. And Philippe two four in the same room. So we had NBA players and Philippe two four together in the same room, and it was just like mind blowing. And now to have a new brand like Urban Jergenson have, Kris Jenner there as well as many other celebrities is just amazing. So I give them incredible kudos for what they've done with that all while backing it up with great product. I think they should be studied and we'll look, we'll see how commercially viable. But they should be studied for somebody doing it really well. And I think, speaking of, the presumptively or the arrogance of certain brands, I just think you know the idea that any integrated steel sports watch would sell at all, let alone above retail, [00:26:00] I think is long gone.

And that was a really unhealthy aspect of watches for about, three or four years there.

Robin Swithinbank: Well, I, you mentioned celebrity and about having these, famous people in the room to talk about watches. One of the symptoms, of course, of herd inky success was that, you became a celebrity yourself.

you mentioned being on the cover of, of magazines and picked up by time and so on. your name became pretty much as famous as he's name. the Wall Street Journal only last year described you as, the closest thing the watch industry has to a celebrity. I dunno how we feel about that, but, tell us about the journey for you personally.

How has all of this sat with you? have you enjoyed it?

Ben Clymer: So look, like with everything, like sometimes yes, sometimes no. having been told that somebody really admires you or wants a selfie or really like you've inspired them. That feels incredible. Like how could it not? But I think, both of you probably know me well enough to know like I'm a pretty introverted, quiet guy.

I didn't ask for any of this stuff. And at. gave little toast or species or whatever. And,the one through line was like the idea from my family anyway, the idea that like this quiet kid [00:27:00] from upstate New York is now, the face of this brand industry, whatever, all over YouTube and has hundreds of millions of views and host with celebrities and all that is jarring to me.

and none of this comes to me naturally at all. the business side of it does, the content side of it does, but being well known and looked at is jarring at times. And with the good there is the bad. And, a lot of people have taken their shots at me, some of them fair, some of them certainly not. and that's okay. And I've just learned it's all part of being public in some, it's been wild, it's been a wild journey for me. I would say 85% of it, very good. 15% of it challenging, but in many cases just allowed me to become, a stronger, more well-rounded person.

I really feel very blessed to be in this position that I'm in right now to have a job with watches, which I really view as a great, powerful, important company in the space. while I still get to do what I love most, which is work with young guys to create content, about this category that I love.

David Sadigh: if I'm not mistaken, I think you, you met your wife at the office right?

Ben Clymer: I did, yeah, my, my wife and mother to my two children who is somewhere over there, Carra Barrett. she was one of [00:28:00] our first employees. And I think like the journey of hokey is such a special one and such a weird one to be frank, that I think, and I am such frankly in, in my own introverted way, like a very weird person, highly passionate.

and, just off doing my own thing often. So, I think being with somebody that really understands everything about me was paramount. And Cara is incredibly talented and really helped drive their early success. Ky she was, the New York Times covered her, in fact as I think the title of it was Alone in the World of Watches that described her as I think the sole female voice at scale, in watches at the time.

so she understands how strange the industry can be, as well.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, she's fabulous and I had the pleasure of interviewing her about her brand Pache. not so long ago, I really enjoyed interviewing her and talking to her and listening to her views on the whole industry and her sort of this vision that she has for her brand of bringing watches to a much younger audience through that brand.

it's a great story. we can't get to the end of this conversation without talking about the future of the watch industry. the watch industry has been through this series of traumatic events, whether it's the courts crisis, the seventies and eighties, the financial crisis of two.

The [00:29:00] pandemic not so long ago. but some are saying now that it's in the fight of its life. As volumes continue to tumble, revenues are coming down that there's a big relevance question over the watch industry at the moment. What's your reading of the current market landscape and where does it go from here?

Ben Clymer: in, in many ways it's like, and this is like the best non-answer I can give. It's just meh, we've been here before, you know what I mean? And I

 our mutual friend William Rohrer, back in the day used to say the watch industry, look at ba right?

Like continuously running since 1755. Like. How many world wars, how many plagues, how many global crises? it's like the Swiss watch industry is gonna be just fine. And I can tell you very unofficially that the market in the US is incredibly strong. We're seeing double digit growth across categories, high end, low end, et cetera.

It's not just Rolex doing well, other brands are doing well too. if you have good product and price it right, people will buy it. And I think, the tariffs are a totally different conversation that changes stuff. Obviously. but I really believe in the future of watchmaking, I believe that it'll be higher end and more specialized.

the fact that Urban Jorgensen is effectively a starter brand and charging what they charge granted it's Kari, so it's [00:30:00] different. but the idea of doing really special things, there will always be a market for that. And I think we're obviously gonna see more consolidation.

Rolex will. the brands that we expect to come stronger will become stronger. However, I think there's a lot of opportunity for younger brands. We see guys like, obviously Red Shep, who's beyond being a startup at this point. he's a global force. But you look at Simon Brett who has produced one watch and, we did an interview with him at our UBS event in person last fall. He was saying he gets about 36 inquiries for a watch a day, right. And he makes 12 watches a. So, you get guys like that do things really beautifully and there's a lot of demand and that's a hundred thousand watch in gold. so I really believe in the future of it. I think the fact that, kids are coming up to me at a local bar or a local restaurant saying I'm starting to watch some business that is just gonna get more people excited about it. I wanna make sure people do it the right way. I wanna. If not that you asked me for a criticism of the watch industry, but I think pricing has gotten outta control. and this is coming from me. I'm a very active consumer [00:31:00] of watches, as well as somebody that covers it. I think pricing at the high end in particular is really outrageous at this point. my old colleague, Jack Forrester Astutely, would point out, when he was with us that the average physician. So after tax, we'll say that's 160,000, right? So if your average protect Philippe perpetual calendar is $160,000, you're telling me that a medical doctor in the New York area should spend his entire year's take home on a watch. It makes no sense. and I think people have become really, overly sure of their ability to sell at retail. And when you look at the great brands, the Rolex. The majority of all those collections do not trade above retail still. and so, this idea that all these brands trade above is a total fallacy. Like no question about it. Of course Nautilus do, Aquins do, Daytona do, but the majority of those collections do not. And brands pricing, as if they want to get to parody. And I would say. Franco Am and he's the absolute legend. He was one that spoke about that pretty publicly in many [00:32:00] ways. It seemed like he wanted to get to parity. So a steel perpetual calendar, from used to be about 85,000 bucks, and then they started trading in the one hundreds.

He raised the price too. And now a steel perpetual calendar non-line edition will trade for about the same as retail. And so what does that do to brand desirability? Look, I think AP is still incredibly hot, don't get me wrong, but I know for a fact that, there it's taking a few more calls to sell your average Royal Oak today than it did two years ago.

And the same can be said for just about any brand. I think, with the exception of a Steel Daytona or something, a. Person in the can afford in category still high. I think people.

David Sadigh: Yeah, I understand where you come from on the prices and so on. And it's true that, we have acquired a company that, many of the [00:33:00] listeners know called Rehab and Max had, has been on the podcast a couple of times where we track and analyze, not only for watches, but in fact for jewelry and handbags and so on, the evolution of prices between like primary and secondary, gray market and so on. And something we have noticed is that, even when they don't sell. beyond MSRP, beyond like a retail price. some of those prices increased so much in the last couple of years that people are still making money compared to the original price that they have been paying for, and I think that's also one of the reason and one of the impact on the market. Now, I looked the other day at APS number. for example, the offshore, that's for sure. you look at the collection, it's getting sold, way beyond,MSRP, but indeed the Royal Oak, for example, you still have Pretty decent,price around them. So, AMED the impression that we are also going to see a slowdown as far as price increases are concerned.

I think in other podcasts we have seen what was happening with LVMH and so on, and I think there is some kind of reality check a bit [00:34:00] everywhere, China slowing down, et cetera. So would you agree,or what's your take? And the question is also to the both of you or to you as well, Robin. do you also feel that it's a bit, the end of chapter one?

I would say, or chapter two, and that there is probably like a reality check that, has started and that we are not going to face any craziness for at least a couple of 3, 4, 5 years. Is it your take as 

Ben Clymer: I,I hope you're right, but I don't think you are. And the reason I say that is because I have visibility into the price increases I'm speaking to the US primarily here, visibility to the price increases that, that are a direct result to the Trump tariffs. And I think, watch the Switzerland carries something like 80 brands.

I believe that we have 15 to 20 brands, including some big. So crazy. In a period where we have, incredible global uncertainty, like potential wars in the Middle East, we have tariffs. Trump, who knows what he's gonna do today, tomorrow, the next day. [00:35:00] So to raise prices in this moment, I understand why, but they're thinking really short term. It's okay, so there's gonna be a 10% tariff coming outta Switzerland.

How do we make that up quickly? Let's raise the prices that doesn't like, that doesn't, without much consideration to like what that does to consumer mindset or anything. So I don't believe that, we're phasing outta that. Just yet, yet I think, you know how it is to lower a price, right?

Like brands just don't do that. So I think the odds of anybody kind of being more conservative,are low. And I, look, I'm a, I love protect, like I'm a watch guy, so how can you not? Right? And to me, like the watch I got married in is called the 52 70 piece Perpetual Graph from Protect.

To me it's the,

it's end all of, That, not my particular dial, but they still make that watch with a green dial. The retail price is something like 235,000 right now, which is just ridiculous. And when I bought it, it was like 160 or 70, something like that plus tax. Of course, the average secondary market value of that watch from this is, and arguably their most fa, aside, their most famous [00:36:00] watch, the secondary market price on that is probably, I. So no matter who you are, with the exception of me 'cause I'm an idiot, no matter who you are, no matter how much money you have, are you really okay with buying something from Patek Philipp that's gonna be worth than what you're paying for it? it's just mind blowing to, to, to people and protect. Doesn't necessarily mind so much. And of course they're still available they're still selling them and they always will. But it's just this idea of cons, consumerism and, purchasing watches for the love of watches. It's still very much there. And that's clearly how I still buy. I'm also not wealthy of man to be that foolish sometimes, So there are watches that I would love to buy from Patek leave that I think are technically so innovative and so incredible at finishing, like it's pure Patek leave. But I think the pricing delta versus what the, what they trade for is just too vast.

And it's not just Patek Longa ap, every watch I'm focusing on because people know them. [00:37:00] Are charging so much for watches that are worth it in the sense that the innovation is there, that the quality is there, but that the market doesn't support it. And that's a real challenge. And I think the challenge that, that I hear from watches and I'm not really involved with the commercial side of things, is that you basically have 10 watches that everybody wants and you know what they are, right?

Nalu, Daytona, whatever. And then everything else is hard to sell because I say, well, if I'm gonna buy a Rolex, I want it to trade above list because then if my kid gets into a good school and I can't afford to pay for it, I can sell the watch or whatever. And the last few years has really changed the narrative on that, where it went from being guys that just loved watches and if you made money, cool to being ensuring that if you don't make money, you're doing it wrong. and that's a real problem. and we hope to change that for sure.

Robin Swithinbank: Which I think takes us back to the beginning conversation when you were talking about pre-owned. to my mind, pre-owned has become the engine room of the watch industry. Volumes are going up, revenues are going up. We had our in Vander ve from Watch Finder on the pod a few episodes ago, and he was saying, they're experiencing double digit increases at the moment as reported in recent bonds, [00:38:00] most recent annual report.

So, my view is there is an enormous. price pricing crisis in watches, I would say at the moment. to the extent that we're seeing brands cannibalized by sales of their own secondary market watches. the Swatch group is a particular victim here, I think, because it doesn't have a pre-owned business.

and so, as Speedmaster, which is, retailing for what, eight, $9,000 is going on the secondary market, three years old for five or $6,000. So if that watch is in great condition and it's got a two year warranty on it, and you can get it for $4,000 less than retail, why wouldn't you buy that? particularly as people recognize, because people are educated these days about watches, they recognize the price has gone up, exponentially over the last three or four years, and they're looking for value.

so I, I think this is a huge problem for the watch industry and it's why. It's not entirely why, but it's one of the reasons why we have seen volumes halving in 10 years. I think that's largely as a consequence, and that includes of course, things like Moon Swatch and PRX, which are, cheapest chips as far as the Swiss watch industry is concerned.

but I think the big reason that volumes have declined so rapidly is that people are voting [00:39:00] with their wallets and saying, this stuff's too expensive. and if that continues, if that's the trajectory for the next five to 10 years, I dunno where we are, at that point. And that's kind, that would be my final question to you really, Ben, I think is, you look into your crystal ball, if I can give you one for a moment, five years down the line, what sort of shape does the industry take?

Ben Clymer: Yeah, I think at scale it'll be roughly the same size. It'll be much lower quantity and much higher quality in cost. it'll be far fewer watches,but much better watches. And to be frank, the watch guy in me loves that. And frankly,the industry pundit loves that because there's so much garbage out there.

Right. And I think, you guys see it, there's so much stuff out there that like is not qualitative enough to be the price that, that it costs using the same movement, same cases, same everything. Everyone's sharing components and that's fine. That's part of the watchmaking industry. I would love to see fewer watches made a better quality. That's okay with me. And I think back on, on watches that I've purchased over the years where I couldn't send the wire or swipe the credit card fast enough. And it's not because it was worth more, it's because I thought the quality was really there and it felt like something really [00:40:00] special. And I want everyone to experience that every time they buy a watch, whether it's from watches of Switzerland, from anyone else, from an independent watchmaker, from watch, I want everyone to have that feeling where they're so joyous in that moment. That it, whether it's marking, a birth, a graduation, or just because they love the watch. I want people to feel good about their purchases. And my, my, my fear right now is that people don't, unless you're buying a steel Daytona at retail, and not that many people get to do that. And I just think the industry at large needs to really be aware of that, and really be mindful of the fact. Everyone knows this, that nobody needs this stuff. Prices are really high. the world is right now and I. How much desire is required to walk into a watch of Switzerland or watch Finder or anybody around the world and put down a credit card or send a wire for meaningful dollars that could go to your child's future again, no matter how wealthy you are, or a great vacation or a new car or anything. yeah,as I think you guys know,the big competition to Rolex or Omega [00:41:00] is. and I think that is what I don't think, the brands are really thinking about too often. they get too wrapped up in, okay, we're ap, we need to look at pet tech, where longer we need to look at AP or whatever. in fact, it really is like creating a product that is so compelling that you don't wanna spend it on something that includes your children, your family, your loved.

Robin Swithinbank: great viewpoint to finish on Ben, I think, uh, we were anticipating a sort of. 25 minute half in our conversation. We're already at 45 minutes. And the strange thing is that I could easily go for another 45 minutes and, uh, ask you a whole lot of other questions, but let come back on Series two, we'll pick up this, pick up this conversation another time. Look, man, it's, been an incredible ride. and before we check out, I just wanna say congratulations on everything you've achieved and, I do think that the entrepreneurial spirit, you have, the willingness you've had to take these risks over the past 17 years have changed this industry, forever, uh, as far as I can work out.

And even though you're only in your forties as you, as we've alluded to, I hope you can look back on it with great pride and see your legacy. So, thank you for joining us. Thank you for being on the Luxury Society Podcast. Great talking to you. Have a wonderful summer and, catch you on the flip 

side. 

Ben Clymer: you 

guys. 

David Sadigh: [00:42:00] It was a pleasure, Ben. Thank you for joining.

Ben Clymer: of course, it was a lot of fun guys. Hope to see you soon.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, next up, it's a great pleasure to welcome back onto the Pod max payroll founder and CEO of DL G's sister company. UB Max has spent the past 15 years in China helping global brands with digital transformation, and today he joins us to unpack what impact Chinese shopping festivals have on e-commerce.

Max, welcome back All well, .

Max Peiro: I been happy to be back. 

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, well, before we get into the specifics of this subject and look at how China's shopping festivals influence e-commerce, some of our listeners may not have tuned into earlier episodes where we've discussed the current climate for luxury brands in China. Broad strokes, what's the landscape look like at the moment?

Max Peiro: Well, the reality is that it is still a challenging situation for luxury brands in China. And I would summarize it with four key points. Number one, demand remains fragile, and growth is [00:43:00] polarized. Mostly concentrated around specific brands. We're talking about Montclair, Ralph, Lauren, coach, but also concentrated around categories.

For example, ready to wear is performing stronger at the moment than other categories like leather goods. Also, we see that the middle ground is collapsing. Only those brands that clearly own either the top tier, the durability or the value for money narrative are managing to hold ground. The quote unquote average brand is getting squeezed.

Also, we see that the gray markets are disrupting D two C and we see plenty of brands with growing revenues at deep discounts in the gray market, which the obvious impact into sales cannibalization. Finally, product is still king if it's the right product. our recently released Glow Index confirms that brands generating a higher share of revenue from new products [00:44:00] outperform and examples of with their, uh, IV or the recent AGNE collection.

Just confirm that.

Robin Swithinbank: I must uh, point back to episode two when Bene talked to us about the gray market That was very interesting and, tall with what you've just said about the gray market. And, you've also just mentioned glow and we'll come back to that with Benet actually later in this episode.

I think it's relatively well known around the world and in luxury circles that the Chinese commercial calendar revolves around milestone events, these big shopping festivals, none of which has traveled better than Chinese New Year.

open this up for us a little bit. What are the other key milestone events and therefore the key shopping festivals in China?

Max Peiro: Besides, Chinese New Year that you already mentioned, we have several that are relevant. First of all, we have Qi Festival, or the Chinese Valentine's Day, this is a concept derived from Chinese mythology. and as it's based on the lunar calendar takes place in July or August, depending on the year.

We also have five 20, and this is the [00:45:00] internet Valentine's Day.

Robin Swithinbank: That sounds very romantic.

Max Peiro: yeah, the story is interesting. So five 20, which stands for May 20 obviously. in Chinese it's called W, which sounds. Like, I love you in Chinese. So that's why this date, this specific date was chosen.

Robin Swithinbank: How long has that, festival existed?

Max Peiro: you got me there. It's been several years. probably less than 10, I would say.

Robin Swithinbank: I hope you've been celebrating it with somebody. But, uh, anyway,any others?

Max Peiro: Uh, so besides this, we also have a six 18, which takes place on June 18th, and this is a pure. E-Commerce Festival. it's a mid-year shopping festival and also we have, singles Day or Double 11 taking place in November 11.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay. so five major shopping festivals in total. Quantify for us, just how significant are these milestones commercially and specifically for luxury brands?

Max Peiro: they are massive, especially when it comes to e-commerce, sales based on our own data from Compass, [00:46:00] our competitive intelligence platform, monitoring luxury and premium brands across China, digital ecosystem. The total revenues from these events. represent over 50% of the brand's annual revenues on marketplaces like Teo or jd.

Robin Swithinbank: Gosh, that's a significant proportion. okay, so obviously they stimulate consumer appetite, but what factors should brands be considering when they're bringing products to the market, designed to time with them, and to capitalize on that appetite?

Max Peiro: Yeah, that's a good question. I think brands must consider three key factors when they are planning campaigns around these festivals. First of all, cultural re They must create locally resonant creative campaigns, often leveraging celebrities or brand ambassadors, and build the campaign around, these individuals.

Point number two, newness the importance of creating these exclusive product drops that will allow to [00:47:00] drive commercial success. And finally. conversion, right? These are, campaigns. These are events that are creating huge amounts of traffic. So how can you effectively convert, through strategic, not just blanket promotions.

Robin Swithinbank: It is become quite clear through conversations we've had on the Luxury Society podcast that the Chinese luxury market is evolving again into something new sticking with these shopping festivals, should brands work on the principle that they will continue to drive interest and footfall.

Max Peiro: Well, as everything in China, the relevance of these festivals is also evolving fast. From a consumer perspective, I believe that the novelty and the excitement of shopping festivals are beginning to fade away. And last year, singles Day was the clearest example of this fatigue. we've seen slowing growth, and we've also seen a shift in the tone across platforms.

Robin Swithinbank: what are the eCom platforms doing then to adapt to this evolving [00:48:00] landscape?

Max Peiro: They are trying to consolidate their efforts. For example, this year Tmall merge five 20 into the six 18 festival cycle. So they deprioritize what was once a standalone moment that is five 20 in favor for a longer. More promotion driven mid-year sales season.

Robin Swithinbank: And what about the brands? it must be significant marketing and merchandising burden to or to meet the schedule created by these shopping festivals, which are obviously they're being so big. it must place an enormous burden on, can they afford to keep up and to address each milestone in a manner befitting their position?

Max Peiro: The reality is that it's becoming challenging. what we're seeing is that some top tier luxury houses are pulling out of events like single day and like six 18. remember these events are, very sales driven and also we see that premium and designer labels are. Favoring, conversion focused festivals and significantly reducing [00:49:00] their effort on marketing I think that brands are trying to reduce their presence on certain occasions when those moments no longer align either with their brand positioning or with their ROI expectations.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay. Let's look at movers and shakers and try and figure out then who's managing to evolve fastest and most efficiently. 

Max Peiro: So looking at, five 20 and six 18 recent performance, I would say that, in terms of notable winners. First, premium fashion and leather good brands like Ralph Lauren, like coach, like icicle, they use this prolonged six 18 window. Remember that it lasts for around one month to double down on dedicated campaigns and outperform, their peers when it comes to revenue, we also have jewelry brands.

more focused on the five 20 and the gifting element of, five 20. But brands like, killin or Cartier, they successfully leveraged the gifting [00:50:00] nature of the event to capture romantic and emotional consumption. And with the launch of new products and compelling campaigns, around this theme.

And also we have brands like Montclair, which are maintaining positive year on year growth even without resorting to any discounts or any promotions. these are brands that are leveraging their strong brand equity and carefully time novelties to drive this growth.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, we've heard a lot about Mim Mu and Montclair and Cartier on this podcast over the course of, the past, 12 episodes. that's very much a consistent story that we've been hearing, which is, interesting. you mentioned the middle ground at the top of this conversation, And you said it was suffering at the moment.

So overlay that for us against the shopping festivals and this strategic approach, which appears to be delivering rewards for Ralph Lauren and Mi Mu etal, how is the middle ground doing against this backdrop?

. 

Max Peiro: the middle ground is suffering the most, we've seen through our proprietary data that during this five 20 and six [00:51:00] 18. 70% of luxury and premium brands that we track on Compass saw year on year declines. so as we said, we see few brands that are able to generate growth, but the middle ground is still suffering.

These are brands that are suffering from lack of brand relevance. They are suffering from lack of new product launches that fail to resonate with consumers. And then they have the risk of entering this vicious circle where financial pressure may lead to budget cuts that will only make things worse moving forward.

Robin Swithinbank: Challenging times. Okay, well, we can't leave this topic without making some forecasts up next is, CHII Chinese Valentine's Day in August, following the lunar calendar as you outlined, what expectations do you have of how luxury brands will perform through that milestone?

Max Peiro: it's very challenging, in this context to make predictions, but, I think it's important to highlight that Qi. It's a pure gifting occasion, [00:52:00] without the noise and the pressure of festivals that are more sales driven. So with this context, brands may find a clear opportunity for storing, telling, for launching novelties, seeking deeper emotional resonance.

however, I think it's important to highlight that the market pressures remain. We still have a weakened consumer sentiment. on the brand side, we observe that there are in general tight marketing budgets. and also it's important to highlight that, from a consumer perspective, they have the opportunities to shop overseas or in the gray market at better prices.

I think that it's very important with this context that we closely monitor. The performance of luxury consumption from now until chi sheet takes place to better understand what the expectations can be.

Robin Swithinbank: Love in uncertain times. let's see if we can summarize this and, correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick. So, from what you [00:53:00] said, I think Chinese shopping festivals are still hugely significant, but there are signs that they're losing some impact and that consumer interest is waning slightly.

And then that is prompting some brands to look for efficiencies by merging their sales and marketing strategies across multiple milestones. Maybe we'll see more of that in the future. I couldn't be sure, of course, but That leaves brands needing to identify which moments marry their own profile and their client's interests best.

Max Peiro: What is that a fair assumption, A fair summary Yeah, I think you describe it very well. I would add that in this times of uncertainty, that the old playbook. That luxury brands, use in China is no longer relevant. and nowadays brands need to more than ever, leverage this insights about the changing market trends, about understanding the competitor's performance, about being able to, identify product trends to make these well-informed decisions, and specifically for [00:54:00] festivals.

First of all, they need to understand which moments truly matter to their core segments, knowing that they will not be able to develop relevant campaigns across all the different festivals. so pick your choices. They need to tailor the product strategies and then build campaigns around these product strategies that are relevant for each moment.

and finally, being able to benchmark, Their performance against their key competitors to justify this continued investment.

Robin Swithinbank: Interesting stuff. Good, max, as before, always illuminating speaking with you. Thanks so much for bringing your work and all those insights to the Luxury Society Podcast. have a good summer and we'll talk to you. on the other side.

Max Peiro: Thank you, Robin.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Okay. So for the final time in this first season of the Luxury Society Podcast, I'm delighted to welcome back the ever present Benedict Terrace, DGS partner and international client director for on the download Bene Last Chance to dazz this before the summer break.

What have you got?

Benedicte Soteras: Hi Robin. I [00:55:00] hope I will. So for this episode, I'd like to introduce you to our latest report, the Glow Index. It's a new report that uses a new metric we've developed to measure something crucial, but often overlooked. It's whether consumers are actually buying into a brand's newness.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Okay. Quick step back glow. That sounds suspiciously like an acronym.

Benedicte Soteras: Huh? Yes. Well, guilty as Challenge Glue stands for Growth Leveraging On Newness. It's powered by our Compass data platform and compares the share of new products in a brand's total listing against their contribution to revenue. Essentially, it reveals whether your latest launches or pulling their weight commercially, or if you're just adding inventory without impact.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Goodness, clever stuff. Okay. And like Compass, does this apply to China specifically?

Benedicte Soteras: Yes, exactly. So we analyze 78 fashion brands on Tmall from January to April, 2025. And what's striking is the median glow index sits [00:56:00] at 0.62. Meaning most brands see new products contributing less to revenue than their share of listings, which suggest, but the spread is enormous from zero point 16 to 1.6 on the index, showing massive variations in how effectively brands leverage novelty.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Hmm. Interesting. Okay, so who's nailing this newness game?

Benedicte Soteras: Brand called Icicle is our star performer with a glow index of 1.6. This Chinese equal luxury brand known for creating minimal sophisticated, ready-to-wear, exclusively made from natural fabrics under their made in-ear philosophy, generated 40% of revenue from new products. That represented just 25% of their listing.

And what's remarkable in, in this approach is that they've adopted an almost fast fashion release rhythm. Despite their premium positioning. They've launched over a hundred new SKUs monthly over the period through frequent capsule [00:57:00] drops rather than traditional seasonal collection.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Hmm. That sounds like a fundamentally different approach to luxury merchandising. How's it working for them commercially? How's it translating to sales?

Benedicte Soteras: Well brilliantly, they achieved 21% year over year revenue growth while maintaining a restrained promotional strategy. They've essentially cracked the code on constant newness without sacrificing brand equity. So they position them selves as one of China's most successful premium fashion brands right now.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Cool. I'd never heard of them until now. So that's, uh, that's an interesting development. Uh, but on the flip side, who's bringing up the rear?

Benedicte Soteras: Well, Ralph Lauren offers an interesting contract. They have a glow index of 0.6, slightly below median. They still achieve an impressive 28% year year revenue growth, but that's thanks to preppy and workwear trends. However, none of their top 10 bestsellers in 2025 were newly released this year.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: So they're growing in spite of rather than [00:58:00] because of their new products.

Benedicte Soteras: Precisely. It's actually quite common among heritage or resurgent brands that established product line provides stability. But in a market, Hungary for freshness, and especially in China, they need stronger marketing activations to help consumers connect with their evolving identity and latest offerings.

So the key insight is building a mechanizing strategy that's both sustainable and adaptable.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: A couple of extreme case studies there. Uh, but what's the broader takeaway for luxury brands looking at these numbers,

Benedicte Soteras: Well, the Glow Index reveals that newness alone isn't enough. It's about strategic newness. Successful brands either master the art of constant relevant innovation like icicle, or they need to work harder. I. At making the heritage feel contemporary and exciting, and in China's competitive landscape, standing still with your product strategies, essentially moving backward.

2025-06-16--t10-34-50am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Yeah. Okay. Well, they need that glow up moment, don't they? As my, [00:59:00] uh, teenage daughter would say, well, look, Benet a good one to finish with shining light on what's really going on out there as ever. Thanks so much for all the work you've done to bring this segment to life throughout this first season of the Luxury Society Podcast. Have a great summer 

Benedicte Soteras: Thank you, Robin. You too, and looking forward to the next season.

Robin Swithinbank: So that's a wrap for the Luxury Society Podcast Season one, and what a ride it's been whether you listen to Jaguar's Jerry McGovern, defending the most controversial luxury rebrand in Living Memory, or Tag hos Antoine P on leveraging Formula one to accelerate his business.

Thank you so much for tuning in. One thought before we go. If you'd like to work with the Luxury Society or appear on the pod, we'd love to hear from you. We're proud to say this podcast has racked up thousands and thousands of downloads, and now sits comfortably in the top 10% of all the world's active podcasts for which we have our incredible guests and loyal audience to thank.

Get in touch with us if that is you via our LinkedIn or email us at [01:00:00] pod@digital-luxury.com. That's pod@digital-luxury.com and we'll be pleased to pick up the conversation. Last up. Huge thanks to my co-host and sparring partner, David Sadig to Benedict Soterra for making on the download Makes sense to Lilian Yap for keeping the show on the road.

And last, but in no way least to our brilliant and ever patient producer, Juliet Fallowfield of Fallow, Field and Mason. I've been Robin Swithinbak and this has been The Luxury Society Podcast Season one.