Richard Hoyle: A Life in Leadership

In this episode, I sit down with Richard Hoyle — a former British Army officer whose path has taken him from military command to global enterprise sales, and then into the deeper territory of psychological insight and reflective practice. Over the years he’s woven together influences from Jungian psychology, Buddhist thought, and decades of lived leadership.

What we explore is how leadership changes as you do. Early on it’s about task, and discipline. With time, it shifts toward trust, presence, and a clearer sense of purpose. Richard shares stories from Army mess rooms and executive boardrooms, looking at how people actually grow, what makes teams work, and how culture is shaped in those everyday, very human moments that don’t show up on a plan.

We get into how different personalities respond to pressure, how ego can pull a leader off-course, and why creativity often starts in the stillness — the moment when you’re just staring out of the window and letting the mind settle.

It’s a conversation about learning, listening, and leading with real attention — both the practical side and the personal side of the work.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:05:20 Unknown Today's guest is Richard Hoyle, trainer, speaker, and coach with a lifelong commitment to leadership and teamwork.

 00:00:05:22 - 00:00:31:21 Unknown He began his career in the British Army, then spent nine years in sales leadership at canon UK before becoming deeply involved in the development and delivery of the Insights Discovery model. For over 20 years, he's helped people become more aware of their potential and enjoy their work more through great leadership, team development and stress management. He brings together commercial experience, Jungian psychology, insight and a Buddhist perspective in his work.

00:00:31:23 - 00:00:35:07 Unknown Richard, welcome to the Hole Leader podcast

00:00:35:07 - 00:00:51:06 Unknown All right. Richard, thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you very much for coming. I've been really looking forward to this conversation and really excited about it. For our listeners, it would be great just if you could give a short introduction of your own. And then I've got plenty of questions for you that we'll get on too.

00:00:51:08 - 00:01:15:20 Unknown Great. Well, I think your introduction covered, the most important things, I guess is my interest in leadership really began at Santa as well. I was very lucky to be, one of the first cohorts to study with the John Adair style of leadership, the sort of team, task and individual, which I think remains really the foundation of all of leadership development and programs.

00:01:16:00 - 00:01:48:16 Unknown Since then, and it's been a real sort of fascination for me to see good leadership, which sadly is a bit rare. Some very bad leadership, which also, fortunately, is quite rare, but most of the time it's just a bit of a mismatch where people mix up leadership and management in the same bucket. And what I try to do is, really bring the personal side of it to, to leadership because I think if, if people can't lead themselves through understanding themselves, then there's no way they can lead anybody else.

00:01:48:16 - 00:02:14:21 Unknown No. Absolutely not. Well, I'm looking forward to hearing all about Sandhurst and the leadership development that you learnt there. Maybe we could take a step back before that, because it's a big decision to go into the military. And you had a long and successful career there over 17 years and becoming a major. You must have been there through a number of, well known conflicts with Northern Ireland and, the Falklands and the, the Cold War and all those things.

00:02:14:21 - 00:02:33:24 Unknown So I guess what was going through your mind when you initially joined? What was it that that took you out of civilian life into the military? Well, thanks for that introduction. Actually, it was about as deep as a puddle. I was 17 years old. I, my father showed me, a booklet for, well, but college.

00:02:34:01 - 00:02:59:12 Unknown And I thought, that looks like fun. And the rest is history, as they say. There wasn't a great drive for it. What appealed to me most, I think, was the opportunity for sport, the opportunity to, do something different, go to different places. And to have a job which involved a high degree of practicality and an element of fun in there, which is, so important in, in work.

00:02:59:12 - 00:03:22:17 Unknown But I would imagine that it it's it can't always be fun. And you must have seen how leadership, operates under pressure. Perhaps you could talk to us about your experience, of using the leadership skills that Sandhurst help you develop and that you that you rose through to the rank of major. So developing, in some of those more, difficult situations that you'd have encountered.

00:03:22:19 - 00:03:48:21 Unknown Yes. Unfortunately, I was very much a peacetime soldier, so I didn't get didn't walk away with, rows of medals as some of my, colleagues did. But I think this question of, leading under pressure is very interesting, one, because a lot of the, training that scientists and I was lucky enough to have the two year course at Sandhurst is about giving you the opportunity to experience yourself under pressure.

00:03:48:23 - 00:04:16:22 Unknown And secondly, I think what it teaches you very clearly is that you cannot do stuff on your own. You're completely, in an independent, interdependent relationship, with the people that you lead. And I find that very helpful moving forward. And those people who understood that were able to delegate effectively, which is something I had to learn, to delegate effectively and trust people.

00:04:17:00 - 00:04:43:09 Unknown And I think one of the reasons why leadership, although a multi-million pound business is the training of leadership, fails quite often because, I said before, it gets linked very much in into management, which is about managing a process, whereas leadership is essentially about connecting yourself with other people to achieve, the task and the outcome. You might you said an interesting thing there about developing trust and delegation.

00:04:43:09 - 00:05:04:15 Unknown I'm imagining actually that deeply linked that without the delegation you can't build the trust. And with, you know, without putting a toe in the water, it's difficult to build those connections very much. So. I think a lot of people have the, misunderstanding that the Army is very much a command and control. You say jump and I say how high?

00:05:04:17 - 00:05:27:03 Unknown You know, that's that type of, approach and it but it's not like that at all. The British Army works and indeed all the British forces, work on a, on a basis of making sure people are very well trained, making sure people are very clear about what they have to achieve. And then really, the management is quite a light, light touch.

00:05:27:05 - 00:05:58:04 Unknown As long as everybody has those basic planks in place. And you mentioned, a new leadership paradigm, and you mentioned an individual that was involved in setting that shortly before you went to Sandhurst. It's not somebody I'm familiar with, but I'd love to hear more about about that person and the model that they brought in. Well, John Adair, with the action centred leadership model, basically was one of the first people who designed Earth, like, a model for for leadership.

00:05:58:06 - 00:06:24:12 Unknown And he succinctly broke it down into three, three circles, like a Venn diagram, three interlocking circles where I said the three elements, which are so important, was, first of all, the task, what you have to achieve. And if a leader doesn't achieve the task, then, then it's not going to it's not, very leadership. Secondly, the team and the team interaction, the team development.

00:06:24:14 - 00:06:51:11 Unknown And thirdly, the individual, those three elements need to connect and interconnect with each other. And if you like the the bit in the middle is what leadership is. You neglect any one of those three elements, in any way and then it falls over. It doesn't work. There have to be in harmony, with each other. The whole of of the time, clearly at different times, has a different emphasis.

00:06:51:13 - 00:07:25:23 Unknown But basically they have to be working together. The whole of the time. You neglect one and the whole thing fails. That is a very neat framework and one that I will refer back to again. You mentioned that the real magic in the is the connection to the people. And through those task delegations and the way you lead, how you're in the middle of that Venn diagram, how you're operating, maybe you've got some, example rules or things that you, that you remember from that time of, circumstances you found yourself in, where you had to apply those techniques and be the kind of a leadership glue in the middle.

00:07:26:00 - 00:07:50:07 Unknown Yes. I had a very interesting couple of years as a tank commander, where you not only have to work very closely with your, troop of tanks. I had I had four under my command. And, secondly, you were yourself an integral part of a of a crew of of, four people in the tank. And so there's an awful lot to, to think about.

00:07:50:09 - 00:08:09:16 Unknown And again, I had some quite interesting times. I, perhaps I shouldn't have it this. But I actually one of the few people who managed to turn a tank onto its side, which is not very, is thing to do. And and one day nearly, so and the same night actually nearly sank my tank. Tank in a bog.

00:08:09:18 - 00:08:32:13 Unknown Well, it was also the same night as my, son was born. So I think that was a fairly stressful, stressful time. And, yeah, you did learn a bit a bit about yourself, and you learned to trust other people, to trust other people's judgement. That was a key moment for us. And that was before social media and mobile phones.

00:08:32:13 - 00:08:58:21 Unknown So you must have had your head, had elsewhere when you were thinking about your son being born. And, I was it didn't take too much attention to the fact that we were just driving into a swamp. Yeah. And and I noticed that you spent your time in the, in the signals, which is the sort of the intersection, as I understand it, as a civilian between, the military, between the army and technology and how technology gets used and applied in the theatre of war.

00:08:58:21 - 00:09:19:03 Unknown And as a technologist and somebody from that background would love to sort of hear more about the sorts of things that you that that you did. I was very lucky, actually, Richard, because, the soldiers that, I led in that time were very much people like myself. Most of my sergeants were certainly capable of degree level.

00:09:19:05 - 00:09:50:21 Unknown Some of them had had degrees. Their technical ability was excellent. When they left the Army, they went into very good jobs in, in the civilian world. So leading them was, interesting because you, had to give reasons. You had to explain what you're trying to achieve and then rely upon their expertise. And if your form of signals said this isn't possible, then you had to, explain perhaps why you wanted it to be possible.

00:09:50:21 - 00:10:12:04 Unknown But at the end of the day, except with their advice, had worked through them, and, and trusted their technical ability. And so you worked with lots of, of, of, skilful individuals that actually could take those technical circumstances and, and make them successful as a, as a, as a leader. We're back to delegation again, aren't we?

00:10:12:04 - 00:10:38:01 Unknown Relying on the people that know the trade to apply in their own work? Absolutely. And I think one of the key, attributes of a successful leader is knowing, the difference of who they can trust and who they can't trust, who is going to spin the malign, and who's actually giving them proper sound reasons, and then listen to those reasons and then do something about it and, and because that's so fundamentally important and it's part of human nature.

00:10:38:06 - 00:10:58:20 Unknown What what have you got to sort of offer our listeners in terms of your own experience, as you identify? So the people that you can trust in those situations and the people that you can't when you're inside the tank and that's on its side and you know, you're thinking in the book, again, go back to the beginning of what I said about are people well trained?

00:10:58:22 - 00:11:23:02 Unknown Do they know their job? Have you seen them experience? Have you experienced them rather them doing that job and displaying those capabilities. And therefore you put a lot of trust with them? And also I think, do they trust you, like on a wider issue, actually trust is one of the issues that today in our management structures, we, we struggle with, it's quite frightening.

00:11:23:04 - 00:11:42:19 Unknown But I think last year, a survey was published saying that, oh, 40% of people didn't trust their managers. And so you have to think, well, where does that come from? And I think it comes from, again, a fundamental point of, of, of leadership, which I learned in the Army is you build trust through three elements.

00:11:42:19 - 00:12:05:03 Unknown One is, competence. Can the people do the job, which is what I was referring to just now. Secondly is integrity. Are they telling the truth or are they spinning you a line, which we mentioned before and that but the third element is what is known as benevolence. In other words, is the leader acting or the manager acting in their best interest.

00:12:05:05 - 00:12:32:09 Unknown Right. And if the, the follow up to say thinks that their leader is not acting in their interest, but acting in his or her own interests, then the leadership trust breaks down. And so often, you hear people saying that, oh, my my supervisor, my manager, my director is out for them, for themselves, for their own career advancement, for their own financial benefit, not for me.

00:12:32:15 - 00:13:08:03 Unknown And then the trust doesn't happen. It's so important, isn't it? And my own experience is that that kind of authentic leadership bit becomes, you know, more and more vital the further up an organisation you go, because you become more steps removed, I suppose, from the people that are. But, but are doing jobs at the coalface. And so finding ways to bring consistency to what you say and what you do so people know where they stand, being authentic and trying to give some of yourself into the, into the environment so you are with the people becomes really important.

00:13:08:03 - 00:13:30:09 Unknown And I imagine that's something that you've experienced as well. Yeah, very much so. And certainly that's why you mentioned your introduction, Richard, where the, the insights model could be very helpful because I think there is a, desire that to be a successful leader, you have to be good at absolutely everything. And if you're good at everything, the chances are you're good at nothing.

00:13:30:11 - 00:13:59:16 Unknown Yeah. So, a leader has to understand, his or her own strengths and and weaknesses and build around them at a team that will complement them and support them in the areas that they feel less strong in and then build that trust with inside that, that management team. And so management teams, which are, a collective of different individuals with different strengths and weaknesses, with a single, purpose in mind.

00:13:59:18 - 00:14:19:04 Unknown They're the ones which are the, the strongest. And I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about the, the insights model. And, and that's become a very big part of your, of your career that as we sort of leave the Army and, and before we get to insights, there is, a part of, part of your career that fascinates me.

00:14:19:04 - 00:14:44:11 Unknown We've talked about it before. Is your time at canon, and, you know, my background has been in enterprise sales and selling to large organisations, and I, I know by reputation that the time that you were working at canon, you were really at the at the forefront of enterprise sales and selling technology. I'd love to hear what you took in terms of your skills and lessons from the Army into that role.

00:14:44:16 - 00:15:16:16 Unknown Because you clearly made it a success, and you grew a team and you were running, you know, a territory for, for for canon over that time, I was very lucky in that, the the day I left the army was the day that canon introduced, a fax machine. And if anybody's listening to this doesn't know what a fax machine is going to ask your dad, because it had a piece of technology, and, I think I only got the job, as as a salesperson, I only got the job, because when they said, do you know what a fax machine is?

00:15:16:16 - 00:15:34:16 Unknown I said, yes, of course. Would you like to explain how it works? And they went, no, no, no, it's not necessary. And I think that's why I got the job, because I knew absolutely nothing about the way the commercial, world worked. And that was one of the reasons why I went for the job, other than I had a mortgage to pay.

00:15:34:18 - 00:16:01:02 Unknown Because I've my passion has been going to leadership training, but I was very much aware that I lacked that commercial experience, from being in the Army. And so kind of was a great organisation to work for, for me. Absolutely. Loved. It's tough. It's very tough because it's a very much a performance driven business, and you are only as good as your last six months because then it's a clean slate and you start again.

00:16:01:04 - 00:16:26:05 Unknown But it was a company which was growing in the UK. When I joined, it was actually a Japanese, led company, which was very interesting. The Japanese style of leadership is very interesting. And, as the the product grew, the company grew. I was able to grow with it. So when I left, I was have a budget of about 10,000,045 people working with me.

00:16:26:05 - 00:17:00:11 Unknown So it was a, you know, a good size sized business to a significant a lot of we shifted a lot of boxes as well. That way a significant organisation and a lot of deals are the margin sales from time to time doesn't get the reputation as. As a, a function which deals in authenticity. And it's one that has a reputation for, you know, sell as much as you can as quick as you can.

00:17:00:13 - 00:17:23:06 Unknown Whilst others in the business sort of, you know, shake their heads and go, oh, goodness, what have sales done now? Yeah. So coming from your own experience of leading authentically, staying connected with those around you, and getting the right balance of that, how did you approach that? Because I imagine you were able to bring something very positive and different to that.

00:17:23:08 - 00:17:44:11 Unknown As I was very lucky in that those opportunities to practice that. So I was only actually a sales person for a short period of time, and then they made me the area manager and etc., both on the direct side and on the, the dealership side of the business. But you're absolutely right, Richard. A friend of mine actually said, I can't believe you've gone into sales.

00:17:44:11 - 00:18:04:18 Unknown And I said, well, why not? I said, well, you spend your life persuading people to buy things they don't want. And that really made me sort of think about the perception of sales. But the way that I view it and the way that I sold with my eyes to it, is you're helping somebody make a decision. And if they don't want it, they don't need it, they won't buy it.

00:18:04:18 - 00:18:28:20 Unknown And if you try tricks and techniques and other things, then it'll bounce back anyway. So it's going to fail. So you might as well be open and honest and help the the person make that journey into a sale. And very often if they're coming to you that they want to buy something. So yeah, you helping them make that decision, then they can get on with their business.

00:18:28:22 - 00:18:54:00 Unknown One of the things I look for is how poor decision making can be in terms of buyers. If you're looking at you're a multi-million pound company and you're buying a fax machine for £2,000, why spend six weeks doing it right? The cost of buying that fax machine is way, way, way much more than trying to get it £100 cheaper somewhere else.

00:18:54:03 - 00:19:21:14 Unknown Quite. And so decision making was often very, very distorted. Which brings me back to the sort of like the leadership line is what are we there to achieve? What are we there to do? I say, what is the the outcome you're after? What is the values which drive behind the outcome that the leader is after achieving? And if that gets lost, you end up taking six weeks arguing over £100 over a fax machine, which is just a tool, absolutely.

00:19:21:20 - 00:19:42:17 Unknown In a system so other suits nobody because, it doesn't suit you with your targets and it doesn't suit them with the business that they need to do and takes up loads of time. Yeah. Which is the most important asset. And, and in my business as a sales manager and also more importantly in the customer's business, a question I've got to ask you because it's close to my heart.

00:19:42:17 - 00:20:14:16 Unknown Then, running a team of salespeople as a leader, what what would you reflect on as sort of important attributes as a sales leader, particularly to get to get the, to get the most out of, to get the most out of them, be absolutely clear what you want them to achieve. The, rewards and penalties for lack of achievement, talk to them, listen to them, learn very quickly, which is the waffle, which is the, the truth.

00:20:14:18 - 00:20:39:05 Unknown And then you can help them with the truth. You can't help them if if they just if they just waffle. But above all, keep them informed. I was very, surprised to find out that I was one of the few, managers who actually had regional meetings and told my people what was going on, what the region was doing, what we were trying to achieve.

00:20:39:07 - 00:21:03:12 Unknown And, our plans, our future plans to, to achieve that, rather just get out there and sell a machine. Got it. So again, that's back to kind of building that connection with your sellers, and helping them coaching them really, so that you can help them get past the waffle that they're, that they're creating. And into the, the, the stuff that you can make a difference on to, to change the outcome on their deals.

00:21:03:14 - 00:21:28:08 Unknown Yeah. Very much. And I I also I spend quite a lot of time so I thought was very important on the individual salesperson because if the individual salesperson is not achieving, there's usually a reason why. And it's not the price of the competitors. No. It's their own internal processes, her own way of thinking, their own psychology, their own motivation, of where they want to go and what they want to do.

00:21:28:10 - 00:22:03:01 Unknown Fascinating. And then after your time at canon, your, your next venture was actually into insights, wasn't it? And as I've understood it, you were one of the very early joiners of the insights business, in fact, helping to establish, establish the method and the work behind it, which, which is deeply interesting. And you talk on your on your profile about, you know, bringing in the young you in psychology.

00:22:03:03 - 00:22:30:08 Unknown And so this seems like a real change of, a real change of emphasis and really focusing on, on something quite new. Now, it might appear like that, actually, which I can understand why you might say that, but to be honest, it was more involvement. As I said, I left the Army wanting to go into leadership training, and I sort of got sidelined, if you like, into canon for a few years, which was very helpful to pay my sons to go through university.

00:22:30:11 - 00:22:54:07 Unknown So that was very, very useful at the time. So when I want you to go out into, to leadership training, I was looking for a tool or a methodology that I, I could use and, I, applied for a job as a consultant with insights they were just beginning to develop. This was their first, attempt to, build a direct sales channel.

00:22:54:09 - 00:23:30:17 Unknown And so I was that their first cohort of, of salespeople with their product. But insights, discovery, as we know and love, today, we're still in the development developmental stage at that time. Would it be, it would be helpful for our listeners if you could outline a little more about what that insights product was. As I've understood it, it's sort of, built on the psychology, built on, other models that that sort of set behind it as well to get to the point where insights was fully formed.

00:23:30:17 - 00:23:57:03 Unknown So it'd be helpful for people that don't know, just to get a little bit of insight on onto the the system. Yes. The, and the insight story, the founding father is, Andy Lothian and Andy Lothian senior. A little bit of a cathartic moment in that, he, needed some, support with young in analysis.

00:23:57:05 - 00:24:20:24 Unknown And he thought you know, this is this young in psychology is brilliant, really helpful to me. Therefore, I guess it can be really helpful for other people. So he said about, building a model. The big models around at the time were, of course, Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, very well established, particularly in America. Yes. And disk systems as like systems.

00:24:21:02 - 00:24:43:14 Unknown Yeah. So that was his starting point. But by by 97, he had, developed and I was there for a couple of years in that developmental stage of developing his own products, which was insights discovery, which was a purely young in product, and his, approach was if young didn't say it, it's not in the model.

00:24:43:20 - 00:25:04:14 Unknown So there's no add ons, there's no extras. It's just purely young. In psychology, every part of it. You can go back to a young age book and find a statement really relates to that particular aspect of the model. Fascinating. Because this wasn't the first this wasn't the first model to use sort of the union psychology as I've understood it.

00:25:04:16 - 00:25:42:07 Unknown Myers Myers-Briggs is the same in the sense that it's comes from that, from that sort of, stable as well as that. Right. Similar Spriggs type indicator, probably the world's largest, union based system, very successful, and a very good, what Andy did two things to it is he stripped some of the add ons out and went straight back to the young in psychology and, and the, I don't want to be technical about it, but he, you know, he he eliminated some of the, areas which he thought was problematic in the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

00:25:42:09 - 00:26:21:12 Unknown And, of course, he then he introduced the the colour model, right, of making, the basic, platform of insights discovery very accessible through a colour coded system. So the, the colour coded system, which everybody knows and loves and finds so very accessible, is really a shorthand for the psychology. The a doorway which you get straight into using the, the profile and of course have a big part about it was the years that he and his team spent developing the software behind it to make a profile, which is.

00:26:21:14 - 00:26:42:19 Unknown People read it as being uniquely personal to that with a very high face validity. Yes. And if people buy into that, profile and as you know, Richard, when I introduce it, I don't use the profile early on because people buy into the profiles. Wow. How do people know this about me? How does that work? And then you can go deeper into the psychology and what's behind it.

00:26:42:20 - 00:27:12:08 Unknown I find the whole thing remarkable. I mean, my own experience was that it matched me precisely when I looked at it. And yeah, it is based on some software, it's based on the model. And, so there's some real, some real magic in the, a question I've got, which I, my own exposure to, to, to Carl Jung is that ultimately what he's pushing towards is individual action, which is about the individual becoming the sort of the best version of themselves.

00:27:12:08 - 00:27:46:20 Unknown But it's an individualistic rather than a, rather than a, team or collaborative. Way of thinking, psychological approach. So what's your what's your thoughts on that? Is, is is it that people need to understand themselves first in order to do in order to relate to others better? Absolutely. So if we go back to what we talked about a short while ago, Richard, with, our three balls or our team task and individual, you know, the individual is absolutely vital.

00:27:46:22 - 00:28:06:14 Unknown You know, the individual understanding themselves. Why do I do what I do? Why do I say what I say the way I say it? Why why do I, do I think that she's a great work colleague and he's a bit of a dumbo? Yeah. What? Where does that come from? So what is my position? Because we all view the world from our our own little world.

00:28:06:14 - 00:28:31:14 Unknown Our own little way of looking at things. And the more successful you come at, particularly when I'm working with leaders, the more successful you become, the more difficult it is. Because, you know, you're right. Yeah. You wouldn't be the CEO if you got things wrong. You wouldn't have a PhD if you weren't very clever. Right? Yeah. So more, more, you're reinforcing, how good you are and how right you are.

00:28:31:16 - 00:28:45:11 Unknown And therefore, if you're right, the other must be wrong. And therefore you, you know, you've got your individual, but you haven't got your team. And so, understanding yourself, understanding your strengths of weaknesses, understanding what?

00:28:45:11 - 00:29:11:19 Unknown You know, and more importantly, what you don't know. Give you and I used the word, as, you know, a version of confidence. Yeah. You know that the moment we, we judge ourselves quite often, quite negatively or we, exaggerate, or good qualities and have a false sense of of of our ego. And so if we are more okay with ourselves.

00:29:11:21 - 00:29:30:08 Unknown Yeah. This is what I know. This is what I don't know. This is what I like is what I don't like. I put it, puts it. I'm okay. But you can be okay too. If we have that much more harmony, then we'll get on better with our our colleagues and know that they're different, that they're not bad. They're not stupid.

00:29:30:10 - 00:29:55:19 Unknown They're not immoral. They just have a different perception of the world and a different preference of why they see the world. Then, the, the connection be made stronger. And, and there's so much pressure in work to appear like you know, what you're talking about and to appear like the professional and it's on any sort of business related program you watch.

00:29:55:19 - 00:30:09:18 Unknown I going to pick for example, if you watch The Apprentice they're, they're expected to know the answers to all of the trials. Like if I don't watch it because it's been on for many series, but I used to watch it. They're expected to know all of the answers, and if they don't, that's sort of seen as a as a as a weakness in some way.

00:30:09:18 - 00:30:27:21 Unknown But what you're talking about is being more open to the things that we know we're good at and open to the things that we're not. And my own experiences, see, I've done it in two companies now, is that I'm trying not to make those mistakes of needing to appear to know the answers when I don't know them. Maybe I might have done in the past.

00:30:27:23 - 00:30:47:11 Unknown Yes, I suppose it's a bit about who you're talking to. If you're talking to the shareholders and they say, was our share price going down here? No. Ultimately there's a time and place, right? Time to play. But back to my Army experience. I needed to rely upon my my senior NCOs. A particularly the young officer I needed.

00:30:47:13 - 00:31:16:18 Unknown I needed them. And they made it very clear to me what I didn't know. Yeah. And but also, I had a job to do. And so I could focus on my job by relying upon upon them. So if you like this false sense of knowing of of is, is a barrier to development. And senior leaders have to do their homework as well.

00:31:16:18 - 00:31:45:18 Unknown They have to, you know, so they know, who to go to, who to ask advice for them, how to filter that advice and how to apply that advice. So that's that's fascinating. What might be helpful for our listeners is briefly maybe to explain what those different, kind of archetypal profiles are the colour profiles in in insights.

00:31:45:23 - 00:32:03:15 Unknown We've talked about it before, and I won't ask you to do your, your own impressions, though, that excellent of the different, different types. But I'd love to, I'd love to be able to have a bit more of a discussion about what those different, archetypes are because they start to lay that groundwork for how to relate to others.

00:32:03:17 - 00:32:33:01 Unknown And, which, as you say, is vital to being able to lead. The insights model is, as we mentioned before, they're rigid based upon four colours. And the, red represents extroverted task orientation. The blue is introverted task orientation. The green or earth? Green. So say, is, introverted and other people relationship, people orientation and the sunshine.

00:32:33:01 - 00:32:59:16 Unknown Yellow is a extroverted and people orientation. So Australia, where you got a division between the task orientation and the people orientation, whether it's introverted or extroverted. The, the that's the bit that you read about, upfront in your profile with, with the graphs. And all of those energies are very applicable to leadership. Traditionally, when people say, oh, what makes a great leader?

00:32:59:18 - 00:33:24:09 Unknown The red energy comes out quite strongly. You know, you've got to have high red energy because the red energy is about task achievement. It's about getting out there, getting things done, making things happen, driving things, things forward. And that's very, very important. The leader has to, to do that. And of course, the leader needs to know what they're talking about and needs to talk sense needs to have a knowledge base decisions.

00:33:24:11 - 00:33:55:22 Unknown And the, called blue energy is more introverted, more thoughtful, more detailed side really helps, supplant that together. And then if leadership is about anything, it's about people. Leadership is a people relationship business. You know, it's about managing people, helping people, supporting people, motivating people, building aspirations and passion and direction of fulfilment. It's it's a people business is leadership.

00:33:55:24 - 00:34:17:12 Unknown And of course, the the yellow and the green energy are really important to do that. The green particularly is around about values. Because if people do not know why they're doing what they're doing, the water should I, you know, why should I miss my child's, school play? Why should I, miss my wedding anniversary while I'm being away?

00:34:17:18 - 00:34:36:23 Unknown Just so that my boss can have a bigger yacht? You know, that's that's not a reason, is it? What is the the purpose of reason between why I'm doing things and the green earth. Green energy connects very much with that. The sunshine yellow, that extroverted, people rotation. Is that reaching out to people? Is that talking to people?

00:34:36:23 - 00:34:56:00 Unknown Is that presentation to people? Is that connecting a community with people to make things interesting, to make the fun? To make people engage. So what I'm really saying to you is, is if you want to be a successful leader, then you need to engage in all of those for energy. Right now, you'll have a particular mix, which is your mix.

00:34:56:00 - 00:35:17:01 Unknown And that's the strengths will flow from from that. But you need to learn. And and this is I, I don't appear to be rude, but I've just got high road energy. Yeah. No, you're rude, so don't do it. You know, don't hide behind it as some, people try, try to do or worse, they'll say, oh, I, I don't do detail.

00:35:17:03 - 00:35:42:15 Unknown No, you're responsible position as a leader. Get your head into the detail. Get your accountant to brief you. Yeah. Make sure you got good technical advisors behind you to give you that that that detail. That's also part of your job, even though it's not your preference. Yeah. And the I was going to interrupt the flow of the conversation because I, I actually started by saying, I'm not going to ask you to do your, your sort of caricature.

00:35:42:15 - 00:35:57:15 Unknown Okay. Would you like to because they are brilliant now. Okay. Sorry. So if you want to do them. No, no, you don't want to do, Well, I'm happy with what I said, I don't yeah. Because what you said. Okay, I don't want to go into any more. Yeah. No. Good. Okay. But if it's not relevant, take it out.

00:35:57:15 - 00:36:10:03 Unknown You know? Yeah. No, the stuff you said is all very relevant. So just before before we carried on, I wanted to go into the next bit. I wanted to make sure that, I'd given you the chance that I, I thought I saw a look on your face, like. Oh, I would have liked to have done that. I might not have done.

00:36:10:03 - 00:36:24:17 Unknown Well, I think part of it is, is to talk the hopefully of some reflection in my voice as I talked about the different. Yeah, but this is it, you know. Yeah. That's about as far as you get, I think probably for, for a couple that. I didn't mean to interrupt you. You going to want to say something?

00:36:24:19 - 00:36:34:15 Unknown If not, I can go to sort of. I just wanted to advocate for two elements of the model that relevant? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

00:36:34:17 - 00:37:05:17 Unknown So that's what people read about in their profile, Richard. These four colours working together. But the third element that, Carl Jung introduced was this difference between sensing and intuition. And I think this is a real, opportunity for teams and for leaders to really understand it, because intuition is your preference to look at the future, to look at ideas, to look at tangential thinking, to really create where we're going.

00:37:05:23 - 00:37:31:22 Unknown So, often intuition helps in that strategic thinking and getting that strategic vision, across. Whereas the sense in which is that step by step, what do my senses tell me? The way the world is that sensing, perceiving, preference really enables you to fill in the steps of how you can achieve that vision. And the two work for in leadership very, very closely together.

00:37:32:02 - 00:38:00:00 Unknown You got to have a vision of where you're going, but you've also got to have a route plan of how to get there. Right now, the two work very closely together. And again, if your preference is one way, don't forget the other. And is this what you know, you hear in other models is so the description of left brain thinking and right brain thinking, if you've got the intuition of trying to sort of reframe or frame what the art of the possible might be in a, in a, in an indirect way.

00:38:00:05 - 00:38:15:02 Unknown And on the other hand, you've got the more, clear binary view of these are the things that I would need to do. The more logical side of it is that is that another way of talking about the way we talk about the same, same sort of thing? Yeah. So the left brain, right right brain. Yeah. Paradox.

00:38:15:02 - 00:38:51:14 Unknown Yes. And and did you say there's a, there's a fourth element as well. No. They're the three. Okay. Three elements. Fine. I'm looking for colours. And so the question then, then sensing an intuition. Yeah. Excellent. Those are fascinating and really good to get some more depth around, what the elements of the insight model is. And as I was reading more about, your experience, I sort of got a, a sense that this was an opportunity in this role with insights to go out and start to have fun with teams.

00:38:51:14 - 00:39:21:09 Unknown And, I read somewhere, I think that you, that you were bringing more fun into the work with the teams that you were travelling around Europe to, to spend time with. Is that right? Yeah. So this is something I've, I had in my heart for a very many years, actually, Richard, the idea of using fun experiences, as a learning, like, somebody says no, nobody learns more than a child at play, right?

00:39:21:11 - 00:39:49:22 Unknown So play with things, open up possibilities. And to use the expression, enjoy the journey. And then think, well, what have I learned from that particular process? If we take something like the cold model of, of learning, you know, we we have an IC, we go out and we have an experience, but if we don't reflect upon what we've experience and what have we learned from the experience, then it it gets lost.

00:39:49:22 - 00:40:18:07 Unknown And so much of, so-called away days and, corporate experiences just focus very much upon either just having fun with no purpose or it's like some of the team building things. It's focussed on the task. Right? So if you've built your off and you've paddle across the river, then fantastic. And the story, the question is what happened in the building?

00:40:18:09 - 00:40:45:23 Unknown How did people interact in the building? What have you learned about yourself and your colleagues in that? What went right? What went not so right. And okay. Tough at task achievement is is great. But what have you learned from that? Right. And it's that learning. And that's where, tools like the insights discovery model give you a language and a vehicle to say, okay, why did she do what she did the way she did it?

00:40:46:02 - 00:41:16:18 Unknown And what was that effect upon me? Did I was I a barrier to it, or was I, did I embrace it and use it? That's what comes to mind. Is, is something which something which I try to bring to my work. It's a describe as, if you're familiar with the phrase serious play, which exactly is all about taking the ongoing experience of work and trying to bring serious play into it.

00:41:16:18 - 00:41:40:02 Unknown So if we're trying to win more customers, then, you know, it's it should be much less about, well, what are we going to do in this particular, I don't know, sales campaign to win a customer? More about how can we progressively learn by trying things in a way that's enjoyable, let's say playful, serious play so that we can get better and learn from it.

00:41:40:08 - 00:42:07:23 Unknown And that's that. That's what you're talking about, right? Very much so. Because, if we go right, right back again to our individual, okay, we all take ourselves far too seriously, right? And by taking ourselves too seriously, we put ourselves in a box and therefore we don't grow. Right? And, if you think about, you know, where children grow and, I want to observe on a daily basis, learning new languages that learning new skills, that are evolving.

00:42:08:00 - 00:42:32:03 Unknown So what question so what point at life do we stop growing? Do we stop learning new things? Do we stop expanding? Absolutely, absolutely. And, it's a really important lesson there that if we take ourselves, we take things too seriously. Then it, you know, it will suck the joy out of life, but it'll also stop us probably reaching our reaching our potential as well.

00:42:32:05 - 00:43:00:05 Unknown Absolutely. And it is. It stops us thinking differently because we immediately put up barriers. I can't do that. That doesn't work. We tried that ten years ago and it didn't work well. It's a different world today than it was ten years ago. Yeah, maybe ten years ago. Great idea. Wrong time. Yeah, yeah. So it helps, break down those, those, barriers that we have internally, but also breaks down the barriers that we have with, our colleagues at work.

00:43:00:05 - 00:43:22:11 Unknown Do enjoy it. Do we like our colleagues? Do we appreciate them? Do we know anything about them? And I suppose, by finding out those things, particularly as leaders, that's how you can start to develop culture as well, I guess. Yes. And then we're back to that, that culture of trust and back to benevolence. So if you know nothing about me, why should I trust you?

00:43:22:16 - 00:43:50:22 Unknown Why do you trust? Trust me if you don't know, how many children I've got, whether my. I've got an aged mother in a, a home that needs, you know, high fees or I have to work for to to keep her there. The more we know about our our people as people rather than, just operatives, then the more the greater the connection is in those those organisations.

00:43:50:24 - 00:44:10:17 Unknown And that's one of the things I learned very much in the, from the Japanese management of Canada. They were very, very close to people, and they gave people time to think. I don't think we give people time to think. I remember saying to, a Japanese senior manager that he was, moving to another job. And I said, well, what's your job?

00:44:10:19 - 00:44:34:14 Unknown And he said to sit by the window. Wow. What answer is that? Sit by the window? And he said, yeah, I have an idea to sit by the window and come up with an idea. Yeah, yeah, that's funny, isn't it? To the to the way of thinking that with that, with so that sort of, this that we're directed towards.

00:44:34:16 - 00:44:51:01 Unknown Yeah. So, you know, give people time to think and to reflect. And and if you walk around the office and you see people sitting at the desk looking out the window, most managers will probably say, come on, get on with your work. You know, I am working. I'm thinking, what is the best way to approach this company?

00:44:51:01 - 00:45:14:24 Unknown I'm thinking things. Yeah, I'm using my creative skills. I mean, what you're talking about sounds a lot like the kind of the shift that's been happening from that industrialised way of working where people clock on and clock off, and they turn up as a as a tool for a company to being a creative, a creative force who is contributing, you know, at a much more fundamental level.

00:45:14:24 - 00:45:37:11 Unknown And you probably ahead of your time, making the sorts of points you making and doing the work you were doing. What was this some time in the 90s with, with the insights. Because these are these are topics which are probably current now, but wouldn't have been then. And I know because I was working at that time. Yeah, they're are really pertinent and relevant just right now as we go through the the working from home debate.

00:45:37:16 - 00:45:56:15 Unknown Yes. You know, the two schools of thought. But you know, people are lazy working from home. And if people are in the office then they're going to be working. And I think it throws up, a number of real, really important issues for senior leaders today. Because if you your leadership style is the command and control, right?

00:45:56:15 - 00:46:19:08 Unknown You know, unless I can see you with your nose in the computer, then you're not working. It, to the point where I have to trust you to work, and that throws up a real issue again, the fundamental planks of leadership, which is. Have you trained the people? Do they know what they have to achieve to do, you know, have any barriers which will stop them achieving that?

00:46:19:10 - 00:46:37:17 Unknown If so, let them get on with it, do it, and then report back to you on their progress. And being able to manage people remotely is a challenge for some, some leaders today because they have to think, oh, what should I do today? Other I'll think about it when I get to the office. Now you've got a planet.

00:46:37:22 - 00:47:00:21 Unknown You've got to tell people, you've got to communicate. You could have trust and if somebody is, you know, goes, goes for a run after lunch, for example, we'll go for a walk in the park after lunch. The chances are in the afternoon they'll come up with better solutions, better customer interactions than if they had stayed there. Like knows the chalk face.

00:47:00:23 - 00:47:23:12 Unknown They still have the targets they've got to achieve it. It's got to be monitored. Yeah, we can't accept poor performance, but we need to manage it in a much more different creative way because to today's younger, employees demand that. And if you don't deliver it, they'll go somewhere else. Absolutely. And and what you're talking about makes a lot of sense.

00:47:23:12 - 00:47:47:18 Unknown And you can see all of the, all of the signs have always been the we want people to be creative in their jobs. We don't want them just to turn up as a number and, you know, clock on and clock off. And that means bringing creativity, creativity traditionally been, you know, outside of the industrialised world, you know, you have enclaves of artisans and creativity.

00:47:47:18 - 00:48:09:09 Unknown And it's it's not bound by the same, the same rules and the same and the same laws. I was, I was reading, an interesting book recently on the subject of productivity. And there was an example in, of a Wall Street journalist who had been researching a story about some corruption in, in the local community for, for over a year.

00:48:09:10 - 00:48:42:15 Unknown And they wanted to write their article, but there was just so much information and content that there was no common thread. So this guy sat in a hammock all summer under an apple tree and just contemplated it. And by the end of it, he worked out that the common thread was one particular old chap who had been involved in lots of aspects of it, but no real central theme, and he realised that by structuring his story that way, he was able to write a remarkable piece that ended up winning awards.

0:48:42:17 - 00:49:08:00 Unknown You know, in, in the press now, you know, it's a little bit of a tangent from the topic we're talking about here. But what I'm trying to illustrate is that creative paths aren't linear. Creative paths, lateral. They meander, and, and in the, in the working world today, that's, that's crucial to give people the space to meander, I think, is what is what you're saying.

00:49:08:01 - 00:49:40:06 Unknown Yeah. So, going back to Carl Gustaf Young again, of course, he was the great believer in dreams. And I was, working in, in Germany. And, this guy said, who on this particular away couple of days that the senior leadership team had done to deal with a particularly difficult problem. At the after a morning of analysing the problem, the trainers said, right, well, we're going to go home early today and you have my permission to dream.

00:49:40:08 - 00:50:15:12 Unknown Let's go home tonight and dream and just take a piece of paper by your bedside and whatever you've dreamt, write it down on that bit of paper. And they all came the next day with their bits of paper, and they revisited their flip charts of the analysis of the problem, and the solutions came out bit wonky. Yeah, different bits there, but gradually the people dreaming and processing internally that allowing, as young would say, their, their subconscious to to process the information and they, they came out with imaginative and creative ideas for the problem.

00:50:15:14 - 00:50:43:02 Unknown So dreaming is can be a bit scary and wonky, but there was the passages that had to be to be recognised. It's a great story and one that illustrates the point, really well. So thank you. What I was going to ask you about next is what you've been doing for quite a number of years now, through, our dynamics.

00:50:43:04 - 00:51:18:00 Unknown You work with your with your son, you work with Marcus, and you continue to teach, teach teams and help them help them develop between you, you must have seen thousands and thousands of leaders. And I'm interested in some of the maybe the, the insights, the, the thematics, the archetype ways of leading that you see both good and bad things that have come out from meeting lots and lots of people, both good and bad, in that work.

00:51:18:02 - 00:51:42:00 Unknown Yeah. Again, very privileged to work with some fantastic teams and some, some wonderful people that I, you know, greatly admire. I think one of the things that's come through in terms of what makes a really good leader is this question of purpose. Everybody knows what they have to do, but do they know why they're doing it?

00:51:42:02 - 00:52:07:21 Unknown What is it that ultimately trying to achieve? And I was, working in, in Switzerland with a pharmaceutical company, and they were, team were, well, sort of trying to get to grips of, of some of their goal setting. And I said to them, you know what, if you're if your child said to you, what do you gain?

00:52:08:01 - 00:52:30:19 Unknown What are you going to do today at work, daddy or mummy, the 5050. And that's and when they said, well I, I tell my daughter that I'm going to be working in a laboratory, analysing slides and things, and therefore I sort of said, you know, I analysed the data which comes from the the work the people do in the laboratory.

00:52:30:21 - 00:52:58:09 Unknown And after about an hour, we came the reason they went to work and the reason they should sell their children is they were finding a cure for cancer. Wow. And if you go to work thinking whatever it is you're doing, I'm going to find a cure for cancer, that everyone has. Why? You're doing it? And the. What is the bit you play in the in the kaleidoscope.

00:52:58:09 - 00:53:34:05 Unknown What? The jigsaw which will bring that cure for cancer. But it's. Why are you doing it now? Not everybody can go to work thinking I've got a cure for cancer, but, I think there's there's a wonderful example of it in the Covid inquiry, just the other week where the, general who's in charge of the logistics for when the the Army were brought in to distribute all the, PPE equipment and he said, for myself and my guys, it wasn't about delivering, gowns and masks.

00:53:34:07 - 00:54:07:04 Unknown It was ensuring that NHS professionals felt safe at work. And to me, that is the, the difference between leadership and management. Leadership is about setting that vision and that purpose. Why are you doing what you're doing? And even if you're a stacker in a supermarket shelf, you know, you know, why are you doing what you're doing or what you know, your are you there to stack shelves, or are you there to ensure a good customer experience for the people who go to that shop?

00:54:07:06 - 00:54:33:02 Unknown Absolutely. And if you have if you think that I'm, I'm putting these things here so little old, late expression perhaps, but people could easily access the things on the shelves that they're there for them. You know, that's that's what I'm trying to do. And the task is stuck at the shelves. The purpose is make it easy shopping to interact with customers, you know, which is very important.

00:54:33:04 - 00:54:54:11 Unknown And another example, actually going back to the Covid, you know, people working in supermarkets, stocking shelves became known as the frontline workers because everyone realised the people weren't doing that. There's nothing to eat. Yeah. And all of the time you're saying those things, what's what's in my head is we're back to intuition again. So what is that higher purpose?

00:54:54:11 - 00:55:23:06 Unknown And we're back to having the time to make the realisation that the, the, the, scientist is looking for a cure for cancer rather than in a laboratory analysing data. Those things require the time for the intuition to arise and to create create the insight that's going to motivate people, that gives them that existential reason, that gets them the motivation to, to, to do their best work.

00:55:23:08 - 00:55:50:23 Unknown Yeah. And and those interpersonal reactions which go along all the way back to my army days, coffee time was really important because it was the one time in the day when all the officers got together and had a chat about what was going on and what they were doing and what the the trends and thing. Yeah, was quite often a lot of workplaces, you know, don't, don't looking at the coffee machine, go get back to your desk.

00:55:50:23 - 00:56:10:08 Unknown Yeah. What is it, the coffee machine. Where the breakthroughs come, the ideas come from the the the interpersonal. Even if they're just talking about football, the fact that you're a a West Ham supporter and I'm a West Ham supporter means we'll probably get on a little bit better than we did when I thought you're an Arsenal supporter and sorry.

00:56:10:10 - 00:56:28:15 Unknown Well, as you said, we're all human and we should all try and have more fun and the things that we're doing, and that's what brings out. And the coffee time in the Army, no doubt, was that it was about connecting with the with the humans, not the not the tasks. Yes, yes, yeah. And the task is absolutely clear what you have to do.

00:56:28:17 - 00:56:58:05 Unknown And if it's not clear, it should be made clear. But the interpersonal part of it, the human part about it is the most important thing in the workplace. Got it? Fascinating. And, my next question, just briefly, you work with your son. You've, you've, you know, you've been developing a business together. What's it like working at a family business?

00:56:58:07 - 00:57:18:24 Unknown When Marcus and I came to work together, I said to him, Marcus, when we're working together, I'm not your dad. I need you to be critical. I need you to come up with different ideas because he's a very different personality to me. I need you, now. Flexible, I think. Well, that's such a good thing to say.

00:57:19:01 - 00:57:47:20 Unknown However, that has been brilliant. Yeah, yeah. And I'm. That's why I'm not retired. I still still working because I work with my grandchildren and working for, and also because I, I believe that we can make a difference to people. We can make people's work environments a little bit happier and make people a little feel more rounded and loop to feel more part of that, interdependence that we have with our work colleagues.

00:57:47:22 - 00:58:22:20 Unknown Well, I think it's great. And so many businesses used to be family businesses. And, you know, there's a more familiar culture to to the way they operated and that that sort of less so now. So it's great to great to hear that happening. So my partner. Richard, can we talk a little bit now about stress management because your part of, is, a which I'm imagining stands for International Stress Management Association Institute.

00:58:22:22 - 00:58:50:24 Unknown Okay. Institute International. But we'll take institute aspect. And it's a topic that's really relevant, isn't it, because there's so the so much, the so much discussion about stress. Now we talk about people being in digital isolation with their work. We talk about the mental health crisis. We talk about stress levels being higher for people in that busier lives than ever before.

00:58:51:01 - 00:59:26:17 Unknown Perhaps you can share your experience of working specifically in this area and helping people with stress management. Yeah. Thank you for the for the question. Because it is a very important issue and the the way it's talked about changes through through time, through stress through to resilience to mental health, that we're very much interrelated. And like that they come by often from the, position where people don't feel they have any sense of control of, of their lives.

00:59:26:17 - 00:59:59:11 Unknown If you, in fact, Frank talks very much about the logo that says part of Control. And if you don't feel you have that, then, again, you it life will become quite stressful. When I first became interested in it, there was basically two types of people and have A types and B types. And of course the in insights discovery model says very, very clearly there are loads of types of people.

00:59:59:13 - 01:00:02:15 Unknown And the stress is.

01:00:02:15 - 01:00:35:19 Unknown Occurs when you feel out of control and you start winding up your, mechanisms. In your fight or flight response. And so people feel stressed when they become perpetually in that fight or flight response. They're not in their normal static to a long, happy go lucky sort of, state. And so individual people have a complete, unique and individual view of the world.

01:00:35:21 - 01:01:06:20 Unknown And the way we perceive the world is, is totally unique for us. Therefore, experience is totally unique for for us. And therefore understanding yourself, a static understanding what your stress indicators are is really important. You know what? What causes you to slip into this fight or flight response. And and so this discovery is very useful like that. So for people who have sort high extroverted thinking, high fiery red energy, they need that sense of control.

01:01:06:20 - 01:01:30:20 Unknown They need task accomplishment. If they don't feel that doing things and achieving things, then they will feel out of control or feel feel stressful. Similarly, those who have, sunshine yellow need that personal interaction that they need to be able to express themselves to get things off their chest. Because their solutions to their issues are out there with people in this extroverted world.

01:01:30:22 - 01:01:59:02 Unknown For those people are more who are more introverted. If I think of working against my values and doing things which don't align with those values for the people of high of green energy, that again is is stressful. If I haven't got time to do things in a in a logical sequence, if I'm making wild leaps of, in my, work, then for those who are particular on the sensing side, that becomes stressful.

01:01:59:03 - 01:02:22:17 Unknown I haven't got time to line my ducks up. Yeah. Then I find it it difficult. And some of those who becomes overwhelming becomes overwhelmed. Yeah. And for those of of high who who blew out of energy again their world is is one of a detail. And is it logical. Does it does it fit. Is it based upon, on facts and evidence?

01:02:22:19 - 01:02:48:20 Unknown And if I think it's not like that, then I again, I'm uncomfortable and I feel stressful, so, it stress is very, very personal. Yes. It's as personal as every single individual. And so trying to come up with, simple solutions that affect everybody, it just isn't going to work. But there are some very clear principles. And and that's what good leadership matters.

01:02:48:22 - 01:03:14:18 Unknown You know, if you stress manifests itself very often in physical illnesses. Yes, I quite often if you've got a sick office you've got a poor leader. They tend to go to to go. Whereas good good leaders give you a clear direction, are good listeners, get people involved, know what they're doing and treat different people differently. Yes. Treat them as individuals.

01:03:14:18 - 01:03:34:18 Unknown Treat them as individuals and give them what they they know within the context, of course, of delivering the job. Yes. This is a given. And what comes to mind as you talk about, you know, people have a different frame of reference onto what stresses them. And we talked about how you can identify some of those frames through through insights.

01:03:34:20 - 01:04:02:11 Unknown What comes to mind is you what I'd read is, you describe yourself as a Buddhist. Yeah. And within, within Buddhism, to the limited extent that I understand it. Non-attachment and recognising the dukkha and the the fact that, that there is challenging chaos and stress in the world, acknowledging it's and trying to, if you like, remain unattached to it.

01:04:02:15 - 01:04:32:00 Unknown Is that part of the. Is that part of the answer as well? Very much so. We we we take everything too seriously and we take ourselves too seriously. And from a Buddhist perspective, a lot of our problems become from our focus upon ourselves, of how we feel about things. And the more we think about from a Buddhist perspective, other people, the more we move, chanted over said this the the route to happiness is quite simple.

01:04:32:00 - 01:04:56:14 Unknown You just move your focus away from yourself and onto other people and and away you go. And that gain really applies to leadership, you know, and effectively leaders think about other people. They think about their teams. They think about their organisations. They don't think about is this decision kind of, affect my shareholding bonus? And and that way it builds up, it builds trust and builds.

01:04:56:15 - 01:05:24:17 Unknown Yeah. Good good leadership. So I very, very fortunate actually worship because I, I'm able to take. My Buddhist faith. And when I had the opportunity to teach meditation and Buddhism is I do weekly and working with the insights discovery model. And young in psychology draws very, very heavily from from Buddhism or heavier than, Gold Coast of young being.

01:05:24:18 - 01:05:47:06 Unknown Edwardian white men were prepared to admit. But strong, strong correlation between the two, fit very, very neatly to to what I'm doing and is probably which is one of the reasons why I'm still doing it. You know, if it was, if I wasn't doing something, I actually believed it would help people. You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't do it.

01:05:47:08 - 01:06:12:08 Unknown Really interesting. And I think I get what you mean when you create the parallel with, with Jung and and Buddhism, they both got the, the dimension of transcendence within them. And, and and I suppose if I'm thinking about the, the Eightfold Path in Buddhism as well, it has some very clear things to say about, about about work as well, doesn't it?

01:06:12:10 - 01:06:38:14 Unknown In terms of, in terms of choosing, in terms of choosing sort of the right work to do, you talk about having a kind of humanistic approach to working with colleagues, thinking about them first, ahead of sort of shareholder value. Do you think some of those things, it's easy for them to get lost in sort of big corporate world that we're living in, though?

01:06:38:16 - 01:07:07:20 Unknown Yes. I it's a quick answer to that, that that question. I remember, Sir John Harvey-jones talking to, I was lucky enough to go to this lecture when he was talking to managers, in the, water business at the time of water privatisation. And he said very clearly, you have to remember now, whatever you've done in the past, your main aim now is shareholder value.

01:07:07:22 - 01:07:33:10 Unknown And I felt greatly saddened by that because I believe if you do that, if you do the right things right, then shareholder value will come out at the other end. And that's been proven over and over again that the places which are happiest to, to work best places to work in companies. Yes. Do best their shareholder value goes up.

01:07:33:11 - 01:07:59:04 Unknown Yeah. I mean, I can believe it. Yeah. You clearly have to do all the other right things in the marketplace, not just the market. Like sometimes very tough decisions. But at the end of the day, if you're if your heart is connecting with making work a good place to be, doing a good thing, then people stay. Recruitment costs drop down.

01:07:59:06 - 01:08:15:12 Unknown People grow, people learn, people contribute, and the company does better. You put it perfectly there. I think so, so thank you. Last question about stress.

01:08:15:14 - 01:08:45:17 Unknown You mentioned that, you mentioned that that you teach meditation as well, which my own experience as somebody who who meditates is that I find it an amazing stress relief. Do you think that, companies and leaders do enough with, sort of participatory practices, things that they can they can they can introduce the, colleagues and staff to, to help them deal with the stress and burden that gets built up at work.

01:08:45:17 - 01:08:52:02 Unknown Because it sort of seems like a taboo subject in some cases.

01:08:52:04 - 01:09:18:11 Unknown Of course, it will be helpful. But it's two, three caveats or circular issues. First, it's not for everybody. People and people got to do it in in a way which it works. Well, well for them. And it shouldn't be mandatory. It should be, opportunities with people to pursue it. And a lot of,

01:09:18:13 - 01:09:44:05 Unknown Buddhist thought is now, if you like, very much secular, cognitive behavioural therapy, that type of things is pure Buddhism. But it's, you know, in the secular world and, and really useful. And I think it's up if you guys do meditation, then, I mean, I come at it from a Buddhist perspective, but certainly I wouldn't present it in a Buddhist perspective if I was teaching it in, in, in a workplace.

01:09:44:07 - 01:10:11:01 Unknown Because it needs to be done in a totally secular way. And as you say, it's a personal, a personal thing, a personal choice. And people will find should be able to, I suppose, maybe to reframe it. They maybe companies could help them find other participative ways of addressing their stress. Yeah. If that's not for them. Yeah. And also the object of, of of stress, I think what companies should help people.

01:10:11:03 - 01:10:38:08 Unknown Do things a little bit differently, even though might just come out of their, their comfort zones a little bit. You know, for someone who's very task orientated, giving them tasks to do as a way of relaxation doesn't just work right. You know, you need you need to have complementary, things that just stretch people, and increase people's, resilience.

01:10:38:10 - 01:11:01:23 Unknown Is the, is the buzzword at the moment? I think so that they can feel more competent, more capable, and work a little bit outside their, their comfort zone. And I had a slight digression here, but I had a wonderful interest in conversation with a very senior manager in a pharmaceutical company, director. And he said, so I've got a problem.

01:11:02:03 - 01:11:33:10 Unknown He said, I've, I've got this manager who is really, really clever. She's very, very smart. She's got PhDs and all the rest of it. She's highly competent woman. The problem I have is whenever I give her a job, she immediately understands the job, immediately understands the role, understands exactly what everybody is doing. Micromanage them. And, and ends up taking over the job herself.

01:11:33:12 - 01:11:56:12 Unknown And so I can't really promote her. And my advice to him was, give her a job completely and totally outsource. Yeah. Put her in charge of other vehicles, that sort of thing. Have a comfort zone entirely. So? So she has to rely upon other people? Yeah. Yeah. And then she'll start leading them rather than micromanaging them. Take very sensible advice.

01:11:56:14 - 01:12:24:01 Unknown Very, very good advice. Very good advice. Well, you've told me about some fascinating things today, Richard. You know, starting with your years in the in the British Army, we've got to the point of discussing, the Buddhist faith at the end of our conversation. That sounds like a long journey to to to to have to have gone on.

01:12:24:03 - 01:12:44:08 Unknown Do you have any sort of final things that you'd like to, like to share as part of this conversation? No, I've really enjoyed it, Richard, thank you very, very much. It's, I've really been very lucky to to have had that journey and, lucky enough to still be enjoying doing that journey. So thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share it with you.

01:12:44:10 - 01:12:50:11 Unknown Thank you very much for, for for coming here today. And, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.