Why Fitting In Nearly Cost Her Business w/ Hunter Myers

What if the biggest thing holding your business back is trying to be someone you're not?

For years, Hunter Myers believed she needed to fit a certain mold to be successful. She built a brand around what she thought clients wanted, leaned into trends that did not feel natural, and found herself performing instead of showing up authentically. It wasn't until she embraced who she really was that her business began to feel aligned, sustainable, and genuinely successful.

In this episode, Hunter shares her unconventional journey from aspiring artist and writer to founder of Verdure Design Co. After earning degrees in English and sociology, moving to Austin without a clear plan, and unexpectedly landing a graphic design role, she discovered a path that blended creativity, storytelling, and human connection. She opens up about the lessons she learned through entrepreneurship, why branding is really about relationships, how community influences buying decisions, and the role boundaries play in building a business that lasts. Along the way, she reveals why treating clients like long-term relationships can completely change the way you market and grow your business. 

If you're ready to build a brand that feels authentic, attracts the right people, and supports long-term growth, this episode is for you.

Connect with Hunter:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hunter-myers-cnxncreativeco/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@cnxncreativeco

Website: https://www.cnxncreativeco.com/

Chapters:

00:40 The story behind Verdure Design Co.

06:40 Why luxury branding never felt authentic

11:20 Growing into the right brand identity

16:20 How an artist became a brand designer

22:00 Why community matters in branding

33:50 Treating clients like long-term relationships

40:40 Building a sustainable business

42:20 Setting boundaries through your values

46:00 Walking your talk as a business owner

This podcast is brought to you in partnership with Liz Chapman & CO

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hey there, and welcome to Business Over Cocktails. I'm Laura Najar, your host and hype woman, bringing you real talk about entrepreneurship. This is the podcast where we dive into the bold whys, the messy middles, and the game-changing aha moments that lead to success. You'll hear unfiltered stories from entrepreneurs plus bite-sized solo episodes inside the Business Chaser series, where we cut through the noise and get straight to what actually drives sales, visibility, and growth. So whether you're here to get fired up or finally feel seen in your business journey, pull up a seat, pour your favorite drink, and let's have a real conversation. Hi everyone, welcome back to Business Over Cocktails. I'm Laura Najar, your host of this podcast. And today I am joined by a creative powerhouse who's not just designing brands, she's redefining how women show up in business. Hunter Myers is the founder and creative director of Verger Design Co., a brand studio helping service-based women and queer-owned businesses build bold, story-driven brands that radiate confidence and close premium deals. I recently connected with Hunter maybe a few months ago over the summer. And I'm just so excited to learn more about Hunter and all of the things that she's doing, and her website is wonderful. All the things you're doing, Hunter, are great. So I'm excited to learn more about you. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Of course. Thank you so much for having me. I know that when you came onto my podcast, we had a really fun conversation. So I am very excited to continue talking with you. I've very much been looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

So let's do it. We had a really good conversation about leads. Like we were like, and actually, I will say, I literally was gonna message you the other day. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna tell her this. So I'll just say this here now. I was doing engagement for someone. And do you remember how you gave me the idea of we were talking about bad DMs, right? We were talking about cool DMs. Okay, and then you told me to do like a series, like you should just screenshot them and do a series. I'm like, yeah, I totally have done that. And I just like don't do that that often. But I saw a reel the other day, and so this is you're gonna be my inspiration. So I'm gonna tell you this right now. I have not created it yet. I saw a reel yesterday. It was like, if salon booking inquiries were in real life, and it was a video, it was like a reel of someone like coming into a salon, just going to the counters, like how much? And and the the receptionist was just like, Well, like, can you tell me more about like what services you want or whatever? And then like that person that just asks how much is just like staring at them, and then they just turn around and leave the salon because they didn't tell them how much. And I'm like, oh my god, this is so brilliant. I'm going to do this, and hopefully by the time this podcast airs, I have done it. So then no one can steal my idea. But I'm going to do, but I'm, I really want to do cold DMs in real life. Like, yes, instant.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

It would be so funny. And I feel like the number, especially since starting my YouTube channel, the number of cold emails that I receive, like I have never received so many cold emails before in my life. And I'm just like, oh my God, people, what are you doing? What are you doing? So please. And once you make it, please send it to me because it's gonna be so good.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

I'm gonna have a bunch of them. Like, I know that you like you said, like, yeah, you should just start stockpiling these. And like, I know I have screenshots somewhere of like old ones I get, and I'm sure we get them all of the time, but like I'm gonna start doing cold DMs and like because I haven't seen that thing done yet. So I'm totally going to do it. Such a good idea. And props to that salon, I don't know what salon it was. It was on one of my clients' Instagrams that we manage Instagram for, and I came across that reel, and I'm like, oh my gosh, so good. Okay, so I needed to give you a shout out there because I completely forgot I needed to tell you that. But I want to learn more about you. Let's talk about you. So I don't know the word verger. I don't know if that's a popular word. So verger design co. What is behind that name? Yeah, so okay, listen up, folks. Let's buckle in.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Right. I did not follow the cardinal rule. It's one of those like do as I say, not as I do things, right? I did not follow the cardinal rule, which was pick a name that people can freaking pronounce every time. Every time I hop on a podcast or meet someone. And now, luckily, Lauren, you asked how to pronounce it. There have been a number of times where people have started introducing me, have never asked how to pronounce it, and then are just stumbling through, which then is a little awkward for all of us. But also, I'm kind of the, I'm the kind of person where it's like, let's get the awkwardness out of the way first. So let's just like listen, it's not gonna get any more awkward than you trying to figure out how to say this name. But originally, when I was starting the business, I knew that okay, I don't want to use my name. Like, I don't want to be like Hunter Meyer's design co or anything like that. Because if at any point I want to grow this, I don't want to be trapped into just my name. And I like I love plants. And originally, when I was starting things, I was like, okay, well, like I'll kind of have this plant theme. Also, folks, like I am a brand designer. The number of times that I changed my brand before I finally landed on what worked, so many. So many. Okay. So if you are experiencing that, listen, it's normal.

unknown 5:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

But like I picked this name and it means kind of like growth, like plants and growth and that kind of thing. And so I was like, okay, cool. And I'm like, it sounds, it sounds kind of fancy because I thought I wanted to do like fancy branding. I feel like everyone when they're starting out is like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do like high-ticket luxury. The other thing to know about me is like I am the least luxury person on the planet. Like, I don't go into luxury stores. I like thrift almost everything. Like I hate paying full price for things. Like, I am just no. And so I laugh. I laugh at like younger, naive me who just didn't know, right? Like it's just like, well, I need to show up looking like I need to be like everyone else that is out here because they're successful. So that's how I'm gonna be successful. And then in doing so, I actually created a lot of problems for myself that I then had to solve down the line. And I could change the name, but I also feel like I'm so invested at this point. You've dug your heels in. Exactly. I'm like, we're here, we're here now. I've even considered, it's so funny, because I've I've now added the like phonetic spelling on my website. And I'm thinking what I will do, because I've I've been needing to redesign my logo. I redesigned everything else, and the logo has just been the bane of my existence. And so I want to add somehow into the logo, like the phonetic spelling of it. So even if it's just like like crossed, like the regular spelling is crossed out and you see the phonetic sverger. Yes. So that's that's where the name is from.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

I love that. And I love the fact, well, okay, so I'll say this because usually when people come on a podcast, right? And you have your own podcast, you want to always make sure that you're saying the person's name correctly, right? You have a very easy name to pronounce. It's not surprising. But yeah, that is so true that I I guess like I've never considered, like, I don't know how to say your business name. Like that's not something common, right? But I love that you kind of dug your heels and, like, nope, I've gone this far. We're gonna do this. And also, too, so I will say I actually had another brand strategist on. I interviewed her yesterday. I don't know when that podcast will air. And she does high-ticket luxury as well, but she's not a luxury person. I relate to that so much because I say that all the time about myself, where I like nice things. I'm not a luxury person. Like I like fancy things, going out to dinner, maybe getting dressed up every once in a while. But you look in my closet, everything's from Amazon. I have a Michael Kors purse that I got for a gift that like people would like hate me for how much I've taken care of that. Like, it's awful. Like, I cannot, I cannot, so I resonate with that so much. But I think like we had a conversation yesterday with a brand strategist. So I was just like, the word luxury has such loaded meaning. And I think like a lot of people put a price tag essentially to luxury, right? We think that it is the fancy purses and Prada and you know, all of those things. But I do think that, and you can you can kind of give me your thoughts on this, branding itself is not, it's not necessarily gives you like a luxury feel, but it is like it's elevation in a way. And so I think like I associate luxury sometimes with elevating too. And like branding, I feel like branding, even investing in branding, like we as business owners, of course, if you've been around even for a couple of years, you understand how important branding is. But I think that at the very first, when you're starting your business, that is a luxury service to pay for.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

I'd absolutely agree. And I think the elevation is the key there, right? So when I was starting out, I was leaning when I say luxury, like I lean more towards the oh my gosh, like serif fonts and very like muted natural colors, minimalist. Folks, I am also not that. Like, look at me. Look at your shirt, right? Like that is not me. It's not me. And so I agree with you though. Like I agree that luxury, like this is a luxury to have. Like it is a luxury to be able to hire someone to build this. And it does elevate your clients and customers' experience too. And it elevates the way that you are perceived. But I agree that luxury is kind of this loaded term, especially now, right? Where like we think of, like we said, coach, product, gold, minimalism, you know, that kind of thing. And it's not like if I think visual-wise, because that's obviously where I'm gonna think, right? I was just not not that at all. And I can still work with those clients. Like I've got a client in London who is more of like a luxury wellness brand. And like I can work in those spaces, but my problem was I was trying to show up as that. And I felt very phony in my own brand. Like I felt like I was performing. I felt like I was like, we all talk about how we deal with imposter syndrome, right? Like I legit felt like an imposter. I was like, this isn't me. Like, who am I fooling? You know, like I like what am I doing? And it wasn't so I've been running my business now for what, five and a half years. And just over the last year, and especially over, I would say the last six months, I have finally landed where I feel really good about what I'm doing. I am having fun showing up in the brand. I am having fun creating the content and the marketing. There isn't the same kind of friction. And I think that, like, obviously, it doesn't take five years for me to do this for my clients, right? Right. But it's like when you're doing the thing for yourself, you can't see the forest through the trees. Right. Like there is so much that you wind up trying to do when you're doing it yourself that you aren't seeing. And that's one of the things that I think is so great about being able to like have the luxury of bringing in an outside source, outside eyes to look at it and see it from a different perspective. Because when you're in the trenches, I mean, you're in the trenches.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

It's so true. Oh, I have I agree with so much of that. It's interesting, and I love that you just share that because again, I think for me, not being a brand web designer, branding strategist, anything like that. And I've for my brand, I've always worked with someone to help me bring that to life. And I know on my end, I always want to change it. It's like I definitely I'm always wanting to evolve and change it, but that's because I am also learning more about myself and growing and stuff too. And so I think like it's okay that you keep wanting to change it, and that's fine. I'm so glad that you said something about how you've been doing this for five and a half years. And this most recent era that you have, this is when you feel like the most home. It wasn't year one, it wasn't year two. Maybe you have even had moments. But because I think as business owners and we have that growth mindset, we are constantly evolving and growing confidence within ourselves. And also, too, like we want a brand to represent that. And I think the message that I want to just really key in there is like it's not an overnight process, right? Like it's not at all.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Not in the slightest. Oh my gosh. Like sometimes I'll look back at some of even the projects I was doing in the first year and seeing just how much growth has occurred. So I build my website on show it. And what I did before I rebuilt is I saved my original website that I had, like the first website I built there. And sometimes I'll go back and look and be like, damn, girl, you have grown. Great job. Cause I forget. Like, I don't know about you guys listening or even you, Lauren, but like I really struggle with seeing the progress that I have made. Like I am always so forward-focused that I often forget. Like my partner, she's always like, Okay, like I know that you're moving on to the next thing, but let's like pause for a second and appreciate like where you've been. Cause I'll sit there and like freak out, like, oh my gosh, like, I'm not at this next phase yet. What am I doing? I'm such a failure. And she's like, bitch, look, look, look at what you did. Look at what you did. Okay. And so having some of those pieces, which is really helpful, like as a visual business owner, like I can just look at some of the stuff and see it, but really witnessing the growth there, especially in phases of business where like there is a lull or it does feel like you're moving backwards. Like I am kind of in a pivot right now in my own business. Like I'm shifting and trying to do more content creation on YouTube and land more speaking opportunities. And while I still do design work, like there is more of a lull because I'm not putting as much attention in that area. And so with that, like it almost I describe it kind of as a slingshot, right? Like I am pulling the slingshot back. So it feels like I am moving backwards right now. But I have to trust that when the time is right and I release that, I will springboard much farther forward than I would have been and in the direction I want to be going, than if I had just stayed whatever course that was digging me into a rut, you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

I feel like we share the same brain because like everything, all these things that you're saying, I say all of the time. Like I say literally, like step back to spring forward. And I, oh God, like everything that you said, I completely, completely agree with. But shout out, first of all, to your partner, to partners that support us, because my husband calls me out on my BS like that all of the time. And that's so smart of you to actually have the first website you designed and like literally have saved it. Because, like for me, you know, and for maybe any person that's listening, you know, we have created so many pieces of content, right? I'm not creating my website. I remember what it looked like. I don't have it, right? But I don't save anything. Like I can go on Facebook and scroll seven years ago and see, right? I can go and see, like, you know, Instagram and Facebook give us memories and we can see how far. And like that's really nice. I will say too, like, I guess my branding shoots. I've done like five or six branding shoots. So, like, you can see the growth and the evolution from that too. But kudos to you on like having that and like then consciously going back and just being like, no, like, look how far I've come, look how much I've evolved. Look at all of these things that I've learned in the process since doing that versus now. And then even just the clients and the caliber of clients that you probably work with now versus then. That's so true. And oh God, I there's so many directions I want to take this conversation, but I have more questions I want to ask you. So I want to kind of dig into your creative process though, because on your website, you mentioned about like, how do you, I guess, like with strategy intuition, like meetings. So I would love to know more about like your intuition with branding and kind of like why did you decide to get into branding in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 17:36

So I listen, I have been creative my entire life. I tell people, like, I'm pretty sure I came out of the womb wielding some kind of artistic tool, whether it be like a paintbrush, a pen, a pencil, something. And I remember growing up, I was like, oh my gosh, like it would be so cool to be an artist. But there was like a distant cousin or something who went to art school and like the family shit on her for going to art school. And they were like, you know, she was so smart and she could have just invested that time and energy into something that, you know, really could have served her better. I can't believe she went to art school. Now, young, very impressionable, very people pleaser me, was like, well, shit. Looks like I probably shouldn't do art school, I guess. And so then, and I I laugh at myself so much for this because I was like, you know what? Then I'm gonna be a writer because writers make more money than artists, you know, like, okay, Hunter.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Just a little bit more. Just a teensy bit.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

And so originally I went to school for journalism and was like, oh my God, I do not like this enough to be paid so little and scrutinized so much. Like, absolutely not. And so I wound up switching over. I did kind of an interdisciplinary thing for a while where it was like a build your own degree. And in that process, because I was always like leaning towards creativity, but in that process, I took a creative writing class and was like, oh my gosh, I freaking love this. Lauren, you didn't know you were just buckled up for a very long story. My branding. I'm good. Let me tell you about my childhood. So I go to school. I get this degree in English. I also got a degree in sociology because I had already taken enough classes. They were just so interesting to me. And so double-majored there. And I was looking around. I was like, okay, I want to move out of the Midwest. Like I grew up in Missouri, lived in Missouri my whole life, went to school in Missouri. I was like, I want to go somewhere else. Like, I want to go maybe to a big city. The kicker was, though, because I didn't have a job lined up, the city had to have a coyote ugly bar because I was on spring break once and tore it up at one of those. And so I knew that if I couldn't find a job somewhere, I could absolutely sing and dance on a bar to make ends meet. So that was my prerequisite is that whatever city I was going to move to had to have a coyote ugly bar. And so I wound up in Austin, Texas. Okay. And I am there and I am applying for riding job after riding job after riding job and hearing no after no after no. And I'm like, oh shit, like I'm about to have to sing a dance on a bar. Like this is really about to be it. And I found a graphic design position. And at that point, I was like, look, another no is not gonna kill me at this point. Like, I need to just apply. Like, why not shoot you shot? You know? And I did. I sent it over. I had had a portfolio already built, anyways. Like I had done illustrations for my school's newspaper. I had done design work for the US Geological Survey as an internship. Like I had done these things. And I get a call and they're like, we love your stuff. Would you want to come in for an interview? And I'm like, you have to be shitting me. Like, what are the chances? What are the chances? And I go in, I wind up working with this company for a couple of years, and then I get furloughed. And at that point, I was kind of wanting to leave the company anyways, but had gotten myself tangled up in some relationships within the company, and that made it a little difficult. Don't be like me, don't date your boss.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

And so oh my God. FYI, I married my boss.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

It worked out for you at least. But it was, it was a little, you know, it got a little complicated. And so got furloughed. I was like, well, you know what? I've done contract work before. I think I can do this on my own. Like, let's just give it a shot. And originally I was like, okay, well, graphic design is, I feel like, kind of hard to market, just starting out, because there are so many things within graphic design. And I was like, but branding, branding is a specific thing. And this is going to allow me to also tie in that storytelling that I have from English. As well as the kind of human interaction that I learned in sociology and apply this to something from a really unique perspective that not a lot of other brand designers that I have met have. So I was like, okay, let's give it a shot. And there was a learning curve, right? Because up to that point, like I had never done branding specifically. Like I had worked on other people's brands and I had developed them from, you know, a starting point, but I never really reworked one before. And so there was a ton of learning that I did. I did a bunch of like sample projects and things like that. And I remember getting just the first couple of clients who like believed in me enough to let me do it. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I can do this. I know I can do this. Like this is this is it. And I love it. Like I love the again, the storytelling. I love finding patterns and connections. Like I think that's the ADHD brain where like I'm just like constantly scanning for patterns. Again, to bring up my partner. Like she hates playing I spy and stuff with me just because of the way my brain. She's like, can you please stop? Like we're not doing this. And I'm like, but didn't you see it? And do you see this one there, there, there, there, there? And so I do that in kind of this branding and business space. And it's been really, really cool to witness the growth there. And also, though, to see over the last five and a half years, like how the market is changing too. And like how we constantly have to evolve our brands to meet what consumers need. Like we think about right now, right? Like there is way less trust in brands today, especially as more AI is coming out, especially as we are getting to a point where you can't really believe what's real and what's not real. I think, especially in the US too, where we're seeing kind of a lot of fakeness and division and things like that. I think that consumers are a lot more hesitant to engage with a brand and trust them the way that they may have years ago. And so kind of addressing those challenges and learning to move with them and still build relationships with people in a world that seems so gung ho about separation. So it's been really interesting this year, especially.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Oh, yeah. That's a loaded statement right there. But what was I going to say? Oh, I actually have a question for you then about something you said. Have you met other brand and web designers that have a background in sociology?

SPEAKER_01 24:34

I've met a number that have a background in psychology, but not sociology. And the reason I think sociology is especially helpful is that sociology is interaction in groups, which is what is actually happening with a brand. You're building a community, and it is about interacting within a community as opposed to just thinking of the individual buyer. Like we will address and I'll talk with people about like via psychology and things like that. And I think that it is super duper valuable to understand those elements. But I think a lot of people overlook the community aspect and how people interact in a community. And as a brand, if you are looking to build and develop that, your goal is to, or it should be, to foster some kind of community with your customers because you will gain a lot more if they can start interacting with each other and feel like they are part of something than if it is still so siloed.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

The reason why I asked is one of my really good business besties who's designed my website several times has a background in sociology. I love it. We need more of us.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

I know.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

And more. I will say shout out to sociology as well. That was my one of my favorite topics in high school. We had to take sociology class and psychology. And I was good at both, but I feel like sociology was really fun. And like how you just describe that, that's marketing. Like you learn how people interact, like in groups, right? So, like, how can you appeal to the masses? What are behaviors, things like that? And that's not just psychology, but it's also sociology. And I remember that was one of my favorite classes in high school. So I thought it was it was interesting when you mentioned that you had that background because again, like one of my really close business friends has a background in sociology. And then the other trend I'm seeing, and again, this is just off of my conversation yesterday with another brand strategist. She also wanted to be an artist and also was like, no, we don't make a lot of money. So, like, how can I figure out how to become this like graphic designer and like taught herself like not just canva first, of course, but then you dabble into the more advanced, like Adobe and I don't know any of them, but all the ones she she's self-taught because art, you know, unfortunately being an artist isn't going to give you money. But then how do you laser focus not just on graphic design and creating graphics for people? She then became this, you know, brand strategist and implemented her creativity that way. So I think that's just so it's so interesting to see the trends between all the web design and brand strategists. Because I I will say too, like nowadays, I think like you can go to school, right, and learn social media marketing. That wasn't in school. That wasn't anything when I was in college. And I'm pretty sure now graphic design is a little bit more important and you know, all of those elements you can get degrees, I think, in social media marketing or social, you know, just whatever, learning social media marketing, those kinds of things, which is amazing. But I think there's a trend with, you know, an era of maybe like millennials that you can go to school for graphic design, but it was so limited to what you could do. Now you can do anything.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Well, and I feel like too, when you go into entrepreneurship, I call this the fit fo. This is what the first person I worked for, because he was starting his own business is the fit fo attitude, which is figure it the fuck out attitude, right? And I feel like a lot of people who started businesses, especially people who are artists, right? Like, so while I didn't go to art school, like any spare, like I've spent my 10,000 hours, you know, like any spare moment growing up, I was in some kind of art class. I was drawing, like I was doing anything to improve those skills. And I feel like, and this it's actually very funny because I went to a design conference when I lived in Texas and sat down at this table with some other people who had gone to art school and things, and one guy who's actually a teacher. And I had talked about how, like, you know, sometimes I just feel like such an imposter for like not going to this. And he had said, I think it is so much better that you didn't go to art school. Because what you were then able to learn is how to think for yourself. Because in art school, what he was saying is that it's a lot of sometimes even like beating the creativity out of you, like and to fit into these individual like pillars or to do things a very certain way. And I feel like when you are left to learn it on your own, you got like YouTube university, which is just teaching you the skills. Because if you, if you are creative, if you have taken art classes, even just in high school, like you've learned the basics of like like design principles of sorts, right? Because like sometimes you can just kind of intuitively know it. It is what it is. You've learned these things before. And so it's just learning the tools and then practicing to apply them. And so I think it's really cool seeing a lot more like self-taught people in this realm. And I think that there's a lot to be said of the growth that happens there too. Like I, and I'm I'm actually gonna bring up Canva here because I'm not gonna lie. Like, I used to talk so much crap on Canva because it also, folks, did not used to be this good. Like it has gotten so much better. It has gotten so much better. I even use it a lot. And what I like about it is it's so much more accessible. Like the Adobe programs have gotten more and more and more expensive over the years, and they are not necessarily easy to use. Like they are intense. And Canva has made it really, really easy for anybody to make a pretty decent online graphic. Now, I wouldn't recommend Canva for print things. Like it just doesn't have the same capabilities that other programs do. But to get you by, like it's great. And when I first started out, like I was also part of the ridiculous elitist. And I say this because I saw, I literally saw this on threads the other day that, like, if you design in Canva, you're not a real designer. And I was like, oh my God, ew. I also used to say that. God, that's gross. I'm like, oh my God, right? Like, ew, why was I such an awful person? It's like, oh my God, someone help me. But like, I don't, I don't think that's true. Like, you can be a good designer and leverage Canva. You can also be not good at design and use Canva, and you can be not good at design and use Adobe programs too. Like, it is not necessarily the program that you are using that makes you like a creative or an artist or a designer. It is your ability to tell a story, your ability to understand visual hierarchy, and your ability to like understand and grasp how visuals are going to impact the person looking at them. Like that's it, you know? And so I think it's cool that there are more self-taught designers. And I think you're right that there's especially a lot in this kind of millennial generation and group.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

And I mean, I resonate with that a lot because you can kind of take that philosophy into anything, right? I went to school, I have a finance degree, and I'm clearly not doing anything with my finance degree. I was in banking for 10 years, and you know, I had like a lot happen to me, and that's why I started my business. Just like long story short, decided to not work in like toxic finance environments. When I think in college, I was like, yeah, I want to go like be super intense and go on the trading floor and just like, you know, I I equated money with hard work. And now coming on the other side of this, like again, social media management was not a thing when I was in college. Like I was one of the people, and so I don't know if you know this, but I actually was talking to a social media manager the other day, and she's like seven or eight years younger than I am. She did not know, and she is she has her own social media agency. She did not know that you had to have a college email to sign up for Facebook initially. So she was like, What? I've never heard of that. I'm like, yeah, like, so I wasn't the first wave. Like, I think Facebook came out in 2004, 2005. So I graduated high school in 2006. And so I like could not wait to get my college email and get on Facebook because that was like what everyone was doing. And so social media management was not a thing because social media management barely existed when I was in college. And the fact now that yes, there is a degree, you know, almost 20 years later is wonderful and that's the way of the world. But there are so many people who are self-taught to be a social media manager, to be a marketing person based on their own social media usage. I am one of them. I took some marketing classes, right? Like as part of a business degree, as part of a finance degree. Obviously, most of my classes were finance and accounting, but I had to take a few economics and marketing, but I don't have a marketing degree. I don't have even an associate's degree. I am self-taught all the way. And so I think like you can take a lot of that. Like my brother-in-law, he I feel like he graduated high school. Either he graduated high school or has his GED and he went on to start a bunch of businesses his whole life, you know, starting mortgage companies, you know, was a broker. And so I think like that philosophy is so true in all aspects, right? Like we hear that all of the time with entrepreneurship is figure it the fuck out. Like, just like you said, be scrappy. And if you have that drive and that, you know, the drive to just keep going and figuring it out on your own. Like, I think like some of the best people we know in their fields did not go to school or have a million certifications, right? And so it's like, it's proven every single day we don't need all of these certifications and credentials to like actually do a good job.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Well, I in my five and a half years of running the business, I have had one person ask me if I had a degree in this. One person. And that's it, you know. And before even starting, I was like, oh my gosh, like, is it gonna be a problem that I didn't go to art school? Like, are people gonna out me? Like, what's gonna happen? And just one person asked, and that's it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So think about that, people.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Yeah, yeah. You mentioned about like storytelling with a brand, right? And that's something that you do. What makes a brand truly powerful in your mind?

SPEAKER_01 35:22

I mean, I feel like relationship building, like your ability to form a relationship, which is actually why I developed my brand matchmaker method and like my four-part client attraction framework that I take my clients through and everything, like that is so based on the concept of romantic relationships, and that we need to start treating our customers the same way that we treat romantic partners. Like the goal in if we think of like a monogamous relationship, right, which is what we oftentimes see in movies. It's what many people I feel like experience and can at least like pinpoint an example of the goal being, right, like a marriage, a long-term relationship that is happy and successful and mutual and all of that. And what I have found is that a lot of businesses, and understandably so, right? Like we get caught up in this. Well, I have to make money, you know, because that's that's part of business. But it winds up being very transactional. And we're not thinking about the long term because we're so focused on making sure that like our bills are paid. So it's like, okay, well, I've got this person. You paid me cool. I need to find the next person. But I'm sure some of you listening, or maybe many of you do, like customer lifetime value plays a huge part in your marketing and how much you are going to wind up spending on marketing in the long term based on, again, like this value of the customer. And so if you don't know what it is, customer lifetime value is the total amount of money that a customer is going to spend with your business over their, we'll call it again, lifetime interacting with your brand. And if you can increase that, you are able to then decrease the amount of money and energy that you are spending on your marketing efforts. Or depending on how you want to scale your business, you can increase your like profits and overall size. And for that to work, you have to build long-term relationships with these clients because it is so much easier to get a client to like buy from you a second time than it is to find a new client who's never bought from you at all. And so I think the most valuable thing that a brand can do is treat their customers like a romantic partner, court them, figure out how you can create chemistry with them, set the mood. Like you want them to buy from you, you've got to set the mood so that it is easy for them to do so. And then once they have purchased from you, you have to maintain that happily ever after. You know, we all hear this like your marriage doesn't end at the altar, like the courting process doesn't end at the altar. Like if you want this to work, you have to keep working on it past that marriage. And you have to do the exact same thing with your customers. And if you can start reframing the way that you view them and tell yourself this story that, okay, if this was someone that I was trying to date, how would I treat them? What would I need to do to get them through these phases? What kind of first impression do I need to be making? How do I need to flirt with them to get them interested in learning more about me? Like, what is my type? I'm not trying to attract everybody at the bar. Who am I trying to target? Like when we can reframe how we view our brands like this, it makes branding a lot less overwhelming because it is something we already have experience in. Like we have experienced this one way or another. And when we're already wearing all these new hats, right, in business, it can get really overwhelming trying to do something new. And so all I am telling you is think about your customers like you would a date. They are just a person. I know we talked about this on our podcast. Like when you market someone or you're trying to do leads, like talk to them like you would someone in line at the coffee shop. You know, like they are a person. Treat them like a person and work on building a relationship, a genuine relationship with them. And you will be amazed at the success your brand will have.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

I second all of that. Yes, yes, yes. I again, there's so much symmetry in what you're saying versus like the things that, you know, just in marketing in general, right? It's it's a lot cheaper to go after current clients and even like an engagement lesson is, you know, we think about lead generation, and that's something that I love talking about. It's, you know, part of lead generation is engaging with current clients, past clients, and even your peers. It's not all about finding the new people all of the time. It's important to engage with those people. It's important to engage with new people and find new leads in that thing to enter them into your funnel and stuff like that. But like I love that you hit home on like, yes, it is a long-term thing. And, you know, I have several people, and I know that you get a lot of referrals as well. Like, there's several people over the last five years that have sent me countless referrals, and they've probably made, because I do like a referral incentive. So they've probably made close to like $5,000 just by referring people to me. So, like, there's so much benefit and so much reward on both ends to have that relationship. And it makes life so much easier for you, makes business so much easier and more sustainable as well. I feel absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

And I think the sustainability part is huge. We're doing so much, and we're being, we're being told from like all angles, do more, do more, do more. And I'm out here being like, listen. We can't, okay? Like, I'm neurodivergent, I've got X amount of energy, and that's it. And my focus is sometimes really hard to direct. Like I spent, oh my God, I spent so many hours last night. I told, oh my gosh, what was it? I told, I told my partner, I was like, dude, I was so cracked out on creativity last night. It was intense. I could not, I could not stop. But like with that in mind, you've got to find a way to make business sustainable for you. And forming these relationships and nurturing these relationships is the way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

The other important thing that I noticed, you had a really good post a while ago, maybe not a while ago. I don't know the date that you posted this, but it's about boundaries. And so since we're talking about sustainability, I wanted to ask you that question is what's been the biggest lesson in not only building that sustainable business, but having those boundaries and not feeling guilty of having boundaries?

SPEAKER_01 42:06

As I mentioned earlier on, I uh struggle with people pleasing a lot. And boundaries has been something that I have been working on really, really hard in my personal life, in the business over the last couple of years, but especially this year in particular. And I always like, I'm gonna talk about values because I always heard like the term value-based decision making. And like I felt like it was very, like it felt very flashy, it felt very cool, but I never really embodied it. And I had a situation with a friend who is no longer a friend who entered a business partnership and agreement with me. And I felt very much disrespected me and past me would have been so concerned about like the money side of it and just smoothing things over and making sure that, like, oh, you know, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. But I started sitting there and it's like, like, I value integrity and I value honesty and I value communication. And I have upheld all of those values in this interaction and have been met with to me what felt like dismissive remarks, disrespect, statements that I like, I guess allegations that I don't run my business in integrity, which is not at all true. And that like hit like a tank. And I was like, no, no, because I do, I do value. And what has caused this in the first place is the fact that I value that so much. And I did choose a set of boundary. I was like, you know, look, I I work really hard to be respectful with my clients and to make sure that they understand what I'm doing and what we are doing, and I don't. Tolerate dismissive remarks like this. And I don't tolerate being treated like this. And because of that, like this partnership will come to an end. I am going to continue, like, there are still things that I promise to deliver you, and I will deliver those, and they will still be at the same quality of work that you received previously. But after that, I will not be available for any more work together. So please do not, you know, ask. I do wish you the best in your projects. Like I think what you are doing is really cool, and I've really enjoyed like the project part of this partnership, but I do not tolerate being treated this way. And that was hard. Like I was scared. Like, I don't know about you guys, but like I feel like me and anxiety are really close friends. Okay. Same. Right. Same. And like I like feel the buzzing in my body. So I've got BPD, so borderline personality disorder. And anger is one of the emotions that I am very quick to jump to. And so over many, many years of therapy, I have learned how to pause, right? Deal with that myself in whatever way I need to, and then come back so that I'm not dragging other people into that. And so I'm not acting in a way like that is rash. And I then have to deal with the consequences later, right? And so I was really proud of myself for the way that I handled that. And I was proud of myself for the boundary that was set. And because the boundary was set in my values, because I understood my values, I knew that I made the right decision. Even though I experienced the anxiety, even though I was worried about have I upset somebody? Am I a problem? I could go back to those values and be like, no, I stood in every single one of these things that I value. I upheld every single one of those. And the thing that I've been working on with I have a wonderful mentor, her name is Jamie, is when we set boundaries and when we uphold those boundaries, we are also building trust in ourselves that we can do so. And in going through this very uncomfortable situation that had consequences that, you know, make me sad, right? Like I hate to lose a friend. Like I think in my entire life, I have maybe cut off four friendships. I'm 30 years old. Like I really, really value my friends and the relationships that I build and I work really hard to maintain them. And so even though it hurt, I knew that I did the right thing. And I know that if a situation comes up again like that, I will stand in my values again and deliver on those. And I felt really proud too that I was like, okay, like this is the exact thing that I'm telling my clients to do, and I am doing it. And I think that's been another like theme of this year is walking my talk. Like I feel like we have a tendency to what is what do they say? Like people who can't teach, right? Or something like that. People can't who can't do teach. Yeah, something like that. And I'm like, wait a second, this is this is bullshit. No, because we also need to do. If we're gonna teach, we need to do. Yeah. Yeah. And so I've been leaning into more of that in my business. And you can even see it in my branding. Like, I gave a presentation at a summit the other day and was just like, no, like I'm leaning full speed into who I am and this brand. And we're gonna get weird and we're gonna have fun. And it was so much more successful that time than it was the first time that I did it when I like softened everything and kind of muted it down. And I think that it's just those kinds of things this year I'm really proud of that I'm I'm walking my talk. I am doing what I tell my clients to do, and I am getting to see not just through their success, but through my own, that this stuff really does work.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Mm-hmm. Uh, mic drop moment right there for you. I think. You know, it's I love everything that you said. I feel like we're we're just scratching the surface on a lot of these things. And so I wish we could talk for like actually a side note. I really want to just be like the Joe Rogan podcast where he has like three or four hour conversations. Like so that would be so fun. Just like blood yesterday. Yeah, come on, let's just keep talking. Because I honestly feel like we could keep talking. And I had so many other questions to ask, but you'll just have to come back on for sure.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

But thank you so much. Can you tell us how we can connect with you? Is the best way?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Absolutely. So you can DM me if you want to like reach out to me personally on Instagram at Verger Design Co. Lauren will put that in the show notes because Lord knows I know no one can spell it. So don't worry. And I'm also working really, really hard to grow my YouTube channel. So I have stopped posting a lot of content on Instagram. I still interact in the DMs, they're all beyond stories every so often, but I've really moved my content creation over to YouTube. I obviously, folks, am a talker. Like clearly through this thing, you can tell that I'm a talker and I was really struggling to fit things into my 90-second reels. So I was like, you know what? This isn't the platform for me. But if you want to interact with me over on YouTube, I'm looking to grow more there. It is also at Virtua Design Co. So same thing, keeping it easy for you guys and LinkedIn as well, if you're on LinkedIn. And then obviously threads, which is linked through. I'm I'm more of a lurker on threads though. Like, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I just I love, I love seeing what's there, but I'm like, I don't know what to put here.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah, I truly have not posted on threads, and like every once in a while I'll go and see a post because it gives you like a notification, like you might be interested in this. I just like don't know. I can't find my footing. I don't know because I've never been a Twitter girly either. Like I've never posted on Twitter. So like I just like don't know what to say. Like, and I think kind of like you two, like I like to show up on stories on Instagram and just like talk.

unknown 50:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Yep, I get it. So yeah, I get it. Yeah, like I was never on Twitter, and so I feel like threads, threads is like my second chance. You know, it's like, okay, well, I'll at least, I'll at least indulge in the in the stalking, you know, in the like snooping part.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay, awesome. Thank you so much, Hunter. So Hunter's gonna be back later this week for our business chaser segment. She will be going in depth on her topic and make sure you tune in. And of course, like she said, all of her stuff will be in the show notes. You don't have to worry about spelling verger. We will have that spelled out for you, even phonetically in the show notes. So thank you so much. It was so awesome to talk with you today. Yes, thank you. This has been a blast. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Business Over Cocktails, where real stories and bold business moves come to life. If this episode lit something up in you, share it with a friend, tag me at Lauren Najar or the podcast page at Business Over Cocktails. Make sure to leave a quick review as well. It helps more than you know. Until next time, keep chasing what matters and building the business that feels like you. Cheers.