Stay another day: Tom Barber of Original Travel on the rise of luxury sabbaticals

This week on The Luxury Society Podcast, host Robin Swithinbank sits down with Tom Barber, co-founder and brand director of Original Travel, to explore how the world of luxury, bespoke travel is evolving in 2025.

From sabbaticals to sustainability, Barber shares how consumer motivations have shifted since the pandemic, why “time” remains the ultimate luxury and how his company is rethinking experiences for a new generation of discerning travelers.

Tune in for a candid conversation on:

• Why luxury travel has proven remarkably resilient despite economic headwinds
• The rise of 3G (three-generational) travel and family sabbaticals
• How ecotourism, “philanthro-tourism,” and meaningful experiences are shaping choices
• Why carbon absorption (not just offsetting) is now a minimum expectation
• The problem with over-tourism—and why “under-tourism” may be the answer
• Social media’s double-edged sword: influencer culture vs. authentic travel
• How Original Travel is helping clients make holidays truly non-negotiable

🎧 Plus: Jacques Roizen joins from Shanghai with an on-the-ground update on the Chinese luxury market—are we finally seeing signs of a rebound?

Brought to you by https://digitalluxurygroup.com/ 

Follow us @digitalluxurygroup & @robin_swithinbank on Instagram

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025 www.fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Robin Swithinbank: Hello and a very warm welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast brought to you in association with Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swithinbank, and today I am flying solo. While my wingman David Sadig is called to pressing matters of the luxury estate, he'll be back suited and booted next week. Last week, we kicked off the season with the High Impact interview with Breitlings Chief Executive George Kern, on one of the biggest sports marketing deals in watchmaking history.

Do check that out if you haven't already, but for now, stay tuned as we step away from the world of hard luxury and into that of bespoke luxury travel. Original travel is one of the world's most highly regarded luxury travel companies picking up numerous accolades through its 20 plus year history. But how is this golden sector fairing in a season when luxury consumer sentiment is low?

Is travel proving a non-negotiable or are luxury travelers keeping their money tucked away for a rainy day? We'll find out shortly in our interview with the company's founder, Tom Barber. Following that, I'm very pleased to say that [00:01:00] Jack Rozen will be back. Jack is a leading expert on the Chinese luxury market and will be checking in from his DLG base in Shanghai with insights into what some are calling the first signs of a Chinese rebound.

Is it finally happening? More on that later, but for now on with the show.

Tom Barber: Instagram and TikTok are doing a terrible job of making some places unbelievably popular.

The world is an enormous place and there are plenty of places one can go that aren't full of people. 

Instead head south from Naples airport and go to Cilento.

We just need to spread the people and consequently the tourist dollar.

The best influences are superb, unbelievably hardworking. They really drill down into what their brief is for us, if they're doing things with different travel companies,

and they can be superb. A lot of them are absolute chances though.

Robin Swithinbank: Right. Switching into travel mode this week I'm [00:02:00] delighted to welcome onto the Luxury Society Podcast. Tom Barber. Tom is the founder and brand director of Original Travel, which specializes in luxury, bespoke travel experiences. Tom began his career in the 1990s as a journalist, good Man,

and then in the early two thousands moved into the travel business when he and two friends set up big short breaks. Big short breaks offered, tailor-made adventures aimed at time. Poor cash rich professionals that grew into original travel, which took the bespoke tailor-made idea and applied it to a more exotic portfolio of destinations and longer breaks. Whether you're planning a family getaway or a career sabbatical, come to us was the vibe. Then in 2017, the company was acquired by Voyager Dumond, but it continues to operate in the UK as original travel With Tom driving the train today, it takes luxury seeking explorers and adventurers to every corner of the world, encouraging not just indulgent rest and relaxation, but also motivations such as ecotourism. And what it calls Phil Andour, where philanthropy and Travel [00:03:00] meet the travel industry has recognized original travel with a litany of awards. And this year, the US edition of Conde Nast Traveler named 10 of original travels in-house experts among its top 50 travel specialists. High praise indeed. entrenched as we are at screens and behind microphones, let's not get too wild and dreamy and instead get into the story. So Tom, welcome. Great to have you here. Thank you so much for coming on the Luxury Society Podcast. How are you?

Tom Barber: I am very well. Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

lovely to talk travel. 

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Let's talk some travel.

So, this, the first question I suppose we have to ask a travel guru is where are you right now? And if, as I fear the answer will be that you're in your office, where's the where's the last envy inducing destination you visited?

Tom Barber: well, I've just got back from Italy, uh, which is always envy inducing. and spent a lovely week on a GT cruise around the coast of Turkey, so that was this summer's escapades, but I live in. Sunny, sometimes Norfolk, which is, if you're gonna be in the uk it's as [00:04:00] nice 

as it gets there. As well. Yeah, 

Robin Swithinbank: Anglia, a beautiful corner of the world. Did some of my growing up there as well.

Well look in preparation for this episode. If, if it's anything to go by, it's gonna be extremely difficult to have this conversation without getting hopelessly distracted by thoughts of all these incredible places you go to.

But, let's give it a go. Uh, start by giving us a potted history of original travel and perhaps a quick explanation of the company's contemporary USP.

Tom Barber: that was a very good summary you did earlier anyway, but just to clarify one thing, we didn't start as the big short break. We were always original travel, but the key concept was the big short break. and that came about because. The three of us, I was as a journalist, as you said. Nick Newbury was in the city and Alain had been in the army and then was in vc.

And we wanted to get her to travel obviously, but we needed a niche or an angle. and we did a lot of research. Nick used some of his corporate finance background and analytic call, [00:05:00] ability. And obviously the fact that these banks have enormous databases. Did some research and realized that there was a huge area of potential in short breaks.

So it was a very vanilla, corner of the market at that stage, long weekend in Paris, maybe stretching to the most exciting thing being a ski weekend or something like that. And we realized there was a massive market there and it was quite nicely timed with, we were in our late twenties, early thirties, and a lot of our.

Friends were in city and time Paul Cash Rich Professionals, as he said, really looking for something a bit more interesting. And along we came with these 30 odd suggestions of things you could do in a long weekend. And that was things like dog setting and seeing the Northern lights in Swedish flatland or flying overnight to Cape Town or Johannesburg.

And then going out to a game reserve darting a rhino and helping with the relocation of that rhino to another conservation. Program. So really quite epic stuff for a long [00:06:00] weekend and no denying it. There was certainly an element of brag ability among our first few clients. they were sitting back at their trading desk, what do you do the weekend?

Oh, well, I was in Marrakesh racing, motorbikes or whatever. it certainly had a kind of cache to it. and as you said, very quickly, people liked the way we did things and we started selling the rest of the world. So, weirdly, we always thought the big short break was such a powerful initial concept that actually for a few years it worked against us in that a mate would come up and say, oh, I've just been to India with so and so, and I'd be like, why didn't you use us?

He say, well, I thought we just did short breaks. So that took a bit of a reeducation. but yeah, now we sell probably 85 to 90 destinations around the world. Not everywhere, but, pretty good slug of real estate.

Robin Swithinbank: And what's the USP? What is it that you offer now, which sets you apart?

Tom Barber: the million dollar question, I would say a lot of people say they're doing tailor made travel, but it's essentially [00:07:00] glorified off the shelf. I think what we would like to think is that we are truly tailor made travel is the phrase we like to use. So built from the ground up, same clients might go on two or three different time, trips a year.

What they want to get out of that trip might be entirely different. They might be traveling as a couple, traveling as parents with children, traveling on their own, and they're always gonna want something different. So even the client on individual trips is gonna require something different each time, each destination, each time year, what they want to get out of it.

So, do they want some sort of r and r or do they want to get some sort of meaningful experience or to learn something? So it is truly tailor my travel in the sense that every single trip is a blank sheet of paper.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Interesting. And you've been creating these tailor-made holidays in either short form or longer form for a couple of decades now. How have clients' needs and wants changed over that time and how have you adapted in order? To service them.

Tom Barber: another good question. I think, um, [00:08:00] COVID the further away it gets in the rear view mirror. It's difficult to say there were any silver linings to it, particularly for the travel industry. We have a horrendous time of it, but it allowed people to reassess what was important. And I think everybody is after more meaningful experiences now.

a very, that there was a dreadful phrase, revenge travel, which just felt a bit unseen me to me. But I understand the, the sentiment behind it, but it's much more now that. I think people, there's a lot more what we call 3G three generational travel. a lot of people were literally sitting there going, I might not see my, the grandparents again.

So a lot of people now are doing 3G trips. and then there are kinda spinoff to that, such as bonding holidays where just two members of a family are going on holiday together. That could be a grandparent and grandchild or,even a godparent and a godchild just. These moments where you are spending some very precious time.

and [00:09:00] I'm a kind of paid out member. This, I took both my parents, obviously individually on holidays in the last five years, and they have been two of the most special holidays I've ever had. I'd love to think that they would say the same thing, but 

Robin Swithinbank: I'm sure there 

Tom Barber: ask her about that

Robin Swithinbank: we've, we say so often, don't we? That time is the ultimate luxury.

but perhaps the ultimate expression of that time is creating the quality time that you can experience when you are away on holidays together. And maybe that's, fed into the industry, therefore, and, helped sustain it and resurrect it post COVID, which as you say, was clearly a disastrous time for the travel. Sector, talking of a disastrous period, throughout the pa, the past 20 years, there have been good seasons and bad as there are in any industry, in any business, but as we head into the final quarter of 2025, how would you describe the health of the luxury travel sector now?

Tom Barber: I think It is an amazingly resilient sector. Full stop. we started in 2003 and almost immediately SARS came along. And you realize pretty quickly that travel is the lightning world for everything. anything that goes wrong anywhere in the world, [00:10:00] we'll have repercussions for the travel industry.

But it makes you very resilient. So we are, as an industry, industry, extremely good at, Picking up the pieces or adapting or problem solving and to actually get around to answering your question. how is it at the moment? I have a lot of friends who are in property, in art, in other sectors dealing with luxury, and we're also in the same thing.

It's difficult getting people over the line. Not impossible, but I've always thought it actually, it focuses the mind a bit. You think what's working, what's not? Why am I doing that? Could I change this? And I don't think there's any harm in that at all actually. Just really looking at the nuts and bolts, looking under the bonnet and seeing what you can change and what seems to be working.

And I think this comes back to something I'm sure will come onto and which you talk about a lot with all your guesses, knowing your client is unbelievably important at this point everyone is timing their belts a bit, [00:11:00] whether you are, riches creases or not. and we've gotta, we've gotta appreciate that and work just that bit harder.

I think at the analogy I've made recently is, so in the UK I know you have a lot of, listeners from the board, but a lot of our clientele have children private school, and we just have this 27 VAT edition. Now if you look at the average per child per year, that's adding to secondary school, that's around 10 grand.

And the average cost of a original travel holiday is probably 12, 13 grand. this is a serious consideration 

they've also learned from COVID that holidays are non-negotiable. when you're suddenly told, and right on the wall in front of me. there was a moment in 2021, I think it was when the government put out these ads on social media that said it is currently illegal to go on holiday, UK government.

And you're sitting there going, if someone told you 18 months ago that the government would be rendering illegal to go on holiday, you'd have [00:12:00] laughed 

so you've got school fees, holidays are non-negotiable.

Something's gotta give.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. and that's interesting because one or two of those that we've spoken to, throughout this podcast, when they're working in hard luxury, they've often said that they find themselves competing more than ever with experiences. Travel is of course, first and foremost an experience. If you postpone travel, it disappears.

It doesn't come back. That opportunity doesn't come round again. in fact, even last week, Josh, Kern from Brightling was saying to us that, people will often postpone rather than cancel a hard luxury purchase. I still want that really nice brightening watch, but I'm gonna buy it next year instead of this year because actually I'm prioritizing something else, which may well be a travel experience. so it's interesting to hear you, reflect in a similar way. Um.I wonder then, what you're doing to try and communicate that to your audience, to your potential customer. What is it that you're saying to them to recruit them into original travel? to encourage them to not forego, the travel, to make sure that it is a non-negotiable for them, as you say.

Tom Barber: [00:13:00] I think offering much more than just the flight, the hotel, that's all fairly standard stuff, but looking at every single step of the process. So we have. What we call original services. So before we go on holiday, we'll be booking your seats in prep, getting you your boarding passes the day before you go, which for me is one of the most irritating half an hours of any prep of a 

Robin Swithinbank: if you use the British Airways app, sorry,

Tom Barber: Exactly. and having four kids, it, nothing. The data never seems to save That's a real damper on it. when you get to the airport, even if you're not flying, business class, you have access to a lounge. You are ushered through security, fast track, et cetera, et cetera, stuff like that before you even get on the flight.

And then when you're in destination, every single original travel destination has a concierge, if not more than one concierge. And this is not someone who's actually just sitting in the office in London. These are. Locals or expats who live in city 

they in cahoots with [00:14:00] our guys in London are working with the best guides or even people who aren't necessarily a guide. 

So these are the sort of things we are reminding our clients that we can do, and that is hopefully gonna get 'em over line.

Robin Swithinbank: One of the things that, I spotted in your material in preparation for this conversation is that one of your areas of specialism is sabbaticals, sort of career sabbaticals. So you're seeing a rise in people taking these, and if so, when and where are they going?

Tom Barber: that is absolutely something we have been doing for years and I'd like to think we're probably the best intro at it as well. And there was a lovely article in the FT weekend, this. This weekend by Thomasina Myers, the chef who took her family to Mexico for six months. Now obviously she owns and runs Wacka, which is a excellent Mexican restaurant, and so it was lovely for her to take her children and her husband somewhere that she has known and love for years.

Anyway, it was a beautiful article that she wrote and there's a couple of quotes from me about family Sebas in there and then a kind [00:15:00] of how to guide at the end because I. it is a 62% up since the pandemic. A and actually, again, there's another silver lining from the pandemic.

I think people realize that if done well, online learning is a thing, it can be done. there's also been a growth in tutors, tutor agencies who can basically hook you up with a tutor, and people going on sabbatical for like more of the months one academic term. Or either taking a tutor or, doing online learning from school.

Or you can buy packages that mirror the exam board that your children are gonna be sitting. So you can take the children outta school and not worry about the academic side, but also know that if it's well planned, you are gonna have them learning a new language, learning new skills, seeing how other people other cultures operate.

it can be an unbelievably transformative moment. Some of the feedback we've had from people is just epic, she's a totally different girl from three months [00:16:00] ago or whatever. it's a very, verybig growth area 

Robin Swithinbank: Really interesting, goodness. I was worried I was gonna be thinking about my next holiday as a result of this conversation. Now I'm thinking about my sabbatical, which I didn't know I was gonna need, but suddenly that seems very attractive. Look, I, it's really interesting to think about what motivates travel decisions.

Clearly there's a big motivation behind going away of six months, as you've just outlined. But,in recent years, I dunno how far back we go here. But the sector has been pushing ecotourism, voluntourism, you mentioned Philan. Tourism, which is a word I'm struggling to say apparently, but Phil and tourism, all these are terms that have entered the travel vernacular in relatively recent living memory. But I'm interested to know how permanent these motivations are, because most people are holidays about, it's about family or it's about me time. But actually how for how long are we going to be wanting to have these more meaningful experiences as you referred to them earlier?

Tom Barber: I think it's very interesting to note what happened in about 2007. responsible tourism was the buzz phrase in. [00:17:00] Travel. It was everywhere. our companies were starting just to be responsible. Tourism companies and financial crash comes along and it just disappears because everyone goes back to, primary instincts, which is, I want to go on holiday.

I, I need a break. and I don't really care if it's, slightly build carbon emissions. I, that's a very cynical way of putting it, but. it's back with a vengeance now again, post COVID. and it's much better articulated now. I think that things like flight scam, the,flying chain, the Swedish froze it.

It's not going away this time. but what I think is there's no, any travel company worth it has to have a stance on this, because people are just gonna be like, well, come on. Flights are three to 4% of all carbon emissions, and you therefore are part of the problem unless you're part of the solution.

so I think most luxury clients nowadays assume that you are doing the right thing, [00:18:00] then you can get into the kind of semantics of it, and then, well, not much, actually, it's much more than the, so the nitty gritty of are you offsetting or are you absorbing the carbon? that's where you can really drill down and see.

 he's doing the right thing. And this again, I'm sure will come onto it, but being part of Voya demand, that is a huge advantage for us because we, as part of the group, are able to set up some really amazing projects, reforestation projects around the world that if we were just a smaller entity just in the uk, we would not be able to do that.

So to go back to the definition of offset versus absorb, we're not. Kicking the can down the road and passing it on someone else to sort it out. we actually do the absorption ourself in, reforestation projects around the world that we have helped set up and that we monitor ourselves. So it's very much, we have a, an exact record at all moments of what we're up to.

and the fact is that if you go on an original travel holiday, all your carbon emissions from your flights and your brand transportation [00:19:00] are covered. So, so, absorbed, not offset. 

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. And the website's quite quick to talk about. A hundred percent, isn't it? a hundred percent.

carbon absorption. So you feel that's now a minimum requirement for your clients, is they like the fact that you don't, they don't even have to think about it

because you've already guaranteed it upfront.

Is that the thinking?

Tom Barber: well, I think it might not be, the absolute, flincher, but if company A is offering 50% off or is offsetting. And company B original travel are guaranteeing a hundred percent including your grant application. And the aim by the way, is in the next two or three years to double that to be 200%.

So, you are really making a significant difference there. I think it's a big consideration, not primary, but a big consideration.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, very much nice to have perhaps, or maybe you've got a better expression than that, but, talking motivations. One thing that's interesting about your website is that it offers. price estimates at the head of your travel itineraries. Is that a reflection of this client price sensitivity that, that we were talking about a little bit earlier?

Or have you always done that? Do you think that it's your [00:20:00] client is keen to know first at the outset, how much is this going to cost me?

Tom Barber: I think a. You have to, I think it is very difficult though, because if it is truly tailor made and built from the bottom up, it could be, it could cost 50 grand or it could cost three grand.

but to give some sort of estimate to the itinerary that you are seeing on screen. I think that's important. But even then it's very difficult because,it could be high season, late season, business class, economy class, et cetera, et cetera. So the wording in there is, it's a bit fiddly, but it's like this is an estimate of the from price potentially.

But, we can't do any more than that. 'cause every single trip that's even close to that will be completely different given what time of year, how far Avan book. But I think you've gotta have some sort of guesting.

Robin Swithinbank: what sort of percentage of your clients are likely to choose a trip on the basis that they will be traveling to somewhere where the objects of desire, those luxury products that they might be interested in are. Going to be for sale at perhaps a [00:21:00] cheaper price in that, in whichever country it is or whichever city it is they're going to.

Obviously, there's so much conversation at the moment about what's gonna happen with American tourists because of the tariffs. There's so much conversation about the Chinese and whether they're gonna start traveling and spending in the same way they were before COVID. Is that a factor for your clients, or do you not really see that?

Tom Barber: not really, actually, interestingly, the one thing we have noticed has been post pandemic. The influx of American tourists into Europe has been gargantuanand it has led to. An enormous increase in prices at not even just the top hotels. they've all whacked their prices up and now they're slightly sitting there going, can, how far can we reduce these without looking at mugs?

that we've seen Chinese clients. I think there's some places like Cambodia where it's actually getting quite busy with, because it's obviously, it's almost domestic tourism for. For Chinese tourists, it's something we have to factor in, but [00:22:00] it's not on the whole that's something for us to warn or tell our clients back.

not for them to necessarily worry.

Robin Swithinbank: Interesting. You use the word busy because, in a similar vein to all of this, we recognize the world is very well mapped now. There aren't many hidden corners out there. People tend to have a pretty good awareness of. Of the top 10 destinations they might have on their lifetime bucket list or something like that. and of course, the volume of would be travelers continues to rise, not just as the global population increases, but as, as theoretically the world becomes wealthier. many of the world's popular, most popular destinations are now heaving with tourists. ruin some might say. most years, we see these cues of people at the summit of Mount Everest, which is five and a half miles up in the sky.

So does the world have a tourism problem, and if so, what's the solution?

Tom Barber: It has a massive tourism problem. And again, rather like with carbon emissions, we all need to be part of the solution and not the problem. So we have this was, I spent a lot of COVID Puzzling around this stuff and we came up with something called Kintsugi Travel. [00:23:00] And the logic there is, so Kintsugi is a Japanese concept of taking a beautiful piece of ceramics that's been broken and piecing it back together using gold lac of work.

And then the consideration is that the repaired piece is more beautiful than the original was because it's flawed beautiful, but it's now even more of an original 'cause of what it looks like post. And our logic was we have some serious problems in the industry, over tourism and flights between places that are literally like an hour apart in a car.

it's just, that's just was not sustainable. So we came up with this concept. We continue travel and we were gonna be the gold lacker. It helped but travel back together more beautiful than it was beforehand. And under tourism is a massive part of that. Don't push more people into the sausage machine.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Under tourism is a word that jumped out, from your materials, from your website. When I was looking into this,what in the world is under tourism?

Tom Barber: [00:24:00] So Instagram and TikTok are doing a terrible job of making some places unbelievably popular. The world is an enormous place. and there are plenty of places one can go that aren't full of people. that's incumbent on us either to go to somewhere completely different or to go at a different time of year from the halt.

so we have this thing called the Secret Series. you don't need to be sending people to the end of the earth, just to get away from people. The secret series is all about the classic destinations, Italy, Japan, et cetera, have unbelievable places within them that aren't for the people.

and you still get. The food, the culture, the art, the language you get all those things that make Japan incredibly special. They're just not full of people. And quite often you even fly to the same airport. a classic example would be flying to Naples in Italy and instead of heading to the Murphy Coast, which is to be avoided [00:25:00] in some way, into instead head south from Naples airport and go to Cilento Which is beautiful, rural countryside, amazing beaches full of discerning Italians, not full of other people, tourists. So it isn't that difficult actually. And under tourism is, our duty frankly. I think spread the love a bit as well. that can be secret series IE in the existing classic destinations, or it could be further afield.

It doesn't matter. We just need to spread the people and consequently the tourist dollar.

Robin Swithinbank: It's a rather paradoxical situation, isn't it? Because as we know, hell is other people and as soon as we travel somewhere, we are the other people.

We, we create the problem, don't we? I'm not quite sure what the solution is there, although I appreciate that there are clearly plenty of places in the world that one can explore, which are, underserved by the tourism industry. but I suppose the long term problem becomes if, somewhere becomes popular, then eventually it becomes full. And then, I dunno, you get, maybe you keep spinning it and you keep finding the new places around the world. But the world is very well mapped now.

And you've talked about Instagram and [00:26:00] goodness, Instagram and it's algorithms continue to with sandy beaches and snow top mountains and, sangrias over sunset and all that kind of stuff. do you think that. the social media age has been a good thing for tourism or has it created more problems than it's solved.

Tom Barber: It is been a profoundly bad thing for not for. Tourism. lots more people are traveling, but it's been a profoundly bad thing for the places that get, too much focus. . There's lots of amazing footage of beautiful uns spot beaches. There's now increasingly, and whether this is algorithmic to me, I don't know, but I'm now seeing the kind of turn the camera, 180 degree shots of people queuing down a hill to some tiny beach in Meca and it's like the Everest.

Shot of endless people killing, but on some tiny beach of Melk, which it's just enough to put you off for life, frankly. So I think this is a good thing. There's a bit of reaction. unfortunately the fact that we're having to see the retaliation also on Instagram means, we're all hang out [00:27:00] in that particular channel, which is a bit depressing.

But no, I think it's incredibly dangerous.

Robin Swithinbank: Interesting because you could argue at the same time that actually it's been a real boon for the travel industry, couldn't you? Because it's made people lust after travel experiences more than ever and for travel companies. Therefore, that's surely a good thing, isn't it?

Tom Barber: Yes, but the problem is, even when someone's pitch is I'm, I've just discovered the new X, Y, Z, then everyone else jump onto that bandwagon, and then that next place becomes inundated almost immediately. I think it's not just the volume of people going there, it's also. The reason they're going there, it's very tick boxy.

get your selfie stick out. Bali's another place. So it seems to be, there's some waterfall in Bali I saw yesterday, but just a huge cue. And then people having to wait for someone to take their 17 selfie shots from different angles on. it's just, that's not the reason to travel.

Robin Swithinbank: No, thank goodness. I'm starting to remember moments of irritation from my own most recent holiday. I was in the States this summer and we went to the Four Corners, as a [00:28:00] family where the, those four states meet, which is just something quite fun to do because it, you can put your feet in two different states at once and if there, there are four of us and each one of us was in a different state at the same time, while also holding hands. but we had to stand in a queue and wait. 20 minutes because there were a number of people in front of us who were doing exactly that. There was a, there was one person in the middle of this little circle, and then there was someone else running around taking pictures from every single angle while the rest of us just stood there like Muppets waiting for, for our opportunity.

Now, again, we are the other people there. we are creating the hell ourselves. I recognize that. I see the, the awkwardness of what I'm trying to say and the potentially the hypocrisy in it. I think we all recognize that sort of influencer on holiday, whether they're actually an influencer or not, is almost irrelevant.

It's the sort of the posing and the selfie sticks and the cameras and so on, which does clog up beautiful destinations. do you work with influencers? do you think that influencers are healthy for the industry? Do.

Tom Barber: I think there is a very. Interesting divide. The best influences are superb, unbelievably hardworking. They [00:29:00] really drill down into what their brief is for us, if they're doing things with different travel companies, every different travel company will have different angle and they are interested in finding out what we want to achieve from sending them somewhere.

and they can be superb.  a lot of them are absolute chances. though

And I think that's the same in any field, isn't it? you get some people who are unbelievably good at their job, diligent, dedicated, absolutely excellent, ambassadors for their industry and some people who.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Well, let's not end on that note. Let's look ahead instead, where are we all gonna be traveling to next year and beyond, and what kind of holidays are we going to be asking original travel to arrange for us?

Tom Barber: well, we've got a few places lined up for next year. I'm gonna be really annoying not telling them specifically 'cause we're doing a big travel terms piece in the next month or so. I definitely think. Rather than destinations. I think the Secret series, it is very interesting when you, when we analyze what people click on our newsletters, the secret series really resonates with people.

So [00:30:00] people going to the quieter corners of the classic destinations, I think that will be a very big piece. That's it. And I think Family sabbaticals is only going in one direction. it is a, an amazingly wonderful thing for people who've. they may have worked too hard for the last 10 years and then realize they have barely seen their kids.

And to take 'em outta school for one term and go and experience something amazing together is golden.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Or people looking for their own private corner of paradise, I suppose there's no surprise in that, but. the growth of the sabbatical is perhaps more interesting and that's, a trend that we'll be keeping an eye on, I'm sure. Great. Well, Tom, look, my credit card is indeed trembling in my back pocket after the conversation as thoughts of adventure exploration and summer holidays that, of course, in, in the Northern Hemisphere are now just past, do, begins to flood the mind.

But anyway, seriously, it's been a real pleasure to learn more about your business and to hear about your luxury travel sector insights. Thank you so much for joining us on the Luxury Society Podcast.

Tom Barber: It's been a great pleasure. Thanks so much. 

Robin Swithinbank: next up, we're heading into another time [00:31:00] zone and to Shanghai, where we find Jack Royce and managing director of the DLG company, China Consulting. Jack joined us early in season one and I've been very much looking forward to getting him back on the podcast.

Jack, welcome back. How are you?

Jacques Roizen: I am good, Robin. Delighted to come again. Last time we spoke about, the Chinese luxury market and its evolution and I'm looking forward to circling back on that topic.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, let's come back to it. China is a market that has consistently underperformed analyst expectations since the pandemic. When you came on the pod a few months back, you reported signs. There might be a turn in the road ahead. It's now September, early September. How's that prediction looking?

Jacques Roizen: I think, we were less optimistic than we should have been. the good news is this, in Q3 of last year, the luxury market, the domestic luxury market in China was down 25%. In Q4 of last year, it was down 20%. In Q1 of this year, it was down 15%. In Q2 of this year it was down 12% [00:32:00] so there's clearly an improvement line.

Okay. the second, indicator that we had after the last time we spoke is that LVMH released their results for Q2 this year. And when they did, what I noticed was that their performance for Asia, excluding Japan, was at minus 6% in Q2 versus minus 11% in Q1, which means A, a significant acceleration.

And what we're seeing now in Q3 is that a lot of the largest luxury brands. That had been single or double digit negative for the last two years are for the first time positive and in some cases high single digit positive in July and August. And so that's incredibly encouraging because Q3, I was hoping that we would touch bottom in Q3.

I didn't expect us to touch bottom early July. And it looks like we did, and that [00:33:00] was confirmed in August, September is not a very significant month.

Robin Swithinbank: previously the slowdown was pretty category agnostic. It seemed to affect everyone and every brand across every category. Is it is the same true this year's improving performance, or are there specific categories where you are seeing these signs of recovery?

Jacques Roizen: I, I think the two categories that were, damaged the most are the fashion, apparel and the and the leather goods. And on the other hand, the watches. Okay. I'm not seeing a true turnaround or rebound on the watches of the Chinese domestic luxury market.

Yet on the fashion and leather side, it's undeniable. It's happening right in front of our eyes in July and August.

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, so the watch category has some catching up to do. the FHS figures released by, That's the Federation of the Swiss watch industry, run in parallel to what you just said. There's no signs of a great rebound there, certainly. But, trying to think geographically for a [00:34:00] second. Are these results typical across the whole country or are they being driven by particular regions or cities?

Jacques Roizen: I think they're driven by the main, according to the data that we have, they're driven by the main cities, but the main cities are the largest portion of the revenue in China. So, when you're, recording a very good performance in Shanghai and Beijing and Shezhen, and Guanjo and Shang do, you, you've already covered a very large portion of your revenue in China for luxury brand.

Robin Swithinbank: Fair enough. Yeah. And the question people will ask is, what's behind the change in China's luxury economic climate? What's driving it?

Jacques Roizen: I think first of all, let's be fair, this is coming on the heels of two plus years of negative numbers. The comparable base is much lower than it used to be. And so at some point you've hit the bottom. Okay. And I think that's what just happened. Okay. at a consumer level, I think there are two trends happening at the same time.

on one hand, there are [00:35:00] some consumers that are going for lower price luxury. And so they're fueling the success of coach who's done a spectacular job capitalizing on that. they're fueling the success of Lapu Gold, which has, attracted a lot of attention. and then you've got a different segment of customers that are saying, when I spend on luxury, I wanna go for the pinnacle of luxury.

And so they're spending, they're refocusing their spend on. Ms. Chanel, LV, Jo and barely more than that.

Robin Swithinbank: It is interesting you mentioned Lapu gold because I was gonna ask you what proportion, if any of the Italian tide can be accounted for by consumption of domestic Chinese luxury brands rather than more sort of traditional European labels that you've just mentioned.

Jacques Roizen: I think, Chinese domestic brands are still a minuscule portion of the luxury market in China, including in, in these categories. La Lapu Gold is taking market share from local gold jewelers [00:36:00] and from luxury brands. I think in the case of the shares, they're stealing from luxury, international brands.

They're benefiting from the fact that consumers were in a value preservation mindset. In the case of the shares, they're stealing from local players. They're taking advantage of the fact that many of the local players haven't reacted to the LAO Gold positioning. Is it sustainable? I'm not sure.

Robin Swithinbank: It's a little early to make observation perhaps. but how are brands responding? Should they be optimistic in their outlook? Should they be cautious? where do they need to position themselves and are there any things they need to be doing in order to try and capitalize on the fact that perhaps the market has indeed bottomed down?

Jacques Roizen: I fir. First of all, I think a lot of the brands that are seeing a spectacularly better Q3 this year, are the brands that have been consistent in their investment in China. and second of all. You know my answer today in the [00:37:00] context of this Q3 spectacular performance is not different from my answer 12 months ago in the context of a incredibly challenging Q3 performance last year, which is at the end of the day, the Chinese.

Market is between 25 and 45% of the revenue of luxury brands one by one. And so you cannot afford not to spend in China because whether the Chinese consumer buys in China, or whether she buys in Tokyo or in Europe, she lives in China and she needs to be marketed to in China. And so my advice would be the same as it was a year ago, which is make sure you invest in China.

Because it's too big a market to be ignored.

Robin Swithinbank: You mentioned, tourism very briefly, there are these figures also reflected in outbound tourist spend, or is again, too early to say.

Jacques Roizen: So no, I don't have data on Chinese consumption outside China. W what? What I find [00:38:00] interesting is that we're starting to hear about growth of. non-Chinese consumers buying in China, because as China has been, making, tourism, inbound tourism a lot easier by getting rid of all the visas.

So you've got over 50 countries now. Most European countries, can come to China without a, visa. You can come from 30 to 60 days depending on the countries, and they've, really been pushing a duty free policy in the last six months that is attracting consumers from outside China who are visiting China, taking advantage of the price harmonization of some of the brands.

And as a result of the duty free are getting fantastic prices in China.

Robin Swithinbank: we should try and look ahead because, if indeed the market has bottomed out, Q3 is, potentially going to, reflect that and Q4 [00:39:00] beyond when we get into. 26, what do you expect to happen? Is the Chinese luxury market going to become the, the engine room of the luxury industry once again, is it gonna return to growth and start driving the global luxury industry?

Jacques Roizen: So I think that first of all, everyone understands that the fact that Q3 and likely Q4 will be positive doesn't mean that the whole year will be positive. And so China will remain a, mid to high. Single digit, negative market for 2025 as a whole. and but to go to the specificity of your question, I think it's reasonable to expect, single digit growth next year for the Chinese domestic luxury market.

But you're not talking about a mature market. It's, after the 20 plus years of, rapid expansion and artificial acceleration during the pandemic, a correction post pandemic, [00:40:00] because the travel restrictions were removed, like we're now in a mature market and so we're gonna have mature market growth rates.

but it's gonna be the first time that the market is barely better than flat. for tens of years. everybody was positive, including the losers. The people that were losing market share were double digit positive, and for the last three years, even the winners were negative. And now for the first time, you're gonna see the winners being positive and the losers being negative. And it's gonna create a lot of clarity for people like you and I that are looking at the market and trying to understand what's happening in China.

Robin Swithinbank: Really fascinating. Jack. As we know, the global economic landscape is in flux following the introduction of US tariffs. So brands will no doubt be encouraged to hear signs of a maturing market, signs that it may well be emerging from its post. Pandemic slump. and moreover, we'll be hoping that it becomes a driving narrative into 2026.

The timing could be mission critical for some luxury sector players. We'll see. Look, let's leave it there. Thank you so much for coming on and [00:41:00] painting that picture for us. I hope you'll come on again later this season. Thanks,

Jacques Roizen: I look forward to it. Robin, thank you very much for having me. I.

Robin Swithinbank: Jack. Take care. 

Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now.

I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.