John Thompson: Presence as a Leadership Skill

What if leadership isn’t mainly about strategy or influence, but the quality of connection we bring to each moment — and to each other?

John Thompson spends his time helping leaders reconnect with themselves, with the people around them, and with what’s actually happening in the present. Through his work at Transformational Connection, he’s supporting a different kind of leadership: one that’s rooted in presence, emotional depth, and what he calls “relational intelligence” — the capacity to stay open, responsive, and human in the space between people.

In this episode, we explore John’s path from high-performance sport into humanitarian work, and how those experiences shaped his view of leadership as something built on awareness, trust, and real relationship.

Transcript

today's guest is someone whose work
lives at the intersection of presence
relationship and leadership
John Thompson is the co
founder of Transformational Connection
and a pioneer in relational and embodied facilitation
his journey has taken him from directing
a high performance tennis academy
to founding a humanitarian project in Delhi
to becoming a global teacher of embodied leadership
and deep human connection
through his development of the five principles
of Surrender Leadership
and the training programs offered
through Transformational Connection
John invites leaders to move beyond control
and into trust beyond strategy and into presence
in today's conversation
we'll explore that journey and what it means to lead
relate and live more fully in our bodies
in relationship and in this moment
John welcome
it's really great to have you here
good to be here thank you
perhaps for our listeners
you'd like to give your own introduction as well and
and and uh
say a few words well yeah
I like kind of thinking back to the
when I was running a tennis academy
and running that project in Delhi and
uh and now the work I do
and they do feel like the three
kind of
major strands of my work over the last 20 years
and
um
yeah I've had a
a big passion for that time of how
around how humans can grow and develop
and how we can liberate ourselves
and become more embodied and
yes so I'm excited to talk about all of this
and to be here with you
I'm really looking forward to hearing
about all of those things
perhaps let's start then
so you mentioned already that um
you ran an elite training academy for tennis
and if I've understood it
um with a certain difference
that it really promoted presence as well as skill
and I
love to hear your story about being involved in that
and uh
and and
and and the work that you did
yeah it
it my kind of aim was to run a tennis academy that
yeah worked with presence and uh
focused on developing the person as well as the player
and to show like
how much good could come through sport for people
but also to try and show that
that actually produced more and better players
as well so that was my aim with that
and we did we actually did mindfulness
practices with all the children
this was before mindfulness was a thing
so we were calling it relaxation training
or presence training or awareness training
but we had the kids doing that
and we actually did
life coaching with the parents of the athletes
to help them create a more supportive environment
for their children for them to do better
mm hmm and that particular part of the whole academy
was probably the most exciting
because
it really opened parents'eyes
as to how they could better support their kids
and actually got parents into their own kind of
personal
development journey that maybe was new for them
it's a um
it's a pretty tough gig I think
being a young person playing tennis to a high level
and then having parents that have to travel with you
and put life on hold to do it
I can imagine that there's a huge need for
mindfulness practices and um
helping people cope with that situation
yeah absolutely
cause parents would be you know
bringing their children to the academy
five or six times a week
spending a lot of money watching them on the weekend
um so they're making all kinds of commitment
but then also unfortunately
they would often you know
one of their their kid would
you know make a mistake and
and then they would
like scream from the balcony down at them
and like I would
I would see good work done between myself and the child
and then that can just be undone
if the parent suddenly sends a different message
and is completely critical
hmm I mean
sometimes it was really bad scenes actually and
but I can feel for the parent
because they're investing so
so so much and it's an emotional sport
their child's down there so it
it I don't want to blame the parents in any way
it was like what can we do to support them in this yeah
challenging environment and yeah
it was it was special to work with people like that and
and and
and you sort of
you see it when you watch
if you I'm sure you do sort of elite tennis
and then there's yeah
stories sort of the the
the the
the Williams sisters
their dad was sort of notoriously very
very tough and sort of driving them hard
and I imagine any
any youngsters that are getting towards the top
have got parents uh
like that but then you brought a new dimension to it
with teaching them mindfulness and presence and
and actually in the last 10 years or so
you've heard about uh
you know lots of top athletes
talking about the fact that they will
practice meditation that they'll have um
they'll have practices that they take part in
before the games to help them perform better
I think is that right
yeah yeah
yeah it's definitely become more mainstream
yeah now yeah
and so while you were doing that
um
what did you learn yourself about handling
handling pressure and helping sort of
develop those skills of embodying um
better practices yeah
well that's where it all started really
was my own
uh
tantrums on the tennis court as a player
not that not that I was especially temperamental
but it was more like
how much it would bother me when I didn't perform well
when I most wanted to like
that would just destroy my soul
ha ha
I mean that's maybe a bit strong
but it really
um from my late teens until my kind of mid 30s
I was on a mission to like why
why does this happen like
why sometimes when it most matters
does my performance go down
and like ah
this is
and when I started coaching
I was able to help other people
before I could help myself really actually yeah
it was
it was amazing to see people with similar kind of
challenges and struggles and start
and working with them in all different ways
and seeing kind of gains in them
and that would help me learn of like
oh what might be going on here and
uh and it took me a long time of
doing all kinds of things to try and help myself
um
but it it
a lot of it was just like
realizing the deeper things that are going on in me
mm hmm so when I
a lot of it was about
actually not wanting to take too much space
so the
the actual amount of passion that would come through me
and the kind of warrior spirit that was in me
part of me didn't want to become that visible
like it didn't fit with my identity somehow
and it was only as I kind of learnt that
it was okay to be so
emotionally impacted by these things
and it was alright to take space and like
facing some of the fears from the past
about when I had taken space
and things hadn't gone well
mm hmm as I started to do that
I started to
find myself playing amazing tennis at certain times
like when it most mattered
but that really took kind of 10 or 15 years of to learn
yeah to learn how to get into that flow state
and to bring it all out yeah
and I'd I'd have glimpses of that earlier
like when I first started doing mindfulness
I would have glimpses of flow states and that kind of
yeah like wow
I haven't experienced that in 10 years of
competitive tennis
but then to kind of anchor that more as like my norm
I mean there's still always work to do
I can still have but to
to anchor that more as my norm kind of took deeper work
yes over the years
deeper like coaching being coached myself
even therapeutic work mindfulness yeah
and at some point on that journey
you decided to spend some time in India
is that right
and that was that part of your mindfulness journey
yeah that's
that's where I first Learned meditation
that was one of my reasons for going there
was kind of wanting to learn
I'd read about emotional intelligence
and then the the follow up
their follow up book was
where they put lots of Buddhist meditators
under scientific conditions
and showed
all these amazing things they could do with their mind
so I wanted to learn that out in India
but I also wanted to do volunteer work
and kind of contribute when I was there
we talked about that briefly
well in my introduction
and you spent some time in Delhi
and you set up some humanitarian work there
you were looking after a street children
yeah it was actually
within a charity
that was already working with street children
that I I really liked
and then I set up a project within that
for street children
to actually guide people on a walk around Delhi
oh wow
where they would tell their stories of what it was like
when they were on the streets and
but then also
tell a story of how they had come into this uh
charity and kind of been rehabilitated
and to give people an idea of what it's like there
but also
like the story of possibility of how people can
can change
and I'd be really interested to hear
what drew you into that project
and that work cause
that sounds a million miles away from
playing top tennis and sort of
you know trying to develop your your
your mind and body skills on a court
yeah it
it was a period of kind of moving away from
it was the first time I I quit being a tennis coach
I wanted to do something that felt more meaningful
at the time
I wanted to make more of a difference in a way
and I liked working with kids
I was good at working with kids from having done tennis
coaching and yes
something just touched me about street kids
um you know
there was 100 there probably still is
but there's like
100
children
arrive at the New Delhi railway station each day
who have run away from home or got lost
and goodness they either yeah
they either get met by a pimp
or they find their way somewhere
or they they meet someone from the charity
and it just felt really meaningful
powerful work yeah
and having spent time in Delhi
and come across these children myself
it's sort of it's easy
to fill you with a sense of complete hopelessness
really isn't it
because the problem seems so vast
but you stepped in and actually did something about it
so to imagine was um
was very fulfilling what did you learn through sort of
connecting with those children and well
what they were doing what I found with volunteer work
cause I did something similar in Brazil
like
I go there with the intention to volunteer and support
and I do do that
but I also feel like I pick up so many gifts from them
and from their culture
and like even being I
I think like the the norm then with
with kids was that they
they hold on to your hand while they're talking
and there was some way that through like and
and people just even the the men
they just hold physical contact longer
yeah and there was something in that
like I was quite English
we don't touch each other much
I wouldn't really hug anyone
and there was something where
I just started to get more
used to being in physical contact yeah
with people something so simple
a simple basic human connection yeah
yeah the street kids were kind of teaching me
they were more comfortable with that yeah
and then the other thing was their spirit
like that's the stuff they had been through
and there was some and this is in the
the
the great religions from from India within Hinduism
Buddhism like this sense of acceptance
and it put things in perspective so much
that the level of acceptance they had with so little
did blow my mind and did kind of link to this
like just starting to meditate there
and this idea of like oh
we can bring more acceptance to what's happening
from each moment to the next
like that was
I could see it in the people there and it
it was just making sense of like God
I give myself a hard time and I'm not
I'm giving myself such a hard time
I don't even know what's
what's really happening and I'm quite in my mind
like so I really Learned a lot
and that's what the project I set up
it wasn't just about supporting them
which it was it was about showing people like
this inspiring story of survival
and almost like rags to riches
that sounds like
for those young people
that they kind of operated with real dignity
they were yeah
they were taking on that you mentioned the
the the
the the street tour projects and uh
and they were helping you even inadvertently not
not by design and there's a real kind of dignity and um
something beautiful about that
um
and perhaps those things come through
because they don't have the same expectations as a
sort of the you know the
the western mind the
the sort of
the way we would be expected to operate
culturally in this country
I think it's a double edged sword because the beautiful
there's a beautiful thing about acceptance
which is bigger in their culture than in ours
hmm
um the downside of that is like the caste system
where it's like people don't expect change
it's like so you just accept your lot and you don't
right so
part of what I wanted to show Indian people there
was that hey
this street child
who was on the streets is now being rehabilitated
they're now speaking perfect English to you
and some of them went on to
like become a famous photographer and a karate teacher
and I like
I wanted to break that idea
that people can't change and grow
as well
some time after you had worked in that project
you started to get involved in
I suppose in
in some of the practices
which would be more familiar with the work
that you do now yeah
um working with groups of people
understanding the relationships
the relational experience between them um
and the connection there maybe you could
talk to me more about the beginnings of
learning about those practices
yeah they yeah
cause I'd
I'd learnt to meditate and I was into coaching already
and I done a bit of therapy and I done
been to personal development workshops
and then I discovered these other practices
and they were more about connection
and about being present together with other people
so it was like where you're mindful by yourself
it would be can you extend that mindfulness
into a connection with another person
and when you're with them
and can we together be mindful of what it's like uh
being together and this topic um
seems to be less well explored
or certainly from my own perspective having
you know experience of meditation and
and actually mindfulness as a topic which is pretty
uh pretty mainstream
you know and
and lots and lots of people practice it
but
what you're talking about there seems a bit different
and maybe um
a bit off piste actually
it's not something that you hear so much about right
and and for me it
it stood out at the time as like
oh this is the next step
like this makes perfect sense
why would you do mindfulness just by yourself
on a cushion when you can
like nothing wrong with that
but why not do that like in the heat of the moment
in a connection with someone else
and the amount you can learn about yourself
when you start to do that with someone else and
and the profound experiences that can come maybe um
for our listeners
you could tell us about the first time you did that
then and
and and yeah what that was like yeah
it was I I did it with my best friend
who we now run the company together with
and we
we we just heard about by this time we hadn't uh
been to any formal workshops
but we just had heard about the practice and it
it made sense to us so we sat down to do it
and it initially involved eye contact
so we started doing that and at first we were like
felt so awkward and we're like
why do we have to do this
and then we started laughing
and the practice simply was like
pretty much look each other in the eye right
and only say something if it feels deeply meaningful
to speak
um so at first as I say it was awkwardness
laughter and then we kind of dropped in to something
and it was like oh
we suddenly like got super present
and then it started to almost get psychedelic
like it was like what
so then and we hadn't said anything then
but we were both smiling
cause we could feel we were both
experiencing this kind of like
almost altered state together
there was an energy between you
yeah yeah
and then amazing that yeah
and then we started to speak more
and then it just like places came from my intuition
it didn't really make sense at the time
but it helped Sean
suddenly have realizations from his past
from it that he had totally forgotten of like
oh my god
that thing happened to me and that
that's why this is happening to me now
and it was like a really profound realization for him
so you're also talking about um
tapping into a different way of communicating that's um
yeah off the beaten track
off grid people in
in our everyday lives don't have an appreciation of
yeah I mean it's
I think it's kind of innate to us all
like it's somehow we know it
but it's not it wasn't a norm and
and by the end of it we
we felt like
we felt like we had done amazing meditation
we felt like we had
had crazy realizations about ourselves
but then we also felt more connected
and we had this sense of like
oh connection
like it's a real visceral thing between us
and it's actually quite uh
pivotal like in relation to everything else
sounds like
it really changed your understanding of human
interactions it did
yeah
and it started to give us some keys of how we could
create that experience more and more
and what comes to mind for me is
you know that we hear about all the time
the mental health crisis
we see sort of mindfulness being plugged more and more
but we hear about people being isolated and feeling
you know digital isolation and being abstracted from
from the world and not feeling connected to people
um
why do you think people
crave the source of connections
that you offer them through uh
transformational connection today
what what is it that's
that's um
bringing people to do it and
and I'm not trying to prime your answer
cause I gave a couple of thoughts there
but I'm sure you'll be able to give me a much more
complete view yeah
I I think there's a
a number of reasons um
I think for me that for both of us
I think the initial pull was like
was that psychedelic feeling of like
hang on there's something more real
and it's like
life became more vivid or something of like
oh we need to listen to this
there's
um
even spiritual like experiences
or just what people call transpersonal experiences like
or psyched
now that psychedelics are kind of more mainstream
and their benefits it was like oh
we're experiencing different things that blow our minds
you know not every time
but just occasionally and that
that drew us
but then the other thing was like
this seems a more
powerful modality for creating
change within us than anything else we
had done
and yet paradoxically
when it's about our wholeness
we're not actually trying to change ourselves
we're not like a problem that needs to be fixed
to really get from a to B
like
we realize more of our innate wholeness through that
and we end up feeling more ourselves
and more connected with other people
and like a a genuine connection that
where there's a trust and where there's a sense of like
oh wow
we could we could create things together
or like there's a
a deep respect and even reverence at times
a reconnection with something that um
you or the other people participating what
what was not sure was there
and then yeah
and then find it exactly yeah
it's like it's like
in a way it's like coming home
but you didn't know you had left it
or it's it's not
it's innate to us but yeah
that I had
I just hadn't experienced that kind of togetherness
when we ask ourselves
why people are craving more connection
perhaps it's because there's a part of
a part of them that's not tapped into
yeah yeah
absolutely like
that's a an important signal
hmm of like hey
what's what's possible
hmm hmm
but connection is it's like
in a way it's our greatest desire
and the greatest opportunities are there but
but it also comes with fears
and yes
like
we can get hurt when we're more connected with people
and so it's it's tender territory
so you began this journey
you began to learn these practices you
you and your business partner
realised that there was something quite special there
and that's become a business
that's become an offering to
to other people which
so I've understood it so this started with small groups
but now transformational connection has become
something international as well
so yeah
um what's it been like to see these communities go from
you know small
kind of living room projects
into something that spans different country boundaries
now
yeah quite
quite incredible
like just you saying it now makes me kind of re
realize that cause it
cause at first it was just me and my friend
doing these things that weren't very well known
we'd do it in a house in Shrewsbury at the time
I remember like doing it together and thinking oh
this maybe is rubbish
and like it was a cold day in December
and we spent all day doing it
like why are we doing this
and then something right at the end just happened
and we were like this is why wow
this is why
because we ended up quitting at the tennis academy
in the parents in sport
like we had huge funding to like
take that coaching program for the parents
country wide across different sports
but we felt in these practices
there was actually something more potent
um so we took the risk to start an organization
and yeah it did
kind of spread like wildfire
and so is that an act of surrender
it's so we talked about surrender leadership
that was you had a
a good bit good business a good thing going on with
you know coaching uh
parents how to how to raise tennis stars
and you just shelved all of that
and followed something more intuitive
and so that was a an act of surrender yeah
it it was actually in an office not too far from here
I think the organisation was first sport I forget
but they had got as government funding
to basically take that parents coaching model
I was actually international and across sports goodness
because no other coaches had solved
what they would call as the parent problem
uh huh
parents are getting in the way of the athletes and yes
so we had a working solution to that
and they secure government funding
and we're in an office talking with them
and I felt myself going flat
as we were getting close to making
and it was really embarrassing
and I was like look
I'm I know this was the plan and I
but I'm gonna have to get back to you
I feel I just feel really flat and I don't know why
and when we went away we just said like yeah
we're gonna have to follow this other thread
and we had no idea if we could make a living from it
it was still early days with it
so it was a deep surrender
but it's it was like the universe responded
if we can explore just for a minute what you said there
which is that when this you know
someone was ready to write a big check
for your business you felt something inside go flat
and you made a different choice
I'd like to explore that a bit
because this is the point about embodiment
and listening to your body
and using that as part of the way that you lead
can we talk about that for a minute
yeah I don't think it was just the big check
but there was just something of like yeah
and I was just learning to kind of trust myself
more deeply on an embodied level yeah
in the past
I might have pushed through that and pushed over it
and I dared just be
just kind of like surrender to like oh
I feel flat yeah
and I don't know why and I'm sorry
because we're kind of here to sign
to sign the contract and yeah
I'm
I need to go away and everything looks great on paper
I've got no complaints about it
so yeah it did feel like a surrender of some kind
and like
then what happened with the kind of organization
almost setting on fire the next
the following years like growing very quickly
it felt like a kind of a
gift for taking that risk yeah
and within that you you
you you'd notice this kind of um
this difference between
what your rational mind was saying
about how to act in this situation
for your work and what your body was screaming
just no no no and um
and that's sort of part of uh
part of I think
the practice
we're gonna go on and talk about a bit more
and the work that you do now so um
what is it that um leaders need to be doing to and
and how are you helping leaders to sort of
listen more to their bodies
because having total alignment between
you know
heart and soul and mind and so on um
can take it to a different level as what you're saying
yeah yeah
because you're gonna connect more to what's truly
purposeful to you
you're gonna connect to what's truly
your genuine inspiration like in spirit
um
and that that is gonna fuel your work and it's gonna
yeah if you're a leader of other people
then obviously
your ability to inspire is critical to that
so it's the deeper connection you have to yourself
the more you can inspire others
simple as that that probably brings us on to
the leadership model that you've
that you've been working on
that you developed around this time
because you've been working with individuals
but also with businesses and
you have to tell me there's the five principles
is it the five principles
is it of um of uh
transformational connection or surrender leadership
mm hmm
yeah can work for both yeah
of those yeah
and um
maybe you could tell me what the five principles are
sure yeah
yeah well
the first one is
is a bit off the back of what I said of like trusting
learning to trust your experience
it's actually amazing
and I see this in workshops all the time
it's amazing how much we don't trust
things that are arising especially in our bodies
um
we don't realize the wisdom
that's maybe not immediately obvious
but learning to trust ourselves
even if later we kinda feel like
we kinda learn that that was wrong in some way
it's just worth going with who we actually are
and daring to step in to who we are
and the amount of wisdom that is within us like
like my intuition now
the things that I pick up from people
when I'm working with them
is unimaginable compared to how it used to be
and it's not that I didn't have that capacity
it's just that I wasn't using it
mm hmm I didn't
I didn't trust that I was very much a rational person
in my mind the whole time
so the more we can learn to trust ourselves
the more we can actually tap into our gifts
and serve each other this is
this what uh
people talk about trusting their gut instinct and yeah
and and
and and going with that I mean yeah yeah
yeah that's and
and there's complexities to it
because there's different centers
there's there's the gut
there's the heart there's mind
there's there's everywhere
like there's even in our legs
there's information about what's happening
and so the more we can integrate and not
and not against the mind as well
but the more we can integrate what's happening as in us
the more wisdom we have and that's the
one of the second principle is
staying with the level of sensation
so it's trying to pay attention to like you would in a
in a if you're being mindful
you're actually noticing what's alive in me now
like what what do I sense
what do I feel and trying to just pay attention to that
and include that in who we are yeah
the the next one is commitment to connection
mm hmm so it's how much can you honor yourself
but honor the other person and try and
like stay in with multiple truths
and then yeah
even beyond that like if you're in a group
like how much can you honor yourself and others
without making them wrong
without making yourself wrong and
and kind of holding the tension of connection
maybe more than you would normally do
and see where that takes you
could could you give me an example of that
cause it's the the first two I understood well
that one I can sort of I can get the edges of it
but I couldn't say I totally understood yeah
well that practice that me and my friend did initially
that was a bit of an example of like
can we lean into eye contact together
and actually stay with what happens in both of us
and speak speak to it
speak to it when it when it feels meaningful
so we're actually kind of staying
and trusting in the connection itself
more than we might do normally
and trusting that
that that will kind of inform us and shape us in it in
in good ways
obviously
we need boundaries and it's not doing that in any way
but for us it
it it kind of steers us into the potential that's there
in a connection into
you know we can
we can go directly into that
mm hmm um
rather than avoid so on the flip side that why do
why do people
um back away from these kind of um
connections if you're working in a team
you've got a leader uh
where does the dismissiveness come from or the
the choice to kind of step back from being open
being connected being vulnerable with
with with
with a colleague come from
yeah it's a good question
I mean I guess it's normally because
of what's being touched in us
starts to become too challenging for us
or we're scared of what might happen if we stay there
in the connection with the other person
maybe scared of what they might do
or scared of what we might do
and that's
there's this there is this deep
opportunity to enter into this space of
uh deeper connection
and that like
that's as me and my friend did it more together
like I would
I started to discover more anger in me towards him
and at first I was like like
I don't want to be angry with my friend
and
I realized
part of my reason for being in my head a lot was
cause I'm avoiding that anger
mm hmm
but as I Learned to bring it in a kind of skillful way
and he actually started getting angry with me
for not bringing my anger
and as I as I did it
it contained all kinds of clarity
it was actually super useful for him
what was in my anger and that
started me learning to trust
more of what was going on in me
so often by committing to the connection
we can even though we might have to face
some scary things on the way
like on the other side of that is often a lot of gold
because you know
society we've been taught anger bad
don't yeah
don't go there don't get angry with somebody
it's a
this idea of negative emotions and positive emotions
I think it's what you're touching on exactly yeah
and of course there's nuance
yeah with that
but that is a that is a
there's so much
power and clarity and aliveness in anger
if it's skillfully hmm
integrated and used to convey what it needs to convey
without that just kind of
uh uh
it's exploding yeah
yeah and
and that commitment to connection
is where you're honoring the other person
as well so it's in that way
you wouldn't it wouldn't be violent
it would be if there is anger
it would you know
you're it would be with eye contact
it would be with connection
it would be caring about how it's
how they're impacted by it yeah
bring it back to sport for a moment
what what comes to mind is watching some elite tennis
from time to time
and you can see where maybe a line call's been no
against somebody and they're really angry about it
and they turn that not into the shouting and bawling
but actually into some extraordinary tennis
it's that sort of channeling yeah
yeah and it
it actually reminds me of one of
when I applied this on the tennis court for myself
like it was actually after I would
like miss a really bad shot
I would typically just like hide yeah
from everyone there and what I learnt to do was like
oh no
I'm gonna use
even though this is a difficult place to connect
I would actually connect with the crowd
and say something like
well that wasn't the best shot
was it or yeah
something like that and that would keep me in flow
hmm hmm
cause it's that
that kind of acceptance and that connectivity and that
yeah that help me get over things quicker yes
cause you're acknowledging it and sort of
letting it out letting it out and
and actually staying in connection yeah yeah
so that's so we we
we we probably covered three of the principles now yeah
the fourth one is uh
being with the other in their world
and this is
this is less one that you would try and do all the time
but it's actually something we get people practicing
quite a lot in our workshops where yeah
we're with someone
and we're not trying to get anywhere with them
we're not trying to like coach them or something
we're actually just trying to be with
them in the moment where they are
and actually get deeply what it's like to be them
in the moment
and this
this is what struck me about these modalities is
having done a lot of coaching
where it's a to B this is about presence
it's about being with them in their world here and now
and and you know
someone might say like I'm a
I'm a little sad and then it would be well
what's the sadness like
is it more like grief or is it more like this
so you're not trying to fix them or advise them
this is empathy it's empathy
but it's also presence so it's like
I might let them know how I'm being impacted by them
like maybe oh
when when you say you feel sad
I actually feel something opening in me
I feel more connected with you
there's a there's a sincerity
and probably a vulnerability to being that way um which
if it happens anywhere normally would only
normally would only happen in sort of
you know very close relationships
and so bringing that openness to
a team or work colleagues is a big shift
yeah and it
it can be a real gift
one thing that this principle trains is
is our attention
just to notice the smaller things that can happen
between us so it could be that with a colleague
like we actually notice that they s
their body language shifted a little bit after what
what we said
in a way that wouldn't normally be noticed
and we and then we say oh
I I noticed that yeah
your your arms came in closer
what did was what happened
did was there something I said that upset you
and that kind of attention
I think all it's like a plant and water
it's like we all actually like attention that's open
and actually interested in
in what's there and spacious
and so when people can be this way together
what sort of um positives does that start to draw out
in that connection or the group
yeah well
that this
I had some really strong experiences with this
early on
when people were practicing being that way with me
and one of the one of them was in a uh
circle with eight people
and the leader was being that way with me and in
and kind of
leading the group into being that way with me
and I was feeling a bit of anxiety
and he started asking me about the anxiety
and normally anxiety
I that would kind of make me wanna hide
but there was something about like
starting to describe it that as I described it
it started to turn
like more from anxiety into excitement
and I was like wow
what is how can it's like alchemy started to happen
and then I started to get really passionate
and it was like oh
my anxiety is actually kind of my aliveness
that's just waiting in the background that I'm
and that
that was an opening for me with tennis as well of like
oh my
like in my anxiety is actually
it's kind of like fuel for something like
if I can open to this if I can connect from this
then wow
I can be and I would enter the flow state from that
a lot of the
emotions and feelings that were
taught to suppress or push down
like anxiety um
if they're given their space
actually can have a positive
positive impact and create better flow
better energy for the individual in the group
exactly and and learning that was a big thing
of learning to be like don't make my anxiety wrong
so if I was on the tennis court
and starting to feel nervous
when it's getting to a key point
my problem earlier was like oh
I'm getting nervous like oh
this is why can't I just be more relaxed
or so I'm in a negative spiral
whereas after that I was learning to be present to it
which was intense cause my
my whole body is fully adrenalized and it's not easy
but if I can stay present with it
then I would I did things on a court I couldn't imagine
yeah it was like
where did that where did that come from
yeah and I
and I also had a a circle similar to that where
someone kind of asked me like oh
it was at a time
just before we came out with this organisation
and I was a bit like oh
I don't I feel I've got something to offer
but I don't know how to bring it
and people just started
first of all
they started mirroring to me that they thought
they sensed a leader in me
and I was like what
and they kind of predicted what happened with
with this movement around the world
like there's me stepping into a leadership role and
taking it around the world essentially
and it felt like they started to pick up on this energy
before I could even sense it really
and and then one of them even said like
what have you got to offer
and at the time it was like
the most confronting question I could hear is like oh
in front of a group of people
I've got to try and say what I can
and I sure and
but what happened he was like smiling when he asked me
and it was like these qualities just arrived in me
I didn't think them up it was like
I started to feel love and connection with him
so I said oh
love and connection and then I started to feel like
this deep presence in the
in myself and I was like
oh presence and
mm hmm it was like these gifts arrived and
and it kind of felt sacred to me
like almost like a a ritual
like it felt like some kind of ancient ritual
but it was just
because we had started to really be present together
and and do these practices
to pay enough attention to each other and care
sounds from what I've heard
like it was very very much affirming for you and um
gave you courage and confidence
as these feelings kind of flowed
and yeah that
that wouldn't have happened without these practices
with this with this other person in particular
asking those questions
I've got one more example that this
this this wasn't
this was when I had started leading this practice
myself
of where we're being with the other in their world
and it was with a woman who had had a very tough life
um
and we were being with her
and we started to notice her kind of tone of voice
and then the way the way that she was breathing
was quite short and sharp
and we just reflected that back
not with like trying to make her breathe more deeply
we just said oh
it's is it a bit like this
like if I imagine breathing like that with that voice
it's like
it's like I'm trying to get out of something and she
she just like felt deeply seen
and that's what happens when we do this well
and then she just kind of
went silent for a 30 seconds to a minute
and then she started breathing deep relaxation breaths
and it was for the first time in her life that she had
she realized
she had always been in that kind of uptight thing
and obviously that's quite rare
she had a quite a traumatic history
but to see someone like breathing and we just
the whole group just stayed with her for like
five minutes as she's just breathing
and people just started crying
because we're realizing this is the first time she's
breathed in a way where she feels fully safe with
with other people
and so something really fundamental had shifted for her
right and the energy of the group helped her
exactly yeah
and by staying connected with her
that was a gift to her to help her on her journey right
yeah and yet we hadn't encouraged her to breathe more
yeah we were just being with her in her world yeah
I think there's probably one more
there is one more I was worried
I couldn't remember for a second
but I really like this one
it's called owning your experience
and this is about taking
responsibility for what it is that you're experiencing
and trying to not put it on others like
and trying to like what
what can you say is unarguably true
basically about your experience
so now I now if I do it it's
there's some heat in my face
there's a little bit of shakiness
uh
so if someone started to say no
that's not true it's like
I know I could feel it hmm
so
it's trying to communicate from that unarguable place
rather than like making assessments about other people
that could be argued it's like
and it this can be really powerful
if you're in an argument or something
and you feel yourself
and often it's something like fear
like oh
I'm notice the way you're speaking to me
I'm starting to feel fear now
and if you own that fully
it often completely diffuses conflict
and it feels like you're getting truth
like it's a like there's so many
it's not proper propositional
knowing that can be argued
it's like this is real embodied truth
and if more of us in the room can bring this in like
again like humans just not like
we can take it in
and we can update with this information
yes and if we can take responsibility
for what's going on in us
we can actually have really hard conversations
and them go well
I mean not there's always gonna be big human challenges
obviously but it's
it was an amazing tool for me of like oh
it's so easy for me to communicate in a subtly
passive aggressive way or
and this is a way to just bring it back to what's
what's owned in me yeah
because it's about you it's what you're experiencing
it's what you're feeling and so it's indisputable
and it's not putting anything onto somebody else
and making that their problem
their thing which yeah
they may have a totally different view
and be very unhappy about
and then you're inflaming a difficult situation
right as you bring these principles to a workplace
to a team or a boardroom you know um
what is it that what what can happen when
when when
when you bring these things to a
to a team in a workplace yeah
I think the best way I've seen it happen
when I work with a team of CEOs was
um who were working on a new project together
it was just as simple as wow
this has helped us connect in profound ways
and from that place our work just flows like this
you know it was a couple of hours over three days
mm hmm these
this level of connection that we've reached
just from doing a few hours with you
has allowed six months of like
really powerful work yeah
that's the best
sometimes it is gonna reveal like challenging tensions
things that sure may might not have
we might not have even known were there sure
but even then it still seems like
it's better to have that out in the open
so that we can re adjust and maybe make changes or
and what I'm thinking of right now is um
great sports teams you know
you you hear them come off the pitch afterwards
or whatever their sport is
I did that for my you know
for my for my team
mm hmm we've all got a connection on a deep level
and they're all doing those things together
um it's almost like
these things are sort of accepted norms
if you hear that from a professional sports team
or even probably I mean
I can remember it from my own sporting life various um
various groups I've been in teams and you just know
there's such a connection with this group of people
right now for the thing we're doing right
that is not a common thing in the workplace
it would be is my my observation
and I wonder why that is yeah
and I I think we would benefit from it
yeah and the more we have purpose driven organizations
the I mean
there are attempts at that
through defining the organization's purpose
but that also needs to be um
everyone needs to be involved in that
hmm in some way
hmm hmm
without the barriers and the hang UPS
and the things that get in the way of people expressing
um what's true and um
so often with those kind of projects
they become top down
these are gonna be the values of the company
this is the vision we are pursuing
but the we comes from yeah
a small group rather than the whole group
right and
and if you can get people who align
around something deeply meaningful
then watch out for that group
hmm and I think of the all blacks
like with the what yes
and they've actually done these practices
and some of them come from even indigenous cultures
like that but there's a history
yes ancestry
and then there's a level of connection that yes
I I think if that can be done authentically
if it's done in a fake way
it's mm hmm
these practices do support the kind of the
at least the opportunity for these things to emerge
like is there actually something deeply meaningful
between us like maybe there isn't
and then maybe
so maybe we should be doing different things
but maybe through going a bit deeper together
we actually realize like
actually we're super aligned on this thing
or it can be about more than the group
it becomes about the performance of a business
it can become about shareholder value
yeah and creating
you know something uh
something that's got longevity and um
you know a balance sheet to prove it
that all starts with a group of people connecting
exactly yeah
yeah there was one other thing I wanted to
to to
to talk to you about and it's
it's a link point actually because um
you know companies are all out for shareholder value
and we've just talked about how that authentic
connection can help create that all blacks environment
where where everyone's in it
and connected with the same energy and
and can can make great things happen
but another tactic um
which I know you've written about um
has been about having authenticity
and having kind of good business ethics
you spoken about you know
integrity and truth telling in
in leadership and in in marketing
could we sort of touch on that
cause it would be interesting to hear
sort of the flip side what happens when it
when it goes wrong and people start to um
choose to tell untruths or misrepresent their business
possibly cause they haven't got the
the the
the team all firing in the same direction
right you kind of
I'm imagining like marketing that's like I
I can see ways that companies can be successful by
doing manipulative marketing and um
but there's some sense of like
the organization that's deeply purpose driven
and deeply connected in the long term
I just think is gonna outcompete those things
like
when there's something that really captures people
and connects people
like if that's at the heart of your organization
I would just put money on that every time right
just being um
more successful through that authenticity
and that truth telling
not to say that businesses can't be successful
we've got proof that businesses can be successful
not going that route
and bringing more authenticity into your business
straight away could
lead to rocky things
uh potentially
I would say in the long run
it's better to have those things yeah
uh out in the open
but yeah I think the
the best businesses are ones where there's
there's a passionate purpose
and there's
deep connectivity between the people who are um
working in alignment with that purpose
and that just feels a lot more resilient
and in the long run
it's gonna not only do the most good in the world
but will will be profitable
well and your
and your story sort of testament to that
which is being drawn in the direction of creating deep
human connections and creating something that's a
you know
really successful so yeah
and I I was thinking about this anyway here
cause in some ways like I'm not
I like making good money I like entrepreneurial spirit
I have the freedom not to just be uh
motivated by that so in some ways
like I would make decisions
even if they might make less profit or something
because I'm doing it from a purpose point of view
but my experience is that if these things go well
then they're gonna make profit yes
so even the decisions I make that aren't from a
traditional profit making
they end up like giving things
I sometimes I wanna give things away
I genuinely wanna give things away free
not because it's a strategy yes
but like when I've done that
it's like then you get a load back
people want to
so I can feel like the forces at play that I mean
a good
a lot of good business does realize these things
and is already implementing these things
around purpose and communication
but there's something about having these things
right at the heart
and that's what we wanted to do with our organization
it's like
let's build this organization around this practice yes
like let's see where it takes us yes
we do need to pay the bills for sure
but yeah
we ended up making more money than we used to and yeah
having
in this incredible lifestyle of going around the world
and being on stages and working with amazing people
and having our minds blown by the practice
and humbled and challenged
and so if you take the lessons from what
from what you do and from what you
from what you teach
I suppose my last question for you is um
you know what
what do we as a well
community need to change at the moment
in the way leadership happens and um
what can we
what can we do to get it onto the right track
yeah I mean
I don't claim to have the answers to that
but I I know personally
I'm just very inspired by authenticity
by genuine human connection
that can be built in a way that lasts
and creates love and respect
but also that how that connection can lead to
as transforming as people
it seems like there's a win win of like
this connecting and transforming together
and that
that hopefully can like generate all kinds of things
like creativity can come out of that
that is beyond the sum of the parts
as well as like
how good it is just to be truthful and be connected
that's a great answer John
thank you so much for your time
thank you for being on the podcast
I've really enjoyed talking to you
and hearing your story pleasure
absolute pleasure thank you