The Crown and the Cup: Ryder Cup Europe's CEO Guy Kinnings on golf, luxury and Rolex

In this episode of The Luxury Society Podcast, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh with Guy Kinnings, CEO European Tour Group and Ryder Cup Europe, talk about the power of sport in shaping the future of luxury.

With a career spanning decades in golf and sports management, Kinnings reflects on the global expansion of the game, the commercial power of the Ryder Cup and why sport has become one of the most compelling platforms for luxury partnerships.

From the global rise of golf to the commercial might of the Ryder Cup, Kinnings shares why sport has become one of the most effective platforms for luxury storytelling and brand building.

Tune in for:

• How the Ryder Cup & golf generally is becoming a world-class sporting spectacle
• The globalisation of golf across Europe, the Middle East and Asia
• Why luxury brands are investing in sport sponsorships & the cross over with fashion
• Balancing heritage with commercial growth
• The future of fan engagement in golf and beyond

Brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. 

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield 2025, https://www.fallowfieldmason.com/ 

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:01] Robin Swithinbank: Hello, Hello, and welcome back to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you in association with Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, Robin Swithinbank. 

[00:00:08] David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh.. 

[00:00:10] Robin Swithinbank: Later this week as sports fans will know, golf Ride Cup rolls into New York as the US bids to seize back the old trophy lost to Europe when the biennial event was last contested in Rome two years ago.

[00:00:22] Robin Swithinbank: And so in timely fashion, we are delighted that we will shortly be speaking with Chief executive of the European Tour Group and Ryder Cup Europe guy Kennings. With guy. We'll be looking at the symbiotic relationship between professional tournament golf and luxury, and at how golf's long running partnership with Rolex has contributed to the sports contemporary profile and influence.

[00:00:43] Robin Swithinbank: And then stick around because once the final putt has dropped, we'll be swinging back over to Shanghai and to DGS Pablo Maron who'll be sharing some of the group's recent findings that illustrate how a fresh focus on user-generated content is reshaping luxury brand behaviors in [00:01:00] China, but for now, David, on with the show.

[00:01:02] David Sadigh: Let's do it. The Ryder Cupis a magical event. We're incredibly lucky to have it in golf. It will be a cauldron, at bethpage, and it's a wonderful venue. and that first tee is like almost nothing else in sport. 60% of the audience in Rome were under 45, which is really good for a sport that in the past has been seen as being a little bit middle aged and bad jumpers and little male dominated.

[00:01:31] Guy Kinnings: Rolex it's where it started. It's ubiquitous in golf and tennis and therefore they have a history and a heritage like no other brand

[00:01:39] 

[00:01:39] Guy Kinnings:   golf has a great strength. I think the stat is 90% of Fortune 500 CEOs play golf. we know that senior businessmen and businesswomen are drawn to the sport, and that fans are more likely to be drawn to luxury goods  

[00:01:54] 

[00:01:55] Guy Kinnings: it's gonna be extremely close. and it could even be one of those [00:02:00] Ryder cups where it comes down to the last put on the green. 

[00:02:04] Robin Swithinbank: So in a week when the Eye of the Sporting World will be turning to New York for golf's Biennial Ryder Cup contest between the US and Europe, David and I are honored , to welcome onto the Luxury Society Podcast, guy Kinnings Chief Executive of both the European Tour Group and the Ryder Cup Europe. Guy trained as a lawyer before moving to the prominent global sports and media agency IMG, where he spent almost 30 years in 2018. He was recruited by GULs European Tour or DP World Tour as it's now marketed before being appointed to his current role last year. Golf's relationship with luxury goes back longer than most of us will recall. In fact, it was IMGs founder Mark McCormack, who aligned Rolex to golf, so-called Big three of Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicholas, and Gary Player, way back in 1967. In doing so, he created a blueprint that has been copied and pasted by countless luxury brands across the sports universe since, for its part, Rolex continues to be the most visible luxury brand in the sport. [00:03:00] As a result, brand golf is now viewed as an ultra reliable platform for value adjacent brands seeking to amplify and elevate perceptions of their products and activities before what is recognized to be an international and frequently affluent audience. And indeed the Luxury Society Podcast is among them.

[00:03:15] Robin Swithinbank: And our thanks to our friends at Rolex for helping to facilitate today's conversation. So Guy joins us with this year's Ryder Cup Glimmering just below the horizon. Guy, thanks so much for coming on the Luxury Society Podcast with just over a week to go. As we record before the first pairings, step onto the first tee at Black. How are you?

[00:03:33] Guy Kinnings: I am very well, thank you. thanks for having me. We, um, we've finished, Appropriately enough, we finished a big Rolex series event only last night, the B-M-W-P-G-A Championship at Wentworth, which went extremely well. And as you rightly say, we now all look forward to what is,one of the biggest things we have in golf and in all of sports.

[00:03:50] Guy Kinnings: So yeah, we're all very excited 

[00:03:52] Robin Swithinbank: Oh, I don't think you're alone. I must declare some level of bias at the head of this conversation. The Ryder Cup is, it's my sporting highlight of any year, bar none. And I'm a little beside [00:04:00] myself with anticipation of this year's event, I can assure you. But, uh, I mean, for you, I can only imagine the weeks leading up to the Ryder Cup are among, well, the most exciting, perhaps the most hectic, maybe even the most demanding seasons in your work life.

[00:04:11] Robin Swithinbank: how are you feeling as the clock counts down to, the start of the event?

[00:04:14] Guy Kinnings: it's very interesting. the Ryder Cupis a magical event. We're incredibly lucky to have it in golf. it's unlike anything else probably in sport. You have players out there playing for their country, the continent, for each other, for the badge of honor on the chest. and just that, and it's a little different for us.

[00:04:32] Guy Kinnings: We, we stage the tournaments in Europe, so we're responsible for staging as we were in Paris and in Rome. We will be in Ireland in 27. This isn't a away match, which means that we still have, heavy responsibility around the captain. His backroom team, our backroom team, the players, the team, everyone around it, and of course our broadcasters, our sponsors, our partners.

[00:04:53] Guy Kinnings: So it's still incredibly, busy. Luckily enough, I have a wonderful team. one of the things [00:05:00] that we work with and, lucky Luke Donald is an old friend. he's suffered me as a, as his agent when he was world number one and doing his playing career. And he's proven to be a, a,a, an exceptional.

[00:05:11] Guy Kinnings: Ryder Cup captain, and we've been very lucky. We've had a string of brilliant captains, but he really has shown, and from the outset, he always said, this is a real team effort. This is us all pulling together, not just the players, the caddies, the families, but everyone around them, and in fact, the whole of the tour.

[00:05:29] Guy Kinnings: So in many ways we see this as. For the team playing for all of those things that you said, the flag, but also for our tour. So for us, it's incredibly important every two years, every four years as a home Ryder Cup, and it means a lot to us. the success of a European team can have a very positive effect for the good of the tour, for the confidence of everyone involved.

[00:05:53] Guy Kinnings: So as you say, there's a degree of anticipation as we look forward to it. We like going to big, [00:06:00] exciting cities and. Paris and Rome were wonderful. New York is a perfect place to go to now. And, you'll have passionate crowds, we'll have a lot of noise. 

[00:06:09] Robin Swithinbank: No doubt. 

[00:06:10] Guy Kinnings: exactly. But in, you know, as they all say that, that's part of the magic.

[00:06:15] Robin Swithinbank: No completely. 

[00:06:16] Guy Kinnings: want.

[00:06:16] Robin Swithinbank: Yes, very much so.and we've been hearing stories even in this, in the past few days about, European players having VR headsets to try and experience the levels of abuse they might receive from the crowds, which, did amuse me. that's a really good example of the forensic levels of preparation that the captains, and the wider team behind them, put into each and every rider cup these days to find that magical 1% that'll tip the scales in their favor. Can you indulge me a little bit? Just take us inside the ropes if you're able to. How close are you to those captains? You're obviously very close to Luke and to the teams, and what can you tell us about what these final days will be looking like for them before the rubber hits the road on Friday?

[00:06:54] Guy Kinnings: you've gotta remember, we, the European team. Ever since the Europeans themselves rejoined, [00:07:00] the Great Britain and Ireland team in 79 have punched way above their weight 

[00:07:03] Guy Kinnings: in, 

[00:07:03] Guy Kinnings: in world ranking terms, form terms and Europe have got this astonishing record and there's almost a sort of template they return to.

[00:07:11] Guy Kinnings: But each captain adds an their own bit of style and, Europe got soundly beaten in whistling Straits. It was very tough,

[00:07:19] Guy Kinnings: uh, Ryder Cup away. It was during COVID very difficult, strong American team who I think, uh, it was, you know, mooted would be dominant for a long while. And we went to Rome with the goal of being more competitive and the job that Luke and his team around him and the players did, gave us that astonishing victory.

[00:07:37] Guy Kinnings: And then you look forward to New York and it was one of the past captains and sitting with myself and Luke said winning away is utterly different from winning at home. And so we normally go through a little process of working out who should be the right next captain.

[00:07:51] Guy Kinnings: And the team voted loudly, at their, at the prize giving in Rome when they started chanting two more years. So, in a sense, although Luke, took a little while to [00:08:00] confirm, He's been mentally preparing for that. And I would say, and I've not been there for all of them, but my sense is that the team is going in as well prepared as it can possibly be.

[00:08:10] Guy Kinnings: The team behind the team, the players themselves, my own team who've just been astonishing, have given that team every opportunity andthey were all together. in Wentworth last week for the PGA we just talked about, with the exception of Sep, who had to be at home for family reason, but even he joined remotely for a team gathering during the week.

[00:08:29] Guy Kinnings: They all hopped on a plane last night. after the end of the tournament. They'll do a couple of days practice trip, and there's lots of things that they know they're gonna be doing there. Lots of things that Luke's got up his sleeve, all of which will help build. There's an astonishing team spirit already.

[00:08:46] Guy Kinnings: We've seen, there's a lot of consistency in the team itself, as they say. It's 11 of the same players and a brother, and a lot of consistency in the backroom team, and that's good. That helps. But equally, it's gotta be done differently. So they'll be [00:09:00] spending a couple of days at Bethpage in New York, they'll then disperse, stay in the right time zone, and then all gather.

[00:09:06] Guy Kinnings: on Monday morning. and I think that has proven and hopefully will prove to be a good formula to give them the very best chance. But I think the important element is also that whilst they'll know what they would need to do, there's a very clear plan. Luke is a man with a plan and he will have plans A, B, and C as they're required.

[00:09:25] Guy Kinnings: there is very much an ability that they will have and it is a great team behind that team. To be able to think on their feet as it's required, as things will happen, as they always will. Nothing goes entirely to plan, and it will be a cauldron, at bethpage, and it's a wonderful venue. and that first tee is like almost nothing else in sport.

[00:09:45] Guy Kinnings: The,the atmosphere hair goes up on the back of your neck just thinking about it and the noise that there was in Rome. And it'll certainly be no quieter in, in New York. I think. Exactly. It is very exciting. but we've all gotta keep our, Luke is a [00:10:00] cool, calm operator. The players are ready, they know what they're doing, so we have to maintain the same level of Cool.

[00:10:05] David Sadigh: Yeah. look, I could talk to you about, life inside the ropes at, the Ryder Cup all day, but, we really ought to move on. Yeah, absolutely. you know, our first episode,that Robin and I recorded, when we launched the Luxury Society Podcast, with Antoine, per the CEO of Tag Heuer, just after they announced the LVMH announced the partnership with Formula One. And, obviously golf is also like one of the most, let's say, strategic sport as far as the luxury industry is concerned.

[00:10:30] David Sadigh: So I was quite interested in trying to,look with you at the health of golf as a spectator sport. we know it's been on TV broadcast staple for years and often,common huge, audience figures just at the top tournaments attract huge crowds. what trends are you observing in tournament attendance and television audience figures?

[00:10:49] Guy Kinnings: Yeah, it's a very interesting question because as we know. People consume sport and entertainment in different ways, and therefore, generally across all sports, there's a little bit of a [00:11:00] reduction in the traditional linear viewership of sports. We've been very lucky in, in golf. It's been very strong, it's stayed much the same.

[00:11:07] Guy Kinnings: for us, what we do in the uk, sky Sports and other broadcasters around the world. There's been a strong reaction. We've been able to keep, average viewer figures. Broadly the same. We've restructured our tour last year. Ryder Cup always provides an amazing peak. whatever happens, even if it's a very reliable property, it feels close.

[00:11:30] Guy Kinnings: It's great viewership. But across the tour, and we restructured our tour, we created some global swings. so we are Gulf Global Tour. It shows us around the world and then we put in a thing called the back nine. Very creatively, nine tournaments. Luckily enough, some of our oldest, most historic national opens.

[00:11:47] Guy Kinnings: And then we brought in some playoffs and we had really strong figures. We were 13% up last year. It's been very strong again this year. we had Rory doing Rory heroics in [00:12:00] Ireland just a week ago, winning in a playoff there. We had another playoff last night at Wentworth, so our back nine is looking good.

[00:12:07] Guy Kinnings:  and I think that that will bode well for the figures this year. We always have great peaks. We have a co sanctioned event in Scotland. the Genesis Scottish Open and as I said, the Amgen Irish Open National opens. Those were really strong and it's been good in, North America as well. The PGA tour themselves, I think are over 20% up, on their figures in CBS.

[00:12:26] Guy Kinnings: So broadly, I'd say we're happy with that. I think in terms of, as you talk about, customers attending, ticketing. yeah, premium experience stuff. Those have been very strong and I think, and we'll, I'm sure we'll come to it later, we've slightly adapted the product, made it very appealing for people who are coming to the tournaments and we've been encountering sold out events where we never had before, and I think  golf is growing.

[00:12:50] Guy Kinnings: Growth survived. COVID, which was very hard for everyone, but actually came out quite strong. A lot of people were able to play it, which they hadn't done before they're stuck with the sport [00:13:00] and they want to come along to events. And we've adapted the product. We think the golf is always very strong.

[00:13:05] Guy Kinnings: Players do a great job for us, but we built other things around it. Wentworth was, we called it the Festival of Golf, and that has been born out with some really strong, figures in,on the consumer side.

[00:13:16] David Sadigh: guy, what can you tell us about golf's audience more specifically? Like, who's following the professional game? What measures are you taking to continue to build interest, and especially to reach new generations?

[00:13:28] Guy Kinnings: Yeah, We are seeing what we believe is a sort of a geographic and a demographic growth. north America remains the biggest golfing market. There are strong markets around the world, Japan, Korea, and others. But where we travel, as I said, we call ourselves Golf's Global Tour.

[00:13:44] Guy Kinnings: We announced a schedule last week, 44 tournaments, 25 different countries. These international swings showcase how international, global we are, the diversity of the tour, and we've seen real growth in certain markets. As I [00:14:00] said Perhaps some of the obvious ones in Korea, Japan. certainly in Spain, we've just announced the the Ryder Cup in 31 is going to Spain, very strong in Scotland.

[00:14:08] Guy Kinnings: So we're seeing that geographic growth. We're also seeing a demographic growth. the ability to engage through social media using influencers, and creating. Really compelling content. we know what we do. We know we put on good tournaments around the world, but we also know we make really good award-winning content that is competitive with kind of any other areas in sport and outside of it.

[00:14:32] Guy Kinnings: And we've won awards for that and that allows us to engage with a different audience a little bit. I think those to me are the areas that I think the greatest growth.

[00:14:41] David Sadigh: can you develop the social media port more specifically, like, which platform? what do you guys do to engage with this new generation of, golf enthusiast?

[00:14:50] Guy Kinnings: one, we use the players themselves who are. Pretty social media savvy. They recognize the value in growing their own brands, and if growing their own brands helps us, [00:15:00] we welcome them. We slightly laughed at them. We created a, an influencer clinic. I've used the wrong

[00:15:06] David Sadigh: Influencer clinic.

[00:15:07] Guy Kinnings: if you look online, we created a training for influencers and we use some of our players.

[00:15:13] Guy Kinnings: And they laughed at themselves. But the truth is what they do and they are very generous with their time. they themselves focus hard on developing across all media and social media platforms, stories, compelling stories about what they do. We also recognise, and I realized this last week, I walked along the range.

[00:15:33] Guy Kinnings: We have a celebrity ProAm on the Wednesday, which is one of the best of the year, and we had wonderful stars of Formula One. We had, two film crews following the the McLaren team of Lando Norris and Zach Brown. you had drive to survive and full swing. We had, stars of tennis and rugby and cricket and all of these.

[00:15:52] Guy Kinnings: But we also had a huge number of influencers who find a way of engaging with the right audience across their different [00:16:00] platforms. and that's something we worked on closely for our own growth, but also working with partners like. Rolex who have wonderful ambassadors, BMW, have the same. So it's really using those players and others to help us tell a story in an even more compelling way than actually we are able to.

[00:16:17] Robin Swithinbank: I will confess, I've played in that event twice. I, and I can't wait for my next invitation. Goodness me, I, it's terrible to assume that I might even get another invitation. I'm extremely fortunate to have had two

[00:16:25] Guy Kinnings: Yeah. 

[00:16:26] Robin Swithinbank: I played with Matt Fitzpatrick when he was only 21, and it was a very special day because actually that was the day that he formally became a Rolex testimony as well, and he and his family were presented with watches.

[00:16:37] Guy Kinnings: And.

[00:16:37] Robin Swithinbank: I was welcomed into the room when, when that happened. And it was, it was a remarkable moment of, uh, well, he's turned out to be a remarkable golfer, but he was already a remarkable young man at that point. So, special memories. Anyway, what,what next? let's think about the future a little bit. Um, I mean, golf and sport by extension are like almost any other consumption category in that they face really stiff competition for eyeballs, for time with their audience, for the audience's [00:17:00] love and attention. do you see as the biggest threats and challenges that could hold back tournament golf development as a spectator experience?

[00:17:07] Guy Kinnings: I think. We've always recognized that there is a strong and compelling and loyal golf audience who love golf for the spectacle that itself, that there is inside the ropes and the players. You build a stage, you get on the right, great golf course, you build a great set up. The players always perform.

[00:17:27] Guy Kinnings: But for us, we need to do more than that. we need to be finding a way of attracting. Different audience. you look at the demographics of players. I think 60% of the audience in Rome were under 45, which is really good 

[00:17:44] Guy Kinnings: for a sport that in the past has been seen as being a little bit middle aged and bad jumpers and little male dominated.

[00:17:51] Guy Kinnings: We're trying to break down all of those barriers. and therefore one, we do that by making sure the experience for the. people coming to the [00:18:00] tournaments is exceptional. we've been doing it for years. It is not a new thing bringing food and music to tournaments, we have concerts after play,two nights here at the B-M-W-P-G-A championship.

[00:18:10] Guy Kinnings: We have 'em at other events. people are drawn, come food experience. We also wanna make sure that the experience is very tech. Focused, so people arriving, being able to engage through the app to know where their favorite players are, to know where the queues are shortest, to go and get the food breaks, and also improve the coverage.

[00:18:28] Guy Kinnings: we've gotta understand, we want to make it great for those that are coming to the tournament, but to make it truly compelling, to make it grow, to find new audiences. We also need to make sure the coverage itself continually improves and providing tech advance. Providing the,the tracking of the ball, providing more data.

[00:18:46] Guy Kinnings: Golf has always been very data rich, and we've realised that people wanna see that. They wanna understand more about the players, their heroes, and there is an amazing churn in the sport. So each year you have your heroes. You talk about being there for [00:19:00] what Matt did and other players, but each year, amazing young talent emerge and we have to tell that story.

[00:19:05] Guy Kinnings: So building that storytelling around and focusing it on the tournaments, hopefully we'll make sure that the game that has some real momentum right now will continue to grow as we see it both geographically and demographically.

[00:19:19] Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, and the feeling, and gosh, shall I call it the vibe to try and make it sound like I'm not a middle aged white bloke, but,the vibe is good in golf at the moment. I agree with you. I think the Ryder Cup will continue to increase the momentum that there is in the game.

[00:19:30] Robin Swithinbank: And, I'm optimistic for its future as a fan and as a golfer myself. let's think about branding and about luxury specifically. Ryder Cup viewers, tournament golf viewers. We are very familiar with the partner branding at the Ryder Cup in particular. also at Golf four majors. And, as, as indeed at every event, beyond, they'll see the Rolex clocks, for example, and the branding that,peppers our screens When we're watching golf on television.

[00:19:51] Robin Swithinbank: Give us an overview of what the Rolex partnership is worth to brand golf.

[00:19:56] Guy Kinnings: as you said, and I'm slightly biased because I'm sufficiently [00:20:00] old to have worked very closely with Mark McCormack and I know there were certain relationships that meant a huge amount to him. The relationship with england Club, Wimbledon, the,the RNA, but also Rolex.

[00:20:11] Guy Kinnings: and having had the privilege of working with Arnold and Jack and Gary and knowing how important that relationship was, Rolex it's where it started. It's ubiquitous in golf and tennis, and I know more broadly than that. And therefore they have a history and a heritage like no other brand and.

[00:20:28] Guy Kinnings: We love to work with them on all of those tournaments, as you say, whether it's the clocks at our tournaments and around the Ryder Cup, wherever it may be. but they've also created with us. the Rolex series, which allows us to say, we have a wonderful tour,year round, great strength, wonderful stories, but to have the best of the best at the Rolex series.

[00:20:48] Guy Kinnings: And we all know what high standards Rolex set, they want it to be the optimal experience for players, for fans, on site and for those watching. and that's been. Has reaped [00:21:00] its rewards. the investment in the events TV audience from when the inception when we started grown 50% for those events from 2018 through to 2024.

[00:21:10] Guy Kinnings: And they're also creative, and this is where Rolex tend to bring their own style to these things. They recognize how much the real fans want to enjoy ad free golf, and they create the Rolex hour, on Sky Sports. And it's a very clever way of doing it. But they, as a brand. Because they've invested for so long, and as you say, in so many parts of the game, Ryder Cup, president's, cup Majors, men's game, women's game, that through the RNA down to amateurs and juniors, I think they find themselves in a unique position, the exact high standards, and that is, makes it a pleasure to work with them so that we are lucky.

[00:21:47] Guy Kinnings: We have many luxury brands who are drawn to the. The sport of golf anyway and brought to our tour and our other assets, but Rolex in many ways have led the way in that.

[00:21:57] Robin Swithinbank: yeah. You mentioned, other brands and Rolex isn't the [00:22:00] only luxury brand in golf, we see Porsche, we see O de Marge, we see Polo, we see b, bmw, omega Tag, Hoya, Dunhill. there are lot of luxury brands these days in golf. What is it specifically about the sport, about golf itself that becomes so attractive to these brands?

[00:22:16] Guy Kinnings: golf has always been. It's been the sport of business. It's been recognized as that, if you are successful, you tend to be a member of a golf club and drive a nice car and do these things. But we are seeing it changing and golf is evolving and it's going through much as we were talking about the sort of, the influences suddenly.

[00:22:35] Guy Kinnings: Every superstar tennis player when he finishes, takes up golf and plays it really well. But if you look at the sort of the big three, four of those players, they all play golf. Alcaraz has a swing as he finishes every tournament. and I think that brands like that are being drawn to golf because golf has always had a huge asset in the sense that the handicap system means you can play with 

[00:22:56] Guy Kinnings: your heroes. Pro-Am allows you to play with them for [00:23:00] four or five hours as you experienced. But now these daysthere's a big focus on fashion. You know, Arne was cool in his day. Others bring cool to golf. You see what Laura piano do for us at the Ryder Cup. And we as a global tour, travel to stunning locations, beautiful golf courses, beautiful resorts and cities.

[00:23:20] Guy Kinnings: the players are ever more focused on their fitness, health, and all of those things. And as I said, the interest and involvement in tech. and the players themselves taking this responsibility to tell the story through media and social media, has been very strong and it's allowed for sort of collaborations and, brands like Lindbergh create specific collections of fashion wear.

[00:23:47] Guy Kinnings: and we talked about it at the start. It's not just. Matt Fitzpatrick and the other testimonies of Rolex, they bring their own involvement, which I think allows for the brands [00:24:00] to extract the value that they're looking for from the sport.

[00:24:02] David Sadigh: You know, when we look at the statistic, we can see that the average age of a golf fan is significantly higher than for like, let's say, football, NFL, basketball and so on. I remember that long time ago. I think it's 94 already. The writer's cup had a video game on the AMI computer and one of the first to already take advantage of like video games, computers, and so on.

[00:24:26] David Sadigh: I'm just wondering at the light of this like, generation challenge. What are, let's say, the techniques and the tools that you has put in place when it comes to conveying the dream about the Rider's Cup towards next generations?

[00:24:42] Guy Kinnings: Yeah,it's telling, it's selling the Rider Cup, but also the whole game of golf to the next generation. And it's funny, you talk about the video game, that was built around a man who transformed the sport and that was Tiger Woods. If the generation of the big three or who all work with Rolex were important, [00:25:00] tiger changed the game forever, and I always say to everyone, everyone should involved in golf should shake his hand every day because the game is that much more valuable because of that.

[00:25:08] Guy Kinnings: And in a sense we've always known. That golf has a great strength. I think it, I think the stat is 90% of Fortune 500 CEOs play golf. we know that senior businessmen and businesswomen are drawn to the sport, and that fans are more likely to be drawn to luxury goods and. And all of those things.

[00:25:30] Guy Kinnings: But what's been interesting to see is there is a shift in that approach, and I think for some of the reasons we've talked about, because we engage more through social media because we changed the experience to not simply be just a staple diet of golf, but that whole experience we've seen and people arrive and enjoy that it is attracting more Gen Z millennials.

[00:25:54] Guy Kinnings: And certainly we did some research on the tour. You know, over 30% of the DP [00:26:00] World tour of fans are now Gen Z, millennials and the Rider Cup even more So.I think, as I said before, we did the analysis and the number of, I think half of the fans in Rome were under 40, and that demonstrates a real shift because you are right.

[00:26:17] Guy Kinnings: In the past that would've been a very different figure, and for us, what we're having to do is just find ways of appealing. Doing things through heroes, doing things through both the golfers, but also the people who are drawn to, golf, whether that's other sports stars, whether that's celebrities, whether that's film stars, whatever it may be, brings in a new audience, using YouTube producing content you know,people love it.

[00:26:43] Guy Kinnings: And it's funny. I mean, I take no credit. , It's the team create great stuff. So if you get the experience right at tournaments, you tell this the story in a more interesting way and you embrace the tech opportunities, I think you'll attract that younger audience. And that's our [00:27:00] goal. we want the sport to appeal to all different, 

[00:27:03] Robin Swithinbank: We talk about demographics, I wanna talk about geography as well. we slightly touched on this already because as you said, you, go to 25 different countries around the world with the DP World Tour and you are the global tour. but I'm quite interested in what's happening in developing countries, and where the game of golf may not yet be that strong.

[00:27:18] Robin Swithinbank: And indeed where luxury brands may not yet have the same level of presence as they might do in America, in Western Europe, in Japan, in these more established territories. And for example, next month. you are gonna be taking the tour to, the inaugural DP World India Championship, which is a country that I happen to just have visited. is that one of the countries where the interest in the sport is growing fastest? and if so, how might golf and luxury brands collaborate to capitalize on this?

[00:27:43] Guy Kinnings: it's a very good question. We look around and, golf is almost. Truly global now, but there are clearly some markets that have been traditionally stronger, than others. And we know that there is a lot of interest in developing golf and golf tournaments. Not only 'cause [00:28:00] people like the sport, but because golf tourism is a good thing.

[00:28:02] Guy Kinnings: I think the stats are born out that golf tourists who come in and play golf stay longer. Spend more, all the good stuff. and therefore we work. and what brings a golf market on is often people show an interest. They observe you start to build courses, junior programs, build the local stars.

[00:28:21] Guy Kinnings: Big global stars visit, we talked about. Arnold Palmer, we talk about Tiger Woods. Other players go in and inspire that generation. and we wanna help with that. So whether it's on our main tour, the DP World Tour, or sometimes we use our other tours, the over fifties Legends tour, or the,the sort of, emerging tour, the Hotel Planet tour, which was the challenge tour, they go to some of the lesser known territories.

[00:28:44] Guy Kinnings: That inspires growth and they aspire to be on the DP World Tour, or even maybe one day in, certainly in Europe, host a ride a cup. But you talk about India, we acknowledge there are incredibly strong golfing markets. We know how strong the Japanese and Korean markets are. We know how [00:29:00] strong they are inAustralia, South Africa.

[00:29:02] Guy Kinnings: We have staged tournaments in India before. But if we could find a way of capturing the imagination taking just a percentage point or two out of the Cricket fans, which we know there are, in India, then we have a chance to really capture the imagination of that enormous economy. So the fact that we are going there with our partners DP world, we are going to the Dehi Country Club.

[00:29:24] Guy Kinnings: We are going with certain gentlemen who will be taking his green jacket, and Rory mcilroy will be heading the show there. We hope that will capture the imagination and DP World work with.

[00:29:35] David Sadigh: As we said, not only, the McLaren team, they also work with, the IPL. So we're hoping to make it a coming together of all of those and some of the cricket stars who will bring in huge crowds will come and watch the golf.

[00:29:48] Guy Kinnings: You've got the masters champion, the first ever. European Grand Slam winner is going there. First timer, a sort of sitting masters champion will have gone to India. We hope that we'll be able [00:30:00] to help galvanize the sport in the country, and build for the future. And that's, it's a good model if we can do that.

[00:30:06] Guy Kinnings: If we have heroes of the game who are ready to travel, and we are prepared to put on events around the world to capture the imagination, that's where I believe the growth opportunities are.

[00:30:15] Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, sport is so obviously global. there's clearly a huge amount of investment in it. The opportunity remains enormous. and indeed we've seen that. even the past five or 10 years, sport has grown. interest in sport has grown massively. We see sports teams and sports leagues with billions of dollars in investment flying through them, from owners, from broadcasters, and indeed from brands. in the eyes of some sports marketeers I've spoken to recently while researching how luxury brands and sport. can work together. you begin to ask the question of whether the net effect of all of this is that many sports, and I would put golf very much in this category, might just have become a luxury product, in themselves. Would you agree that begins to apply to, to, to golf Or maybe it already applies to golf.

[00:30:59] Guy Kinnings: I think [00:31:00] there's a sense in which it maybe does apply. In a sense, golf, as I say, has this extraordinary history and heritage. It has these core values of honesty and self-policing. As we know, the players and the sport are held to higher standards and most other sports, which is good and sometimes a little uncomfortable.

[00:31:20] Guy Kinnings: But overall. I think golf is seen that way. I think the key thing is to find the right balance. There are certain products as we know, which are seen as absolutely premium and luxury. You go to Wimbledon, you go to the Masters, and we have events that I believe can be mentioned in the same. You can say our part of that luxury product, and we want that to be the case.

[00:31:43] Guy Kinnings: People were, we like to think that the B-M-W-P-G-A championship brings down the curtain on the English summer of sport, which includes those iconic events, like the ones I've mentioned and the open and as it, and other things. but also, and we can provide, not only [00:32:00] can we provide those extraordinary premium experiences, we allow people to go inside the ropes.

[00:32:05] Guy Kinnings: All I can say is those that walk inside the ropes at a Ryder Cup are, it's like standing at the net at Wimbledon or standing at the halfway line in a, world Cup final. It's an amazing experience, but we also want to make the sport accessible. So it's great that it appeals in a luxury sense, but equally we want to attract.

[00:32:24] Guy Kinnings: Schoolchildren a very diverse audience. We have a little bit of a sort of correction of the view of what golf can be like as a sport, and we work very hard as a tour. When we go to tournaments. We involve school kids. We like to see involvement of male, female, young, old, more diverse audiences, making it clear that golf is actually a sport for all.

[00:32:44] Guy Kinnings: So whilst it's really important, there are elements of absolute luxury and we can appeal at that end. We also wanna make sure that it's affordable. If there are tickets that people can afford and when they go there, they not only enjoy the great show that the golfers put on, but [00:33:00] also can go into the village and enjoy the other things that make it an experience that the whole family can enjoy.

[00:33:06] Guy Kinnings: And that's what we saw at Wentworth. We see at a lot of our events. where people come along to that. We also try and reach out to schools to say, you know what, there are careers in golf. Golf is a sport that people can not only come and enjoy but work in. And I would say the sport's evolving and it needs to appeal to all aspects.

[00:33:23] Guy Kinnings: hopefully we'll get the balance right.

[00:33:24] Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, it sounds if it's more sort of a gateway perhaps to luxury rather than a luxury product, by that description

[00:33:30] Guy Kinnings: This, uh, this evolution is, fascinating and based on your long experience of a sport marketing and sponsorship, a guy, Where do you see, this relationship between brands and golf? heading to, will you be marketing golf to potential sponsor as a luxury product?

[00:33:48] Guy Kinnings: we as a sport. Lucky enough to work with 

[00:33:52] Guy Kinnings: a lot of partners. and a number of those are, as you say, the luxury [00:34:00] brands and we will know how to appeal to them and we'll be able to provide a product that appeals to them. Absolutely. We know that golf lent itself. You have that experience. We. It's not even four days at Ryder Cup.

[00:34:13] Guy Kinnings: It's three days, but it's a whole week as people build up with the ProAm. So you've got a whole week to be able to engage with fans on site as they view it. And we know that we can appeal to luxury brands and be able to provide that personal experience using the players, using events throughout the week, in these iconic cities we travel to, which can certainly appeal at a luxury level, but we also need to make sure.

[00:34:36] Guy Kinnings: We can find a way of appealing to other brands, and we are, we need to be able to involve brands at all levels, throughout tournaments. we, have partners who work with us on the tour specific tournaments, just the Rider Cup, which is almost a, sort of the pinnacle in the game alongside the majors.

[00:34:55] Guy Kinnings: and we need to make sure that what we do works for all of those partners and we have a very [00:35:00] strong team. Who are out there, not just making sure that we bring on board and retain these wonderful partners. Not all of them are as loyal as Rolex have been, who've been around for decades. And we hope we'll be around for many decades more.

[00:35:11] Guy Kinnings: But also, bringing in new brands that are looking for things that are slightly different. Certainly there's been a huge advance in tech business, and tech interests, tech partners in these events. and we know the traditional areas that have been appealing in golf. We need to explore other ones and we need to make sure that we constantly.

[00:35:30] Guy Kinnings: Process and work with them to ensure they're happy with the experience they get. And we do a lot of analysis throughout the year with, we work for our members. Most important thing is the players on our tour are happy, but after that, making sure our partners, the luxury ones and all others and the broadcasters are just as happy.

[00:35:47] Guy Kinnings: So we will certainly include and focus on what can be sold within luxury and how we can work with it. But equally we wanna try and be as appealing to all areas as we can be.

[00:35:56] Robin Swithinbank: guy, I can't let you go without seeing if I can squeeze a prediction out of you. [00:36:00] So come Sunday evening next week, or this week as we're going live on Tuesday before the cup, before the event starts. So who's holding the cup next Sunday evening?

[00:36:08] Guy Kinnings: the Ryder Cup has a wonderful way of making sure that the answer to that will be the team that is the most deserving, and it's probably those that hold c, hold clutch, putts along the way. I would say, going into it that everyone has been saying. It's nearly impossible these days to win away.

[00:36:24] Guy Kinnings: If you look over the last 20 years or so, even longer, maybe there have been few away winds. Europe are won away four times, and one of them, they had to call it the miracle. It was the miracle at Medina and it was a lightning strike of how it all came together. So it's hard and I think most people will look at it and go, you know what, it's an away match.

[00:36:44] Guy Kinnings: It's in New York. They'll be very passionate fans and the American team is very strong and they've got a strong captain. All I would say is I know how incredibly well prepared Europe are. I think it's gonna be extremely close. and it [00:37:00] could even be one of those Ryder cups where it comes down to the last put on the green.

[00:37:03] Guy Kinnings: And it'll be a head or heart answer clearly. I hope that Luke will have the rider cup in his hands in front of his team. but it'll be, I think it's probably too close to call.

[00:37:14] Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I have the luxury of allowing my heart to lead my head. And of course, as a European, a devoted European, I, will be hoping for a European victory in the first, as you say, since 2012, on foreign soil and the miracle of bedina. But obviously for the sake of balance, I'll say that I wish both teams very well.

[00:37:28] Robin Swithinbank: and to, to our American listeners in particular, good luck to everybody. it's gonna be, it's gonna be a very joyful occasion, regardless, even, even for the losing side. Tends to create moments of absolute magic and joy. So we can't wait. guy, absolute pleasure speaking to you. Thanks so much for joining us on The

[00:37:43] Robin Swithinbank: Luxury Society Podcast.

[00:37:44] Guy Kinnings: Thank you very much for having me. I enjoyed it. Thank you.

[00:37:47] David Sadigh: Thank you. 

[00:37:50] Robin Swithinbank: It might be a fair way from New York, Shanghai, but let's move on seamlessly from the Greens of Beth Page to the Chinese social networking and e-commerce platform.

[00:37:58] Robin Swithinbank: Red note, and in doing so, we welcome back [00:38:00] on to the Luxury Society podcast, Pablo Marron, DLG, board member and managing partner China. Pablo, good morning as it is here in Europe. Good evening as it is in Shanghai. How are you?

[00:38:10] Pablo Mauron: Good morning, Robin. I'm great. It's great to be back. Thank you.

[00:38:13] Robin Swithinbank: we heard from, Jack Roys in a couple of episodes back that Chinese luxury slump appears to be bottoming out in Q3. and I understand that you've observed some tangible changes in the way that luxury brands are marketing themselves as well. So give us an idea. What are you seeing?

[00:38:27] Pablo Mauron: Yes. I think that what we're talking about here is, is not so much related to the fact that we might finally see a rebound, more to how brands have evolved o over the past two years, given the context. And so what we've seen as a key result of that was at first driven by the consumers.

[00:38:46] Pablo Mauron: That's was, we all know, becoming more. Stress, less confident and more rational around that purchase, more critical around it, which naturally make them more skeptical towards brand content,and also as a result of them significantly [00:39:00] matching. We've talked about this on previous episodes about like the.

[00:39:03] Pablo Mauron: Matching their relationship to luxury confidence into their taste and preference and et cetera. looking for simply additional sources, of inspiration. the second thing is also how the social media landscape has evolved in China. as a result of a certain contraction and pressure on budgets and investments, brands, were not necessarily able to maintain the same level of investment in crafting content stories or different type of activations.

[00:39:30] Pablo Mauron: Traditional social media platforms also evolving, focusing more and more on their ability to generate advertising revenue and over saturating the social media landscape for brand content. And so as a result of that, they started to be a kind of fatigue among users that were not necessarily, connecting and engaging with brand content the same way it used to be.

[00:39:51] Pablo Mauron: the platform's evolving and the brands not being able to sustain necessarily investments,to delight and fulfill users' expectation on content. And so [00:40:00] that created a great opportunity for platforms like Red Note,that really appeared in the market as like being the social media app that is hosting the UGC or the user generated content.

[00:40:11] Pablo Mauron: and as a result, significantly reshifting how consumers are using social media. To both find inspiration, but also reassurance and confirming the act of purchase. but also the brand's investor around it.

[00:40:26] Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. that's interesting, to hear that Chinese consumers are looking for more reassurance that suggests, as you've suggested, a mature maturation in the Chinese consumer. you've mentioned Red note. what are consumers finding on Red Note,

[00:40:39] Robin Swithinbank: red note, you know, we always try to do the parallel between Chinese social media and Western social media to connect it to something we know. And if anything, red Note would be the Chinese platform that is the closest to Instagram in, in the way that a lot of people have a Red note account. A lot of people look like a million bucks on their Red Note account.

[00:40:58] Robin Swithinbank: this is where I share pictures [00:41:00] about my holidays. This is where I share pictures about my weekends. I don't do that on other platforms like Webo or WeChat, um,

[00:41:06] Robin Swithinbank: the the same fabulous, by the way, on your red note. Absolutely fabulous.

[00:41:09] Pablo Mauron: And so, Yes. this is what Red Note does. What at the same time, what it does is being powered by the same type of very strong algorithm that made the success of TikTok or doing in China. And that ability to just present you in the feed, the type of content you like. And so typically an illustration of that is that as a user on red, the brand you follow don't really matter because no matter if I follow Brand X, Y, Z.

[00:41:36] Pablo Mauron: Red will feed me the content that matches my taste and the type of thing I connect with. And so again, this is a very clear illustration of brand content losing its power over algorithm, recommended content generated by users. And RED is hosting that for different reasons. the mechanism on the app itself, it's history as well.

[00:41:58] Pablo Mauron: We've been talking about Red for the [00:42:00] past three years maybe, but the platform existed for more than 10. As a discussion forum where hundreds of thousands of users were going to exchange tips and advice on travel shopping. And so by the time it evolved into a social media, it already had a strong user base of active users that already were very Savvy on,on different luxury categories. It started with beauty, but it quickly expanded. we're gonna release very soon our red luxury index, which is gonna be a very comprehensive study of 150 luxury brands performance. When we analyze the world of mouth on red, right now, we can see that 50% is related to fashion.

[00:42:37] Pablo Mauron: 30% related to beauty, 15% related to jewelry, 8% related to watches. This is significantly different than three years ago where red was like 80% beauty related. And so you've got that platform where people can go look for inspiration, but just as importantly, as I said before, find reassurance. Like we know that for the luxury industry, the research [00:43:00] online purchase offline has been a very established trend for a long time.

[00:43:05] Pablo Mauron: That online research was mostly done through e-commerce platforms where I cannot get access to detect these things and so on. Now there is an extra step, which is once I've find a product I like, I've confirmed my interest, the price, and so on. I'm gonna go on Red Note to see what similar people as me I have to say about that product and their purchase.

[00:43:25] Robin Swithinbank: And is that shift happening because brands in the fashion, in the, watch and jewelry categories have been, using the platform better. and if so, how have that manifested itself?

[00:43:35] Pablo Mauron: yes, I think that. It's a kind of a virtual circle, because there is trustworthy content. I'm using Red as a search engine. red Note as a social media is experiencing crazy volumes of searches for luxury brands and products. So I'm researching red, I'm finding content, and because this is a platform where I'm already active, I'm already trying to be here and shine and look good.

[00:43:59] Pablo Mauron: [00:44:00] As an extent, I'm gonna research, I'm gonna confirm, and then I'm gonna go and showcase my own brand experience. and so it creates that virtual circle that, that feeds itself. and this is what really allowed them to establish that type of positioning on the UGC part.

[00:44:15] Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. and so that leads me to wonder how brands can effectively leverage UGC. How can brands insert themselves into the conversation without being quite as visible as they perhaps once were given this fatigue that you've described? I mean, obviously when it comes to top level celebrities and influencers, though I'm sure will be some sort of paid for relationship, but.

[00:44:35] Robin Swithinbank: What kind of transactions exist between brands, between micro influencers and perhaps even everyday consumers who are generating content?

[00:44:42] Pablo Mauron: So first off, we've established a very clear correlation between how your brand is being discussed in terms of word of mouth on a platform like red and search volumes or even conversions on tmall. so it clearly advocates for that idea that eventually, it's not just about how your brand channel performs, but [00:45:00] about how the total audience talks about you and when it comes to that.

[00:45:04] Pablo Mauron: There are different practice that have been quite industrialized. for example, the possibility of working with what we call KOC in China, key Opinion Consumers, which is just another label for what you could call a micro influencers in the West. But this has become very industrialized and significant part of brands budget shifting from working with big celebrities and top tier influencers to those micro and niche influencers.

[00:45:29] Pablo Mauron: To give you an idea, in our Red Luxury Index, Almost 80% of the posts made on red notes for the watch industry are done by users with less than 5,000 followers. and what's very interesting is to look at the efficiency of how much a top celebrity generates versus what you could achieve with 5,000 posts from 5,000 micro influencers as a result of that.

[00:45:52] Pablo Mauron: UGC is now a KPI in most of the strategic brief for brands when it comes to activation. They focus more on experience [00:46:00] that also allow them to both reconciliate the need to deliver an exclusive experience to your VIC, for example, and then expand it, later on. with the case of loewe, we had an amazing art exhibition in Shanghai, that was first and foremost designed to build a strong VIC core by inviting them to something very unique.

[00:46:21] Pablo Mauron: But then it lasted from for six more weeks where everybody could go, including my series six years old kid who went on a kindergarten trip to the LO museum. and so you, you can clearly see in the playbook of brands now they're doubling down on experiential marketing in China. And when it's well done, you always have those two chapter one ID exclusive design for the V-I-C-V-I-C.

[00:46:43] Pablo Mauron: One design for the crowd with the direct intent of generating that word of mouth. Because as luxury brands, it's not that you can rely on tactic like product sampling and so on to stimulate that. When you sell lipstick, you can quickly coordinate sending 2000 lipsticks to 2000 micro [00:47:00] influencers. When you are luxury watch brand, you're going rely more on typically those type of mechanism.

[00:47:05] Pablo Mauron: And so it created a big shift. And in my point of view, it's not always perceived as such, but I think it's one of the big reason. For brands investing so significantly on exponential marketing in China, despite pretty much all the other areas of their activities being reduced, given the current context

[00:47:23] Robin Swithinbank: Interesting. So it's about creating opportunities and experiences that your consumers can engage with. They then generate the content from those experiences, and that is feeding this virtuous circle as you describe it.

[00:47:34] 

[00:47:35] Robin Swithinbank: before you go, just one last thought. it occurs to me while we're speaking that,we should ask whether or not this is a sustainable strategy because I suppose the reactionary me wants to wonder whether or not putting your content in the hands of users, your customers means that you're also subject to the whims of their changing taste.

[00:47:50] Robin Swithinbank: They're changing ambitions. even their age. at some point everybody buys sensible underwear,in China, how many eggs should brands be putting in the UGC basket at this point?

[00:47:58] Pablo Mauron: I feel that the [00:48:00] similar concern was expressed, 10 to 15 years ago when brands had to open their first social media platform and whether they wanted to be approachable, whether they wanted to be exposed to what people would've to say publicly and so on. with UGC, it's a bit the same. First off, what we see is that if you want to be able to somehow influence and steer that user generated content in the right direction for your brand, strategically speaking, it's not an all enough thing. you're gonna have to be part of that conversation. And what it means by that is being able to.

[00:48:32] Pablo Mauron: Really do community management, not doing community management, that is just crisis management. When you got an angry or unsatisfied customer or a controversy, community management, that is solving that very difficult equation for a luxury brand on how do I maintain my luxury and exclusive positioning while being able to engage with my audience?

[00:48:53] Pablo Mauron: We've seen that in numerous ways. We're running, for example, the account or Red note account [00:49:00] of several luxury watch brands. and very often the idea is say we're gonna do a campaign this month to tell people to ask the question so our watchmakers can answer it. and you look at those brands activities and you're like, for six months they've been asking questions under your content and you didn't reply to it.

[00:49:18] Pablo Mauron: But now you want to do a UGC activation and you're gonna ask them to ask those questions. So it really comes down to being able to create, it's not a new practice because community management has always existed, but making community management evolve in truly figuring out how can I stimulate and be part of those conversations through my editorial content, through my hashtag strategy, through a certain degree of willingness to, to showcase my audience.

[00:49:43] Pablo Mauron: Encourage them to speak and as a result, have somehow an ability to influence a little bit toward this goes.

[00:49:49] Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, it sounds as though ultimately it's about connection, which is of course a very human quality, which ultimately is, uh, well, we're all humans and we're all looking for human connection. So, uh, brands to behave more like humans perhaps, who knows? Well, look, Pablo, we [00:50:00] must, call it a day there.

[00:50:00] Robin Swithinbank: Always interesting, always insightful, and, you are always welcome on the Luxury Society Podcast. Thanks for coming on. Good to

[00:50:05] Pablo Mauron: Thank you very much, Robin. See you next time. 

[00:50:10] Robin Swithinbank: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now.

[00:50:28] Robin Swithinbank: I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. 

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