AUDIO Epi 2 It Takes Audacity. PHARMA Revolution Is Changing Healthcare NOW

Discover how the future of pharma has already arrived how this is changing the healthcare industry. Disrupt healthcare to improve public health. Redesign pharma and be part of the future! Discover how to reshape the pharma industry with innovation, patient advocacy, and regulatory strategy.  Learn how patient involvement is crucial for  in the pharmaceutical sector. 

🎞️ This is an inaugural launch episode for the IPZO facto podcast. This  is episode 2:  It Takes Audacity. 

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➡️ Connect with us!
InnoPathwayZ (IPZ) https://www.linkedin.com/company/innopathwayz-llc/
Zina Manji, Founder & Principal, Regulatory Strategist, InnoPathwayZ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zina-manji/

➡️ For more information about Impatient Health and Pharmageddon events, contact:
Lucy Osborne,  Senior Event Manager, Impatient Health https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucy-osborne-3932a749
Noreen Sajwani Head of Innovation Consulting, Impatient Health https://www.linkedin.com/in/noreensajwani
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#innovation #pharma #healthcare #disruptive

Because with healthcare Innovation, there is No Way But Forward!

Transcript

Okay, quick question. When was the last time you actually had a good healthcare experience? It's a tough one, right? I hear you. The truth is, whether you're in pharma, in healthcare, a patient or caregiver, or just someone trying to stay well, we all bump up against this tangled, complicated system. 


Let's be honest, it's not working the way it should. But here's the thing, we can do better. And it takes all of us to build something smarter, fairer, and more human. And this is why I'm so excited about Pharmageddon events by Inpatient Health, a movement shaking things up and conversations we absolutely must have. 


And I'm so excited that a discussion about these events are part of the inaugural episodes one and two of this podcast. So welcome to IPZO facto, where when it comes to innovation, there's no way but forward. 


I'm Zina Manji, a regulatory strategist in healthcare innovation, professional maze runner of the life sciences industry. I spent over 20 years working with big pharma, engaging with scrappy startups and med tech trailblazers, chasing down ideas that could actually make a difference. 


Now within InnoPathwayZ, my mission is simple, decode the chaos of healthcare innovation, and help people live better, healthier lives through new innovations. Because we don't need more buzzwords, we need bold moves. 


So if you're picking up what I'm putting down here, go ahead and subscribe, like this video, and drop a comment below. Not because of the algorithm alone, because it does help, but so that we can build this thing together, bring in amazing guests and serve up better braver conversations about healthcare's future. 


and insights and strategies and actions. All right, so let's dive in. The full episode is coming up right after the highlight reel. Oh. Exactly, and we can ask those questions like, what would it take pharma to become the most trusted industry in the world? 


But how are we going to design healthcare for serving the generation of five years from now? The future is here, and are we ready to listen? We are impacted so much more quickly by one action somewhere. 


Incrementalism is not the answer to a motivated team. So audacity attracts attention, which creates accountability, which drives action. That balance between incremental innovation and then that radical innovation. 


This is where sort of our work and disruptive innovation sits. Backcasting, and a lot of times people do forecasting, so this is the opposite of that. It's backcasting to say, that's what I want, what am I going to do to get there? 


So any company that does forecasting is doing it wrong, and I'll tell you why. Things that not necessarily are our forefront of what we are thinking about in our day-to-day lives. What are they hesitant about? 


What are we going to find the blockers in the future? And how do we have a conversation that means that we don't end up in a sticky situation? But it really relies on us understanding what is that goal that we're headed towards. 


And without action, audacity is just noise. Who better to experiment than a discipline that focuses on science? We're going to really take people out of their comfort zones completely and make them think. 


Well, hello. Welcome to the next episode of IPZO facto podcast. I'm Zina Manji, your host, and I'm so thrilled to have back with me today Lucy Osborne and Noreen Sajwani. We are going to be discussing the next part of the Pharmageddon event, and this is really around how the agenda is organized. 


And I think this is really interesting as a separate discussion because it really, I think, goes beyond the event itself since it's very innovative in my point of view. I think you'll find it to be provocative and also help for a different way of thinking and maybe help to frame some issues that you may be trying to solve where you are. 


So let's start off again with if people haven't seen the last episode yet, Lucy and Noreen, please go ahead and introduce yourself and also what inspires you and your role with Pharmageddon. Absolutely. 


Hi, my name is Lucy Osborne. I'm senior event manager at Impatient and the main producer for Pharmageddon USA. And I just think an event like this is so important. It shakes the industry up and it gets to the key issues at hand. 


Now, and hello to both of you and to everyone listening. So my name is Noreen Sajwani. I'm the head of consulting at Impatient Health. So I lead our consultancy practice that looks at things like patient engagement, medical and commercial excellence and org design and culture change, which are all sort of topics that are woven into the agenda that we've got. 


I'm also one of the hosts alongside Paul Simms, our CEO at  Pharmageddon. So very excited to be here and share the space with both of you today. Excellent, thank you. So Pharmageddon is structured around a really interesting agenda. 


And so let's... Just get in, let's get right into that. Tell me about the structure of the agenda. So our agenda is based around the four A's. It's a model that Paul Simms referenced in Pharmageddon Europe last year. 


And it is all about audacity, attention, accountability and action. And the reason that we use these four A's is we believe it's a pathway. So audacity attracts attention, which creates accountability, which drives action. 


In other words, the bigger and more audacious our goals are, the more likely they are to happen. Incrementalism is not the answer to a motivated team. Yeah, and I think what Lucy talks about is that that last bit around incrementalism is really something that we try to do, not just with sort of Pharmageddon as a discussion point or as an activity or an event, but really it's kind of how do we bring that element to break down the incremental change? 


You know, we always talk about change happening in almost a linear fashion. It's almost a slope. Then you've got events like COVID that come in and really disrupt. And a lot of our work I think is centered around that disruption. 


So it's really a framework or a path for us to be able to break that incremental approach that people often find themselves slogging away and day after day in an industry that can be slower than others like pharma. 


So really we're talking about the different types of innovation. And I think it's important to kind of anchor the audience on those types of innovations. Then we get down to what are we really looking at for the future? 


Yeah, so a lot of kind of, and this is more looking at the methodology behind what effectively does influence the four A's. But, you know, when we look at, for example, imagine a two by two matrix, you've kind of got your technology and then you've got your market. 


And when you're trying to get new technology into an existing market, that's incremental innovation, right? It's one kind of element that's being changed in that environment. A reorg within a company can be seen as incremental innovation for that fact, right? 


It's a different type of process that's being introduced to an existing structure. But what we're really interested in looking at is kind of a new technology and a new aspect of a market. And that kind of hints us towards disruptive or actually radical innovation. 


And I think, you know, a lot of times people will say, oh, radical innovation is a great philosophical exercise. It's a great thought process. But actually, how do I make that tangible? We hear this a lot in client conversations. 


How do I approach this in a, how do I make this tangible for my local market? How do I put this in practice tomorrow? I have a job that I have to do. And so to kind of find that balance between incremental innovation and then that radical innovation, this is where sort of our work in disruptive innovation sits. 


And so it kind of blends that sort of balance between kind of how we have new technology and we're trying to work within an existing market like pharma, but we're using that new technology in a way that allows us to maintain a competitive edge, that allows us to reimagine healthcare as is actually one of the topics of the Pharmageddon sessions that we do as well. 


Yeah, so on that topic, and when you talk about radical innovation, I did notice that there's a description also in the preparation for the event about redesigning health, not just healthcare. So it might sound the same to some people, but please discuss how you see the difference. 


Yeah, well, this is actually part of our solve session. So this isn't a panel discussion. It goes into something that Noreen has created with her amazing team, where we use a mixture of strategic design and futures thinking and really dig deep into putting people into a different world or really making them think differently. 


Noreen can talk more on the actual, the workings of how this solve session goes, but it's really clever. Yeah, and I want to... I'll just inform the audience that in the last episode, we did go through a little bit of that, but Noreen, please. 


Yeah, for sure. And I won't give away too much because Lucy will probably be very upset if we give away the telltale secrets of the agenda. But I think, you know, when we look at something like health versus health care, we are typically as an industry centering ourselves around the assumption that we are ill, that disease happens, we have to deal with that right that's caring for our health. 


And I think one of the reasons why, you know, Lucy and the team really thought about let's not just redesign health care let's redesign health is because looking at health as a concept brings us so much broader into what is it to be well, not just what is it to be ill, you know, instead of looking at cures for diseases, why don't we look at how we can maintain quality of life as as a metric that we that we serve. 


One of the things that you know Lucy's been great about is to say Let's bring in other industries into the discussion. The wellbeing industry has skyrocketed over the last five years, particularly with COVID and health is, you know, the emotional, the social, the physical, it's the mental, it's all these aspects of wellbeing. 


And so there's almost a duty, there's an obligation that we have to bring those aspects of the conversation to the forefront and really get people to not just think about the medicines that we're creating or even a beyond the pill solution, but really what are those futures that we could be living in? 


And let's say there are no more patients that are ill ever again. What does that world look like? How can we still contribute as pharma into that world and the future? And I think that's some of the bits that we'll try to explore hopefully in the session. 


Yeah, I think that's really interesting because as we bring together a group of people in these solve sessions, one of the things is people come from the seat they're currently sitting in and that seat is probably not, you know, future proof, let's say. 


It's not gonna serve the future of redesigning health as you described. And when we look at even everything going on today, wherever you are, we are all impacted by health because we all experienced our own health. 


As you said, Lucy, in the last episode, healthcare industry is healthcare is the one thing that binds us all together, right? And so we go back to, well, how are we experiencing disease? But then to your point, Noreen, how are we experiencing the human condition? 


So it goes broader than disease management, but let's go to the fundamentals of what is. What does health actually mean? And how do we create a framework, a societal framework within which we can all work together to serve that future, however it may be designed? 


So talking about that future, I want to get into a little bit about the innovation of design concepts here and Noreen. I think you're one of the experts in this area. And speculative design is something I've heard you talk about. 


Could you explain to the audience what that means and can that be applied to the situation of radical innovation and future thinking? Yeah, totally. So, you know, speculative design is one of those more theoretical approaches. 


approaches that you can read all about, and I sort of became exposed to it when I first joined Impatient a few years ago. But really the idea is that, you know, we live and think in the present. We're informed by the past. 


But rarely do we ever think about what does the future hold? And what can I do today to create my future? And I think that's what speculative design really does. It's the belief in multiple futures, right? 


The past has been set, the present is what you're experiencing, but really the future is unwritten, right? To quote Natasha Bedingfield, if I may. And so it means that we've got to then say to ourselves, well, there could be so many possibilities. 


And part of speculative design and part of the future's thinking is to say, you know, there are futures of health, there's multiple futures, and it's our responsibility to look at some of those different futures, and then use that to say, what's the path that I want to go down myself? 


It's almost manifesting, right? You know, we do this year to year basis, I've got loads of friends that have, you know, their mood boards for the new year, and they've manifested what they want from that year. 


If we're going to do that in our lives, why don't we do that in healthcare? That is our life, you know, at the center of it. And so futures thinking gives us that framework, it gives us that approach to look at it. 


And speculative design then says it takes it a step further. So it says, great, you've built these possible futures, but within a business context, within, you know, an industry that we operate in, there are some that are going to be probable, there are some that are more likely than others. 


And then there's what we call the preferable future. And those are the futures that that's the future. that we want to create. It's the one we're going to manifest. And it allows us to almost imagine it as a funnel, right? 


You've got tons of possibilities. You've got some probabilities and then you've got your preferable future. And that framework then allows us to say, when I go back to my desk tomorrow, what are the steps that I'm going to take in order to get to my preferable future? 


And that's where, you know, backcasting and a lot of times people do forecasting. So this is that it's backcasting to say, that's what I want. What am I going to do to get there? It's almost goal setting if you want to call it that, but in a way that really kind of starts broader and then narrows down. 


I really like this concept because yes, I think in experience we focus more on the forecasting because we're looking at the ROI and, you know, approvability by the regulatory agencies and product market fit and all that stuff. 


And how is it serving the patient and what evidence do we need to do just that? But this idea of backcasting is, if I'm understanding correctly, correct me if I'm wrong, is that as we imagine these futures, and it almost makes me think of like a multiverse, right, there can be all these different futures, but now let's think back, what do we need to do today to make that future come forward or be viable? 


So in a way, you have more agency over what actions we're taking, because I often find when we do forecasting, especially in a radical innovation, we don't know what's happening tomorrow. There could be all sorts of external events, you know, data could go in a different way, maybe you have to redo clinical studies, maybe there's other experts that have to come in, all sorts of things can happen, 


and you might need a completely different business model. So you have to do a lot of experimentation, and therefore it becomes a little bit difficult to predict that forecasting. I mean, regulations could be changed and a lot of regulations are not there yet. 


If you talk about, you know, a very different future, everything will be recreated. So I really like this concept of backcasting. Do, did I get that correct? Exactly, and I think, you know, if I can be provocative, any company that does forecasting is doing it wrong. 


And I'll tell you why, when you do forecasting, you're often looking at trends, as you say, you're looking at what's gonna happen in the future, best guess based on what I've got in my regulatory environment, in the clinical trial data that I'm seeing in sort of the, the general demographics, what you're not considering is how people change as they age. 


And so one of the things that, you know, Lucy has done an incredible job with incorporating into this particular agenda is having a Gen Z panel. And it's so important that we have that conversation because that's, that is the experience that you're talking about, Zina, that we miss in forecasting. 


We don't understand what people's thought processes, their emotions, their preferences, their behaviors will change and how then health care will not serve today's individual in five years time. But how are we going to design health care for serving the generation of five years from now, right, as they grow and evolve? 


So, Lucy, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about kind of that Gen Z panel if you will because I think it provides a really unique way of reimagining forecasting almost. Yeah absolutely I mean with this this is the lead on from this is the attention part so it's the second it's the first day it's the afternoon we've spoken about audacity and now we're into attention capturing the hearts and minds so the Gen Z voices the future is here and are we ready to listen? 


The trip by purpose, tech, sustainability, things that not necessarily are our forefront of what we are thinking about in our day-to-day lives so it gives us a little bit of insight into what the future of pharma is really going to be thinking about and for me that is insanely important especially when we're looking at this attention part of the agenda leading us down this funnel from audacity. 


On that point and in the last episode we also talked about how do you curate people participants to come to this type of again non-conference, un-conference but event and I think as you said we started with audacity and then going into attention and part of that I think was you know finding that common ground because you have to be on the same playing field I guess foundationally if you're going to then do a future casting backcasting right so that you can actually have those meaningful conversations so remind the audience a bit on how you curate attendees to such an event since it takes audacity it really requires busting down the today and the norms that everyone keeps doing the way it is because it's the way it is and incremental innovation. 


sometimes it's easier, but it may not actually benefit. We're talking about redesigning the future and how, you need those people in the room who also can take back to their organizations and foster that change. 


It's a bit different really with the Gen Z panel because we're not necessarily looking just at pharma execs that can go and take stuff back into their organizations. Yes, the other panels and the other participants that is more focused on that and looking at their everyday today. 


The Gen Z panel is more of an inspirational educational panel where we look at opinions of not just people that work in pharma. We're looking at young people in general, Gen Zers in general and saying, what are the topics they want to speak about? 


What are they hesitant about? What are we going to find the blockers in the future? And how do we have a conversation that means that we don't end up in a sticky situation later down the line? Because, you know, at the end of the day, they're gonna be taking our jobs in one way or another. 


So, you know, we have to know what they're thinking. Yeah, and it reminds me, you know, there used to be all these discussions about the millennials. No, they're so old hat. Yeah, they're old now, and so it's all dated. 


Yeah, I know we're becoming like the boomers now, so. Yeah, anyone older than the current age is, I guess, lumped in with the boomers. Yeah, it'll be Gen Alpha soon, you know, and the Gen Zers will be like, so lame. 


Well, and I think it's, you know, it's interesting, Lucy, that you say that because one of the things that I was sort of arguing on the Gen Z panel that we did, the webinar that we did earlier this year through Impatient Health was stop looking at Gen Z as your target audience. 


If you're doing that, you're already behind. Gen Beta is actually, they're the ones that we're serving healthcare for because it starts, you know, health starts in the womb, right, it's pre-birth, it's kind of maternal health, it's women's health. 


And so, you know, we now have the first set of Gen Beta babies that are being born. They're the ones that HCPs need to be looking at supporting because they're also the ones that are gonna be coming into internal medicine very soon. 


It's not just the OBGYNs and the pediatricians that are gonna be serving them. So really, how do we genuinely think in kind of a foresight mindset to really, I think the Gen Z conversation becomes more tangible and more kind of pertinent, right? 


So it's Zina, it's that point that you spoke about earlier in terms of let's make it actionable. And so we want to kind of open up that conversation, but definitely I would argue it doesn't stop there. 


If you're not thinking about Gen Alpha or Gen Beta by the end of these two days, I would argue we failed and we need to go back and do another Pharmageddon with you where we kind of bring that to the table as well. 


Yeah, and we actually, we go further down the rabbit hole where we go into our solve session at the end of day one and it won't give too much away, but there is, we deal directly with misinformation, TikTok videos, it's very interactive and we're gonna really take people out of their comfort zones completely and make them think about what, how people are digesting their information and how the other generations are really engaging with pharma and healthcare. 


So just a little note on how inspiring these events are. At last year's event, my attendance there was so thought-provoking for me that part of my follow-up was also putting myself out of my comfort zone and say, right, I've been in corporate for over 20 years. 


I've now founded my own company. What is my responsibility here in trying to be a change agent? And so hence this podcast was born to really bring forward those stories and help to bring forward different ways of thinking so that we can prepare and have those agnostic conversations and really go back to, well, what does health mean? 


What does improving human condition mean? Because it is needed and you were talking about beta being born. This just blew my mind because we're still trying to grasp with, well, the generation that was born in digital. 


Now we've got generation born in AI and who knows, Singularity might be coming at some point around the corner here. So talk about radical change. That means that how individuals are going to engage with their health, how they're going to engage with the healthcare system, however that may be, how healthcare is going to be served, everything is going to change because that's just the fact of life now with technology and everything advancing so quickly, 


but also with data. People will have much more information about what's actually happening in their bodies and being able to have that agency to say, right, Something needs to be different because my health is not being served here and that also leads to even stronger, more radical patient advocacy, I think as well, which is a key component for this event is also patient advocacy. 


Yeah, and I think that leads on into the third part of the agenda, which is accountability. So we're looking at, you know, taking we've looked at vaccine hesitancy we've looked at Gen Z we've looked at fake news, and then, and then we go into the start of day two, going into, okay, so what is our accountability, how are we building and earning trust. 


Trust as a new currency ethics and regulation, you know, we're getting into the thorny topics, which has been like okay big ideas. Let's really think broadly. And now, let's dig down how do we make this a reality and how do we take accountability


for the things that we do in pharma. Hello again. If the content of this video resonates with you. Join the InnoPathwayZ waitlist for early access to new content, offers, and our founder's bundle for new programming. 


We'd love to have you join the community. The link's below in the note. And I think Noreen, in those solve sessions that you've designed part of bringing forward and that accountability part that Lucy was talking about is also in the room and in those conversations, having that trust to really tackle things head on and break down your maybe dated thoughts and really try to re-imagine the future. 


And I think as we talked about on the last podcast, last episode, where it doesn't really matter where you sit in the organization, right? It's all about, okay, we all experience healthcare, so we all have something to contribute. 


Yeah, exactly. And I think alongside that, a lot of the common ground that we spoke about earlier, that's gotta be a place that happens, there's multiple levels of that. So you've got the ecosystem of health, which is how does pharma work with policymakers? 


How do payers work with HCPs? How do we all sort of work in this intertwined web to make health work and work well for the individual? And that's kind of the accountability element. But then I think when you kind of move into things like, what is our responsibility towards bringing that ecosystem into a future that we're proud of having created? 


We have that agency, that ability to then act on what we believe is a future that we're proud of. the best course for for the futures of health care. And I think that's where you know, Lucy's point around, how are we defining trust in the future? 


Very, I would argue overrated word in pharma, we all talk about getting HCP trust. So we want HCPs to you want patients to trust us. But what is that actually mean? I would argue value is another term that, you know, in one part of the organization to a CFO value is looked at very differently than to a market access team. 


And so we need to almost find common ground within our organizations of even if there are multiple definitions of one of those terms, which definition are we using in which context because that allows us to then build those common principles. 


And you know, we frame it around principles of innovation and how we do. ethical innovation, how we look at furthering the industry in a way where back to the concept of the human condition, we're doing it in a humane way. 


We're doing it in a way that's true to who we are as people. And I think that that's why those elements coming to play all at once create this milieu of almost chaos, I would argue, but also then hopefully can impact. 


Exactly. We can ask those questions like what would it take for pharma to become the most trusted industry in the world? I mean, it's a big take, but we as an event, we can ask those and dig down into like, what would it really take for us to be a really trusted industry in the world? 


I think that's really interesting because it means that we also have to acknowledge that there is a gap in trust. Yeah. Right. And we also have to acknowledge that you mentioned the term value. Value can mean something very different, different people, different areas. 


Well, what does value mean? You know, some could think of it as financial, but there's all sorts of ways that you can define value. And in redesigning health, what does that mean? What do we expect value to mean in the future? 


Yeah. Yeah. And particularly, I think, you know, when we look at Pharmageddon as an event, we obviously have Pharmageddon USA and Pharmageddon Europe. And even just the same topic in two different markets provides for really, really different perspectives. 


You know, so if you have a global biopharma organization, having that awareness of what might, you know, value mean in the US is actually very different. from what it means in Europe and it's actually even more fundamentally different and potentially not even the priority in Southeast Asia for example because we're looking at trust as our key performance indicator and so those are I think some of the conversations that we're hoping to spark as Lucy says but that's the work that's the action that needs to come out of the event right and really kind of the final part of the agenda tries to crystallize that by saying okay you've got a whole bunch of thorny challenges that you probably need to go away and work out with your team what are you going to do to start that conversation because if the conversation ends at Pharmageddon that's us failing that's not the point right is uh is when Pharmageddon's over that's when the work really starts yeah and on that point uh with redesigning health and these new methods of tackling health care and building trust, 


how do you know that you've improved it? Imagine it's going to take some metrics and different, maybe even different layers of metrics, because one metric may not actually give the entire story or it can be biased within itself. 


So this leads to a lot more thinking and action even afterwards. Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I think, you know, even when we look at how do we measure the success of, you know, Pharmageddon, Lucy says it better than anybody else, Pharmageddon is the event that's born to die. 


So when this event no longer exists, that's when we've hit our success metric overall. And I think that when we look at then kind of as you say, that progression over time, or the kind of KPIs or metrics that have been set in an organization year on year, you do see incremental progress. 


And that's okay. Because, you know, not everything needs to be radical. There needs to be a radical kind of change that happens that sort of sparks that. But then it does require slow steady growth over time, until you have the next thing that then can provide that disruption. 


And so it's almost this game of like checks and checkers that we're playing, right? Like, which one are are we going to be calculated and how we're progressing? Or are we going to really just shuffle it all up and try to start again? 


And that's a really difficult conversation that quite frankly, a lot of the attendees are grappling with, you know, a lot of folks will come to us and say, how do I measure HCP engagement in a way that's meaningful? 


And, you know, that's within our consultancy, that's, you know, measurement frameworks is something that we look at a lot with our clients but it really relies on us understanding what is that goal that we're headed towards because sometimes you know just because it's slow and steady doesn't mean that we're not doing it right and I think that's kind of a conversation that you know folks need to maybe have within their teams or their organization as well. 


So I think I think that's what you just said is uh very heartening as well because when when you're in an organization and you are following your SOPs and you've got your processes and your way of structuring projects and going through stage gate you know uh methodologies and all of these things you come in with the concept of right this is radical innovation that can really set everyone on edge though wait a minute what the heck are you talking about and it could it could even have the impression of maybe being too futuristic. 


However, I think part of the ground truths here is, as everything is advancing so quickly, and as we are impacted so much more quickly by one action somewhere, and then suddenly we're all impacted. And I think you define one of them, which is kind of the TikTok whole thing, and all of that. 


So that's just one aspect of that. But it's radical innovation, but I think I'm hearing it's also experimentation. I would definitely say so. And I mean, who better to experiment than a discipline that focuses on science, right? 


I think a lot of times, you know, you can look at the value chain across pharma, and you can argue, and I would be interested to do this exercise and say, what is the most innovative part of the value chain? 


Some would say it's the scientists, of course, because they're doing R&D. Some would say, oh, well, it's that critical point where we're looking to launch a product, you know, launch excellence T minus 24 months, because that's where we have the power to look at the rules differently or interpret them differently. 


Some would say, once the product is out on the market, and you're working with people and real world evidence and trying to kind of change things in an environment that's constantly evolving, that's when the innovation happens. 


But I think in each of those phases, what we forget is what starts at the very beginning of the value chain, that experimentation, it's from chemicals all the way to consumption, isn't it? That innovation never actually stops. 


But for some reason, we become more and more afraid. It's kind of like when we grow up, we forget that we need to play. Play is an important part of the creative thinking process. And I think in the same way, you know, Zina, what you're saying is experiment is an important part of the process. 


Because if we're not doing that, we're not being true to who we are as people that work in the healthcare industry. So we all often, we have to keep creating. Yeah. So that brings us to action. And can you tie that in Lucy, action with the Farmageddon Manifesto? 


Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the action we're turning ambition into impact. And without action, audacity is just noise. So what we then do is we'll go into a few panel sessions looking at it from insights to implementation, winning the culture wars, and then really digging down into the Pharmageddon Manifesto and what that means. 


And that is a pledge to the industry, to your fellow colleagues,  to everybody that is. related to healthcare, which is everybody in the world, and on to do better and to be more audacious and to think outside the box and create a different future for us all. 


So I love what you said about our audacity. It goes, it's not just noise. And I have been in many meetings where, now that you describe it that way, yeah, it's been a lot of noise. Well, we all wondered afterwards, wait a minute. 


So what are we doing now? I think that's what's so important about people like you, Zina, as well, when we look at regulatory as not as a barrier, but as a vehicle for innovation and to get us to the end of the line. 


So regulatory is a massive part of bringing it all to fruition and not using regulatory as an excuse not to innovate, basically. Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. Thank you. Music to my ears is a drug professional here. 


It's an enabler, not a blocker. And I think the same is true for medical affairs as well. There's also innovation that comes from their clinical design. There's so many different ways of thinking about evidence now, especially when we look at rare diseases and what does benefit risk mean. 


It's very different. And looking at the condition, your whole framework of benefit risk is different because the risk of doing nothing is oftentimes greater than doing something. So you're going to rethink what benefit risk means. 


So it all starts with audacity. It definitely takes audacity. Yeah. But then we follow through with the attention account. ability. Let me see, do I get this all right? No, you're nailing it. Absolutely. 


And action. And let's not forget that action. So really, it all ties together. But it starts with audacity and rethinking for the future. And I would say, this is not just play, it's actually necessary. 


Because if we don't have that futuristic thinking and the back casting, healthcare is going to suffer. Absolutely. And I think the main takeaway from an event like this is not just those aha moments and those takebacks. 


It's, it's also about the community of people that you leave the room with, from different companies, that you can be like, right, they gave me those insights. and it's an insight sharing exercise as well to help make your life and your job easier and those little gems often come from not the panelists on the stage or Noreen and Paul doing their thing it's actually sometimes it just comes from the person sitting next to you that you've set an assault session with that said do you know this is the barrier I have in my company and I think that's another beautiful part of pharmageddon which you don't get at other events yeah that that's so true so true and so I'm really looking forward to attending the event this year it's actually coming up very soon uh April 23rd and 24th for USA and then you mentioned pharmageddon Europe which is actually where it all started and pharmageddon USA actually came on demand by request so here we are and I imagine a future pharmageddon should should pharmageddon still be needed it could be AI robots that are on the panel and synthesizing all of the data and telling us some key insights. 


We have the pharmageddon Europe is coming up in October I don't want to get this wrong I think it's the 8th and 9th of October in Amsterdam so if anyone wants to join us there we'll be building on this agenda it only gets bigger and better every time. 


So pharmageddon USA, pharmageddon Europe and really I think what we discussed in this episode and the prior episode is really agnostic to the actual timing of the event I think these are important concepts to think about and bring into our our daily lives and our organizations and really think about okay what's what's up what's the part that I am individually playing in health care and and how can I reimagine in my organization so if you're not able to attend the event, 


do engage. I think, you know, these are really important concepts and hopefully, you know, these messages resonates and we'll continue to bring forward guests on this podcast and Lucy and Noreen, should you want to share thoughts in future, please come back. 


Yeah, absolutely. I just want to say if anyone is, if any of this is interested, anybody, and if you can't make a pharmageddon, that's fine. Reach out to myself and Norine. We're always looking for people to build a community of disruptors with. 


So yeah, don't hesitate to reach out to us and hope to see you all in Philly and Amsterdam and in the future. So calling all disruptors and radical innovators. I hope disruptors come find it. Thanks so much. 


Thank you so much. It's been great having this time with you. Take care. Always a pleasure. Thank you, Zina. Bye.