Risky business: Max Büsser of MB&F on how pride comes before it all

In this episode of The Luxury Society Podcast, hosts Robin Swithinbank and David Sadigh speak with Max Büsser, Founder and Creative Director of MB&F, about creative risk, independence and long-term brand building.

Büsser reflects on leaving Harry Winston to launch MB&F without a safety net, why his gut feeling guides his decisions more than profit and how independent creators have reshaped modern watchmaking. He also discusses the unexpected rise of MAD Editions as a direct-to-consumer success and why selling a minority stake to Chanel was about succession, not exit.

Tune in for:

• Why taking risks defines true independence
• How to protect creative culture as you grow
• Lessons from MAD Editions and community-led demand
• Why mechanical watchmaking blends engineering, beauty and humanity

Brought to you by Digital Luxury Group. Produced by Juliet Fallowfield 2026 https://www.fallowfieldmason.com/ 

Transcript

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Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: [00:00:00] I got my mojo back, I think around 35 when I said, I don't care.

I don't care if people like what I do, or like who I am actually.   When you wear what I'm wearing on my wrist today, nobody knows what it is. Nobody knows the price. And when they usually discover the price, they're told, are you an idiot? Why didn't you buy a Patek instead? beautiful mechanical watchmaking is where engineering meets beauty and humanity.

 Whatever you do in your business decisions or creative decisions, they're based on pride, meaning will I be proud of that In 10 or 20 years, you actually cannot really go wrong. You can go bankrupt, but you will not have been wrong 

 choose the people you work with incredibly wisely, but not only on their competence, on their human values.

Robin Swithinbank: hello. Hello. Whether you are a loyal listener [00:01:00] or tuning in for the very first time, thank you for joining us here on the Luxury Society Podcast, brought to you by Digital Luxury Group.

Great to have you with us. I'm your host, Robin Swen Bank.

David Sadigh: And I am your co-host, David Sadigh.

Robin Swithinbank: David, so far this series, uh,well, I've, I've made sure to throw the baton straight to you as we kick off the episode, but this week I thought I'd get the ball rolling myself.

David Sadigh: Okay. Excellent. Shoot

Robin Swithinbank: Well, uh, we could talk about Anton Ano being appointed to the LVMH board, which is, that's titillating stuff for succession fancies, or indeed about carrying share price.

Rally following news. Gucci's decline, is in decline, uh, but I wanna talk about sport.for the 

David Sadigh: again. 

Robin Swithinbank: I do like talking about sports, for the benefit of our American listeners. I'm sure you've seen as well the Winter Olympics are in full swing at the moment. Um.We've just had the Super Bowl.

Congratulations if you're a Seahawks fan and indeed to your owners for appointing a British coach. and it's only a few weeks before the formula one season gets underway, and we saw Brighton going to Formula One for the first time with a team, just last week. So luxury brands are all over sport.

They're absolutely all over it. and last week a couple of deep dive pieces I'd written on the subject, uh, went live and in writing them I was, uh, I was really hit afresh by how powerful [00:02:00] sport has become as a vehicle for luxury brands. It's become a, almost like a near guarantor of success.

Uh, certainly in terms of reach, certainly in terms of rub off. it's a little harder to attribute sales directly to it.

David Sadigh: Yeah, that's what we're seeing as well. in term of data, we can see that there are like a couple of sports that are like attracting not only a much bigger and wider audience, but also a younger. Audience which makes it very appealing. But something a bit more surprising or I would say interesting is the fact that beyond just the sport itself, I think you have two trends that are like coming together.

One is the one we just described about the boom of like interest and enthusiasm for sport, but the second one is also like the experiential luxury, and you can see that you have more and more folks and obviously like wealthy affluence and so on. Spending a lot of money on experiences and experiences could be around, like Art Basel, could be around like, NBA games, UFC, golf,soccer and so on.

And, and I can see that the price of ticket are going up, that more and more clients of DLG [00:03:00] are also like thinking at Building new packages, increasing the level of experiences and so on. So think about all the watches and wonders. Think about all the different watch fair, but also art fair.

I think everyone is trying beyond sport on the jump wagon of experiential luxury. How can I create memorable events and things that money can buy?

Robin Swithinbank: Yes, and sport creates the emotion. Some of the CEOs I've spoken to about it have said that to me, that emotion is the currency they want to deal in. Um, I've been trying to figure out as well what kind of returns these brands are getting. they, they're sinking millions if not billions, into sports sponsorship.

And I'm trying to work out what returns they're seeing. And I spoke with Omega CEO Ray Eshelman, for example. he told me that during the Olympics visits to the brand's website double, which is a nice little number, but he wasn't ready to be drawn on what corresponding impact that had on sales. I also spoke to tag Hoer, CMO, and he told me the brand's F1 deal had made it the most engaged with brand on social media last year.

He also said footfall was up 15% in their boutiques. he said that sales of the [00:04:00] Formula One collection, were up 20% over the same period. So decent figures, that appear to indicate meaningful ROI for brands in sport. Uh, but one thing that really stayed with me was a comment from a sports marketing guru, a guy called Merrick Hayden.

Hey Merrick, if you're listening, Meck is a founder of an agency called 33 18, and, uh, he said this. He said Opting outta sport increasingly means opting outta future audiences. It delivers scale, emotion, and cultural relevance that traditional luxury marketing increasingly can struggle to achieve on its own.

For most brands, sport is now a growth accelerator, not a nice to have wise words.

David Sadigh: Which, I guess makes u's decision to walk away from the World Cup quite significant, right?

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah. Well, I, I think so, yes. And I still can't quite get my head around the brand's decision to walk away from the World Cup this summer. It's been sponsoring it since, 2010. and as we know, it's leveraged football very effectively since to the point where it now, well, it now owns football, certainly in luxury watch brand terms, uh, in the same way that Rolex owns golf or tennis.

Now, clearly the value of the deal must have got out of hand and the company ceo, Julian Tona, who of course we had on the pod at [00:05:00] the beginning of this season. He told me prices were crazy in another conversation that I had with him. But even so, it's still the biggest sporting e event of the year.

There'll be 48 countries taking part. that's too many by far, but that's for another day. and the whole shebang is of course taking place in North America, which has become, the watch industry's, uh, most important territory. Certainly it's very heavily reliant on the US in particular. It's its largest market now.

David Sadigh: Yeah, to some extent. And we thought comparing apple to oranges, this remind me also of the Formula One, deal with Rolex. we would've thought couple of years back that at some point Rolex won't be the official sponsor of Formula One anymore. And, I think the reason you mentioned about prices is like, probably,one of the, one of the reason there.

And, I'm pretty sure beyond the Breitling decision of,joining Formula One, we are going to see more brands, luxury brands, entering sports categories in the months to, come. by the way, who do you think, will take the new gig?

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, it's the big question. you mentioned Breitling. I spoke to George Kern relatively recently. and Amiga, CEO of Reynold, Deliman as well. They both told me that it wouldn't be them. I can't see who else in the [00:06:00] top 10 in Switzer, in Switzerland's watch brands would be a good fit really. and I say top 10 because assuming it costs at least $50 million for the timekeeping license alone, that's the analysts view, incidentally, not mine.

and then you've gotta double that. By the time you've added in activation, I start to wonder who else could actually afford it. If it's gonna be a luxury watch company, I guess you could pick out Resha meal, which is in football already, and, and I could afford it. but honestly, I'm not sure whether I see it.

And I, it means we'd be left with a Rolex back tutor, perhaps sliding in on an odds even basis. It works with David Beckham, it works with into Miami. So there's a connection there, meaning it's not impossible, but again, it's just hard to see it, I think largely because Hubo owns football.

Hubo loves football as a strap line always was. And, if any of its competitors are to take the center stage and they will in some way be compared to it and they're gonna have to do a lot of work to try and steal that territory back. So it's a complicated one. And maybe that's the gamble, Hubler taking, expecting, perhaps the tech companies to come in and take the reins in the meantime because, uh, you know,for now it's some serious un real estate.

David Sadigh: It seems you have [00:07:00] been like speaking to a lot of CEOs lately. Did you speak to Mr. Report about GLC?

Robin Swithinbank: that's the conversation that, uh, that we wanna have. I, I have got a, a date in the diary with Mr. Lumbe of, uh, the CEO of, of JLC.but I haven't had the chance to speak to him directly yet. Well, oh, right away. Yeah, you can say you've got a nice French accent. Nice Swiss accent I should say. Apologies. Um, what do you make of that story, do you think, j Lamber is gonna buy out?

Do you think Johan Rupert is gonna let go?

David Sadigh: know, I don't have any, uh, first of all, I don't have any insider information about that, but,I wouldn't see the value, of getting rid, from a Richmond perspective of a brand that is as valuable as J And my understanding is that this is a brand that has much more value as part of a portfolio of a brand.

So if, this happen one day, it means that it's probably not the last branch that is going for sale. personally I think people are like, taking like the case of bomb Meier, as some kind of indication or early market signal that this is a restructuring of the portal and so on. But I mean, let's face it,bomb Meier.

He's not a brand [00:08:00] that was suiting Mann's portfolio, entry level brand. This is a brand that would've been much better fitting with the portfolio of other luxury groups, entry level, luxury groups and so on. so personally I'm not, at this stage,buying a spinoff of, the beautiful, GE culture brand, even though I'm pretty sure there will be lots of investors.

Extremely interested that the idea of trying to do a breaking case, uh, base with a brand such as, uh.

Robin Swithinbank: I agree. I mostly sets a precedent, but I can't, and while I can see Lom Bear wanting it, I can't see Johan, Rupert wanting to let it go. there is, there's the Kern Lom Bear dynamic. They of course, were, well, let's say colleagues, but essentially they were rivals at Reach more once upon a time.

And it would be a, wouldn't be a huge surprise to know that, Mr. Long Bear was interested in, going alone so that, uh, he can prove his, his worth and his ability to build brands and in, in, in Kern's case now to build what he's calling a house of brands. Anyway, A tussle to come there, perhaps.

but David, we must, we must crack on with the show this week. We're interviewing Max Buser, founder of NBNF and one of the leading lights of 21st [00:09:00] Century independent watchmaking. I'm a big fan of Max's, but you booked him. uh, what draws you to Max?

David Sadigh: our listeners are going to enjoy listening to him for a couple of different reason. not only he is an extremely good communicator, but he's probably like one of the person was the, one of the most interesting view of the luxury watch market. I think he's,a jack of all trades, engineers, a background super good on business.

I think innovative risk taker, but also extremely consistent in the way he has been building his business over the last two decades. Uh, so, uh.interesting character. Lots of valuable experience and, uh, hopefully, everyone is going to, uh, enjoy the discussion we had with him.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, I'm sure they will. Well, I will be talking to him in just a second. Uh, butbut then stick around for our latest visit to Shanghai, where we'll find dgs. Very own Max Perro two maxes for the price of one. In this episode, max P will be giving us a rundown on the Chinese luxury market, which he believes is going to return to growth this year.

He'll explain why, but later. But for now, here's our conversation with Max Busa.​

[00:10:00] 

David Sadigh: So time to introduce our next guest. David and I are thrilled to be joined on the Luxury Society Podcast by one of the load stars of the Swiss Independent watchmaking scene. The founder, owner, and creative director of MBNF, Mr.

Robin Swithinbank: Max. Buser Max. Hello, how are you sir?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Very well, great to have you guys, Robin and David with me.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, it's great to have you here. Look, if you'll indulge us, max, before we fall headlong into our conversation, I suspect many of our listeners will know you already, but for those that don't, we thought it'd be good to do a, a quick bit of your backstory. So, max began his career in watchmaking in sales and marketing, working for la Never easy for an Englishman to say, back in the early 1990s.

Which was of course a very different time for the mechanical watch industry. Before the decade was out in age just 31, he would be appointed as managing director of Harry Winston's Rare Timepiece division, where he would stay for almost seven years, increasing revenues tenfold and introducing the much vaunted and much missed opus series of high-end concept watches.

The [00:11:00] defining moment in his professional life would come in 2005 when sensing a burgeoning interest in independent creatively led watchmaking and recognizing his own talent for experimental disruptive watch design and also for business, he would set up MBNF Max Buser and Friends. What followed would shape the next two decades of watch design watchmaking and watch culture mbfs radical, high concept horological machines, as he called them, reframed what a watch could be breaking through the fog of decades of Swiss watch design Conventionalism with pieces that weren't so much timekeeping, devices as sculptured, three-dimensional kinetic art for the wrist.

To then watchmaking had been a largely corporate affair with a narrow set of rules that for a new generation of iconoclasts, like Max, were suffocating, if not boring. Pieces followed, inspired by a smorgasbord of natural and manmade phenomena. They were jet engines and 1970s supercars frogs and [00:12:00] space pirates.

Each watch a unique synthesis of architectural K shapes and novel, brilliantly unorthodox mechanical movements created in collaboration with equally talented watchmaking friends, such as Peter Speak, Steven McDonald, Carrie Von and Jean Francois Moj. Over 20 years, max has become one of the most prolific and celebrated of independent watchmakers winning countless awards, including the Prix Gaïa, often described as the Nobel Prize of watchmaking and the GP PhD's career defining AIGUILLE D'OR throughout, underlying the company's playful spirit.

The line that a creative adult is a child who survived. Max is a Swiss national, but has made his family home in Dubai from where he joins us. For this recording, max is a filthy February day here in In the uk. So let's not compare notes on the weather. Uh, instead I wanted to start with that line.

A creative adult is a child who survived. I say I had to look up its origins and discover there. Well, they're somewhat [00:13:00] disputed, aren't they? The internet attributes it to the American novelist, Ursula K. Le Guin. but she once said she was only ever quoting someone else, a gentleman by the name of Professor Julianne f Floran.

Can you unravel the mystery? Where does it come from?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Uh, we,we actually don't know. so it's a phrase which has been always very important for me, because I used to be a very creative kid, uh, and a very weird kid. Unfortunately didn't have many friends. The therefore then in my young adult age tried to conform and became pretty boring. And I got my mojo back, I think around 35 when I said, I don't care.

I don't care if people like what I do, or like who I am actually. And, and so it was all about MBF. It was about recapturing that, that childhood, spirit. and so when we decided that was gonna be our baseline. We contacted the agent for Aga and she said, well, Ette says it's attributed to her, but she doesn't think it's her.

and so we've used that phrase, which is [00:14:00] very important and it resonates with a lot of people. There's something which is really interesting is that all of us as kids, we're super creative. all humanity is super creative. And then for whatever reasons. 90% of creative kids become adults who believe they're not creative.

And um, so I, I think it's uh, Ken Robinson who did this fantastic Ted talk about how, um, does, schools kill creativity. And, uh, he says all kids are creative because they're not scared of being wrong. And I think that's very much what defines us at MB&F We are not scared of being wrong.

Robin Swithinbank: David, were you a creative kid?

David Sadigh: maybe not to the same extent as max was, but, yeah, indeed. And, probably trying to think at Quite excited about becoming an adult, since a young age, max, I'm really excited to have you on the Luxury Society Podcast. you and I have known each other for quite a number of years.

We had many very stimulating discussion on entrepreneurship and a bunch of different [00:15:00] stuff, and at least this one can be recorded, so I'm like, very happy about it. The first question I wanted to ask is, you left the managing director role at Harry Winston, as Robin mentioned. A big, safe job to start something.

In fact, nobody had really seen before. what was the moment you decided, I'm actually doing this, and was there a point early on where you thought, you would got it completely wrong?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: So, MBNF is not a business decision. It was a really dramatically bad business decision, like all of us independents. At the early two thousands, it was never supposed to be easier. It was gonna be horribly difficult. And the best case scenario, we were not gonna go bankrupt. so what happened is that I met during Harry Winston years for, uh, Felix and Martin Fromberg Vienna Altar, which where we,we collaborated on Opus and I met people who. Knew it was gonna be. It was incredibly difficult for them. But they didn't care because that was not the point. The point was not about the business, it was not about the [00:16:00] financial returns. It was about being yourself, being a creator, being able to express yourself. And that came with a price. There was no light at the end of the tunnel.

The tunnel was the price. I thought these guys were my heroes. I was like, wow, that is incredible. but I had a chip on my shoulder. I'm an engineer, but I'm not a watchmaker. Hence, I thought I cannot create my brand. I thought I would love to create my brand. And, in September, 2003, uh, four 2004, and that's very important. I am in a plane flying back from Singapore and I'm scribbling some. I've always created, I created a Yeager, I created a Harry Winston. The pieces,I'm creating something which could be an opus. It's a watch, which looks like an eight and one side is gonna be. Buser and the other one is gonna be friends.

And I've got, that's still that page, buser and Friends, and I'm like, yes, that is it. And the idea was that the brand was only gonna be watches looking like an eight. [00:17:00] Luckily, I checked my mind afterwards and every time the second side would be I would,basically, stage where I would invite somebody to create something with me.

I resign in May, 2005. That first sketch, September, 2004, what exactly happened? I had no intention whatsoever of launching my brand eight months later, but I'd found exactly what I wanted and I thought, it's gonna take a year, two years, three years. I don't have enough money. Of course I'm procrastinating.

Of course, leaving that comfort is not. Gonna happen. And and in April, 2005, my new management, who's very happy with me, gives me my new contract for Harry Winston. And in that contract, 25 pages, stock options, 12 month severance, the whole dos beautiful contract, the last page, non-compete, non-solicitation of suppliers and impossibility to hire anybody from the team.[00:18:00] 

And here I'm looking at this paper going. Oh no, I finally found how I'm gonna make my dream come true. And if I sign this contract, I'm dead. I'm not dead because in Swiss law you can't really do it, but it's gonna be a lot of litigation and um, so I take a week's holiday. And basically play my Excel spreadsheets, my p and l and my cashflow analysis.

It's funny because I've still got it, and you've got product number one, number two, number three, number four, number five. So the one was gonna be that eight, the next. I have no idea what it's gonna be, and I've put numbers and prices and I've, I have no idea. and whatever happens at the end of those seven days is I'm clearly missing at least half the money if I'm going to just use my own savings.

Two weeks later, I'm in New York for a board meeting and I resign years later, I think of myself. I was completely off my rockers. I've never taken drugs, so that can't explain it, but it's, I think you just fall in love with an [00:19:00] idea. And once you fall in love, you're not very rational. I ho I hope everybody's fallen in love once in their life and you do a lot of stupid things, which when you look in hindsight, you're like, what was wrong with you?

And I'm lucky I did that. But there I went. I just went all in. I didn't have enough money. I didn't have a business plan. I had the sketch of my HM one. I didn't even have the final design. I go in, that's gonna set the tone for the brand and the company for the next 20 years. 

Robin Swithinbank: Flying of your, as we say in English,

David Sadigh: Yeah,

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Exactly.

Not much more reasonable after that.

David Sadigh: you are probably conscious of the fact that just these two last two minutes are probably going to entice many young entrepreneur to follow their dream.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Now, I just hope that those who follow their dream, and I really would love that because that's the why of MBNF today, 20 years later, the why is to inspire people to be more creative, to take more risks, and to find their true north because so many people. Are basically conditioned by their social environment, by their family, and [00:20:00] they end up their lives not doing what they really would like to do.

So if we could actually help them get that extra little step of courage. we have a purpose as a brand, which is not about creating watches. Watches is our medium. It's the purpose is helping people find their true north. I just hope all of them succeed. And of course not everybody will, but at least, and that's very important as an entrepreneur.

Even if you don't succeed, you will have tried, which is way better than not trying and ending your life, looking yourself going. maybe we can Do it.

Robin Swithinbank: Personal experience with that. When I, run my own business in, back, in the, in the middle of the last decade, in the mid 2010s. And I remember signing up for a bank account and it asked for a memorable phrase, so that, you know, you could prove to the machine that it was you that was trying to log into the account.

And my memorable phrase was, you never know unless you try. And I thought, if that, if that can be the banking password, then then that sort of sets me up for, well, it sets me up for successful failure, I suppose, one way or the other. 

it of course, in the last 20 years, dozens [00:21:00] of independent watchmakers, have become their own brands. It's still happening now. We're still seeing new names coming through. but I wonder thinking of MBNF as a brand, if we can, I appreciate you talk about your purpose, but you are also a brand.

Have you, as a consequence of your success become part of the watchmaking establishment? Or do you still think that you're a challenger brand? A disruptor in the space?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: That's an interesting question. I don't think, I have, ever thought of myself in the scope of the industry. So we don't do things at MBNF in contradiction or as contrarians. If everybody goes left, we will not go right. That's not the way we think. We always try and find our true north, and it's true that if you look at our business model and what we've done in 20 years, it often doesn't make any sense, I think, where the blueprint of a an MB, A case study of what not to do, but we did it because we thought it felt right.

A lot of things flopped, but we're still proud of them because we thought they [00:22:00] were right. So coming back to how we perceive ourselves compared to the rest of the industry, we're happy if we can inspire people to take those risks. I think our adrenaline is about getting out of our comfort zone is about taking risks because if we feel that we're iterating. We feel dead. We are not. Pride is our number one. for me, I created the brand so that I would be proud the last day of my life. So if I do something and I feel I'm not very proud of this, am I, then we don't do it. And what makes us proud? Taking risks. So that's how we define ourselves.

David Sadigh: Max 20 years ago, buying A-M-B-N-F was a extremely strong statement, almost a provocation. today you have collectors queuing up. has the profile of your client changed, and do you ever worry that success makes it harder? To stay provocative.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: God, you've got really [00:23:00] good questions. so yes,as I. As I created NBNF, I had no idea who was gonna buy one of these crazy pieces. And I discovered as we went by traveling like a madman by being in contact with a lot of people. And suddenly from time to time, somebody would go, oh, that's so cool.

And had the means and was ready to spend the money. and it became a community. for sure. The first MBNF owners were absolute outliers. You don't need to be such an outlier today. You still are. And it's interesting because people who are coming into the community today are still in a world where high-end, be it watchmaking or anything else is unfortunately very much, linked to flexing. NBNF owners are not in there. When you wear what I'm wearing on my wrist today, nobody knows what it is. Nobody knows the price. And when they usually discover the price, they're told, are you an idiot? Why didn't you buy a Patek instead? [00:24:00] And so. You have to imagine what sort of individual that is and our community of what we call the tribe is very interesting individuals.

Clearly not as much crazy as the first ones, but you still need, a big dose of courage and you need to be self-assertive. Now, we do not, we are not trying to be provocative. Coming back to your previous question. We are just trying to be proud and our mechanism of pride is trying something which has never been done before.

Taking, taking risks. When we come up with the SP one special project one, in 2025 last year, nobody I drew that watch in 2018 when 44 millimeter watches were the norm and creating a 38 millimeter classic watch. Nobody wanted that. Nobody expected that. Definitely not from MBNF. Do you wanna go heads on with the greatest names [00:25:00] of this industry?

Definitely not. But at some point you're like, you know what? Let's take a risk. Let's do classic as seen by us, which is not really classic, and we do it and we're terrified. And before the launch we're like, oh my gosh,

Robin Swithinbank: Even now. Even now, because taking risks for you after 20 years when you are established, and I assume there's a bit more money in the bank, it must be easier to take those risks, wasn't it?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: so you are hitting on something, which is even more interesting. The risks at the beginning of MB NL for the first 15 years defacto. Was trying to find the client. First it's already eng. It's three to five years engineering. Incredible work in it because we tend to forget that people just look at the end product.

We're in a world of Instagram and you just swipe and something new happens every two seconds. There's insane work to it. But that was one thing. Then it was finding somebody. Now it's still as much insane work, but the risk. [00:26:00] Is managing expectations. 20 years down the road, 23 calibers later, we have the feeling that the day of a launch, whatever it is, we have a community of two, three, 400,000 people going, you better wow us.

And so suddenly those managing expectations are scary. And that actually helped us because that pushes us. To even take more risks because if we go lukewarm, we'll get destroyed by our community. So it keeps us on our toes.

Robin Swithinbank: One of the things you said to then is that nobody, nobody knows what a watch is when you're wearing it, which I, I find slightly surprising. I, okay, it's not a Rolex, it's not a Patek. I can see that it's not an ap, but at the same time, I wonder if that's because of a very deliberate decision that you've made.

And you've made it repeatedly as I understand it, having spoken to you over the years, and that is very much to cap your volumes. I think at the moment you're doing 3 9400 pieces a year. Something under the, sort of the main, the [00:27:00] main arm of the business. Is that right?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: So pre COVID, we were at around 2 90, 290 pieces. It was about like 24, 25 watches a month. And when suddenly 20, 20, 21, we had hundreds and thousands of people coming to us going, how can I get one? And we all thought it was candid camera. We took a very bold decision that of not growing. So yes, we have grown a little bit, we've gone from about 290, 300 watches to 400

Mm. and, and that's, and we've kept it that way. But the company has grown. It's also grown because we had more meat because we were a startup for 15 years where, and I'm very grateful for all the people from the first 15 years were there to work those 60 hour weeks and do everything right, left and center like myself. but it was not sustainable.

So now we finally can come to something a little bit more normal.

Robin Swithinbank: Yeah, and you've also added in the MAD editions, which of course is a very different, sort of product, very different price point, a few thousand dollars rather than [00:28:00] tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. you've also said that, yeah, I think, I think you're around 5,000 watches a year, something like that under the MAD editions.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Uh, but the. The plan, as I understand it, is to, to, to retain those levels to say pretty constant at 405,000. Is, is that still the plan? And if so, why, why not continue to grow? Why not continue to increase the volumes?

'cause my ideal size of the company is 15 to 20. members and we're 72. And, and so as a company owner, and I'm sure David knows that also, there is a moment where it's very difficult. And that's what keeps me up at night is to keep that startup attitude. It was interesting, we had our annual meeting a couple of weeks ago where we take the whole team and explain to them everything we're doing over the year to come and the years to come.

And it was called Back to the Roots. It's like,guys, I don't wanna go back to the years where it was so horribly difficult, but we have to go back to the time where everybody was helping each other, where everybody was anticipating [00:29:00] issues. when you are a gazelle in the middle of the Savannah and you see the,the grass moving.

You are not thinking it's the wind. It could be a cheetah, a leopard, a lion. That's how we were. We were all the time anticipating any issues because the only thing we were sure it was gonna be one of those predators. When you start getting a big fat gazelle, that's when you're dead. So we need to go back to that.

We need many more initiatives, much more anticipation. And I've got a fantastic team. everybody loves working in the company. Everybody loves working with their colleagues, but we need to go back to that little bit sense of urgency and Already at 72, it's difficult. I can't even believe what's gonna happen if we went higher and I don't want to go down there.

David Sadigh: It's interesting that you mentioned this point about the culture because indeed it seems that, it's a challenge that many entrepreneur, are like,facing, what I've seen or noticed following a bit the trajectory of, MBNF is that the innovation do not come [00:30:00] only on the product side, but also even in term of like new product business model.

And so on the case, I would like to speak a bit about the Mad Edition. It's an interesting venture that you started out of MBNF because basically for the first time you took the business in a direct to consumer. with a direct to consumer approach for the first time selling, as Robin mentioned, thousands of pieces directly.

No retail, retail, no retailer in between. that's a completely different business right than, doing like300 or 400 high-end watches through partners. what did you learn through the process and basically what surprised you about building, this new, way of selling directly to consumers?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Mad Edition has been the most insane learning curve, and most importantly, because it's a brand I didn't want. To have, I didn't want to develop it. I didn't want it to be a brand. I basically created a brand around that first product, which was not called Mad Edition in 2014 to 2018. And in 2018 before it was launched, I killed it.

For many reasons. I, [00:31:00] my second daughter had just been born the year before. I hadn't slept like in five years between jet lag and kids waking me up in the middle of the night. I just turned 50 the year before. I just lost my mom, become a 51-year-old orphan. And I just didn't have enough time for my company, didn't have time for my family, and looking at myself in the mirror going, what the hell do you think you're doing?

So I killed it. And in 2020 17th of March when we all went to the lockdown and everything was closed, our suppliers, our retailers, us, I thought that's it. It's game over. Nobody's ever gonna buy a hundred thousand dollars watch ever. And I'm on the first, very first zooms with my team going, guys, I've left all the little profits of the company in the CO in the company.

I can probably pay the salaries for the next 12, 14 months. If somebody's got an idea, speak now, and somebody goes, well, we, we developed that watch, remember that? And I'm like, dude, [00:32:00] we're not gonna launch a new brand now. And we have the idea during that brainstorming. And that's the beauty of having a team is that all sorts of ideas and you have to help the team generate those ideas that they feel comfortable in it.

and I'm like, well, maybe we can call it an addition. An addition. You just do 500 watches, get a bit of cash. And that's it. And that's what it was supposed to be. So we do five, oh, actually 450 pieces. By, this is March, 2020. By September we realized we're not in jeopardy. The company's doing incredibly well, and then we're like, we have to kill this project because Mad Edition is gonna harm MBNF and I don't anyway, don't have the bandwidth and everything's launched.

So we decide to only allocate it to all the artisans who worked on the brand and the tribe members, the MBNF owners. We don't talk about it. Send emails to the 450 people. Of course we're incredibly naive. Three days later, one of our clients puts it on Instagram and then all [00:33:00] hell breaks loose. This is another case study of a brand, which basically I say jokingly, it's that dog you want to get rid of.

You bring him in your car to the forest very far from your home, and two days later he's in front of your doorstep wagging his tail going. I'm back and you're like, oh dude. And then you bring into another forest wave. And don't get me wrong, I love dogs. I would never do that to a dog. But, and he kept, keeps on coming back.

So from that day onwards, so from that moment, because there was all this, we were getting eviscerate on social media because we were not selling this product. So we decided to do a thousand pieces for the public, and then we did a raffle and there were 18,000 people who signed oh, no.

Robin Swithinbank: says the proverbial your own back.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: and it just went on and on. So now, 5,000 pieces. 5,000, that is gigantic, but at every raffle we have between seven and 10 people who [00:34:00] sign up with their credit card blocked for every piece we're gonna allocate. But that's it. It's 5,000 pieces. and so it's a brand, it's interesting because it's a brand which only exists two times, seven days a year.

Seven days in March, April and seven days in August, September. When we do the raffle, we every time do a new product, a variation or a new product. And, it's just taken on a life of its own. And now I have to live with that.

Robin Swithinbank: has it become the sort of business baseline in a way?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: It, it's, I'll say one thing. it gives us, a third foot to stand on. Meaning we were pre COVID. Only MB NF and 98% wholesale. So it would go through our retail partners. Now it's a, the brand is three tiers. It's one tier is MB NF wholesale, that's 300 pieces. One tier is MBNF. Retail is a hundred pieces and one tier is the [00:35:00] 5,000 Mad Editions, more or less do the same revenue, all three of them.

And it's allowed us to, To have basically in the succession plan, in making sure that whatever happens in the world. And I think we all realize that the world is going to some very weird place. Um, we.

oh my gosh. and so for whatever is happening, we hope that we will therefore have three legs to stand on and we can play around to sustain our company.

David Sadigh: I have a follow up question on independence. it seems that, a lot of, MBNF,let's say DNA, creativity, innovation, et cetera, is tied to this idea of being free-spirited and independent. In fact, it's ary in the name of MBNF. You and your friends. So selling a quarter of your company to Chanel feels like a plot twist.

What did Chanel offer you that staying fully independent couldn't.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: So it's very interesting because, you never think of your succession when you're in survival mode. [00:36:00] Which is 2005 to 2020 every year. Wondering how you're not gonna make any losses this year and how you're gonna get to next year and how you're gonna pay for all those incredible, r and d you're putting in the pipeline.

And then suddenly it gets a little bit easier because the more people who want the pieces and that's, we could start thinking 20, 20, 21 about it. I think more importantly, I unfortunately started losing friends. Heart attack, pancreatic cancer. I'm 59 now. This was, I was probably what, 55, 50, something like that.

That sort of brings you to your mortality. And so there was this whole plan of how can I make sure that this company survives me if something happens? And I had my children late in life there today, only eight and 12, and I needed to make sure that if they don't take over and honestly. There's a 10% chance they will [00:37:00] because they need to want to. They need to have the grit. you guys know the difference between an entrepreneur and a day job. We're on seven days a week, 365 days a year. It's great. And then of course, the talent. We've all seen the issues which can happen when the next generation doesn't have those three elements in it. and I'm not,that sort of dad who's like,you're gonna have to take over the company.

So I was wondering what was gonna happen. If they don't take over or what was gonna happen if something happens to me before they can take over. And, um, my wife is not integrated in the company. and, There was a very big risk that my family inherits the company. At least the 80% that I owned sales, had 20%.

My technical director's been my partner now for 17 years, and we very much aligned sales and I was like, what happens if something happens to me? And we started thinking, what was a preempting move? Which could make [00:38:00] sure that my family couldn't sell to a private equity or a publicly owned group. And I'm not, it's not about, they're not good or good, it's, they would clash totally with the values of who we are.

And it needed to be a family owned business, which has very long-term thinking and enjoys furthering craftsmanship and innovation. And we really. Met on Chanel and, so it was a coffee with the owners in watches and Wonders 2022, where they casually said, how can I help you? And I said, well, you're probably not gonna expect this, but I have a succession issue.

And 20 minutes later, basically we shook hands and more or less, two years later, the deal was announced. they don't mingle. They don't ask for anything. And when we do from time to time, ask for some help. They're always there. It's a match in heaven. it's, and of course we had asked our friends from Roman goer and F Jean who have [00:39:00] got Chanel as minority shareholders, how is going on?

Both of them are like, dude, this is incredible. So clearly we knew that there was some experience behind it and it made sense. So here we're talking succession plan.

Robin Swithinbank: we've not yet seen a watch with NBNF and Chanel, in collaboration. Of course, you've done two watches with Bulger. Do, should we expect at some point in the future to see a collaboration between you and Chanel, or is that, is that never gonna happen?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: normally never does any collab that I know of. they're, they never put their brand next to another brand.

Robin Swithinbank: So it's on them rather than on you guys?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: maybe one day

Robin Swithinbank: do.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: call and, Hey dude, would you wanna do something? Of course, with great pleasure, but.

Robin Swithinbank: let's, let's go back to the influence of independent watchmaking of the luxury watch industry. We've noted on this podcast many, many times that watchmaking is in the middle of this sort of long season of transition away from volume and towards value. The mad editions slightly distort your position because they are not a value [00:40:00] proposition, but they are by comparison to your other pieces, certainly, and produced in higher volume.

But putting those to one side, given your watches retail primarily for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, what influence would you say MBNF? and by extension, your fellow high-end independents, have had over the industry's current direction of travel?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: I don't think it's a question of price. I think it's a question of mindset now, the biggest enemies of creativity. Are, well, some of the biggest, because I can give you a long list, but are CFOs and CMOs, so your chief financial officer, his job is to maximize ROI and your chief marketing officer is to maximize the most amount of people who want to buy your product.

In both cases, none of them are going to further any risk. They're gonna be the most risk adverse animals. And, when you're an independent creator, you don't have a CFO and you don't have a CMO and you're basically [00:41:00] being an independent because you wanna express something. And if you're true, independent, because there's some independent business people, you are really, going to do that.

And then. You're lucky if somebody wants what you do. So that pure creativity comes not only from us, but a lot of my small colleagues we're all small, who just are there because that's their path in life. And it's interesting how I find that so many new and novel ideas and even in micro brands.

That way we can talk of the high-end. We can talk in micro brands. There's some really interesting things happening there. Of course, a lot of our micro brands are just mimicking high-end brands for made in Asia and cheap That's business. But you have a few who've got really cool ideas and and you've got some which are in the middle.

take somebody like Ming. Ming was started at a price point, which was around three 4,000 francs, but now there's also 30, 40,000. I [00:42:00] think, Ming has got an incredible, creativity. He is got an attitude, a creative attitude, and he's one of the many which are helping this industry evolve.

Robin Swithinbank: Uh, you just talk about it being part of a mindset. I mean, is it the mindset of the consumer as well is it is part of the problem for the watch industry that actually the consumer isn't interested to buy the, the, the, the low priced, mechanical, what shall we say? Because at that price point, there are lots of other priorities that they might have, which mean that they spend their money in, in other ways.

Perhaps it's not even on the industry, it's on the consumer.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Um, I'm not sure about that. uh, look at the end of the day, and I made a bit of a furrow a few months ago because I went online on a television thing, which was seen by 15 million people saying, let's be clear, what we make is pointless. And I made a lot of friends in the industry saying that, but it's a.

Robin Swithinbank: Peers that. A lot of CEOs have said that. I think that's a fairly, it's a welled line almost these days, isn't it? we know isn't an, and there isn't any real point to.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: So, why would we be doing [00:43:00] it? Because for me, beautiful mechanical watchmaking is where engineering meets beauty and humanity. We tend to take that whole humanity out over the last 20 years because of the companies becoming so big. and the humanity is not the face of the CEO, it's actually the people who are actually creating the products.

and so, it's if we can manage to get those three, whatever the price point, and we can generate that, somebody goes, wow, my heart is beating faster because at the end of the day. Apart from a few people, there is not much fun in buying a dishwasher, anything which is practical. We don't get a lot of dopamine out of that.

But buying something which is pointless, but it generates that, and the words of passion, emotion, whatever have been used by everybody, it's great. If it could be not to flex, it would be even better. Again, the world is what [00:44:00] it is and most people want to flex and find their brands, which cater to that and do it very well.

I, but I'm seeing more and more independents,and creators who are coming up with ideas which are not about that, and they're speaking to the other minority.

Robin Swithinbank: I like the idea of humanity. We keep coming back to that in, in this, series, that the real, the tangible and the human are essential, particularly if you are creating a product which is very high value. it's that humanity which makes the product desirable almost more than anything else, more than the design, more than the mechanics.

it's, it's, it's the essence of the product, which, really strikes at the heart of who we are and then the heart of what we want, and therefore, perhaps also at the heart of the future of this industry.

David Sadigh: it won't surprise you,max, that I want to talk a bit about ai. you are an engineer as a background. I know you, follow and, you pay attention to, the technological evolution, which is unprecedented in my view. we've covered efficiency plan ptro, but I'm really curious to,hear your thoughts.

About the impact AI might have on the watchmaking slash luxury, industry.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: I [00:45:00] don't really have an opinion.

Robin Swithinbank: Come on. You must have an opinion on that.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: I think it, it's a, um, it's a work in progress. creativity wise, clearly you can, if you're very good at creating a prompt, you can create some interesting stuff, then try and make it come to life. I unfortunately get a lot of young designers sending me their portfolio and we don't accept that because there are massive amount of IP issues if you do that.

But then sometimes in the email, they'll put an image and it's clearly AI generated. You are like, okay, so AI uses what already exists out there and basically it's a Rubik's cube of what already exists. And secondly, I look at some of these things I'm like, and how are you gonna manufacture that? Ah, that we didn't think of.

Okay. But that is also, In our case, 20 years of MBNF 23 calibers, incredible risks and new ideas we had to make come to [00:46:00] life. We've learned what we could do, but we've also more importantly, learned what we couldn't do. and that's,what really makes it interesting in watchmaking is that it's not about just having an idea.

There is so much. Engineering hard work difficulty just making a watch water resistant. That seems very trivial, but when you make a horological machine, how do you make that water resistant? So I see all these crazy cool ideas coming, people posting on Instagram, they're AI generating products, and I'm looking at, mm-hmm.

And how is that gonna work?

Robin Swithinbank: Reality bites.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: look, at the end of the day, anything which helps us have new ideas, great. I would prefer that they're. Human ideas. Okay. for the rest, of course, it's gonna take some workload off a certain amount of people in the company. I don't exactly know how, because if all the press kits start being exactly the same as they already [00:47:00] are, but if they're even more the same, because now it's ai, which has written the press kit.

You said you, you are the journalist, Robin, you are the journalist, and you get all these press kits and you want to yawn after the second phrase. is that with AI gonna make it more interesting?

Robin Swithinbank: Oh, and I, I, I'd argue not, but then I'm extremely biased as a man of words. You know, I, I make my living by writing in, in the main, so, the prospect of machines taking over, is not one that I have an appetite for at any level, but certainly at a, at a fundamental human level. I, I, I agree. Every time I see a copy that I can clearly see as generated by ai, it's a, it's a turnoff.

And I think that's more than just my own bias. I think that is a human reaction. and we react to what is human, what is real, what is tangible, and, and long may it continue. I don't think it will ever change. And I think we're denying ourselves if we remove that agency to, to interact with something at that deep, innate, inherent level, which, is what makes us human ultimately.

So, uh,all, power to your creative elbow, certainly. 

David Sadigh: no, I was like,interested on the, on. The follow up of the AI [00:48:00] part, because it seems to me that we're looking at the overall AI shift as impact on design or press releases and so on. I'm at the impression that we're talking about something a bit deeper and that many of the cases you mentioned like water resistance and other type of elements, those AI are going to become smarter.

If they are able to decipher the human genome, there is no reason whatsoever that they won't be able also to make significant progress in the future. So I was just like thinking about the more future and the impact it could have. Do you really think that companies will have to remain like, companies with so many employees, so many people, do you think that there is a future of like co-creation between human and machine?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Uh, we're, we're gonna have to adapt like everything from horse carriages to cars, from cars to et cetera. And from concerts to, you remember when vinyls came out 109 or 50 years ago? They thought that was the end of music magicians. And then of course, then there was CDs, and then there were streaming and it is still there and we adapted.

And [00:49:00] that's how we are, that's the resilience of human beings is pretty amazing. I just don't think everything has to be clear cut like humanity. there you just have to, you adapt with what you're given. And AI is not gonna take over everything, but you're gonna have to live with it for sure.

And the real question for me is for my children, how, what are they supposed to be learning? How are they supposed to be learning? when I went to school, there was no Google. Now they have chat, GPT and my 12-year-old made me a contract so that I could give her phone because I refused to give her a phone.

And she went on to chat GPT, and basically created a contract at 12 years old saying, is this contract okay? If we signed this, can I get the phone?

David Sadigh: Are you sure she's not going to take over MBNF max?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: well.

Robin Swithinbank: That's talent and grit. Certainly.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: You're like, [00:50:00] wow, okay. so in one way, my 12-year-old is so much more advanced than I was when I was 12 years old, thanks to that.

Robin Swithinbank: Did she, did she get the phone? That's what we really want to

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Yeah. Yeah. She got the

Robin Swithinbank: She got the phone. She got the

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: She was the left in her class and we were like, she thought her parents were Amish and, and so yeah, we had to cave at some point.

David Sadigh: before,starting the recording,with Robin, I mentioned the fact that, I've known quite a number of entrepreneurs, obviously in luxury, but also non luxury, and that to me, you were like probably one of the most versatile. Like able to talk about a bunch of different topic ranging from strategy to like finance, to, obviously like product design, et cetera.

I was interested because we have many entrepreneurs or,soon to be entrepreneur listening to our show. you've been from managing director at Ari Windstone, you decided to start from scratch. what's the mistake you made early at MBNF that still make you win?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: That's a great question. it's always about people. If. Whatever you do in your business decisions or [00:51:00] creative decisions, they're based on pride, meaning will I be proud of that In 10 or 20 years, you actually cannot really go wrong. You can go bankrupt, but you will not have been wrong because you did the right decision for you.

And you will not regret it. Now, if you're a business person who's just like, how do I make more money? And you don't make money when you go bankrupt, you're just gonna be bitter. But if you do it because you want to do the right thing, whatever happens, you'll have been right. But now coming back to that, it's the people and I think.

You, you really need to surround yourself with people who share the same values and who, who. Trust is something which is built over years and years. And then sometimes I, many times we got stung, because money came in the way or other things came in the way. And you, you do everything right and [00:52:00] you get left on the side of the road.

So, choose the people you work with incredibly wisely, but not only on their competence, on their human values.

Robin Swithinbank: I couldn't agree more. Max, we, we could talk all day and I've, we've, David and I very much enjoyed talking to you, but, we must ask you one last question if we may. regular listeners will know that in a bid to end each episode on a high note. David and I have been asking our guests to, well, to, to share their reasons to be cheerful.

What's the shining light on the hill that you are looking to at the moment, which is giving you room for optimism?

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: Well, typically in our industry. It has never been so easy in so many ways. So if you come back to US creators of the early two thousands, where there was no DTC direct to customer, that did not exist. There were no blogs and ky et cetera, but there was of course no social media. and so I see that youngsters or not so young want to launch their brand.

It's [00:53:00] so much easier than it was for us. I had to spend a third of my year traveling around the world to try and meet journalists and tell the story, and if I was lucky, they would give me a little part of a page in a. Print magazine that maybe nobody was reading, and that's all I had today. The new generation goes onto social media and immediately is taken over by, because they're tribes now of people who are interested in that and boom, it happens.

that's for me. It's so much easier and and I'm so happy about that. I'm not of those old dudes who think, oh, it's too easy. No good, great, that's fantastic. And use all that energy that we had to put in stuff, which we don't have to do anymore in creating even greater products, even greater ideas, taking more risks, because it's easier now.

Robin Swithinbank: Good stuff, max. What fun, informative conversation that's been. we must Thank you. Thanks so much for carving out so much for your time to speak to us and joining us on The Luxury Society Podcast.

Max Büsser founder and CEO MB&F: With great pleasure. Thank you [00:54:00] guys. 

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: . Okay. Next up, I'm very pleased to welcome back friend of the Luxury Society Podcast, max Pay founder, and CEO of d G's sister company UB Max. Good to see you. How's life?

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Hi, Robin. It's always a pleasure to talk with you.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Where are you in the world today?

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: I'm in Shanghai 

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: in Shanghai where, uh, a rehab is based. Good stuff. Well, look, first up, you've been involved in a project with the management consultants. Bain, a quick explainer. What's the project?

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Each year, Bain releases a report that looks at the state of China luxury goods market. So for the third year now, we are very happy to cooperate with them on leveraging our insights on the gray market dynamics in China, which as we discussed in this podcast before, is a critical element to understand Chinese luxury consumption.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Yeah. Chinese luxury consumption has been wow. In China. The China market full stop has been a pretty hard watch these past two or three years for luxury brands as, but as we've been hearing both here on the Luxury [00:55:00] Society Podcast and elsewhere in the media, the Chinese luxury slump may just have reached its lowest point and whisper.

It might even be showing early signs of recovery. you're one of those who thinks the worst might be over, I gather. What are you seeing in the digital tea leaves?

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Yeah, you could say I'm one of those believers.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: I believe that an optimist, eternal optimist,

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: always. 2025 definitely ended better than it began. and we see a clear recovery that started in Q3 of 2025. This is not a broad recovery. This is not a V-shaped recovery, but it's rather selective. Selective on categories and selective on brands, which as a result is bringing even more polarization to the market.

It.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Interesting. I'm thinking broadly, how much of the Chinese spending on luxury now and how does that compare to, well, 2024 to the last pre COVID year of 2019, when, of course, luxury brands were investing very heavily in the country.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: This is a very interesting question and it requires a little bit of [00:56:00] context. If you look at the total luxury spending by Chinese consumers. Both overseas and domestic, the spending is down around 30%. But if we look only at the domestic consumption, then it's up 15%. This is between 2019 pre COVID and 2025.

Right.So I guess if you ask the China gm, she would say that luxury consumption is up. But if you ask the global chief commercial officer or the global CEO. She will say that the Chinese luxury consumption is down.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Yeah, so you've got these two groups, haven't you? Chinese luxury buyers have to be considered as two separate groups, or at least according to clear metrics. So you have the domestic buyers and you have the tourist buyers, either those who buy in mainland China and those who make their purchases overseas.

COVID, of course, reorganized Chinese spend, so that for a time it was almost exclusively domestic. But how exactly have those spending patterns evolved in the years since the pandemic, and particularly in the last year or two?

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Yeah, so based on the data from the bank [00:57:00] report, pre COVID, nearly 70% of Chinese luxury consumption happened overseas. Well, in 2025, the share of overseas purchase is around 35%. The key is what happened in between, as you said. During COVID, for almost three years, spending was trapped inside China. So during this time, brands invested heavily in domestic retail, in network, expanding their network of stores, in product offering, in service, in experience, and as a result, consumers adapt in parallel also.

as there was a significant price gap between key luxury markets in China during this year. Since COVID, many brands prioritize what they call price harmonization. So trying to reduce this price gap,between China and these A markets. So, so as a result, I would say that the motivation for Chinese to shop overseas is lower than it was pre pandemic.

[00:58:00] Also, and this is something important to consider, the shopping preference have evolved during this last six years. I think if I had to summarize it, Chinese tourist enjoy traveling overseas, but they prefer to purchase luxury in China.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Well, and that's a maturing of the market, isn't it? I, if I were a luxury brand, I'd be tearing my hair out because I look at these figures over the last five or six years that, appear in the Bain Report, and it's not like the difference is two or 3% in one way or another each year. They're big jumps in one direction or another, either in terms of overall revenue or in the split between overseas and domestic, spending.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: how in the world are brands supposed to plan when the market is changing so rapidly? That, that's a good question. I think that first of all, brands need to be fully aware that China is an extremely dynamic market. More so that. These other key markets in the West. and this can be a challenge, but this also presents a lot of opportunities. at the same time, I think we [00:59:00] need to acknowledge that, as you are mentioning just now, China's becoming a mature market, so we cannot expect.

Double digit growth for five years, for 10 years in a row. where we're gonna be seeing China moving forward is growth. Obviously there is still a lot of growth opportunities, but not this crazy, growth that we've seen in the last few years. So I think that for brands it's about really understanding that the market changes, that the consumer preferences changes, and then being on top of that to really adapt their strategy accordingly.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: You gotta be able to read those digital tea leaves on a, on an almost weekly basis, it seems. I if we can look at it through the prism of specific brands, other brands to your mind who are winning in this climate. perhaps also brands who are seeing their revenues in their market share in reverse, perhaps because they're not responding quickly enough to what's happening.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Yeah. I think that we can look at it from a segment perspective and as I said, there is an increasing polarization in the market. at the top end, absolute luxury. [01:00:00] I think it's still holding relatively well. we see that high net worth individuals are still spending, and as we discussed, often domestically or more often than before.

so I think looking at, public available data, looking at the quarterly earnings, brands like IMEs, brands like, uh, LA Bru, Cuccinelli. high-end jewelry. we've seen the fantastic results of Richmond are still holding very well in the middle aspirational luxuries where pressure is the highest.

So we see these brands that are caught between rising price, gaps between creative transitions with many brands welcoming, new designers, and also at the same time more cautious consumers, which is why. Performance among these,this segment is more uneven. We see some brands performing well, but the majority of brands in this segment, are underperforming.

And then we have the premium end where momentum is really strong. this is, due to value driven spending. these brands have a [01:01:00] clear positioning and more accessible price points that are resonating well with consumers in this cautious environment. Example of coach, exceptional results, local brands like Sanon and so on

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: How much of the volatility in the market is created by what's happening in the gray market? you are obviously very well versed in the Chinese gray market, and perhaps first of all, just remind us what the Chinese gray market looks like, how it's structured, and what it actually means to brands.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: The gray market, which is, it's something that exists everywhere in the world, but not. With the volumes that we see in China, and I think in China, exists for one very simple reason, price gaps matter. from an official retail perspective, China remains one of the highest price luxury markets globally, which is the reason why traditionally push consumers to shop overseas.

if we were to index, prices among key markets, traditionally Europe would be 100. Japan would be one 15 and then China would be 130. But at the same time, individuals and more and more corporations can [01:02:00] benefit from price arbitrage buying in Europe or buying in Japan, and then selling in China below the China rental price.

this situation gets even worse if these individuals or these corporations can buy at wholesale price. Which in the example of the index would be equal to maybe 50 or 60. So as a result, the great market in China can also become one, if not the lowest price market globally. And for brands with wholesale channels, we're seeing, on season products or permanent collections that are being sold at up to 50% discount versus China official price.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: they must be losing significant market share to the gray market, in which case.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: they are losing market share. there is a huge impact when it comes to sales cannibalization, but also there is a important dilution in brand equity and in the perception from Chinese consumers.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Yeah. Yeah, understood. What about pre-owned, how do Chinese consumers feel about buying secondhand luxury in [01:03:00] 2026?

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: I think this is interesting 'cause when it comes to absolute terms, China pre-owned luxury market is still smaller than other regions like Japan, Europe, or the us. but what is interesting here is not the size, but the speed, the pre-owned market in China has been growing at around 30%. Year.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: It's gonna catch up the rest of the world.

Yeah, it's catching up, pretty fast. Why, what's motivating these shifts? Why are Chinese consumers now ready to turn to the gray or pre-owned markets?

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: when it comes to the gray market, it has existed for years, and I think that the motivation is. It's very clear, right? It's about price, but it's also about convenience. When it comes to the pre-owned market, it's different. This is more recent and it's growing very fast, and there has been a clear shift in the mindset of consumers, especially among the younger generations, tower, buying something that belonged to another person before.

it's no longer seen as a compromise or associated with. Stigma. But, [01:04:00] nowadays it's being perceived as sustainable. It's being, perceived as smart, especially driven by price sensitivity or even moving from superstitious to being, one of a kind.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: that's a whole nother category, isn't it? we haven't really talked much about, Chinese superstitions and what influence they might have with the luxury market. Maybe that's a conversation for another time. I wanted to just ask you one other thing before we end this segment. we've talked a lot on this podcast about Chinese luxury brands.

whether that's Chinese EV brands or fashion brands are there now, Chinese luxury, leather goods, brands, handbag brands, et cetera, stealing market share from traditional European players.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Absolutely. we've seen how the premium segment is the best performing segment at the moment, and many of the brands that are leading these are Chinese brands. Brands like Mond. I'm not sure if you heard about them, but, um,

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Mesman, was that.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Mond. Yeah. they were massively covered in the press because, in a recent visit to China, by Mr.

Arnold, he personally went to a song mine shop in Shanghai, and I [01:05:00] believe that he bought two bags, to take them back

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Not the company.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Yes. Not the company, but some of the products. so this is an example that is probably the most famous,local, leather, good brand at the moment. But there are many others like Grotto or Tru Zen, and they are really growing the market share, because they have really good products, because their brand is, aligned with the cultural relevance, the values.

The lifestyle of the local consumers and also with the value for money and the price sensitivity that we're seeing at the moment in China.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: Yeah, always, in interesting insights. max, before I let you go, final thought, what, what do you predict for this year? What's your forecast for the Chinese luxury market?

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: I think that we are gonna see growth in the luxury Chinese market in 2026. Between low to mid single digits, but this growth is gonna be uneven. we are gonna see farther polarization across brands, but also across categories in a continuation of what we've seen [01:06:00] already in 20, 25. so I think it's gonna be definitely an interesting market to watch in 2026 and a market where brands should bet.

To really generate growth opportunities globally, in this year that just started.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: So it's time to head back to China for luxury brands.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: It is.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--67d39c1e674fe3f421c022bf--robinswithinbank: There it is. Good Max. Pleasure speaking with you. To always thank you so much for coming back on the Luxury Society Podcast. Good to see you.

2026-02-10--t10-04-46am--guest804918--max: Thank you, Robin. 

Speaker: Thank you for listening to the Luxury Society Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to go deeper into any of these topics, check out luxury society.com where you'll find stories, insights, and profiles that unpack what's going on in the world of luxury.

Right now, I've been your host, Robin Swen Bank, and this has been The Luxury Society Podcast available on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.