Too Much Too Fast? Part 2 The Future of Okotoks Growth

Since our first conversation on growth in Okotoks, a lot has happened.

If you'd like to share your thoughts with Town Council, please take a few minutes to reach out. Visit the link below and select "Mayor & Council" from the drop-down menu to send your comments or questions:

https://www.okotoks.ca/form/contact-us-mayor-and-council

Town Council has approved higher-density developments, residents have organized community meetings, hundreds of people have participated in a citizen-led survey, and new questions continue to emerge about the future direction of our community.

In this episode, I welcome Paul Howarth back to the podcast to unpack the events of the past several weeks and discuss some of the biggest issues facing Okotoks today.

We discuss:

* What has happened since our first episode
* Recent Town Council decisions
* Higher-density development and what it could mean for future neighbourhoods
* The Town's projected population growth to nearly 96,000 residents by 2049
* Infrastructure, traffic, schools, recreation, and community planning
* The Town's reported debt and the role growth plays in future finances
* Why citizen engagement matters, regardless of where you stand

This conversation explores questions and perspectives that many residents have raised. The goal isn't to tell listeners what to think, but to encourage informed, respectful dialogue about the future of Okotoks.

Whether you support the current growth strategy, have concerns about its pace, or simply want to better understand the issues, this episode aims to add context to an important community conversation.

As always, I welcome respectful discussion and would be happy to host Town Council members, Administration, developers, or other community voices who would like to share their perspectives.

Connect with The Okotoks Podcast

🎙️ New episodes every week featuring local news, community leaders, business owners, and conversations that matter in Okotoks and the Foothills.

If you enjoy the show, please follow, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who cares about the future of our community.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Okatokes Podcast, where the stories are as solid as the big rock. Sponsored by Carlin Lutzer Real Estate.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Welcome back to the podcast. Before we jump into today's episode, I want to ask one thing. Whether you believe Okotoks is growing too quickly, not quickly enough, or you're still trying to figure it out where you stand. Listening to a podcast or posting your opinion on social media is not enough. If you care about the future of this community, make sure your voice is heard. Reach out to the mayor, reach out to every member of council. Do it respectfully. Ask questions, share your concerns, share your ideas. One of the impressions I've come away with is that council believes these concerns are coming from a relatively small group of residents. This episode explores why many people are asking questions about the pace of growth and some of the financial realities that may be driving it. I want to be very clear. I appreciate every member of town council for putting their name forward and serving our community. It's not an easy job. My hope isn't conflict. My hope is healthy dialogue, greater transparency, and a better understanding. Now let's get into too much too fast part two. My follow-up conversation with Paul Howarth. Welcome back, Paul. Thank you, Colin. It's great to be back as always. Yeah. Well, last time we released a podcast, the date of that release was May the 17th. I kind of want to bring you up to speed a little bit as to everything that has transpired since then. Um so if people haven't listened to the first one, uh uh we called it too much too fast. Maybe we'll call this uh too much too fast too, right? Um the podcast just uh to follow up. Uh, because yeah, it feels like there's there's a lot that has happened. My head sometimes spins with just trying to keep up um with everything that you know you read about or you hear about through council meetings or whatever. So if it's okay with you, Paul, I'm just gonna bring you up to speed with the last uh few weeks of uh things that have happened. So, like I said, we were released the podcast May the 17th. Um after that podcast uh was released, I reached out to uh the mayor and the council inviting them them all or anyone to come on the podcast to discuss or to discuss with me individually. Um I got an email back uh basically saying thanks, but no thanks. Uh we're gonna, you know, communicate this stuff ourselves. And I'm like, okay, that's your prerogative. That's great. So uh May the 28th, um, myself and Colin, and there was a few other people uh present, uh we we attended council because they were gonna be um advising new developments to go forward. And then there were some that they were gonna put on hold for a while because they didn't meet the proper criteria. Um and uh it was in that meeting because before we released the podcast with you on May the 17th, I recorded with Jeff Green. It was kind of my understanding that um the units per acre were not gonna be up to 12. We were encroaching on that, but we're not we're not quite there yet. So that was just a few weeks before I recorded with you. And then we go to the uh council meeting. Uh again, I guess I could have found that if I would have dug into some of the documents. Um, but council did approve uh 12 units per acre at the uh Ridgemount um subdivision, uh just north of town, right around surrounding the Catholic Church, uh HTA high school, um uh 12 units per acre. Um in that council meeting, it was also communicated um by a counselor that they felt that the Okatok's growth strategy has the structure in place to grow at three to four percent. Um and again, council keeps talking three to four percent, three to four percent. That's what are you know were projected to grow at three to four percent. Um during that meeting, it took me a while to figure it out. Um I think people uh it took me a while to realize that uh that first part of the council meeting was was talking about the things that I've been talking about on my podcast, and then it was communicated on the council that it's really unfortunate that things uh have been miscommunicated and there's myths, there's things that aren't true that are being communicated out to the public. And I was like, okay, I wonder what that is. And I'd certainly like to know like if I'm communicating something that's not true, I would love for people to stop me and say, hey, this isn't true. That's what dialogue does, right? Paul, you're listening to me right now. If I say something that isn't true, you're gonna stop me and say, Well, no, I don't think that's true, Carlin. Um, so, anyways, so then uh at intermission, after that uh first part was over of counsel, uh I ended up having a conversation. I was grateful for the counselor that came and talked to us. Um they said, uh, do you have any concerns with um, you know, what was discussed? And I said, Yeah, I was kind of surprised that we're up to 12 units per acre. And that counselor said, Yes, we passed that. And isn't it great? And I'm like, Well, no, I don't think that's great going to 12 units per acre, but we'll leave it at there. Um, then I said, My biggest concern is just where we're projecting to grow up to 96,000 people by 2049. Then this counselor said, Carlin, where are you getting your stats from? Where are you getting your numbers from? Alluding to, because it was this same counselor that was talking at that time in council, um, talking about the things that are being communicated to the community that are unfortunate myths, myths, I guess. Um, I said, uh, actually, it's on page 22 of the Okotokes growth strategy. That counselor was very surprised and kind of backed away, and that conversation was done. I also had another conversation uh with another counselor before that, where again I communicated the 96,000 by 2049, and that counselor was surprised. So that's two counselors. I don't know about the other counselors that were surprised by this projection. So, anyways, also in that uh council meeting, you start to learn that uh 80% of the lots can accommodate up to four dwellings, like one lot, four dwellings. So we were talking um 80% of the lots in these newer developments are gonna be um duplexes, basically, with rentals in the basement, right? So so those units per acre, are we actually talking about the rentals in the base? So there's so many different things, Paul, that um have left me very, very uh confused. Um, so basically, in that council meeting on May 28th, it's it came across that there wasn't there wasn't enough people. This is just a small group of disgruntled, grumpy old, old people like myself that uh aren't happy with growth and you know they're an anti-growth group and blah, blah, blah. Again, I need to reiterate because we keep getting pegged as the anti-growth group, and we are not the anti-growth group. Uh, the MDP, the master development plan was great that when that was released in 2021, and I was mistaken and I was corrected by the mayor that I was saying 2023, but it was actually 2021. The municipal development plan was released, and that growth rate was six, uh, was over 60 years to be 70,000. Something that was, in my opinion, a lot more sustainable than our projections right now. So thanks for listening, Paul. I still got more to go, and then I'll let you talk. Oh, carry on. I'm I'm I'm intrigued. Okay, so so that was that. So I felt that this group, um, that the council felt that this group was very, very small. So we then decided that we were gonna have a a group of concerned citizens uh go to the beach house in Crystal Shores on June the 3rd and just to see it. And my attitude was like, if we get five people out, if we get 10 people out, if we, you know, it's probably not enough to keep this momentum going, to have a mandate. So I if there was a part of me that was just like, okay, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe there's not an a lot of people that are concerned about this. So I will, yeah, I'll be done. I paid for the the rental of the the place. Just okay, if if we only get five, I was almost kind of hoping that and be like, okay, it's just my problem. I can let this rest. There was 50 people that showed up. Uh, 50 people at the beginning of June. June is a very, very busy month. And there was a lot of people that reached out to me and said, Carlin, I'm sorry, I can't make it. We're busy, we're at dance recitals, uh, you know, all these different things going on. But they a lot of people reached out. Um, so in, you know, there was other people saying that that was not enough, that was a small group, whatever. But I just feel that um the the amount of people was enough to for me to carry this mission on for at least a little bit more, right? Um, so then uh Colin organized uh a survey, a survey of the people. And that survey was given out at June, June the 3rd meeting as well. And then he then reached out to um uh online social media groups. It was uh uh a survey that people could do. And by the end of the day, we had 692 people uh fill out that survey. And I think that was a fairly substantial group of people for uh citizen initiative. And it felt, I think, you know, just kind of guessing, I think it was about 80% of those people that were really concerned about the growth in this town. Again, not anti-growth, but concerned about the direction that we're headed. So uh out of that meeting though, Paul, it was very cool because there was so many great ideas and coming from people that were still for growth as well. There's people that had ideas in in regards to taxes and how taxes are are are paid. There's people that had ideas about um, you know, the the different ways that we can think outside the box and not be so dependent upon growth for revenue in the town. And yeah, there were some people that just that came just to simply complain. And some of those people, they I think they felt that they were heard. I we had no power to change anything, but we were sympathetic to what they were saying. We said, we understand, you know, thanks for coming. Um, some of those people we may never see again, but they've they had a platform for a little bit, right? And I think I think we need to give as many people platforms there because some ideas, some people just want to complain and then they get out of there. Some people actually have solutions to how to solve some of these problems. So um, so Colin then went to council on June 22nd. Uh, he presented um his findings of the survey. Um uh the council call, I think Colin was a little bit more hopeful that the council would at least listen to some of the things that were brought out. Um I kind of wasn't as optimistic as as Colin, thinking that they it would probably be dismissed. Um I think council basically did say that you know there wasn't there wasn't anything that in there that we haven't heard before. We've heard this all before. So um they then Ryan Nix then uh talked about the offsite levies and how important it is for us to have the off-site levies. Um and basically his rebuttal to Colon was the fact that we have a debt of $65 million. And just in servicing that debt alone, if we don't get the off-site levies from the developers, that our taxes will have to increase 15% just to pay off the interest of that loan, not to pay off. So that really put things into perspective a little bit as to okay, well, if we don't grow, our taxes are gonna increase. But if we do grow, what's this town gonna look like? So I did I uh after calling, I was able to make a presentation myself. Um I talked about the municipal development plan and the growth uh that that showed and why the Okatokes Growth Strategy that was released in June 2025, just a few months before the next election. Um uh the goal lines certainly changed, but I think it's a little bit more of an understanding that the goal lines had to change in order to pay off the debt. So, Paul, I feel that if we had a change in administration last October, that fairly early on, the mayor would have to call the people together and say, listen, we are in debt and we have to grow at the at two to three per or three to four percent every year. And if we don't, uh taxes are gonna increase greatly. And unfortunately, we've kind of painted ourselves into a corner. Um, so so in that I um I walked away because I felt that um I was reprimanded. I almost felt like, well, how dare you come and talk to us at council about these? Like we've talked about this before, but I don't think council has ever come out and been really clear about the debt issue that we do have and the reason why we're uh growing so quickly. Something that was very surprising to me because, and if any developer's listening to this, I need to apologize because I've always blamed you for the higher density and being pushed. But Tanya admitted that it is the council pushing the higher density upon the developers. In fact, the developers are saying we we would like a lower density than what you guys are asking, but the town of Okatokes is asking for a higher density. Um, and you know, so we I walked out of that meeting on May the 28th, knowing that okay, we're 12 units per acre. And then a week later, Hokewell Residential sent an email out, and they're they're building on the big rock trail. They're just in the new project in the process of getting approvals and stuff like that and going through town halls. Um, they sent an email out saying we're at 12 units per acre, but basically we can go up to 13.8 units per acre if we so choose. And that's where my head's spinning. It's just like, what are we doing? Um then a firefighter came and he uh raised his concerns with how tight things are, and he was talking about Tillotson as well. We're uh they're still just in development stage. Um, that's what Tanya said. We're still just in development stage, and the the roads are so tight, and that's his concern. Um, but my concern is, you know, you look at the the communities that we used to have and the wide range of buildings. You had your estate lots, you had your uh mid-size homes, you had your starter homes, you had your town homes, and you had your apartment-style condos. And I always wondered why they did that. And walking away from that, it you know, just to be clear, I don't think you wanted to build uh a whole development based around lower income housing. And people are gonna probably jump all over me for this. And I believe it was done intentionally um to keep the crime rate lower, to have people spread out, um, and yeah, to have a mix of the estate homes and the condos and everybody living in community is one. Um when I talked to Jeff Green um on the podcast, building estate homes, uh, and when I say estate homes, I mean larger homes with larger lots like Crystal, um, not Crystal, um Air Ranch, the older, older Air Ranch, the west side of the runway and the northeast side of the runway. Um, Cimarron Estates, those types of lots are not being built right now. And right now in the Okotoks area, those things are flying off the shelf. If they're priced accordingly, people are jumping all over that because people are realizing Okotoks isn't building things like this anymore. So I don't know. It's uh I yeah, I left I left council meeting very being very discouraged. I I felt that um in community engagement is certainly a part of something that um it says on their website that they want to have people um people engaged, uh engaged in the in what's going on. Um and you know, you see it right here, right? Let's help shape our town. It's right on the website. Um, is that something that we want to do? And the other part that I think is interesting, you look at what the city of Calgary has done. And, you know, with them repealing their blanket rezoning. This is a quote from Jeremy Farkas. Um, you know, some people like Jeremy Farkas, uh, there's some that don't, or whatever. But the one thing that they did um is the city of Calgary quickly realized what this blanket rezoning was doing to their city and how it was affecting parking, how uh you know, older communities are becoming high density communities all of a sudden. Um, you look at the the areas like uh Seton, um, and just where they were in this big pursuit of high density, the city of Calgary listened to the people. Listen to the people. And my concern is not growth, it's the density issue and the way that it feels like the only mission we have now is to build more roofs so we can tax more people and we have more income to service the debt. And that's very concerning to me, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Well, Carlin, it sounds like you've been quite well, through quite a journey, organized a resident-led meeting, got some feedback, went into council, spoke about this, came out of council feeling maybe not heard, is what I'm getting from you. And a lot of interesting things that you brought up there. I'd like to go back to, I think it was one of the counselors, Ryan Nicks, that you said we need to increase by this number because otherwise the taxes will go up by 15%. And I guess my question to you is, is what led it there? Is this the preparation for the new growth that they have laid out in the growth management strategy, laying down the infrastructure for those homes that has led to this debt? Or is this an existing debt that Okotokes already had as a taxpayer base? Like was Okotokes as a town in trouble financially before it decided to go down, you know, the rad rather large expansion that it it's it's undertaking right now?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Yeah, that's a good question. I feel that uh the the water pipeline has certainly uh contributed to the debt, but I think there's been some you know some revitalization of the downtown, and I don't know those numbers, I don't know those figures, but I think that has contributed to the the the debt. Um obviously the you know they're they're enhancing, they're replacing the infrastructure downtown, which was certainly uh aging infrastructure in regards to the the lines and different things like that, and that I certainly appreciate the town taking care of I I don't know, especially when you see what's happening in in Calgary. What else has uh contributed to that debt? But I know that the water pipeline is a huge part of that. And I know the the phrase keeps going, uh growth pays for growth, but I'm not sure if we could necessarily say that in Okotox.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, I'm always a believer that growth should pay for growth. And if if the growth is built in there, then hopefully it's uh it's been made with with good data in mind. And I actually have a couple of things I'd like to share with you because it does it does worry me that Okotox is pinning its hopes on being able to Pay back the debt through expansion rather than the existing tax base without burdening those taxpayers even more. And as as I as I look at the growth figures in Alberta, uh, and I just put them up on the screen, if we look back to you know July of 2023, then we're bringing almost 60,000 people as a net migration into the province. And this is off the Alberta's um government's website. These are actual statistics of people that come into Alberta, and we can see that in 2024 there started to be a major change in net migration into Alberta, and in recent months it's down to around 5,000 people per quarter coming into Alberta and then dipping even further. And one of the most worrying things about high-density housing, if we look all the way to Ontario, where now these houses are not having people to purchase them, there aren't the people to buy them, we're now ending up in a situation where governments that were allowing these structures to go ahead through their area structure plans are now bailing out the housing developers who built these things. And when I look at Alberta's net migration and I look at high-density housing today that's been built in Alberta, and if we take this as an average, that's around 20,000 people coming into Alberta every every year. And in Alberta, we're building 44,000 new homes. Now you're a realtor, you know what happens when we end up with an excess housing stock. I lived here with my parents in '86, and people were handing back the keys when these exact figures, these microeconomic uh figures, were were appearing. People were handing back their keys. And another thing with this, if we can do, we can go into further math maths. The average size of an immigrant family coming into Canada is around three to four people per home. So 20,000 people, we need 5,000 homes. We're over, we're we're overbuilding, or let's even go at three, we need 8,000 homes. We're overbuilding by uh 30,000, 32,000, 33,000 homes right now in Alberta. And it worries me that Okotokes would tie back to this kind of population increase. And in fact, if I if I actually look at the growth plan here within Okotokes, this is page 22 of the growth management strategy. They say, in their own words, looking ahead, Okotokes is projected to reach 95,875 people by 2049. So they're expecting the mid to high growth category on this chart that I have up. This is from Okotokes' own publication. That means Okotokes is going to grow to 95,875. But I would say with the recent change in immigration in Canada, I'm not sure that that's realistic. And maybe that they've been basing their figures from old maths. And it worries me that there has been a financial encumbrance upon the people of Okotokes where you need to grow or taxes are going to be raised. And I just wonder if these decisions are being made off this latest data that comes in from the Alberta government. So I think I would say that there is a lot more to worry about just than the high-density homes. You may find yourselves in Okotokes, just as the Ontario government has, is bailing out these housing developers. I wonder then what that would do to the people's taxes in Okotokes.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Yeah, certainly, you know, like it feels like we are putting all our eggs in one basket. And I know that it's as I'm learning, I would hope that I am evolving in the way that I think, but that's where I think we need to look at something a little bit differently than the way that we're going about it and we're in pursuit of growth in order to like when when we're telling the developers, like it feels like Okatoks is trying to take on the housing crisis itself. Like we're we're we're taking on this burden, but we look at communities like Seton. I I as soon as I have a client saying, I want to go look in Seton, I'm like, oh my gosh, I hate Seton. It's so passionate. Really, you want to, you you actually want to go live in Seton. Um now, like uh yeah, it's it's it's it feels like what we are doing is we are replicating right now. We have uh Tillotson, we have DRC, we have Wedderburn, we have Ridgemount on the way, and then this Hopewell. I keep calling it Hopewell. Hopewell's the developer. Um, so basically five communities on the go. And it just feels like we just keep replicating the same thing over and over and over again. Um, you know, we talk about identity. Um, I we, you know, the Okotok's what they want to have an Okotokian identity in each community. Um I don't know, Paul. It just feels like we are in the pursuit of a of you know a feeling, like especially when I look at the uh the um the 2026 to 2049 Okotokes um strategic plan. Uh not to be cynical, there was there was nothing in there. If you go, I if you load that PDF up into Chat GBT and say, tell me what the plan is uh in this strategic plan, it's more like talking about how we want to keep the feeling, the feel of Okatokes. We want, you know, there was nothing, you know, as my dad used to say, there's no meat potatoes in that. There was nothing um solid that we can say, okay, here we are. We're looking at um constructing a roundabout at even though this would be the provincial government at 338 in uh 32nd, or we're gonna enhance 32nd Street or whatever. Um there was not there was nothing, and that's it's really I I wish that the counselors could put themselves in our positions, seeing what they're pursuing, but without knowing what's going on. And I felt that council is sitting there on the the platform looking down at the people, saying, Don't worry, don't worry about it. We got this. This is why we've been elected. We've been elected to take care of those things. Well, yes, that's my hope is that we had a council that had the best interests of the people in mind, but um is that the case when you have 80% of 692 residents that filled out a survey saying that they're they're greatly concerned about growth? Uh, we have uh people in education on council um that have a school right beside close to Ridgemount. And um has that counselor went and talked to the teachers? Um, have they talked to the parents of the school to say, hey, how do you feel about the demographics of our school changing greatly over the next 10 years if we do hit these figures? However, Paul, bringing the conversation back, you're saying, according to the Alberta government, we don't need really we don't need to be worried about this.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Well, I would be very worried living in any town or city that's overbuilding right now, because usually what that comes with is property house drops. So if I was an Okotokian and I saw that my town was building or or projecting to build at three, you know, be three times the size of what it currently is, I'd be very, very concerned. I'd be looking at what the indicators in the market are right now. And if I look at Ontario, the government is now built bailing out developers. That that has affected the house prices in Ontario. There are people now stuck in that. It's not the way to fix the city. Thanks so much for listening to the Okutubs. People don't want to get into a market like that. I'm not sure. And and the issue cascades. What you want is a that's it for today's episode of the Okutughts Podcast. For making it happen. Looking at the immigration figures into Alberta, the net immigration, looking at how many homes are needed in Alberta. And you know, I just did a very quick maths on that. If if if the migration stays at about 20,000 people into Alberta, um, then Okotox is looking at swooping up 12.5% of the net migration into Alberta. And when you you think as a population that Okotoaks, you know, is nowhere near that as a percentage, I'd say that that's very ambitious. I don't think that they are the only municipality looking at do that. When I when I look over to uh other local municipalities like Cochrane, you know, they're looking to build to 90,000 people. They're about 40,000 right now. And and I just don't think that under the current mark market conditions and what's happening in the housing market, um, that that this is a sustainable rate to look at. And I would be very, very, very worried if my council has took on a load of debt expecting these people to move in to take care of my taxes moving forward. I I I think that I think a new strategic plan is probably warranted under the massive change in the temporary foreign workers that has happened. Um, I don't particularly think that it's a bad change that that we've slowed down immigration as I speak here with my English accent. I did live here till 87 before stealing this accent from the Brits. Um but at the same time, at the same time, I think that there's a lot more to be worried about. And I I think unless more than just you and 50, 60 other people turn up at council, and I I think the number one purchase that we make throughout our homes, uh our lives, the most expensive purchase we normally make is the house that we live in. Um I think it's a serious purchase. I think that that needs to be looked after by both our municipal governments and our provincial governments, all the way up to the top to the federal government. And I think that there's a systemic failure throughout all forms of government right now to actually adapt to what's been happening to the point that we're now bailing out builders, developers for these bad choices. Like I would think a smart municipality would be getting ahead of this now and saying, we're just fine right where we are, thanks very much. Um it sounds like Okotok's already committed. I would be very worried being an Okotokian. Um and uh and and I would be turning up in my council too, just as you did. Uh, and it's it's sad when when you turn up with good intentions, um, but but looking at the stats that are before us, it's a very, very worrying. And any Okotokian listen to this needs to start write writing to their counsellors and and asking for the answers. You know, are these projections realistic? They don't look like it to me. The the basic macroeconomics of of this spells disaster. So I'm glad somebody's standing up for you know my neighbours in in Okotokes, Carlin. I'm glad that's you. Um, but unl unless you get a bunch of other people behind you, this really isn't gonna go anywhere. So, listeners, you you need to step up. You know, I'd be worried about my property value, I I'd be worried about what my what my town looks like. People move out to the smaller suburbs to get away from those high densities in the cities, usually. And if you're starting to replicate those in Okotokes, I'd say that that's a very slippery path.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I do feel the same. And I will, you know, on the the YouTube uh details, I'll put uh the contact information that you can reach out to your uh to the counselors and the mayor and to uh voice your concerns. Um I don't know what it will take, and I want I would love for this to be uh to be some collaboration because again, Paul, back to that meeting on June the 3rd, the ideas uh that came out, the there was one gentleman there, uh, and I think he thinks completely different than I do, but he he actually brought some perspective to me. And he he asked me the question, um, and I don't want to steal his thunder because I I want to have him on the show, but he asked me how much agricultural land is in Canada, and I was shocked by the answer. Um, I I said 18%, and I wasn't even close. I wasn't even close. So you start putting things into perspective that way in in regards to the whole growth thing, and you understand why, you know, we need to protect that agricultural land for sure. Um but at the the risk of us being the savior, um, you know, like back to that blanket rezoning thing where the city of Calgary, um, once we annexed land in 2017, it's my understanding that that blanket rezoning was full on here. So something Calgary just got rid of, we've had for a very, very long time. And I feel with with that, it's changing the demographics of this town and it's changing the communities. And I would say that yes, those that survey was very close. I bet you it's in the very, it's in the 80s and maybe well into the 80s of the people that um are concerned about the the growth and the direction. We don't we don't have the money to build that extra rec center. We don't have the money to put into 32nd uh to upgrade that. We don't have the infrastructure and we won't have it if we're servicing a debt of 65 million dollars. So let's let's figure it out, let's find a way, but I don't think, like you say, we've put all of our eggs into one basket, and that's the growth. And if that doesn't happen, now what? Wouldn't it be better if we had a different strategy? And again, back to June 3rd. There's so many people that have so many great ideas, but just don't want to be hurt. Let me give you an example. I've I've um now have interviewed him. Uh he's an 81-year-old man that uh talks about tax reform. He put a request into the public library, into uh Okotok's public library to do a seminar. Now, would have would have six people shown up, or 10 or 15 or 20, I don't know, um, to talk about tax reform because most people like tax reform, you know. I envision Homer Simpson sitting in church, drooling, sleeping, uh, when it comes to conversations like that, right? Um but here's somebody that wanted to do that. Um, he didn't get a reply. Finally, he pushed him a little bit, and a few days later he got an email back saying, denied. No reason. No reason. Well, here's somebody that could have had, I don't know if I don't know if his concept works, but here's somebody that has an idea. And isn't the library supposed to be about that? Where you go to the library and you present new ideas, and I don't think he was, I don't think he had anything that like I maybe it just was something that the town didn't agree with and they denied his request for whatever reason. Um I'd like to find out about that, but the the library certainly does promote um different religions, uh they promote different uh social ideas at the library. Um, I think the library should be open to most residents that aren't promoting anything all illegal.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

That's that's what it always comes down to. No, I would agree. Look, I I I understand that our local local politicians, I've said it a million times, uh, these are our neighbors, they're they're doing their best. Um I I think I think when any of us are questioned about our thoughts, uh, I've been questioned many times in my life uh about my decisions and and about about directions, we we tend to get very, very defensive about them. And I'm sure that I'm sure that our our our officials have run across that one person that that just won't leave them alone and they'll come in and swear blue is black, and it's a very, very difficult job. And and I think I think honestly, like the the people have as much to answer for as our politicians to why that disconnect is there. Um but I think it's gonna take a politician to break that disconnect to to start re-engaging with the public's vision and and where they want to live. I I I believe people move to Okotokes to get out of the high density areas to to have that more space and that connection to to nature. And I think Okotokes up until this point has done a very good job of of of being that, and and I I worry about high density. Uh for sure. Uh looking at all of the markers that are coming from Ontario that's been in that high density drive for such a long time and they're now bailing out these developers. And at the behest, I think you mentioned that the mayor had said to you that it was them that was driving that density. Yeah. So then maybe the government is responsible for bailing those developers out when those densities don't become occupied. And I I would I would worry about that if I was an Okotokian as well. And it really is now if the population is not writing to their elected officials, how will they ever know? At the same time, I would encourage people to be constructive when communicating. You know, if you if you go in yelling and screaming, which I know you you didn't do and your your group didn't do, Carlin, if you do that, you are going to switch these people off. And I I don't blame them for that. So I think I think it's now a matter of sheer numbers uh to get that point across. And I think that your your council council might feel threatened by just a few voices, but if they know they've got the power of the people behind them, I think they would make the right decision. Like at least I would hope they would.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Yeah, well, and no doubt it's it's the history because uh and again, full disclosure, I I have lived with my head in the sand for a long time. Um until something inconveniences people, they're not really gonna get off their butts and and do something. But, you know, my my short history uh in this whole growth kick is you know, showing houses in Wedderburn and DRC seeing some major mistakes. Um Hopewell then comes out and says, we're gonna put a thoughtful community together. And um, it was kind of game on because it's just like things didn't really seem to make sense. But I feel that the uh council is sick and tired of this conversation, and rightly so. Um, but um has council done what it needs to do in order to bring people along to understand? And like I said, if there was, um, I'm not trying to badmouth anybody, but I'm just trying to bring a clear picture that I believe that a clear picture would have been presented if there was a change in administration, because it'd be like, here it is, this is where we're at, this is what we need to do, or else very clear, as opposed to um a group of people just kind of continuing on as the way that it is, right? Um it and again, like I like I I I started my whole speech off to council uh saying that I do appreciate them because this is this is not an easy task. Um it's not it's not a fun task, but is there is there some kind of think tank? Is there some kind of something that the town can set up that you can book a 15, 20 minute session with somebody, and all that person does is listen. And then that person takes the information that this person, you know, kind of determines okay, is this something of worth value that we can take to the next level? Or can this person direct somebody to talk to in town that doesn't have to go through counsel to get their questions answered? But I do believe that people just want to be heard. The example that I always bring up is the whole trucker convoy, not getting into that conversation with you right now, Paul, whether that was a good thing or a bad thing. That's not why I'm bringing it up. But if Justin Trudeau would have sat down, ordered some pizzas, and uh said, Hey, let's talk it out. Like, here's and and just you know, not in the authoritative council chambers or you know, parliament chambers or whatever, but just ordered ordered in, kind of a lounging experience, and just casually talked to the people and said, Here, this is guys, this is why I'm doing this. But uh it it he instantly deemed them as bad. And I don't think there's anybody on either. Side of this debate that are bad, we're all passionate about this town and we want to see what's best. But wouldn't it be great if we didn't put all of our eggs into the growth basket and we found a way to save save costs to, you know, and I know that you're not all of a sudden gonna look under the couch and find $65 million. But uh yeah, like if it was just simply uh sit down and let's talk and let's let's speak and you know, people are actually heard. I think that would go a long way, as opposed to, yeah, we've heard this before, right? And I and I do think we all need to be accountable, including me, accountable for my for my words. And if I do say something wrong, I'd love for someone to to pinpoint that. Um, you know, in that in that meeting, um I did say that I I feel that council was saying some things that wasn't necessarily true. That from the town was coming that, well, growth can't be stopped. Um and as a matter of fact, it could. Uh also in that meeting, uh something was said that Airdrie's growing at 10%, Cochrane's growing at 8%, Chestermere's growing at 12%, but from everything, and I and I could be wrong, but everything that I find right now, Paul, I see that you know, Airdrie's at 4.5 to 5%, Chester's at 4 to 5%, you know, according to the uh town's growth strategy here in Okatoks, we're at three to four percent, Cochrane three to four percent, and Calgary is two to two point five percent. But that was shared, you know, that that basically, uh, you know, to my point, like, okay, other towns maybe, maybe maybe we don't care what other towns are doing. Maybe we just care what Okatokes is doing. Okatokes is different. I think we all feel that Okatok's different. I talked to a guy last uh last week uh on my podcast, and he said, Yeah, he looked into Airgy. They're looking at Eargy, they toured around there and they're like, no, we just we don't want to move. It's basically like a a part of Calgary right now. That's right. And uh I just think we can be different. Like, let's be different. Let's let's let's allow Okotokians to think outside the box to realize, okay, we got this debt that we need to take care of, and is our only answer the off-site levies that the developers are gonna pay.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Well, that's right. And I I I think you know, when you look at that debt, it equates to about $2,000 per man, woman, and child in Okoto. So that's a lot of money when you know you're thinking of a household of three or four people, that's eight thousand dollars per home, which is you know, I'd say probably more than most people's annual property tax bill. And a lot of that goes to fire and schools and policing and and all of the other things that that are in there. So I'd say it's quite a significant debt load uh to to carry. I I always worry about debt because somebody has to pay it out. And I don't like people taking out loans in my name, particularly for speculative projects. And I understand that a certain amount of this becomes speculative. When I look at what some other municipalities do, even across our province, and we look at Medicine Hat, you know, quite often they have been the developer of the land. So that money, that that money, which is where most a lot of the money in in actually building new communities come from, come from the developer aspect. You know, when I look at again, Medicine Hat, um they they produce uh uh their own gas, you know, they got they got a they got a lot of good things in it of programs that have taken place there to make their growth uh sustainable.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Yes, I I I'd love to have someone from the town or from the city of Medicine Hat on to talk about that, to talk about how realistic that is. Now, since we last chatted about this, um the I've found out that the Medicine Hat is kind of uh reclaiming all their gas sites and they're kind of folding up their, you know, but I think for a time being, it it worked, it worked for them. Um, but yeah, the idea of the town becoming the developer, now I'm sure there's some certainly some major hurdles with that and some major responsibilities. But if you you got one development that you're working on um just to see, because again, like what are like what are the kind of the profits the developers are making? And maybe with that those profits could be turned right back into the the debt of you know that we're carrying right now. And then we're all can breathe. Because I feel, I feel because there's no room for conversation on this, there's the town council is kind of hitting the panic button. Like, oh my gosh, if we don't grow to this, we're screwed.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Right, that's right. And you're relying off the off-site levies and and all of those other things to make up the infrastructure. I mean, growth should pay for growth. I I think one of my main concerns right now is that we're not growing like we were, you know, when I when I look at Alberta's figures, you know, if we're growing at 60,000 people like we were back in July of 2023, um, then there might be an argument that growth would pay for growth. But you know, I look at some of the most recent quarters with three to five thousand people uh as a net migration into Alberta. I think that putting all of your eggs in a basket that we're gonna build it and they will come, or build it and he will come, depending on on which phrase you remember. Um I think I think that that's dangerous. I I I don't know how growth is gonna pay for growth under our current migration into Canada, not just Alberta, and Alberta is being one of the least hit provinces. In fact, it's for the inter-provincial migration, Alberta is still the highest. And even with that, you know, in the last quarter, the the second to last quarter of 2025, we could only muster 3,700 new people into Alberta. How much of those are gonna come to Okotokes, you know, as a as a as a percentage of the population? And unless this figure changes drastically, which it may not, um, then I I would be very, very worried being an Okatokian, knowing that my government has took $2,000 of debt out in my name for for future growth. And I do think that it's important that people get engaged with their local council and and maybe maybe they're not aware of these numbers or they haven't looked at the net migration in into Alberta. I mean, I do know that there's been a slow in 20% less new home bills this year than in 2025. Um, but when you look at the cut of the population, you know, it's it's 90% less population coming into Alberta. So 20% doesn't cut it, it would need to be 90% to to to even it out. I just I see so many indicators to be worried about. I I I do think that engagement with your local council is so important what you've been doing, Carlin. I mean, sometimes it feels like they they might not be listening, but maybe they are. Um but the more people that can do this, the more people that you can get involved and behind you to have constructive conversations, uh, not not obstructive with with those representatives, the better. And yeah, I I I think that there are other options. I I think Medicine Hat has has been a shining example of of some of those. The average the average tax for a home in Medicine Hat is much lower, but also the average price of a home is much lower. I mean, let's not forget the the local taxes uh rely somewhat on your house going up in value, being overvalued, uh or to the highest value that it can, and then they don't need to put the mill rate up as high. I mean, there's a lot of hidden hidden numbers where where some municipalities have been a raving success, it might not show it so much through their figures because their overall increase on their homes hasn't been in as much. I always look at the bottom line, and the bottom line is that the medicine hat um taxpayer is paying less for their home, um, regardless of of what it's worth, to that county to sustain that population. And I think that that's an important metric to look at. And and and if unless you and unless the other Okotokians feel like that, I just I worry for your traction, Carlin.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Well, yeah, for sure. And you know, I know that there's other solutions and things to think of. And I know that, you know, for years I was always concerned because, you know, uh being born and raised in uh Saskatchewan, they had a lot of uh government run, like SaaS Power, SAS TEL, uh, you know, SAS Gas. And, you know, uh sometimes they weren't run very efficiently. We lost a lot of money because of the way that we're running things, but maybe there's a way that we could, you know, other solutions. Like I know that back to the uh CAO uh Chamber of Commerce uh and the mayor breakfast in January, they mentioned that Cochrane tax Cochrane's taxes were cheaper. Um, well, it's because what was privatized was the running of the facilities. So you had your pools and you had your ranks. Well, that was all farmed out to a private organization, and that ended up saving the taxpayers some dollars. Well, maybe I know that would be painful, but sometimes there has to be what what I I don't know if the I don't know if people might not know this word, but cutbacks. Right? We're living living within and live within our means, right? Um, you know, we have certain uh businesses that are privatized in town, and um maybe that needs to be looked at. Um, so that's where a think tank, and I'm gonna be producing videos with people in town that have ideas. If you have an idea in town, let's hear it, let's get you on YouTube, you know, whether you get 10 views or 50,000 views, right on, right? Somebody's heard you, right? And uh even me just talking to you about this, Paul, is just therapeutic, right? Because I feel like you hear me, I feel like you're listening, right? And I think that's what people want from town and council. Um that we care about what Okotokians think. We can go back to that slide where it's right on their website. Help us shape this town. Well, do you mean that? If not, take that off, take that down, take that off your website because uh like if you're only gonna collaborate with people that you think with, think the same along the same lines with, I don't think we're ever gonna grow. That goes for me. And I'm about to have some conversations with people in town that I do not think with uh about at all, but I'm willing to expand my horizons and maybe learn something.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

So the best thing is is to be able to disagree in a respectful uh manner that opens your eyes that you may be wrong. Yeah, well, I disagree with that.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

I'm never wrong.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Maybe what your town and council I I mean, I can't imagine that anybody, Carlin, I can't imagine that anybody would do something that they don't believe is in for the best interest of the people that live in Okotok, especially the elected officials that you would imagine would want to be elected again in the future. Uh and it it's not an easy job. It's not an easy job, and uh and it's not a well-paid job either. Like no, no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 56:01

I I I you know what I'm I'm I I'm a advocate that I do believe that uh the mayor and uh council need to be paid more, um, because it's more than like you know, you see them out in the community all the time, they're out taking pictures, they're out doing different things and ribbon cutting, and you know, they're doing all these things, plus then the expectation to uh be on top of what's going on inside the community. So, you know, if there's a way where uh we can actually become a part of the process where it's not just, you know, well, we are elected to do this, where you know, because yeah, I've seen some emails from counselors to residents where it's just like kind of send them pack and like, yeah, thanks for thanks for this. But so I do think that there's some attitudes amongst the town and council where it's just like, yeah, if we if you don't agree with you, we can't yeah, screw off.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Yeah, like I said, pride's a wonderful thing. I mean, it's it's difficult when somebody's trying to tell you something that you don't agree with. Uh I that's why I like to present figures and and actually and actually talk about it and and who knows um what what the outcome of this is going to be. But certainly again to your listeners, if if you're worried and if if if if you think that Okotokes need to change direction, the only way that's gonna happen is if your counselor receives hundreds and thousands of letters and requests from the Okotokians.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

Yeah, yeah. And I think it was a great thing that we saw all those surveys, people taking time to do those uh citizen-led surveys. But yeah, I think it's uh it goes a long way. And you know, you kind of get your eyes are open wide, but you know, back to some things that have been communicated to people and saying, well, no, this can't be changed, this can't be stopped, this is the way we're going. We've we have a mandate, otherwise we're gonna get sued by the you know, those are those those things aren't true. Um no the it is the people, it is the people that put these people in place and into power, and it is the people that ultimately um get to decide. And we want to be part of the process. Yeah. So absolutely, yeah. All right, Paul, appreciate you. Thanks for your time. Thanks for listening to the episode of the Okadokes podcast. If this conversation made you think, don't let it end here. Whatever your opinion is on growth, get involved. Reach out to the mayor, reach out to council, be respectful, be constructive, and let them know what's important to you. Communities are strongest when people participate, not when they stay silent. If you have ideas, solutions, or a perspective you'd like to share, my door is always open. This podcast isn't about creating division, it's about creating conversation. The more voices we hear, the better decisions our community can make. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share it with someone in Okatokes, and leave a review. It really helps the conversation reach more people. Thanks for listening, and I will see you next time on the Okatokes podcast.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

That's it for today's episode of the Okatokes Podcast. Big thanks to Carlin Lutzer Real Estate for making it happen, and thanks to you for listening.