The godfather speaks: Jean-Claude Biver on a life in luxury watchmaking

In this episode of The Luxury Society Podcast, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh speak with Jean-Claude Biver, Swiss watchmaking legend and founder of Biver Watches, who has over five decades at the forefront of the industry on why he believes true luxury lies in passion, art and eternity.

From reviving Blancpain and reinventing Hublot to launching a new family-run maison with his son Pierre, Biver reflects on a lifetime of transformation and leadership in watchmaking. With characteristic honesty and warmth, he shares what drives him today, and why love remains his greatest legacy.

Tune in for:
- How Jean-Claude Biver helped shape modern Swiss watchmaking through brands like Blancpain, Hublot and TAG Heuer
- Why he believes "being first, be different and be unique" is the timeless formula for success
- The importance of craftsmanship, emotion and art in an age of technology
- What he learned from selling to big luxury groups, and why his new brand will stay family-owned
- His reflections on love, legacy and finding eternity in watchmaking

Brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. 

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield, 2025  fallowfieldmason.com

Transcript

 [00:00:00] 

Robin Swithinbank: Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host Robins Swithinbank. 

David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh.. 

Robin Swithinbank: This week we are delighted to welcome onto the show, one of the Giants of Modern Luxury. In a moment, we'll bring you our conversation with Jean Claude Biver, the larger than life character who has ever was on Tub thumping form when we spoke to him, talking about his life in watches and his own fledgling fledgling watch company.

Be there, buckle up. This one's quite the ride. David on with the show. 

David Sadigh: Let's do it. 

Jean-Claude Biver: There, there is a certain fatigue in the marketing and there is also a certain fatigue in the numbers of players. But the correction will come

 Do all these people who buy startups do they know how to manage a startup? The management of a startup is quite different from the management of a brand that, is 150 years old

 I say it because I like [00:01:00] you, and when you like somebody in an interview, sometimes you say things that you shouldn't say. I say now. What I shouldn't say,

When I sold blancpain, I made a mistake

 We are totally contrarian in the numbers of watches we produce, in the quality we produce in the turnover we do. We are totally contrarian and that's our big chance.

I have zero problem to believe as long as we are in the segment of art. Exclusivity of extreme high quality. There is a market forever

 I never forgot my dream. I want to have my own brand,

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, here we go. Uh, before we started the Luxury Society Podcast, earlier this year, Dave and I came up with a list of people we'd love to spend some time with great minds who see the luxury business with the kind of clarity few others ever will. And [00:02:00] right up there as our guest today, Swiss watch, industry legend, Jean Claude Biver. Now Jean-Claude, as anyone with an interest in watches will know is part of the watch industry firmament. He got into the business in the 1970s working with EMR Pega at a time when Swiss watchmaking was being battered by outside influences. Chief among those were wild currency fluctuations, soaring gold prices, and most famously the birth of quartz. Now where some Swiss watch industry execs were ready to jumble ship. John Claude rode the waves. He would buy up the flagging historic watchmaker Blancpain before selling it to what would become the Swatch group where he would work on Omega's 1990s transformation. Spearheading the drive to lock the storied watchmaker into the heart of the cultural zeitgeist through front page partnerships with the likes of Cindy Crawford and James Bond. But his greatest mission came when he was asked to take on Hublot, which in the early two thousands was still an outlier and a far cry from the global luxury super brand it is today [00:03:00] in 2005, he masterminded the launch of the Big Bang A Sports LX watch that would help define the watchmaking decade and catapult Hublot into the big time. French luxury conglomerate. LVMH soon came knocking and a sale worth hundreds of millions of euros, followed as did litany, partnerships with superstars in the worlds of sport, art and music. Then in the 2010s, Jean Claude was invited to Helm Hugo's sister brand Tag Hoyer before a brief stint at Zenith and a role as head of L VM H's Watch division were curtailed by Ill health. But he bounced back and even into his seventies, retirement never seemed on the cards for one of the industry's most dynamic bulant figures. And indeed, in 2023, Jean Claude and his son Pierre, launched a watch company in their own image and in their own name, creating Bever, a rhe watch company making high-end low volume pieces that draw on John Claude's five decades as a top level executive and collector of the world's most spectacular watches. He joins us today from BS headquarters [00:04:00] in the Swiss town of Giran. So Jean-Claude, it's a joy to welcome you onto the Luxury Society Podcast, a very warm welcome to you. How's life?

Jean-Claude Biver: Thank you very much. Thank you for this introduction. Each time I hear such a, introduction, I'm asking myself, did I do all this? Do.

Robin Swithinbank: So the record books say, yeah, it's been an extraordinary career, an absolutely extraordinary career, and it's been, I mean, I've been following this industry for over 20 years now, and right from the word go, your name was one of the first that I heard. And, uh, it's so clear that you've, you've shaped the watch industry, uh, in a way that few others have.

And indeed, it's, it's really hard to know where to begin, what question to ask first. Uh, after five decades.

Jean-Claude Biver: I can, I can help you.

Robin Swithinbank: You've got a few questions line up yourself here. Well, I wanted to start in the present because that 2025 comes into land and as one of the godfathers of modern watchmaking, how do you view the health of this industry, the luxury watch industry that you know and love so well today? 

Jean-Claude Biver: You know, the on, the long [00:05:00] term, even on the medium term. I see the Swiss watch industry still strong and still doing very well. It's not because we have now a crisis that, uh, the whole industry will be forever in the crisis And by the way, it's not the first crisis and I have the experience and I lived it. After the crisis comes back some good time and we are able, the industry is very, very strong in the attitude when you believe, when I started in 1973 for $1. We had to give three Swiss Frank 50. Now for $1 we get zero 80 cents, and the Swiss industry is stronger than ever, even with the, the, the increase of the dollar.

So we have an industry that is quite strong. Now, this industry we have. [00:06:00] Different brands, different price segments, and there will be some price segments that might suffer that. I agree. And the, suffering will probably come from the low prices, the high prices, the, the people who are. Really doing the quality I believe they are staying. Why? Because from a certain price level on, we don't sell watches. We sell dream, we sell emotions, we sell desire, we sell exclusivity, we sell quality, we sell eternity. These are. Elements that we have in our products, and would we only sell a watch? I think then I would have many reasons to leave this industry and to be worried, but we are not selling watches and that is the re reason why we resist, [00:07:00] why we don't suffer so much from the actual today's crisis 

David Sadigh: Jean Claude when, uh, we met the first time, I think it was at Basel War 2005. Uh, at the time we were like, uh, starting or 2006, uh, he was starting with Ulo. We were at the radio Swiss in Basel, interviewed by the, uh, Swiss Radio. And, uh, I remember that Ulo at that time was less than 10 million Swiss Franc revenue.

And that you were like, uh, uh, building the business. Now the industry is like $30 billion a year. The Swiss Watch export. Uh, would you have believed that like 30, 40 years ago or even when you were running Blanc?

Jean-Claude Biver: No to, to that I, I was believing of course, that we, that we would expand, that we would be a successful, segment. But to that degree, I never thought, uh, we would do it. So I must admit, I am extremely, um, [00:08:00] uh, astonished even by myself for, from the success we had. but again, the success was built on many elements that, we can describe. Number one, we have quality. Number two, we have a certain eternity. Because a watch from a certain price level in 20 years, the watch will still be there. But a watch, an electronic watch how, however, how good it can be in 20, 30 years, it might not be there anymore. It might not function, the batteries might have, et cetera. So we have elements that where we can say. That's the reason why we will still exist. And today, I have no doubt and I just say to people, today might be a good moment to start to buy, to start to, to, to build, a brand. I have no problems to say that because I [00:09:00] really believe in it.

David Sadigh: Don't you think that, like with the car industry. Everyone was like, uh, quite convinced about the long lasting value of the car industry and so on. And now we are seeing that apart from a few collectors. Uh, basically, uh, lots of those like, uh, vintage cars and so on, they do not necessarily keep their value and so on.

Are we not like facing the same type of challenges at the age of artificial intelligence and technology innovation and so on? At the end of the day, wristwatch is only like, uh, 120, uh, uh, years old. Don't you see a risk of mechanical watches becoming obsolete?

Jean-Claude Biver: a mechanical watch in theory cannot become obsolete. You know, my father gave me before he died, a watch, and he said to me, my son, take good care of that. Watch. I got this watch from your mother. From my wife. Uh, when we got married, I said, wow. I took the watch and I said, Papa, well, since when [00:10:00] do you have that watch?

He said, since 1942. And I said, but I you, did you wear it? Did you wait? It? Yes. Yes, I did a few services and I, I wore it. That is eternity in a certain way, and he just had the watch. But if you have a car from 1942. You need a garage, you need to make changes of, of the tires. You need, uh, service. It's, it's not like a watch, a watch.

You can, after 20, 30, 50, a hundred years, the watch still works. I have watches in my own collection From the 19th century and they just work. I don't wear them every day, but they, they work and there is a kind of eternity in and in the watches. It is not just, uh, saying there is eternity in our watches.

Robin Swithinbank: I see that and I, and I feel it. And this is very much a sentiment that we're describing, isn't it? Yes. Okay. There's a, a practical implication here. It's a mechanical object [00:11:00] that you can service, you can maintain, and it will continue to work. But if we're trying to look back over the past 25 years or so, and, try and find moments or, or events or, or launches or decisions that were made by. Prominent brands and people in the industry, can you think of any really salient moments which have shaped the industry into what it has become today?

Jean-Claude Biver: Yes, one element that we hardly mention, it was the first in my, in my opinion, the first big strong disruption happened with a watch from audemars piguet called Royal Oak. The Royal Oak suddenly. Mr. Golay from AP from said, I want a watch that is automatic. I want a watch that is water resistant. I want a watch that is sporty watch.

I want a watch that is strong, heavy quality. People said, [00:12:00] but that's not luxury. In luxury. We don't use steel. We only make gold in luxury. We don't make thick movements. We only make ultra slim. And he said, no, no, no. Luxury is changing and I want the Royal Oak to be the future. God, that was the first strong disruption and the OG is still here today after it was launched in 1972 and the watch is there as it was in 1972.

Nothing has changed. The only people that have changed are the ones that bought it in 72. You can see today that they are more than 50 years old. but signed that from the watch. You cannot say when the watch was made because it's the same watch since 1972. And the same happens to the, the, the Rolex Daytona. The same happens to a Omega Speedster. There is eternity already in the [00:13:00] design of the watches.

Robin Swithinbank: was gonna ask you that. Is this about design or is it about mechanics, or is it about branding?

Jean-Claude Biver: It's the all three together. It's the brand, it's the quality is the design. It's.

Robin Swithinbank: Uh, one of the things that occurs to me with what has been described as consumer luxury fatigue is that. This issue of branding has, it's come become a bit over the top. I mean, we see so many, well, to stick with the watch industry, we see so many brands telling consumer stories about craft and heritage. We see so many glossy campaigns about new ambassadors, about sponsorships and collaborations. Uh, have we got to a point where we've run outta road on that front. Is it time to change the record or do you think, uh, the industry should continue with the same themes?

I agree with the fatigue. There is fatigue in the marketing there. There, there is a certain fatigue in the marketing and there is also a certain fatigue in the numbers of players. But the correction will come and by itself, we will have less, [00:14:00] uh, people, we'll have less fatigue. So the market will make the correction and that is for sure. But, the market will stay. It will remain a very strong market. And again, I believe in, uh, even the fatigue. Interesting to hear you say that. Let I, let's take the opportunity while we can, uh, just indulge ourselves a little bit, uh, because it would feel like a missed opportunity not to reminisce a little bit and look back at your time, particularly at Hublot and LVMH. How do you view those years now?

Jean-Claude Biver: I view the years I am born in nineteen forty nine. I only had the best time that the planet Earth has lived. I think people that are born after World War ii, That was the best years ever. We had only success. We had only, uh, money only [00:15:00] development, only positive. Nothing was negative. We were living in a dream we had wars in the world.

There were wars, but not in Europe. I mean, what we lived was so positive. And today, okay, we have to suffer a little bit, but we have to readapt. And if we cannot adapt, then we, we will have a problem. But the adaptation will come because we are flexible, because we, we want to adapt. we are not stubborn.

 we will not, uh, go to the future with the same tools than the ones we had in the fifties. That's for sure.

Robin Swithinbank: I'm just rebounding on, on Robin's, uh, comment about the Ulo Day and LVMH and I, I remember one discussion. We had a few, and I remember all of our discussion and I remember one discussion when you sold, uh, ULO to LVMH. I asked you the question, Jean Claude. I said, why did you sell the, the brand? And you told me David.

David Sadigh: China [00:16:00] is going to become one of the biggest market. It's going to be extremely complicated to get access to the retail. You know, those big groups have access to lots of doors. They can provide the support in term of growth that no other brands were benefiting from. And you also told me that you enjoyed a lot your time at SW Group.

And, uh, basically that your aim was not necessarily to go and work for another group. So when you look at all your story, because you have been working both with independent brand, you have been selling them, you have been working for two of the most important group. When you look at that in insights, uh, what are your learnings basically about this, between independent groups and so on, and who is going to eventually succeed?

Jean-Claude Biver: Yeah. Um, the groups are now buying independent brands. I, I don't want to mention them, but they are, uh, very successful. Independent brands as we name them, that where big groups or strong, uh, people have [00:17:00] bought shares. Some at 30%, some 50%. So why? Because they feel that there is a little market for that. There is some future for it because of the fatigue, number one. Uh, also because of the customer. The customer he knows he wants now. he wants more than just a watch. He wants a special service. He wants special attention, he wants special pieces. Even he, he wants individuality in, in the watches.

So, uh, we have a, development, and it was for me. A real surprise to see big brands or big names of the fashion industry starting to buy startups. But once you have bought a startup, the easiest thing is to buy the startup. But then you have

to manage it.

like a startup, not like a big brand there.

And, and that is [00:18:00] where the difficulty are coming because. Do all these people who buy startups do they know how to manage a startup? The management of a startup is totally, not totally, but is, is quite different from the management of a brand that, uh, is 150 years old that does, uh, the uh, one, two or 3 billion turnover. voila. I believe, uh, it's a good sign that big brands are, have started to buy, little startups or little independent watch brands.

David Sadigh: And do you believe that this is going to continue?

Jean-Claude Biver: It has not really started yet. Uh, the start was interrupted by the problems. We, we, we all know. So, I think it'll continue. 

 and just link on that, There are not so many brands, in fact that manage to grow very quickly from all to 100, 200, 300 million. Uh, you know, obviously like [00:19:00] Richard Mille and are probably like two of the most like important examples of the last, uh, uh, 20 years. How do you explain that?

Hublot or Richard Mille or others. Uh, had probably the best management, be because before having all the marketing, expenditures, before having the marketing budgets, they had management, and Isha Mill is a very good example. The management of Hamill is just brilliant. If it's the management. Of, uh, the pr if it's the management of his marketing, the management of the design of his watches, the quality of his watches, management is key. And they had really very, very good management. And that is why, for me, that's the one of the reason why they are so, so successful.

David Sadigh: But big groups have good management as well.

Jean-Claude Biver: Uh, not necessarily the same. Big, groups have a management, not for the [00:20:00] individuality. For a big group, if you have a turnover of, uh, 500 million that's not a big, investment for these groups To manage a, a brand that does a turnover of 300 or 500 million, which for a private person is extremely well, for a big brand that is used to billion, suddenly manage a little brand that does just hundred or 200 million is not the same job. It's not the same people and it's not the same mentality, and it's even notthe same love if you go and you see people that are managing Hamill, they wear Hamill and they wear Hamill, when the watch belongs to them. Not a watch that was lent to them. Uh, and when you leave the company, you give the watch back. That's typically the big groups. Uh, and, and, uh, a small independent, he [00:21:00] buys the watch because he loves watches. In big groups, You have managers that even don't love watches. They love money, they love success, but do they love their own? the watches they produce? I have sometimes some doubts.

Robin Swithinbank: Jean Claude, all this leads me to ask a question about the future of your latest venture. Uh, because twice in your career now you have run what essentially was an independent brand and then sold it to a large group. So Blancpan, Panther, swatch Group, Hublots, LVMH. Now you are running Biver with your son Pierre. And with James Marks in position as CEO is the, does the aspiration become to sell that to one of the larger groups?

Jean-Claude Biver: No, not at all because, uh, I have my family in fact, and I say it because I like you, and when you like somebody in an interview, sometimes you say things that you shouldn't say. Uh, and uh, I say now. What I shouldn't say, my brand Beaver, [00:22:00] which I run with my son, Pierre, is my best way to digest the fact that I sold blancpain.

Robin Swithinbank: Hmm.

Jean-Claude Biver: When I sold blancpain, I made a mistake and this mistake needed to be digested, and the full digestion came on the day I started my own brand. Then finally, in my heart, BLO was dead, so I succeeded to get rid of BLO thanks to the creation of my own brand.

Robin Swithinbank: That's, uh, that's 

 30, years, right? that's a long time to digest a, a

regret. 

Jean-Claude Biver: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah, you are right. I sold, Blanca in 1992, 

and I started my own brand in 2004. And in between was the digestion, but in between was also pleasure because I had the [00:23:00] opportunity to develop, uh, no. Uh, it was not just digestion, but somehow it was. A slow digestion and I never forgot my dream. I want to have my own brand, and I want a brand where I have a soul inside, where I have elements inside that normally I never could chase before. So. the fact will I one day sell my own brand? No, because I did already the experience and I have my family in it. I have two sons in the, in the company. I have my son-in-law, Nolan, et cetera. So it is really built, uh, from A to Z, like a family business.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, it, it is good to hear you talk about the company with such passion, goodness. You've talked about, you talk about all sorts of things with a great deal of passion, and it's, uh, it's, it's lovely to hear you, uh, reflect on, be very in, in that way. [00:24:00] Uh, one of the things that's of interest me with the company itself is, is the sort of watches that you make and the decision you've taken is.

To, to lionize the art and the craft of watchmaking. You often talk about what's unseen as well as what is seen. Why did you decide to focus there rather than to to create a brand which was more in the same mold as Omega Tag Hoa, hubler, these sort of big, slightly more mainstream brands. What, why go for something so very niche?

Jean-Claude Biver: I went to something very niche because that's my taste, that's my wish of today. I hate to repeat myself, and I didn't want a repetition of Omega or repetition of blanc. I want no repetition  and that is the most important. I wanted to master the invisibility. All the elements that you cannot see in the high quality watch are the elements that excites me, and that's [00:25:00] why I want to do it. I want to polish, uh, the back. Of my hands. The back of the hands, which you never see because you see the hands from the top. You cannot see what is under the hands of the watch and under the hands there is no polishing. The polishing of the of, of the hands are on the top. From where the eyes can see, but the back is not polished and my back is polished like the two sides. And this to master the invisibility to master what you cannot see, but what the soul. Can feel and the, and I want to come close to eternity. And the closer, the more you go to high quality, the closer you come to the doors and one day the doors of eternity will open, and that's the day you [00:26:00] die. And then you have reached the summit. And as long as you are alive, you are searching for, you are trying to find, you are going, going and suddenly the doors open. Wow. Here eternity. I am. But you are dead.

Oh goodness, Jean Claude. Uh, I wasn't expecting to get the pearl gates quite so early in this conversation, but my next question seems incredibly dull and prosaic by comparison. But, uh, if I can just to sort of draw us back down to earth and to, to the current reality. Um, you are running this new brand and evidently it's, it's position at the very high end.

Robin Swithinbank: You're selling watches for tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Swiss francs. Um, but you're doing so in, in a. Uh, against the backdrop, which as you've already alluded to, uh, some have described it as being in crisis. Some of our previous guests from the watch industry have described it as the perfect storm.

We're looking at some significant headwinds. US tariffs on Swiss exports are 39% the price of gold careering through $4,000 an [00:27:00] ounce. how are these challenges affecting your young business in, in the day-to-day of, of running a watch company?

Jean-Claude Biver: It is not affecting us because we are number one, too young and number two, too small. Uh, being young means. We are in the startup, uh, period of our, brand. And in that startup period, the world, crisis doesn't matter a lot because we have the customers for that type of watches.

The we are producing number two. We have produced a lot hundred watches last year, but a hundred watches for the world. Just if you think we sell in, let's say 10 countries. If you sell a hundred watches in 10 countries, that's 10 watches per country. That means 10 watches in China, 10 watches in America.

10 watches in Germany, but to sell 10 watches in America is a [00:28:00] joke. I mean, it's not so easy, but it's not difficult because it's only 10 pieces. And that's the beauty to be small. And that's the beauty to have started now in the middle of the crisis because the crisis is not hurting us. On the contrary, the Christ is helping me. To be different from the others, to seed by success and that to be contrarian. We are totally contrarian in the numbers of watches we produce, in the quality we produce in the turnover we do. We are totally contrarian and that's our big chance.

David Sadigh: Jean Claude, you say different. 

Be unique. unique. 

Be different,

Robin Swithinbank: We've been here before, surely 

Jean-Claude Biver: No, no, no. It's to

Be first

different, unique. When

you are first 

David Sadigh: I 

Jean-Claude Biver: unique, you cannot lose. 

How can You lose? 

David Sadigh: did it everywhere. I remember your EHL speech about it and so you know, one day people are going to write it [00:29:00] down, like be unique,

be first, be different. 

That's the chocolate. Be there, mark.

Jean-Claude Biver: That's it. And that's, and that is what you have to achieve. And when you try to achieve this, you will see it is not

David Sadigh: But you have to polish, but you have to polish both sides.

Jean-Claude Biver: Yes. The back of our dials are polish, are decorated. The back nobody will see except the watchmaker. So what do you do it, Mr. Biver, where nobody can see? People must feel people. It's the unconscious of the people we are working

on. 

David Sadigh: the quest. Yeah.

Jean-Claude Biver: That is important.

Robin Swithinbank: I, I find it is such an interesting approach to watchmaking because we've seen this significant shift over the past decade in the way that watch brands behave. And, and as you all know, exports of Swiss watches have halved over the past 10 years as brands have reduced the number of, uh, references, reduced their inventories, and have started focusing on the sort of the higher. [00:30:00] Aspects of watchmaking, which you are describing at the very highest point of course. do you think that this is the future of Swiss watchmaking? That it is about the high end and the low volume? Or do you think that at some point the Swiss watch industry will return to the point that it was at in terms of volumes 10 years ago, 20 years ago?

Jean-Claude Biver: Honestly, I think a lot of it, and I have not the answer. I have, I have attendance to not believe because I don't think the past will come back. The past might come back in a certain way, but in another way from from where the past is now. So I have problems to think that it'll go on. I have zero problem to believe as long as we are in the segment of art. Exclusivity of extreme high quality. There is a market forever for sure. I, I, I could bet all my [00:31:00] fortune for that, but is there a probability that the industry will come back? To numbers that we have known now selling so many watches at, uh, eight, uh, 80 or 120 Swiss Franc. Is, is there a future for this? PI have doubts because at that price level, I believe the electronic watch is one of the solution. The electronic watch, which is in fact a computer. The computer which you can put on your wrist. That is what I call they, they have future, but that, is that a watch? No, it, people say it's a watch because it tells you what time it is, but how much, how often do you look at your court watch for knowing what time it is or for doing phones or, or, or emails you don't use?

You use it mainly [00:32:00] as a computer. And the computer Watch they have future, but a simple watch that tells you what time it is. I see no interest to buy a cheap watch to tell you what time it is.

That's really interesting. I mean, it's almost 10 years to the day and I was there, uh, in New York when you launched a Tag Away Connected and there's this and sort of birthed this category of the luxury smartwatch. Um, tag Away was very much during that game, but it's had very few imitators creating this computer watch as you just described it. has the luxury smartwatch story played out as you expectedNo, the problem of the computer watch is the people that are building the elements of the computer, and this is Silicon Valley. And when you, we had this problem with tag. We don't have the technology in Switzerland to make, uh, the same watches than the Apple Watch. So we are always [00:33:00] behind or we can never get to the same level, and therefore the Swiss slowly, slowly have realized that it's not our market and we even don't have the, the technology inside Switzerland. And as we want to produce Swiss made, we cannot use products that are coming from other regions. And that is a barrier, and that has probably been one of the reason why the Swiss made connected watch was never a big, big success.

David Sadigh: Jean Claude, you have always been quite ahead in trying things and taking risks and so on. I remember you buying for. $1 million I think, of advertising on the ft.com like even before any other brands started doing that. I remember you going on forum time zone, answering everyone very quickly, answers about Big Bang and so on.

How do you look at the revolution that is actually occurring and the beginning of this [00:34:00] artificial intelligence race?

Jean-Claude Biver: that's again, we are talking from artificial, uh, intelligence. I know what it means. I know how to use 1% of, uh, artificial intelligence, and I must say I don't have the answers, is because it's, not in me. It's something that the new generation understands immediately, but for me, it's difficult, uh, to say, wow, this will be the future. the only thing I know for sure. Art will be successful in the future and the watch belongs also to art when the quality is at a certain level. A watch is a piece of art, and art is made to become eternal and therefore, the mechanical watch. Has this eternity in it and [00:35:00] will be eternal, will the artificial intelligent watch be the future? I, I don't want to say anything because I know I will say stupid things that will not be true, so I prefer not to answer.

Robin Swithinbank: I think that's very healthy. Thank goodness. I think that the three words, I don't know, are probably the three, least used words in the English language, and it would be welcome if people were to use them far more often than they do. Um, look, before we, before we let you go, Jean-Claude, we must talk about legacy, uh, five decades, 50 odd years in the watch business. How would you describe your legacy and how would you like to, how would you like people to consider your legacy?

Jean-Claude Biver: Number one, I am a passionate person. Number two, I have a passion that is so strong that it has guided my life now for 52 years. Number three, I am a person who needs love and I'm born in the hippie trend and when The Beatles were singing, all You [00:36:00] Need is Love in 1967. When this song came out, I am born with this song. I have learned what love means. Not love just between two people, but to share. That's love, to respect, that's love, uh, to forgive. That's love. Love as a religion and my generation. I was born with that religion love, and I am passionate about love. I'm passionate about my watches also. Yes, but my biggest passion. Is love to try to give back, to try to share, to try to understand, to try to forgive. These are elements that are so solid and they only make us happy, and that's the way [00:37:00] to become happy to develop these elements. And if you can do it. Please do it. And this is what makes me happy, what makes me alive. And since I have discovered the love, and I discovered it when I was quite young in 1966, uh, I, my life has been structured and I try to follow these rules, the rules of love, the rules of life.

I.

Robin Swithinbank: Well, I think that's a, a splendid place to end, uh, with those wonderful sentiments and, uh, a lovely reflection on your life and on your career in watches. As Jean Claude, it's been an absolute delight as anticipated speaking with you and, uh, listening to your words of wisdom, not just about watchmaking,

but about life as well. Thank you so much for joining

us 

Thank you. gentlemen. Thank you for interviewing me. 

Jean-Claude Biver: Thank you.

Robin Swithinbank: Thank you Jean Claude. 

 Whew. David, as ever an extraordinary conversation with Jean Bivet, a man of extraordinary [00:38:00] passion, extraordinary energy.

He was on his usual table, thumping form. I think we heard him. you'll hear him on the audio, slapping his hands, talking about the underside of his watches and all this kind of stuff. So much energy, so much passion. At 76, I think he is now 76 years old. Um, o to have that much energy, what do you think?

David Sadigh: I think, we need to find a way to launch our own brand as well and try to be surrounded by love because for 76 you can see that is like still like, you know, full of passion and full of energy, creativity and so on. So, Like, that's like, interesting. Obviously the, the Mr. Beaver or Jean Claude is a legend, right?

lots of people are giving lectures on like marketing and management and sponsoring and so on. And I think we all have to, remain extremely humble, because this person has like, probably created some of the most interesting, and compelling playbook of this, of this industry. And I think the fact that, he has done it several times in different contexts, in different like setups, show the fact [00:39:00] that, he probably owned like a secret beaver recipe, that, you know, many people do not necessarily,have.

Robin Swithinbank: That's it. I, I, that's exactly it. I mean, he is still, even at the grand old age of seven, six these days, of course, he's not nearly as frontline as he was when he was running Blonde Power, when he was at Hublot. Uh, when he was at Tag Ho when he was at Zenith, you know, we saw a lot of him and he is, he's a showman.

he is one of the few watch industry showman of the past 50 years, and I think we can put him in the same category as his former boss, Nick Hayek senior. Um, I think, uh, benami, who we've had on the podcast

previously is, is one of the great showmen of the watch industry with the, or at least in contemporary watchmaking. And, the industry needs people like that because they bring vision, they bring dynamism, they bring, they, they inspire teams of people to go and achieve. I don't wanna get too sort of Hagy graphic about it, but more than they probably thought they could achieve. he's clearly a goodness with that level of intensity, that of emotion.

He's not gonna be an easy man to work for. And I think that's certainly been the case for some people. But in [00:40:00] others, he inspires extraordinary, loyalty and extraordinary levels of performance and achievement that they didn't, they, they never recognized themselves before. So, um, the industry needs people like that too. Stimulated and to ensure its future. And I, and I think age captures up with us all at some point, but, and it's a shame that we don't see as much of him as we used to.

David Sadigh: You know, as I, as I was working for like, several of the brands that, he was,leading, I saw him on in action, not just on media or I saw him really in action several times, and I remember that I was kind of mesmerized by his ability to take extremely quick decision based on intuition.

Without necessarily looking at data market research, but in one other end, not being close to data and sometimes looking at the data, the trends and so on, and always finding a way. You know, one day I remember in the morning being in new and he told me, David, did you see the financial times? And I said no.

Robin Swithinbank: He said, Hey, ta Bernie. Look Bernie. They rob him for his ulo. And this is the famous ad [00:41:00] for the listeners who, who do not know these ads type Bernie Ulo on Google and Bernie Cton had all in English and earlier Oh, I dunno, that

David Sadigh: uh,black eye when you got like, you know, when.

Robin Swithinbank: Of course. Yeah. That famous ad,

David Sadigh: So basically Bernie Cton had the black eye and he put Bernie Ecclestone on the cover page of the Financial Times. And same thing with Floyd Made water. Do you remember this famous game? Uh uh uh, match between May Water and Piao, which was like probably the most.

I think two weeks before the, the, the game, he realized that Mayweather didn't add like a sponsor on his shirt. On his shirt. So he said like, oh, I'm going to put Ulo, and he was like the first one. He did the same with soccer. When like the UFI you had the changes of player, people were paying millions to get advertising in soccer.

But he understood very cleverly that in fact the changes of like soccer player were the moment with the highest level of attention and that he could get there. So I think he has a level of street smartness. And, uh,an [00:42:00] ability to redefine and detect opportunities. And as you exactly pointed out, I think is not just like an extremely good strategist.

He's also someone that,has guts try things. and this is like a probably part of, I wouldn't summarize his success to one or two element or pretend that I understood, or decipher this success, but I think this element is something that is not so common in the industry.

Robin Swithinbank: Well, if, DLG doesn't work out, David, we know you've got a future as an impressionist. Um, the, yeah. If we look back at the 20th century as well, look at Rolex and the story of Han Wills Dorf, who was brilliant. he was an opportunist. I think that's, he was obviously a very good marketer, very good merchant.

He, he recognized a. Products, to fill gaps in a way that others didn't. Um, but he was an opportunist. He recognized a moment, he recognized when the world would be tuning in and looking at a thing, a something, an event, and allied his brand to it. And I think that's, that's the playbook which Jean Claude has brought into the 21st century through Hugo in particular.

You've outlined all the examples already. Um, [00:43:00] and, nobody's done it. Nobody's done it. Not many, in certainly watchmaking have done it as well as he has.

Um, and I wonder if, and he was talking about his legacy being love. Of course he was. But um, I wonder if his legacy will be, that will be of aligning the Swiss watch industry to the cultural zeitgeist in a way that very few others were able to do. Um, and for me, that's one of the reasons the industry has been successful over the past 25 years is because it's been incredibly relevant. while producing a product, which ultimately is irrelevant. Um, and he talks about eternity and about the value of MEChA, um, mechanical watches and being able to pass 'em down through generations and so on. But actually, that only really matters if people desired the product in the first place. And he was brilliant, at creating desirability.

David Sadigh: Yeah, no, it'll be interesting to see in the future because obviously as he, he mentioned his personal story probably crafted also part of the, the vision and the way, he developed his own, like, businesses and the, the way he was interacting with brand. But it's true that this entrepreneurial mindset, this [00:44:00] ability to cut corners, this, boldness, this is something that, obviously when you are part of big group.

It's kind of difficult to have because you have like so many compliance rules, checklist, process, policies and so on that I think it eventually kills the creativity. And personally, I'm not surprised that brands such as Char Mill or Ulo or you know, MBNF or many of the other brands that are like successful in the respective segment nowadays are like independent brand because obviously those brands.

They have less money, they have less resources and so on, but they still have some kind of freedom that is very difficult to get. And I think the point that, Jean-Claude mentioned about the startup and the fact that even a 500 million company can be seen as a kind of a small, business depending on which group you, you belong to, I think is kind of an interesting anecdote.

Robin Swithinbank: One of the things that I always get when I speak with Jean Claude, and I've interviewed him many times over the years, is this sort of, sense that rather than, just having done an interview [00:45:00] from which I can take some quotes I can use in a story, is that I've actually received quite a lot of personal wisdom, almost as almost mentoring some coaching. Um, and some of the stories that he's told me over the years have really stayed with me. I'll, I'll just remember one, I remember interviewing him, actually Dubai Watch Week, which is coming up again in a, in a few weeks time, but, which I think six, seven years ago or something at Dubai Watch Week, I was interviewing him and he, he told the story of how even in the down times of the, of the financial crisis of 2008, nine. He would always pay for his sales reps to travel first class to far corners of the earth. While most brands are saying, oh, we need to cut back a bit. Sorry, we're gonna have to fly economy, he would say, no, put my guy in the front of the plane so that when he arrives, he's fresh, he can take a shower, he can get off the plane, feeling like he's ready to go, but also so that he can go into. A retailer, a distributor, and say, Hey, I just flew first class. That creates the perception, of doing very well. And I mean, whether or not you feel, that's the most sort of honest way to conduct business or not is, [00:46:00] is, is sort of neither here nor there at one level. Um, but what it is, it's very effective.

It's very effective at creating the impression of success.

and that's, that, that's something that's always stayed with me and I suspect always

David Sadigh: he started, he started doing that quite early. The story, I was not there, but the stories that Blanc booth at Baselworld, he had not enough people inside, so he was inviting friends and putting, you know, we are closed because like, it's packed. You have to wait to create like, you know, an an illusion of like, people.

Needing to wait in frontline before being able to enter the booth. So, no. No, I think it's like,very interesting. Now, I think one of the key question for me is like. Moving forward with this industry and, with what we're like seeing, you know, many of those groups, like, he mentioned itan taking 20%, 30%, 50% stake, in many of the, let's say, smaller, independent,niche brands.

How this market is going to, further evolve. and, what's going to be like the, the, because now as you, you mentioned, or we mentioned the industry is at 30 [00:47:00] billion, export value, where it was like probably at 10, like 15, 20 years ago. is it going to continue? You know, do we have the space for this industry to continue to thrive?

but I think that's a good opportunity of following up with like, upcoming speakers as part of the Luxury Society Podcast. Robin,

Robin Swithinbank: I, I, I sensed a slight sadness in him when reflecting on the fact that the

industry isn't going to grow in terms of volume. Um, he will no doubt look back fondly on that season, during the seventies, eighties, and nineties, and into this. Into this millennium when, when volumes are increasing, having of course been slashed, during the courts crisis as it's known. Um, but I think he's absolutely right to, well, first of all, I admire him for saying that he doesn't know what's gonna happen. that that was, that's a, a quality that, is to be respected, a response that is to be respected. But, it does seem increasingly clear that the future of the Swiss watch industry lies in the low volume. Lies in the art and the craft of watchmaking and of appealing to a consumer who can afford to [00:48:00] spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Swiss francs on a watch. it's interesting that a lot of the younger brands that we're seeing coming through this, this, the smaller brands, are pitching themselves at that level 

They're exceptions, like, I dunno, like a nor end, for example, which is clearly aiming at the

mainstream, right? Or mainstream luxury I should say. Um, but most of those brands that are coming through, like there Biver are starting with very low volumes and very high prices as, as they look to appeal to an audience that, as

Jean Claude said, well they want art.

and art will never die. 

David Sadigh: And I think the, you know, the value of like the ology segment and so on, you can really see that this is, this has been like one of the driving force for the overall industry. And you know, what we're like seeing is that. Basically at some point with those Apple watches and so on, there will be so many captors embedded into the watch, about lots of different health related elements and so on, that I'm pretty sure we will end up in a situation where your insurance premium, or like health insurance are going to decrease.

If you will, like, wear the watch on a [00:49:00] daily basis and so on. So they will be exactly like with the car industry. There will be incentives at some point that push people not just to go on electric cars, but also to wear like smart watches and so on. So I think being able to position the industry as like, you know, element of statue, element of art, element of design, element of investment, long lasting investment and so on.

This is probably part of like the winning playbook.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I agree. David, look, we, we must wrap, there and, um, be thankful that we got the chance to speak to Jean Claude on the podcast and, um, look forward to our, our next adventure. see you on the.

David Sadigh: Thanks, Robin.

Robin Swithinbank: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury right now.

I've been your host, Robin Swithinbank, and this has been the Luxury [00:50:00] Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.