BONUS episode: Robin and David review Season 1

In this special bonus episode, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh  reflect on the first season of The Luxury Society Podcast. From Chinese EV disruptors to the luxury pricing paradox, they revisit standout guests, surprising insights, and bold predictions - and share their take on where luxury is headed next.

Tune in for a candid conversation on:

• Chinese luxury's global expansion and whether brands like Xiaomi and XPENG can break into Western markets
• Why Gerry McGovern’s Jaguar relaunch divided headlines and how the data backed him up
• The Hermes effect, LVMH's shake-ups, and why luxury groups may face portfolio pressure
• Rising stars in watches and jewellery 
• Pricing fatigue and the pre-owned boom: are brands pushing consumers too far?
• What data (and common sense) say about value, demand and brand health today

🎧 Plus: A nod to AI, Vision Pro and what Season Two might just look like.

Brought to you by https://digitalluxurygroup.com/

Follow us @digitalluxurygroup & @robin_swithinbank on Instagram

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025 www.fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

DLG bonus ep

 [00:00:00] 

Robin Swithinbank: Well, hello and welcome to, what Are We Gonna Call This? Let's call it a special bonus episode of the Luxury Society Podcast. Brought to you as ever by Digital Luxury Group. in the room today. it's just David and me. David. Hi, how are you?

David Sadigh: Excited to be there as, always Robin.

Robin Swithinbank: it's good to see you. It's good to see you. Well look, to the audience if you've been listening to this podcast over the past three months. Well, first of all, thanks so much for listening. It's been great to have you. and second, you'll know that last week we said we'd wrapped the season.

 We had this fantastically frank conversation with Head Inky founder Ben Klier, which is, well, it's well worth skipping back an episode if you've not caught that one yet. But, David and I had an itch to, well to review this season. We've talked to so many fascinating people and covered so much ground, and we thought we should pick out a few of our, a few of our big takeaways.

and also to do what we've asked so many of our guests to do, which is to have a look at what the future holds for the luxury industry. So, David, an industry in crisis while polarization trump's tariffs falling consumer sentiment. Goodness me, it all sounds like terribly bad news, but, we have covered a lot of ground.

what [00:01:00] has stayed with you from this first season?

David Sadigh: Quite a lot of things. Robbie and I have to say that, we have been like, living through some, hectic, months. the rise of China and Chinese brands in general, I. impacting luxury, I think was like, one of the fascinating, topic, everyone, remember obviously like the importance of China as far as solar panel are concerned, but, we would've guessed like just five, six years ago that a company producing like,battery and phones like Shomi would become like a key player in the electrical vehicle industry.

So I think that was like,like the beginning of a wave that, I think we are all seeing now. With Europe and the US potentially getting flooded by Chinese electric vehicle, including in the premium slash potential luxury segment.

Robin Swithinbank: I'm interested you picked up that first 'cause actually that's one of the first things I wanted to talk about as well. I go back to the conversation that I had with Pablo in episode seven on the subject of Chinese luxury electric vehicles, which, what, it blew my mind. You, me, you mentioned Xme.

18 months on [00:02:00] from being founded. This, I think we recorded what, six weeks or so? So 18 months on,since the company had set itself up as a car manufacturer and only 14 months on from announcing that its first model would be called the SU seven.

And when we recorded, so whatever that was, five or six weeks ago, we learned that, they're now pumping out a new car every 76 seconds, which I think that might be my favorite statistic from this first season. but it prompted a number of questions. and in fact, both Pablo and, good old Max Paro from rehab have.

Been, asking this question throughout the season, we know that China can make good components. We know China can make good products, but can it make good luxury brands? I'd say we're about to find out. My hunch is that they can, and that over the next decade, establishment, luxury automotive marks and indeed beauty brands, and fashion brands and who knows what else, they're all gonna be in a new battle for market share.

That's one of the things that's become quite clear to me through this season.

David Sadigh: I think the reason why the China flooding the European market with their cars make you laugh is because, probably you are British. [00:03:00] I'm not sure that our German friends are that happy about it.

Robin Swithinbank: maybe not. and that I suppose, segues this nicely into the conversation that we had with Jerry McGovern on Jaguar, a much beloved brand, certainly to the British audience, and I suspect some way beyond as well. Episode six. That was, it's no secrets. I don't think, at least to that, to say that, that episode has been by far our most downloaded episode.

Jerry is a very compelling guy and has a very compelling story to tell. I think in politics we talk about wanting conviction politicians don't we? We want people who, they know what they want, they know what they believe, they cast a very clear vision, and then they become very single-minded in delivering it.

And it was fascinating to see how those qualities apply to Jerry and how they appear through him. He set Jagger on this path. He won't deviate from it even if he has fired the agency that came up with the launch campaign. But we'll gloss over that for the moment. But,he was so determined in his vision, and both you and I were pretty taken by it, weren't we?

I think we agreed on that same episode that, we back him to succeed. Hopefully it's a theme that we'll [00:04:00] return to, because Jaguar is set to, well, we didn't confirm it, but it's set to release its first car later this year, deep into the awesome fall period. But,it was certainly interesting to see that just this week Bentley has announced a new concept car called XP 15.

That looks not at all, unlike Jaguar's type zero zero. So Jerry might

just be onto something though. 

David Sadigh: Do you mean that maybe Jaguar had an JV had an impact on Bentley's, new car concept?

Robin Swithinbank: I wouldn't like to suggest that there's anything in the water in the northwest of England, which, they're all drinking. But, may, maybe there is. I also, I think I also loved in that episode that when I came to talking to Ben afa on the download, she had all this data that backed up Jerry's claim.

Jerry said in the episode, I think he said. we were the most talked about brand in the world for 12 weeks. and Benet had this data that showed that Jaguar had indeed been the most talked about brand in the world for about two months after, after the launch of that new campaign back in November last year.

And it was very cool to see, this story and this really big claim from somebody who is, he's [00:05:00] gonna be prone to make a big claim, but actually to see the data back that up and for the two to align was that was a pretty cool moment for me. I enjoyed that.

David Sadigh: Me too. But then I saw the sales and obviously I understand that the sales are not the reflect of Jerry's vision because obviously, like this is still the Let's say old, Jaguar, 1.0, that are like still being sold. But, what was your reaction

Robin Swithinbank: when you saw, like the latest figures,I saw that headline as well, that Jaguar cells are down by 97% and that was in, the Daily Mail, which was a newspaper in this country, which is very right-leaning and which was only ever going to be extremely critical of, of Jaguar's new campaign, describing it as woke and, all the usual, cliches were applied to it.

But, Jaguar has also been very explicit about the fact that he's not making any cars at the moment. So, hey, Presto, the nine, seven. Percent down in sales. That's not a headline as far as I'm concerned, e except that it indicates, that they are on this hiatus. And it's, if anything, it just applies a whole lot more pressure.

they really are selling no cars at the moment. they've been true to their word on that. And, later this year, when they start taking orders on their new car already next year, whenever that happens to [00:06:00] form, they, they're gonna be taking a sharp and take a breath, aren't they?

Let's face it.

David Sadigh: my reaction was to say, you remember when Jerry said, you either have to change or die. It looked like an artificial comma at the moment, but I'm quite excited about the awakening, right?

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, me too. and I, it's funny, isn't it? Although we didn't plan it this way. I feel that this podcast has landed at an inflection point for, for this industry, but in a way for the world as well. And we had this sort of three year season where post pandemic, or during the pandemic and in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic, there was this huge sort of revenge purchasing period.

luxury grew very rapidly. Share, prices went up, revenues went up. It all seemed like terribly good news. And then we've had this two year period of really sharp correction. and I wonder if we're just starting to come to the end of that. I hope we are, but I wonder if we're starting to come to the end of that, and if we're gonna get to a point where the consumer is almost forcing themselves to be more optimistic.

we're sick and tired of being miserable about the world. We're sick and tired of living in a perma crisis. I'm not saying that going out and spending loads of money is the only way to [00:07:00] solve that, but there could be a new optimism. I'm gonna, I'm gonna call it now, 2025, middle of 2025, maybe we're about to enter a season of new 

Optimism. That is probably wildly naive, but I think through the relaunch of something like Janko with this completely new style of car that's telling a completely new story and promising and a very different way of life, maybe there's something in it. Perhaps I'm clutching at straws. What do you think?

David Sadigh: I think that like a couple of weeks ago, everyone was talking only about the tariff and that, now we are like, leaving if tariff were not like existing anymore. And that, as you said while we were just talking ahead of the episode, we are not immune to the fact that things can, might go Afro very quickly depending on like the, political orientation of our friends in the.

In the us and, I guess that this is, making things quite, uncertain, right? It's very difficult to read what is going to happen. What I feel is that, your optimism as far as like the consumer are concerned and the evolution of the industry, I think is, is a bit, like contrasting with the stock market, because, [00:08:00] obviously now.

As far as luxury, the luxury industry is concerned, you can see that there is a new, in place called Hermes and that with one single brand, they manage to bid like a tremendous amount of market capitalization and value creation. And that, I think it's putting lot of pressure. on like the LVMH Kering of these words who have like big portfolios and, Now I have to justify the fact that despite own 10, 20, 80 brands, they struggle at like creating as much value as Hermes aka add the tech stock. So I think yeah, we live in a world where comparison is sometimes not reason, but having quite a strong impact on like perception, and that I'm really wondering who will become the next, Aires of the world.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I think you've sort of poured, water, on my dreams there. But, thank you nonetheless. yeah,I think, the Hermes story is one that we will come back to and LVMH obviously too, watching its share price. Half of it, not I. Over the course of the period, which we've been recording this podcast, but over the last too, years or [00:09:00] so, has been a very dramatic, story to follow and no, no doubt that one has got some way to run yet maybe there will be acquisitions, maybe some of these brands will be sold off.

what Are you hearing rumors on the grapevine about what's gonna happen to some of these businesses?

David Sadigh: No,I don't have any insider, but what I'm seeing is that I just look at the numbers ahead of the call for tag hire as tag. CO was, our first guest, in the. I have to say that the numbers we are seeing at DLG in term of like search demand and in term of evolution are quite positive.

So it seems that there is the beginning of some like interesting traction for the tag brand. remember this partnership, $1 billion partnership of a 10 years access to new generation lib media behind it and so on. So, before trying to, answer your question, I'm under the impression that. there are like some brands who are like not necessarily taking such radical shift as what Jaguar did, but that are still trying to really take what do, what it takes to attract and seduce new generation.

And Tiger is clearly one of the brand we will have to follow over the [00:10:00] next couple of, couple of months. now talking about like more the gossip, the rumors, and so on. I think an interesting trend we have been seeing in the last couple of weeks is like those people, changing industries. Eric Valla, who was at, Remi Control last week got announced as the new CEO of,Lacot brand being owned by Swiss Holding company called,mouse, fre, also owning couple of other brands.

I think that was like, worse. noticing. Obviously, like a couple of weeks ago, everyone spoke about it. We saw plenty of LinkedIn post, myself included. I have to admit, talking about, uh, Luo moving from like STIs, to caring. I think that's an interesting move as well. And and it's not the first time we have seen that at Chanel.

We have seen that at ps. So we can see that there are, I think, in the industry in quest of like innovation. Versus tradition and a subtle balance that need to be found between the two. It seems that many of the boards, and executive committees are like, looking for like a challenger [00:11:00] profile. We can bring a fresh insider perspective to their industry.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, it's scrambled eggs with a sprinkling of CBD, isn't it? it's that sort of cocktail that I think brands are gonna be looking for in the, in the next six months to a year as they try and fire up interest in what they're doing without. changing the product without changing what they stand for there.

and heritage is definitely not something that brands should be moving away from. It's something they need to be tapping into, but in such a way that it's innovative and relevant. This is another conversation we've had a number of times over the course of this season is, about how brands create relevance.

It's just CB, D, right?

Just CBD? Yeah. No,that's the solution. I have no, no skin in this game. But, if you are selling CBD, well there's a shout out for you. yeah, I really Interesting and I think, I'm very interested to see what Luc at de Mayor will do at Caring. I think we're all out on tenor hooks to see what sort of changes he makes, but I'm sure there'll be, they will be sweeping and, the future of Gucci kind of rest in his hands all of a sudden.

So, watch this space. It's funny, isn't it? we're leaning into eventually a conversation about pricing and about value, I think, and that's one of the themes that has emerged time and again through this, this first season of the [00:12:00] podcast. on the one hand this, we luxury wrestles with this paradox.

the whole point of luxury is that its value is in how valueless its product is. Scarcity has no tangible value. You can't sell, scarcity, and yet it's highly desirable. we know luxury won't solve any problems. We know it won't heal the sick. We know it won't end wars. We know it won't bring any solutions to the challenges of daily life, and yet.

At the same time, consumers are asking the value question, of their luxury purchases in a way that I don't feel I've seen in the two decades that I've been in, in this industry. Maybe there have been times in the past in the seventies and the eighties and various financial crises, but, certainly it's pretty new to me and to my personal experience.

but at the moment they're, they are determining the luxury products are often too expensive. I was talking to one watch collector and a couple of weeks back, London Watch Week, and he said to me that, the rapid price increases, in, in luxury watches have killed his interest.

That was his expression. He said, it's killed my interest. And that is a damning indictment of where the industry has got itself to.

David Sadigh: [00:13:00] I think you are like absolutely right. in one other end you can see that the fact that all those brands, especially in the watch industry, the fact that they raised their price in such a aggressive manner, also created some white space for many brands. I was looking at the numbers on our demand tracker, technology just before.

And, Fredic seems to be growing quite fast. Longing seems to be growing across many markets. Rado, which has been also undergoing a very interesting work in term of brand repositioning. under the leadership of, e Heim, third generation, you can see that all those elements starts. clicking and, and I think that's like probably a segment of the market.

we, try not to,forget them because we often talk about auto luxury and, as luxury and so on. But this aspirational slash premium segment is quite important. And I have to say that the numbers that I've been seeing from the launch in. are interesting and they are probably the reflect as well, that there are some brands who increase their prices maybe a bit too fast [00:14:00] and that are now, ing between introducing new products that are maybe at a lower, more accessible price point or leaving the territory to some of their, let's say,challenger, competitor.

Robin Swithinbank: I've gotta say I'm glad to hear that. I think, while I agree with Ben, on the one hand, as he said to us in last week's episode, that. There will be fuel watches and a higher quality. And that as a watch guy, I think he said, he welcomes that. He said There's an awful lot of garbage out there. I get that.

I recognize that perspective, but actually there's a huge part of me that is still the sort of 20, 25-year-old aspirational guy who's making his way in the world, who wants to be able to afford a mechanical watch and a Swiss made mechanical watch, if at all possible. and the prospect of a young person doing that these days is increasingly slight.

And I don't think that's to the industry's credit. But then again, I recognize that contradicts the whole principle of luxury. Luxury is exclusive and it is elite and it is scarce. but there's a real tension in that debate, but I'm nonetheless glad to see that some of those brands that are selling quote unquote accessible watches, are doing [00:15:00] well at the moment.

No, and just it's, we'll have the time to talk about it in hopefully, upcoming episodes. But, looking at jewelry, you have the same with a PM, Monaco also growing extremely fast. So, I don't think that this trend of white spaces being left by some of the big players and creating room.

David Sadigh: For growth for smaller, more agile or independent brands? I don't think that this is something affecting, the watch industry. only I think it's probably something that, we are going to witness across the board.

Robin Swithinbank: Very true. Yeah, no, I agree. yeah, I'm just going back to the overall, concept of luxury's value challenges as we've introduced it. one of the things that, that I think has become abundantly clear to me over the course of the three months we've been recording this, if we, if it wasn't already clear, is that consumer sentiment and price elasticity are directly proportional.

I don't think there's anything new in saying that, but I do think it's. Become very clear over the past few months, luxury has stretched the rubber band to breaking points since the pandemic. And it's clear that a significant factor in the volume and revenue crisis currently shaping the market, is value and this [00:16:00] price to value ratio, issue that, that consumers are expressing by not spending the money or at least spending the money on other stuff.

One of the points that Ben made last week, which I think has been made a number of times during the season as well, is that, if you are Rolex or Pega or Ms or anyone, you're not just competing with each other, you're not just competing with your pre-owned watches. And maybe we'll come to pre-owned in just a second, but, but you're also competing with the world of experience.

and that I think has had a very significant impact on the sector as well. yeah, and I just to come back to the pre, the pre-owned market, I think it's been really interesting to see, in our interviews in this season, but also in some of the writing that I've done over the past few months, that while there is a primary sale slump.

caused I think largely by this price to value issue. it's also evident in the growth of the pre-owned market, RN Vander Val, who spoke to us in episode nine. RN is from Watch Finder, made that, quite clear that his business is in good shape in a double digit growth over the course of the past 12 months.

and plenty of signs that business is gonna continue to grow because it offers value and the price to [00:17:00] value ratio,in the pre-owned market is much, much stronger. Consumers at the moment are saying that's what we want. So I think brands need a value reset and fast is one of my concluding thoughts from this season.

David Sadigh: Yeah, no. Again,I'm with you and, you can really feel that, When you can buy, like a new watch and that the retail price is like, 100 and you can get like a new watch with, a box on paper at 70, which means like 30% discount. obviously you will have like lots of folks asking,themselves the question on,whether it's not a big mistake to buy the new product.

And especially when you see that the level of trust that consumer express towards those like CPO platform are also. increasing really fast and, obviously I'm slightly biased because my day-to-day job is also to be involved with Max and the team on algorithm data and so on. But what I'm seeing is that,I can see still some people on the brand side that are like navigating.

The complexities of the market without using a GPS and still using a paper map. And, I'm under the impression that the [00:18:00] paper map nowadays becomes quite complicated because obviously there are new roads being created. There are like highway that are like being created and I think it's tricky to still rely on those like paper map where you have like new signals, new technology, new data.

A new way of measuring the value retention of measuring the brand health, of measuring whether your brand desirability can allow you to keep growing your production or potentially increasing your prices. So I'm quite convinced that in the months to come, we will see even more, companies. Relying on like CPO analysis, market analysis, trying to better understand at the SKU level what's happening, not happening, and using more and more data and AI to,try to optimise their, business decision.

Robin Swithinbank: Yes. And well, do you know an agency that can help with that?

David Sadigh: No, not really. Have a few financial analyst and, like a couple of folks, but, no, no agency come top of mind. You had one.

Robin Swithinbank: Look, David, let's, let's bring it into land [00:19:00] there. I'm ready to guesstimate. We could talk about this sort of stuff until the Birkin handbags come home, but, let's save some of it for season two. look, it's been a huge pleasure putting this podcast together with you, as well as being very proud of what we've done over the last 12 episodes.

I'm already pumped for what and for who are in the schedule for September and beyond. But, it's time to go and enjoy the summer. I think I need a holiday haircut that about you. But, have a good one and I'll. See you on the other side.

David Sadigh: Maybe, who knows, Robin, maybe the next season of the podcast will be like, also available, not just on Apple Podcast, but using the Apple Vision Pro. now that we have been hearing that, new version will be changed so that we can continue, adapting ourselves to new technology, ai, and so on.

Robin Swithinbank: Yes. Well, I'm the Luddite in the room, so, I'll leave that to you guys and to Lovely. Or who spoke to us in, I dunno, episode four or five or something about Vision Pro. Also, well worth a listen, do, if you're listening to this podcast, do, go back and listen to some of our previous episodes.

There's some cracking stuff in there, but, for now, over and out.

David Sadigh: Cho 

Robin Swithinbank: [00:20:00] . Still there. One thought before we really do let you go. The Luxury Society Podcast is going on a little summer hiatus, but only as far as recording is concerned while the tape stopped. We are going to market to look for a sponsor if you'd like to speak to thousands of luxury industry types and be part of one of the fastest growing podcasts in the world.

Well, we'd love to hear from you. The luxury society isn't just a podcast mind. Luxury society.com is a hub for luxury professionals offering insightful stories that peel back the luxury industry's layers with razor sharp analysis and data insights that will give you and your teams an edge over the competition.

The Luxury Society's Weekly newsletter also has 23,000 subscribers, and between the team involved in this podcast, we rack up almost 100,000 average monthly impressions as we tell luxury stories to our networks of industry professionals and consumers. If that sounds tempting, get in touch with any one of us via LinkedIn or email us at [00:21:00] pod@digitalluxury.com.

That's pod@digitalluxury.com and we'll be only too pleased to pick up the conversation. For now, I've been Robin Swen Bank wishing you the summary EST of Summers, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast.