A Tale of Two Business Models: Growth Philosophies and Defining Success

In this episode of PGA’s Breaking the ICE podcast, host Gordon Greene, PE sits down with Megan Lerner, PE of Garrett Engineering Group to discuss how differences in their business models shape the structure of their firms, influence growth strategies, and impact the way they navigate challenges in the industry.

Megan shares her perspective on leading a fully remote firm, the importance of creating work-life balance, and what it means to work within a small but mighty team of 10 engineers that continues to set a high standard and win projects. They also explore how flexibility, trust, and strong team dynamics can help firms grow and thrive.

Tune in to hear from:

• Gordon Greene, PE – Co-Founder & Executive Vice President (Host): He’s the embodiment of a competitive spirit, and that motivation has fueled his work as an engineer, business owner, and civic volunteer for the past 25 years. He loves talking with people about where those passions overlap! Come join the conversation!
• Megan Lerner, PE – Vice President of Garrett Engineering (Guest): With more than 19 years of experience, Megan brings a strategic, delivery-focused perspective to Garrett Engineering’s roadway practice. As Vice President, she leads a small but mighty multidisciplinary transportation team of 10, helping public sector clients across Florida move projects forward with confidence while fostering the flexibility and agility of a fully remote firm.

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Transcript

Gordon Greene: [00:00:00] Welcome to Breaking the ICE. We're Patel, Greene and Associates and we are here to tell stories about our three favorite things, business, culture, and engineering. Let's get to it.

Coming up, 

Megan Lerner: we're gonna team with PGA and, and we're gonna win this. It was the first letter we put in and we were very fortunate to be able to be shortlisted and, and then win. So 

Gordon Greene: at times, I'm not sure how y'all produce what you produce. 

Megan Lerner: Marketing, a lot of marketing. Small but mighty is, you know, how we try to try to sell it.

Gordon Greene: Alright, well welcome back to PGA's Breaking the ICE podcast. I am your host, Gordon Greene, and I am, uh, happy to have with us our guest, Megan Lerner, with Garrett Engineering Group to join us, um, not our first non-PGAer but, uh, we're, we're excited to, to bring on these guests that, um, don't work for me, um, so we can get some real, uh, you know.

Honest conversation. Um, so, um, thank you for being here. 

Megan Lerner: Thanks for having me. 

Gordon Greene: [00:01:00] Um, I think we'll start, uh, by letting you introduce yourself a little bit. Um, and I think a good part of that'll be, uh, not only some of your background and and what you do, but you know, how our companies kind of came together and started working together and, um, you know, even like you and I working on projects together.

And then we'll, we'll get into some other fun topics as, as well. So, um, yeah, take it away. 

Megan Lerner: So I'm Megan Lerner with Garrett Engineering Group. Um, I have been with, um, Garrett for about 10 years now. Um, we started our own firm, or I joined Erbie who had been by himself, um, a couple years before he brought me on.

And, um, back, back then, you guys were just a small firm and we were starting out. Um, team together to win projects. Um, I mostly joined Garrett Engineering to be able to work from home, like we are a full work from home company. And, um, Erbie and I kind of started that with the values based on just having a good work life balance and being able to get [00:02:00] time back, you know, to, to place that importance on our family.

So, yeah. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. Yeah. Y'all been doing that, uh, way before COVID was a thing. 

Megan Lerner: Way before COVID was a thing. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: It was easy. So that phase zero. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah, that's true. 

Gordon Greene: Um, well, let's go back in time a little bit. Like you said. Um, Erbie started Garrett Engineering Group, uh, probably a year or so before we started PGA, something like that.

Um, and by the time we started he was still, you know, just Erbie. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Um, which was enough for what he's doing. You know, he's, his background's in traffic and so. That was perfect for us. 'cause we didn't, we're roadway, drainage people. So, uh, a lot of those early BDI projects. Mm-hmm. And I think we'll probably get into some of that.

Um, that was huge for us. I know that's been huge for y'all. Um, and, uh, I think, uh, well we, he worked with us on a, on our first District One win and sort of a QC role. And there's, there's stories that go with that, that we

Megan Lerner: mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: That we might not get into. But, um, District Two was the first one where. Um, we, we had Erbie on the team as the, as the traffic [00:03:00] person doing all of it for us.

Uh, and that started a really, really good relationship that continues to this day. Um, and of course y'all have built out a lot since then. You know, like you said, he brought you on, I think, first. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Um, and then I think maybe Carlos after that. 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: And then, so now you got a roadway team and a, and a traffic team.

And then y'all of course, have built out your own teams quite a bit since then. Um, and, and we've enjoyed, uh, seeing that and, you know, being some small. Uh, part of it. Um, and of course, yeah, receiving some small part of it too, as y'all continue to grow. Um, but I think, uh, for you, uh, and I don't know if this is the first project you won as a prime.

It was the first one that, that we were a part of anyway. Um, and of course I'll never forget this project, but you know, when you mentioned the other day that that was the first one we worked on, I had forgotten that part of the story. Um, but then it clicked, um, why we, uh, we connected so well and continue to work well together because.

That was a, that was a very challenging project. 

Megan Lerner: Hard project. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. Uh, and we don't have to to go back all, all the way into that project, [00:04:00] but maybe that's like a little bit about, uh, you know, you winning that project because, was that your first win as a PM? 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, um, when Erbie was approaching me to join Garrett Engineering, I wasn't a person who ever like, really considered myself like, Hey, I wanna own my own business and I wanna, you know, be a partner of a firm.

You know, I was. Working for a big firm and I was happy, um, but I was working a lot. I was, you know, young and, you know, at that time, single traveling, you know, kind of looking at success in a different way. And so, um, when he approached me, he said, you know, I wanna bring you on this week. We can be partners, we can grow this.

You can win roadway work. I can win traffic work, you know, we'll be a team. And, um, I started thinking about it and at that time I was having my first baby and, you know, my priorities were shifting and I was judging success a lot differently. So wearing a suit and traveling, you know, [00:05:00] wasn't quite as appealing anymore.

You know, if I could be home with my son at the time, it was, it was a, a big deal. So, um, he brought me on and I'll have to say I was a little nervous at first because I don't really know traffic. Um, I was roadway. That was it. That's what I knew how to do. And so. We would talk and I would say, yeah, but like, well, what am I gonna do when I like start?

Like, what am I actually gonna be doing during the day? And he's like, well, you're gonna win work. And I'm like, okay. So that's what I did. You know, I, I was fortunate enough to be able to spend some time working, working in-house over here at District One, so I had developed a lot of relationships with the PMs over there.

And that's, that's kind of where we started. You know, we looked at what projects were available, what we thought would be a good fit, and there just happened to be a good sidewalk, small project we thought. And, um, you know, you guys have been so gracious to bring him along on your team. It, it was just, you know, there was just never a thought about it.

It was like, Hey, we're gonna team with PGA and, and we're gonna win this. And, you know, [00:06:00] it was the first letter we put in and we were very fortunate to be able to be shortlisted and, and then win. So, 

Gordon Greene: Very impressive. And, um, thinking about, it's bringing back some memories now. Uh, so I remember that I didn't go in that interview with you.

Hiren did. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: And I can't remember why. Probably schedule conflicts or something like that. So, um, you know, and, and Hiren went in, um, and, you know, did a good job. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Apparently. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: Um, and you know, you knocked it outta the park and, and you win. But, uh, I was gonna be the EOR because 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: It was District One and that's, they knew me a little bit better than Hiren.

And I can still remember. It's funny how you remember some things, like you just don't forget 'em. I remember the scope meeting back when you actually went over there. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: For a person, in person scope meeting. And Hiren had got me up to speed. We're gonna put the sidewalk, uh, down US 41 and there's these permitted linear ponds.

And you had come up with a concept, I think, to avoid a lot of those impacts. And I thought, okay, that's cool. It won't be, won't be bad. And then the scope meeting, they go, Nope, we want this and it's gotta [00:07:00] go here. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: And I go, oh, this just became a drainage job. Sweet. So that worked out for us. Um, but it was, it ended up being very challenging.

You know, the stakeholders were challenging. Uh, the contractor ended up being pretty challenging.

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Um, and we've, we've talked about this already on this podcast, on previous episodes, about, at least internally, uh, you find yourself in the trenches with your team a lot, right? Getting a submittal out the door, getting ready for presentation.

You get a lot of that in the trenches, work with each other, and those bonds are formed and it just makes for a really good, cohesive team. But that can and does extend even outside of your own firm like we did on that 41 project where. You know, we were in the trenches figuring stuff out, you know, um, venting when needed.

And, um, and when everybody's on the same page like we were, and we work, work similarly, um, you know, hardworking and all that stuff, um, it, it really does a lot for relationships. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: So, um, always enjoyed working with you and, and really [00:08:00] every, everyone at, at Garrett. 

Megan Lerner: Same, 

Gordon Greene: Y'all are great. 

Megan Lerner: Thank you. It's easy when the job is easy, when it's hard is, is, is when you really see what everybody's made of.

Gordon Greene: Exactly. Okay. So you've already hinted a little bit about, uh, this unique model that, that Garrett Engineering has, and like literally from the get-go, uh, y'all have been operating that way. It's what enticed you, uh, 

Megan Lerner: correct 

Gordon Greene: to, to make the move. So, um, tell us a little bit more, give us a little bit behind the scenes on this, uh, work from home model and, um, what that's looked like from, you know, day one to today as you and I don't even know, like, uh, looking forward to this episode.

Um, folks have asked, well, how many people do they have? And I'm like, you know, I don't know more than three. I know that. Um, yes. But, but I'm actually curious. So yeah, tell us a little bit more about, uh, how that's working and for y'all and how that's changed over, over the last decade or so. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. Um, so we're currently 10, um, which I think is very surprising to a lot of people when they hear that number because they are surprised by the type of work and the amount of work that you [00:09:00] can win with a 10 person firm.

And then

Gordon Greene: I still at, at times, I'm not sure how y'all produce what you produce. 

Megan Lerner: Me too. Um, and with it being totally work from home, that that can be challenging. Right. And so, um, I think over the years we have faced whatever the challenges were to solve 'em. Um, very early on, Erbie and I both knew that we wanted the flexibility.

And you know, I think you mentioned on your previous podcast you would. Go into work, you would go home at five, you would go back to work and work till midnight, and then your wife was home, you know, too many nights. 

Gordon Greene: Right. 

Megan Lerner: Um, and so the whole concept of being able to work from home is even if you are still working, being able to be present, right.

And love for your family. So, um, I knew from the start, Erbie knew from the start, and we just said, why can't we, because nobody else has done it? Like, that's, that's not a reason, 

Gordon Greene: Right. 

Megan Lerner: So, yeah, we have some things that we have to overcome. You know, how are we gonna file share? What does our computer system look like?

You don't have a traditional server. Everything is, you [00:10:00] know, more on a work workstation, um, type situation versus, you know, putting servers out there. 

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: Or, you know, software updates in that way. So, you know, we found ways and well before Teams was ever a thing. there was, there was another program that we used to use called TeamViewer.

I don't know if you're familiar with that.

Gordon Greene: I think can remember that. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

It's a long, it's a ways back, but you know, a lot of screen sharing. 

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: A lot of collaboration in ways that didn't necessarily mean we were sitting across the table from each other, but we were collaborating in the same way.

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: So, um, today we have not only are all of our employees work from home, but they're not actually all even stationed in the same city. Um, so we have pretty much people working in every district that we do work in. So, um, I have one of my team members in District Five, um, she's very integral, integral to that district because she's able to be there in person.

She's able to go out into the field and check things very efficiently. Where I would be traveling, you know, from Tampa to [00:11:00] Daytona or wherever. 

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: You know, um, we have another one of our team members in District Two who provides that same service for us, and it allows them, um, us to be more efficient when we're spread out.

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: Um, that way. We do, um, get together once a quarter, um, so we do meet at a central location in person, once a quarter, for lunch. Um, nothing too serious, but you know, we get to have that interaction with each other and, you know, connect on a face-to-face level. Um, but just because we're spread out and we're work from home doesn't mean there's any less collaboration going on than, um, you know, just being together in the office.

Gordon Greene: Awesome. So as you brought people on, did you ever face any challenges, um, maintaining that, um, have any issues, uh, with recruiting with that very unique model? 

Megan Lerner: Yeah, so, work from home model is not for everyone. Um, I think it can be very enticing for people and that has drawn us, um, in a lot of employees. So on one hand it has helped us gain or recruit employees, but on the [00:12:00] other hand, we have met with people who have just thought out, said like, yeah, that's not for me.

I don't, I don't wanna work from, 

Gordon Greene: and you want 'em to be honest. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. And then there's other people who think they wanna work from home, but when you actually get into it, it, it's just not a good fit for them. And so, um, we can kind of tell that pretty early on if it's gonna be, you know, a good model and it doesn't work for everyone.

Um, but it, you know, we have a core group of people that have really been able to thrive, you know, in that work environment. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. Do you think, um, because y'all are a little bit smaller and you probably have a real good read on each other in terms of like productivity, um, when someone comes in and they think they want to do it, what's the.

Uh, what's the trigger where you go, this isn't working? Is it productivity? Do they say, I thought I would like this, but I don't. They probably don't say that. You have to figure it out. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: So how do you normally figure that out? 

Megan Lerner: Yeah, so, um, it's, it's productivity, right? So when [00:13:00] we're a small firm, right, we're 10 people.

We do have a, we've been very fortunate to win a good amount of work, and so. You have to work at a, a more efficient pace. And, um, our core group of people are great at that. Um, it's no longer just about being at the office from nine to five. Well, I have all day to do this. It's like, Hey, if I get this done, I have some time left over.

So everybody's efficiency, um, rises above. So the efficiency bar is set really high at Garrett Engineering. And so when someone comes on board, you can kind of tell, you know, pretty quickly that, yeah, they're working all day long. Or they might be saying they're working all day long, but their work doesn't show that they're working all day long.

So that's kind of how, how we've been able to, to see it. 

Gordon Greene: And I imagine at the size y'all are at like that, you can't probably put up with that for too long. Right. You gotta deal with it. 

Megan Lerner: Right. Right. 

Gordon Greene: Hopefully haven't had to deal with that too many times. 

Megan Lerner: Not too many times. There's been [00:14:00] a couple and you know, we've just been tried to be really honest and say like, you know, we don't think it's the best environment for you.

Like nothing that you're a bad engineer or that you're not a good worker or a good person. We just think that you would benefit from being in an environment where you can get more hands on, like either training, or guidance, or, 

Gordon Greene: yeah, 

Megan Lerner: supervision. 

Gordon Greene: So you give them the, it's not you. It's me. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: Pretty much.

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: It works for Costanza. That's a Seinfeld joke, Amanda. Um, okay. Yeah, you mentioned being a mom. Um, anything else you wanted to share about, um, what that has meant? Because from the beginning, that's a reason that, that you right, that you did it right. Anything else you wanna share on that, on what that's meant for you?

Megan Lerner: Uh, just like, you know, I've been fortunate enough to be able to be present for my children. You know, I leave every day and pick them up from school because I think that's an important part of hearing about their day. Um, when they're sick, [00:15:00] they can be home. I don't have to, you know, rely on grandma and, and that kind of stuff.

So I've just been blessed to be able to be home with them. Um, all three of them, which they're getting older now and, you know, maybe at some point that will change, but being there in the younger years was always real important to me. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah, yeah. We just talked about you going up to D3, so 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: You'll, you'll miss a couple pickups anyway.

Megan Lerner: That's true. You know, uh, we have to be there for the client and so I'm fortunate enough to have my parents close by so they can fill in the gaps when needed. But it's not too often. 

Gordon Greene: No, nothing can be perfect, but it does sound like, um, an awesome, an awesome setup and a good, a good balance, so. All right.

Anything else you wanna share on the unique Garrett Engineering work from home model world, world class model? 

Megan Lerner: Um, I think a lot of people don't maybe understand it. Um, I think when you get to a certain size, it might not work anymore. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. 

Megan Lerner: Um, you know, there's going, there would be challenges for sure if we were much bigger than we are.

Um, and [00:16:00] so that has really played a lot of, uh, played into a lot of the decisions that Erbie and I, you know, have made in terms of growth for our company. Um, you know, we started out at the same time, we were growing one person a year and you were growing 20. And so, you know, Erbie and I would look at each other and we're like, she, what do you think?

Should we grow like that? Do you wanna do that? No. Do you wanna do that? No. Okay, good. We're, we're still, we're still good with just, you know, staying the same size, so. It's been a choice, you know, and it maybe it has hindered some growth to be able to maintain this model, but keeping that model was important to us.

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: And so that's the choice. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. And I think we'll get into that a little bit later too, because you said something at the beginning, the podcast about seeing, I think you said seeing success differently. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: Um, and so I think that actually we won't, we won't get too far ahead of ourselves. Um, but I think that's a, a perfect example of that.

And, and we've talked on this podcast too before about like identity and knowing, knowing yourself as a firm. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm.

Gordon Greene: Uh, and as a culture. Um, and I think that's really important 'cause there's [00:17:00] so many ways to be successful. 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: Um, you know, I think outside of just mediocrity and 

Megan Lerner: mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Poor performance 

Megan Lerner: mm-hmm.

Gordon Greene: Uh, will prevent you from being successful. But, um, uh, otherwise there it is really more about. How you wanna do it. 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: And you can be, you can be successful in a bunch of different ways. Okay, so let's talk about, um, DBE and, and SBE programs. So, uh, both DBEs actually, I think we are not a DBE anymore. Um, and certainly by the time this comes out, that'll be totally official.

Um, but you all have been a DBE, continue to be a DBE, but that doesn't, you know, doesn't, you know, mean what it, what it used to mean necessarily. 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: Um, so let's talk a little bit about that, um, about, um, you know, being a small business, growing a firm, uh, taking advantage of some of those programs.

Maybe what, um, either the the BDI SBE [00:18:00] program and the DBE program, what that has meant for y'all. And I can kind of share some of the same and then. What we do from here? 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. Um, so from early on we knew that having a DBE would be important, especially when, um, Erbie was just a one person firm and he relied on a lot of sub work.

Um, you know, when the certain portion of the project is set aside and required for DBE participation, there's an incentive, you know, for some of the bigger firms who use the smaller form firms or, or share the work. So definitely the, the early days, the, the DBE, I think is what allowed him to kind of move away from being at a firm and, and startup.

So it's always been an important program to us. Um, we've always been very cognizant of maintaining the DBE requirements, you know, uh, not outgrowing the program. You know, staying a certain size, being very cognizant of winning work on when we're winning work. And, and, you know, the DBE program is, is based on gross [00:19:00] revenue.

So you have to think about that in terms of not only what you're winning, but what you're, you know, you're getting away. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. 

Megan Lerner: So, um, it's always been important to us. The, the, the BDI program, we have also been incredibly successful. successful with. I think those programs by design have allowed us to compete with firms that are our size, which has been really important.

You know, um, when you look at PGA or Garrett, the depth of resources just, you know, are not the same. So when you have projects set aside, it kind of allows us to compete on the same level of, of firms our size. 

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: Um, so there's been changes to the program recently, um, maybe even more by the time this airs.

Because I think there's still a lot of uncertainty about, you know, what that means. But, um, you know, with the sun setting of the program or the changes or, you know, whatever that ends up being, um, small businesses really rely on those types of policies. And when there's big policy changes like that, um, [00:20:00] you have to find a way to pivot.

So finding the way to pivot at this point is where we're at, you know, kind of in that process and finding out what that means for us. Um, relying on our relationships for sub work instead of 

Gordon Greene: mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: The actual requirements, 

Gordon Greene: right. 

Megan Lerner: So to speak. 

Gordon Greene: Well, I, I know, uh, ironically, we find ourselves in the same position, even though we're much different sizes.

Um, but also similarly, um, I think we, we probably on some level, um, always wanted to grow and, and maybe in one day, maybe if we could grow outta the program early on, we had no idea. Uh, what that timeline would be like. But we knew we wanted to grow, and so we thought, well, maybe we'll out of it one day. And, um, and the, the answer to that, to be ready for that, is to be able to win your own prime work.

But by the time we even started thinking about that, like you all, we just decided we would rather prime work anyway. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Especially with the BDI program, [00:21:00] because I just prefer being in control of the project. 

Megan Lerner: Sure. 

Gordon Greene: Um, and so we were already, uh, you know equipped to do that. Lots of success doing that.

So we were confident that, that we could win our own work. Um, but in addition to that, we knew we had to be the kind of firm that, that other firms would want on their team. Not because of the DBE, but because we're good at what we do. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: And then the DBE is just a bonus. And I know that's, y'all, y'all approach it the same way.

Um, so I have no, uh, you know, doubt that you all will be just fine. Especially with the BDI threshold going up. So you can stay in that. You, you could even grow a little bit, I would imagine. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Probably quite a bit, I would imagine. And, and stay on, certainly under the, the raised threshold. So I guess that's some silver lining to it.

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Um, so, um, I think that's interesting that, that, um, we did kind of take the same approach, uh, in a way. Um, but it's also, uh, kind of back to that [00:22:00] identity of. I don't, I just wanna be a sub to everyone. 'cause some of these primes, you know, maybe I don't wanna work with them all the time. I'd rather, you know, have control of the project and do it the way that I wanna do it.

Um, and so, yeah, so changes are coming. Um, you know, we've talked a little bit about what we've done to prepare for our, um, DBE graduation, which we could see coming. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: You know, as we got closer to it and we can kind of project out growth, we can go, okay. I think we have one year left or two years left.

We better make sure. Not only, yes, we can win our own prime work. We checked that box a long time ago, but now it's, are people gonna want us on their team? 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: Uh, when we graduating, we don't give them DBE points. We better start putting them on our teams more now. Um, so that there's some, you know, you can play the game or whatever later.

Um, what's that look like for you all? Probably kind of the same but a little bit different. 'cause I don't chase as much work as us 'cause. 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: You don't have to. 

Megan Lerner: Right. So I will say, you know, early [00:23:00] on, um, finding out how much work is the right amount of work is really difficult. Um, we spent the first several years trying to say, do we go after and try to win another project?

Do we hold back? Do we have enough staff? Do we wanna grow? If we grow, then do we have to win more projects? And where does this hamster wheel, you know, kind of take us? And so I, I don't know if we really know um, what this change in the BDI program is gonna look for, look like for us. Um, I think right now it's just to try to continue to leverage our relationships with the people that we're working with.

Um, provide good work. So they wanna have us, you know, on their team, like you said. Um, and then I think we are gonna have to market more. You know, it's, it's taking on new districts, it's, you know, looking for new partnerships, you know. I have always been really big on creating new partnerships. Um, pretty much any firm that reaches out to [00:24:00] me, we at least meet and find out, sure, hey, how, how can we benefit each other?

What, what does that look like? So, you know, maybe you're doing good in one district and I'm doing good in another, and, and how can we, you know, pull our resources together? So I think a lot of it in the future is gonna be that, you know, creating new partnerships, um, bringing on new clients, marketing, a lot of marketing, 

Gordon Greene: a lot of marketing.

Yeah. Uh, it's funny, this, this conversation, it keeps coming back to, um, that sort of identity thing and deciding what you want to be. And you, I imagine you, you have to have go no-go meetings and then there's a real chance there's like a no-go because you're not really looking to grow like that. That decision was always easy for us.

We never had the meeting. It was always go because we wanted to grow, 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: There was a good bit of our, of our history where. Um, we had plenty of success recruiting. We're kind of at a size where we could go after everything and we could never [00:25:00] hire fast enough, you know? 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Um, and then you get to the point, you get to a certain size where that's not necessarily the case, at least not with each and every group.

You kind of have to look at a little bit closer. And so we, we, we kind of have no go, no go meetings, but, um, what's the answer usually Go, go. So we're still, we're still kind of a go, but. Um, but that's because that's us. We wanna grow, we wanna see how big we can grow and 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: Uh, do it smartly and all that stuff that, that we want to grow.

Um, early on we would have some of those. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: I remember we had, we had gut check meetings very, very long in PGA, sort of like, so you and Erbie have the conversation of, is that what we wanna do? And he says, no, I don't. I just wanna stay like this. And you, me too. And so you're, you're on the same page, boom.

Now you can rock and roll. Um, we'd have those conversations here. And it's like, okay, if we, if we're gonna go and do this thing, eventually we're gonna graduate outta this and graduate outta that. 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: Is that what we wanna do? And you know, you know, we were at a size where there were a couple people, [00:26:00] which is why I asked the question a couple people.

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe not. But the majority was, heck yes, man, let's go. 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: So again, outside of a couple outliers, um, and of course those people, you know, work themselves out over time again because, not because they're bad people or 

Megan Lerner: mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: They don't think right. It's because. They no longer fall in line with the vision of, you know, the company.

Megan Lerner: Right. Right. 

Gordon Greene: And what our identity is becoming. Um, and so now we are on the same page. Now we can rock and roll in, in our direction, just like y'all have done in your direction. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. And I think, you know, looking at not only the projects in, um, quantity, like the amount of projects, but also the type of project or the size.

You look back, uh, I, I look back over the last 10 years and there's been some very integral wins and some really tough losses, right? So the one that you were like, Hey, we're, we're a firm of three. You wanna go after a $5 million districtwide? Yeah. Let, let's do that. You know, like we, [00:27:00] we do wanna grow at this point, but who's gonna take us seriously as a firm of three if we want a $5 million contract?

In those days, it was showing up with a team, you know? 

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: And saying, you know, we have the depth of resources. Maybe, maybe we're at Garrett at three, but I can deliver your project or your program because of the depth of resources that I have. So our no go, go no-go. Meetings are a lot about our teaming partners.

You know, how we can leverage our relationships and show a depth of staff that we don't have directly. Um, in house per se, but how we work so cohesively together because we've been working together for so long that a lot of our teaming partners are an extension, you know, of our firm to, to kinda beef us up, you know, small, small but mighty as

Gordon Greene: mm-hmm.

Megan Lerner: You know, how we try to, try to sell it. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. Well and you're really good in the, in the interview and a presentation. Um, so it, it really didn't surprise me. Uh, and I probably had almost nothing to do with that interview either 'cause it was District [00:28:00] Seven. Um, but when I heard you won, of course I was very happy because I knew we were on the team and I knew that what that meant for us.

Um, but I was like, yeah, of course you did. 

Megan Lerner: I I was surprised. I have to.

Gordon Greene: Yeah. Well that's, yeah, you, you wanna feel that way, uh, if it's you, but outside looking in, it's like, well, of course she did 

Megan Lerner: every single one. I wanna win. I mean, you know, we've had these discussions. I'm very competitive. I, I always, you know, wanna go to the highest level of, uh, excellence for our clients.

So, um, winning has always been a big 

Gordon Greene: well, but you back it up with the effort. Everybody wants to win. Um, but not everybody backs it up with the, let's roll up the sleeves and figure this out and 

Megan Lerner: Right. 

Gordon Greene: And go knock, you know, knock it outta the park. I was thinking too on, uh, I guess last, maybe last point on, um, DBE SBE stuff, uh, add, allowing the non BDI firms back in.

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Um, I'm, I'm thinking if I'm you, that should hopefully help because, uh, well, one. As other BDI firms graduate, if it was a purely BDI program, like it, like it [00:29:00] was 

Megan Lerner: mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: When it started, you kind of start to run out of reliable options. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: For subs. Um, uh, but more on the teaming aspect. If you can bring in, you know, a non BDI firm like PGA, um, now you, you're able to get on there so you can play that reciprocate reciprocation game even if you're not chasing all these non BDI jobs.

'cause y'all are small and you can't, or whatever. Um, you can keep pounding away at the BDI, which, uh, there have been some really good BDI firms that have started somewhat recently. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Um, I, I feel like there for a while, you know, there were some firms that graduated when we graduated that were really good, continued to be really good firms.

Um, but it left, like it left. I don't know how it felt, you know, still in the program. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: But again, sort of outside looking in, I'm like, there are, there are a few firms still there. Y'all certainly one of 'em. It's like varsity and jv. Like I hope you know, y'all, y'all kind of cleaned up there for a while.

So that made me very happy. [00:30:00] Um, but a few have come back in, so. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: You know, um, competition's getting a, a little, 

Megan Lerner: it's getting tough. 

Gordon Greene: A little tougher again. Yeah. You'll be fine. Um, but anyway, yeah, having that non BDI. How is that, how do you perceive that? Does that really affect you? I mean, you're subbing stuff out anyway.

Megan Lerner: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: So what do you care? Does it actually help you? 

Megan Lerner: It did help me. I, I kind of view it as the DBE program in reverse. Right? 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. 

Megan Lerner: So, yeah, like I said, you know, you, I think a lot of the bigger firms were complaining, like, you know, why are you setting aside this portion of the work program? Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: Because they were getting bigger too.

The projects are getting bigger. 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. You know, their projects are getting bigger. We don't think it's fair. Um, you mentioned that a lot of good subs were graduating the program, and so that did make teaming a little bit tough. 

Gordon Greene: Mm-hmm. 

Megan Lerner: Um, I was always for opening up a small percentage of it, but keeping the prime, having to be certified as, as a BDI, because like I mentioned before, when you're competing with other firms, your size and your depth of resources makes, it, does make a big difference, you [00:31:00] know?

Um. You were putting together a marketing presentation with your entire marketing department, it's going to have a level of, you know, expertise that say we're probably not gonna be able to provide because I'm gonna be doing the PowerPoint, you know, and while I am, I'm able to, it's not gonna be as savvy.

Right. So I think leveling the playing field by keeping the primes as BDI was important, but adding the non BDI. BDI percentage was also important of, we were having a hard time finding surveyors because there wasn't very many surveyors who were still BDI and the ones that were, had too much work, so it was hard for them to deliver a project on schedule.

I think that was the biggest benefit, um, to what we sub out. 

Gordon Greene: I could see that 

Megan Lerner: and, and I think, you know, that part of the program, opening up that part of the program did. Benefit us. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah, probably Geotechs too, right? 

Megan Lerner: Yeah. Geotechs. There wasn't very many. So some of your, your specialized firms that can grow quickly, you know, they just [00:32:00] graduated fast.

Yeah. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. That makes sense. Um, we've kind of hit on this a little bit. I think the last thing we'll touch on is, uh, sort of differing philosophy. So we've talked about y'all, uh, really prioritizing this work from home, uh, atmosphere, the culture that you all have. The system that you've built to be like highly, highly productive, um, with a, with a small group.

And, and then it's building out your teams, uh, with no real like long-term plans to be this big firm. Um, it's just not important. So that's how y'all see success and you're maximizing that view of success, in my opinion. It's really, really impressive. Uh, as opposed to PGO every year, like, let's, you know, hire everybody we can and see how big we can grow and.

Um, and that's how we see, at least that's part of how we see success, right? Um, and so we chase that down. We put all our effort into that. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Um, and, and try to look back and go, okay, that's, we achieved that and y'all can do the same thing. 

Megan Lerner: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene: Year over there. I mean, like, like we've talked about, we started about the same time and we're, you know, [00:33:00] whatever, we are 160 something and y'all are 10, but we can both look back after, you know, 15 years for y'all we're almost at 15, and go, we did it.

We did exactly what we wanted to do, just how we wanted to do it. So. Very, very impressive. Um, anything else on that? Any, any thoughts on that? 

Megan Lerner: Um, yeah, I mean, I think you, you know, certainly for me, I had to re, you know, kind of retrain myself to think about what success looked like, because I think, you know, when you're coming out of college, you're looking to go to like, you know, a fancy job and you wanna dress up.

And if you're traveling or you feel like you're really important, um, or you're attending these big meetings, or you're having a lot of responsibility, then that's what success means. And so for me now, um, I have seen that you can be just as successful and just as profitable by working, you know, at home.

Um, I have a space dedicated, you know, uh, I think that's an important part of working from home. 

Gordon Greene: Yeah. 

Megan Lerner: Is you can't just be sitting at the dining room table. It doesn't work well that way. Um, [00:34:00] but, you know, having a dedicated space, um, having a small firm where everybody does multiple things, so. You know, if someone says to me like, oh, who can I talk about for accounting?

Yeah, I can, I can help you with that. Who can I talk about for marketing? Yeah, I can help you with that. Who can I talk about for this engineering problem? Like yeah, I can help you with that. And that's how everyone, you know on our team is so, um, working from home may seem like a lot of distance between us, but we actually do work, you know, very well and very collaboratively.

And as a result, each one of my team members, you know, can see that same success. 

Gordon Greene: That's awesome. All right. Um, I think that's all we had. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about while we were here today? 

Megan Lerner: I don't think so. 

Gordon Greene: All right. Well, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and talking with me about these things.

Um, it's always, every single one of these we've done, it's at least a little bit, uh, back down memory lane, uh, yeah, which is always a lot of fun. So, um, always been great working with you. Look forward [00:35:00] to many, many more years, uh, ahead, working together. Um, I wish you, you guys all, all the luck. 

Megan Lerner: Thank you. You as well.

Gordon Greene: All right, thanks Megan. Alright, that'll do it, uh, for us here on PGA's Breaking the ICE Podcast. Normally we in with a Go PGA, uh, do you feel like doing a go PGA, 

Megan Lerner: I dunno if I know the Go PGA 

Gordon Greene: we just said Go PGA. There's no secret to it. I said we, we just end it with a Go PGA on the count of three. 1, 2, 3, Go PGA.