Seller-Doer: Lean Into Your Identity

In this episode of PGA’s Breaking the ICE podcast, host Gordon Greene, PE sits down with Vice President & Tampa Roadway Group Leader Trevor Hawkins, PE to unpack the Seller-Doer model in engineering. They reflect on their early experiences, how embracing the model influenced their career paths, and what it takes to balance technical delivery with authentic client relationships.

The episode also touches on the importance of maintaining a healthy "work-life sway," what that concept really means in the day-to-day realities of the AEC world, and preparing the next generation of engineers to carry this mindset forward.

Tune in to hear from:

• Gordon Greene, PE – Co-Founder & Executive Vice President (Host): He’s the embodiment of a competitive spirit, and that motivation has powered his drive as an engineer, business owner, and civic volunteer for the past 25 years. He also loves talking to people about how these interests converge! Come join the conversation!
• Trevor Hawkins, PE – Tampa Roadway Group Leader & Vice President (Guest): With more than 20 years of experience in transportation design and project management, Trevor brings a thoughtful, team-driven approach to every project. A proud USF alum and the 2025 – 2026 President for the Florida Engineering Society’s Tampa Chapter, he’s passionate about mentorship, leadership, and building strong client relationships.

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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@patelgreene

Transcript

Gordon Greene, PE: [00:00:00] Welcome to Breaking the Ice. We're Patel Greene and Associates and we are here to tell stories about our three favorite things, business, culture, and engineering. Let's get to it.

Welcome back to PGA's podcast, Breaking the Ice. Uh, and in this month's installment I have with me Trevor Hawkins of Patel Greene and Associates. Welcome. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Thank you very much. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Alright, um, so before we get into our topic, I just wanted to give Trevor a chance to introduce himself a little bit back about his background and your role at PGA.

So, 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Take it away. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: All right. Uh, yeah. Uh, I've been at PGA now for seven years. I've got about, uh, 20 years of experience. I'm the, uh, Tampa Roadway Group leader now. Uh, we've got quite a few folks, not just in our Temple Terrace office, but also in our Carrollwood office as well. So, um, trying to make sure we're balancing resources there.

Um, also making sure, you know, people [00:01:00] have things to do, but not too many things to do and, um, you know, balancing their, their lives with their families and also work and all those things as well. So there's a lot going on, um, not just on the project side, but also pursuit side as well. So, 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah. And you started, you got to start at TYLin, I think.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yes. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And you really came up through a, a very, uh, technical path until you started getting to project management, right? 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, started project management maybe about, I mean, I wanna say like 10 to 12 years ago, doing that, um, really to fulfill a need. 'cause um, we had some folks, uh, transition out of, uh, that area.

So. They needed, you know, folks to kind of help lead projects and, and finalize them and all that stuff. But yeah, started out not just being like a task lead or PM but also being the EOR as well. So really, really knowing what's going on with that project intimately and, and being able to communicate it to the clients as well.

And. You know, you really [00:02:00] took ownership of those projects and things like that. But, um, yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So you got started for a shot, not so much on your merit or value, but out of desperation and 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: well, 

Gordon Greene, PE: limited choices. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Sure. Well, I mean, I would say that, I mean, there were other alternatives, but I think, um, uh, you know, I think if people are given the opportunity, they, they tend to rise to the occasion.

Gordon Greene, PE: Absolutely. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, you know, I think it's, it's tough to. Uh, most people are probably shy or not, um, confident in saying, Hey, I want to take on this role right now. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And I was still relatively young PE you know, and now I was eager to become a project manager. I was eager to be a EOR and things like that.

And, you know, the opportunity just happened to present itself as well. So, um, definitely was able to take advantage of you know, the situation, I guess. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And, you know, elevate [00:03:00] into that role and, and try and do it to the best of my ability. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, you probably identified it early on at that point in your career where, um, some people really gravitate towards that, that role where you have control over the project.

You're not intimidated by all the moving pieces and the people you have to work with. And of course there's some engineers that, that are kind of intimidated by that and they just wanna really focus on their one thing. So you, you identified yourself early on, like that doesn't really intimidate you.

Like actually you were probably eager to jump into that. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Because you're good with people. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. And I think that's part of it. I think I enjoyed, you know, the relationship part of it too with the clients and getting to know folks. Um, and I don't know, I mean, you wanna do a good job for them and, you know, continue to like, be successful on those projects and, and, you know, get things done.

Um. And I think I'll just say that there's a lot of times throughout the years you see how [00:04:00] to do it and mostly how not to do it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And you just think, well, I wanna bring something to the table. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: That, um, is, you know, better than that. Something that I can really maybe, hopefully improve on and um, you know, and help other people be that way too.

Yeah. But I mean. I make mistakes from time to time. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I mean, we've both been managing projects for a while now, and every job I do, I'm learning something I've been doing wrong the whole time and, and need to change. So it's always, always a learning process. So, um, you and I have worked on several projects together and, and one thing, uh, you know, I know about you and maybe it's one of the things that, you know, attracted you to, to join PGA is kind of our approach to stuff, which is.

That seller doer thing. I don't think we really knew that. Um, early on we just did what, what made sense to us. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, but as we've grown and, uh, some folks have joined and then left, and you start to kind of figure [00:05:00] out who you are, like as a company, not 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Not individuals, but you get enough individuals together that are similar.

You have sort of a corporate identity, so to speak. And for us, that's, that's the seller doer. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, we've really kind of embraced that as something we can all resonate with and identify with. Um, we see the value of it. So that's really kind of our main topic that we can get into whatever, we'll see what we talk about, but we'll start with seller.

Doer. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and start with maybe defining it. So how would you define, uh, a seller doer? 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Sure. Well, I kind of hit on it a little bit. I think it's a seller-doer is somebody who establishes relationships with clients, number one. Uh, number two, they, well, they build relationships with clients. Uh, they build a business and then also build the project.

So I think those three things are kind of the, the key. And to your point, you know, I mean, I've only really worked at maybe [00:06:00] the more mid-size, uh, smaller firms. And it, you know, didn't seem like there was any other way to do it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But I think, um having, you know, through the years learning more about it.

It's like not every, you know, firm operates that way. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But it does tend to seem like more people are moving towards that model because one, it's successful, and two, it just seems like the logical thing to do, right? Like, we've always just done it because this makes sense, right? Um, not only does it make sense, it's.

It's probably the better model as well, you know, and, and I think that's how we generally tend to operate, is using our good sense maybe to, um, operate on that way. But those are, I mean, I guess in definition, yeah, that's kind of what I think, uh, a seller doer is, is, is somebody who can, um, is always building, but those three key pillars.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. And I guess you can apply that, that seller [00:07:00] doer, moniker to any sort of industry. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, but for us, we're engineers. Um, and one thing I've noticed is when you, when you run into someone that just, they seem to kind of be wanting to move past that part of their career, um, they're maybe not so interested in the doing and they're more interested in, in the selling and the managing.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, it kind of. Well, two things. I guess. One, it we found it doesn't fit with us. Like it ends up, um, just being a real disruption and, and it's hard for that person to fit in and, and typically it doesn't work out, uh, long term. Uh, and, but you know, no matter how smart or talented they are, and then maybe they find somewhere where that company identity is a little bit different.

They fit in better and, and they're super successful. But what is often a little bit sad to me in those cases is, um, I became an engineer because like I really enjoy problem solving and being an engineer. [00:08:00] Um, and it would make me sad to, to never be able to do that, you know? Um, we're doing less than we used to, you know, when we started out and, uh, which is the natural way of things.

But, um, but I still like to dig in there and, and help. At this point for both of us, probably it's more someone helping us is struggling with something and they come in and for me, that's never a bother. That's like, okay, yeah, cool. Tell me what you're struggling with and so I can understand and help you through it.

Um, and those are fun conversations and you get to be an engineer and you get to help them learn and 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um. I think that's a big part of being that sort of seller-doer 'cause yeah, it's probably on my project, or at least I'm the engineer record, let's say.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And they're, they're helping me and they're coming and we're working on that stuff together.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. There's a couple things that you, you said that made me think about, um, you know, I've worked with some folks who were great sellers, um, but mainly because they've [00:09:00] done it in the past, like they can talk intelligently about it. And for those who. Um, kind of want to skip maybe the technical side or whatever, or the doing side, I guess.

Um, I just, I, I don't know how you would be able to sell without being able to, I guess, instill confidence in the client or sell, you know, how do, how do you sell without instilling confidence in that, you know, what's happening or what, how, how to do this thing 

Gordon Greene, PE: Exactly. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: You know? Um, so. Even now to your point, it's like, yeah, it's like, well we, you sometimes you get a little bit further removed from the technical side and those, you know, I always feel bad when I can't answer like an engineering question without looking it up or whatever, but I know where to go, you know?

Um, but mainly that overarching problem solving, you know, like, Hey, we have a thing on this project, we need a decision. It's not necessarily like, Hey, is it two inches or is it four inches or is it this [00:10:00] pay item or this, it's like, hey, we need to decide if we're gonna go this direction 

Gordon Greene, PE: mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: For the project.

And I think, you know, doing more and more technical things help you decide those, those directions and things like that. And I think that's, as the project manager or whatever you, you tend to get better at as time goes on. But yeah, I would say yeah, skipping the doer side and, and going straight to the seller side, that's, it's tough.

I wouldn't wanna do it. I don't think I could, you know, I 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: You know, I'm 

Gordon Greene, PE: right. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: So anyway, 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah, I like spreadsheets as much as the next engineer, but I don't wanna do 'em all day. I wanna, I wanna be an engineer. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, all right, so let's talk about scale. Um, you know, we're at 160 something now. Um, you talked about, you know, you've worked at mid-size firms, um, you know.

The only other firm I really worked for was definitely not a mid-size firm, but I was pretty young and I'm sure didn't have a full grasp of the whole picture. Um, [00:11:00] what are your thoughts? I, I'm genuinely interested. We haven't really talked about this, so this will be interesting. Um, and I'm gonna come up with my own, own thoughts kind of on the fly.

'cause I had, I wrote down the question, I don't really have an answer myself. So, um, as we get to 300, 500, a thousand, how, how much can we scale that seller doer model? Is there no end to it? 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, what do you think about that? 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Well, I think that, uh, we talked about this briefly before, but I think it's something that, um, has to become part of an identity.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, as for a company that, um, well first of all, I think everybody has to be a seller. We, and you, you talk about this like, you know, renew every day, right? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: We are being a seller. Yeah. And I don't think, and then maybe we need to, we don't say it enough. Yeah. Or maybe we need to phrase it more that [00:12:00] way to the people who are out there, you know, being the technical, you know, or whatever.

And it's like you're selling right now. Um, so understand that you're helping like, you're helping me sell you, you're, you're helping bring in revenue to this project by the things that you're doing right now. Um, so I think that's, that's part of it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. I like that, 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: you know, um, I think, you know, obviously training, you know, um, and make, and making that, you know, identity and culture kind of being part of that, you know, letting people know, just clarification.

Like people don't, and I think a lot of times people just don't know what their role is or what it is that, 

Gordon Greene, PE: what's expected of them. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. Um, you know, you're, you're hired and, you know, you're young EI and it's like, well you're doing CADD. You know, and that's all they, you know, and it's like that's, they may have their own thoughts about what they wanna do, but you know, no expectation is given 'em, them or whatever.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: So I think, um, [00:13:00] just kind of letting people know, like expectation and maybe what the growth process is gonna look like, um, especially for those who want to kind of grow more so in their career and things like that. In, in that role of 

Gordon Greene, PE: mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Selling and doing that. Um, I think the other thing too is just working on getting younger staff in early.

Um, and, and I think again, it's kind of going back to one, building relationships. So. And well, I think we could do this better. I could do this better. Um, is, and it is tough. 'cause a lot of our meetings are virtual now. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But like, um, early on in my career, you know, I had kind of a, um, a mentor and we didn't call it that.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But it was, it know, my boss took me to 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Every single meeting. And I got to know the client every time. And I, sometimes I didn't say anything. Sometimes I just took notes. [00:14:00] I saw what happened at those meetings, you know, I understood the process. Um, and then even early on in the proposal phase, it's like, Hey, I'm writing this letter.

I need you to write about the pavement design. I need you to write about safety, whatever, 

Gordon Greene, PE: a little piece. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And I'm gonna insert that into like, this is your responsibility. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, it starts like that, and then it's like, Hey, now I'm gonna get you a little, a little bit of plug. You're gonna be the, the sixth person at the end of the table.

With a little spiel to say 

Gordon Greene, PE: mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: During the Q&A 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Or you're gonna 

create these two slides for the presentation. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, you know, I, again, early on it was like, I, you know, I did everything. It was like, I made the board, I made, you know, I did the graphics, I did research, you know, whatever. And so you, you get to know what it takes to do those things.

You get better at it, you know? Um. But starting young, getting them to know exactly what it takes, um, and just get the feel so that, you know, you're not, [00:15:00] you know, you've gotten to a certain point in your career and you're just like, I'm not comfortable with doing that. I don't wanna do that. That seems like a big switch now for me to do that.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: You know, if you ease 'em into it, it's not as drastic of a, of a shift. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, and the other thing too, again, with the relationships, I would say like getting them to not getting them encouraging folks to go to like, uh, social 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Events. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Uh, conferences, stuff, networking things, whatever. And I know sometimes it's hard to put like, value on that.

Um, 'cause those things do cost money. It costs time, you know, out, usually they're outside of work hours sometimes too. 

Gordon Greene, PE: That's a lot of energy for introverted engineering. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Well that, that too. Um, and I remember. I remember showing up to those things and not knowing anybody. 

Gordon Greene, PE: A soul, 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: and I would stand 

at the on up against the wall watching all the people who knew each other and being like, I wanna be like that guy who knows everybody, you know?

Gordon Greene, PE: And now you are. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Well, but I [00:16:00] mean, you know, and that stuff takes time. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And it doesn't, you know, it's not gonna start right at the conference thing, but it's gonna start at trainings, um, you know, being present, 

Gordon Greene, PE: be a sub to somebody working on a project. Now you're friends. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah that too. Yeah. And, but even like FES, um, ASHE, ASCE little thing, you know, you get to know people and, and again, it's tough and that's usually why they have drinks involved and that helps get to know each other better.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But, um, you know, like those are, I mean, business is still done that way, you know? Um. It's like, I went to, um, a networking event not too long ago and it was like, Hey, glad I ran into you. Let's talk about teaming about something. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: You know, like you, you build those relationships and you have, you're more comfortable talking to them via teams or email and say, Hey, we're calling 'em up and saying, Hey, how's it going?

Hey, what do you think about this job? You know what I mean? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, whereas everything else ends up just being a cold call. And 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah, 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: most [00:17:00] people don't like that. So, 

Gordon Greene, PE: no. So when we think about scaling, uh, you're, you're talking about, um, making it part of our fabric, weaving it in, you know, that seller doer mentality.

Uh, encouraging that next generation to come up through. Um, and we've got, we're, we're trying to get some things in place. Uh, and I, I mean some notes 'cause it's some good stuff for us to take back and work on, but, um, working that into our, um, career progression stuff that we're 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Trying to do so that when someone does come in, they know at least, here's a couple paths for me.

I don't know what I really wanna do yet. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I'm just getting started. But, 'cause it is a lot of CADD 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: When you start out, but. If you see capabilities in someone, um, maybe they're, maybe they show some of that personality where it's like, okay, they're a little bit dynamic. I see 'em hanging around and talking to people.

Um, they might be good at this, and you give them that shot. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And either, either you're right or you're wrong, but you don't know until you give 'em a shot. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Better to [00:18:00] find out then than 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: When, when they're expected to do it and turns out they hate it. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, so there's. There's two, uh, not distracting at all.

Um, there's, uh, it's, it's dual purpose. Yeah. Basically either, uh, expose 'em to that stuff early on so it's not such a shock or, um, or you figure out, well, that's, that's not for me. I'm gonna sit over here. I'm gonna be the best technical engineer I can be. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And produce really great plans efficiently. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: The another thing I would say to that too, as we grow, um.

You know, right now it's kind of on everybody to kind of make sure that they're helping their staff, you know? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And what we've found probably is, you know, because we're seller doers, we're, we're we run outta time. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: You run outta that, um, energy or availability. And I think having somebody, as we get bigger dedicated to doing something like that.

Um, and maybe [00:19:00] it's multiple roles, you know? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But I think that's really the best way to make sure it's intentionally done, you know? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, good point. So we've talked a lot about, uh, the advantages of a seller doing and why we do it, but, you know, nothing's perfect. So there are, are some, I won't call it really disadvantages, but there's definitely challenges with a seller doer model.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Wanna talk about those? 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Well, yeah, sure. Um, well, one of them is, uh, we need more of them. Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, 'cause it's easy to get spread thin, maybe, and just, you know, spread thin, meaning, you know, you're either selling a lot or you're doing projects a lot, and one tends to suffer. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, so maybe, you know, the, the balance gets a little tough there.

Um. So, yeah, I would say definitely need more people who are interested in doing it. And I think part of that is the training. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Kind of what we talked about a little bit. Um, so I guess finding [00:20:00] ways to, you know, and again, this kinda goes back to the, what we were saying about expectations and, and things like that.

And it's, you know, like, Hey, I want you to spend 20%, I don't know of your time a month doing business development. Like pre-positioning. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, you know, hey, it's not about a specific project. Um, go talk to your clients or people that you've met with, um, in the past and just see, you know, how are we doing?

What can we do better, you know, whatever. Um, or doing that with people you want to team with. Um, you know, Hey, we're looking to partner on something here soon. Let's, let's go have a drink, let's do lunch. You know, whatever. Um, I think, you know. We get so caught up in the thing that's happening right now, which usually is the doing.

Gordon Greene, PE: It's day to day. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, yeah, what's, what's on my calendar tomorrow? Um, meetings, you know, and things like that that, I mean, it's just [00:21:00] tough to get the stuff done that we want to get done because, um, we tend to get spread thin a little bit. So 

Gordon Greene, PE: what they call it, the tyranny of the urgent or something like that.

Poster in that up. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: I've never heard that, 

Gordon Greene, PE: but pretty good, right? Yeah, I like that. Huh. I'm pretty sure that's a thing. Pretty sure I didn't just make that up 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: if you did. I it's appropriate. Yeah. Right. Yes. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I mean, we live by that. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Because we do all the meetings, like we don't, we don't, it feels a lot like we're going day to day.

Um, 'cause in a lot of ways we are, but we have the meetings, the, the marketing meetings where we, Hey, this thing's coming out in three or four months, and we ask ourselves the questions, what should we be doing? And we all say, well, I need to call so and so and so and so, and do this and do that. And sometimes we do it.

Sometimes we don't. Um, again, because of the, you leave that meeting and then go back to your inbox or whatever and off you go. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And then you forget to do the thing, or you just never quite make time for it. Do you think you're going to, and then before you know it, it's not time for the [00:22:00] next monthly meeting.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Do we do all that? No, I, I did not call anybody. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So 

here we are and it's ad advertising next week and we'll give it our best shot. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Happens too often. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, so you talked about, um.

The selling and the doing. Um, and you know, the, the battle between those two things for our time, um, you know, there's only so much time in the day, not, not to even discuss, which we can, but the. The rest of our lives, families and, and other things we have going on that we're trying not to cheat too much into those times when 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: mm-hmm.

Gordon Greene, PE: When work gets real busy. But, uh, you know, part of the challenge of that is we don't often have control over those timelines either. Um, especially when it comes to, to marketing stuff, you know, and those dates are set and they're non-negotiable and 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, when a, a project submittal maybe moves in or out where we thought we had it sort of lined up.

All of a sudden 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: a hurricane hits. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. A [00:23:00] hurricane, whatever. And, uh, and, and everything's on top of itself. You're just, you know, so to deal with it. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. Um, or yeah, vacations. I think last summer that was something I looked at all the things that were lined up and

Gordon Greene, PE: looked good initially. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Oh man. I, well, yeah.

And then it's, um, yeah, I mean, I think, um, we, we talked about this a little bit, the, uh, work life sway. I think sometimes we talk about work life balance. I think it's tricky because then you're, you're saying, Hey, there's, you're advertising. There's always a balance, right? And I think in this industry it's understood that there are moments when, you know.

It's not too bad. And, um, you know, we have a project that's due in a month. We all know it's in a month, and, you know, I'm gonna, it feels okay and reasonable. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: I'm gonna do the best that I can this day and then I'll pick it up tomorrow. You know, it's a project, 

Gordon Greene, PE: right 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, it's not, you know, clock in, clock out, whatever, but, but there are times where, hey, we have a.

A thing and it's due now, or it's due [00:24:00] in two weeks. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And yeah, 

Gordon Greene, PE: it's some unreasonable thing. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. Uh, or yeah, if you get shortlisted and all of a sudden you gotta put together, you know, a 45 minute presentation that's got 120 slides or whatever, and, you know, two weeks, it's, you know, that's gonna take some time.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: You wanna make sure that. You don't look like a dummy. You know, like that's, that's my biggest motivation for that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yes. Um, but, um, you know, and I think, you know, my, my wife and I think most people who, you know, uh, work in this industry under, you know, have seen that happen over time and they understand that, that those are things that, that pop up and 

Gordon Greene, PE: mm-hmm.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But if it happened all the time that, you know. That would be a problem, but I don't think that we've had that issue too much. I think, you know, we, well we tend, we try to balance it as much as we can. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. No more than anyone else. Hopefully, hopefully less often than, than some other places. Um, but I know one thing that I've been really proud of with our group, um, I know like you've been on both ends of it, [00:25:00] um, is.

Trevor's the best choice to manage this project 'cause of his experience or his relationships, whatever it is. It's like a no brainer has to be Trevor. Um, but the timing sucks. He's either, I think one of 'em, maybe you were on vacation or just like totally slammed. There was no way you could write the letter.

And it was like, well, that's okay. You don't have to write the letter. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: We can write the letter. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and you'll be the people like,

Trevor Hawkins, PE: yeah, 

Gordon Greene, PE: we have the ability. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And obviously the, the, the people that are kind like, no, no one's like, well, that's. Why do I have to make time for that? You know, it's Trevor's 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: right, 

Gordon Greene, PE: that it never even crosses our mind.

It's like these are the dates it has to get done. We all know how to write letters. We can all dive into the project and, and we've done it 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: well. Yeah, and I think generally, I mean that's been one of the best things about PGA and just one of my selling points too is just the team aspect. You know, where everybody chips in and.

Understands that you've got a thing or whatever. And now might be my fault too. I tend to be a little bit probably controlling on those things. 'cause I'm like, I don't [00:26:00] want it. It's not, I, I have to have, I have to look at it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, sure. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And I'm gonna spend time on it. I can't not look at it before, you know, it goes out and 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah.

And your names on it. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: So, so in that situation, I still think I stayed up pretty late into the evening. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh yeah. I'm sure. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And, you know, whatever, to, to make sure I, you know, um. You know, had my blessing or whatever. Not that it needs my blessing, I'm like, Hey, 

Gordon Greene, PE: no. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: I want to feel like, I know, and that's, that's probably the doer part too, right?

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Like where it's like, I wanna make sure that, you know, if it's got my name on it, I'm comfortable with it. You're not my experience and 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. And you're invested in the project. Even if I, I can't remember the details of why you got waylaid, but you had been looking forward to the project. You were already kind of invested into it and already had some thoughts and ideas.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So, yeah, you wanna look at that thing and make sure that we're hitting those points for you, the way you wanted 'em hit and whatever. We got it done. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And, and you've been on the other side of that, bailing other people out. Let's 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Sure. Oh yeah.

Gordon Greene, PE: That's why I think that works is 'cause no, nobody hesitates to jump [00:27:00] in and help because they know without hesitation.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: You would do the same for them or probably already have. So they're just kind of returning the favor. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and that's, that's something I've observed. I mean, from the very beginning 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: At PGA obviously Hiren and I did that for each other. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: But, um, but even as we hired people, uh, I don't know if it was so much us leading by example.

I mean, we obviously tried to do that, but I think you just end up attracting people that, that are like-minded and so they just come that way. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: You helpful. But it's also reinforced by, you know, the way we all act. So we as leaders now in the company, we. Uh, they people see us working that way and acting that way, and that makes it much easier.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Like we were talking about scaling in 300, 500, a thousand people. Does this work well? I think it works just fine because as you bring up these next generations, they see how they're supposed to, when they're in your seat, how they're supposed work, which is be a seller-doer. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Be ready to jump in and help somebody, whoever it is.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. [00:28:00] Yeah. We talk a lot about culture and I think that's part of the culture is, you know. Is, is a team effort and like helping people out when they've got things on. 'cause they, people, I mean, surely they know like that's either happened to them in the past or they, you know, sympathize or empathize with the situation and Yeah.

You know, and I think we do that, you know, not only just in the interview process, but like attracting, you know, those types of people that wanna help, you know? Um, and I think they wanna be successful too. I think they want to contribute, you know? I think they want to be a part of success. You're success.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: So, I mean. I think that's definitely one of the biggest attractions to, to PGA, for sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. I think at this point, with the numbers that we have and, and that many people that really do think and feel that way, it just, it's like a snowball effect. Like it just makes it easier when you're interviewing someone to go, okay, they're, they think the same way.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: They're gonna fit in just fine.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: As opposed to someone that's kind of more out for themselves. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, which wouldn't work. And I think when we [00:29:00] bring someone in that's worked somewhere else. Where, you know, there's, there's so many good people all over this industry. Engineers by nature are, you know, they're all good people.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And there's bad people really, but, um, people work differently. Yeah. And so you go to a lot of firms, there's more of a mix of, you know, people that are super helpful, maybe think of work like PGA and then some that don't. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and you get to work with all sorts. So when people work at those other companies and they come here, like, we've gotten that feedback.

Numerous times of how helpful everyone is. And you know, when I hear stuff like that, I'm like, what's the alternative? I don't understand what the alternative is to, to, to not help. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Oh, well the Alterna I guess. So, yeah. The alternative is to have your, you know, uh, billability and your Yeah, I guess so, you know, your hit your numbers and all that stuff.

Otherwise, you know, there's consequences and things like that. And you know, like, yeah. That doesn't seem to be, you know, super [00:30:00] helpful to influence a helping. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I guess so. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, mindset, you know. Yeah. Um, it's purely I've got, this is me, you're isolated and an individual and I gotta do this, you know? Um, definitely not the thing we're trying to, to do here.

Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, all right, so we talked, uh, I like your term work life sway. Um, I just really put a name to I think how, you know, I've always approached that, um. Uh, that term work-life balance. Obviously gaining more popularity recently, always kind of bristle at it, and I don't even know what the original intent behind it was, but it sort of mm-hmm.

Uh, grew this definition of, you know, this sort of eight to five mentality. It's always eight to five. If you're having a work, you know, late any day of the week, then. You know, you're, you're getting your work life balance screwed up and, uh, that doesn't work for this industry. It just doesn't. Um, but at the same [00:31:00] time, you don't wanna be working 60 hours a week for weeks on end.

And we don't, we don't want people to do that either. Um, what I've always found is a healthy balance because you can't always control The timelines is okay if, if it gets crazy and you're having to work crazy, uh, for several weeks. You need to sway into something easy, not easy, but nor more normal. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, lighter for a little while and that's, you know, you're running a large group and that's part of your job is to like, okay, well man, he's really been killing it for a while and I need to make sure I get him some help. Like I couldn't really do anything for there 'cause it was kinda his project and I was getting him as much help as I could, but I need to get him a little bit of a break and, you know.

So and so can jump in, right? 'cause they've been kind of on this one job and hasn't been too bad. Like you manage all of those things best we can. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, and we, of course we rely on feedback. Like you can't always be on top of everything either. So you create this culture and environment where people feel totally comfortable coming in and going, I'm dying out here.

Yeah. [00:32:00] Um, can you help me? And everybody's threshold is different too. Some people 50 hours a week isn't that big a deal. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right? 

Gordon Greene, PE: So again, it's work life sway. Yeah. Um, 50 hours to someone. They don't feel it. 50 hours for someone that's got little kids and some life situation, like 50 hours could be super inconvenient and detrimental and and disruptive to their life.

So it's important that we know what everyone has going on in their lives and try to accommodate that the best that we can. And you don't hold it against people either, you know? 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. Yeah. I would say, I mean, I feel like that's one of the biggest things maybe I picked up on, you know, I went. Back to school, got my master's in engineering management, which, um, you know, I thought was beneficial at the time just because, um, you know, engineers don't generally make the best managers, you know, I mean, it's just 'cause Oh, hey, like, you're really technical, you're really smart.

Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: You're good at your job, so you'll be good at this too. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right? But you're an introvert and you're not good. So I, I think managing to the individual is always, you know, the, the most important thing. And I [00:33:00] think, you know, knowing that maybe they're not. Gonna be, you know, we're all, I think we're all struggle with the communication part, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, we're not the best. Like that's not, you know, so being a project manager, you know, is like, Hey, that's the hard part of engineering. Maybe, I dunno, maybe not, but for some It depends on your personality. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But I think going, you know, making sure you approach people and making sure like, Hey, I, I've been noticing you've been, you know, cranking on this project for a while.

Um. You doing all right? You know? 

Yeah. Because, you know, my experience has been that a lot of times those people will do that and then they'll do it for a while and then they'll just leave 'cause they're tired of it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: You know, I think everybody's good until they're not. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And they just go off that cliff and I, I've seen that a lot.

So, um, definitely trying to avoid that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And we, we've, you've talked about retention, you know, how, how, um, low the turnover is at PGA, but. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I think making sure that [00:34:00] it's, it's balanced, but also trying to get people other experience like, yeah, you may be the best person for this, but like, hey, here's an opportunity 

Gordon Greene, PE: mm-hmm.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: To learn. Um, and so you can do it next time, you can do it more efficiently or you can teach the next 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. So that, that's actually a good example of, uh. That sort of more forward thinking, long-term thinking, it's easy if you're just focused and worried about, you know, profit or money or whatever. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Mm-hmm.

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, you just get somebody really good at this one thing and, and get 'em doing that. And that's the most efficient, profitable thing. But one, it's not the best for their career. And then what if you got a whole bunch of this other stuff to do? You can't just throw 'em on because guess what? They've never done it.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So think long term profitability or efficiency or however you wanna look at it. Cross training people and getting everybody, uh, pretty good at everything. Mm-hmm. Um, what we do is not rocket science, so you don't have to do something for years on end to be really good at it. Like if you're a good engineer, designer or whatever, like, you'll get pretty good at it.

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Fairly quick. [00:35:00] At least the, like the production type stuff. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, the, there's a lot to be said for, uh, intuition and judgment that come that, you know, that does take years to build, but 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: It doesn't take 40 years either. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: No. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: You were talking about, um, just that, that future mindset, I, it's like how many times have you been in a spot where, hey, we need this thing and it's gotta be done tonight or by noon or whatever.

Um, yeah. And in recently, yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Recent experience. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And let's pretend it's somebody who's never done it before and, or has only done it one time. Yeah. And you're just, that's, you're just not gonna get done by noon. Right. You know? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, so trying to make sure that in the moments when it's not due by noon, getting them the opportunity to do it, you know?

Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And then next time, maybe, you know, they can do it by noon or something like that. But, um, yeah. 'cause it is almost like a self preservation thing [00:36:00] too, where it's just kinda like. I just wanna make sure that this, like I've, I've had that happen. It sucks. Don't want that to happen ever again. Yeah. So, um, anyway.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. All right. What else do you wanna talk about today? 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, I was gonna say, I think one of the things that is important is making sure that you're not, even if you are a seller. That it doesn't feel like you're selling, right? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Um, I think most, at least in the industry that we're in, you're not like just selling necessarily a product.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: But, 

you know, anybody can do plans, anybody can do a variation. You know, anybody can do this. Maybe not everybody, but um. But you're selling trust. You know, you're selling the quality part. You're selling yourself, like knowing that like, Hey, I'm gonna be there for you to make sure this gets done. [00:37:00] Um, and so when you're a project manager and say, you know, you're also have done it, you're the doer as well.

Partly, um, you can, they can trust you to know that, hey, this is gonna get done. Um, you're not just gonna hand it off to some person that I don't know. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: And I don't. Are they gonna get it done? Like, you know. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. They'll wait and switch. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Yeah. And if, I mean, I'm just, if I was a, an owner or a client and somebody did that to me, I would feel very nervous and anxious a lot of the time.

And we don't want, we don't want that for our clients and, you know, we want to make them trust us and feel comfortable with us and continue to use us. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I would definitely say as we, as we kind of wrap up here, um. I'm glad we came back to a real positive aspect of the seller-doer is, um, you go and sell the thing and they, they know and can trust that you're gonna then come back and do the thing and do it well, [00:38:00] um, and continue that relationship and, and get a project done.

Yeah. Which is what we love to do. Yeah. And you're very good at it. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: That's very kind. 

Gordon Greene, PE: All right. So that'll, that'll be a wrap for this episode of PGA Breaking the Ice Podcast. Trevor Hawkins, thanks for being here, talking seller-doer with me. 

Trevor Hawkins, PE: Thanks for having me. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Absolutely. And, uh, we're gonna end the podcast the way we end our, our holiday parties, our interviews, whenever we can slip it in at the end, at, on the count of three.

We're gonna do it. All right. Ready? Ready. 1, 2, 3, Go PGA! Wasn't bad.