Alberta Teachers vs. The Notwithstanding Clause

What happens when a government that calls itself the champion of freedom uses its strongest legal tool against its own teachers? 

Carlin Lutzer reconnects with Alberta Teachers Association representative David Tait to unpack life after Bill 2 and the forced end to the province wide teacher strike. 

David explains how the government used the notwithstanding clause to impose a mediator recommended contract, end both central and local strikes, and attach heavy fines to almost any form of future job action, even as it begins to adopt ATA language around class size and complexity. 

He explains what teachers were really fighting for, why wages were never the main issue, and how years of underfunding and underbuilding schools collided with a dramatic influx of new students.

Along the way, Carlin and David tackle myths about the ATA being a partisan player, explore the mood inside Alberta classrooms now that staff are back at work, and end with a clear call for parents and community members to keep pressing government for real investment so excellent teachers are free to be excellent with Alberta kids.
 
Listen For

1:03 How did Bill 2 force teachers back into classrooms?
6:00 Why were wages never the main issue for Alberta teachers?
11:50 What does the three year imposed contract really mean for schools?
16:53 Did immigration actually cause Alberta classroom chaos?
23:24 How can parents and communities keep the pressure on for real change?
 

Connect with guest: David Tait

LinkedIn | Alberta Teachers’ Association Foothills Local 16

 Connect with Carlin

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Transcript

Announcer (00:00):

You found the Okotoks podcast sponsored by Carlin Lutzer Real Estate. No refund. If you laugh too hard.

Carlin Lutzer (00:18):

Welcome back to the Okotoks podcast. I'm your host, Carlin Lutzer. Today we're diving into a topic that affects every family, every classroom, and every community in Alberta public education, and more specifically, the realities behind the Alberta Teachers Association, the A TA. There's no shortage of political narratives swirling around the A TA, depending on who you listen to. It's either a politically motivated machine or the backbone of educational excellence in our province. But what's the truth and how much of that truth lies in the history we've forgotten? In this episode, we talk with David Tait, and he dives into a little bit of history with EATA, with Bill Eberhart, who helped create an association strong enough to protect Alberta teachers and the quality of education across the province, all the way to mandatory membership model that was built to strengthen the public education. We'll unpack misconceptions, look at the a's longstanding mission and talk about whether the organization is being unfairly painted through a modern political lens. And at its core, the A TA remains unapologetic about one thing, doing its absolute level best to make sure Alberta maintains one of the best education systems in the world. Well, David, thank you so much for joining me again today. I

David Tait (01:43):

Appreciate the invite as always.

Carlin Lutzer (01:45):

Yeah. Now, the last time that we met was August 17th, and I honestly felt that this wasn't going to be a major issue with the teachers and the government, and that by, okay, maybe I was expecting a little bit, maybe a week long strike or something, and then we kind of figured out and then everybody would go along their merry way. Obviously that has not happened. We have gone through a lot of interesting things since August the 17th, and we really, in theory, we're not any further ahead. In fact, it feels like we're maybe a little bit behind

David Tait (02:29):

Feels that way. I'd suggest that we have moved forward.

Carlin Lutzer (02:35):

Okay. Really

David Tait (02:38):

Well, so teachers didn't have a contract before. It's not the way that they wanted to get to a contract bill two is passed in the legislature in the early mornings of, I wrote it down here, October 27th, right. 2:00 AM And yeah, that imposed or placed, the mediator's recommended settlement on teachers and got us back into the classrooms. Since then, the government has announced that they're going to track classroom sizes and then just today the Alberta Government's Cabinet Committee on Complexity. So government's using our language government is doing what the public said that they should have put in the contract, in the collective agreement, how they're going about it. I don't think anybody was looking for it, the notwithstanding clause, but the reason they've done that is to really limit local bargaining with school divisions for sure.

Carlin Lutzer (03:54):

So you feel that there has been some positive things? That's something that I haven't really heard about when I've been talking to teachers in the news and stuff. It just feels like, obviously with the government taking the not withstanding measures has really, I feel it has deflated teachers a little bit with the route that the government has chosen to go

David Tait (04:22):

When you're the government of freedom and you remove people's freedoms. Like 51,000 teachers we're forced back into the classrooms without any meaningful improvements at the time. But again, we're seeing the government use our language, we're seeing the government being moved by pressure that community members put on them. So again, like I said, it's not the way that we were wanting to get to this outcome, but

Carlin Lutzer (05:02):

Here we are. But it feels like you're getting there. Just help me understand, I'm kind of jumping around. I did send you a list of questions, but I'm jumping around here a little

David Tait (05:13):

Bit

Carlin Lutzer (05:15):

With the 12% wage increase over 40 years. The other things, if everything else checked off, do you think the teachers would've accepted the 12% increase and kind of moved ahead, or we're still, I know that there's other fundings because we're talking about 2 billion that the government's going to be spending above and beyond what they offered you, what you guys are looking for. But I know it's not just the wages, but if every box was checked off, classroom sizes, teacher's aides help inside of the classroom and stuff like that, and maybe you can't answer that, but I guess what I'm trying to find out is how much is wages actually at the issue here?

David Tait (06:16):

Well, to be clear, our wage ask was significant, and then the government made it clear that they were not going to move off that 12%. And teachers brought forward, I know our bargaining committee brought forward a number of different structures, different ways to try to address it, but they made it clear that they weren't moving forward on it. The big ask that teachers had was to address class size and complexity. And when we hear the premier talk about their enhanced mediation, Jason Schilling, the president, the A TA, said that enhanced mediation removed any ability to talk about complexity. They took it off the table. There wasn't really anything to talk about through their enhanced mediation because complexity and class size was the main point that was hanging those hanging negotiations up

Carlin Lutzer (07:26):

For sure. And

David Tait (07:26):

The teachers released a comprehensive plan and how to get class sizes under control, and it was measured. It wasn't like you want class sizes of 13 starting tomorrow. It was a three year plan that made a lot of sense. I'm super curious to see if we are going to see that plan in their new cabinet committee.

Carlin Lutzer (07:58):

So now going forward, when a government invokes the notwithstanding, it remains in effect for up to five years now. What has the government told the A TA in regards to negotiations and bargaining and all that stuff? Is it moving forward or is it just this is the way it is now?

David Tait (08:22):

Yeah, so Nick ladies made the comment, minister Nick ladies made the comment that because teacher bargaining is two tiered, so there's a central table and then a local table. They didn't want to end the central table negotiations and then have essentially rolling strikes by teaching by teacher locals at the local table. And we saw a number of locals that were in a strike position during the last round. So by using the notwithstanding clause, they strip teachers rights to strike at the local table as well as ending the strike and the lockout that was at the central table. So teachers rejected an offer twice, and the government looked at it and said, no, it's good enough. And here we are.

Carlin Lutzer (09:21):

Right. Okay. So with all this, obviously there's a lot of misinformation. There's stuff flying around. There's already, there's stuff that you're enlightening me because I, for whatever reason, assume that somehow negotiations were going to continue because the A TA and the Alberta government aren't happy with each other, and we're trying to figure out, I just assume that, okay, we're going to go back to work. In your mind, let's say they never agreed to anything, but somehow, how do you think the government should have went about getting you guys back to work? Because I think there's certain people that are upset with the process that the Alberta government took in implementing the notwithstanding. There was certain ways to go about it. Did the Alberta, Alberta government go about it this way to avoid any other debate, anything in ledge legislature to force you back to work?

David Tait (10:34):

I think they came to an impasse, and this was the tool that they chose to use. Other news outlets have pointed out that there was multiple ways they could have put teachers into binding arbitration. They could have legislated us back with a special session. Instead, they chose to use the notwithstanding. And again, I think that's two pieces to end the central table strike and then to prevent end local strikes as well. So I'm not in the UCP caucus, so I don't know. I know that we've been hearing loud and clear from community members. Those recall petitions just we're worth community voices heard were community voices brought forward by their MLAs. But again, those are questions that I don't have the answers to. All I know is that we're back at school. There's legislation that now determines what teachers do for the next three years.

Carlin Lutzer (11:47):

Sorry, what do you mean three years legislation that determines because this contract, the teachers, this imposed contract upon the teachers is for three years, is that what you're saying?

David Tait (12:00):

Yeah. Yeah. It goes to 2028. So all of the fines, all of the restrictions, everything that exists within that legislation, that law is in force for the next three years. So fines for any type of illegal job action, those fines are stacked on labor relation board fines. So I mean, it's a heavy, heavy hammer. And really the notwithstanding doesn't allow teachers recourse. So the A TA is looking to see if they can get an injunction put in place. That was the announcement yesterday. And then there's more legal pieces that they're going to take on. And the commentary is that if the government can do this with one union, what's to stop them from doing it with another? Right. We have our LPN groups now in a legal strike position. They're going back to the bargaining table. So I'm curious to see what the outcome of those negotiations are.

Carlin Lutzer (13:14):

For sure. So in your opinion, what are the biggest mistold stories in local media or social media as to what's going on in this dispute?

David Tait (13:26):

Well, right now that Dana, this is all politically motivated that the A TA is somehow stumping for the NDP. We're not the A TA was created by Bible Bill Eberhart. So William Eberhart, who was the premier of Alberta for close to 40 years, created mandatory membership in the association to promote and preserve public education in Alberta. So we are doing our absolute level best to make sure that our education is the best, not only in Canada, but one of the best education systems in the world. And they're unapologetic about that. The A encourages members to be politically active in whatever political party they choose. When I'm up in meetings in Edmonton, we get thoughts and opinions all across the political spectrum, but the focus of the group is how do we improve education for our students in this province? How do we strengthen publicly funded education? How do we build up our schools so that they are strong and resilient

Carlin Lutzer (15:00):

Just inside of classroom sizes? And no doubt, this was a storm that somebody somewhere must have seen coming with classroom sizes and the complexities inside of classroom sizes. Just hearing the stats, and actually I just listened to the announcement of the Alberta government this afternoon, and some of the things that they were saying is 2022, we had comfortable growth and they were speaking specifically to new Canadian growth, new to Canada immigrants in 2023. Some school boards were actually starting to shutter down a little bit. They were trying to reduce their school size, and I know that that depends on funding and all that thing, that kind of thing. But then 2024 came and we saw a surge inside of, and this is basically what they were saying, right from the Alberta government this afternoon. We saw a surge of 150,000 new Canadians, new to Canada. They're probably not to Canadian citizens quite yet, put into the classroom in 2020, 24. So obviously nobody was ready for this kind of wave of people. And yeah, we had complexities inside of classrooms before 2024, but all of a sudden you start adding that, and it's just mass confusion. Where do we go from here? What's the A TA doing? The a TA must feel like their hands are tied and there's nothing they can do except for sounds like some legal action might be in place.

David Tait (17:02):

Yeah. Well, and I think they're going to seek out the legal recourse. I'll push back on the immigration piece. Alberta's been calling for how many years, and our premier said they want to double the population of the province. So how can you not invest in your schools? We see these neighborhoods popping up all over the place, and we see the empty fields where schools are supposed to go, and we're busing students out of those neighborhoods. I think a lack of preparation, you can have schools that aren't at capacity. I think that's okay. We've gotten used look at schools when they open up in Okotoks, right? They're bursting.

(17:57):

New schools are bursting when they open up in Okotoks, they're over capacity. And there may have been some places in the province where enrollment was declining, but walk into any school and it's not staffed appropriately. We've seen these numbers drop for years, educational assistance teachers every year, it seems like we're losing out on colleagues, and we're not being funded as divisions are requesting from the government. So yeah, again, I struggle with, you've got an ad campaign calling people to move to Alberta, and you want to double the population. You want to increase the capacity and the output of the province. But we haven't built the hospitals. We haven't built the schools. We haven't built the infrastructure. We're looking to build all of these pieces. So I do struggle. I do struggle with that.

Carlin Lutzer (19:04):

Yeah, no, fair enough. So this is a question that I've kind of had, and I think I even had it maybe last time we met, but I failed to ask it of you. Why wouldn't have the teachers in the A TA suggested going on strike throughout the summer? I know that maybe there wasn't enough clout in the summer.

David Tait (19:26):

Honestly, I think that as far as the choice to go on strike, the choice to enact job action as late as the association did was to provide every opportunity to have the sides meet and have conversations. Negotiations is like a dance. It takes two. And from what I understand, the association was ready to talk whenever the government wanted to talk. And not a whole lot happened over the summer, which was frustrating as a member of the association and even in September looking to see things move forward. But the one side would say that the other side's not coming to the table, and the other side would say that the other side's not coming to the table. And then the enhanced mediation that was offered by the government side. How can you have an open and fulsome negotiation when you limit what can be discussed?

Carlin Lutzer (20:39):

So how's the mood of the teachers?

David Tait (20:46):

They've had conversations with all sorts of people. It spans the spectrum of emotions. There are people that are excited to be back. I don't think there's anybody that's not happy to be back, but there's certainly, yeah, it's excellent to see the students. It's excellent to be back in our classrooms. It's excellent to be with the kids, but it's the how. That's the part that hurts. That's the part that leaves you lick in your wounds a little bit going, really, this was the only way. Yeah, we're meeting a little later. I was a part of the, not a part, I recorded the Dr. Moore Gibson Remembrance Day ceremony. Things are happening in our schools, so life goes on, but what things are going to look like moving forward? Right?

Carlin Lutzer (21:52):

Yeah. And I guess that's just all inside of the strategy in which you guys are planning potentially. Is there some job action or is that all there's not even in place.

David Tait (22:04):

Nope. No, no. Planning. If you read the legislation, if there's a hint of planning, it can get me fined, can get my local fine, can get my association fined. It is that that's strict. And so we are back at work. Yeah, it's crazy. And the fact that it was in eight hours, I think it was introduced at six o'clock, and then the bill concluded at 2:00 AM because they just kind of bypassed all the rules that the legislature.

Carlin Lutzer (22:47):

Yeah, honestly, and you're living this every day and teachers are, but it's really, yeah, the whole subject makes me sick, seeing what's going on, what's transpiring, how it's dividing Alberta. It is really quite baffling to me. So for parents and community members who are not teachers, what message would you like them to hear about the A TA and how you're continuing to fight for schools and kids?

David Tait (23:28):

No, I just first off want to recognize all the community members that came out to the rallies who walked with us, who were in Edmonton with us. One of our newly elected trustees was actually in the legislature when Bill two has passed. So teachers have felt the support,

(23:55):

And they're back in the schools. Their kids are back. Parents can see that there's not any meaningful change that's happened within our classrooms. We said at the beginning, it doesn't feel like that we achieved what we set out to achieve. However, those things that we were requesting from the government are now being spoken to by the government. Do we administer Nick ladies come out and say that they're going to start tracking class sizes? We've got the aggression group that is going to release their report here shortly, hopefully with funding and dollars to help support that aggression in classrooms, and then the cabinet committee on complexity. So we are going to see change, and we are going to see positive change in our schools. It's going to take some time, but certainly I think community members can hold their heads high, continue to reach out to your mla, continue to engage with the government to say, look, you're going to come out with whatever comes out of the complexity report. Let's see it put in action. After the 2002 strike, they came out with a whole list of recommendations and very few of them were implemented. Oh, really? So let's see it. Let's see. This government put their money where their mouth is, right? If we're going to see class sizes reduced, let's see it. They keep saying they're going to build schools. They've set aside 8.6 billion. So let's see it.

Carlin Lutzer (25:55):

Yeah, for sure. So last question, David, if you could flip a switch and have one immediate change implemented tomorrow in Alberta's public education system, what would that be?

David Tait (26:09):

Provide the school divisions with the funds that they ask for. Full stop. Every year, principals do an inventory of their schools. They look at the students that are coming in, they look at the complexities, and they go to division office and they provide division office the needs of the school. And then the school and the board go to the government and they say, this is what we need to run the school. And it's that simple, Carlin. It's that simple. The government just has say, yes.

Carlin Lutzer (26:43):

Yeah, we just went through municipal elections. And a big component of that is taxes and all that stuff. And higher taxes. No doubt that that could be a potential where the, yeah, and I don't even know how to word this question, but it just feels that people at home are saying, oh, we want lower taxes, but then potentially we might have to spend more on taxes and municipalities. It's such a vicious cycle. Then everybody blames the municipality for higher taxes. But really it's the Alberta government a lot of times that are up in the taxes for education and different things that the piece of the pie that the Alberta government takes. But sometimes it's either feast or famine in Alberta, and it seems like there's money for certain things, and then there's not money for other things. And I think it's kind of dangerous if we, I'm not saying we're being chintzy, but if we kind of cheap out on education, these are our

David Tait (28:01):

Kids, and I've said it at the rallies and yeah, children are our most precious resource. Children are the future of our province. Education is the only investment that the government makes that will always have a positive return. Always. The investment that we put into our children is immeasurable. And I think people have done the measurement, they've done the calculations, so for every dollar they put in education, they get $4 out

(28:41):

Eventually. Right. It's significant. What we need to make sure is that we are providing our students with the tools and the abilities and the desire to stay in the province, because I've heard a lot of teaching professionals that are planning on not continuing in education. They're like, why would I continue to work in a province that attacks their teachers? We heard similar things with the doctors before they settled their piece. Why make it so hard to do the right thing? Especially people who want to take care of children, who want to see the best that they can be, that want to help everybody reach their potential. Yeah.

Carlin Lutzer (29:36):

Yeah. Well, David, thank you for your time today. Is there anything else you want to say before we part ways?

David Tait (29:43):

No, just appreciate the time. Just appreciate the time and yeah, I enjoy our conversations.

Carlin Lutzer (29:49):

Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate you too. I do. Again, the teacher friends that I have, and even as I mentioned before, seeing your demeanor today compared to where you were at August 17th. August 17th, you felt hopeful. And now just being able to see you here on the screen, I'm just, I'm going to make an assumption. You seem very deflated, and I'm sorry for that. And again, this whole situation, you just wish it could just go away and that the teachers and the students can focus in on, because yeah, honestly, I was hoping to have a conversation with you at some point in regards to AI or something like that. Something cool where we could have come back and chatted about AI in the classroom or whatever, as opposed to three months down the road, August, September, October. Yeah, almost three months down the road having the same conversation. But really, did we get further ahead? Doesn't really seem like it.

David Tait (31:03):

Well, like I said, the education, this province is going to move forward. It's not moving forward in the way that I think a lot of people had hoped, but we'll see what comes out of these committees and we'll see what comes out of these reports. And if it's lip service or if there's dollars behind them to actually make an impact in our schools. At the end of the day, that's what you want to see. You want to be able to come to your child's school and see them supported and see them cared for and see them thrive. Yeah, for sure. Right. Yeah. That's the long short of it. And you've got good people in these hallways. You've got excellent human beings, and I think it's let them be excellent. Yeah, absolutely. Let them be. Excellent,

Carlin Lutzer (31:58):

David, thank you.

David Tait (32:00):

Thank you, Carlin. I look forward to doing it again. Yeah, you take care. You too. Thank you, sir.

Carlin Lutzer (32:16):

As I mentioned in the recording with David Tate, this has certainly divided the province. Whether you agree with the A TA or not, I think we all can agree on one thing, and the education of our children is absolutely crucial. Our classrooms are changing, our challenges are evolving, and finding the best way to support students and teachers has to be treated with the highest level of respect and seriousness. These conversations matter because our kids deserve the very best we can give them today and in the years ahead. Thanks for listening to the Okotoks podcast. If you found value in this discussion, please share the episode, follow the show, and stay tuned for more conversations that matter to our community. We'll see you next time.

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