Margin gains: Edouard Meylan on turning Moser into an independent powerhouse

In this episode of The Luxury Society Podcast, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh explore two defining forces shaping luxury today: the resilience of independent watchmaking and the realities of AI adoption across the industry.

The episode opens with Edouard Meylan, CEO and owner of H. Moser & Cie, who reflects on leading an independent Swiss watch brand through economic uncertainty. He discusses Moser’s growth over the past decade, its focus on profitability over volume, and shares insights into innovation and investment.

In the second half, Dominic Baldwin-Weir, Strategy Director at DLG, joins Robin to discuss artificial intelligence in luxury. Drawing parallels with the industry’s slow adoption of e-commerce, he argues that AI’s biggest barriers are cultural and organisational rather than technical and explains what brands must do to turn experimentation into real value.

Tune in for:

• Why independent watchmaking may be entering a new golden era
• How H. Moser & Cie balances growth, value and creativity
• The importance of safeguarding suppliers and craftsmanship
• Why AI adoption in luxury is a leadership and culture challenge

Brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. 

Produced by Juliet Fallowfield 2026, Fallow, Field & Mason 

Transcript

Edouard Meylan: [00:00:00] I think the strengthof independent brands is that they don't do much compromise. they have a very,very strong identity. they're very opinionated. and they have this human factor that unfortunately the groups havelost.  It's not because we make a hundred million that we are healthy. I think we are healthy because we are very, careful in the way,we develop, produce, and sell our products. so we can generate margin. That's where you are healthy. I think there's a lot of brands.

larger than us, doing significantly more revenue that are not healthy. 

,  we still had a lot of issues to solve and that was very difficult because we didn't have the cash to do that. I should have been even more drastic. If you look at , some of the most successful brands in the last 20 years, AP Richard Mille It's not gold that made them successful. we have some collaborations coming this year where a lot of people will think like we working with the devil or we've been like doing certain sacrileges. 

 when you are, almost 200 years old, Swiss watch brand. That has only done mechanical watches. This is a big step Hello and welcome to the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. I'm your [00:01:00] host, Robin Swithinbank.

David Sadigh: And I'm your co-host, David Sadig.

Robin Swithinbank: David when we last recorded, which seems like, well, it seems like a lifetime ago now. It was only last week, but it felt like 2026 at that point. We're still still coming to after the festive period. I mean, that's quickly given way to a raft of eye-catching luxury industry headlines, reman group. Recorded an 11% Q3 sales spike.

The US retail giant sacks filed for bankruptcy owing hundreds of millions of dollars to luxury brands. Mr. Trump has been threatening another RT of tariffs over the Greenland issue. Montclair got a new CEO TA oil lost. Its in the fashion world, is mourning the death of the visionary Italian designer of Valentino Garni who has died, age 93.

An awful lot going on. But um, over all those things, David, the Ishma group results really stuck out to me. What did you make of those?

David Sadigh: I think it's, the, the Mann Group seems to be in, really good health. If you look at the jewelry, Maison, so obviously like, Cartier Vcl, but also, ti plus 14% at, constant rate. it shows that, it's difficult, to grow a business of the size of Cartier and, clef at double digit rates.

But, you can [00:02:00] really see that, uh.managed to, generate, superior performance as far as the jury part is concerned. The second good news is that the specialist watchmakers that, were like, quite challenged, in the few,last years. now it's the second consecutive positive quarter with two 7%, which means that, the specialist watchmakers are like, back on track in term of growth.

And the last point that I noticed that I find quite interesting is the impressive growth. In the Middle East,region, obviously Emirates and, other region plus 20%,You and I have been talking a lot about the Dubai Watch Week. We know that, the region is like, highly strategic, region and on top of that, they managed to have double digit growth in Japan, in the Americas, and even 8% in Europe.

So it's interesting to notice that back in the days it was Asia Pacific with double digit growth. And, now Asia Pacific is at to 6%. and you can see that it's below the average growth of the group. So, interesting. And, it smells good for the rest of [00:03:00] the, the year.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, signs of recovery perhaps, and that my takeaway was about the specialist watch division, which was up 7%. As you, as you just said, that figure doesn't include Cartier or Van Cleef. Um, they, of course, are thought to be very positive in their own right. Um, that would indicate the likes of Ash. Constant Town Langer and Zona have. Significantly outperformed the market, which overall we're expecting to have been down in 2025. Results are due at some point later, this week as the podcast lands. I mean, PGA won't be reporting as it's a family owned company. Um, but as I'll detail in a piece in the New York Times later this week, its chief executive at ra.

Resta has told me on the record that it was up 10% in 2025. Um, so if you put all those numbers together, that would indicate there's perhaps quite a bit of pain elsewhere, that some recording LVMH and Swatch Group are still due to report. So we'll see what they have to say in the next, next week or so as well. Anyway, sticking with watches. let's move to this week's, episode and this week's interview. This week we're gonna be interviewing, one of Switzerland's leading independent luxury watchmaker CEOs, Edon Milan of h Moser, and C. He's always been one of my favorite interviews. [00:04:00] And our conversation, which we recorded last week, lived up to our high expectations. Later in the show, I'm gonna be talking to Digital Luxury Group strategy director, Dominic. Baldwin Weir about the ghost in the machine and the challenges facing luxury businesses as they battle to convince their staff to adopt AI into their workflows. But, before we get there, here's David interview with, we hope you enjoy.

 On this week's episode of the Luxury Society Podcast, David and I are absolutely delighted to welcome Edwar Malar, chief Executive and owner of the Independent Swiss Watch, watchmaker, H Moser, and C. Moser, as it's known, is based in the town of Schaffhausen in the north of Switzerland, a stones throw from the German border. The company was founded in 1828 and initially, and its founder Hendrich Moser fame and fortune via the courts of St. Petersburg. entrepreneurial spirit continues through the Melan family, which acquired the brand in 2012. At the time, ed Edward was running a brand called Celsius 10 62, a company he founded to create high-end mobile phones that blended fine watchmaking with [00:05:00] cutting edge telecommunications technologies. 

Speaker: Then in 2013, he was appointed Moses, CEO. Since when the company has blossomed into one of the first names in high-end, independent Swiss watchmaking, according to one of Eddo Edward's recent LinkedIn posts.

Over the past 12 years, MO has increased its production tenfold and its turnover 15 fold leveraging award-winning watch design, such as the pioneer endeavor and Streamliner models. Along the way, Moser has become known for it. Playful and at times disruptive expressions of the most revered watchmaking complications, as well as a willing to experiment with state-of-the-art materials and the occasional irreverent marketing campaign

Robin Swithinbank: the company may be best known to those outside the watch industry bubble as a partner to Alpine Motorsports, and in particular for its sponsorship of the BWT Alpine F1 team when he is not focusing squarely on Moser. Edwar is also involved in other businesses associated to the Meylan family's MELB group, meaning he's a co-owner of the [00:06:00] Swiss movement maker, precision Engineering, ag, and a board member and shareholder at Agenhor. A Swiss company specializing in high-end watch movement complications in 2023. He also became a board member at Zap Electric Vehicles Group, a British company that is on a mission to electrify personal urban mobility, and he also serves as a steering committee member of Moses sister watch brand Hautlence . He has an MBA from the Wharton School in the US and a master's in engineering from EPFL in Switzerland. Ed, not a bad cv. Good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us on the Luxury Society Podcast. How are you? And, Where are you in the world today?

Edouard Meylan: I'm good. You don't need me. You, you said everything. I, uh,

Robin Swithinbank: I know there's more to come. I know there's much more to come.

Edouard Meylan: hopefully, Are you. I mean, 

Robin Swithinbank: I'm, I technically Noha, yeah. very close to Chau. it's the village next door. since I, WC is in Chau, we, we like to say we are Noha. Um.Right.

Okay. 

Edouard Meylan: so yeah, I'm in my office at at the current manufacturer.

Robin Swithinbank: Good stuff. Well, look, it's really hard for someone like me to have any [00:07:00] idea what it must be like to run a Swiss watch company in this climate. Even while most weeks I begin this pod by reminding CEOs just how turbulent the world is at the moment and asking them to prescribe solutions.

But tell us what is it like being the CEO of a luxury Swiss watchmaker these days?

Edouard Meylan: to be honest, I can't complain. I think it was my dream job. I've been doing it for years now, and, I like those periods I like, uncertainty. it's time like that where you need to think, take a step back. And usually that's where we strive, that's where we find opportunities.

Um. think it's,it's the golden years of independent watchmaking and to be agile and flexible, reactive, working with smart people, having to complete freedom to take decisions and take decisions quickly is fun, is is great. And,I think we, we built a company. We built a brand. We built a team that, that is prepared for those periods. And I must say it is stressful because it's a lot of work. But it's good times to, to do those things because it's super exciting.

David Sadigh: And being one of the few, Swiss people originally from Swiss French speaking part of Switzerland running a watch [00:08:00] brand in the German speaking part.

Edouard Meylan: Eh, it's, it's a question I had so many times in 2012. It's there's so many beautiful brands on the Swiss French part. Why? Why go Schaffhausen? To be honest, I think, I've never been to Chason. I just crossed it before I came here, and the first six months I didn't see the sunshine because we have the Rhine flowing ne next to the manufacturer and it brings a lot of, of fog. but to be honest, I think when we discovered Moser, we felt this is a little rough diamond that requires to shine again. And if we can contribute to that and make it shine,We'll take it as a mission 

Robin Swithinbank: those figures you put on LinkedIn the other day about the increase in production, are quite astonishing. What did you actually inherit in 2013 when you arrived as CEO? What sort of Nick was the company in?

Edouard Meylan: What we inherited was what's the amazing history, it's still there. A beautiful manufacturer with quite a few machines, good people. There were at that time, 75 people. we had some interesting movements that had been developed at the perpetual calendar, a relatively, I think, clear aesthetic, for me a little bit too much understated and maybe a little bit Too [00:09:00] dusty. but a lot of good ingredients. I like to say that I feel like when we arrived, we had like,you go in your kitchen or you open your fridge and you feel like, oh, I have the ingredients. I'm not sure yet what's the recipe and what's gonna get out of it, or if it's gonna even be good.

But I feel like we have all the right ingredients, and that's a bit the feeling. we had, we felt like. There's not that many brands with such an amazing and unique history that already has a,full manufacturer, from A to Z pretty much on the movement side. an historical building with a museum. a network of partners like at that time for independent brands. Nobody else had that. Plus, as I said, movements and ip,the perpetual kind of double hairspring, the modular escapement. I'm like, Hey, there's not many brands out there. Oh, they're very big. So that's probably the only one we can afford. It's a mess financially. it's,there's a lot of, issues and reliability and quality.pricing was completely wrong. Probably marketing was not clear. So the positioning was not there. But again, we had the ingredients and we felt if we can find the right recipe, it could be a success. It could be a good dish.

David Sadigh: And now if you look in, hindsight, [00:10:00] what were like the most important decision that you took during the early days that are like paying off nowadays?

Edouard Meylan: I think the first, and unfortunately the most difficult decision was to cut. so as I said, we inherited like 75 people. We went down to about 30, uh, sold machines, stopped many mo movements that unfortunately were. Amazing. But either they didn't work or they were way too expensive to produce.

So a lot of re-engineering, like really as I said, if you want to be, forward thinking, innovative, ambitious, make developments, you need a strong and steady basis. So I think the very important decision first was really like, let's go back to basics. Let's make products that are reliable and generate margin, because without that. There's no way you can be successful. So , that was the key first decision, which was painful because in that time it was difficult to sell more because we had to do with what we had. We required a lot of re-engineering and working on the same thing, knowing that they were already in the market and not selling.

So at the same time, you're like, okay, we need to get some marketing out there, but we don't have money for that. So, yeah. but I think the [00:11:00] key and most important decision was let's cut the bleeding, even if it's painful. Let's go back to something reasonable in size and focus on creating a base that is steady.

Robin Swithinbank: You also had to make some very big decisions in those early years and then enjoyed some very successful years, following that. And the company's clearly grown significantly in the time in between. We're now in, in very uncertain times, as you've already alluded to, as everybody will know, the start of this year.

What's in your intro? What's, what's keeping you awake at night at the moment?

Edouard Meylan: What's keeping me, awake at night is we have so many projects. that's the beauty of this, Of this industry. when things go relatively well, I think we are very healthy as a company, which gives us significant means towards our ambition. So for me, what keeps me, awake is that there's just so many things.

right now we are building a new manufacturer, which is a project for three years. We work with architects and what is the manufacturer of the future for Moser? How do we create like a landmark for us in the future? It should be like a temple of the brand. So there's a lot of thinking around that and financing of this and. And frankly, I think,we're gonna make one of the most beautiful and impressive,manufacturer there is, [00:12:00] and in one of the most beautiful locations directly next to the waterfalls which are the biggest in Europe. very exciting project. In parallel, we are preparing the 200 years of Moser in 2028, which is. Obviously very, you're not gonna celebrate 200 years every second day, so it has to be special. I want it to be a firework. we've been working with the team already on, on some crazy projects, so this has to be, ready,

it has to be special. so that's a lot of work. 2026 is a big year for Moser.

We have, I think four new movements that we are working on. We are launching something for motorists, if which is a new segment for us. So we need to think in terms of marketing, how do we do that? We have a couple of collaborations that are running in parallel which will be very surprising, I think, to, to the world and the watch industry.

So for me it's, it's the level of complexity that I think I, we never had. But at the same time, I think that's such a high level energy, that I mean, sometimes you have, and I, I had many bad stress where you wake up at night sweating and you're like, how do I, am I gonna sell?

Um, how am I gonna pay the salaries of the, of my stuff? Or, uh, what am I gonna tell my suppliers because I'm a hundred, [00:13:00] 120 days late in, in payment? Or, that's not the stress I want to have. I don't want that anymore. It's a much more, how should I say? Energizing good. But yeah, it keeps you awake sometimes. 'cause you're like, oh my god. So many things.

Robin Swithinbank: I just wanna pick up on the manufacturer. It's really interesting to hear that you are putting down the foundations of a new building. we spoke to Julian Tona in our last episode. They are of course, at Hublot about to open H three. Take

Edouard Meylan: Yeah.

Robin Swithinbank: April. Huge facility with a 400 meter, squared space devoted to client experience entertainment. will you be doing something similar at your manufacturer? Is the ambition to try and create a space where you can entertain or is it purely about production and finishing and so on?

Edouard Meylan: It's both. we have visitors here every day and many see a little bit of disconnect between the brand and the very industrial building we have here. we have very limited space now. In the meantime, we have a lot of people like in the buildings around, because we cannot have everybody in. For me, it's, it's both, I want state of the art, production facilities because obviously we have ambitions to grow. SoIt's gonna be about 6,000 square meters. We have 2.5 right now. So we're gonna be able to streamline and organize the production much [00:14:00] better. Like precision engineering will all, will have its own floor, like very, aligned and optimized.

the machines floor, you have the watchmakers floor, we have the innovation. Department, but also consumer exp experience. that's extremely important for us. and typically the workshops we have not been doing in the last few months with our architects is really what's the journey, for the staff, for the suppliers, for the consumers.

And we are trying to think how is it gonna work? How are we gonna make it very special and depending also the type of customers. do you want a place where you host a dinner? how do you feature? we have a beautiful museum, so I don't want it to be like a museum of artifacts from the Moser family that we have.

It's five minutes away from the manufacturer. It's in the original castle of Mr. Moser. So we have that, but today we don't. We don't show as much as we should, like the craftmanship at Moser, we show a lot like how we make hairs springs, how we make movements, how we develop them, how we produce them, but the craftmanship, the finishing, the enamel of the dials,theon certain part of the movements.

So I want to highlight way better. also over the years done some pretty cool movies. low [00:15:00] budget sometimes, but I think having a small auditorium where, which is integrated.would be very nice. And at the same time, it should reflect what is Moser, , what does this brand stand for?

What are the codes of Moser? and I don't want it to be a boutique, so you need to think differently from now. We have developed a co a concept for boutiques a few years ago, and I don't want to just bring that in there. It should be completely. And it should be timeless because obviously for me it's a, I know it should outlive me.

I hope so. And and in a way it's a legacy that we're preparing for whoever is gonna be take over this brand in the future. Hopefully our kids, but maybe somebody else.

David Sadigh: you mentioned, what is Moser and what does it stand for? for our listeners who might not be that familiar, how would you describe, Moser?

Edouard Meylan: It's a very good question. I think we'd love to say that, in a way we are, perceived as like this, independent family owned brand. So there's the very strong independence, spirit in there. At the same time, we, people see us as the Mavericks of the Swiss watch industry in the way we think, in the way we work, the way we create trying things, pushing boundaries, exploring new territories.

 and you will see it in the near [00:16:00] future. We're trying to bring more and more innovation. this is something that. We touched a little bit in the recent years, but I think we can, bring way more. but innovation different from what other brands would do. I think for me, that's also something important.

You, you've seen what we've done a few years ago, for example, with the genesis, when we started looking at what is in the blockchain, and Web3 for our. We're trying. We see some things will sticker on the wall, something will disappear. we created a connected tool for, the mechanics of Appian Formula One team. So not a connected watch, but a really, a tool that they use to, to communicate and synchronize, timing in a very, timely sensitive environment where communication is so important when you are, almost 200 years old, Swiss watch brand. That has only done mechanical watches. This is a big step and there's other kind of things that, I think. Makes this so interesting. And for me, that's the way I'm looking at innovation, not just creating the lightest, the slimmest, the most precise, but thinking what, what could be watchmaking in the 21st century? Or what can watchmaking bring in a different industry? Typically in a, we working [00:17:00] with Alpine non creating instruments to put inside,their new, electric, cars and concept cars.

Robin Swithinbank: Fun projects.

Historically, people would put a clock. Well, I said, I don't wanna clock, I want other things. So it's gonna be coming in the next few months. Yes. No. Yeah. I, you've hinted to me once or twice that watches and Wonders in April is gonna be a significant landmark for you. And actually, one of the reasons that we were talking about. Watches and wonders you and I a few months ago, uh, was because we were looking at how you are dealing with the issue of gold.

You as a high-end watchmaker use, or gold or at least historically, have used a lot of gold. As we know the price of gold has just gone through the roof over the past 24 months. Even in the course of the last week or so, it's gone through $4,800 an ounce. how is that impacting you as a brand and what solutions are you looking to?

Edouard Meylan: we don't have a lot of consumer, in insights and price elasticity is not something that we know precisely. So at the moment I'm pretty cautious. I think we've been very successful with. Other materials still has been very strong for us, but we exploring new materials at the moment.

to be honest, I, I took the decision to reduce a little bit, the quantities on, on, on gold. as we don't know where it's going, everybody says it's gonna continue to go higher and, people will [00:18:00] adapt to those new pricing. I am not sure about that. I think, I, we have enough ideas for crazy interesting products that

don't have to be in gold.

So we'll continue and push that and do the gold for things which have to be gold. and there we try to be as, efficient as possible.

David Sadigh: there has been some talk in the industry, about technical solution to the gold problem and some new technologies such as, casting or using, new materials such as,GCO regions or lower all or light gold, which uses, lamina technical lamination to reduce the weight of gold by about like 40%.

are you entertaining any of these, solutions?

Edouard Meylan: Well, I think I, I mentioned that to, to Robin, and I think you, you put it in your article. I had some comments about it from, from people in the industry. Yeah. We exploring those things, obviously. we just need be careful not to. dilute the value and trick the consumers.

David Sadigh: So would that be some kind of your own magic gold?

Edouard Meylan: We're not doing

anything like that. No. I'd rather go into more technical materials. I think the way I see the market right now, if you look at , some of the most successful brands now in the last 20 years, AP Richard Mille It's not gold that made [00:19:00] them successful.

I it's other things. There's some brands that need gold because that's the core of their very traditional, almost old fashioned way of making watchmaking. I don't think where we position ourself at Moser, we absolutely need, to have so much gold. We can have some for certain offerings, but not too much. That's not where our growth is.

David Sadigh: I'm just interested to respond on that. You mentioned like that's not gold that made like some of those like successful brands you mentioned od and so in your opinion, what made them successful specifically?

Edouard Meylan: Innovation.

I think they are the powerhouse of innovation. 1.0. I want Moser to be the powerhouse of innovation. Two point.

David Sadigh: innovation across the board, right.

Edouard Meylan: Yeah. And exploring, pushing. as I said before, I think we, we're working on what we call the Moser Innovation Lab. That is a team dedicated to thinking of outside our industry and also thinking what is watchmaking, in 2,100. And that's for me, again, I don't wanna make a new lighter, more accurate chronograph. I wanna think the different way of, of the chronograph or see what our industry can bring to. Some of the most [00:20:00] advanced, companies in the world on the tech side or in the car industry and stuff like that.

That's for me, the innovation, which it's, maybe it's just because it's so much fun for me to work with those kind of people. the journey is so interesting, but at the same time, also what comes out of it is, is usually surprising and different. And, to be honest, what people like at, when they are in the fan base of Moser is the fact that we surprise them. Over and over again, and they like, I wouldn't have expected it. Typically, if we do a collaboration, I want to be a collaboration. they think, oh my God, I thought you would go with X or Y and this is completely off field. Cool. That's what I want. and I mentioned it a lot these days, but one of the best compliment, and for me that's really the moment I realized we built what I believe is a real brand is the day where one of my customer came to me and said, this network, I really didn't like this product that you just launched, but I love the fact that you did it. I think that's, that really shows that they understand the philosophy, even though you don't have to love everything we do.

Robin Swithinbank: Do you think the job of convincing consumers that non precious materials can be luxury has already been done? Are we past that point, or if you [00:21:00] were to introduce a new material,that was very much outside the original definitions of what makes a luxury material that you would have to reeducate your consumers reeducate luxury watch buyers to a point where they recognize that some bizarre expression of carbon can be considered to be luxurious.

Edouard Meylan: To be honest, I think some others have done the job. AP they've done the job with steel,I mean, with spastic. So it's a little bit queary what I'm saying, butthis is facts. So if today, whatever you bring, I think was the right. Marketing and the right characteristics, explained behind it can be perceived as innovative and be valued. Uniqueness is valued anyway.

David Sadigh: just before we move forward about

the market and the international, dimension. you spoke about the positioning of the brand. Can you speak a bit about the clients? what makes the Moser client different from the other brands client, and how does that evolved, in the last, let's say five years?

Edouard Meylan: we have a wide range of customers from the hardcore collector that pretty much buys everything that we have and the like real fans. Some even put tattoos on the, on their [00:22:00] skins about the, our brands. So we have some really hardcore fans and it's very strong community that also. Gets together. I think we have strong connection with those people. I think that a common characteristic is really like this kind of self-confidence. you don't need to prove anything to anybody else. You buy a Moser because you un you understand and value it. and not everybody has to know.

And then, we are entrepreneurs at,as a family. And I think. A lot of our customers have this entrepreneurial spirit, and that's very important to us wherever they are around the world. And I think that's why we also have a lot of people that became friends through meeting each other because they had a Moser and they were at an event, or they got to know each other and they felt they had this similarities. But we also have like young collectors that have been saving and we talk to a, probably a younger audience than most. Through our tone of voice. And I think that helps, us a lot in the recent years by capturing this new generation of watch, lovers.

Collectors and and yeah, they're very masculine for now, but that might change in the near future,

Robin Swithinbank: Interesting. 

David Sadigh: in average, would you say?

Edouard Meylan: I would say, uh, in their, low forties

Robin Swithinbank: A very good age 

Edouard Meylan: it's perfect.[00:23:00] even the high forties networks. but for many years we did watches. and we continue to make watches. we want to wear. I just hope as we get older, younger people will also want to wear, those watches.

But when I started, I think the average age was probably around 65.

David Sadigh: we've seen, looking at, a bit at our own data about the watch market and so on that,Moosa is quite, in demand, in the US and that, apparently the US is a important market. does the uncertainty in the US mean you are turning your attention to other markets? and if so, where are you looking?

Edouard Meylan: Well, US grew a lot last year. I think we sellout was up, 55% in, in 2026. Despite this uncertainty, we are very strong there. I think we have a great team, Claudio and the team and, and Brett and,they're doing an extremely good job there. we, I think the activation with Alpine, with, uh, S one Barclays in NFL. the kind of events we did is really brought the community together and the visibility has grown a lot, so we're doing very well and we continue to invest. It's one of the top four most strategic market for us. When we look at, business development. there's quite a few markets that are important to us.

Mexico has been growing [00:24:00] a lot, recently. Also, I think there's been,a little bit of surplus from the US going, back to Mexico. People that would've bought probably in Miami now is the tariffs doesn't make much of a difference, so they buy more. And that's, we are over 200% growth

in, in Mexico last year.

And we invest, we have great partners as well. so I see a lot of potential there. India has been very strong for us. Um.UK is something where we are not good enough. Where I want to put more efforts. my objective is to open the next Mosel land, which is basically our office lounge where we can host the community. We have one in New York, we have one in, in Hong Kong, also sort in China. I think that's something we need in the uk. It's definitely a top four as well, a strategic market together with, Korea and China. China, we have, we are opening our third boutique. We're gonna officially make the. Official announcement in the next few months in Chendu after Beijing and Shanghai, and Korea.

We opened the boutique in Seattle, last year and we're exploring a second boutique in Korea. So uk, Korea, China, are, are top strategic with the us and then there's those others like India, like Mexico, where we feel like we can grow volume [00:25:00] there.

Robin Swithinbank: You mentioned the dreaded T word there. Tariffs of course, have played such a big part in the narrative over the past 12 months. how in the world do you as a CEO map out your sales and distribution plans when the cost of exporting your products to your number one market keeps changing, or at least is so very unpredictable?

I.

Edouard Meylan: That's good question. I mean, we did, the budget before everything happened, so it's difficult after to reshuffle we tried to be opportunistic, so whenever the tariffs we announced, we shipped everything, what we had,in transit towards Hong Kong over there to build a little bit of inventory. In parallel, we try to think, when do we think this is gonna change? is it gonna stay like this? And if it stays, what solutions are there to reduce the impact of those tariffs? working on currency variations is very important. Like how do, we align pricing around the globe, which is not always easy because as you said, it's changing because currencies fluctuate.

But on top of that, tariffs might fluctuate. So a lot of discussions ongoing. Have the chance to work with, with my brother who's based in Dubai and manages our subsidiaries. So it's the market intelligence, in the team together with Nicholas, our head international sales. So we have this kind of small [00:26:00] committee where we,the three of us discuss, constantly about pricing, about, allocations, trying to be as pragmatic and reactive, as possible.

Robin Swithinbank: The temptation must be to put prices up and to try and en encourage the consumer, the retailer, the distribution, whoever's in between you and the end consumer to absorb the impact. have you done that or are you going to be doing that?

Edouard Meylan: we did, we increased in June by 8%. and then we increased another 5% in, was it September, October, November? Can't remember. Uh, so about certain certain percent,

Robin Swithinbank: comes a 

Edouard Meylan: that's a,

Robin Swithinbank: where um, 

Edouard Meylan: very difficult.

very difficult. It is very difficult. I think it's easier in a higher price range. but price elasticity is something our size, it's very difficult to get.

so our decision was really to be extremely,proactive. We talked to our partners in the market and we said, let's split the hit between you, us, and the consumer. so we absorb part of the tariffs, but working on smart solutions to reduce the impact then, then reduce a little bit the margin of our partners,and increase the price for the consumer. o overall, yeah, everybody pays a little bit.

David Sadigh: [00:27:00] we have not all the answer on the price elasticity for your brand, but because we scan a lot, of, information, uh, including secondary market and so on, I just had a look, ahead of the call and I was mentioning it to Robin that, your brand is basically keeping quite a decent secondary market value, based on what I've seen.

you are at minus 16, and. Taking into account the fact that the prices have been increasing over the last few years. It probably means that some of those people, if you compare it at the current price, they probably like, purchase it at a lower price and you are ahead long, uh, et et cetera. Who are brands that are like,losing, more value?

A bit behind, some of the doune, uh, obviously Patek and so on. how do you explain that? How do you explain that? the brand is keeping some, decent value.

Edouard Meylan: I think we, we have a mixed strategy. We have some products that we feel like needs to be in the market, and pretty much always there. And then there are some products where, because sometimes they're a little bit more complex to, to produce typically a, an enamel dial, certain skeletons, et cetera.

The streamline of bracelet, et [00:28:00] cetera, are more difficult to get. So there's a mix of products. Some might lose, yeah, 20%, 25%, and some might gain, a little bit as well. So it's, to be honest, I. When people say it could be better. Yes, it could always be better. Yes, we could be like a debit.

De Bethune or a Journe. Frankly, if I make 800 watches next year, our prices will go up a lot. But that's not our strategy. And my, when I tell people my, I'm not there to create a brand ,that you can invest in to make money. for me, my responsibility, the way I look at it is should,as, as much as possible keep value. that's my objective. If you buy something and you want to resell it in five years, because that's your right, that's your product, you need liquidity. Whatever happens in your life, you sell it. You don't lose money or not too much. That's my responsibility. It's not that you, you buy it to resell it.

That's not what I want. So we try to find a, the right balance, between the product mix, between the quantities, and we want to grow. We are building a brand. We want this brand to be healthy, we need to continue to grow, expand. and for that, while we monitor secondary market pricing, it's not the main KPI in where we want to go and that shouldn't influence.

But at the same time, if we [00:29:00] see something going. down, then we might stop it. We have so many ideas we can relaunch it. So usually we have a lot of products that have about a two year cycle, except certain iconic products that I want to them to stay like a small second and ML blue dial or a rose gold, vanta black dial. I think those kind of things, I think there's not much I can improve in terms of design. I think those watches for me are at the moment the perfection of what we can do. and I don't wanna stop them. So we control how many we make. But as for the rest, if we feel like, ah, this, it had a good time.

it's growing, it's slowly coming down, then we stop.

David Sadigh: you know, I firmly believe that most of the, high-end Swiss watch brand will have to implement a CPO certified pre-owned program. Years to come. but it doesn't seem that you are there yet. So is it part of the plan to, at some point,launch a CPO program for Moser?

Edouard Meylan: So we don't do a CPO where we buy back and resell. I don't believe that we should do that. I think there are enough. Pure players. we work closely with 1916, for example,

and service their watches and give them as much insights [00:30:00] as possible. We don't label them as certified, but we could, and we should probably.

it's just there's so many things in parallel. So for me it's more about like protecting the value of our products by offering, servicing to, to our partners and they're the best. They know the price, they have much more,a global vision of it. It's difficult for me to buy back a watch that I sold you at a hundred and buy back at 80 because we feel it's,it requires servicing or buy a and you want 120 because you think it's, there's, that's the market price that you see on Chrono 24. That's not my job. And I think some people should do that, and this shouldn't be the brands, but again, I think some other brands think differently and I think they, they should go for it. For me, I have enough, to do with primary market and I would support the secondary market with the certification

and support, but not proactively buying back and reselling.

Robin Swithinbank: Well, you've obviously had a very good top of 13 years. you've taken, as you described, a dusty watch brand and turned it into something with significant brand equity and a strong profile

Edouard Meylan: Thank you.

Robin Swithinbank: in some very interesting sectors. to Morgan Stanley, your annual revenues are around a hundred million Swiss francs, so you are in good health. Um, have you ever been [00:31:00] tempted to sell? 

Edouard Meylan: I just wanna clarify one thing. It's not because we make a hundred million that we are healthy. I think we make, we are healthy because we are very, careful in the way,we develop, produce, and sell our products. so we can generate margin. That's where you are healthy. I think there's a lot of brands.

larger than us, doing significantly more revenue that are not healthy.

And I think that's key. I think we had the chance to grow. It's more difficult to downsize. It's much easier to grow because you always on the li on the limit. So extremely efficient and therefore have. relatively good margin. the business has also changed a lot, since we can now sell online and direct to consumer generating also better margin. Right. my father worked for AP many years and he's still sitting at the Board of Moser and every time I show him numbers, he is. He is impressed. He said they never achieved that at AP at that time, probably today.

Now, because also they have integrated, et cetera. they have a different margin. But when he retired, even though they were doing 700 million or even more, they, they were not achieving the profitability we have. So that's the key for me. and yeah, I think that's where we need to focus on and because we are profitable.

there's no reason to sell. I think, on [00:32:00] the contrary, there's a lot of people would love to buy us, but, uh. of offers over time, I'm sure.

Yes. But at the same time, I think we are beginning of an interesting cycle and I want to be part of this cycle and I think building this new manufacturer and is a fun part.

I dunno if I'm growing older and starting to get some nostalgia and feel like you need to create a legacy, I don't know. But right now I'm super excited with those kind of projects and I cannot, project myself into selling this company. Now, if the next generation, my, my kids, my brother, kids are not interested in joining our industry, then maybe the question will come.

But at the moment, there's no discussion about it. And, Happy to know, that people are interested in, acquiring our brand. But no, we're not for sale

David Sadigh: how 

Robin and I have been talking, several times in the podcast about the fact that private owned companies are Overperforming,group owned companies. And I think if you look at the ology segment, that's, even more true with like many brands. I want quote them all, but, from the F page one to the MB NF to Moser, et cetera, many of those brands have, Encounter like a significant success. How do you explain that? How do you explain the fact that [00:33:00] especially in this otology segment,we can see private owned companies really beating,the numbers of those major luxury conglomerates.

Edouard Meylan: I don't know. I think in a way the freedom, the of creativity of communication is very important. The fact that people can connect to people, this is the heart of luxury. it's a lot, it's a people business and it's an emotion business. The problem I think with conglomerates is decentralized aspect.

I think a lot of, and when I talk to people, working for the major groups, they, even at the brand level, if you're CEO of a major brand in a major group, and you cannot. Take alone decisions about product design, about, orientations. You need to go through centralized, design decision.

Making first it slows down. Second, it standardized a lot of things and dilutes the message. I think the strengthof brands, independent brands is that they don't do much compromise. they have a very strong identity. They're very, they're very opinionated. and they have this human factor that unfortunately the groups havelost. And today, that's what people are looking for. when you collect first you want a few iconic products from the major brands, and usually [00:34:00] they're independent. And then you think you know what's special, what's different, what can I relate to? And usually this emotion is con is, conveyed by the people.

And while we might not have an iconic designer like Ager, Gerald Gena at Moser, we have a family, we have my brother, we have my team. everybody talks about the Moser family. And that goes a long way and beyond everything you can do in marketing and having this connection, this relationship, and saying, I spent 35,000 for this perpetual moon. I know the guys and I actually went to the manufacturer and saw the lady who put it together. Andthis is probably more than the value of the product for a lot of our customers. So

unfortunately the groups with their size and the centralization,they killed the.

Robin Swithinbank: Yes. Being faceless luxury does seem to be costing some of the big brands who are part of, these big groups. this is already becoming a theme of this season, of the podcast, that the real, the tangible, the human has, ever-growing value. so it's very interesting to hear you say much the same, as one of the reasons for your company's success. before we, move on and before we, before we let you go, Eduard, I did just wanna talk to you about Formula One briefly.you've moved into [00:35:00] Formula One, which is a space that,it's very heavily populated by watch brands these days as an official timekeeper in Tag, HOA and a number of other brands, have built a lot of their reputation, around the sport.

You've gone in with, the Alpine F1 team. what has the partnership done for you, given that the grid is so packed with watch brands, what standout have you been able to achieve?

Edouard Meylan: I think so packed is a big world, a word. I think there's five brands out there. There's Hamill, IWC,there used to be gp. 

So,this is good company. this is the best sport, the most global sport, highly entertaining, huge following, What did it bring to us? I think number one was credibility.

As we, as you said before, we were this tiny brand in, in, on the other side of Switzerland where people, you know,were laughing a little bit at our cheese watch many years ago.

And, my brother and I were the sons off and slowly you grow, you start to make a statement. The brand is coming there and. Slowly saying, Hey,we can be in Formula One and we are maybe not with the best team, but we entertained 500 people that we've been to ri we show you behind the scenes we develop products with and for [00:36:00] lp. That brought a lot of credibility and I think that you can't underestimate that brand awareness. Of course. Because there's visibility and the last but not least is, is experience bringing people to the race. With the accesses we have, which we would probably never have if we were with McLaren of Ferrari being, sponsor number X, Y, z At Alpine, we get so much access that our consumer,they might have been invited by many other brands.

They come with us. They're like, oh my God, I never had such an experience by the end of the weekend. You're like this, they're the best friends. and to be honest, as much as for them, as for us,it's crazy to have those kind of relationship 

Robin Swithinbank: I can see all that. I'm playing devil's advocate. there's something about the partnership, going into Formula One and doing something quite corporate like that. There's something quite conventional about it. And you mentioned the Cheese Watch just now, 10 years ago, when you were building the brand, there was something really very.

Disruptive and rebellious and, you got burned once or twice when you were perhaps a little bit too experimental with your communications. is that just a sign of maturation that you're moving into the world of Formula One and that sort of slightly more conventional corporate partnership?

Or are you looking to attain some of that quirk, some of that [00:37:00] unexpected nature that makes you different from everybody else?

Edouard Meylan: I think you're right. I think there's definitely some maturity. We were, I like to say we were a teenage brand that was emancipating. today we are much more mature, I believe. I hope. But at the same time, we look at those partnerships hopefully differently from the others when we activated it.

That's why I said like we took the risk of creating a, we developed from zero, a connected watch to support the mechanics. We developing instruments, crazy instruments, hybrid instruments to put inside cars. That's where I look at those collaborations that were. There's a lot we can learn from a different industry and trying to see how we, we can influence them as much as they're influencing us.

So for me, when I look at a partnership like this, yes, it's probably main mainstream marketing if you can afford it. But at the same time, for me, it's not putting a logo on a car and a logo on my watch. That's not what I want to do. And I told, I been day one when we started discussing, I said, if it's what you're looking for, then go and get another brand. But I think they are a bit, the underdogs. They're a little bit like, like us, and that's why we had a good match. But, but yeah, I said many years,stop marketing BS. And I burnt my fingers on that. and for some people that might be seen [00:38:00] as marketing bullshit. For me it's different because, I love the process.

I love what I learned working with those people. And again, we have some collaborations coming this year where a lot of people will think like we working with the devil or we've been like doing certain sacrileges But don't forget the process and what will come out of it,

David Sadigh: Ed Edward, what have you learned as a leader, and as a CEO, as a business owner, in that time that you wish you would have known when you started?

Edouard Meylan: huh? I You know what I mentioned in the beginning, I said how much we cut to, to start with. we reduced. I didn't do that enough. I think we should have gone even further. I think it was very painful, 2013, 2014, when we very quickly run out of c of cash because despite, lay laying off 40 people, we still had to pay a lot of things.

We still had a lot of issues to solve and that was very difficult because we didn't have the cash to do that. I should have been even more drastic. And take that unfortunately, very difficult decision because, what I learned is it's easier to start from very small and grow as you need it, rather than being oversized and not taking the decision to downsize.

[00:39:00] And I won't mention brands, but I see some brands that are similar in size to us today, but way overweight. And people think they're afraid to taking the tough decision. They're gonna kill themselves if they don't do it.

So that's definitely a key learning. And on the other side is, what I call my circle of trust is really finding the people. In the beginning I was somebody who was really like, just trust myself and don't listen to anyone. I think you need to get the people around you that can tell you no. or say listen Edward, this is BS.and can tell you that in your face. And, that took me a little bit of time to, to have those people, but it's very important.

Robin Swithinbank: Otherwise, you might burn your fingers. And I did a couple of times and it's less likely now, even though we continue to push a little bit the boundaries because I have people that I can trust I can go to, and I know that even if I don't go to them, they'll come to me Well, let me ask you a last question. David and I have determined we need to find the positives on this podcast. And so we're asking our guests for reasons to be cheerful. We know they're, they're evenamidst the gloom of tariffs and, rising prices and gold prices and all the rest of it. what's on the horizon that's giving you room for optimism in 2026?

Edouard Meylan: I think [00:40:00] 2026 is gonna be an amazing year for Moser. we have a, we grew last year, almost 10%. and we are gonna grow this year. also, we are very ambitious. We are launching a lot of things. Super exciting. I think it's gonna surprise a lot of people. as I said, we opening new segments, bringing new materials for new movements to collaboration, to both of them being. I seem pretty disruptive. Um,I'm super energized for this year. we are hiring a lot of people right now. We are really bullish. as I said, for me, I, yes, there's a lot of UNC uncertainty, but the last. A hundred years of this industry have been full of uncertainty. You had so many crisis and stuff like that. No, I think for us we are lucky to be small. we are lucky to have so many markets we have not in, we could open if we wanted. There's so many retailers that would love to have our brand. So I'm really not concerned. I'm more concerned as an industry that we take the right decisions, that we support our suppliers because if they disappear and we lose craftsmanship and knowledge, that's my concern. That's where the big brands need to step in and support them and not disappear the day that their orders are down. [00:41:00] And I think some of the big, independent, they've been there like a Rolex or even ap, were there when COVID hit many of the big groups, they disappeared. They need to protect their margin and I think that's not fair to our ecosystem.

Robin Swithinbank: An interesting challenge to the market to finish with. Thank you, Edo. We must, we must call it a day and leave it there. It really has been wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time and your insights and coming on the Luxury Society Podcast.

Edouard Meylan: My pleasure. Thank you very much. Great questions. 

Robin Swithinbank: David, great conversation with Edwar, uh, as ever he

is, uh, he is a really interesting guy, lots to say he's done a fantastic job with, uh, with Moser. But, uh, what stuck out, uh, for you from that conversation?

David Sadigh: plenty of things. The fact that, he, he managed, uh, to build a team, and, um, not just a team of people around him, but, apparently a team of indeed collectors, passionate people, who really love the brand. I think with strong differentiating factors, which is obviously quite important. I like what you mentioned about the profitability aspect and the fact that the turnover is not just the only element, and I think being profitable and it seems that the company is [00:42:00] not only profitable.

But,from an operating cashflow, probably also quite positive to generate this amount, or this estimated type of profitability. I think this is the best way of,getting the freedom you need to, innovate to,launch new product to invest in movements to, to be able to develop. So I think what I like about it, it's this, it seems that is engineering background, you know, A a wha MBA.

And understanding of the watch market allowed him to build a company that seems to be extremely healthy. When we look at the secondary market figures, when we look at the sellout average, when we look at the distribution with a very strong performance in the US market, I understand that they might be buyers for a company like er, because I think there are not many independent company in this category at this size.

That have been, growing and obviously everyone talks about Char Mill and about a couple of other independent who grew significantly. We're not talking about the same level, not the same size. but I think that, [00:43:00] apart from in the, in the range of those company, who went, let's say quite, quite, fast to, achieve like around 100 million revenue.

This is a very interesting example. What did you think?

Robin Swithinbank: Edwar is a really interesting character. I've known him quite a long time now, and I've had the good fortune to interview him at various junctures over the past 10 or 12 years. He has, that unusual combination of being, yes, on the one hand, CEO. He's, he's very organized. He's a good manager. As he explained, he had to make some very tough decisions at the outset and significantly reduce the company's overhead. But then has built that back up over, over time. He told us just after we stopped recording that they're now at what, 120, 130 employees and increasing by 10 or 15 this year. So, he has structured the company well and it looks as if it's a very well managed company. He's good at that. But he also has product sensitivity.

I think he has brand sensitivity and he has understood what today's customer, today's, high net worth individual is looking for in a luxury product, in the storytelling around it, in [00:44:00] the perception of the product, and to an extent by extension, the perception of the value in the product. We've talked a lot on this podcast about how the industry needs a value reset. That doesn't of course mean that everybody needs to make their watches cheaper. It means that, the brands need to do a better job of communicating to the consumer what the value is in the products. And I think Edwar and, and Moser have done a really good job of that. Their customer recognizes the value, and that's one of the reasons why the retention, that is so high. Um, that's why the secondary market values have, have stayed at the level that they're at and can compete with those brands who we all recognize as being ultra successful. So I think he's done a terrific job. And I can see why he wants to hold onto it because I suspect that, between them, the Meylan family and that leadership team are going to increase the value of the company. And if they do decide to sell fund day 5, 10, 20 years down the line, it'll be worth a lot more than it is now and they're clearly enjoying building and doing good job.

David Sadigh: absolutely. And, this segment of, high-end watchmaking or ology, we know that it's the segment that is growing the fastest. I [00:45:00] think it was really clear on the fact that he's also going after the. Women segment, and obviously we know the women segment is within the ology, also one of the fastest growing, segments.

So, yeah, I can see the upside and I can see the, potential. I'm pretty sure we are going to, see this brand becoming like, probably even bigger and stronger in the years to come.

Robin Swithinbank: Yes. Well, and now they've been on the Luxury Society Podcast. I'd say that's almost inevitable. David. Good talking to you. We.

 All right, change of scene now and a Luxury Society Podcast debut for Dominic Baldwin-Weir, strategy director at Digital Luxury Group. Dominic, welcome onto to the podcast. Great to have you with us. How are you?

Dominic Wier: I'm great Robin, and thank you very much for having me on the podcast.

Robin Swithinbank: great pleasure. you've not been long at DLG, have you Tell us, when did you sign on and what's your brief reef?

Dominic Wier: 1st of September, 2025. And really what I'm doing is building up a consulting practice around digital in the luxury industry, and also transformation, but it's, it's really broad, very [00:46:00] broad, scope at this stage.

Robin Swithinbank: And a really interesting time to, to join the business as, the world starts talking more and more about artificial intelligence and tries to get used to the idea that it's both a reality and, uh, gonna shape our future. Now, you recently posted a piece on LinkedIn entitled The Ghost in the Machine.

Why AI's Biggest Challenge in Luxury is organizational, not technical. So what's, what's the premise here?

Dominic Wier: Well, I, I think there are some very significant parallels to the early adoption of, internet and e-commerce in the two thousands.at that time the watch industry was incredibly focused and solely focused on wholesale distribution. and the shift in customer demand and needs essentially forced the luxury industry to address their distribution challenge and shift into, a direct to consumer environment.

The reality is that that was essentially an existential crisis because a business that was solely focused on wholesale now had to switch gears. Completely changed the way that it operates and start [00:47:00] building capabilities within the organization. Infrastructure skills for direct to consumer marketing.

historically it had been just through the authorized retailer network. Now they were faced with the people who were wearing the watches and directly forced into that engage. Essentially what you have now is a very similar situation, except it's, it's AI and the timeline is far more compressed.

so really, that's the, the, the background.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, it's an interesting comparison and I, I was interested to see you draw the comparison to e-commerce in the early two thousands when you and I both have a little bit of gray in your case and quite a lot of grain, in my case, in our beard. So we're both old enough to remember when those popups used to appear on brand websites imploring us not to buy their products online. how similar is this situation really, because we're not talking about.just access to goods or distribution or even transaction security or even fakes. So it feels much more profound than that, or at least that's the way it's been painted to us who are not technical. Those of us who are Luddites, the reactionaries of the world.

Dominic Wier: Yeah, I think, you can look at this from one perspective, [00:48:00] and that is that. A lot of brands realize that AI is an important part of the future of their business. in terms of optimization, in terms of customer experience, there's a big hype at the moment around,hyper personalization.

but essentially that forces the organization to work in a much more structured way. And what you have at the moment is organizations, which were built on pillars marketing. Finance it, e-commerce, retail, and those pillars or silos don't necessarily work transversely in a way that is beneficial for the customer.

I, I call it the Bermuda Triangle. you know, marketing it, e-commerce and the customer's kind of lost somewhere in the middle. So what I believe is that the organization needs to fundamentally change that you have to build, dedicated teams who are focused on owning. a major part of the customer experience journey, and are tasked with the KPIs [00:49:00] and responsibility to make those work.

at the moment you have organizations where marketing is measured on one KPI e-commerce on another, retail on another, but nobody owns that end-to-end customer experience. So that's, really what needs to happen. And without that transformation, that change, you're gonna find that businesses are not really able to leverage the data insights that result in an improvement in overall customer experience and engagement.

Robin Swithinbank: One of the things you note in the piece is that this organizational change is taking a lot longer than a lot of businesses might hope because their employees are reluctant that they struggle to embrace artificial intelligence. that might be because of all the bad press that it gets. should we be at all surprised that businesses are having. Such trouble that and are getting stuck in what, you referred to as pilot purgatory. Unable to go beyond the pilot scheme and into, using AI as a, as a day-to-day tool.

Dominic Wier: Yeah, I think a large part of it is, is somewhat political and, and structural. [00:50:00] essentially sharing data between teams is, is almost a threat to that team. So, you've gotta get over those structural hurdles. Yes, I think. End users, if you wanna call 'em that, but employees are a little bit more skeptical and concerned that AI may take over their, their role, their job.

That's a, a genuine concern. But the reality is that in fact the, you should see ai, as a force multiplier, and used in the right way to empower the organization. It's only gonna result in an improvement in, again, customer experience.

Robin Swithinbank: You used the term force multiplier, which to me sounds like jargon. And it is jargon, let's face it. And I, I, I wonder if that's. Part of the issue for the average employee that it's, there's, there's a wall up, there's a, a language wall, there's a technical wall that creates this sense of nervousness, this inhibition. There's a fear of threshold almost with artificial intelligence as there so often is with luxury brands. When people come to the front door of their physical store, does the language around artificial [00:51:00] intelligence and the way it's, absorbed into a business needs to change so that people recognize that it might be complimentary, for example, rather than a replacement.

Dominic Wier: Yeah, I mean the, the technology is the technology and yeah, there is an element of, jargon that creates a little bit of fear and. I think it's, it's up to both the organization and the individual to get their head around what this means for them and their business. I've spoken to a lot of, a lot of companies, a lot of executives, and asked them, do you have, an academically rigorous training program within your organization that educates the teams who are gonna use this technology, how to use it and optimize it?

80% of them said no. We we've got copilot and there've been a few posts on the intranet that explain what it does and how it works. But there aren't really any in-depth training programs that are gonna help people. To better understand and utilize the technology. And I, I believe that that's a major barrier to entry.

'cause as you rightly point out, people are a little bit scared. What is it [00:52:00] gonna churn out? Are there ethical concerns about the use of the content that it publishes and so on? which creates friction and lack of adoption. So I think from an organizational perspective, it's important to make sure that your executives are up to speed.

Understand it, know how to use it, that you've implemented proper guardrails, ethical standards, et cetera. But also the individual. It's, you can go to any of the LLMs and say, put together a very simple six week course on how to use and optimize, the chat system. and, and you can teach yourself.

So I think there are, two parties here that need to work together.

Robin Swithinbank: Yes, there's, there's an argument isn't there, that the sort of the self-motivated, those who are naturally inclined to, adopt artificial intelligence into their lives are going to become a sort of super elite, and leave the rest behind. it's interesting you say a lot of the responsibility falls on individuals. Are we gonna end up with a sort of a super class of employee who have become AI literate and leave the rest behind?

Dominic Wier: I think those people who are naturally, Inquisitive, and put [00:53:00] themselves about will have an advantage over those who don't. if you look at the job market today, having a fundamental knowledge and expertise in, in AI, I think gives you a bit of an advantage,as apart from the fact that it can make you more productive because you can use the technology to improve the output and quality of your work.

And speed things up. I, I, I often speak to people and ask 'em, well, how are you using ai? And a lot of them say, yeah, I just tell it. I want to brief or I need an image. and it churns out a document. Most of it is AI slop, as they call it. but if you use it in the right way, it can, it can be a, a major advantage.

So, for example, when I get a request from, David, our CEO, and he says, Dominic, I need a proposal for this. I don't sit down and, essentially. Get the AI to do the work. I sit down, I put together my thoughts, my ideas, and I feed it to the AI and say, challenge this. How, where are the weaknesses?

What would you do to improve this and make the [00:54:00] argument stronger, and then integrate that into my overall proposal. So essentially it just, you are using the knowledge, the expansive knowledge in the LLM ultimately to improve the work output.

Robin Swithinbank: Can brands afford to leave individuals to train themselves to in invest their time in becoming AI literate? Or is it incumbent on the brands to introduce those training programs, those educational tools that you've just described?

Dominic Wier: I think it's advantageous and I think it's, it's important that, that the brands do that. and also that they educate the users about the guardrails that are put in place, and that they actively make sure that, they're using the LLMs in a way that is compliant with their business. That, they're not sharing information.

Necessarily they wouldn't want, being put into an LLM, like personally customer data and so on. So I think it's vital that there is a, a, a, a training program, and expertise knowledge transfer, but also that it's encapsulated in rules and [00:55:00] regulations that safeguard the business.

Robin Swithinbank: So you are a, you're a CEO, I'm making you CEO for the day of a of a luxury business. What's ai priority number one.

Dominic Wier: I mean the, the first thing is, stop the discussion about, what AI should we use? Start asking the question, what decisions are we slow to make? What decisions are we slow to make that directly negatively impact the overall customer experience? so that's the first point. The second thing is, is to start to map out the critical customer experience moments.

Say for example, if there's a VIP showing signs of disengagement,where where is the decision making process that is resulting in that? How do we make sure that that is resolved? Identify who decides who acts. How long it takes, and then use AI to help solve those very specific customer engagement problems.

The other thing is, understand how you can build teams that work transversely, and [00:56:00] incentivize behaviors that ultimately will ensure the best customer experience.

Robin Swithinbank: That, that all makes sense. the, I suppose the challenges and it's. I've come back now to a, a theme or even a mantra that is starting to evolve as we go through this season of the podcast, and it's becoming a more and more common part of the dialogue that I have when I speak with CEOs is that, and, and this is the idea that, in a world of artificial intelligence, in a world where we're increasingly digital, increasingly virtual, and where something within us reacts negatively to that something is, is nervous about it, that the, the real, the tangible and the human, don't just become more important.

They become much more valuable. So how, how do brands, how do businesses run those two things in parallel? Because I, I appreciate what you're saying is that there is a, there's potentially even a survival issue here for those brands

don't embrace artificial intelligence and don't integrate it into every aspect of their businesses. But at the same time, if they become an artificially intelligent business and lose that quality that makes them authentic, to use another slightly jargony word,

 that might become a survival [00:57:00] issue as well. How do you, how do you bring the two things together?

Dominic Wier: Ultimately use the technology to empower jargony word, you know, you,you need people who are emotionally intelligent, who are connected with the customer. in the luxury industry, always be a customer to customer. Relationship. Yes. On a website you can have personalization automation to make it a little bit more of a, an improved experience for the end customer.

But when you come to engage with a customer in a communication, it need, it needs to be a human to human interaction. but you can surface information. To the employee who's connecting with the customer, that helps them to make the experience better, to tailor the experience to the customer. And this is what a number of very significant luxury brands are doing, is they're really just augmenting their sales associates, their contact center teams.

To better service the customer based on the information that they have. and that information is surfaced to them at the right time as a result [00:58:00] of ai, predictive analytics and so on. So it's really just augment your organization, don't replace them, help them become more efficient, better qualitative, and, keep the technology behind the veil.

Robin Swithinbank: I think even I can get on board with that. Dominic. thank you so much for those salient insights. What a pleasure it's been to have you on the podcast, a great debut. We'll look forward to having you on again soon.

Dominic Wier: Thank you very much.