Unbottling beauty: Giulio Bergamaschi on Acqua di Parma’s secret recipe

In this episode of The Luxury Society Podcast, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh explore two major forces reshaping luxury: the rise of AI and the evolution of high-end fragrance. Robin begins by interviewing David about DLG’s new report, The State of AI in Luxury, revealing why brands feel urgency around AI yet remain stuck in early-stage experimentation – held back by data fragmentation, talent gaps, and cultural resistance. 

The hosts then speak with Giulio Bergamaschi, CEO of Acqua di Parma, who discusses the polarisation of the beauty market, the rise of layering and scent “zoning,” and how the brand balances Italian heritage with new consumer behaviours and digital expectations. 

Tune in for:
- How luxury groups gain an edge through data, governance and talent
- Why Acqua di Parma sees Italian ‘art of living’ as a key differentiator
- How layering, zoning and social media culture are reshaping fragrance norms
- Balancing exclusivity, wholesale partnerships and curated omnichannel growth

Brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. 

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield 2025 https://www.fallowfieldmason.com/ 

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Robin Swithinbank: Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your host Robins Swithinbank. 

David Sadigh: And I am your cohost, David Sadigh..

Robin Swithinbank: In this podcast, David and I look to unpick the fill agreed world of high-end international luxury, asking how it works as we interview brand bosses and top level analysts and apply them for information about the good, the bad, and the downright difficult of an industry.

No one can quite take their eyes off. In this episode, we are turning the table slightly shortly. I'll be putting David in the interviewee hot seat and asking him about the results of d G's. Fascinating recent AI survey, which gives us a revealing insight into how luxury brands and groups are adopting new technologies and the challenges.

These are throwing up. Then he'll slip back round the other side of the net. And join me as we interview Julio Bergam, mahi, chief Executive of the Luxury Italian perfumer, Aqua de Parma. Julio helps us navigate this segment of the fast moving, highly competitive, and [00:01:00] currently fairly uneven beauty category, as well as something called perfume layering.

Have you tried it? Those conversations coming up. So David, on with the show. 

David Sadigh: Let's do it. 

Giulio Bergamaschi: if you only think innovation as the first example, top down, you are going soon become irrelevant. 

I don't think AI should replace a human, especially on everything that is, creative.

 Acqua di Parma is not only. Fragrance, brand it is a fragrance and an art of living brand and I believe that this is a great point of difference   in the moment in which influencers.

Stop to speak the right language, and so they're no longer relevant and stop to do an authentic curation. they tend to lose their reason to exist.

 I believe.

The beauty is going to go more and more toward the direction of, service as well, rather than simple, physical product. being Italian is a great asset everywhere. [00:02:00] 

Robin Swithinbank: Okay, we're gonna start this episode a little differently and first turn our attentions to the oblique, often bewildering world of artificial intelligence ai. Now, in any other year, the rapid advance of AI into not just luxury, but our everyday lives might have been daily headline news, but while it's been on everyone's mind, it keeps getting bumped onto page two by what is now a catalog of landscape altering events.

Even so the subject of AI is one. David and I have returned to with our guests time and again this season most have acknowledged that they're using it, that its integration into their businesses is inevitable, and that they recognize they're nowhere near realizing its full potential. But at the same time, some have expressed concerns about its impact on their labor force.

It's threat to intellectual property and how it can be used in the creative process without breaking the human connection that so often defines luxury. Earlier this month, DLG released a report in collaboration with the esteemed Swiss International Watch magazine, Europa Star called the State of AI in [00:03:00] Luxury.

And who else would we turn to to discuss this report and its findings, then the Luxury Society Podcast's Very own. David Sadig, DLG, founder, and CEO. So David, give us the elevator pitch. Why conduct this survey and what's in it? 

David Sadigh: Yeah, I'm usually the one like asking question with you. So now I have to change,seat to change seats a bit.

Robin Swithinbank: On the other foot now.

David Sadigh: now the, what we found really interesting is that obviously everyone is talking about ai. Everyone is fully conscious of the fact that it's going to be one of the biggest revolution ever.

probably on par with the industrial revolution. Now as far as the luxury industry is concerned, there were not like enough information and facts about the level of adoption of AI within the luxury industry. So, by teaming up with Europe as our goal was really trying to decipher. The key trends try to understand what was the reality of the adoption level.

So for that, basically we, surveyed more than 250 people, including, more than two third [00:04:00] of senior leadership, folks, a, the csuite or director level, most of them, running global scope and,60% of them being either directly. Are strongly influencing AI and technology investment approval. And, basically we discovered a couple of things that are like, kind of, interesting.

the first one is that everyone seems to be like, convinced about the importance of AI adoption, with 71% of the respondents saying that. AI adoption cannot be delayed. 43% of them saying it's going to come in the next six to 12 months. Um, but basically, while there is this sense of urgency, 55%, more than half of them being stuck in the early stage of either exploration or experimentation.

Why, why? Why would they be stuck? How would they define being stuck?

Being stuck means that they're like still playing, experimenting, but that either the guidelines, the [00:05:00] governance, the rules, the tools or the culture is not suited to really leverage ai. and you can really understand,looking at the results that there is a major gap between the ambition and the reality.

Robin Swithinbank: And so there are clearly quite a few who have adopted it or who have already integrated it and maybe have even optimized it. What are you seeing? Are there brands who are already very successfully using AI who've successfully adopted it into their businesses? I.

David Sadigh: Yeah, no, absolutely. You have first you have a brand range of like different AI use cases. some of them using it a lot for content creation. That's one of the most common use case. I would say, you know, people trying to create more assets for their social media communication, people trying to, build content, platform or try to get some support from copywriting.

But you can also see that some of the brands are much more advanced, like already using, you know, price algorithm, leveraging AI to better understand price elasticity, using also [00:06:00] AI tools to better segment their client database. Try to better understand what type of client segment. Is,responsive to what type of content type or what type of triggers?

so indeed you have like a, a, a broad range, and I would say that globally speaking, the brands that are like being owned by groups, and you and I had this discussion several times together on the pod with some of our guests, but in this specific case, the brands who are being owned by the big group, obviously, those groups are a bit more advanced in term of data collection, data harmonization.

So this give them usually a edge. To be a bit more at the forefront of AI adoption.

Robin Swithinbank: Which tools are these guys using and what are they doing with them?

David Sadigh: The interesting part is that 73% of the, the, the interviewees, are like using OpenAI. so chat, GPT, that's not a surprise. The surprise come from Google Gemini. That comes second with more than 40%, of the, users,leveraging on on Gemini. And you can see that Microsoft copilot is coming right after, as most of you [00:07:00] know, copilot, of Microsoft is also strongly powered by, uh, open ai.

So you can really see that there is a strong battle right now going on within the luxury industry between open AI and Google. should we have looked at the, for example, law firms, outside of the, industry or at the banking. We would've probably found out tropic with cloud being much stronger.

but within the luxury industry, we can really,let's say, see that the battle is between open AI and.

Robin Swithinbank: And broadly speaking, are you finding that brands are using AI as a compliment to their labor force, or are they starting to replace their labor force with AI tools?

David Sadigh: You know what we are seeing from the survey is that at the moment it's not necessarily in replacement, but all the other studies, and especially coming from the US, are showing that you have more and more. Challenges, especially for junior people when they join the companies and starting their career, that it's becoming much more, much more difficult, to land a job, at the age [00:08:00] of ai.

So I wouldn't be surprised to see that in a couple of months you have like HR department, that ally being supported by ai, professional reviewing many of the. New openings and trying to see how they can potentially rationalize and, optimize. And as a result of that, obviously you will see more and more agents replacing part of the workforce, not necessarily, you know, as a salespeople or not necessarily for relationship, related task, but obviously for other, let's say more internal.

pricing, merchandising, marketing, content creation, maybe even supply chain. I think we are like going to,witness like,more and more adoption of agent tick solutions. So agent that are able to potentially automate, task from a, to.

Robin Swithinbank: Gosh, that last observation has sent, sent a little bit of a shiver down my spine, I've gotta say. But, um, look, let's be blunt to those brands who have handed over workflows to AI or who are indeed in a position where they're starting to see AI [00:09:00] replace some people, some roles are, are they starting to become more profitable?

Are they saving money?

David Sadigh: We, we are not able to see it yet. I think we are just at the beginning of the transformation, but obviously that's one of the, that's one of the business case at the moment. Based on the survey, we only have 6%, of the respondent who are saying that they benefit within the organization of ai.

Workflows that are working in full independence, which means that 94% of the AI usage still involved human uh uh, during some of the stages of the process. But this is going to change,quite quickly, and you can really see that amongst the obstacles that the companies are facing. You have the data fragmentation.

Data fragmentation is one of the most important issue. In fact, nearly like 37% of the answers we received are from executives mentioning that data fragmentation, the fact that there are different [00:10:00] databases and that the current data structure is not necessarily clean enough, to be leveraged by ai.

This is right now one of the elements that prevent a broader adoption. but we also know, by working with many of them, that companies are investing quite significantly at the moment. And I think, you know, we got also this feedback, from,Fran Miller during the, the podcast about,RAF.

Where she mentioned that, you know, the, the data foundational element was part of her key priorities. She's not alone in that. I think many executives right now are trying to focus on that while also, and that's the second important point, Robin, trying to reassess their talent skills. What are the talents that are going to be needed in the future, and how to ensure that they can also train their workforce so that people can more effectively leverage on those AI tools.

Robin Swithinbank: What are the difficulties have there been beyond data fragmentation in AI adoption?

David Sadigh: One of the major one is the, people [00:11:00] reluctance to, adopt, AI tools. So, obviously, we have been seeing that, both at DLG but also with our clients. In some countries like China, where the culture is very top down, you know, when the bus say you have to use this tool or do, this process in that way.

The level of commitment and execution without discussing the orders are like, is much higher. obviously in other type of organization it takes more time. People are a bit more let's say in a more,open-minded type of discussion, challenging and, and so on situation. So, long story short, I think that companies are going to face some significant, obstacles when it come to the human adoption.

People either rejecting AI are not willing to basically embrace, fully ai. and it's going to take a bit of time, I think, to ensure that the, team members are properly onboarded.

Robin Swithinbank: Interesting. Yeah. I'm tempted to, to empathize with those who are a little bit reluctant, as you know. But, well look, if you are a brand and you are still at the exploring or experimenting [00:12:00] stage stuck as you described it, are they, are they too late or is there still time to catch up?

David Sadigh: Obviously, I think it depends on your, let's say markets and, and, market and positioning, in this market. If you are like the brand leader, and let's say you are like the ES or the Rolex of this word, and let's assume, I'm not saying that they are, but let's assume that you decided not to fully embrace, AI yet.

I think because of your market position, you can probably look around. And, learn from the experiences of others. And you know that the day you will decide to like, you know, bridge the gap, you are going to invest massively and you will be at least on par, if not better than the others. I think the, the question is much different when it comes to the brands that are not the most dominant actors in the market.

and the challenge for them, I think, is to very quickly realize that they are like facing competitors. Who are able to generate much more engagement across social media because they automatically build [00:13:00] highly engaging assets that they are like building better video. That they are like able to better understand their client needs, that they are able to decipher maybe some of the colors, trends, patterns that can help in product development.

So I think that would be like probably one of the, important,Yeah, challenge and type of brand that is especially, at risk,

Robin Swithinbank: You are clearly very knowledgeable about this and goodness, you, you run a company that specializes in,digital products. So sum it up for us if you could. In your view, what impact is AI going to have on the luxury industry over the next 12 to 24 months?

David Sadigh: I think you are going to see more and more,brands. Using algorithm to better understand their market and try to understand basically what are the type of clients that are like. interested by their product. It's going to continue to, change the way they, allocate their media budget.

and we can see that with some of our clients at the moment. Lots [00:14:00] of, them are like even revisiting the way they interact with journalists. trying to think at who are right. The journalists or the influencers, that really,carry the cloud that is needed, you know, depending on the type of client segment that they want to reach.

So, personally I don't see one type of,field or use case within the luxury that is not going to be impacted. If you look at the sales training of you know, staff, boutique. retail, people is going to be,impacted. If you look at marketing communication, we spoke about it. I think you look at finance, supply chain management, even real estate, you know, the ability to identify traffic in which street, where do I need to open, like a potential new point of sales, et cetera.

I think it's going to have an impact, across the board. And, obviously it doesn't mean that they won't be. Also, lots of brands disappointing, by ai. In my opinion, the question is not so much about whether, all the brands will be successful [00:15:00] or not, it's more about the competitive advantage that, would be created by the brands who are able to fully integrate, relevant AI use cases as part of their business strategy.

Robin Swithinbank: Interesting stuff. let's give you the opportunity, uh, for a quick plug, uh, brand execs listening to this, wanting to get to grips with the luxury AI landscape. What can, uh, you guys at DLG do for them?

David Sadigh: So the first thing is we strongly recommend them to, download, the report and,they can, find the, report,on the DLG website and on luxury society as well. And I think one of the key question is, how to benchmark their organization compared to some of the, let's say, most advanced,brands.

So at the moment, what we do is like delivering workshop session. We had one last week. We are like going to have, many others in the, in the week to come and allowing companies to really understand what's their current AI maturity level, against some of their industry peers. Try to identify what are like the most relevant high impact use [00:16:00] cases from consumer insight, creative content operation, and obviously being able to address some of the key obstacles, including the data fragmentation, the governance challenges, so that we can help in, building, some very concrete action plan, leverage, on some of the experience.

we had. And I think last but not least, it's very important to start,establish budget, structure, success metrics, start training programs as well. And we have created a dedicated team, led here in, in Geneva by, Dominic. There, our strategy director, former Richmore. Exec. We spent more than 25 years at, at Richmore working in different digital transformation role, and Dominic is obviously supported by many of the other colleague, some of them who will probably join the podcast in the near future.

Robin, in a nutshell, our understanding is that this is just the beginning of a journey. That is going to last at least until 2030. it's probably to some regards, quite in line with the beginning of the internet. [00:17:00] The only big difference is that right now you have billion of users, a billion people with their cell phones, and as we have seen, there is no technology in history that got such a massive adoption in such a short timeframe.

So I'm pretty sure we'll have the opportunity to follow up in some of our upcoming podcasts.

Robin Swithinbank: No doubt. and I look forward to those conversations. As you know, I'm, not necessarily a subscriber to the move fast and break things mantra, but we'll have some, interesting philosophical conversations about that at some point in the future, I'm sure. But look for now, fascinating conversation.

Really interesting listening to you describe all of that. Um, very insightful indeed. but we must move on. so let's now turn to our conversation with Julia Berger.

Massi.

So some fresh, perhaps even fragrant, new territory for the Luxury Society Podcast as we head into the beauty category for the first time, and to Italy where we find Aqui de Palmer.

And today's guest, Julia Bergam, the Italian luxury perfumers chief Executive. Aqui Palmer was founded a little over a hundred years ago in the Italian city of [00:18:00] Palmer, and through the mid 20th century would draw in high society with its light, often floral scent, such as its signature, original fragrance colonial.

The company would be acquired by the French luxury conglomerate, LVMH in 2001, and remains part of the group now with its headquarters in Milan. Today it retails its fragrances around the world, adding soaps, grooming candles, leather wear, and luxury homewares to its product portfolio, but its most famous look remains.

Its instantly recognizable. Bright yellow, cylindrical, hatbox packaging and regal logo. Julio was appointed in March, 2023 after a stint at lpi.

Aqui Palmer's, LVMH, stable mate. And before that he spent almost two decades with L'Oreal, including a five year spell as the company's brand and product development lead in China.

He joins us today from Milan. Julio, lovely to see you. Thank you so much for coming on the Luxury Society Podcast. How are you?

Giulio Bergamaschi: I'm great, Robin. Thank you very much. Urano to you and Urano to David.

David Sadigh: Welcome, Julia.

Robin Swithinbank: Well, let's, [00:19:00] let's take a sort of big picture view to start with Julia, if we can. The beauty market is what's, from where I'm sitting, it seems to be giving off mixed vibes at the moment. LVMH reported a return to growth for its perfumes in cosmetics division in Q3. but then in October we saw luxury giant carrying, announcing it was selling off its beauty portfolio to your old paymasters at L'Oreal for $4.6 billion.

What trends are you observing in beauty and particularly in luxury fragrance at the moment?

Giulio Bergamaschi: What we see from our perspective is,polarized situation across markets and across, price brackets, of course, the whole industry, of course,is challenged. Some slowing, of the economy, especially from the east, that has been, the driver, the growth driver in, in the last years, demand remains, solid, I must say, in, Europe, in Middle East, in America.

still in terms of price brackets, we see, polarization, consumers and clients are asking either for, A costly, [00:20:00] original and creative offer either, trading down. so what we see is a slowing in the, bracket of price between 100 and 200, euros. But what is above and can justify its positioning, and its value above, seems not to suffer.

And of course, what is more, democratic is, is finding, so below. Euro is also finding, some new, dynamics. So, all in all, the market is slower versus five years ago, or three years ago, but, there are still posh de croissants. There are still, growth opportunities across the market, across, of course, what has become more and more obvious is that clients are raising the bar in terms of.

Expectation and in terms of what they consider, uh, value and, and, and a good deal for them.

David Sadigh: this might sound like a terrible pun, but the fragrance market today seems to be heavily saturated. How hard is it to stand out in such a crowded market? And [00:21:00] basically what's your strategy, as far as differentiation is concerned?

Giulio Bergamaschi: It's true that everywhere in the world, even in markets that historically were not fragrance driven market. And I think about Asia in this, we see, a blossoming of, new players,the niche fragrance, market. also because of the. Online distribution has now found a way to break, entry barriers.

And so, in the market in which, the long tail of players get is getting longer. Longer. all those players very frequently, try to, surf what is the hype, so, what is the latest trend in town, and if they don't try to surf the latest trend in town, they try to break the codes and look.

Totally, different. and once you play the outsider and you look totally different in year one. if beyond that, there is no substance, it's difficult to perpetuate the [00:22:00] performance in year two because of course, in year two year, no longer the new cool kid in town. Our recipe in this,is not a big surprise.

We have, the chance of leading. A heritage brand. it's a Maison that in 2026, will celebrate 110 years, of tradition. this has allowed us,since the beginning to stay above trends and to be true to what our. Values are. Then of course, this doesn't mean that we allow ourself to, become old, dusty, and not relevant.

Our job is to. Keep, our values at our heart, but constantly evolve our language in order to stay relevant. it's not just a matter of tone of voice, it's also a matter of client insight. 

You mentioned hype and it's interesting to consider, consistency and as you said, heritage against that backdrop. Of course, your heritage is not your only assets. you are, [00:23:00] you're Italian, you, I meanEuropean perhaps by extension. How powerful is being Italian in new markets in China, in India, in the Middle East, in, in territories around the world that are turning on to, to aqui Palmer and to the world of luxury fragrance.

I would say first of all that being Italian is a great asset everywhere. As long as, being Italian and Art of Living Italian is already a clear, topic for clients, or in some, let's take for instance, America in the United States, there is a clear idea of what Italianity and Art, Italian Art of Living stands for.

So of course is a great asset, as long of course as you are. Consistently, leveraging and integrating, those values in what you're doing. Then there are younger markets like China in East for instance, in which they are a bit less familiar in what Italian Art of Living means, for instance, they're well aware of what Italy is, but they're less familiar with the [00:24:00] concept of Italian art of living. And there it's an asset as long as you're capable of explaining it in a very understandable and insightful way.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Interesting. Well, one of the trends that I've picked up in fragrance when I've been, looking into this subject, for our interview is, I is perfume layering. I'd never come across perfume layering before for the pre, if you are in the audience and you've not, come across this term before, like me, for the previously uninitiated, it's a practice born in the Middle East, I think generations ago, whereby people were multiple scents simultaneously to create an individual profile.

six or 7 cents at a time. It's one of these, trends that's been pushed hard by TikTok influencers and adopted most readily by the Gen Z market. As I understand it. Judo is this a threat to fragrance makers like Aqui Palmer, who are known for and might rely on customers buying into a single signature scent?

Giulio Bergamaschi: World has changed in the past. in the past, everything in our world was top down, who had the mic was speaking and he was the only voice heard. In the world of today is [00:25:00] no longer like that. Think about what happened in the news. So same thing is happening also in, in product innovation. you can see product innovation as a top down, process as it was in the past and as it also can be in the future.

Or you can see innovation as a bottom up process. as we. Think,of what is, what is happening with TikTok. if you only think innovation as the first example, top down, you are going soon become irrelevant. so in my opinion, we can't ignore what client insights are and how, clients are evolving.

We need to match and we need to find the perfect common ground in. Top down and bottom up innovation. So I don't think it's gonna be a threat. I think it's gonna be a threat either if you ignore it either, if you bluntly take it too literally. I think we have to find a common ground in which we integrate what [00:26:00] Amazon is, what, an artistic and creative vision is, and how this can be respected and put at the service of new way of using.

product. There is layering, there is a zoning, and I'm sure there are gonna be many more in the future. Layering, of course, is applying one layer after the other, in terms of fragrances. But, I come from an extensive skincare experience and I can tell you for instance, that in Asia. Clients do the same thing since forever.

with skincare, they use a prescence and then an essence, and then a moisturizer, and then a shield. And there's nothing you can do about that to prevent doing this 

Robin Swithinbank: So we see layering in fragrance these days. We're seeing the zoning. Zoning is, for instance, you apply on your wrist, one kind of fragrance, and then you apply on your neck another kind of fragrance. I also find this, extremely interesting. Of course, what we're doing these days Does that mean that we're gonna see you doing fragrance primers or layering sets? That kind of stuff that, that all feels quite trendy rather than the sort of products that we might expect to see from a heritage [00:27:00] brand. Although I know Chanel does a fragrance primer, so clearly Heritage brands can do this and equally, how quickly can you respond to the market to get out these new products?

Giulio Bergamaschi: For instance, what we already do is that we integrated these reflexes in our training. But for instance, I can tell you that the backbone of our meso,which is colon colonia, by itself we know how many people love colonial. We also know that some people. Prefer other kind of fragrances, But what we notice is that colonial thanks to its uplifting note can become a fantastic. Base to, make much brighter and much more luminous. What would be a darker, which would be a heavier and thicker, fragrance, for instance? So, I can tell you that Lon is where the Meison was born, is one of the most iconic fragrances in the world, and it already

naturally and organically applies to this idea of layering by bringing some [00:28:00] uplifting notes that can make even a a heavy fragrance,more luminous.

David Sadigh: my understanding, Julio, is that being part of,LVMH and obviously owning, multiple precious asset in beauty and distribution, my understanding is that you have access to a lot of the trends and the consumer behavior and information beyond your own, customers. how does it shape or influence the view and the customer perspective, and maybe also the future outlook for our credit department?

Giulio Bergamaschi: strongly, believe, that, reports, are interesting. But,they set the frame in my opinion,and this kind of frame is something that, that many players around the market can have then that what you need to add always, and this is what will make you winning or not is your eyes.

and your heart and your ears in the market. It's truly going out there looking. Everything that is happening is speaking with clients in the stores, with young people. When we do our travel in the markets. In my opinion, this, especially for small [00:29:00] houses, that don't do extensive volumes, this is a much richer, source of insight.

also on brands and on markets in which creativity is so important. we're not speaking about clothing soap. We're not speaking about shampoo. We're speaking about niche fragrance brands. The creative, standpoint within, of course, a given frame of tight geist is much more important to emerge when you are small.

David Sadigh: so you. Don't believe artificial intelligence is going to replace human insight and creativity anytime soon.

Giulio Bergamaschi: There are so many things that artificial intelligence will do for us, in my opinion, in the future. I believe, We have to choose where we want artificial intelligence to help us. There are some tasks that are very repetitive, that are very time consuming. I'm sure, AI will help us in a great deal on those, so we can better concentrate and focus on what I call the. humanism or the new

humanism. This is really [00:30:00] where I'm heading. Aqua department, humanism was a movement that had a big representation in Italy and was putting,mankind as a measure of everything and mankind at the center. I think that Amazon, like Acqua di Parma needs to walk away as much as it can from standardisation and embrace much more.

Human and time dimension.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Does, does that mean you, you can't really conceive of a day when you commission an AI designed fragrance or accessory or an AI generated marketing campaign where there's a human connection. You are always gonna have the human at the center of it, leave AI to do inventory management and, I don't know, retail and what, whatever else AI can be used to make more efficient and more cost effective.

Giulio Bergamaschi: Absolutely, or you can have AI to further empower, a creative person but not replace it at all. if you are a creative person, without means, AI can give you more means,but I don't think AI should [00:31:00] replace a human, especially on everything that is, creative.

Robin Swithinbank: You mentioned, online distribution, becoming more and more developed and, the long tail robbin. You mentioned also new channels such as TikTok and so on. I guess it has been quite of a challenge to, keep the brand exclusive and well positioned in such a fragmented world. what's your view on that?

Giulio Bergamaschi: It is a big challenge because,What you need to,to cross bridge is on one side an amazing experience. And this can only happen, in a physical world. but amazing experience,by definition cannot beat, scaled, endlessly. and at the same time, you need to congregate and cross bridge.

Reach a minimum of availability without becoming too available. because everything that's human nature, everything that is too easy to be grabbed, too easy to be obtained, loses,a bit of interest. So I believe, that we need to ensure. An elevated experience, whether it is offline or online.

Offline. I'm sure you can [00:32:00] visualize what an next elevated experience is. Online can go through an elevated experience as well. It depends what, the service to guide you within the navigation of the sites are, the information you get, the delivery you have,the kind of experience of the unboxing.

you have the way in which, we will. Play omnichannel. I spent many years in China, between 2013 and 2018, and there they, they started having a vision of not online against offline, but what was called O plus o, online plus offline. So how you can find complimentary. Roles between those two.This, in my opinion, is what we need to go after. And as I said before, we cannot compromise online on, experience. There is a certain kind of experience that is very much human driven offline. There is another kind of experience that is [00:33:00] less human, but it still needs to be extremely qualitative on the online part.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, that, that spurs me to, to thinking about, how you face the consumer, how you present yourself to the consumer. As I understand it, you have only, and I say only around 1800 points of sale around the world, which I think is quite small relative to some of the big players in the fragrance world who might have 25,000 points of sale.

how do you select these points of sale Is 1800 enough? and similarly, I think around your boutiques, I think you've got 15 boutiques at the moment. how do you prioritize where these go? Tell us a little bit more about this offline experience that you're describing and how you,how you get it right.

Giulio Bergamaschi: we are around 40, boutiques, these days,as we speak, in the world. And we are, yes, pretty much, 1800 point of sales, in the world. when you mention 25,000 doors, you're probably referring to,selective market, but not niche fragrance brands and not ultra selective, market.

So let's talk about wholesale and then we're gonna talk about, D two C. in my opinion, a brand like Aqua Palmer [00:34:00] cannot only rely, on D two C. that's why, we need to rely on wholesale. when we rely on wholesale, we need to, we need to take in account,where, Where we can find potential, and why potential is important. Because we can only offer a good experience if we have a potential Bain. Of clients if there is not enough traffic for us, we have a higher, price positioning compared to some selective brand.

So, of course,we're gonna have less. If you take 25,000 door in the 20,000 door, our potential is gonna be smaller, because of our positioning, because of our price positioning. so we could never be capable of affording a higher experience in this kind of door. So we have to narrow down, our focus in those stores where.

Our clients are basically, and on those stores, make sure that we [00:35:00] can offer them a compelling experience that still makes sure that it has a business sense for us to be there. Then, we also need to build, more and more elevated experiences, because we all know that in all sale, you can think about independent fragrance shops or chains or department stores.

But there is a limit in terms of size, of assortment. There is a limiting in terms of experience that you can offer. So for these reasons, aqua department has developed in the last. 10 years, a network of boutique, boutique that should not replace. Wholesale distribution, but it should compliment pretty much one or two in every strategic market.

Take Italy. We have two, one in Milan, one in Rome. Take, France. We have one in Paris and we have, a seasonal one in San Tropic. take the United States. We have one in Miami. Take Middle East. We have, a couple more,

Robin Swithinbank: not in the uk. I understand. Is that right? No. There isn't one in

Giulio Bergamaschi: yet. not yet.

Robin Swithinbank: Not [00:36:00] yet. You said with a smile. Does that mean it's coming

Giulio Bergamaschi: knows. But, so far, so far we have just renewed our counter at heart.

It's a beautiful one. and we are very happy so far, on the plan of transforming our top doors in the UK once. we will have done this, foundation job of renovating our experience in the very top doors in the uk. of course, it would be natural to ask ourself whether we cannot go beyond in terms of an experience.

We want to have in every key market a temper of the brand, Of course, having this is a challenge because,it's very costly, 

 so in certain market is easier, in certain market is more difficult to have the greatest experience and the right level of profitability that makes this sustainable, voila.

This,lead me to another question in preparation for this interview, Robin and I were looking at your gifting collection. we've noticed that you have a lot of different items this year. why is it necessary to present consumers [00:37:00] with such a wide range of products, when your signature sense might be expected to do the heavy lifting during the gifting season?

In my opinion is a way to signify on one standpoint who you are, and on the other point to signify the importance of top doors, what I mean is Acqua di Parma is not only. Fragrance, brand it is a fragrance and an art of living brand and I believe that this is a great point of difference compared to most of our competitors.

So having, an offer, a wide, assortment that integrates fragrances and art of living objects that feature, the best craftsmanship and the best design, with an Italian identity is a fantastic way to express our point of difference. On another standpoint, we manage our.

Distribution,that is not 25,000, but is not 50 at the same time. So for us, it's very important to, to have a [00:38:00] different assortment in our top doors, to offer a better experience Whether we're talking about le whether we're talking about our boutique, we want to have, More elevated and wider environment in those doors. that's why this wider assortment is present and is fully dedicated to those doors. And our signature fragrances, they do the heavy lifting, in terms of volumes, of course. and in terms of business and the.

Robin Swithinbank: Go all across our distributions. Yeah. in a similar vein,we've seen that, uh, your starting, well, no, you're not starting, but you frequently collaborate, your holiday 2025 collection, for example, you collaborated with the architect and designer, Christina Celestino. not so long ago, just a couple of months back, you announced the Acqui, Palmer and Maserati collection.

how reliant do you have to be on collaborations like these co-branded products to amp up your business?

Giulio Bergamaschi: Rather than co-branded, I believe that what we are, developing is, Is a brand,built on the best [00:39:00] craftsmanship, made, all the time vibrant, compelling, surprising by a modern language. And I believe that collaborating or if you prefer inviting, guest creative director in the house to use every time, amazing.

New traditional craft, coming from Italy and putting them at the service of. A vibrant design, is exciting. So this is what I've been asking to Christina Tino, to, uh,what I asked to India Avi, last year. Every time we play with the codes of the house, we, find a new superlative and traditional, craftsmanship techniques in Italy, and we, transform them.

And make them surprising and exciting through their design. And their design is always a revisitation of the codes, of aqua department. 

Speaking of, collaboration. Uh,Julia, you have, uh, worked recently with the influencer [00:40:00] guy, who strong in cheek approach to luxury seems to have become, rather more serious of late. at the time when there is a talk of like influencer fatigue, how important are influencers to, Aqua Parma and, now that we're like heading into 2026, how do you intend to engage with them, for future collaboration?

influencers are important as long as they are credible and authentic. What is great about, influencers. why they started to become,important, is because they were capable of speaking the language, of a moment and they were capable of making,added value curation in the moment in which influencers.

Stop to speak the right language, and so they're no longer relevant and stop to do an authentic curation. they tend to lose their reason to exist. 

 When you speak about Start Guy, start guy represents. discernment. The what, he used to say, the, if you know, you know,approach, he has been [00:41:00] one of the. Ambassadors of a luxury that is not loud, A luxury that is built on taste a luxury that, is timeless. Those are all, values that resonate with the audience of SAI and with, what Aqua Depart stands for. So it's quite of an organic choice for us.

David Sadigh: So you believe that in the future, such collaboration are going to either increase or remain quite I would say stable.

Giulio Bergamaschi: we will probably increase them, but in the same way, we will increase our share voice in the next years. I believe it's a matter of right mix. One cannot replace the other,

Robin Swithinbank: Is this one of the reasons why you don't tend to work with, celebrity ambassadors? We don't tend to see giant billboards or TV ads with a-list actors pushing aqui Palmer.

Giulio Bergamaschi: I believe In life. There is never a do on Dante that always last, forever. I just believe that everything you do needs to be done for a reason. and if the reason is leveraging the [00:42:00] awareness of, a celebrity, in order to raise the awareness, of a logo. I think this is not at all the strategy that Aqua Palmer has pursued and will pursue in the future.

this doesn't mean that one day we will not ever work with very talented people that can help us tell a fantastic story.

Robin Swithinbank: Never say never.

David Sadigh: Yeah, you spend many years in China. and, obviously we, we all know that, this slowdown has been like affecting China now for quite a while. but we know also that the market is like much more different than from 10 or 15 years ago. what's your view on the Chinese market? what's your view on the, perfume slash beauty,market in China more specifically?

Giulio Bergamaschi: I love your question. when I moved to China in 2013 within the industry, everybody was thinking that China would've soon become the biggest mass market, in the world, so everybody was, betting big time in,  semi-selective [00:43:00] skincare or in, highly distributed shampoo, for instance.

Funnily enough, it didn't go that way because generation after generation, new clients made surface in China. Clients that didn't want to look like the others and clients that had more, Purchasing power and were capable of using online commerce to go beyond, the entry barriers of distribution.

And so, a,me generation with more purchasing power without distribution barriers made the luxury market booming in China. And that is very interesting and was not at all what was, foreseen, at the beginning. and if you think about the success in China, of certain super premium hair care brands, for instance, that become huge.

This is exactly the mechanism behind then how it is evolving. Not only, it's, an evolution of [00:44:00] personality, the Me Me Me generation, not only it's a per evolution of their money spending, power, but it's a, it's an evolution also of their taste. Of their discernment. And this is what we see. we see now we see clients in China that are more and more demanding, that want to know more and more about what they're buying.

They want absolutely to have a different product than their peers, not just to differentiate. Themselves, but because they have a taste and they like different things. And this is very interesting. In the end is contributing to make the market much more, uh elevated. exciting and much more demanding.

Robin Swithinbank: You demanding is a good word. And actually, Julia, just before we, end this conversation, I'm conscious we've had a lot of your time. I did just wanna ask you a question around value. the beauty industry is often being criticized for. Underdelivering on value. Consumers complain of getting these oversized packages, big boxes that then end up containing quite small bottles, which actually is, uh, a criticism that I don't think is, has been leveled at Aqui [00:45:00] Palmer.

Your boxes and your bottles are more or less the same size, but, does the beauty industry have a value problem? And if it does, do you think it's solvable?

Giulio Bergamaschi: I think it does, I think there's gonna be more and more value creation around, around beauty product because the way I see beauty product is more and more of a holistic kind of value proposition rather than a product I believe.

The beauty is going to go more and more toward the direction of, service as well, rather than simple, physical product. 

I like that as a philosophy very much. Julia, before we let you go, I just have to ask you one very soft. Question. We're rolling into Christmas. Some lucky folk will be opening the first door on their Acqui Palmer adv calendar not long from now. So, if you are choosing an Acqui Palmer gift to put under the tree this year, which would it be?

Robin Swithinbank: And why?

Giulio Bergamaschi: I would choose, The candle, the stu candle that Christina Cino did, design for Aqua Parma is a beautiful, alpine inspired object. Stua is in, in, in the [00:46:00] dialect of the Dolomites. It's the oven that, that keeps the chalet, warm in which there is a beautiful fire. 

The scents are all Christmasy Holiday Boco andoni to, so I would take this as a

Robin Swithinbank: Yes, I think I would as well, having seen those on your website, they are very beautiful. So I do hope that my wife is listening to this podcast. Hello darling. Um,Julia, we must put a stopper in the bottle of our conversation, and thank you so much for being our first beauty guest on the Luxury Society Podcast.

It has been an absolute pleasure speaking to you.

Giulio Bergamaschi: Likewise. Thank you very much, Robin. Thank you very much, David.

David Sadigh: Thank you, Julia.

Thank you, Julia. Cia. Well, that concludes our normal programming as we bring the curtain down on season two.

Robin Swithinbank: We'll be back next week for a final season wrap. But in the meantime, David and my thanks to all our season two guests who've lit up the Luxury Society Podcast with their wit and wisdom, and thank you to you. Our listeners, don't forget to like, subscribe, comment, and listen back to previous episodes on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you [00:47:00] get your.

Podcasts. We'll be back with more guests in the new year. David, for now, it's been a pleasure until we meet again. 

David Sadigh: It Has been a pleasure and just as the last word, do not forget to go and listen to Fran Miller, the CEO of Rapha. She was season two, episode nine and uh, I will leave you on that note. Uh, Fran mentioned, I think AI for me is like anything, a business facilitator. We've got an incredible amount of transactional data for our customers over the course of the last 20 years.

Consolidating it all and empowering our teams and our people to utilize AI tool to mine the data. I think that's the biggest opportunity for us. That's we are going to go after first

Robin Swithinbank: Interesting. The future is yet unwritten. David, good talking to.

David Sadigh: