Plan Your Dig and Dig Your Plan: Click Before You Dig

Every spring, shovels go into the ground across Okotoks for fences, decks, trees, gardens, you name it. But how many homeowners know what's buried beneath their feet? 

Carlin Lutzer sits down with Mike Sullivan, President of Utility Safety Partners and the driving force behind Alberta's Click Before You Dig campaign, to talk about one of the most overlooked safety habits in community life. 

Mike breaks down why April is Safe Digging Month, what happens when a locate request is submitted (and what happens when it isn't), and how one free five-minute click can protect your family, your finances, and your neighbours. 

As Okotoks continues to grow, this conversation is one every homeowner and contractor in the community needs to hear.

Listen for:

1:19 What makes Mike Sullivan the right person to champion safe digging in Alberta?

6:02 Why should every Okotoks homeowner click before they dig no matter the project size?

10:57 What are the real financial and legal consequences of digging without a locate request?

15:24 How is Utility Safety Partners reaching new Canadians and newcomers across Alberta?

26:46 What did an $85 million digging incident in Dallas reveal about the true cost of one wrong dig?

Connect with Guest: Mike Sullivan, President | Utility Safety Partners
Mike's LinkedIn | X | Instagram | LinkedIn | Facebook

Connect with Carlin

Email | Website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram

Sheep River Dog Rescue formally know as Moe Dog Rescue.  Passionate about giving Dogs another chance.

Special thanks to Okotoks Nissan for arranging this podcast with Kelly Hrudey.

Transcript

Announcer (00:00):

This is the Okotoks Podcast, proudly sponsored by Carlin Lutzer Real Estate. Thanks for joining us.

Carlin Lutzer (00:18):

You know how we all think? It's just a quick job in the backyard. A couple of fence posts, maybe a tree, maybe finally tackling the deck you've been talking about for three summers. But underneath your feet, it's not just dirt. It's a network, gas lines, power, fiber, infrastructure that keeps your home and your entire community running. In one wrong move, it's not just a mistake. It can turn into a disaster. Today, I'm sitting down with Mike Sullivan, president of Utility Safety Partners, the group behind Click Before You Dig. And here's the thing. This isn't just about safety. It's about responsibility. It's about awareness and honesty. It's about avoiding a mistake that could cost you everything. Let's get into it. Mike, thanks for joining me today.

Mike Sullivan (01:13):

Nice to be here. I've been wanting to do this for a while beyond the Carlin Lutzer Okotoks podcast, and here I am.

Carlin Lutzer (01:19):

Yes. And before we get going, I just want to read off some of the things you've accomplished in your life, and please don't stop me. President of the Utility Safety Partners and the guy behind Click Before You Dig. You are dogs season ticket owners. And Utility Safety Partners is a big supporter of the Oakdokes Dogs. You are a two-time Stanley Cup champion coach with the Pittsburgh Penguins, led the team USA behind the bench, widely respected as one of the sharpest hockey mines in the NHL. So first question, how do you go back from coaching Sydney Crosby to telling guys like me not to dig holes in my backyard without clicking on a

Mike Sullivan (02:07):

Website? Well, hockey might be a passion, but safe digging is my life. Yes. That's how we have to do it. No, I share the world stage with a number of other Mike Sullivans proudly, and I'm pretty sure they get mixed up with me all the

Carlin Lutzer (02:22):

Time.

Mike Sullivan (02:22):

Sure. All the

Carlin Lutzer (02:23):

Time. Yes. I'm sure. Yeah. Do you get flagged at the airport every once in a while because you do have the name Mike Sullivan?

Mike Sullivan (02:31):

Not for that. No. No, not for that. No. I used to get flagged at the airport because I had to become a Columbian citizen for a year once, but seriously, that was an issue, but that was a while ago. So thankfully I don't have to do that anymore. Yeah, for sure. Not so much. I think rangers, Mike Sullivan, may die his hair whereas I choose

Carlin Lutzer (02:49):

To. Yes. Yes, absolutely. So no, for those of you listening that don't understand cynicism, Mike is not affiliated with the NHL quite yet, but maybe one day. But you are the president of the United Safety Partners. So-

Mike Sullivan (03:09):

Utility

Carlin Lutzer (03:10):

Safety Partners. Utility Safety Partners. And behind click before you dig, and April is Dig Safe Month.

Mike Sullivan (03:18):

Dig Safe Month, Safe Digging Month. Yep. It's called a lot of things, and that's really one of the primary reason why I'm here with you today, Carlin, is I want to remind people that despite the snow on the ground, I'm not sure when this episode will air, but right now there is at the time of recording, there's a lot of snow on the ground. We got hit pretty hard last night, but April is safe digging month. It is the month when we start either to put shovels in the ground as homeowners or plan to do so, whether it's building a fence, a deck, getting the planting trees, whatever it might be, and whether it's on your own small property in suburban Alberta or an acreage, it doesn't matter. We want to be top of mind to click before you dig, submit a locate request every time you have a digging project.

(04:08):

And to do that is as a homeowner, it's a free service to you. And once you do that, once you submit a locate request, it initiates what we call the damage prevention process, where every other stakeholder of that process will carry that ball to the end of that process to make sure that your digging project is carried out safely and that you and your community are safe from any harm. And we do that in Alberta. We receive roughly half a million locate requests every year. The vast majority of those locate requests are online now. We grew up with the vernacular of call before you dig. I think as Albertans, it's driven into our brains because we are so tied to transmission pipelines, buried utilities. It's in our minds, right? But we shifted from calls to clicks a good 12 years ago and we've been pushing the web click before you dig in Alberta for, like I said, about a dozen years, and roughly 90% of all locate requests in Alberta are now online.

(05:18):

Our members, so those are the utility owners. We have about 850 of them. And the digging community, you will call them that, the excavating community, they're almost 100% online, locate requests online. Whereas homeowners, it ranges between 50 and 65% on a monthly basis. And we want to try and see that change too. We want to push homeowners to the web as much as possible.

Carlin Lutzer (05:44):

Right, for sure. So Mike, can you walk us through what types of projects? You basically said any kind of project that you're planning, but is there a certain depth if I'm going to be digging that I should use as a guide? Or is it basically, if I'm digging anything, we should click before we dig?

Mike Sullivan (06:02):

I want to see everybody click before they dig every time because it's so ambiguous. Oh, I'm only going down this amount. Well, chances are you're not. You're going to go deeper. So if you're not sure, just submit a locate request. It's free and you do it online. It takes you probably five to seven minutes to do so and you can do it twenty four seven. So there's no rationale to I didn't have time. Plan your dig and dig your plan. So if I'm going to be planting a tree, if I'm going to be doing whatever on my property, submit that locate request five days in advance of that project and you're going to be good to go. In terms of, well, I wasn't going that deep. Well, like I said before, maybe you weren't initially, but you probably are going to go deeper once you get things going.

(06:53):

And it's impossible to know the depth of the buried utility. People think, "Oh, that's 10 feet deep." No, it's not. And some utilities can be very close to the surface. They may have been installed a little deeper, but over time, whether it's soil, erosion, land leveling, anything you've been doing on your land or the homeowner previous, those utilities can be a lot closer to the surface than you might think. So why take a chance? I haven't got my Superman X-ray vision glasses

(07:24):

Perfected yet and neither has everybody else. So just submit that locate request. There have been instances in the past where a person did not submit a locate request and they were pounding rebars. The rebar rods into the ground for their garden and for their tomato plants. And they went right through a gas line and unknowingly, the gas migrated into their home and once it found a source of ignition sometime later, there was an explosion and with dire results. So again, it takes no time at all to submit that locate request and then just keeps you, your family, your community safe every single time. Right.

Carlin Lutzer (08:04):

So Mike, when I go to click, what's kind of the timeframe can I expect from the time that I click to the locators showing up at my house?

Mike Sullivan (08:14):

It varies. It varies. I mean, we will get an onslaught of locate requests once that snow disappears this time of year. May is our busiest month. We will have a tremendous amount of locate requests, maybe 60, 70,000 locate requests in the month of May. And April is dig safe month, a little bit premature sometimes here in Alberta, sometimes it's bang on. It allows us to get the word out like I'm doing right now. So be patient. If you're doing that work in May, the utilities, they will get their staff out as quickly as they can. We do not locate. Utility Safety Partners is not the locator. You submit the locate request, Utility Safety Partners processes that locate request, and we notify the utilities, bird utility owners that are in the vicinity of your project that you're doing something and they will triage that and they will dispatch locating contractors or personnel to locate and mark those bird utilities before you dig.

(09:21):

So again, the general rule is five days in advance and you'll have somebody there before your digging project takes place. In the past, there have been locate delays. Again, it's all because of the timing, when does that winter finally disappear? What is the amount of activity? And are there enough locating contractors or locate personnel to get out there across the entire province, not just Okotoks, but across the entire province to locate and mark the ground before you dig. So if there is a delay, you'll know. You'll know. And just don't dig unless there are any ... If there are no marks on the ground, don't dig, period.

Carlin Lutzer (10:04):

Right, for sure. So you talk about obviously hitting a gas line would be catastrophic, right? And you may not even know

Mike Sullivan (10:11):

That you

Carlin Lutzer (10:12):

Hit the gas line until later, until there's an ignition or it could happen even while you're digging, which is very, very dangerous. But it's not just gas lines, right? It's fiber optic, it's electrical, it's many different things. Now, if somebody does not click before they dig, there could also be some pretty huge fines placed on the homeowner, even though it's in their own yard and they do something, it's a utility right away. There could be some pretty major financial consequences if something is struck, right?

Mike Sullivan (10:57):

Oh, absolutely. And it may not be a fine, right? It may be a claim, which is probably more so the case. If you don't submit a locate request, you never give this damage prevention process a chance to work, right? You're digging blind. So you're putting a shovel on the ground, and if you have a home or anything on that land, you have utilities running to it, period. That's the way it is. So if you submit the locate request ... Sorry, let me back up a second. If you did not submit a locate request and you damage something, chances are you're going to be on the hook for not only the repair to that utility, but if there are any other damages in relation to what that caused, was it fiber optic perhaps? Okay, you're going to have to pay for the fiber optic if the claim is successful, and I can't see how it wouldn't be.

(11:53):

But what if there was a loss of business, loss of financial transactions because of the damaged fiber optic? If there was anything else beyond that, you could be on the hook for all of those things too. That's what we call societal costs. That is a very real possibility. Now, if you did submit a locate request and the utility was damaged, well, of course an investigation is going to happen and did the person digging follow all the rules they were supposed to after the locate was done? Were you digging with power operated equipment within the tolerance zone, which you shouldn't have been doing? Whatever happened. So once that investigation is complete, the homeowner or whoever was digging might be exonerated, "You know what? You did everything right and the damage still happened," which is very highly unlikely. But if they didn't do something that could prevent the damage, then that claim will go through the claims process.

(12:54):

Now, in terms of fines, the government typically doesn't get involved in that thing. It's not a government imposed fine, not with homeowners anyway, that's not typically the case. But again, it's really hard for me to be very direct, "This is what's going to happen." And with a broad question like that, but the event will be scrutinized, put it that way. And if you didn't have a locate request, the likelihood of a claim being imposed on you is much higher.

Carlin Lutzer (13:30):

Right. And I'm sure that most, for the most part, contractors should know that that's something they do. But if you have hired a contractor to your house, no doubt it still falls on you a little bit as a homeowner to make sure that the contractor has followed suit and done the proper, the click before you dig, before they start activity, right?

Mike Sullivan (13:50):

Yeah, exactly. And this is what we're seeing, right? I mean, we do see, let's say a fencing contractor or somebody putting in a deck or something like that, insist that they submit the locate request, not you. You're paying them for the service they're providing and submitting and securing a locate prior to excavation should be part of that job. We do see, unfortunately, sometimes too often that the contractor who's building that fencer, building that deck or whatever they may be doing for the homeowner, they are saying, "Well, you put in the locate request. This is your property. You do that. " And I have some concerns over that. I mean, at least it's getting done, yes, but you're paying that contractor for service. That is their project and it aligns better procedurally, in my view, if they are doing that locate request. And as a contractor, that is their livelihood.

(14:55):

I mean, they are building fence, but they are installing fence posts. They better know how to do it.

Carlin Lutzer (15:00):

Right. And you just think that if they don't, the bells and whistles should maybe go off. The spidey senses should go off your mind that, okay, why aren't they contacting? Have they had issues? Well, are they a reputable company? All those things would start going through my head. Well,

Mike Sullivan (15:16):

You got to wonder, are they carrying the right insurance? Are they carrying the right insurance? And yeah, so that would be a big question in my mind as well.

Carlin Lutzer (15:24):

So Mike, in Alberta, obviously there's a lot of new people to Canada, new homeowners as well, maybe people that haven't owned homes before. How are you guys getting the word out to the new to Canada, new Canadians, even-

Mike Sullivan (15:42):

English as a second language?

Carlin Lutzer (15:44):

Absolutely. That's got to be a bit of a struggle for you. And no doubt, a little bit of concern for neighbors and stuff knowing that there could be some digging going on with people that don't understand the rules.

Mike Sullivan (15:55):

No, you're right. And it is a topic of concern. It is a topic that comes up and it's not new, but perhaps in the last number of years, it is increasing in concern. If you go to the Utility Safety Partners website, utilitysafety.ca, and you see the click before you dig in the top right-hand corner, you would click on that, and then you're submitting your locate request online. If you are a new Canadian and you are struggling in English, my first thought would be perhaps have somebody do that for you who does speak English, but we do subscribe to a translation service as well that provides assistance to anybody who's doing so, submitting a locate request. And that's for our agents as well. If they have somebody online who is working in a, English is their second language, put it that way, then there is that assistance as well.

(16:52):

It doesn't get used a lot, which tells me that perhaps people aren't submitting that locate request. And this is, I mentioned earlier when we started the podcast that those of us who grew up in Alberta, Alberta is home to the longest running one call center, Alberta One Call, which we were, and now we are utility safety partners. And the call before you dig and now click before you dig is installed into our vernacular of safety, our safety vernacular, not just damage prevention. And that may not be the case, as you alluded to. That may not be the case for people who are coming here and Canada as their home now. And the utility owners, they have their own education, public awareness education programs, as do we, and we compliment one another. Predominantly, those programs are passive. We push everything out there, the information out there, and we hope somebody grasps

(18:00):

It. Now, complimenting that as well, Alberta Utility Safety Partners, we have had ambassadors, safety ambassadors in the field for a number of years, and we're at capacity now. We have ambassadors across a province. I mean, it's not hundreds, we're not talking that. We do have a half dozen and they go into communities throughout the digging season to promote the damage prevention process, to promote click before you dig. And also now going forward, to promote Look Up and Live, which is a new service we're going to be rolling out here this month in April that allows a person, they will be able to look on an application, a mobile or on their laptop, look up and live where they can see where they are or their project is in relation to overhead power lines as well. And it's interesting, overhead power lines, we can see them with a naked eye and yet contacts with overhead power lines are a problem in Alberta and they're a problem pretty much everywhere.

(19:02):

And whether it's situational blindness or whatever the case may be, contact with those utilities happens and there are far more serious injuries and fatalities than there are with contacting bird utilities. And so we are working to address that as well with those owners of the overhead power lines.

Carlin Lutzer (19:24):

Right. Yeah. I remember, and I don't know if the ... Yeah, back in the day on the farm with the green augers, we'd be moving those around. Every once in a while we'd come out and somebody had been on our property, but they put a sticker on the green auger. These days, I don't know if that's necessarily something proper, but so obviously call before you dig, click before you dig. This awareness has been a problem, but the awareness has been out there for years. Coming out and seeing a fresh sticker on the green auger was such a great reminder, right? Obviously we'd run into the person every once in a while, but their job wasn't to necessarily talk to us, but it was just to put a sticker on the green auger and you'd be like, "Oh yeah, right. We do move this grain auger underneath the power lines every once in a while." So Mike, who ... Sorry, go ahead.

Mike Sullivan (20:17):

No, and you're absolutely right. The agricultural community is where a lot of those contacts, overhead power lines happen, and that's something we're trying to reduce.

Carlin Lutzer (20:26):

Yeah. Mike, who funds you guys? Because obviously if I'm clicking and I'm not getting charged, because that would be a huge detriment to no doubt what you guys are trying to do is if I clicked and like, "Oh, it's going to be a $350 charge to get the ... " And no doubt it's expensive to get these done. So who funds this project?

Mike Sullivan (20:46):

Utility Safety Partners is a private nonprofit organization. So it began as Alberta One Call in early 1980s, 1982. It was established with the Business and Corporations Act of Alberta at the time. And we have been running that in Alberta ever since. So we were Alberta First Call, Alberta One Call corporation. And then back roughly five, six years ago, the Alberta One Call Board of Directors, the Alberta Common Ground Alliance Board of Directors, they unified services under utility safety partners. And then we also joined in with the joint utility safety team, which was the overhead assets, overhead energy and utility assets, education awareness. So becoming utility safety partners. Now, how we're funded is we secure members. So the Bird Utility and Overhead Asset owners, they become members of utility safety partners and they provide us with all of the funding. 100% of the funding is from those utility owners.

(21:51):

We have about 865 individual utility owners that have registered the location of their assets with us. So that means if you submit a locate request to us, you are potentially reaching 860 plus utility owners. Now, of course, they're not all going to be your dig site, but that's the value of one, the power of many, right? That's what we're seeing here. And those utilities, they pay an annual membership fee to utility safety partners. That allows us to do everything we do. And the cost of software is not cheap. Then we have our payroll, which is somewhat elastic because we build up during the digging season and we shrink when the winter comes, but we provide that service twenty four seven year round. So we are here doing the work that we do. We've changed a lot in the last number of years. You can see from where I'm standing, this is not what you would expect of a corporation office.

(22:53):

Utility safety partners during COVID, we moved to remote working and we expected to be back at the office. And then we realized that, you know what? We don't need to be. We can do this remotely and we have been ever since. And that allowed us to put more resources to where taking them off the fixed costs like renting an office space and put them where they can be doing a lot more good. And so we're one of very few one call, I call it that. The industry still calls us that or notification centers that operates remotely. If you look in the US, it's very rare that you'll have remote operations, but it's something that we certainly can do. Interestingly enough, utility safety partners, Alberta, we provide services to Saskatchewan and Manitoba and we have for many, many years. So we don't subsidize them and they don't subsidize us.

(23:51):

But the fact of the matter is we don't need bricks and mortar to provide services elsewhere. And the board of directors gave me that latitude many years ago to provide services to any other location that could benefit from it. And again, it provides that expertise that we've had in Alberta and working with our colleagues in Saskatchewan and Manitoba to preserve public worker and community safety.

Carlin Lutzer (24:20):

Well, obviously you have 875 partners that are members- Members. Yep. So they see the value as to what you guys are doing because if their lines get hit, struck, disturbed, if the product stops flowing for any amount of time, that's not just huge for potential injury of the person, but it's also money lost for sending product to, whether it's gas, whether it's telecommunications.

Mike Sullivan (24:52):

All the environmental catastrophes that can happen, right? The brand equity that gets damaged. Absolutely. So when you're in the news in a negative light, the cost of membership varies. We have a very, very unique formula, membership formula, which is so unique. There's none other like it in the world that we're aware of. And some, it depends on the fee is individual. So every single member has their own individual fee, and that fee is based on historic notifications. So how many times that utility is notified that Johnny Lunchbucket is going to be working near you, you need to locate and mark or triage that. And also it considers the risk and consequence of the asset that you own and that is a member. So whether that's a transmission pipeline or whether that is a telecommunications cable in rural Alberta or downtown Calgary. So it really has a profound effect on those fees.

(25:55):

And unlike any other one call or notification center, we invoice our members once a year. And we used to do so every month based on notifications. And it allows us to secure revenue at a time when we're getting ready for the year and carry out our operations

Carlin Lutzer (26:16):

Throughout the year. Yeah, for sure. Well, Mike, really appreciate what you do. No doubt we will never know. And the lives you have saved, the businesses that you have saved catastrophes from running, whether cutting off a telecommunication line or a power line or a gas line for that matter. And that's all fantastic, but no doubt we'll never know how many lives you have saved as a result of what you guys

Mike Sullivan (26:46):

Are doing. Well, it's interesting. I was coming home from a damage prevention conference in Dallas back in September, and I was presenting on some of the work that we were doing here in Alberta, which was very unique to the industry and reducing damages, reducing costs. And as I was waiting at the airport to come home, I saw that flights were being canceled left and right at Dallas-Fort Worth. And I looked and sure enough, my flight was being canceled as well. I started looking into what was going on and turns out that somebody had been digging and they severed the fiber optic cable that provides radar, every kind of system you can imagine for an airport, not only to Dallas-Fort Worth, but to love field as well. And it grounded, I think it was 800 plus flights that day, and everybody had to find accommodations. I did the same.

(27:50):

Where am I going to stay now that I'm here? How long am I going to be here? How do I get out of here? And I had some time on my hands, so I went to ChatGPT and I said, "What is this in societal costs?

(28:01):

What is this costing?" And ChatGPT went through very quickly, all of the elements that this damage was going to affect. And it estimated the societal costs of this one incident, digging incident, was close to $85 million, just that one incident.

Carlin Lutzer (28:22):

Seriously. Wow.

Mike Sullivan (28:22):

And that's with every damage, thankfully, the likelihood of injury, serious injury, or fatality is slim. It's always there. The possibility is always there, but with every single damage, there is a cost, whether that's repair or beyond that societal cost. Was there an evacuation? Was there environmental damage? Was it simply that the traffic lights were out and now there's a societal cost of that? That societal cost is costing not only Albertans, but Canadians, a tremendous amount of money every year. And that happens with every single damage. There is a cost. And if you're on the hook for that, I mean, if I was that contractor in Dallas and they found out who it was, I can't imagine what that would look like for my insurance.

Carlin Lutzer (29:16):

No, there are so many cases out there, Mike. I remember when I was working in oil and gas myself and basically had two field manager and an office manager going toe to toe on why the one manager felt we shouldn't dig. The other one wanted to dig. The locators couldn't find the line, but it showed up on the paper that there was a line in the ground somewhere and those

Announcer (29:47):

Guys

Carlin Lutzer (29:47):

Went toe to toe and thank God that the office manager had more clout than the field manager and said, "No, we're not digging until we know exactly Exactly where this line is. And they did find it. And I tell you what, that field manager was awful quiet for a while.

Mike Sullivan (30:08):

Good honor.

Carlin Lutzer (30:09):

Because I think he realized what could have happened.

Mike Sullivan (30:14):

Oh yeah.

Carlin Lutzer (30:15):

Mike, we appreciate what you do. And again, like I said earlier, we have no idea how many lives you guys are saving. We need to get this word out. It's something that I don't think people think about often, but it should be at the forefront of everybody's minds. Because I think even last summer, Mike, I don't know if you'd be able to pull this from your memory. I think there was some kind of event in Okotoks where there was somebody that did strike a line with all the construction and stuff going on. I don't know the specifics. I didn't see anything in the news or whatever, but kind of heard through the grapevine. And you know how the grapevine works in Okotoks. My gosh, it travels fast, but it was-

Mike Sullivan (31:00):

Well, everywhere, right?

Carlin Lutzer (31:02):

Yeah.

Mike Sullivan (31:03):

Yeah. Well, that's it. I mean, Oaktoaks is a growing community. And I live not far. We're in Okotoks often and we see the growth there. And it's not immune to damage. No community is. And if I can leave everybody with one simple thing, one click costs you nothing and not clicking could cost you everything. If you don't submit that locate request, the entire damage prevention process, which is upheld by a tremendous number of stakeholders, doesn't get the chance to begin and doesn't get the chance to be fulfilled. All it takes as a good community member to prevent damage is to submit that locate request, click before you dig. And you can do so very easily. Google, click before you dig. Go to clickbeforeydig.com, select the province of Alberta, go to utilitysafety.ca and click the orange click before you dig in the right-hand corner. It's really easy.

(32:06):

And again, one click costs you nothing, not clicking could cost you everything. Yeah.

Carlin Lutzer (32:12):

Mike, thanks for your time today.

Mike Sullivan (32:13):

Thank you for having me.

Carlin Lutzer (32:24):

There's something that really struck me in this conversation. One click costs you nothing, but not clicking could cost you everything. And that's not fear talking, that's reality. We're talking about your home, your neighbors, your community, and in some cases, lives. What I love about this conversation, and honestly, what I love about municipal level discussions like this is how practical it is. This isn't politics, this isn't theory. This is real life right in your own backyard. So before you dig, before you build, before you start that next project, take the five minutes, click before you dig. If you enjoyed this episode of the Okotoks Podcast, make sure to like, follow and subscribe on your favorite platform. And if you've got value from this, share it with someone who's about to pick up a shovel this spring, because sometimes the smallest actions make the biggest difference. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.

Announcer (33:25):

You've been hanging out with us on the Okotoks podcast. Thanks to Karlin Lutzer Real Estate. We'll see you again real soon.