It All Began on the Fourth of July: How Two Engineers Launched a Firm

In the inaugural episode of PGA’s 'Breaking the ICE' video podcast, co-founders Gordon Greene, PE and Hiren Patel, PE recounts the origins and growth of Patel, Greene and Associates (PGA). They explore the firm's beginnings, starting at PBS&J, key moments leading to the establishment of PGA, and major milestones— early project wins and launching new service lines. The duo introduces the company's core values of Integrity, Commitment, and Excellence (ICE), the invaluable support from family, early hires that fortified the PGA Team, and lessons learned along the way. With a strong emphasis on business development and relationship-building, they reveal their passion for engineering, culture, and business, which continues to drive PGA forward.

Tune in to hear from:

• Gordon Greene, PE | Co-Founder & Executive Vice President (Host): He’s the embodiment of a competitive spirit, and that motivation has powered his drive as an engineer, business owner, and civic volunteer for the past 25 years. He also loves talking to people about how these interests converge! Come join the conversation!
• Hiren Patel, PE | Co-Founder & President: Hiren has built a strong reputation for himself and PGA through championing unparalleled client service and quality work firmwide. After 26 years, he remains in the trenches of PGA’s day-to-day operations and business development and continues to serve clients directly as a project manager.

Check out behind the scenes footage and more moments at www.patelgreene.com/breaking-the-ice/

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Transcript

Introduction to Breaking the ICE

Gordon Greene, PE: Welcome to Breaking the ICE. We're Patel Greene and Associates, and we are here to tell stories about our three favorite things, business, culture, and engineering. Let's get to it.

All right, well, welcome to the inaugural, uh, PGA podcast of which we're calling Breaking the ICE. That's a little bit of play on the words. Uh, for our ICE core values, which stand for integrity, integrity, commitment, and excellence. Um, and we wanted to get a podcast going so that you all could get to know us a little bit better.

We could talk about what's going on at PGA and some of the things that we do. Uh, really we just wanted to create more time where we could hang out with each other. So, uh, that's really what we're doing in this first one. Uh, thought we'd make it easy on ourselves and, uh, it's just me and Hiren. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So, uh, we're gonna talk a little bit today about how PGA got started, uh, some of those early days.

Really just kind of walk down memory lane, tell some stories on each other [00:01:00] and, uh, you guys get to just listen in. So, um, I think we'll just kind of get rolling and, uh, so 

Hiren Patel, PE: let's do it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Talk a little bit about, um, how we got started, you know, not even PGA, but, uh, how we, you know, met each other and kind of, uh, got going and got this idea to start PGA.

So, um, I dunno if you wanna get that, that story started. 

From Drainage Dudes to Founders

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah, I mean we were both at PBS&J. Great place to work, um, in the Tampa office. That's where I was and met Gordon, I think in 2004 is when you came over to learn drainage from the Bartow office. And I was already in drainage, started in roadway.

Um, so I got to start working with Gordon on, uh, a few projects like Corkscrew. Uh, got to really see how he worked and got to really learn a lot from working with him. Um, 'cause we were the ones kind of just working on the projects before we go to, uh, the gurus of drainage that we called them, you know, before we went to, Hey, how do you [00:02:00] do this?

We actually try to do it ourselves, you know, so gotta really got to know Gordon a lot from 2004 on, uh, before we started the firm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I think, uh, I think I'll take one quick step back. Uh, I guess Hiren and I so familiar with each other. Uh, some of you listening to this may not actually know who we are, so, um.

Obviously this is Patel Greene and Associates, and um, for those of you may not know, we started PGA, so Gordon Greene Hiren Patel co-founders. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, uh, yeah, now, you know, so hiring's got us back in 2004. Um, uh, maybe a good opportunity especially for you, uh, young engineers out there. Um, that's what we were at the time.

I mean, we were a few years outta school. Um. I guess I was really fresh outta school in 2004, and like Hiren said, the only reason that I was over in Tampa is because, uh, I wanted to learn drainage. I was in [00:03:00] Bartow, Florida in the PBS&J office, and they didn't have a real big design practice in that office there.

They, at least for roadway or transportation, um, they were mainly focused on serving District One through the GEC contract and. So I did do some work through there, but um, I wanted to expand and my only option was to go to, to Tampa. Uh, and I didn't move, so I made that commute. Um, so that's a little bit of a sacrifice.

That's, you know, some of the things that you do coming up to, um, to kind of get ahead and, uh, make yourself, you know, more valuable and to learn more and to, to hopefully be successful. Um, it was just, you know, just extra fortunate that when we got over there. Of course we had no idea at the time. We just enjoyed working with each other.

Um, you know, I think appreciated how hard we worked on stuff. You know, we were of similar mind, just like getting the job done and, and having a good time and joking [00:04:00] around. And yeah, we, we got, you know, pretty close, pretty quick, um, in the trenches like that, uh, work, working, uh, hard on stuff. Um. And so yeah, we did that for a while.

I was over there for like three years. Yeah. Working on Crosstown connector. That kept me very, very busy. Very busy. Um, and I know, I think I tell people, um, I don't know, I'm not really bragging at all. It was kind of rough actually. But, uh, I went a long time without seeing my house in the daylight, uh, working on some of those projects over there.

Um, 'cause it was, you know, a ways to get over and that job was so huge. Um, but that's how some of these bonds are kind of solidified. You actually worked, not just me and you, but with some of the people we're still work, you know? Yeah. A lot with, um, 

Hiren Patel, PE: you even worked with Kashmira on a project. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I knew her before I knew you. I think so. Uh, at least closer. Yeah. Working on 275. Um, still the better half, 

Hiren Patel, PE: I believe that. [00:05:00] 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, so anyway, I don't, we wanna zoom, zoom ahead a little bit, um, or you tell a little bit more of your story. Um. That was it really? We were just over there working. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. I think it was more the, you know, working with each other and bouncing ideas or solutions and really got to know Gordon a lot from those days and how he operated and we really just compliment each other really well on, on projects or just, just got along even on.

Just normal stuff, you know, like football or tv. But you know, things like that come up. And we just got along as a friend, friendship, and also as really good coworker that really helped strengthen our bond from like O4 to when we started the firm in 11. Yeah. So, yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, over that time we figured out, you know, it wasn't just work ethic, it was, you know, kind of worldview and we, you know, family life was pretty similar and there's just a lot of common interests and a lot of commonality, but.[00:06:00] 

Pbs, we mentioned PBS&J. I mean, that was a really great place to work, you know, certainly back then they were, um, I mean, they were the top dog for sure. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, you know, and some things happened at PBS&J. Um, and it, it changed a little bit, uh, you know, enough to where, you know, we thought, um, about, you know, what other options could be.

You know, and I, I had gone through and gotten an MBA. Never with the intention of, of starting my own company. I really just wanted to be a better manager and better leader at, at PBS&J. Um, but it was good, good knowledge to have. I did open my eyes to some things, but it was really kind of after that, that little bit of change where, um, that idea kind of form, I think you found.

Well, I wish we had like the original emails. Of course, a lot of the conversations were just, you know, you and I talking, but. Yeah. Um, you know that that idea was born pro, probably 2009, 2010. Yeah. Um, and you [00:07:00] know, we just kind of kept that conversation going for at least a year, I think feel like over a year, um, you know, kind of off and on workload would pick up and, you know, we wouldn't maybe work on it for a while, but wouldn't ever go too long before we'd, you know, get back to it and make sure we were making some progress.

Um. But man, there were just, uh, you know, so many good things that we, we took away from PBS&J. And of course, at this point we've, we've got a lot of folks at PGA that, um, that were a, a part of PBS&J, uh, from those old days. And, um, I, I feel like a lot of the really good parts of what made PBS&J great, uh, culture-wise, we have been able to incorporate.

And of course we've added plenty of our own. You know, touches to things and, you know, we're our own thing obviously. But, uh, it was a major influence. But, you know, that said, you know, it, it, it had changed a little bit for us to where, um, you know, we wanted to give it a shot and see, you know, maybe we could do it on our own.[00:08:00] 

And, and then we finally did, uh, really the, the, the acquisition. Uh, I think probably most people, if, if engineers are listening to this, which I guess is our primary audience, um, and they've been around a little while, um. You know about PBS&J getting acquired Atkins? Well, I guess about as long as we've been around.

So 13, 14 years ago. Um, and so that, that felt like a good point for us to, to kind of make our move, um, since we were already kind of planning to do that. And, uh, yeah, so we did. Um, and man, we were, we were pretty nervous about that. You know, we were, we were young. I was 29. 

Hiren Patel, PE: You're still young. 

Gordon Greene, PE: You were. 34. Um, my kids were, I think two and four. And yours would've been 1, 3, 5. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yep. 1, 3, 5. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So some people thought we were crazy. Um, probably, uh, but our family supported us. [00:09:00] Um, although they might have been more nervous than we were, I think at that, at that point we were, we felt pretty good about it, uh, even though we were nervous, but, um, others might not have been so confident. But, um. But we were ready to do it. 

From Goodbyes to New Challenges: Why You Never Burn Bridges

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, I can remember, um, you know, when we, when we did decide to, to finally tell our folks, you know, our, our, you know, of course again, a lot of these people are here now, uh, you know, David Long. So he, he's, he's an owner at PGA now. He's been with us for a while. Uh, back then he, he ran the Bartow office of PBS&J and, um.

And he'd been a mentor for, to me, I mean, still is, but certainly back then, pretty much since I joined the industry in like 2000. Um, so o over 10 years at that point. Um, and, and pretty close. And those were the toughest to, to, to talk to. Um, but of course, you know, if y'all know Dave, and, and it didn't really [00:10:00] surprise me.

He was, he was very supportive. Um, obviously sad to see us go, but. But very, uh, supportive. And I know when we went over to, to Tampa, 'cause you know, that's where Hiren was and I still had kind of some bosses over there. Um, everybody was, was pretty supportive, I would say. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, but a couple stood out, uh, and, and one was another, uh, guy that's, that is with us now at PBS&J at, uh, PGA.

Um, and that's Joe Hitterman. I can remember. I think he was technically my boss at the time, um, over in Tampa. 'cause I was kind of managing people over there at the time. And, uh, he was like, he was over the moon. He was, he was like visibly excited for us. Um, and that always stuck with me. Um, so I'm glad we got joked with us now.

But, um, yeah, so that, that was um, that was an interesting time for us and that was kind of tough 'cause we'd both been there for [00:11:00] a decade or more. Um, I think. Almost 10 years, I think you, yeah, you had more than 10 years. I think I was, 

Hiren Patel, PE: well I started in 2000. Yeah. So 2011 years. But, 

Gordon Greene, PE: um, so pretty, pretty tough.

Uh, only place I ever worked before we started. P uh, same PGA. I'm gonna call it PBS&J few more times if we won't move on. Um, and then as we got started, they were pretty supportive as well. I think. Uh, I could name a few projects, but I know, um, you were mentioning something earlier. About, uh, really easing us in.

I mean, we we're, we're, I think we'll cover some of that now is, um, you know, I, I'd like to think we would've made it regardless, but PB&J and, and the leaders in place at the time, um, were super helpful. I mean, it certainly went a bid. Uh, it's, it's quick and maybe it's rapid it out of the gate without their help.

Hiren Patel, PE: Uh, very supportive. I know they had a. GEC in District Seven, and when Word was out there that we had started [00:12:00] PGA, then they quickly added us to the GEC. Knowing the district, you know, needed my support at the time on an in-house project and they were very supportive and adding us to the contract and putting me out there, that really helped us from day one to go out there and support, you know, the Drainage Group out of, uh, District Seven.

On a project and that got us billable pretty quick and, uh, never forget that. So really appreciate all the fortune that we've had from the beginning. Yeah. I think that really helped us. And you were able to take some projects with you. Yeah. Like Bartow Northern, things like that. Yeah. So that, that helped, you know, to have work right away while we were actively looking for new work.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I mean, it really is a people business. Um, you know, we had built those relationships and they were kind of real, they were genuine, um, relationships with these people and, um, I, you know, I guess they respected that we, you know, had had a lot to do. Some of it was outta necessity, but, you know, some of 'em really wasn't, you know?

Mm-hmm. The first you know, I think I mentioned a minute ago, we didn't really have a, like [00:13:00] a Design Group in Bartow when I left to go to Tampa in 2004, but I had come back in oh seven, uh. With Jay and Jason and um mm-hmm. And we were there to build with, and Dave kind of, you know, oversee being that principal and kind of setting it up to build a design, you know, group there in Bartow to mainly pursue work in District One.

And, and you know, Polk County, some areas around here, but you know, District One was the big one 'cause they'd always pursued work out of Tampa. And of course they continued to do that. But, you know, we built that team, I put that team together and we chased, uh, that 542 job. Um. And, uh, that was our first big win.

That was really, uh, that was our second big one. I, for me anyway, uh, being, you know, the drainage guy and, um, man, I had, I had learned a lot and, and at that point figured out I was pretty decent at it. Um, and we, I mean, we won that job and that was a big job. And so for us, that [00:14:00] was just huge that we had gone in, you know, us young, young guys.

And I'd won that job. Uh, and then we left. But I mean, nothing, nothing we can do about that. That was the timing of it. Um, but they let me keep the pond siding report, so that was pretty cool to actually get to work on that job that I'd worked so hard to, to win. Um, and they didn't have to do that, man. They could just said, see you later, you know, but they didn't. Uh, so that, that was really cool. 

First Projects and Early Successes of PGA

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and, uh, the other was the BDI program, so, uh, we gotta get into that. Yeah. You know, what we always tell is, um, we look like geniuses looking back because we started this small business, uh, at a time when the department was starting this business development initiative program, which is a, you know, set aside.

They still, still, still going strong. Yeah. Um, you set aside for small businesses, but at the time it was brand new. We didn't know anything about it. We were not geniuses. We just wanted to have our own company. [00:15:00] Um, but we quickly learned about it. That very first one. Uh, I remember we started, we started, first day was July 4th.

Yes. 2011. So first day was a Holiday 

Hiren Patel, PE: America, 

Gordon Greene, PE: um, which we worked. Um, and, uh, we were going on the ad page and we had, you know, we had been doing a little bit of that, trying to prep and, uh, to get, to get started and try to identify projects we could pursue. And there was this US 17 resurfacing job in Arcadia that.

We weren't really tracking 'cause it was, it had advertised, you know, months. So it wasn't really on our radar. Pulled up the web page, you know, back then. Um, and there it was. It's back. What, what, what is this project? It's, it's already advertised. Um. You kind of could read the notes and everybody was screwing it up back then 'cause it was back then.

So new. Yeah. You know, now they allows, uh, a portion to be bigger firms. Back then it had to be all small business, no exception. And, uh, since it was new teams were still screwing it up. [00:16:00] So you'd have a small business prime and then they'd had, they'd some big firm on there. Right. And so, uh, they kept having to readvertise, I think it was the third time they readvertised and a week of the ad had already passed.

So we're mid, mid ad and, uh. We're like, well, we ain't got nothing else to do. Um, so let's 

Hiren Patel, PE: write a letter. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Let's, uh, yeah, let's write a letter. Um, and, uh, you know, Joe Lauk was a PM who's of course with us now. Um, he was still at the department back then, and, um, I think I, I made, I made some calls and spoke in like generalities just so we could kind of get, uh, you know, some sort of lay of the land and figure what the heck was going on.

And also like make, make sure they knew we, you know, had our own company now and wanted to put a letter in. So we put a letter together in a week. We got shortlisted and we won. So very first letter, very first shortlist, very first selection. Um, it was kinda hard to believe actually, um, that all that happened when the first, [00:17:00] first few months, 

Hiren Patel, PE: but forget we got shortlisted on the second.

BDI, that's right. And D1 also. It was US 41. That's when we learned real quick, you don't win back to back. You don't win back. They don't let you 

Gordon Greene, PE: do that. Yeah. But we did get shortlisted. That's right. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. I remember, uh, learning about that in the PBS&J office that we had won that one. 'cause we were down there talking to, because we didn't have an office then.

Nope. It was just us working out of our homes and, uh, trying to win work and then see where it took us. And that was the first sign, like, okay, we may have something here. So, 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah. If I remember right, I think Dunn was in Bartow at the time. I think they were standing in front of his office. And, um, 

Hiren Patel, PE: it was Mr. Brian Blair that gave us the news. That was, that's right. It was 

Gordon Greene, PE: Blair. And, uh, I, I think I wanted to shove him like Elaine does on Seinfeld, you know, because I, I thought he was messing with us. Um, but he wasn't, he had been selected. Yeah. That was a pretty exciting time. Um, we gotta figure out real quick, if we were capable of managing [00:18:00] projects, I'd never managed a project in my life.

Hiren Patel, PE: No. And a RRR job too. Yeah. So I had to learn RRR. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So that was, uh, that allowed us to get outta the gate really, really quick, um, and, and learn that we, we could manage projects, um, and, and, and kind of learn the ropes, what it means to, um, you know, deal with the client directly like that and to manage a team and schedule and budget and all those things.

Um, and so that was really good learning experience for us. Um. Also solidified like this BDI thing. Could be, that could be the deal. Let's go. Yeah. So where, where do we go next? 

Hiren Patel, PE: Where do we go next after D1, logically D2. So we saw the success of the BDI program in D1, so we started looking hell everywhere else in this state to try to keep winning work.

You know, try to win some projects, hopefully start an office one day. That was our ultimate goal at that point. [00:19:00] So we looked at D2. They had a, some projects coming out in the BDI program. So we decided to pursue those. Uh, never met District Two before or they've interacted with us. Um, so it was a great opportunity for them to learn a little bit about us.

We went there and shared our story while we started the firm and pursued it. Uh, State Road 121 project in Gainesville District Two kind of shortlisted. Um. I won that interview and we're able to win that one. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, we had submitted a letter up there before that. Had we, that was our first shortlist there too.

Hiren Patel, PE: That was our first shortlist. Yeah. Yeah. First letter for shortlist, first win. So that was, uh, very exciting. Um, and again, this was a district, we had never done workforce, so we were learning a lot about a new district. Uh, seeing what their goals were and all that, and learning the whole interview process of Q&As.

'cause that was also new to the District, uh, which was very nerve wracking for us newbies. Um, but we quickly, you know, like we'd do [00:20:00] anything when we first started, just worked our tail off and listened to old tapes, you know, study questions and just, you know, study the project really well. And then, uh, had a really good.

Uh, part teaming partner. We still have him on most of our projects today. Erbie Garrett with Garrett Engineering Group. 

Gordon Greene, PE: He's gonna make it now. Thank goodness. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah, really good guy. Um, really helped us out with that one. And, uh, you know, that was, uh, a really good win and then, you know, just keep going down the road from that one.

"This Guy's a Gamer"

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I'll remember, uh, one thing from that D2 interview. So. Uh, I had done a little bit of marketing before we left, uh, you know, big presentations, stuff like that. Like two or three, not that many, but enough. And the prep on those is pretty intense. I don't think you had done any, so this is all, a lot of this is pretty new to you.

So obviously we did the first US 17 together, but I was a PM. Yep. And then, like you said, we got shortlist on, they had kind of two at the same time and [00:21:00] you got shortlisted and you were the PM on that one. And it was a good interview. I remember that. Um, but anyway, I think we finished second. Um, so we go to D2 and you know, back then everything was like shoestring budget.

And probably for longer than we needed to, we would share hotel rooms, um, until the snoring got so bad and I was like, I don't care what it cost, Hiren is getting his own room. Nope. Um, back then we shared the room and I could, I mean, I could still remember, uh, that that night before, you know, we of course been practicing and prep and we were excited out of our, all of our notes and, you know, back then you didn't get to take notes in.

I think even in D2 we didn't get take notes in. Right. Yeah, I know. I know. We didn't. 'cause the first time we did that was when we went up to D3 later on. Mm-hmm. And we were, we were trying to memorize everything. And the people that were used to took marketing up there were like, I. What are you doing?

Just take the notes in with, [00:22:00] anyway, um, District One certainly didn't let you take them in. I don't think Seven did either and I don't think Two did either. So yeah, it's, it's a lot of, I mean, you have to study more and you really have to memorize your notes. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah, I know your stuff 

Gordon Greene, PE: on the, on the questions that have been asked before, whatever the, the prep's basically the same as it is now for those interviews.

Except you just had to memorize it. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Well, you didn't get the five minute huddle either. That's true. That's, you just got the questions and they read 'em to you. You're like, oh, okay. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I think on your feedback then you Yeah, you, you did. Um, so we're, we're trying to cram the night before because of all that.

And um, you know, each sitting in our own, you know, queen beds and the whatever Holiday Inn 

Hiren Patel, PE: I think we had two beds 

Gordon Greene, PE: in Lake City. Two beds. Yeah. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: We, we did get two beds, um, and. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm drilling you, I'm sure, right? 'cause you're the pm you're gonna get most of the questions. And, um, you were struggling.

I remember you were struggling. Um, you're having a hard time thinking like, I, you know, remembering or thinking or, or delivering or whatever. Um, and, [00:23:00] you know, I was trying to be encouraging, of course. 'cause it, it didn't, I mean, it mattered, but it didn't, like if we lost, we would've just gone after the next one.

It would've been fine. Um, so it wasn't like super high stakes, but obviously we. We like to win. We like to win. We don't, we don't do stuff to lose. No. Um, but I'm, I was just like, okay, he's, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Um, but I was a little worried. I was a little worried and, uh, but hey, we go in the next day.

It was just the three of us. 'cause they only allowed three. It was thinking about it by then. So it was just me, you, and Erbie and um, and I, you know, we get the questions and they must have been mostly what we prepared for. I don't remember like having a freak out moment. I think they were pretty much what we were prepared for.

Um, but I was still anxious to see how it was gonna go. 'cause you were, you were kind of struggling the night before and I, I remember sitting there and those questions came in and you were just like, I mean, you were just on the spot and you were, I mean, it was amazing. It was ama It was, it was even, it [00:24:00] was better than any practice you had done.

And I just remember sitting there going, this guy's a, this guy's a gamer. Um, he, he's, he's showing up at game time. And I was like, we're, I mean, we're gonna win this. Nobody's gonna do, do this. Well, um, I don't even remember what I said in that interview. I don't think I said very much. Uh, that was all you and Erbie.

Hiren Patel, PE: You probably had the QC question. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, yeah. Something, something. But anyway, I, that, that always stuck in my brain as like, you know, all right, well, Hiren me get nervous from time to time. But when it really comes down to it, like he shows up, I think it happened. Um, I think it happened that I-75 a little bit too.

Hiren Patel, PE: Oh my gosh. 

That one, 

Gordon Greene, PE: the one in D7. Um, but that time I wasn't worried. 'cause I'm like, it's fine. He'll be fine. I remember D2, he'll be fine. I'm not worried about it. Um, and same, same exact thing happened, although I wasn't surprised this time. 'cause when we got in the room it was like. There Hiren goes.

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, we won that job too. Um, 

Hiren Patel, PE: yeah, I mean, you're right. Like I didn't, didn't really do many Q&As or presentations. I was the behind the scenes guy [00:25:00] doing the calcs or whatever, you know, but never in the room, but. Think I was gonna get there at some point, you know? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, you got there quick, man. 

Hiren Patel, PE: I got there.

Gordon Greene, PE: You got there quick. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. I was just messing with you in the hotel room. I knew. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Hiren Patel, PE: So, yep. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, 

Hiren Patel, PE: but like most engineers, you don't really learn that in school. Like you need to go and work, you need to go and be able to, you know, present your ideas in a, in a nice manner to, to your client that's gonna select you out of two other really good firms that are also trying to win this project.

So, yeah, I mean that's one thing that we've always done from the very beginning is like, no one's gonna outwork us. We're gonna go and find the answers and, and do everything we can to win the project. 'cause at that point, that was our livelihood. We had to win. Yeah. Just to keep going. So I. Made sure we did that 

Gordon Greene, PE: well and we, we learned through that, that we really like to chase work and we really like to win work 

Hiren Patel, PE: Well as a prime too.

Gordon Greene, PE: As a oh, more as a prime. Sometimes it can be frustrating as a sub. And we learned that even early on. Like, you know, some, some, you [00:26:00] know, primes of course are, are amazing. Um, and it was fun to work with them. And then some. Man, you're just like, this rate can be frustrating. So that kind of fed into us wanting to chase more prime work as well.

'cause we, we could just control the whole thing. But, you know, we're competitive. You, you and I are competitive. We've attracted a lot of very competitive people. Yep. Um, and we just like to chase work and to win work. 

The Big Why

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, so let's, let's kind of segue that back into. Kind of why we started PGA. 'cause that's a little bit of it.

Um, 

Hiren Patel, PE: yeah, 

Gordon Greene, PE: so maybe you tell a little bit about, uh, you know, what was your, what was, what was your big why? 'cause I think we kinda shared that, but, you know, it was a big thing for you when we were starting out. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. I think it was more just, you know, seeing how we can start our own firm and leave our own legacy, you know, and, and show what qualities we can bring to an engineering firm and to grow the firm the right way.

You know, with hard work. Just strong culture and just, you know, attracting really good people to work with [00:27:00] us. That was one of my big things to start the firm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot about, um, yeah, we definitely shared that. Just valuing, appreciating. It was always like, upfront, you know, back then we had no idea what, what we would do, how big we might get or whatever.

Right. Uh, we just knew that whoever we did bring in that we'd wanna. You know, do whatever we could to make them feel appreciated and 

Hiren Patel, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: That sort of thing has, uh, what that has become is, um, you know, we're, we're pretty generous in a lot of ways, but even like, you know, these big Yeah. We got our holiday party.

Uh, I know you're not supposed to date these things, but it's this Friday, this Saturday, I guess this weekend. By the time you hear this, we have already partied. Yeah. Um, but it's a big, I mean, it's a bash man. Yeah. Like, we don't, we don't mess around. I'm not sure of too many consulting firms that, that put on a party like that, but the whole point is so that people feel [00:28:00] appreciated, especially at the end of the year.

Like it's, you know, every year is a super busy year. Um, and so, you know that those early motives, you know, are kind of still there today.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and I know that I think this for you as well, um, at least for me, and I believe for you, um. I can remember, especially that, that 542 proposal that I mentioned earlier, um, that was a lot of work.

And I remember at the time I had built, uh, a, a, a better work life balance, um, for me. Mm-hmm. Which meant my, 'cause my kids were small. I'm gonna leave work around 5, 5:30. So I can go like, see them. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, if there's more work to do, I'll either work there, but most of the time I would just come back to the office 'cause they were little, so they were in bed by like eight, you know.

Um, so unfortunately that meant, you know, left Krista there by herself. Too many, too many nights. But, [00:29:00] um, I'd come back to the office and I'd walk up oftentimes by myself to go back in the office to work till, you know, midnight or whatever. Hmm. And one night, as I'm walking up. The parking lot to go in the building.

I'm like, I don't really want to be doing this. Hmm. Um, but I can't not do this. Mm-hmm. Like, there's a proposal coming. I ha I have to come here and be prepared so that we can win. Um, I, and it just sort of, I, I guess, dawned on me like, what if, what if I just harness this? Uh, 'cause I was a workaholic. That's what you call that, that's what that is.

Um, if I can harness that for myself, that might be better. I might be better. Um, so that was some of the genesis. I mean, there's a lot of altruism to mm-hmm. What our motives were, you know, wanting to, to treat people really well and appreciate them. That is 100% a major driving factor. But it was also like.

If I'm gonna be a [00:30:00] workaholic, I'm gonna be a workaholic for me. You know what I mean? Uh, plus we thought you, maybe we've got the chops to do it, you know, and if we don't, that's what we always do. Like people would, we always said, people would say like, well, you know, was it scary? Or whatever. And yes, it was scary, but the way I guess we rationalized it so that we would, you know, do it, 

Hiren Patel, PE: actually do it.

Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, was if we suck at it, we're, we're. We think we're pretty good engineers. You know, we're good enough that I'm pretty sure. We could close the doors and go get a job somewhere. Yeah. We're not gonna be homeless. That's what we talked about. We'll be alright. We 

Hiren Patel, PE: just pay off a bunch of debt, but we'd still 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah.

Hiren Patel, PE: Find a good job somewhere. We'll be 

Gordon Greene, PE: ruined. Right. Won't be ruined. Um, yeah. And 

Hiren Patel, PE: it'd be a learning experience if it didn't work out. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Right. I, yeah, I mean to me it was, and that was one of the reasons why when the business with you is just knowing you had a strong work ethic and you knew that about me.

Um, I knew it was gonna work. Yeah. You know, that was just. Gonna happen. Yeah. It just would've taken us longer sometimes if we didn't [00:31:00] win the right job or whatever, or maybe not open the office right away. But I think, you know, clients sincerely appreciate folks that work hard for them. So 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah. 

Hiren Patel, PE: And 

Gordon Greene, PE: that's what it's all about, man.

And I think you'll probably remember there were some guys that had started their, uh, and, and I think, well, Diane too started her own company. So there were some folks that had started their own company. Um, you know, whatever. Yeah. A little bit later in the careers. And I think the consensus among them all was, man should have done this sooner.

So we said, oh yeah, that's great. Okay. I remember that. We'll, we'll, we'll take that lesson. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and we'll try it now and Yeah. If we suck at it, we'll we'll just go back to work for somebody. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. 'cause I think that's, that's the part people didn't realize, like the engineering part, that was the easy part.

It was trying to run a business or, or learn QuickBooks or you know, talk to an accountant about whatever taxes, all that fun stuff like that you had to do after 5:00 PM Yeah, like that was the hard work that I'm talking about. [00:32:00] Like it's, it's that part of the business, like running the business part. That was really, really a learning experience for us, you know?

Oh yeah, for sure. But you're right, that was the big lesson that I took away too, from talking to, to people that had started their firm, us. It's a lot of work. You might as well do it when you're got more time and energy to do it. Yeah. Like in your thirties or in your case, late twenties. Mm-hmm. So, um, but yeah, that, that was the other drawback.

Like if it didn't work out, we'd still be still in the prime of our career, so. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, and that's probably a, a good, um, a good point to show some appreciation to Krista and Kashmira. Mm-hmm. You know, we can pat ourselves on the back about how hard we worked and got these letters submitted and did all these things, but.

That came at a cost, so couldn't have done it without them. Oh yeah. Holding everything else down, that's for sure. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. That with three little kids and two little ones for you I know was a lot. 

First Hire: Not an Engineer

Gordon Greene, PE: All right, so we'll zoom back. Uh, we, we won our job in D2. This has gotta be around early 2012. [00:33:00] Yeah. 

Hiren Patel, PE: But before that, who was our first hire?

Because that's a good story I'm getting 

Gordon Greene, PE: That's, I was getting at, well, I'm studying, I getting, I'm transitioning. You there? 

Yeah. Yeah. So, well, we opened the Bartow office in. February of 2012. Right? So about seven months we worked out of our homes and, um, you know, we've had the opportunity to work with a bunch of small engineering firms and I, I feel like we're un unique, uh, in this aspect as well.

In terms of who was our first hire? Everybody. I was hired as a designer or another engineer, or project manager or something. We hired, uh, well, I guess we called her an office manager. 'cause when you're that small, you, you do that, that person does just about everything. Yep. Um, and it was my sister-in-law, Kelly Lyle, um, who's my wife's brother's wife.

Um, she had worked at PBS&J, as you know, and, uh, as, um, a financial person. And so I knew she knew how to do all this stuff, and budgeting and whatnot. And, um. I don't, I don't think we [00:34:00] put a lot of thought into like, you know, what should we do? And did a bunch of analysis. I think it just seemed obvious to us that we shouldn't be spending that much time on these things.

Right? We should be engineers and project managers and business developers, and we should hire somebody else to take care of these things. Uh, and so that's what we did. We, we, we hired her. She was our very first hire. Mm-hmm. Uh, was Kelly to, um. Do all that stuff. We in payroll, getting help with invoices.

Yeah, you, everything admin. Uh, and I can still remember, we, we were smart enough to keep our receipts. We did nothing with them. Um, and so we handed her, uh, probably two shoe boxes full of receipts and Thank you very much. Yep. Um, and she gotta work on that. Uh, and I don't know, that was, I think that was really smart.

Um, yeah, I guess that's. Oh, congratulating ourselves. 

Hiren Patel, PE: No. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Um, but I, looking back, I, I, I, I think that was definitely the right thing to do, [00:35:00] um, because that freed us up to go, you know, 

Hiren Patel, PE: yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Do our thing. 

Hiren Patel, PE: I mean, with opening that office in Bartow, I think that was a, a monumental point of our existence at that point.

Yeah. And we were never there half the time because we'd be out 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Marketing, talking to clients or in the field doing the work. So having somebody back at the, at the office to kind of. Answer the phones and you know, emails, whatever we couldn't do when we were there. That was a big help. But, but Kelly did a lot, she wore a lot of hats and definitely appreciated all her help in those early days.

That was a lot, lot to get through. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep. And once she figured out, it was pretty cool. I hired Jason. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Mm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So Jason, my brother-in-law. Uh, that was the, that seemed the easiest thing to do. I could talk him into that, uh, this brand new company. And, um, and uh, so that was a really good move for us and, uh, that allowed us to, um, well, to really get froggy in District One.

Uh, which, um, [00:36:00] for us was a, a really big move. I think we had. Maybe done a couple more jobs and just, I can't remember now 'cause that's all pretty, maybe not. Maybe, maybe one more. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Not much. I think at that point of our, of our existence, all we were chasing were minor design, RRR projects and getting on teams as a sub for drainage as you would expect.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. So kind of bringing it. Kind of that next step. Um, you know, we had won that, uh, that Scenic enhancement contract, which was a, a pretty big one for us. It was, it might've been our first step out of the BDI program 'cause that definitely wasn't BDI. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Correct. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So that, that was really big for us. Um. And gave us the motivation and the confidence to, to keep kind of pressing.

Gordon Greene, PE: And I'm sure you remember the, the next big project we, uh, decided we were ready for, uh, was a Central Parkway. Uh, but it was back when it was in District One. So this goes back, you know, over 10 years now. Uh, anybody that's tracking those [00:37:00] projects. And you've heard Central Park Parkway. It's with the Turnpike now.

And we, uh, you know, full circle, were able to do a different segment, uh, here recently. Uh, but back then everything was District One. They'd done the whole PD&E to go from, uh, Polk Parkway all the way up to, to I-4 and around Polk County. And, uh, they were advertising, you know, these different segments and these were big jobs.

These were definitely, I think they had 'em spread out over, uh, at least a couple years, maybe three years. And, um. We didn't chase the first one. I remember AECOM won that one. That was from Polk Parkway down to 17. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And so we were able to watch that and um, the next segment, uh, ended up going to KCA I don't think we really chased that one either.

I think we were on some teams as a sub. Yes. But we were looking to say, okay, well maybe we will, maybe those were in one year and I think the next batch was coming out the next year. And we're like, well, let's just get positioned for it. Um, it'll be good experience for us to chase a big job like this, put the team [00:38:00] together and have all the pre-positioning meetings and we'll just see how it goes.

We figured we'll start putting the letters in, we'll get some feedback. And who knows, maybe we'll even win one of these, I think like segment five or six or seven or something like that. So we did all the things and Joe Lauk, uh, I remember he was the the DOT PM there. So that was a, a good end for us. He had managed some of our projects and we got along.

Um, and, uh, even I think the whole TRC was, was pretty good for us. We thought, uh, did all the meetings, those went pretty well. We asked him like, point blank, do you feel like you're comfortable with us? Hey, you know, managing a job of this size? And they said yes. So we took them at their word and we went for it thinking.

Maybe we'll even get shortlisted on this first one. Um, and we'll see how it goes from there. We really didn't have too high hopes. We were confident, but kind of realistic. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And, um, lo and behold, we get shortlisted and uh, now we've gotta, [00:39:00] uh, try to bring this thing home and see if we actually have what it takes to compete.

And we got shortlisted against two, uh, really? Really large firms. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, with PMs that we knew District One liked, and we knew it was gonna be tough. And, um, you remember how many people we had in the firm when we got shortlisted? 

Hiren Patel, PE: Four? 

Gordon Greene, PE: We had four. Four. There were four people in the whole company. And one of 'em was, uh, Kelly, our office manager.

Uh, so there were three engineers. Me, you, and Jason. And, uh, so Jason was our PM. Our Roadway Lead and PM and I was on for drainage, and you must have been the principal in charge and QA/QC guy. And then we had a whole team and, uh, man, we put our everything into that. Um, we were a Mac company back then.

Everybody had MacBook and um, so we put together, uh, a pretty sharp keynote presentation. You know, it wasn't anything like, you know, Ryan Tyrrell would do mm-hmm. With our Marketing Team now. But, uh, we were pretty proud of ourselves back then. And, um. [00:40:00] We put a really strong showing in and uh, and felt good about our approach and it worked out and we won, and that created a pretty big splash in the industry because I think everybody at that time, even though we'd only been around a few years.

Um, I think we had earned some respect and, and built a pretty good reputation for kind of knowing what we were doing, but everybody also knew there was just like three of us. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yes. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And we were really, really small and, um, I'm sure that was hard to swallow for some and in, in ways that makes it a little sweeter, um, to win and, um, and sort of shock everyone.

Um, but really it kind of put us on the map, uh, in terms of. Reputation and confidence for us, honestly. Yeah. That our clients are, you know, appreciating, uh, our service that we're providing and they're trusting us, right? Which is really what it's all about. And, um, and, and that. Allowed us to do a lot of other [00:41:00] really good things, uh, in terms of growing the company.

So it wasn't too long after that that we were able to start the structures group, start the Tampa office, uh, and then really ramp up hiring. So we weren't four people for very long after that. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yeah, that wind definitely put us on a map. It caught a lot of people's attention and even some folks that we were trying to recruit saw that and it woke them up that we can chase big stuff.

'cause some of the folks that we were talking to. They only worked on big stuff at that point. We were only doing RRR minor design kind of work, but we knew our aspirations were to chase bigger stuff and we knew our clients would trust us with that kind of work. So winning a job like that reemphasized our, our commitment to chasing bigger projects.

And then we were able to recruit, you know, new folks in the firm that way. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep, yep. And we, we didn't stop doing BDI. We, again, we still really small at the time. Take a lot of that experience, uh, which we covered earlier in the podcast, the, from our [00:42:00] PBS&J days where we worked on, you know, of course they were, they were the biggest firm in the state and they won all the biggest, uh, you know, projects and we gotta work on a lot of those.

Um, so we had all that experience and so now, you know, we got to actually put it to work for, for PGA 

Hiren Patel, PE: for sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So. That was, uh, District One and we really had things rolling. Then now we've got our Tampa office. Now we're starting to recruit. Some people over there and we were already having some success, some success with some RRR jobs.

Well, so then we, we start to ramp up there as well. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Like right around the time we won CPP is when we won our first District Seven prime job, Nebraska Avenue RRR. So it was right around that same time. So it was really exciting for us to have two big jobs going through, you know, contracting and all that.

And that's when we started to reach out to folks that we knew to see if they wanted to come be a part of this thing. Mm-hmm. Like Tommy Serra,. Joe Losaria, Johnny Fung. Those, those were the, the key folks that we were talking to and they ended [00:43:00] up joining. They saw what we were doing. They want to be a part of it.

It's amazing. They're still with us today. Um, but yeah, after that is when we started chasing some bigger stuff in D7. You know, District Seven started having some operational Improvement projects on I 75 and now with the Structures Group, that was our goal. Let's go in some bigger stuff, get some projects with Bridges.

Keep that group rolling. And there was one at I-75 at 60 that we teamed up well, got a good team together. I was the project manager, Jason was lead roadway. Think you were QC guy. Um, got shortlisted and nailed that interview and won that one. So that also woke up some people that we were getting also win some big stuff in D7 and having the Tampa office has really helped recruit.

More people that we knew. More people saw us and wanted to work with us and wanna come all the way to Bartow, but they can come to Tampa. Uh, so we had our office right there in near, you know, District Seven set up shop there and, you know, it [00:44:00] really hit us, really had, had us going forward a lot at that 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I think all that whole time of the company was, uh, was a big turning point for us, especially starting the Structures Groups that was also kind of a part of that. So. We knew we could win the big work and compete. And then in terms of starting a whole new service line, albeit with people we knew really well, but still we're, we're at this time figuring out are we really businessmen as well as engineers, right?

So yeah, we figured the first stuff out, but we're still doing roadway and drainage and plants production, which we'd been doing. We knew that stuff. Um, but can we start. A whole new service line. Yeah. Um, now part of that decision making process is doing that with people that you can trust. So at least we knew that.

Um, and I, I know you remember we were having those conversations like. Well, I'll, I'll talk to Joe, um, and see if he'll talk to Johnny and if they don't wanna do it, then maybe we just won't do it. [00:45:00] Yeah. Um, 'cause I don't, I don't wanna really wanna do it with anyone else. Um, so thankfully that worked out and we were able to, to, to talk them into that.

Mm-hmm. But that whole turning point of, okay, well if we can do that, then maybe one day we can start a Traffic Group and a Planning Group. Whatever, you know, maybe, maybe we can do this. And so, um, yeah, we just really, from that point on, um, just went, went crazy. Yeah. Uh, chasing as much work as we can, trying to get into every District we can.

Gordon Greene, PE: And the BDI program was a big part of that for sure. To get in. And if you don't let us in, um. Upfront. You know, we're not, we're not going anywhere. Right. You're gonna have to give us a job eventually 'cause we're just gonna keep coming back. Yes. Persistence 

Hiren Patel, PE: was our angle because we knew 

Gordon Greene, PE: that once we got in and we did what we do, um, that they would like it and they'd want us to run more projects for 'em 'cause 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yep.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, you know, we do a good job or we must, that seems to be what people think [00:46:00] 'cause they keep giving us projects. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Right. I think clients do appreciate that you do good work and honor our commitments. Hopefully get repeat work. So 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah, 

Hiren Patel, PE: so, but going back to the Structures Group group, I mean, that was a big turning point of the firm, but we learned a lot just from running a company how much overhead they, they, they would be on the first hopefully 12 months.

It ended up being that long. Just, they won work right away, but they don't really see their work until later on in projects. So, you know, that's when we started seeing like, okay, starting new service lines, definitely more planning and more just. Thought process going into it. Mm-hmm. So it was, it was definitely a turning point at the firm, but a lot of lessons learned for us there too.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I guess, uh, part of being good business people, um, is sometime learning those lessons and having a little bit of pain. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Yep. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. So we, we didn't really wasn't much pain at all. Yep. It all went fine. Um, but, you know, a little puckering up, uh, there, um, towards the end. I mean, they, that's the thing too.

'cause they were [00:47:00] successful. They, they really hit it, uh, hit the ground running. Right. Um. But you know, we knew how long it takes to get these things going sometimes, and so we, um, you know, didn't quite calculate all that perfectly, but 

Hiren Patel, PE: you know. 

Gordon Greene, PE: It all comes out 

Hiren Patel, PE: well. And the other thing that the Structures group that, that really helped us too was getting on Design-Build projects.

'cause those guys, that's what they wanted to do. And we never really pursued design build as much at that point of our firm. But these guys are like, Hey, we're gonna go and start teaming up. We're like, go nuts. And that was one thing that we've always talked about. Like you get the right people to start something for you.

Just give 'em the equipment and get outta the way. And that's what, that's what we did exactly. And they ran it and took it off. So it's been good. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, that was the beauty of those days. There was no go, no go meeting. It was just go. It was just go. 

Hiren Patel, PE: I think we still have that kind of same moment now.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

Gordon Greene, PE: Well that, um, I think we'll probably stop there 'cause we could talk another three days on all the projects we chase. [00:48:00] Those are, those are fun conversations. Um, but that was, uh, that was a, it's probably a good place to stop because that really was the turning point. You know, we started to get stuff in place and then from there we just, uh, kept trying to collect all the, the best people that we possibly could and chase everything we possibly could and, and try to just keep growing.

And that's what we did. Yes, sir. Alright, so that will wrap up this, uh, edition, this inaugural first edition of PGAs, Breaking the ICE podcast. I appreciate you being here and going down memory lane with me, and Yes, sir, talking about all those things. That was a lot of fun. Um, we got a lot of topics ahead.

Um, so we'll have a new guest next time and, uh, we will have a new topic and, and we will get into, um, you know, lots of different things, uh, over the next, uh, several months and we hope it's interesting and entertaining to all of you listening and watching and, um, looking forward to doing many more. Yeah.

And we'll wrap it up like we do a lot of things. 

Hiren Patel, PE: Didn't do it right last time [00:49:00] 

Gordon Greene, PE: with, uh, a very common thing we like to, in our interviews this way, actually, it's a big marketing thing, is, uh, we get 1, 2, 3, Go PGA

Hiren Patel, PE: Go PGA. Oh, I thought you were gonna do it again. What you gonna do? 1, 2, 3 again?