Faith, Power, and Politics in America

In this episode of The Blue Dot Podcast, Natalie and Brian explore the persistent overlap between religion and politics, tracing how faith has shaped political movements from the Cold War to the rise of the Moral Majority and today’s debates around Christian nationalism. Despite the constitutional separation of church and state, religion continues to influence policy, identity, and partisan divides.

Joined by Reverend Lauren Jones Mayfield of the Center for Interfaith Relations, the conversation shifts to how faith can also be a force for unity and justice. She highlights how issues like inequality and civil rights are both moral and political, encouraging listeners to “pray with their feet” through action.

This conversation invites listeners to reflect on how faith influences their own civic engagement—and how a more inclusive, justice-centered approach to religion in politics could help bridge divides in an increasingly polarized world.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Blue Dot, Northern Kentucky's premier political podcast, brought to you by the Kent County Democratic Executive Committee. Welcome back to the Blue Dot, podcast where we explore the ideas, people, and conversations shaping our world. In today's environment, religion and faith have become intertwined with political disparity. So today we're diving into a topic that touches every corner of society faith, diversity, and the role they play in shaping our communities and political dialogue. Thanks so much for joining. I'm Natalie McDonald.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

And I'm Brian Cale. Despite that our Constitution, in its very First Amendment, establishes the principle of the separation of church and state, and that most people you talk to will say religion and politics don't mix, throughout our country's history instead, religion has quite often bled over into the political arena and vice versa. And today, especially with the rise of white Christian nationalism, I mean, we see religion and politics acting nearly interchangeably in the minds and actions of some Americans.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yeah, absolutely. And although religious groups have supported social causes since the nation's founding, the explicit and strategic use of religion and partisan politics grew significantly in the late 1970s and 80s. And that's when these conservative Christian leaders organized in response to cultural changes, and a movement that ultimately contributed to Ronald Reagan's election and the creation of the moral majority.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, right. And even before that, the Cold War era of the 50s brought out fear of quote godless communism and the federal government actively promoting a civil religion. This is the period in which we saw the phrase under God added to the Pledge of Allegiance, as well as the adoption of In God We Trust as the national motto.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Yeah, and I think maybe a lot of people didn't know when that was in introduced into, I guess, our national stage. And I think it's always been kind of bubbling below the surface, but the rise of the religious right really took off with the, again, the moral majority, which was led by televangelist Jerry Falwell, and it became a prominent American political organization which was established to mobilize Christian conservative voters into the political process. You know, they gained a lot of power by being against the Roe v. Wade decision that had just come out, the Equal Rights Amendment, feminism, school prayer bans, and the push to decriminalize homosexuality. So this pivot pretty much cement that the bond between Christian conservative values and the Republican Party.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Yeah, and that presents us with the challenge, or maybe more precisely, the conflict, of a political party subscribing so closely to the beliefs and values of a single religion in a nation that also purports in one of its founding documents, and as well as a constitutional amendment, that all men are created equal. That is, regardless of your religious beliefs and practice or the lack thereof, you hold the same rights as a follower of the preferred religion of a political party. You know, that sounds like the recipe for a lot of discord and division to me. And from a legal perspective, in addition, the Johnson Amendment, ratified in 1954, prohibited churches and other nonprofit organizations from participating in or intervening in political campaigns, either for or against any candidate for public office, or else they risk their tax-exempt status.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah, and if you remember during Trump's first term, he vowed to destroy the Johnson Amendment because he is such a Christian man, right? And last year the IRS found a loophole to that by comparing religious institutions' endorsement of candidates to be nothing more than just a family discussion with their congregants. So rather than it being true endorsements, so the spirit of the law remains, but we're starting to really slide down this slippery, slippery slope, Brian.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

That is right. But regardless of how slippery this slope gets, the First Amendment establishes two distinct foundational rights. The Establishment Clause, it prevents the government from establishing a national religion, endorsing a particular faith, or favoring any religion over non-religion. Basically, it keeps religion out of government. The free exercise clause is the second foundational right. It protects individuals from government interference in the practice of their faith, allowing them to hold any beliefs or no beliefs at all. It acts to keep the government out of your religion.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Right. So keep the religion out of government and government out of your religion, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Separation of church and state. We're right back to the right back to the basic.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Never let a preacher tell you how to vote, never let a politician tell you how to pray. That's my that's my motto.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

It's just a fascinating topic and it's a timely one. And we've seen local candidates target it for some time now through the politicization and weaponization of religion, making it all the more important to engage in thoughtful discussions. So I think we've framed these conversations through the lens of social, environmental, and economic justice and recognizing that democratic values is the foundation of that. I think it'll really help ground the issue and the principles that really affect us all.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Lucky for us and our listeners, we have a fantastic guest to discuss all of these issues with. We are joined by Reverend Lauren Jones Mayfield. Lauren is a nationally recognized interfaith leader, ordained minister, and advocate for social justice. She currently serves as the executive director of the Center for Interfaith Relations, where she works to foster collaboration across diverse religious traditions. Her work focuses on building bridges, cultivating dialogue, and mobilizing faith communities toward collective action. Lauren, welcome to the Blue Dot Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

Thank you. I'm so glad to be with you all today.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Excited to have you.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Thanks so much for joining. It's truly an honor to have you to the podcast. So to start, I'd love to hand it over to you. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and the work of the Center for Interfaith Alliance?

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Sure. So I have been the executive director here for about 18 months, and it's been a whirlwind of beauty and goodness and hardship, too, as we are trying to pay attention to what's going on in the world and in the country and here in the state of Kentucky. Prior to being the executive director, like Brian said, I was a pastor for many years here in Louisville, Kentucky, in progressive Christian spaces, but also have served many churches around the country in Los Angeles and New York City, Connecticut. So it's I grew up in northern Kentucky. So when my family and I moved here back to Kentucky, it was a little bit of a homecoming. So that's been really beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

So I'm just curious because we're obviously northern Kentucky. What city were you from up here?

SPEAKER_03 7:08

I was in born and raised in Fort Thomas. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

That's right where I'm sitting.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Really?

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah. Another cake eater. Yeah. Glad to have you. How about it? Small world, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it is a small world for sure. Uh well, it's great to have you. And before we dig deep into an issues-based discussion, let's zoom out for a moment and look at the bigger picture, which could be scary. When we talk about faith and diversity, how do those two things come together to foster social justice and community activism?

SPEAKER_03 7:42

I think when we're paying attention to the world around us, and we can get out of our myopic view, our myopic narrow vision of how we think everybody should be or how everybody behaves, we start to meet people who are different than us. And we meet people with all of the diversity that Kentucky and folks in the Commonwealth have to offer to their communities, and we get to hear stories that differ from our own. And in that difference, we are exposed to plights that are different than our own, joys that are different than our own, and realities that are different than our own in ways that those of us with certain levels of privilege might not always have awareness of. So I think this celebration of difference can really foster a sense of justice and common action because it serves as a rallying cry. What's true for me and my experiences, and what's true for my neighbor and their experiences, especially when those two things are different and don't necessarily align, we are awakened to opportunities to participate in equity and sustainability and to know one another better and more fully. It's a leaning in to the difference rather than a shutting out of it and a fear from it.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

I I like the way you said that leaning into it. And I feel like when we have um when we have more diverse friends, when we have more diverse colleagues, we excel. I mean, there's just no doubt about it. Right. So there's also been I I lately, as you know, in the political discourse in our country, trying to narrow the the focus of diversity and trying to try to say that this isn't important and that's not what what makes us so much better. So how do you combat that? Is it just through talking and dialogue?

SPEAKER_03 9:42

I think that's a good starting point. I think we live in such segregated ways and we live so far away from difference that it can even the dialogue can be hard because to dialogue you have to be in proximity to people. And so that's why I value the work of organizations like the Center for Interfaith Relations, because they provide opportunity to come together in ways that aren't necessarily organic, uh, when we're just going to work every day and going home to our neighborhood or going to our civic group or our house of worship, and we are surrounded so often with like-minded people. I think it's a and another example of the polarization that's happening across the country between conservatives and progressives and right and left and uh people uh with certain level of financial comfort versus folks who don't have that level of financial comfort. And these polarities, this chasm in between is getting harder and harder to cross in ways that are respectful and open, and again, not leaning into the difference.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, it's it's hard to find those opportunities um to get together with others in your community, get outside your comfort zone a little bit. Um, festivals are a great, great way. I I've seen it in all of the uh um activism and demonstrations that uh we've participated in over the last year or so. You know, we've had plenty of reasons to get out in the streets and and make some noise, and you see people of all classes and colors and stripes and beliefs and backgrounds all coming together for a common purpose. And there's a lot of joy and celebration in those demonstrations as well as some frustration and anger as well, and that's been kind of something that I feel like has actually made me feel closer to my community in northern Kentucky and the Cincinnati area. And just recently, of course, the New York Knicks and winning the championship and what's going on there and and the Obamas opening their presidential center and the diversity that was on display there. And I think more opportunities like that could could you know help us to open up to others in our community and and and understand and engage and and help them in their plights and also share our fears and frustrations with them as well.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

I think that's a really great point. It's the idea of serving together, marching together, rallying together, cheering, being fans together. It's it has a way that transcends just the individual or the small group, but it's this uh collective effervescence that like unites us, regardless of who we are as individuals, but also celebratory of who we are as individuals that make the collective so unique and exciting. The MBA and the Knicks is a great example.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah, that's amazing. My m my one of my sons lives in New York, so and they had the parade right side outside of his office building. So he was shooting pictures. He actually has a picture of Mam Dani, you know, Mayor uh Zaron Mam Dani taking a picture of uh Jalen Brunson with the trophy right outside of his office window. He was just Oh, that's incredible. But he said the whole city is just alive. It's it's like he feels like there's been this sea change since that happened, and it goes way beyond just, hey, our team won a sports championship.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

It's a it's a drawing together that a place like New York City has needed for a long time. And here it is. Right. And so you are out in the streets celebrating. Even here in Louisville during the World Cup, they're airing lots of the World Cup games in public spaces so that we can come together. It's fun and important and necessary to come together in these good ways that that unite us.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

But unfortunately, there is a lot of tension yet. Then especially when it comes to faith in politics, and it's kind of disheartening to see how faith has been used as a weapon sometimes. So I don't know if you have any views on how religious communities can engage a little bit in the political spirit, but yet still be able to promote ethical change and and not have it become divisive.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

I think this is a really great, really on-point question because I often hear people of faith saying, and especially progressive Christians who are otherwise outside their house of worship or their church, very politically engaged people. But then when they walk through the doors to the sanctuary or the synagogue or the mosque, I often hear let's not get political. Let's not make what is sacred and spiritual a civic social issue. And I think this comes from a point of privilege, that when we are acting out of our privilege as if we have the opportunity for something to not be political is a little bit misguided. That when you are working to put bread on the table and two jobs, and you get a flat tire on the way to work and can't get there, that's political. That folks in Louisville live in food deserts and public transportation is not what it needs to be and the work is not sustaining. So I often I love this question because it's how does how do all of us lean in together into the option that says everything is political and let's not shy away from that. Let's be honest about it. Let's from my tradition, right? Like Jesus was incredibly political. He was that's why he was often hiding from the empire or state authorities in in ancient Rome. And so I think we have so much to learn from one another on when to step that things are political, even when we're not ready to. A famous rabbi, uh Abraham Joshua Heschel, was very active during the civil rights era and actually marched with Dr. Martin Luther King on several occasions. And at one point in one of the marches, he had gone back to his home and reporters and journalists asked him, Yeah, but did you stop and pray? And he kind of looked at him askew and he said, We prayed with our feet. In other words, like our marching was our prayer for justice. And so in that way, isn't that beautiful?

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Like Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

It's such a great image of how these two things, like the sacred and the secular, are much more merged than we often realize.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah, I I was struck when you said once you enter your place of worship, all of a sudden let's not get political, but that totally works against what you need for social justice. Social justice is a political act. I mean, of course, I'm not an expert on it, but to me, uh it's it's how do you define politics? I think if you talk to most people, political is Democrat versus Republican. It's political parties, but politics is actually much more than that and involved in so much in our everyday lives and every decision we make and and how we treat others.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Absolutely. Absolutely. It brings to mind another example of a contemporary prophet. Her name is Valerie Korr, and she is Sikh I S-I-K-H, Sikh American, and a civil rights activist and a spiritual leader, and got her start by traveling the country in the aftermath of September 11th when there were so many hate crimes against the Muslim population, and folks didn't know the and still often don't know the difference between what it means to be Muslim and what it means to be sick. And so the sick population became the target of a lot of hate crimes as well. And she tours around through her work, her project is called the Revolutionary Love Tour. And one of her main ideas is that if you think that religion if you are a non-religious person and you think that you can be unaffected by religion, that that is a misconception. That because we are together, because we are American citizens, because we are fill in the blank of your point of identity, we are by default in relationship with folks who are religious and struggling and striving for political understanding and freedom. And so showing up as a citizen is to be political and religious. It's an interesting argument.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

So many great points. Sorry, Brian.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

No, that's great. Um go ahead, Natalie.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

No, and I one one of the things I was gonna ask you is do you think then that faith communities have a responsibility to speak on political issues? And I think you already covered that. And like you said, we we pray with our feet. That is gonna stick with me. I can't even tell you. I can't that just really hit home. That really hit home and that was that was amazing. I I think that more and more faith leaders are beginning to speak out. At least that's what we see, like you said, Brian, a little earlier with with the Pope, not really speaking out specifically, but really just saying this is why um we are against war. This is why I am we are for love and diversity and equality. And I just think it's it's really important. So if more religious leaders had the courage to do that, it would help and maybe inspire people to get out there and vote or pray with their feet.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

It's very interesting to me when the you know because my wife Laura, again, uh very involved in the Catholic Church and just was so excited when the Pope came out with that and is encyclical as well on AI, which is a whole nother topic.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

It is.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

But it was like this is just fundamental, but it it sounds revolutionary because it's coming out now. So it was it's very it's very refreshing.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

I think so too. And I think it it's an invitation for religious leaders and people who practice their faith and through ritual or through coming together to step into this moment with the non-negotiables in the values and the ethics of their religious practice because it does sound so countercultural and revolutionary today when really it's it's kind of the bedrock of all of our world religions is this idea of like treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated. Absolutely. That's in in the decay of civil discourse that we are experiencing right now. That that notion to treat someone as you would want to be treated is almost anathema now. When really it's okay. Where we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

If we could just follow the golden rule, just think of how many problems would be solved, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yep. Yep. And it's not only in our own backyards and with our with our neighbors, we also have all of these urgent global challenges as well. So we have climate change and growing inequality throughout the world. It inequality's always been there, but we have the climate change. So I don't know if it if there's any way for faith communities to really respond to these issues as well, um, on more of a global perspective than. And that goes beyond just our neighbors and and those in our in our churches and synagogues.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

I think it's really important to when we're talking about global issues and phenomenon, especially from a negative perspective of the depletion of the ozone layer, for example, or the microplastics within our gut biome, or how do we show up and respond to when we're at the Starbucks drive-thru and they ask us if we want a plastic straw? That I it's so easy to think, well, the straw, if I reject the plastic straw for my iced tea, that's not going to save the world, or that's not going to save the ozone, or that's not going to save the sea turtles. And yet I want to push back against that mentality and say, actually, that's exactly what does have the power to change the world. That things start small, that that's a grain of yeast or a mustard seed in the New Testament. It's the idea that things that are so small, like a mustard seed that you can barely even hold it in the palm of your hand for any length of time because it just you lose sight of it. That's all it takes to start a movement. That when revolutionaries who reflect back on their life work or profits who will tell stories of participating in global movements, it didn't start on that scale. It started with what was theirs to do in front of them that particular day. And so I think it's really important for us when we're talking about inequities and injustices to ask that question, what is ours to do? And then to pause and listen, listen to the answer, listen to folks in the community who are already doing the work so that we don't show up and champion an effort that's already been underway for decades. It's important to listen to that still small voice within us that is that inner light that many folks call it the core, the courage, our heart, our guiding principles, our north stars, our imago day, the image of God that lives within us. When we can stop and say, what is ours to do and listen to the community around us and listen to those guiding principles within us? I think a path becomes clear that is doable. That is saying, no, I don't need a straw, or sure, I'll take a straw today, but I've got a silicone one in my bag, right? Just as a really like micro example of these really complex issues.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

I'm really glad you brought that up because I was looking at your website and and the guiding principle I I love compassion for our community, ourselves, and the earth. And I wanted to make sure to bring up the earth part of it as you know, as one of those sacred beings that's that's important in the world. I mean, you're right, those those just those small steps can mean so much. Because if we if we all do it, if everybody would do just a single small step, how large would that step be?

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Absolutely. Look at the target boycotts, right? Within the great example. Here's this the hemoth organization that people are devotees to, and in in the uprising of all that needs to be pushed back against on corporate personhood and target as an example. They saw a decrease in sales when the communities rallied and said, okay, we're not doing this anymore.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah, there's been a lot of great examples of people banding together and pushing back, and that's actually made changes in the political spectrum and the commercial spectrum across the board. And again, that's just like as we've been discussing, that's one individual saying, What can I do? But if those individuals come together and find that common purpose, we can do anything. We can we can achieve what we all want to achieve.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

I believe that. I really do.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

So tell us a little bit more about exactly what the Center for Interfaith Relations does and promoting these ideas. I know you have a lot of events that go on and uh and other opportunities for people to get involved.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah, thanks so much for asking that. So obviously, our marquee event is the Festival of Faith. This is going to be our 30th year. It started in 1996, and it's an opportunity for people from it's an international event. It's people from literally London and Jerusalem and uh throughout the United States are coming to Louisville, Kentucky this November. It's November 11th through 13th. And we are talking this year about sacred courage. We're trying to pay attention to what's going on in the world around us and how do we show up fully ourselves with the bravery that is required to be yourself in the midst of all of these pluck complexities and these isms. Um, how do we stand for justice? How do we embody bravery that's rooted in purpose? How do we lead with radical love? These are the questions that we are asking at the Center for Interfaith Relations. And so it's not just the Festival of Faith, which everyone is invited to. You can log on to our website, festival offace.org, and learn more about it. But we also have a series with our local art museum, the Speed Cinema, about film. It's called Faith on Film, and we show a devotional cinema opportunity once a month, and it's open to the public and it's hosted um again by CIR and the Speed, and we have panel conversations afterward. We have our own podcast called Holy Echoes. Holy Echoes is a podcast that we started last summer. It's an opportunity for folks who have been on the stage before at the Festival of Faith to we listen to a truth or an idea that they put forth while they were on the stage, and then a contemporary spiritual leader will respond and be in dialogues, hence the name Holy Echoes, then and now conversations. And then lastly, the last thing I'll mention is a new program that we're working on getting off the ground called Holy Ground. And it's for spiritual care providers, faith leaders, chaplains, folks who work in the Louisville metro area to come together for the sole purpose of knowing one another. There's no agenda other than to spend time together and to cultivate our togetherness so that not if, I guess, but when the next crisis happens, we'll be galvanized because we're already in relationship with one another. We already know what our neighbors are up to and we can amplify and celebrate that.

unknown 29:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Looks like we're gonna have to make a road trip, Brian.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I was checking out the festival. Yeah, I was checking out the festival of faith, you know, when I was researching for this, and I thought, man, I had not heard of this. It's really exciting. I just a quick aside, way back in the day, I took a religion class at uh Thomas More College and Sister Jane Steer, she was fantastic, and it was Eastern religions, or I can't remember religions of the world, but it was many paths to one God, and she was a Catholic nun. Of course, she did put in a little quick pitch for Catholicism in there as well. But just the way she said that and the way she taught the course, just uh I just really started to see spirituality as such a a global common thing, and there's so many common themes throughout. It was very enlightening to me, and I've I've never really forgotten some of those lessons. And what you're talking about right here just reinforces that and is is like an embodiment of that. I I love it.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Yeah, that's it's powerful, isn't it? And one of the things I think I'll add to that is when we learn how to, even in the face of fear, uh right, because it can be scary to to be someplace that you're not used to be. So, like if you're going into a house of worship that's different from your own, when do I sit? When do I stand? When do I pray? When do I sing? When do I let the religious leader do that? What if I make a mistake? It's scary. And so, one just to name that, like we don't have to ignore the fact that this is complicated. And so with the power of going with groups and standing in solidarity with other folks who are having new experiences at the same time, I think can really help us lean in with wonder. And I this is I'll trace back to Valerie Corrigan because she's been such an influence to me in this way on this idea of wonder that listening to a disagreement or listening to someone's argument who is making a point that's in contradiction to your own does not grant that side legitimacy. Instead, it grants them their dignity and their humanity. So how do we really listen to one another even when we're scared to learn? It's it's revolutionary right now. And it doesn't need to be. It's not it's not new.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Wow, it's very powerful. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Is the festival in Louisville every year? It is. It's jumped around on the calendar, but right now it's pretty much consistently the second week of November, and we have it at the Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts this year, although the venue is subject to change year to year.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Amazing. So glad you do that.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Sounds great. Sounds great. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

No, I was I was gonna say, should should we do a lightning round with her as we do another one?

SPEAKER_00 32:09

I don't know. That's up to Reverend Dr. Mayfield, Lauren. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Sure, let's do it. All right, just five quick questions. Lightning round questions. Alrighty. So the first one is um what a place in the world that inspires your faith or your perspective?

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Dhaka Bangladesh. There's it's a beautiful meeting of Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian people who are in this densely populated, concentrated area living life together. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

I'm not familiar with that. What we should all aspire to in a in a microcosm. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Absolutely. All right. Is there one book that you always recommend to others?

SPEAKER_03 32:55

So I am obsessed with our local bookstore and buying books. And I'm better at buying them than I am reading them, but I uh I am always reading a book or carrying one around in my bag.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, same here. That's me.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

One that I love to recommend is The Book of Delights by Ross Gay, because I think he inspires us to be intentional about our joy and celebration.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Put that on the list.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Jot that one down for sure.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

This one's a little more fun. Are you a sunrise person or a sunset person?

SPEAKER_03 33:29

I love the sunrise, but unfortunately, I'm never awake for it. So I will answer sunset. There's something about being on the beach on the coast with a glass of wine, enjoying the sunset. It's absolutely serene and something that everybody should get to experience.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

I am with you. Yeah. I and I love that. I love yeah, I love sunrises, but I love that you said that you're never up to see one because I'm retired and that's one of my you know little secret joys in life is sleeping in a little bit. So I don't see them very often myself.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

It's a gift.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

That's right, totally.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

All right, this one was a little bit of a changeup, but if you could if you could meet one faith leader in history, and I know that's extraordinarily hard, who would it be?

SPEAKER_03 34:15

I think I would want to No, I I love this question. I would want to meet someone who worked with one of the premier leaders. So I'm I immediately like thought, oh, I'd love to meet Gandhi, but I would also love to meet people who lived and worked with Gandhi to see what he was really like and then the consistency of his character and his teachings and his prophecies.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

It's a little peek behind the curtain.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

Yeah, I thought about that perspective, but there you go.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

All right. And then finally, we like to we like to end on a on a good note with our podcast with everything that's going on in the world. What gives you hope right now?

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Find hope in the little things to kind of come full circle on the conversation that we've been having. Big questions without cliche answers, big questions maybe that don't have answers, and people who ask the questions who are also liberated enough to say, I'm not going to give you some patronizing or pat answer here. Let's stay in the mystery, let's wonder together, let's um see again what is ours to do and lean in to listen to see what might rise to the surface so that we are equipped to fight for justice, to stand in equity and love and compassion.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Never quit seeking.

SPEAKER_03 35:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Thank you. You you gave me note.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Thanks, Natalie.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Well, Reverend Lauren Jones Mayfield, thank you so much for joining us. And I mean for the incredible work you're doing uh to build bridges and foster understanding in meaningful ways. Uh, it's just such a pleasure to have you and and learn more about you as well as the Interfaith Organization. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Thanks to both of you, Brian and Natalie.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

It's been lovely to be with you today. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to the Blue Dot. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to share it with someone and keep the dialogue going. And don't forget you can join the conversation at our Facebook and Instagram pages or at Blue Dot Podcast.com. And if you like listening to the podcast, consider donating to help fund it, which you can do by clicking on the donate link at Blue Dot Podcast.com. Until next time, stay curious, keep the facts in focus and never stop fighting for what matters. Peace out, everybody.