Coal Mining Risk or Opportunity?

What does responsible mining actually look like and is it even possible on Alberta's eastern slopes? 

Carlin Lutzer sits down with Amanda Desjardins, a professional mining consultant who has called Okotoks home for 14 years and whose work spans mine projects across Canada and around the world. 

Together they unpack one of Alberta's most contentious issues: the push to restart coal mining near the Crowsnest Pass. 

Amanda explains the difference between thermal and metallurgical coal, why selenium worries so many people, how land reclamation actually works, and what it could all mean for the Sheep River and the communities downstream. 

It's a grounded, refreshingly balanced conversation about mining, land, and life in Okotoks… and a reminder that local voices carry real expertise.

Listen For:

2:30 What is the difference between thermal coal and metallurgical coal?

6:39 Why is selenium the biggest environmental concern in coal mining?

09:00 How does land reclamation restore mined areas in the Rocky Mountains?

20:30 Could Grassy Mountain mining impact the Sheep River near Okotoks?

Guest: Amanda Desjardins, Mining Engineer

LinkedIn

Connect with Carlin

Email | Website | LinkedIn | Facebook

Transcript

Announcer (00:00):

This is the Okotoks Podcast, proudly sponsored by Carlin Lutzer Real Estate. Thanks for joining us.

Carlin Lutzer (00:18):

Today on the podcast, we are diving into a very controversial conversation, coal mining on the eastern slopes of the Rocky Mountains. For some people, it represents jobs, economic growth and opportunity. For others, it's a major threat to water, wildlife, ranching, and Alberta's future. Joining me today is Amanda Desjardins, a mining consultant with experience working on projects around the world. We talk about the realities of mining, the environmental concerns, the economic impact, and whether modern mining can actually coexist with environmental protection. This is one of those conversations where people have very strong opinions, let's get into it. Amanda, thank you for joining me today.

Amanda Desjardins (01:11):

Yeah, no problem. Happy to be here.

Carlin Lutzer (01:13):

Yes, and you are from the town of Okotoks.

Amanda Desjardins (01:17):

Not originally from. I live in the town of Okotoks. I call it home, but I'm originally from Ontario. Don't hold it against me.

Carlin Lutzer (01:24):

Well, we have a lot of people that have moved here from Ontario recently, but you've been ... How long have you been living in Okotoks now? It's been quite a while, hasn't

Amanda Desjardins (01:33):

It? I think it's like 14 years now. I left Ontario in 2007 and then just started moving west to province at a time.

Carlin Lutzer (01:42):

Right, right on. Well, it's great to have you on today because you are certainly knowledgeable in this area that I am not. I know very little about mining specifically. We'll get into a little bit of coal mining today, but it certainly is a contentious issue in Alberta. In fact, I saw a social media influencer take the side where he was for the mining of coal and I think he lost a lot of followers that day when he decided to take a stance on coal because it is very, very contentious. Can you tell us why you think people are so upset regarding coal mining? What are some of the things that upset people?

Amanda Desjardins (02:30):

Well, I think it's partially because people just hear coal and don't understand that there are two different types. So there is thermal coal, which is used in power generation and a lot of people don't like that because of the carbon footprint associated with it. And then there's also metallurgical coal. So it's a bit of a higher grade as far as quality goes and that's used in steel making. So you combine metallurgical coal with iron in order to make steel.

Carlin Lutzer (03:01):

Okay. So between power and I'm learning as I go, metallurgical is the term. What has the greater carbon footprint? Is it power as they're burning the coal or are they both the same?

Amanda Desjardins (03:17):

No, it would be the ... So power for coal burning has a high carbon footprint. If you compare it against renewable solar, even nuclear and natural gas, those are smaller footprints as far as carbon output goes. There is some carbon output for steel making, but part of that is actually the fact that it requires electricity to do.

Carlin Lutzer (03:47):

Okay. So does Alberta have any more power like coal power generating plants in Alberta or did they get rid of them all?

Amanda Desjardins (03:59):

No. So the NDP government actually closed them early. There should have been some, I think they were going out past 2030, but they were closed early. I see it as unfortunate simply because the taxpayers had to pay these companies for the loss of revenue that closing early caused.

Carlin Lutzer (04:23):

Oh, really? Okay. So is that one of the reasons why our power bills are so high in Alberta is because we're paying that

Amanda Desjardins (04:29):

Off or no? No. So our power bills are high because a lot of those plants have to convert to natural gas in order to make sure that we had sufficient power. So that takes investment, but the payouts for these coal companies would've come basically from the provincial coffers. So your provincial taxes would've paid for it.

Carlin Lutzer (04:57):

Okay. So the NDP shut them down. To get those coal plants up and running again would just be taking a step backwards in pollution or?

Amanda Desjardins (05:09):

And it would cost even more. So when those were shut down, a lot of the power plants were retrofitted, so then they became natural gas. To convert back to coal would be substantially expensive. And the mines that were feeding those have gone into reclamation. So that's putting the land back, if you will. It's not the same, it's classified as equivalent, but you would have to redisturb it. And that's even worse for the environment compared to just mining it, disturbing it once and reclaiming it. So yeah, it wouldn't make financial sense to do it. It probably could have made financial sense to not close the coal power plants to start with, but that's a whole other conversation.

Carlin Lutzer (06:05):

Yeah, absolutely. So on the eastern slopes of the Rocky Mountains, we're talking kind of in the Crows Nest Pass area where Danielle Smith and her government are looking at getting coal mining up and running again. There's a lot of kickback towards that. And I don't think it's just the pollution standpoint from once they're converting the coal into steel, but there's a lot of environmental issues that people have concerns about with that, right? Can you walk us through some of those concerns?

Amanda Desjardins (06:39):

Absolutely. So I would say the number one concern ends up being water and that's because selenium, which is naturally occurring as you mine, you have waste dumps. Anything that basically isn't coal, doesn't go to your processing plant is put into ... I call it a waste dump. It's not a true dump the way a lot of people assume, but that increased surface area that happens because you've blasted it and you've mined it means that the selenium can enter the waterstream faster than it would if it was left untouched. Now, selenium is not acutely toxic, so it's not like you drink water that has selenium in it and you die or the fish die. It's actually one of those pieces that builds in your body builds through the lifetime. So the problem ends up being largely the fish population. Big fish eats little fish that has selineum in it.

(07:44):

It increases the amount of selenium in the big fish's body and it impacts their reproduction.

Carlin Lutzer (07:51):

Okay. So is it a salty combination or is there some kind of metals inside of the selenium?

Amanda Desjardins (08:02):

No, I don't think so. It could be a salt based as in that it reacts, but it's not one of those things where it's like a heavy metal or something like that. It's just something that naturally occurs in rock.

Carlin Lutzer (08:26):

Okay. So now let's back up a little bit. We go to the mining process because I'm from Saskatchewan, knowing the way that they mined coal in the Cornac region, they basically just ripped the coal out of the ground and they left the mounds of dirt. It actually looks really cool seeing miniature mountains in Saskatchewan because it's pretty rare, but they never reclaim the land. They never put it back to its original state. What's the process of mining in the Rocky Mountains?

Amanda Desjardins (09:00):

So I mean, if we start really, really at the beginning, a company's going to drill diamond drill in order to determine whether or not there's something there to mine. And part of that process as they go through and decide, yes, there's something there to mine and it's likely to be profitable is a lot of kind of, I'm going to say red tape, and I don't mean that in a bad way, from the government. And that includes things like environmental assessments. Once a mine is about to start up, that company also has to provide a bond to the government. So they hand over X amount of money and the amount of money, there's a few different things that go into it. So then if they ever walk away, they go bankrupt and leave, there's at least something there to ... So the burden's not completely on the taxpayers.

(09:58):

Now in Alberta, the way that that amount is determined is based on the amount of disturbance that has already happened combined with the mine life. Now the important piece when it comes to that is if your mine life is say 25 years, your bond is actually really quite small, but if the price of coal drops dramatically, then all of a sudden you go from 25 years to maybe five years and then all of a sudden the bond balloons and potentially the company can't pay the bond and so they end up walking away anyways. So I have to admit within Alberta, I'm not a fan of how they calculate the bond. I don't actually think it's sufficient, but that's how they go about it. Now the mining itself, it's traditionally you remove the overburden, you have to save the soil. That soil is put aside so then it can be used when you reclaim.

(11:02):

You generally mine drill blast muck. By muck, I mean shovel and trucks in coal mining, open pit coal mining. And then once you're kind of done in that area, you're putting it back. So you are likely taking some of your waste and putting it into the big hole you've made. You're going to slope it nicely. You're going to put that topsoil back on and there's requirements, a certain amount of subsoil, a certain amount of topsoil. I think it ends up equaling about a meter in total. And then from there you're seeding it, you're putting trees in. Sometimes there's going to be little lakes and things like that. You might put fish into it. It does depend. There tends to be an agreement with the government, usually the provincial government, but the federal government gets involved as well to say like, "This is what it's going to look like in the end." So you have to replace fish habitat equally and generally when you're replacing it, ends up a bit better than what it started out.

(12:15):

I've seen some of the fish habitat before it was mined and there were no fish there. But yeah, for sure it's one of those things that there's a lot of process to it and there's a lot of chicks and balances at every stage.

Carlin Lutzer (12:32):

So what size of area are they mining? Because I know that a few different images pop to my mind when you're talking about a mine. The first one that is kind of like the, I guess maybe they don't mine like this anymore where they dig caves into, or tunnels into the sides of mountains and dig deep into the mountain. They still do that. Okay, but this is not the type of mining that they will be doing here?

Amanda Desjardins (12:54):

No. The intended mining for the grassy mountain project and for a lot of the coal mines that exist in Alberta, whether previously operating, currently operating or future, a lot of them are open pit and that is because the coal is quite close to the surface. Underground doesn't make sense, but if we consider Saskatchewan or BC or neighbors, there's underground mining there as well. It can be accessed through that side of the mountain type of idea. You see that a bit more on the BC side. And for these, I don't mean coal, but as an example, there's a lot of gold mining in BC. There's a fair amount of copper as well. On the Saskatchewan side, it is pretty much exclusively a shaft. So it's kind of like an elevator that goes down into the earth and they mine gold uranium and potash in Saskatchewan that way.

Carlin Lutzer (13:57):

How deep are some of those mines?

Amanda Desjardins (14:00):

I mean, they can go very, very deep. So there's one in Ontario Kid Creek mine. It's a copper mine. It's been mine. It's been in production for a really long time. It's something like four CN towers stacked on each other. And then when you compare that to some of the really deep mines in South Africa, that's nothing South Africa is very, very deep. So it really depends on where you're mining, what you're mining, and kind of what the mineralized area looks like.

Carlin Lutzer (14:35):

Yeah. Is the sea and tower not like-

Amanda Desjardins (14:38):

I don't know for sure. I went there and this is dating. I went there back in school in university as a part of a field trip and they actually had a picture of, well, it was like a 3D model of the sea and tower and then the mine and I'm sure they've gotten quite a bit deeper since then. So

Carlin Lutzer (14:57):

It's half a kilometer, so 553 meters. That's crazy. So would there be less concern in Alberta if the mining was that traditional dig tunnels into the side of a mountain and would there be less environmental impact and less concern for people?

Amanda Desjardins (15:21):

For the most part there would be. You're getting less surface disturbance. It would also depend on what you're doing with your waste rock. So no matter how you're mining, you're always going to have waste that you will not send to your processing plant. If that is stored on surface, then the problem, the concern surrounding selenium is still going to be there. If you are able to put it back underground, then the concern is significantly less. The problem, of course, is underground is more expensive just as a per ton basis, it's always going to be more expensive. And if the ore body's too close to the surface, then underground doesn't work. And I think that's where a lot of the problem ends up being. If you wanted to say take the grassy mountain project and make it underground, it wouldn't end up working. It'd be better for the environment though.

Carlin Lutzer (16:20):

So when they start to mine, are they ensuring that you get spring runoff, you get all those things that none of the water from the pit is running into current streams, rivers. Is that part of the process of them digging the mine as well?

Amanda Desjardins (16:42):

It can be. It depends mine by mine, but what I would want to see from Grassy Mountain, which they have not finished their environmental assessment at this point, but I would want to see diversions. So any melt and things like that don't actually hit the mine, which is good for mining as well as for the environment. I would want to see sampling of that water, anything that is kind of in the pit, near the pit, near the waste dumps and then also treatment. The thing, especially with selenium and there can be other things that affect your water, but in this case, it's mainly selenium. The thing about it is if you're ahead of it, then you can manage it, but it's a long-term thing. It's one that slowly builds so you have to approach it knowing that it's something you're going to be dealing with for decades after you're done mining.

Carlin Lutzer (17:44):

So is the mining seasonal or can they keep going throughout the winter and they get a foot of snow in the winter, they keep the mines going, they keep going, doesn't matter what time of year, they're always mining

Amanda Desjardins (17:59):

All year round. I mean, the only time you tend to see where it might shut down, if you get a really heavy rainfall, you may end up having to shut down and then even like cold temperatures won't do it kind of consider that they're mining in the northwest territories in the Yukon in Alaska. So yeah, all year round is absolutely possible and generally what happens.

Carlin Lutzer (18:26):

Right. So in your opinion, you have no issues for the environmental impact on mining for coal on the eastern slopes of the Rocky Mountains.

Amanda Desjardins (18:40):

I mean, I wouldn't say I have none, but I think the risk can be mitigated is the thing. And the Grassy Mountain Project was rejected in 2021 because they weren't mitigating enough of the risk. They didn't have things like testing water and treating water and things like that. If they do a new environmental impact assessment and they do a new reclamation plan and it says, yes, we're going to test the water, we're going to treat all of the water we're going to, et cetera, then I have faith that between that company and the government that they will do what they're saying they're going to do. And I get not everyone loves to put their faith into corporate Canada, I guess, and the government, but to a certain extent, a lot of this ends up being public record as well. So you can always check on it yourself.

Carlin Lutzer (19:42):

Right. What kind of financial impact would these mines have on the province of Alberta?

Amanda Desjardins (19:50):

I mean, royalties are paid to Alberta for anything that comes out of it. So oil sense and oil and gas that's being pumped and coal, all of it, there's a portion that goes to the government and it of course also makes jobs. So the Croasness Pass, my understanding is that they are for this project because there is so little within their local economy and they don't have a lot of jobs in the area. They don't have nearly as much as they used to. So they want this because of the economic side effects, which are generally quite positive.

Carlin Lutzer (20:30):

Right. So who are the people that are ... There's a lot of ranchers that are kind of not for farmers. What rivers are impacted? We have the sheep river here in town. Would that be impacted by this mining or is it other rivers in the area?

Amanda Desjardins (20:50):

The sheep river could be. So I looked it up because I was curious as well. So it's within the South Saskatchewan River Basin as well as the Oldman River Basin. And so that means that it partially feeds the sheep river and the highwood. Those are fed by other sources as well, but it definitely has downstream effects and that's where being responsible, ensuring that you are treating the water is so important because you can impact a lot of communities as this water flows.

Carlin Lutzer (21:35):

Yeah, for sure. Amanda, what other kind of mining are you involved in?

Amanda Desjardins (21:42):

So I actually work as a consultant. So I end up working in a lot of different mining methods, different commodities in different locations around the world. So I have either reviewed or created designs and economic assessments and things like that for mines in Canada as well as the US, Africa, South America, Mexico, it's pretty wide reaching. And yeah, coal is not my only source of my work. I actually do quite a bit. Right now, gold has really had an uptick I'm sure you've

Carlin Lutzer (22:30):

Seen. Right. Yeah. Now gold in Alberta or are we mining? Is there much gold in Alberta?

Amanda Desjardins (22:38):

No, I'm not really aware of any. I could be wrong. There's gold in BC. There's gold in Ontario. I'm seeing more of the BC side and then I've seen quite a bit in Mexico and South America.

Carlin Lutzer (22:57):

Right. Okay. What about diamonds? Is there much for diamonds in Alberta?

Amanda Desjardins (23:02):

I don't think there's any ... At least there's no known deposits I think for diamonds in Alberta. There definitely were quite a bit in the Northwest territories. They're starting to kind of wind down and they've seen some struggles because of the pricing, but yeah, it's always exciting I think.

Carlin Lutzer (23:23):

Oh yeah. No, for sure. Because I thought Saskatchewan would have some diamond mines as well, don't they? Saskatchewan?

Amanda Desjardins (23:29):

I don't think they

Carlin Lutzer (23:30):

Do. You don't

Amanda Desjardins (23:30):

Know? Okay. I mean, it's possible that it exists and it's just not being mined, but as far as I'm aware, the main mining in Saskatchewan is uranium, potash and gold. I think there's some copper as well.

Carlin Lutzer (23:46):

Right. Okay. Does Alberta have ... Sorry, I'm just pushing a bunch of questions. Does Alberta have much uranium in the northern parts or is that ...

Amanda Desjardins (23:54):

Not that I've heard Saskatchewan is really unique as far as how that's set up. So there's a very flat line. I mean, it's Alberta, right? Everything's flat. There's a really flat line, but some of them are very high grade uranium. If any of your listeners feel like being a bit of a Nerden looking up Cigar Lake, they actually did their own research and development to create their mining method, which is really unusual and they've got really, really high grade uranium.

Carlin Lutzer (24:33):

Yeah, that's fascinating. Well, Amanda, I appreciate your expertise. Is there anything else that you would like to leave the listener with in regards to mining?

Amanda Desjardins (24:46):

Yeah, there's a couple of things like what I found when I was researching why people are against the grassy mountain project specifically. So one is the idea of green steel. So you don't need coal, metallurgical coal in that steel making process. Now the issue is it takes more energy that energy is maybe coming from renewable sources, but it may actually be coming from coal-fired power plants in China. And then the other piece to that is you have to have a much higher quality iron input for it. So you can't just simply put whatever iron you want into that process. It won't actually work. It has to be high quality. The other argument I hear is like this not in my backyard type of idea. And for that one, I say, first of all, all of the things that we use, we have to recognize we're going to continue using them and so it's going to have to be made.

(26:00):

Do we want it mined and processed in Canada where we have some pretty good stringent requirements or are we okay with it being done somewhere else to a lower standard? What is really better for the world? So it's just a couple of things that I wanted to make sure to touch on.

Carlin Lutzer (26:26):

Well, yeah, for sure. And I think that not in my backyard goes for a lot of different things. We use steel. It's a big part of our economy if we can start shipping steel. Now, would it be a Canadian company that's mining the coal in-

Amanda Desjardins (26:47):

So a sea mountain project, the original company is Australian. In this particular instance, it's not always. And then they would have a Canadian subsidiary company that would be doing the actual mining, hiring the local individuals. There's some coal mining that's happening in Alberta and it's an American company that is mining it. So it can really vary. A lot of our truly Canadian mining companies, a lot of them have actually gone by the wayside. So if we think about Inco or Falcon Bridge, even I'm trying to think, there's a few others, but a lot of them have been gobbled up by some of the bigger miners that are more worldwide.

Carlin Lutzer (27:41):

For sure. Yeah. The whole not in my backyard philosophy certainly works for a lot of different things, right? Even some bringing it back to home, some of the issues we're facing here locally. Okotoks has a hard time putting up a cell phone tower because people use the cell phone towers all the time, but they're like, "I don't want that in my backyard." So yeah, there certainly has to be some give and take. And I think even to maybe for the people that are upset and opposing this, maybe to up the standard of proper mining. And it seems like in your mind, the standard's pretty high, but you know how there can be catastrophes and things go wrong and- Absolutely. ... then we're dealing with the consequences for that for a long time. But if we lived by those standards inside of oil and gas and all those things, we would never be as prosperous of a province as we are.

(28:42):

And I certainly appreciate the conversation on both sides of the table because I think everybody has something to learn from each other, but I certainly do appreciate your expertise, Amanda.

Amanda Desjardins (28:56):

Yeah, no problem. I'm really happy to be able to share what I hope is some valuable insight.

Carlin Lutzer (29:02):

Yeah, it certainly was. So thanks for your time today.

Amanda Desjardins (29:05):

Thank you.

Carlin Lutzer (29:16):

Whether you agree with coal mining or completely oppose it, these are the conversations that matter. Big decisions are being made in Alberta right now and understanding both sides of the debate is important. A huge thank you to Amanda Desjardins for coming on and sharing her knowledge and experience in the mining industry. If you enjoyed this episode of the Okotoks Podcast, make sure to like, follow, subscribe, and share it with someone who cares about the future of Alberta and we will catch you next time.

Announcer (29:49):

This has been the Okotoks Podcast, proudly sponsored by Carlin Lutzer Real Estate. Until next time, take care.