An Indian luxury watch? C K Venkataraman on Titan’s giant ambitions

In this episode of The Luxury Society Podcast, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh speak with C K Venkataraman, Managing Director of Titan Company, part of the Tata Group, about the rise of India’s homegrown luxury and how Titan is redefining what it means to make fine watches outside Switzerland.

With over three decades at Titan, Venkataraman reflects on the company’s journey from mass-market success to its bold "bridge to luxury" ambitions – including the creation of the Nebula Jalsa, a multi thousand dollar made-in-India timepiece, that has caught the attention of the global watch community.

From Titan’s plans for international expansion to the reimagining of value in luxury, he shares how India’s leading lifestyle brand is building credibility through innovation, craftsmanship, and daring vision.

Tune in for:
– How Titan is shifting from mass to premium and bridging into luxury watchmaking
– The story behind the Nebula Jalsa and Titan’s entry into high-end mechanical watches
– Why India’s rising affluence is creating new opportunities for luxury growth
– What "made in India" could mean for the future of global watchmaking
– How Titan is using digital, design, and daring to challenge the Swiss establishment

Brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. 

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025  fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Robin Swithinbank: Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host, 

David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh.. 

Robin Swithinbank: We're back after Midseason break refreshed and ready for the run into Christmas. Yes, the most make or break time of the year for the luxury industry is upon us once more, and so to kick off the second half of the season.

In this episode, David and I are delighted to be welcoming onto the Luxury Society Podcast. Our first guest from India. CK Van Kaman heads up Titan Company, part of the Indian multinational Tatter group, which last year reported revenues of a cool $180 billion. Titan accounted for $6.5 billion of those with its jewellery watch and eyewear businesses, and its growing fast, capitalizing on domestic nostalgia and enthusiasm for a company founded in the 1980s that then blossomed when the Indian economy was liberalized in the early 1990s.

Now the company has set out internationalization and premiumization plans, and we'll [00:01:00] be talking to CK shortly about his ambitions to migrate his watch business into the luxury space using Indian design, engineering, and craft a strategy unleashed on an unsuspecting luxury community. Early this year with the release of the Nebula Jalsa, a high-end watch made in India that came with a price tag of $46,000.

Now, I visited Titan for the first time in September this year and wrote its story up for the Financial Times, which I note for context because CK refers back to it a number of times in our conversation. Then as now, I was very taken by its story in its bold blueprint, and I'm thrilled that David and I got the chance to explore it further here on the Luxury Society Podcast.

The big question we're beginning to entertain is can an Indian company become a luxury watchmaker and take on the luxury establishment? Our interview with CK starts a little slowly, but it quickly gets going. He's got plenty to say, and by the end of it, David and I wondered if this isn't a line in the sand moment as the Indian giant begins to wake up.

[00:02:00] So David. On with the show. 

David Sadigh: Let's do it.

C K Venkataraman: history has it that the Swiss make the world's finest watches. Now, geography defies history. We are choosing to operate in what we believe is a very sweet spot, which is 1000 up to 6,000 odd US dollars. in that deliver such exceptional. Innovation, design, material, quality performance, that it's a knockout

 the

opportunity for bridge to Luxury, which is 2,500 to 6,000 US dollars is exploding in India

When people and the most, discriminating people, people who buy luxury brands, when they actually pick up any one of these pieces that we are currently making and selling the perception dramatically orders.

 I just discovered this morning that an iconic Swiss brand wandering our, which looks like ours from a distance is 50,000 or 55,000 [00:03:00] US dollars. Ours is 2000 us.

C K Venkataraman: The most important thing in this is that dream and that daring, and then money is more easily gotten frankly. 

Robin Swithinbank: and so it is now David and my great pleasure to welcome onto the Luxury Society podcast, CK Van Kaman, managing director of the Titan Company. CK joined Titan in 1990 and rose through the ranks taking the helm in 2019. During his 35 years with the company, Titan has been transformed into one of the most recognized and cherished companies in India. In recent years, it's embarked on an international expansion program taking its jewellery brand. Tanish can watch brands such as Nebula and Edge overseas now exporting to more than 40 countries, bricks and mortar store openings in the us, the Middle East and Singapore followed.

Although these make up a tiny proportion of its total retail footprint. In India, Titan has more than 3,200 stores, and while this has given it high levels of awareness [00:04:00] domestically, it's still little known beyond the Indian diaspora. The current challenge is to change all of that. So from Titan's HQ in Bangalore, India's Silicon Valley, CK joins us now to explain how that might happen and to talk specifically about a high-end watchmaking project that could prove the catalyst. So ck a very, very warm welcome to you. Thank you so much for joining us on the Luxury Society Podcast. How are you?

C K Venkataraman: Very well. thank you very much, Robin. You

David. Nice to meet you as well. 

Robin Swithinbank: So Cke, let's, look at this and try and, paint the picture for us if you can. I know the bulk of your business is in jewellery, and you're also in eyewear, and a few other categories, but we wanna talk about Titan the watchmaker, given it's new and highly ambitious trajectory. Lots of questions.

What's your current position? What kind of watches do you make? What kind of volumes are you doing? Who are you selling these watches to? What price points are you operating to? I mean, in short, what do we need to know about the company as it is today?

C K Venkataraman: Yeah, so we were born as a watch company way back in 1987 when we launched. And, we [00:05:00] have, operated substantially in the Mass Teach, segment as we call, here and,we sell about, 17 million,pieces in a year. 7% of that in India. we have a portfolio of brands, Titan, fast Track, and Sonata.

And we also have a retail chain called, Helios, where we sell fashion watch brands, going up to maybe. six, 700, dollars, most of it, and an average price of about $200 in that chain. And the watch business itself, the average price we sell would be about, 60 to 70 US India is a,$2,500 per capita country with millions and millions of people. And Titan was,launched as an answer to international styling and quality, but made in India way back in 1987. So it's in a way grown up with India's explosive growth in the last, three and a half decades.

So all those silvers of [00:06:00] today have grown up, you know, wearing a titan at school graduation, their wedding first job, and so on. It's a very, very well loved brand as well as a much respected company.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, there's, there's a sort of comparison, that, has been made between say, Casio and Swatch that in India for a lot of people, the Titan name has the same sort of cache as Casio and Swatch does for millions and millions of people in the us, in Europe and, Japan and

so on. 

C K Venkataraman: Very much. Very much. Yeah. 

David Sadigh: ck we, we hear you began a, a premiumization, strategy, 18 months ago. what are the objective of this strategy and what milestones have you put in place?

C K Venkataraman: so if you look at,the per capita GDP in India, he's expected to almost double between 2020 and 2000. 30 to go all the way up to 5,000 US dollars and driving. This is the, exceptional growth in the top two income segments called the elites and the affluent [00:07:00] and the elites are the sitting right at the top and the affluent.

Just below them, out of five income categories, which, consulting companies typically use. So the households in these two income segments are expected to more than double in this decade, and driving that doubling of the per capita GDP  to a disproportionate extent.

So in a way, the opportunity for luxury as well as bridge to luxury and premium across categories, whether it is wine or watches, or bags or jewellery, is going to be driven. By these two income segments. And we realized this quite some time, back, and the whole premiumization journey of the analog watch business started in a way with that thinking in the late, 2000 tens, but substantially gathered momentum in the last, three years in particular.

So if you look at the growth rate itself of the watch categories, the more than, 1000 USD [00:08:00] plus, price band is growing at almost triple the rate of growth of the, affordable watch segment because of the same explosive growth happening in the elite and the affluent households.

Whereas the middle class is not growing at that, same rate. So therefore there is a huge. Income class opportunity. On the one hand, there are very strong pointers from the watch segments where we are not participating that much, and our share is very low. So if you look at, for example, between 1000 US and about 6,000 US dollars, retail price, the share of Titan in that market is a very small single digit, but the Titan brand is very strong that a Titan company is very strong.

And therefore, and we are very well known for innovation, for design, for engineering, for quality and reliability. So we just needed to, in a way, up our game in this particular segment. And we have really done that very well. And in the last three years, particularly the share [00:09:00] of this business, to start with more than $150, and then $125, which is 10,000 rupees, what we call.

All the way up to about 2,500 US is really galloped and actually is driven the growth of the Titan brand as well as the analog watch business of the company.

because the people are there and the brand is very, very strong. We have the network, the right kind of stores for it. So through a combination of innovation, branding and retail, you know, presentation, we've been able to.

Capitalize on this,

David Sadigh: Yeah, that's absolutely clear. one interesting question is we as part of this premiumization strategy, you mentioned the segment 1000 to 6,000, USD we're at the moment Titan as a small, I would say market share, but this segment being highly strategic in the future. What are the brands that you are going to compete again in this segment in.

C K Venkataraman: it would be. Most of them would be, the people who buy, who pay these kind of prices today would [00:10:00] typically end up buying, Swiss brands. So you would have, right at the top of that price band, you'll have long jeans, you'll have Rado,little below. You'll have maybe in the middle Vale Frederick Constant.

Mi Bell and Ross. So typically,storage with brands, So it's a very active, category. But, we believe, what I had also spoken to Robin about, which is finally what kind of an overall value that we able to provide at, let's say, $3,000 versus an entries Swiss brand.

And obviously. the Swiss brands are strong. all the names that I mentioned are very well known. but, there is a growing,sort of, Conviction about, also paying for real value. And brands finally also get built with intrinsic stuff in them in any case, it's just that Titan is not known in the bridge to luxury space, and therefore the immediate question to a prospect, to buyer, even in India, [00:11:00] would be title for, you know, $3,000 or $4,000.

 we just launched a,Wandering, I was watch just two days back. Okay. It's a 2000 US product and huge impact. I mean, the people are just really loving it. And a $2,000 of dollar titan, as opposed to an average price of 60 or $70 that I spoke about for the analog business many, many, many times.

But the minute you have an innovation. Engineering and a final product in terms of its fit and finish and its quality and its accuracy, reli, and all that comes at that price. Then I look at, okay, what are my other choices and how do they compare? And maybe this time I'll buy this. I mean, next time I'll buy that.

Because many people in this kind of category also buy a lot of watches, not just one watch.

Robin Swithinbank: Value is so interesting, and we've got right into the meat of this very quickly. perhaps that's because it's such a, a central tenet of, of your ambition and, and of your blueprint for success here. And there's no question, and we discussed this on this podcast a [00:12:00] number of times over the past, 20 or so episodes that, value is key.

the industry, the luxury industry needs some kind of value reset at some point. And may, maybe this is where the reset comes from. I mean, that's obviously a, a. Big thing to say, and I don't say it lightly, but it's very clear that Europe is losing ground here rapidly. It's quickly becoming clear that watchmakers, and particularly the Swiss watchmakers, can't really compete on price anymore.

It's just too expensive to produce watches at volume in the country, and so most makers have switched to this high value, low volume model. Half the exports by volume have disappeared over the past decade, and so. The question becomes outta this, could India, perhaps in competition with China, which we know is doing a lot of, work in this space as well, become the world's engine room for industrial mechanical watchmaking.

Is that your ambition?

C K Venkataraman: You asked me this,on the interview as well, and really, so I would take it away as a. Thank you very much for an interesting idea, Robin, kind of thing. it was not really at the moment sitting, on our plate. What is sitting on our plate is certainly to [00:13:00] create products, which can compete with the best in the world in terms of sheer standards.

So it's not that, we want to make something which is not that good, but much cheaper. That's not our intent. We are pushing all limits. Like some of the things that you've mentioned in the article also about, you know, what are the power reserve of the mechanical watches and therefore the three day, power reserve, thing is something very much we are thinking about.

So if we make a three day power reserve, if we really fight on the accuracy of the, you know, the mechanical movement itself, some of the questions that, the article raised about is Titan as good as the Swiss in terms of quality performance. Would be answered and with that spec. And that's just on the complication.

But we have a high-end, case and bracelet manufacturing plant, which is 

300 kilometers away from Bangalore and where we have made good, stripes, but we need to make more where the final fit and finish of the product is exceptional. [00:14:00] So if you finally put all that together and make a watch, which is.

As good as maybe not, like I just discovered this morning that an iconic Swiss brand wandering our, which looks like ours from a distance is 50,000 or 55,000 US dollars. Ours is 2000 us. Surely there would be a difference in quality, right? finished quality. So we are not saying that we would reach that the finished quality of that 55,000 watch.

'cause it'll take a lot of cost also to reach that quality. We are choosing to operate in what we believe is a very sweet spot, which is 1000 up to 6,000 odd US dollars. in that deliver such exceptional. Innovation, design, material, quality performance, that it's a knockout and then, then you start, finally brands are built like that.

You know, you need that foundation for people to start believing in that possibility. So when we have a store having all this in Dubai, like we already have shops in [00:15:00] shop in Dubai, where we have taken a lot of the premium stuff that we have done in India. There. Because of the visibility that we've been able to give it, we are attracting more and more expats.

non-Indians in Dubai and the best in the world is available in Dubai, so obviously we are not playing in the luxury market. We're still in the premium, but in the premium where we were not doing so well with this entire thrust in the last three years, suddenly in some parts of Dubai, 50%.

Of the customers are not Indian. they're Arabs, they're European. They're Russians and Chinese. And, paying two $50, $400, $500 for a Titan watch, which was not happening earlier. And Titan is not a well-known brand to them. So they're seeing the watch. It's an Indian brand, but they're seeing the watch and saying, my God, it looks exceptional.

Robin Swithinbank: And then you hold the watch, you'll feel its quality, it's fit, and finish everything. And then you. Believe in it, and then you buy. It's really interesting. These are the early phases of transformation. Perhaps one of the things that you've done, of course, in order to [00:16:00] try and raise the. The awareness raised the profile of Titan Watches was the Nebula jso, which you introduced earlier this year for the audience.

That's a high-end mechanical watch with a, a dial hand painted by an Indian artist, has a Tobe Beyond movement, which you guys have made yourselves and a and, and noticeably. well, notably a $46,000 price tag. Now you're only making 10 of those and it's catapulted you into this price segment that you've never touched before.

In fact, you've never been anywhere near it before. what value in that project for you, what has it done to perceptions of Titan as a watchmaker, and can we expect to see more of this kind of stuff from you guys?

C K Venkataraman: I think the first and most important thing is the breaking of the mental barrier in the organization. You know, some of us visited, Switzerland in sometime late 2022, and we came back saying that, look, we need a kind of an appellation for this entire journey.

Which is more evocative and, because the premiumization is a little bit of a clunky word, probably, there isn't even a word like that. But nevertheless, it,tells you what it means. But, so we came back [00:17:00] with, you know, through beyond as a actually, why can't our program be inspired by that? And when they under, when we also came to know about the meaning of the word tobe beyond the whirlwind, it really inspired us.

And then we decided to make our own tourbillion. And when we came back, we also said we need to take a big shot at the GPAG and we said, somehow 2024 itself we should apply. And then we did apply last year, but the more serious application happened with, jsa. So the stretching of, that target in terms of the engineering that designed the engineering and the manufacturing that we had to do with jsa.

The tourbillion movement, which kind of, which we had never done before. And even in the time finally, in which we've ended up doing it about 18 months or so, and then the combination of 18 karat gold, that red agate, then the, hand painted stuff from the marble. What inspiration. So in all aspects of that creation, we pushed all boundaries essentially.

Now, it may from a. Con's [00:18:00] point of view, the real serious expert view, you know, it may be the first step in the journey. Sure. And I did get some feedback at the launch of JSA as well. When, when that JSA has compared with, let's say the other top end tourbillion but E United for decades. Some of them may be more than, you know, a century, right?

So this is our first watch of that kind. we take all the feedback, you know, without any ego here and say, yeah, but the buzz here in India, because we are not that well known as a country, we are not that well known, even though Titan is right up in the front, but for world, best of world beating products.

So tourbillion be almost such a igniter of that national. Desire in a sense, and certainly organizationally. So it's more the impulse that, and the,it's like a north star, which will just pull us and accelerate our journey in lifting our standards dramatically in the space where we actually want to play.

David Sadigh: CK you, you are part of the Tata group, huge [00:19:00] conglomerate, a hundred,in billion of dollars of valuation, India's largest business conglomerate. what type of backing do you have from the group to pursue the strategy?

C K Venkataraman: Actually, each of us is an independent company. In any case, the Tata group founded Titan Company along with the government of, tab Nadu. We are a very, very large company. We are a $6 billion, company in total size with deep pockets, overall in any case. So it's a company funded initiative in a sense.

So there's nothing outside the company that we need to look for. For this, actually the most important thing in this is that dream and that daring, and then money is more easily gotten frankly. But the dream and the daring and of course the capability and the depth and the width of that capability of people that we need, we do need more and all that.

And we are working on that to make a damn good play there. but it's all company fund.

David Sadigh: So,what you're saying is that Tata is a co-founder and obviously like an important shareholder, but the [00:20:00] day-to-day business is being run 100% by

 The Titan management

team. 

Robin Swithinbank: One of the questions that arises from all this is about, perceptions of made in India. Now, you've, you've talked very passionately, to us about, your drive for quality and looking to compete with some of the top Swiss brands, as you've outlined. Perception is everything in luxury. desirability is everything in luxury. do you think that you can convince the world's luxury consumers to invest in, to spend their money on made in India luxury products?

C K Venkataraman: That perception is from a distance. It is very, very unlikely to be a result of a direct experience, frankly. That's what I would think. And I can totally understand the reasons behind that experience, which is gathered from a distance. But for example, I'm, I don't know whether it's a coincidence, but I just picked up, you know, this particular model from my assortment to where today, this was created in 1995.

Okay, it's called [00:21:00] Insignia. And, you know, we had a very,bold and provocative ad newspaper ad when we launched this. And, these watches in 1995 blew the mind of people here in India from a design finished quality, the way they sat on the wrist and the comfort and all that the headline said.

history has it that the Swiss make the world's finest watches. Now, geography defies history. Introducing insignia from title. This was the headline, 1995. Three decades back. Okay. Now when today. We launched what we called as the world's slimmest watch, 3.8 m. Then in 2003, and that is still a big bestseller for us Edge when people and the most, discriminating people, people who buy luxury brands, when they actually pick up any one of these pieces that we are currently making and selling the perception dramatically orders.

So that is the key thing. [00:22:00] For example, why are discriminating people in Dubai paying 600, $700 and buying a name that they have never heard of? A at $700 you won't get a Rolex. Sure,

Robin Swithinbank: That's true.

C K Venkataraman: yeah. but there are better known international fashion watches at $700 better than Titan. But that watch the Titan is selling at 700.

What does it contain? What materials, what multifunction or chronograph and the fit and finish and all that. So in that overall comparison, clearly that $700 Titan is my God, is damn good. Excellent value. So that will happen. That's why discriminating customers who own Rolexes, who own Omegas are also buying a Titan Stellar at $1,500, buying a wandering hours at $2,000. So the product, and of course the presentation, especially for outside India, the presentation, the store and all that, the storytelling that we do, it'll be through that only that connection will come. 

There is no other [00:23:00] way. 

Robin Swithinbank: that raises its own challenge, doesn't it? Is how do you get, in front of the, the consumer outside India? So yes, you've mentioned Dubai as being somewhere where you've obviously got a point of sale. but when it comes to getting into the states, which is the, the biggest, consumer of luxury watches, by, in terms of Swiss exports, certainly when it comes to getting into Europe, when it comes to getting into Japan, are you in conversations with retailers, with third party retailers, are you looking to establish your own direct consumer network of boutiques?

What's the plan?

C K Venkataraman: Not, really yet because, you know, Robin, the

opportunity for bridge to Luxury, which is 2,500 to 6,000 US dollars is exploding in India

David Sadigh: Yeah.

C K Venkataraman: and India being India in terms of number of people and all that. So it is exploding and We are on solid ground from a branding.

Customer base, know, we have sold more than 200 million out of that, maybe 10, 15 million would be to this kind of audience. So we have the database and all that. We have the network. So our first focus is going to be creating a huge play in the exploring bridge to luxury [00:24:00] market in India. That is the first step, of course, Dubai, Singapore, where we've been present for a long time as Titan, but in a more diaspora focused way.

In the last two years have moved out of that into the examples I gave you. We can certainly open many stores in Dubai over time and certainly succeed US or Europe is currently not in our, you know, thinking at all because the market opportunity here is, is actually pretty large.

So it is not our ambition to become a big bridge to luxury player in Europe or the us. Certainly we want to dominate over the next maybe five years, the bridge to luxury space in India. That will give us the platform from which we can, we start moving and then ultimately leap in markets where it makes sense.

The other thing, and you had mentioned about the,tariff related issues and all that in the US thing, but given so many things that are happened in the last two, three weeks, a lot of thaw between the countries, all that is also happening. And this is an unsustainable situation where get settled, which means that the overall [00:25:00] presence of Titan Company in the us like we are looking at maybe three, $400 million of jewellery sales in the US maybe five years from now.

So we'll be a very strong company in the US with deep pockets, presence, connections and stuff like that. Even though it is, in another category. But we'll have a strong on ground, presence and understanding. It gives us a sort of. Opportunity to open a beachhead in the us. But to answer your question in very simple terms, the ambition for outside India for bridge to luxury is not there.

We want to make it here and then go there.

David Sadigh: So it's very interesting that you mentioned that, ck because I remember some past discussion with,Chinese brand across different segment, telling us basically the same. Our market is so big. That at the moment, let's build some muscle, let's build some like revenue. Let's, further increase our margin. And then because of the size of our market, we are going to be able to dominate and conquer foreign markets. now let's just discuss a bit more about [00:26:00] India more specifically. we know that there are like major e-commerce platform in India, Tata, click being, obviously, one of them. what's your strategy as far as e-commerce is concerned?

C K Venkataraman: The watch business is, very highly e-commerce and more importantly, omnichannel driven. And, we have a very good,company website, brand websites, which, sell pure online, direct,conversations with the stores, fulfillment happen from the stores, and all that kind of thing.

We have big partnerships with all the big e-commerce platforms in the country. Flipkart, Amazon, Tara, click and all that. So the contribution of overall, online is very significant in the, analog as well as the smart ' cause. We are also in the smart watches, business, 

David Sadigh: Can you share the numbers as part of the total sales? What are we talking about? Is it 10, 20, 30%?

C K Venkataraman: It's about 20 ish percent and being steadily growing because more and more people are becoming,comfortable with,buying online, even expensive products, return policies, support [00:27:00] them. You know, there is no risk. If I don't like it, I can return it and exchange it and stuff like that.

So certainly a big part of it. In the bridge to luxury. because the price being high and the customer being maybe slightly older and the retail stores will start playing a bigger role in the bridge to luxury 

space, 

David Sadigh: And one quick question. You mentioned around 20 ish percent of the total sales,for the watch business, online. can you provide a bit just the direction? Is it like more direct e-commerce sales through your own platform, or is it more rather to the Amazon, and Tata click of this

C K Venkataraman: It's,it's more through the, because they are huge in terms of overall traffic as well as category sales. 

So it is rather more, but the. The brand websites create the branding. You know, they build the brand in a way. And also, people go to platforms, horizontals for deals as well, the big sale days happen and all that.

So in terms of actual sales, it is significantly from the, marketplace, e-commerce as we call them. 

[00:28:00] And 

the brand website plays the brand role. And of course a very good sale also, but not like that much.

David Sadigh: and ck I'm sorry to insist, but being partly owned by Tata Group doesn't give you a strategic advantage also to be sold to Tata. Click on those platform.

C K Venkataraman: No, it does. But, the, finally. How popular, let's say an Amazon or Flipkart or Mitra is for watches and watches of the kind that Titan makes. Visa via at click will determine the final success. If the customers are more 

Robin Swithinbank: going to one, we'll succeed more there than here. CK we, we must begin to think about bringing this conversation into a close. But before we do that, I want to highlight, one thing which, we haven't mentioned so far, which is that at the end of this year, I believe you will retire from Titan. After 35 years at the company, 

you have clearly overseen, an extraordinary season for Titan.

Just give us a few reflections on, on what it's like to look back over the 35 years and to contemplate coming to the end of your time with the company.

C K Venkataraman: So I spent roughly 15 years in the watch [00:29:00] division, 1990 to 2004 and 15 years in the jewellery division as CEO, 2005 to 2019. And then MD of the company in the last,six years, it's been a, unbelievable,three and a half decades. And, what is so beautiful is, uh, at one level.

Titan is an iconic company from a lifestyle product portfolio. The focus on design, innovation, quality value, shopping experience, after sales service and all that. And dramatically redefined many things in the lifestyle categories across India over the 300 decades. So from a, let's say, a strategic.

Point of view, it's been an exceptional, company to work for and be part of. That's one part of it. Equally, Titan is one of India's leading stakeholder focused company where Titan believes that if you actually take care of the stakeholders will take care of the shareholders. that belief, which is central also to the [00:30:00] Tata.

Philosophy has played out exceedingly well. What do I mean by that? There are employees, there are off roll people who work for Titan Company in some form or the other. You may have, you know, seen the security guards and the housekeeping staff and people like that, Robin, when you came. The partners who make our products, the partners or retailer products.

All the people who work for those partners and so many other people who work in the, what we call the Titan ecosystem. Now, those 70,000 odd people are what we call the stakeholders. So if we take care of stakeholders, the shareholders will be automatically taken care of by the stakeholders is the other belief, which means it is a conscious capitalism.

If you will,as a term that you know, you may more easily understand, as an exemplar of conscious capitalism, where the prosperity is more equitably shared across the stakeholders, where you create a more beautiful world of dignity, equity, justice, and returning unbelievable returns, to the shareholder.

[00:31:00] Because we are a stock market darling, of India, for a while now, for two and a half decades. 

David Sadigh: ske. I think you should have a discussion with Fran because because he was talking quite a lot in one of our previous episode about the stakeholder, the importance of the stakeholder,

management part,

C K Venkataraman: 

Robin Swithinbank: Well look CK congratulations on, on 35 remarkable years. extraordinary. I'm sure to have seen a company born out of the economic liberalization of India, and, and it seems to me that, that the company is at another turning point now, and that well, maybe not 35 years from now. I suspect it'll be sooner, we will be increasingly conscious of Titan.

Of Titan watches of it. Products and of the quality that you've described, I'm extremely interested to see how the story unfolds over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. but, even as you retire in the next couple of months, I'm sure you still have an awful lot of work to do. So we must leave you to your endeavors and wish you well in them and indeed in your retirement later this year.

And thank you so much today for your time sharing, your insights with us and the story of Titan Watches on the Luxury Society Podcast.

C K Venkataraman: Thank you. Thank you, Robin. Thank you, David for.

Those, very probing questions. 

yes, it's a wonderful [00:32:00] time for the company and I think this whole internationalization that has happened in the last three, four years combined with the premium journey, so that combination, the internationalization, give us confidence in overall outside stepping outside in the unknown parts of the world, right?

And the premiumization gives us confidence about the foundations, which we are carrying forward. So yeah, great time to be in the company.

Robin Swithinbank: Wonderful. Thanks.

C K Venkataraman: Thank you. Thank you.

David Sadigh: Thank you, CK. 

Robin Swithinbank: so David, a fascinating conversation with ck. Got going a little slowly and I wasn't quite sure where it was gonna head, and then suddenly it sort of exploded into life and he became massively enthused.

Uh, and then after we finished recording, you kept peppering in with questions and I goodness, I wish I'd left the tape running because he said some more really interesting things. I think in our interview he said 97% of Titan's business was currently. Inside India, and then after we'd stopped the recording, he said his forecast was that in 10 years time, 25% of it would be outside India, which is a big shift.

 what did you make of all of that?[00:33:00] 

David Sadigh: No, I was impressed by the current size of the business. But also as you exactly pointed out about the potential that they have overseas. across, see a lot of different market and starting with the US and the fact that they started opening Orlando as well. I think that was kind of, interesting.

But thank you for bringing such an interesting speaker. You know, we are like used to lots of the CEOs of many of the, you know, typical watch brand and so on. And here we are talking about someone that, I think CK deserve to be most known by the Swiss watch industry and is going to become probably one of the fierce competitor of some of the entry level, Swiss.

Robin Swithinbank: Watch,brands. you're.

David Sadigh: yeah. But as you spent, some time there, in India a couple of,weeks ago, what did you think about this like bridge to luxury strategy and what's your perception, Robin?

Robin Swithinbank: It was genuinely interesting, genuinely fascinating, and, and that's why I wanted to get him on the podcast so that we could explore this story a little bit more and, and bring it to our audience. Yeah, so, and I went in mid-September, so, what are we recording in middle of October at the moment? So four weeks, from, four weeks ago now, six weeks ago from when this episode lands.

And I, I [00:34:00] suspect, honestly, in the course of my career, this visit will stand out from, the many trips that I've done to many watch factories in the past. And there's one really simple reason behind that, and that is that it's really genuinely different to the rest. And that's a really obvious thing to say.

I know you know, it's in India, not in Switzerland or Germany or Japan, you know, a traditional luxury market. but that to one side, I think the deeper perspective is about. Scale or industrial mite, let's put it that way. So while the setup lacked the sophistication, I don't wanna be sort of patronizing about it, but honestly, you know, lacks the sophistication and they know it.

Of a Swiss watch manufacturer, you know, in many ways it was like being transported back 40 odd years, but. there was a real sense of momentum and, possibility, let's say, about it in the way that, you know, in those same Swiss watch factories. I haven't felt that same sense for, well, at least five years, maybe even 10.

I mean, just to throw some numbers at it. they told me while I was there that in April they assembled 3000 [00:35:00] mechanical watch movements. Now I went in September, so six months later, not even six months later, and they had already increased volumes to 500 a day, which would mean a monthly output of 11,000.

So in that short window, they'd increased their output almost full times. extraordinary industrial capacity. 

David Sadigh: And it seems it's just the beginning, right?

Robin Swithinbank: Well, that, that's exactly, that's what it felt like. And we do need to contextualize this though, because it, it's the beginning of something. It's, it's definitely not yet competing at a level and CK didn't try to pretend that it was, and I think we have to admire his honesty and his transparency there.

You know, we're not making direct comparisons yet. These mechanical watches are not yet at the level of the Swiss made mechanical movements. you know, long Gene tso, there's brands he wants to compete with in the future. They're, they're quite a long way, in fact, from, from the quality, and we, we didn't talk about this in detail during the interview, but Titan's mechanical movements are accurate to minus 10 plus 30 seconds a day.

and they offer 36 hour power reserves. Now, if you know your watches, and many of our audience will, you'll know that a Swiss chronometer is accurate [00:36:00] to minus four plus six seconds a day. Rolex is the standard bearer here at minus two plus two seconds a day. most Swiss watch companies now produce watches with power reserves of at least 50 hours and, and up from there.

Now they told me they're working on improvements and CK mentioned that in our conversation as well. And, and, and the thing is, I honestly wouldn't bet against them getting there. They have got some way to go in what we might consider to be real terms, but they've already demonstrated they're moving at such an extraordinary pace that they could get there.

Next year, they've said they're developing movements with three day power reserves with better accuracy. They've said they're putting the finishing touches to finishing workshops and given their jewellery expertise, again, I think only a fool would bet against them rapidly increasing their quality there too.

So, you know, they could be producing high quality movements in high volumes. I dunno how long, I mean, within a couple of years or something like that. I mean, who's to say? And, and equally they could become the engine room of mechanical watchmaking. we'll, we'll see. It's really interesting.

David Sadigh: You know, at the age of ai, I think that, anything that is linked to the ability to improve manufacturing processes. [00:37:00] And everything that is like related to, the ability to potentially leapfrog and overcome competition, is going to increase. So, a company doing, he mentioned like 6 billion or total revenue.

we estimate around 20% watches. So here we are talking about a watch brand that is doing around 1.2 billion USD in revenue. This makes this company bigger in revenue than tag herer or by. Right. So yes, of course they are like selling watches at the moment where the bulk of their sales is like, $80, watches.

But I think this premiumization strategy is kind of clever. if you look at what, CAIO did with the limited edition, working on material, working on design, and so on. There are clearly room for companies or brands that are like able to elevate their like brand strategies. The 20% of like e-commerce sales is also quite interesting.

And he mentioned very clearly the fact that he was like also selling across marketplaces, the Amazon tactical click and a couple of other platforms that he mentioned, in India. So I'm just [00:38:00] wondering, are we talking here about a company that potentially in the course of the next five to 10 years can potentially.

Get to a size of a business that is bigger than the Cartier Watch business, you know, and I think it's not so common to see things like that, but 1.2 billion USDA estimated sales with 20% e-commerce sales in India with the booming Indian market, with the Indian diaspora, with some footprint based in like the us.

And you also mentioned to us of the record, but not fully of the record, after the conversation that Southeast Asia was also on the radar. So I think if I was, you know, the launching, uh, Vale Fredrik of this world, indeed I would have a very close look at what this, company Titan is like,building.

And I will take very seriously the fact that they already have more than, was it 3000 doors in India

Robin Swithinbank: Uh,more than 3,200. yeah, a huge footprint. but so little, footprint outside, India. And it, this is, this for me is where the story will become really interesting because I think as we've established, [00:39:00] there's little doubt that they can evolve their business inside India. And so there are two strands.

The way this story unfolds first is how Titan evolves. In India. And the second is how it evolves outside India. And it might be that the second part of the story is as he intimated at least five to 10 years, further down the line. Now I think that, well, let put it this way.

I mean, in Bangalore when I was there, you see Titan advertising and Titan stores everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. It's completely ubiquitous from the moment you get off the plane, right into the city center, billboards, stores, the works, you know, it's hugely dominant, at its price point, I guess.

and to achieve that on a, or even in one other market, but, you know, globally, it would require huge investment and a lot of time really, because, the consumer and the traditional market is very well established in their tastes. And I think it will take some time, maybe a long time to convince the consumer to buy into Indian made luxury.

Now that's not just because of what [00:40:00] it has to compete with, and we've already mentioned some of the brands, but, you know, I'd say it's competing with Cartier, which actually at some price points it, it might be. but there are still, and these are things that I observed while I was there, there are still three vital issues.

at the moment. It's designs are not up to the standard that we would expect in, traditional established luxury markets. I've already outlined that its movements are some way short and the quality needs to be improved dramatically there. And then thirdly is, is the branding, and the lack of sophistication, there at, at this moment in time, would be a barrier to success in those established markets.

But, I think that, it'll require not just a ton of tatter cash to get to that point, but also levels of market sensitivity that it hasn't yet manifested.

David Sadigh: It's, this part about, like their challenges in terms of like design and so on are all valid, right? Brand positioning, marketing, and so on. But I think if you look at it from a, a purely,strategic standpoint, the, the reality is that the market is going so fast. Their positioning is so strong that they are just surfing the right [00:41:00] wave and they are going to get bigger and bigger.

And what's going to happen is that some of the brands which have the cachet that you mentioned, which have the design capabilities and so on, are going to be struggling in the years to come. who knows? Maybe you will see acquisition and take my bet. and of obviously we didn't discuss anything with, CK during the call, but, I think with Tata as investors behind them and, based on what we have been hearing, I wouldn't be surprised to see them making acquisition like, you know, cities indeed with.

Saying at some point, like maybe they are going to compensate for some of their weaknesses by acquiring a company, well established entry level, good branding and so on, and heading forward in this direction. So, interesting company that, has a lot of potential ahead. and, I would be quite interested in following them in the years to come.

Robin Swithinbank: Definitely that. That was one other thing that I think really stood out from the conversation for me, and that was this point around value. We got to that pretty early in the conversation and I was glad that we did. he's obviously recognized that the value barrier has risen so high now that [00:42:00] many consumers are priced out.

And we can debate the meaning and the role of true luxury another time. But his company, as he sees it, can slot into the space that this has created, and I think that's smart. but at the same time, he hadn't, he didn't, he hadn't really seemed to fully consider that there's a long term opportunity here for India and for Titan specifically to become this global engine room of mechanical watchmaking.

I mean, my gut is that. if there is an opportunity here, and I'm pretty convinced that there is, that it will still be dependent on those three issues that I outlined earlier, but India of course, has this precedent in China. China,has, has, has. Shown us that it can produce quality components.

It has shown us that it can produce quality products and we're now starting to see these quality brands coming through. you know, we've seen the rollout of these electric vehicle brands, which suddenly are starting to, to dominate the roads all over the world. But I mean, clearly China is a long way of ahead of India and it's acceleration is exponential.

 I guess I'm saying that I'm hedging it for now a little bit. I mean, I firmly believe, if I can put it this way, that that it could happen. [00:43:00] I mean, that camp rather than the, it'll never happen camp.

David Sadigh: Yeah, I think at some point the strategic potential is there. the question would be obviously like execution. And we didn't speak much about the brand licenses in watches, but I think the, harmony, Michael k and all those brands that represent huge. revenue streams. We are talking about a hundred of million of like watches being sold in this entry level segment, you know, from like a couple of hundred to maybe seven, 800,USD.

 and you can see that this segment, is going to face challenges sometimes linked to like tariffs, you know, like companies operating from the us, having also to deal with some tariff situation and so on. So if you add that to the mix. It make me think that, there might be some good potential for our new Indian friends.

Robin Swithinbank: Well, let's leave it on that note. I mean, it's interesting isn't it, that it feels like we've been talking about India as the next luxury powerhouse, for some time now. And, what's curious, I guess, is that maybe we've been asking the question the wrong way around all this time. So if India is to become the next big [00:44:00] thing in luxury, it could be because it's developing its own luxury brands, rather because it's selling more of existing luxury brands who we'll see, 

perhaps we find ourselves discussing this just ahead of the tipping point or even, even right in it.

David Sadigh: And who knows, maybe we're like the European car makers or the American car makers 15 years ago saying there is no way China will ever produce cars and so on. And I hope this podcast will still be live on Spotify and,apple, so that we can cross check whether we were right or

Robin Swithinbank: All right. We've put our flag in it. Good for us. Great. good talking to you as a David. Catch you next time.

David Sadigh: Speak soon. 

Robin Swithinbank: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now.

I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. 

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