Bridging I.T. and Engineering: The Emerging Discipline

In this episode of PGA’s Breaking the ICE podcast, host Gordon Greene, PE sits down with Design Development Group Leader Eddie Giese, PE to discuss bridging the gap between IT and our core disciplines.

Eddie shares his experience navigating different stages of the engineering career path and the pressures of moving. They also explore the importance of conferences and training sessions, sharing knowledge to learn from others, and finding your niche within the engineering profession.

Tune in to hear from:

• Gordon Greene, PE – Co-Founder & Executive Vice President (Host): He’s the embodiment of a competitive spirit, and that motivation has fueled his work as an engineer, business owner, and civic volunteer for the past 25 years. He loves talking with people about where those passions overlap! Come join the conversation!
• Eddie Giese, PE – Design Development Group Leader (Guest): With more than 19 years of experience in highway and transportation design, Eddie is one of a kind in the way he bridges IT and engineering. He trains consultants on FDOTConnect and OpenRoads Designer and leads workshops covering a wide range of topics, including 3D modeling, plan development, automated quantities, and 2D basics. Driven by a passion for efficiency, Eddie has created tools that help us work more accurately and make more time for what matters most: our loved ones.

Check out our trainings and other opportunities with our Design Development Group here: https://www.patelgreene.com/services/design-development/

Connect with us on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/patelgreene 

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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/patelgreene

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@patelgreene

Transcript

Gordon Greene, PE: [00:00:00] Welcome to Breaking the ICE. We're Patel, Greene & Associates, and we're here to tell stories about our three favorite things: business, culture, and engineering. Let's get to it.

Coming up. 

Eddie Giese, PE: I want to enjoy the people that I'm spending all this time with. Invited to, like, conferences, and presenting at, you know, different user groups around the country. At PGA, our willingness to, like, really lean into innovation and sit in the space between IT and our design disciplines. Yeah. Now we're able to offer continuing education credits to people in Florida and even outside the state.

Gordon Greene, PE: All right, well, welcome to PGA's Breaking the ICE podcast. Really happy to have Eddie Giese with me today. 

Eddie Giese, PE: That's me. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And to- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Rhymes with ICE... 

Gordon Greene, PE: Rhymes with ICE. Exactly. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Easy to remember. 

Gordon Greene, PE: If you're wondering how to say his name, just remember he was on Breaking the ICE. It's Eddie Giese. Um, man, really happy to have you here, [00:01:00] 

uh- 

Eddie Giese, PE: I'm thrilled.

Yeah ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: For this, uh, episode. Uh, you just start out with a little bit of an introduction. Let you introduce yourself. Um, uh, just kind of maybe very b- b- brief background and then, um, we'll tell a little story about, well, I guess, how we came to know each other, um, but like- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah 

Gordon Greene, PE: Then how you, uh, came to be PGA.

Eddie Giese, PE: Came to know each other again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I got- I have a roadway background. Um, gosh, 20 years now, which hurts to say. Probably see the gray hairs. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Never gets a l- any easier. But, um, yeah, I kind of, you know, I've moved around a little bit geographically, not so much with companies, right? Um, but we got a start down here in Florida.

I'm from Maryland originally. Um, right after school, and got to know a lot of folks that I work with now still, including yourself. Um, and then, you know, life happened and [00:02:00] circumstances changed, so we moved back up north, and we moved to Pennsylvania, and we were there for 10 years. Um, so I got to know different people and lose some of those connections down here that, you know, I had and was starting to develop.

And then, you know, 2019 came around, and we decided through other life circumstances we were ready to make another change. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I guess we'll get into it, but I shot you a text message or something just probably out of the complete blue, like, in early 2019 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm 

Eddie Giese, PE: like, "Hey, man, you got time for a call?"

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes, I do. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. Yeah, my- 

Gordon Greene, PE: When can you start? 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, that was cool. I mean, I had been following around, you know, like what you guys had been doing from when you got started and, you know, obviously I'd worked with you and Hiren before, and then seeing the structures group grow, and I had worked with Johnny and Joe- And then, you know, Tommy obviously, right?

Like he [00:03:00] taught me CADD, so- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm ... 

Eddie Giese, PE: I mean, that's the guy right there. Um, so just, uh, just all those people, and that's what it's always been about for me is the people you work with. I mean, you know, engineering is, is one thing, and it, it can be difficult at times, but the hardest thing, but also the most rewarding thing, is the people.

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 

Yeah. So, uh, if we go way back, that, I guess that 20 something- 

Eddie Giese, PE: That's pretty way back ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: years ago. Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm. Um, 

Gordon Greene, PE: uh, I had come back to the Bartow office, uh, after, um... Yeah, I guess that's right. Um, I was getting some managerial experience as a, as a young- Yeah ... whatever. And, um, so we were gonna hire, hire an EI in the Bartow office at PBS&J.

And, um, I got all these resumes, and it's the first time I've ever done any of that. And I get to Eddie Giese. I probably said your name wrong the first time we talked. I don't know. Um, and- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Most people do. 

Gordon Greene, PE: We had a really good conversation, [00:04:00] and you ended up not taking the job, but you kind of did 'cause I guess they were also recruiting you out of the Tampa office now that I look back.

Like-

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. No, I think so ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: how do we, how do we cross those lines now? 

Eddie Giese, PE: The details are a little fuzzy- ... 'cause I was on spring break. 

Yeah. So, I, yeah, there were a couple places. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I think I followed up with you 'cause I remember that call. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, and you were like, you were so nice as always. Um, but you were like, "No, I can't, uh, come there 'cause I'm gonna go work in Tampa."

Yeah. So I remember thinking like, "Oh, well, okay, that's great." 

Eddie Giese, PE: Of course. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and then we ended up hiring, uh, Isa Marie Lopez. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Oh, yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Anybody here know who she ended up marrying?

Eddie Giese, PE: I do. 

I do, but I have the answers to the test. Anybody... 

Gordon Greene, PE: I know you know. Yeah. Take Manny Monreal. Manny. Oh, yeah, small world, yeah.

That's it. Uh, so yeah, I, I hired Isa said to you, um, not that she was second choice. Um, so anyway, small world. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And that was a long time ago, and of course we had to work together 'cause I did, uh, you know, a good bit of work over there in the Tampa office. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And, you know, you [00:05:00] were, I mean, you were great from the get.

You know, it was obviously when, when some folks start, you can just tell like, "Oh, okay, like they, they really get it." Um, not to mention like super easy to work with and all that. And I guess about the time Hiren and I were doing our thing, I can't remember the dates either, you left a little bit before or a little bit after.

When did, when did you move up again 

to- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Uh, we moved up end of 2008. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh, okay. Yeah. So it was quite a bit before. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: But I think I had- But I was still- ... mostly made my transition back to 

Bartow by then, so. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, and I was still with PBS&J until 2011. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh, were you? That's right. Okay. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Like right before you guys.

Gordon Greene, PE: Okay, so it was about the same. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, it was around the same time. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. And then you're right, so we're, we're growing and we're always looking. This was like the, the part of PGA where we were just, we were always hiring as fast as we could basically. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, we were at that phase of our growth. And, um, and yeah, I can't remember if we just heard maybe you were thinking of moving back or you initiated that.

Eddie Giese, PE: Um- I did, yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And I, I, yeah, there was like- Uh, it was, it was go from the- Yeah ... [00:06:00] from the start. Yeah, 'cause I remember all that. And you, and you've done a good job of keeping in touch, um, with everyone. And so, um, yeah, the, the circumstances or whatever aside, like, um- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: I was super excited for the opportunity.

Um, and we had a pretty quick conversation, I think. And y- you- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: you were more like wanting to extend, like, are you, like, are, are you sure? I'm like- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yes ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: "Yeah, man," like- 

Eddie Giese, PE: That's just me ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: are you sure? Like, you're getting an offer letter like tomorrow. You better be sure. 

Eddie Giese, PE: I'm like- ... should I meet some other, you know, people?

I don't, I know Mark Dunn, but you know. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Nope. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: It's mine. It's mine. The, the executive decision, send the offer letter. 

Eddie Giese, PE: I appreciate that. I mean, that took so much stress out of it. I mean, we had enough stress with the move and everything, you know. We had just finalized adoptions, and that was part of the reason we were trying to make, you know, clean slate- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm

Eddie Giese, PE: and start over, kind of give everybody a fresh start. And I think, I mean, it's just been s- super for the best. Um, not per- not just personally, but also professionally. I mean, you know, th- there's always [00:07:00] been... I've always had... So when we first moved up, um, I was reluctant for some reasons, mainly, you know, professionally, just because I'm like, okay, well, I've already started to make inroads with people and make these connections and start forming relationships, but I was still young.

I didn't even have my PE yet, you know? And I knew that that was gonna take time, um, and that I basically would have to more or less start over, right? So now I just, didn't lose two and a half years, three years, but it was, it felt like that in a way, right? And then even kind of through my time still there, um, as I was starting to rebuild relationships in Pennsylvania, I'm, I'm still thinking in the back of, you know, I still have friends out here.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Like Tommy and I would text and stuff like that- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm ... 

Eddie Giese, PE: and stay in touch, and we've I think we played like Mario Kart Wii like- ... on like Wednesday nights for a while there, even after I had moved. [00:08:00] But you know, I was, it was that, uh, when you move geographies, it's tough, right? 'Cause you're like, "I gotta learn not just a whole different set of standards or things like that, but I've also gotta learn a different set of people."

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And yes, engineering for the most part is the same, at least what we do- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah ... 

Eddie Giese, PE: as you go around the country. Yeah. But it's the pe- it's the people. Again, it k- it just goes back to that. So having that unease, and that's, I think that was part of what was coming through a little bit, you know? I, maybe it's a little humility or whatever, but it was that, do I really know what I'm doing?

Mm-hmm. Like, do- 

Gordon Greene, PE: The imp- the imposter syndrome- ... 

Eddie Giese, PE: do I really know these people? Yeah. ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: sets in, yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, and I still have that. I mean, I don't think I'll ever outgrow that, but that's just part of me. Um, but I think, you know, just your, uh, your, like- Uh, willingness, I guess, or encouragement, like right off the bat like that, just that instilled a lot of confidence in me.

Like, okay, yeah, I mean, I see what the, you know, Gordon's [00:09:00] doing and everything and, and the whole team there, and like already has some trust in me. So that in, in a way it set me at ease, but in a way it's also like, well, now I have extra pressure, like, to prove it, right? He's kind of vouching for me, so. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I was not worried about that.

Eddie Giese, PE: Well I appreciate that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, we had something special in that back room of, of PBS&J. 

Eddie Giese, PE: We did. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So, you know, anybody that was in the mix there that was available, like we're bringing them in if we can, and so you were, you were a part of that. It's- Even as a young man, like you could just tell. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: You know, you could just tell.

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. I mean, I... And I think a lot of that's held true, right? Like, those people are the same people that we work with to this day. Yeah And- 

Gordon Greene, PE: And, and we weren't able to pull all of them in, but we sure got a whole bunch of them, and the ones that we weren't are doing, you know, amazing stuff somewhere else.

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, exactly. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: You do. You kind of... It gets formed in the trenches a little bit, you know, those long, long weeks and months- Yeah ... and difficult things, but that's where you, you see a person's true character, I think, and that's [00:10:00] always just stuck with me is like, I want to enjoy the people that I'm spending all this time with, and it's a lot of time.

Gordon Greene, PE: Exactly. 

Eddie Giese, PE: It's just, it's what our career is, so. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep. Yep. Yep. 

All right. So yeah, you talk about, you know, you learn how to do work for FDOT, and then you move up north. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And, um, now you learn how to do work up there. Now you gotta come back. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: 'Cause you weren't up there for like a year or two. You were up there for- 

Eddie Giese, PE: A decade.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, a good, a good while. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yes. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, plenty of time for things to get a little rusty. So talk a little bit- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Absolutely ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: about that experience. Uh, y- Yeah ... on both ends if you want. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. That was, um, I was, I was scared about it, but not, if that makes sense. Like, I was worried about all the things I had lost and didn't know, but maybe more so, like, the people, right?

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Like, so at my level at that time, right, 2019, I would've been what? Uh, I guess 13 years in. Like, you know, I should be [00:11:00] winning work and managing projects, and people know who I am and that kind of thing, you know? And I'm like, "Okay, I gotta come in and just, like, make a name for myself." Right. You know?

Um, but also I had some level of confidence in like what I could do and the people I already knew, and I knew that you all would not let me, you know, drown without a, a life raft kind of thing. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Eddie Giese, PE: You know? I wasn't gonna just be left out on an island. Uh, to stick with the ocean analogies. I don't know why we're going there, but we are.

Um, yeah. So I, I mean, I think, you know, that was always something that was just really, like, kind of in my mind and there was that pressure, even if it was just self-imposed more than coming from anybody else. Right. And, you know, I'm trying to feed a family and have a house and all these kind of things. Um, so but I think, um- It, it kind of...

I, I had always done, and this is where, like, my career kinda took a little bit of a turn, I think. Um, I had always [00:12:00] been pretty, like, good at the technology stuff, and I really liked it. I learned the engineering. I liked it. I think I'm okay at it. I lear- I did the project management thing, still do to a degree.

Think I'm okay at it. But, like, are those the things I love? Probably not. Like- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah ...

Eddie Giese, PE: I realized that the technology stuff was the stuff I loved. So I knew moving, moving back down here, again, I feel like I'm making up lost time. It's like how do I, how do I carve out a niche for myself or help close that gap amongst my peers, right?

Like, I'm looking at people that are my same age or a year or two older, and I'm like, "I feel like I'm way behind- Mm ... because I don't have these connections and relationships- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh, yeah ... 

Eddie Giese, PE: and stuff like that. And that's where me kinda like leaning into the technology and all that really kinda- Mm. I saw that as an opportunity, and it's like a thing I really actually do like and enjoy, so kind [00:13:00] of it worked out.

Gordon Greene, PE: And, and through it, built lots of good relationships. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. Yeah. 

Unintended. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Maybe, but yes, absolutely. 

Gordon Greene, PE: For sure. Um, yeah, talk, talk a little bit more about that, um, uh, stepping into some of these roles and, and, and, uh, sort of the key context that you've built, you know, in this new role. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's one area that I think, like I said, I was kinda nervous about, but everyone was so great about just getting me plugged in right away.

It's like, "You got your PE. Let's make you an EOR on this project." That way, you're getting face time with- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... with clients. You're getting face time with other consultants, you know, getting to know more of our own staff, right? 'Cause I just moved, and so Trevor Hawkins was really good about that. He's like, "Let me...

You're EOR on this 3R project." I'm like, "Awesome. Let's do it," right? Like, let's go. Um, just didn't waste any [00:14:00] time. And w- And that hadn't always been my experience in my career. It was more like, "Well, when you get there, you can..." You know? Um, so I really appreciated that, and then kind of bringing me alongside on, you know, deputy project manager type roles where I'm basically running the project in- internally, right?

Making sure we're hitting all of our milestones- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... communicating what we need to, so like working with Hiren in District 2- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... working with you at Turnpike, you know, things like that. So, you know, that was great, helped build those relationships, um, and get me kind of ingrained a little bit more.

And then through all the technology stuff and, like, just my love of sharing information that I have, like, I don't know, um- You know, I've been able to build a lot of relationships out of that too- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh, yeah 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... um, just across the whole state and even out of the state now. I mean, we're starting to get more and more, um, in- invited to, like, [00:15:00] conferences and presenting at, you know, different user groups around the country and things like that.

So that's been really, really cool. Good way for us to continue to get our name out as PGA- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... and just show, like, you know, we might not be as big as some of these other firms, but we can innovate just as well as any of them. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And we can be nimble, which a lot of larger firms can't. Like, at our size- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm

Eddie Giese, PE: we can really be flexible and just be like, "We're gonna go do this thing," and then just go do it, not have to go through those- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Exactly 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... 50 layers of- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Exactly 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... red tape or paper. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And I think, um, we'll, we'll shake up the order here a little bit, uh, talk about IHEEP. Um, I think that was a, a big part of, um, getting the word out, uh, you know, on PGA, I guess, but, uh, you know, eventually on you.

Uh, and not only your, your technical abilities, but then also your, um, which I think is, uh, yes, you're, you're gifted there, [00:16:00] there's no doubt, but, like, your ability to communicate those things, um, is ac- like, extra special, uh, and extraordinary in my opinion. Um, it's not just my opinion. Obviously you're in- invited to do all these things because- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Thank you

Gordon Greene, PE: you know, people are impressed. Um, and I think IHEEP had a lot to do with that, which I didn't even know was a thing until we were invited- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Right 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... when we did the Polk Parkway- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... you know, pilot project. And, and Trevor and I went up to Asheville and, um, we did that presentation, and, uh, I was like, "Wow, this is, this is kind of a big deal."

Um, and there are people from all over the country- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... uh, and, and different DOTs, and wow, they're struggling with a lot of the same things that we're struggling with. Um, and some of them, wow, they're even a little bit ahead of FDOT. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I didn't think that was possible, you know? Um, how dare they. Uh, but, uh, it's such a great environment because, um, everybody's so, uh, ready to share information and, um- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah

Gordon Greene, PE: you know, rising tide lifts all boats, [00:17:00] all that stuff- 

Eddie Giese, PE: There you go 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... you know? Um, and so we came away from that and like, okay, I guess we need to be a part of this every year, because, um, being on that cutting edge of technology, especially when it comes to engineering and design production, um, is a, is a big, um- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah

Gordon Greene, PE: part of us. And so, um, you were, you were here, yeah, you were definitely here by then. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and so it's like, okay, well, that's, Eddie's gonna be going to IHEEP. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and I don't know how many... I know COVID screwed one of those, I guess maybe the next one up, um- 

Eddie Giese, PE: COVID and then Hurricane 

Gordon Greene, PE: Ian- Yeah, 

Ian was the hurricane

Eddie Giese, PE: it's like it was just one thing 

after another- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, yeah ... and just couldn't make it happen Yeah, they only got in Florida- 

Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Couldn't, couldn't go ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: 'cause the CO- 'cause they're all over the country. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, they 

move around. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Um, so yeah, talk a little 

about IHEEP and, and what we've done there and what- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, I-

the IHEEP ... uh, so y'all got to present, and I, I remember seeing all that and thinking, "That's so cool. Um, I wanna do that." And so eventually, the time finally came, and I was able to do that this past year up in South Carolina, um, [00:18:00] and share... Yeah, I was sharing more about what we... Like, our lessons learned and- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm

Eddie Giese, PE: best practices we've developed. I mean, I think, you know, if I wanna see the industry continue to move forward, I think that's good for everybody. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And so I wanna share what I've learned and know, and I know that, you know, it's the whole... It's like karma or whatever you wanna call. It's gonna come back around to you.

Like, somebody else is gonna share something that they learned with you. And so just kinda resting in that is always good, and I think that's been my mindset for a very long time. Um, but it was such a cool experience because, I mean, I think there were, like, 46 or 47 of the DOTs were there. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And then even some international folks as well.

Um, so a lot of representation. Um, and I'll be hon- I mean, most of it was bigger firms. Like, I, I even asked during my presentation, I just did, like, a show of hands, how many people are from agencies, and it was a good number. I don't know, 60, 65% of the crowd there. [00:19:00] How many are, you know, firms that are 300-plus people?

What I would consider, you know, pretty large. And then, you know, it was another big show of hands. And then how many under that? And there were three of us. Me, Tommy, and one other person. I don't know his name. I'm sorry if you're watching this. I don't remember your name. But I thought that was really cool because it showed a couple things.

One is that just at PGA, our willingness to, like, really lean into innovation and just push the needle on things, whether that's an innovative concept with a design or using technology a certain way or the way we lean into our culture. Whatever that is, we're never, like, afraid to give that a try. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And I think that demonstrated that, and then that was just, uh...

That just really, like, hit on that point for me. But also, just that, like, things like technology can be an equalizer. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Like, just because I'm in a room with people that are at 2,500-person firms l- and we're, you know, a [00:20:00] 10th of that size or whatever, like, we, we're doing the same thing. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And that's pretty cool.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And I feel like I get a lot of pride in that, I think. You know, you try to, try to stay humble, but, you know, you get proud about- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh, heck yeah 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... stuff like that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, it, it can be a recruiting tool 'cause we can tell people- Yeah ... like, "You can come work for us, and you're really, you're not gonna miss anything."

Eddie Giese, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Might be better, actually. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Might get to do more. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've been able to do that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes, for sure. Um- Well, I was gonna touch on their, uh, core values and excellence, 'cause you, you talked about, um, you know, w- wanting to be, you know, really good at, at what we're doing. And I think it's a great example of, um, okay, we've all gotta use, uh, MicroStation, ORD, whatever.

It's we have to do it, so we better get pretty good at it. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Okay. 

Um, everybody's pretty good at it. Uh, we don't wanna just be pretty good at it. Our, the core value is excellence. [00:21:00] So we can't be totally excellent at everything all the time, especially when we're starting, but that is always what we're working towards.

And having you join, like, moved the needle. Okay, we can get better at this. Of course, we already had Tommy, um, and then when you, uh, formed this group, which we'll get into- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: um, and focused that talent- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... went, okay, now, now we're catching attention because now we're really moving into a state of excellence that really can be unrivaled.

Not that there aren't other, um, you know, individuals and groups and other companies that are also very excellent at this. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: There definitely are. Um, but we're, we're among them. Yeah. We're certainly among them. Uh, and I know you're s- you're seen as that, um, through some of what you've done through ACEC and other things.

And, um, and so that's, uh, definitely a source of pride for us and, like, a good, uh, uh, example of when we're talking about a core value of excellence [00:22:00] and how, um, we want to stand apart as, as actually chasing that core value down all the way to the end. There's work to do, right? There's always work to do.

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. Can 

you ever hit it? 

Gordon Greene, PE: N- no, but like-

Eddie Giese, PE: Right? 

Gordon Greene, PE: But that's the goal. Yeah ... you, you, you go after it hard, you... It'll be noticeable by others that like, wow, they are... They're not pretty good at that. They are really good at that. Actually, you know what? If you got a question on that, you should call Eddie. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Go ask them.

Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Um, and so I, I think we're, we're, we're pretty much there. Um, so now it's like, okay, we gotta stay there. So it's a lot of work. 

Eddie Giese, PE: No, I think we just- 

Gordon Greene, PE: You, you don't get there and sit. You, you- Yeah ... you get there and you, you keep working. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, I think my outlook on it is maybe a little different with that.

I think once you achieve excellence, then you need to make excellence something else. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And then go, maybe not a completely different thing, but the next level of whatever- Sure ... that thing is. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, 

excellence isn't like a peak that you reach- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Right 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... and then you go back down. Like- Yeah, I don't think ... you, it's, it's work, and it stays work.

Yeah. [00:23:00] But y'all, y'all done such a fantastic job with that. Um, but yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about that, uh, you know, uh, professional del- development and the things, you know, once you... Well, maybe talk about the group and, um, the origin of that- Mm-hmm ... 'cause I think that was really sort of the, the, the catalyst and genesis of some of these other things that came after that in terms of- Uh, you know, being a seed writer and, and all the credentials that you all have now- Yeah

with Bentley, so yeah, talk some about that. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, so I mean, I g- it goes back to kind of my origin story, right, my villain story now. Um, and l- and always liking technology and realizing that, like, that was the thing I was good at, and that I really wanted to do more of it, and then seeing the, that there was a place for that.

And, um, just through some of the, the folks that I'm friends with in the industry that I have a lot of respect for at, at other firms, you know, I, I was [00:24:00] seeing what, what they were doing, and these are much larger firms, and I'm like, "You know, there's no reason I can't do the same thing if I have the right people around me," right?

Mm-hmm. Like, I'm not gonna be able to do that by myself. I need people like Tommy, and Charles, and Matt, and folks like that that have a similar kind of mindset. Like, just because we're doing it this way doesn't mean we have to do it this way. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Exactly. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Right? Um, and just always looking for that, that extra little edge, I guess you could say.

Like, how can we m- just make this thing that much better? I don't know if you rem- do you remember BASF, like, um, those commercials? This is going back a ways, but they were like, their whole thing was like, you know, they'd show, like, a guy on a surfboard, and then cut to, like, an airplane or something. But it was like, "We don't make the things you buy, we make the things you buy better."

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: You remember that? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: So that's been, like, a little bit of a- It wasn't my idea, but- ... a little mantra a little bit. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Challenge, find a clip of that. 

Eddie Giese, PE: There you go. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. At BASF, we [00:25:00] don't make a lot of the products you buy. We make a lot of the products you buy better. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Um, so I think I was, I was at a point where I was like, "You know what?

I think I wanna, I think I wanna, like, try this thing." Yeah. And I knew that, like, if it wasn't gonna work, I could always just go back to doing what I was doing, and I'd be happy. I'd be fine. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. 

Eddie Giese, PE: So I think I had, like, you know, messaged you out of the blue. Again, I'm really good at just- ... blindsiding you. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I like it.

Eddie Giese, PE: Hopefully I'm like- 

Gordon Greene, PE: It's, you're, you're two for two, or maybe better than that, but yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Hopefully it's 

never like, "Oh no, what's he gonna talk to me about?" But ... 'Cause I always get that pit in my stomach when somebody just cold messages me. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I just worry 

somebody's gonna quit when they say, "Can we talk?" So yeah.

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. I gotta be like- ... "It's a good 

thing, 

I promise, okay?" "Oh, phew, okay. Yeah, I need to hear that." And yeah, we went to lunch and I kinda pitched this idea to you, and I, I think I was having a hard time really, like, explaining it and what my vision for it was, but I knew that [00:26:00] we could do it and would, and it would work.

I just f- I just felt that in my core. And, uh, you know, you had some great questions for me, some stuff that I hadn't thought about, and I've never, like, led a group before. I mean, I've had ... You know, I've supervised people, but that's ... You know, this is different. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Um, especially something that's kind of- In a way, uncharted territory.

Like, everybody's doing, if they are doing this, they're doing it differently. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Like, everybody's, you can kind of set your own tune. But, like, a roadway group is a roadway group, and a drainage group is a dr- I mean, there's some nuance there, obviously. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. 

Eddie Giese, PE: But, you know, there's kind of no standard for this, I guess in a way.

Um, so he, like, hearing some of your questions and thoughts about it were, that really unlocked some other things for me, and I'm like, "Okay, I gotta really, like, think this through a little bit more." But, you know, I felt like I had your confidence, and that really, again, helped. You know, [00:27:00] just that's the push I needed, I think.

Um, and we talked about who might be in the group and things like that, and that has perfectly come to fruition- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm

Eddie Giese, PE: ... which is awesome. One, one of our first goals was hire Matt again. We wanna get Matt back. We're like, "Check. We did it, guys." No, uh, it's just been great. But, um, yeah, I think, um, you know, if you, if you think about, like, the gap it fills, if there really is a gap there, I think there is, but I like to tell, because, like, what the heck is design development?

And it's, we just, like, kind of made that up, right? I just like to say we sit in the space between IT and our design disciplines. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Just if I gotta give you a one-sentence description. That's pretty good. We love technology and stuff, but we love design. So, like, we're kind of wearing both hats- Mm ... in a way, you know?

Um- 

Gordon Greene, PE: And that's a special skill set. [00:28:00] You know, there's lots of engineers, and they're, they're math-brained and all those things, but not necessarily IT brain. That's, that's a different brain. Maybe so. And y'all got, y'all got both brains. 

Yeah. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Maybe so. But I, you know, I think, um, part of the impetus for it, too, was, you know, I remember working in those trenches like we were talking about, and those long hours, and I just al- I always go back to if I can do something that should take me 60 hours and I can do it in 50, like, I get home sooner.

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And the same for everybody that I'm working with. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah.

Eddie Giese, PE: And that's just like our mission says, you know, families is the first thing on the list there. And so that kind of helps keep us motivated, I think, to just, like I said, we're always trying to chip away at things and make them a little better.

Sometimes somebody has a [00:29:00] fantastic idea, and it ends up being a huge time-saver across the board. It's like an immediate thing. 

Gordon Greene, PE: But you gotta have time to think about those things. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And spend the time- Exactly ... to, like, develop whatever that thing is- Choose its own ... whether that's like a spreadsheet or a tool that you code or whatever that thing is.

Yes. But, you know, ultimately, I actually think it's a lot of the little ones that get you there. Mm. And those are so much harder to, like, quantify and, like, kind of believe in. But I think that it's all these little incremental, okay, this saved me 30 seconds, this saved me 5, 10 minutes. But you start- if it's a thing you're doing all the time- Mm

and everybody's doing it- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... you start multiplying that out, it becomes a real number, and- Yep ... you know, people freeing up to do other things and really spend their time, like, designing or- Yeah ... whatever task that they're working on, you know, kind of gives... lets them spend more time doing [00:30:00] that, and then ultimately, hopefully, get home earlier.

Gordon Greene, PE: Like, it keeps them on their train of thought a lot, a lot of times too. You don't have to stop one train of thought to go to do this other, click through this other process. When y'all build them a tool, they can- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: just sort of click the thing and keep moving. Which, I mean, that's hard to quantify, but that's a real thing.

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. And I, you know, I... It's easy to... You could try, you could try to quantify it, and if someone asked me to, why, I would, but I don't know if I'd get a good answer- Yeah ... that I felt good about. But I think that's where the trust comes in. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Right. And just knowing, like, somebody's got my back, you know? And I, that's al- I've always felt that way here.

I've always felt like somebody has my back. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, and I, I can remember that conference room meeting, and, um, I do remember it sort of, kind of being out of the blue, like, Eddie's got something to talk to us about. Uh, okay, cool. Um, and [00:31:00] yeah, you laid all that, all that stuff out, and I, I guess I had some... I'm glad they were good questions.

Um, but e- even though you were answering them, I'm trying to think back, my recollection is still I didn't have my head all the way wrapped around what you wanted to do. Um, but I could tell you did. Um, and I think, uh, uh, maybe a good thing about us is even though I had some questions, um, they weren't really concerns, just questions just- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Oh, yeah

Gordon Greene, PE: to help, help understand. But there was no need for you to wait on me to understand it fully. Like, I, I understood enough that y- you knew what you... you knew it was gonna work. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I could tell. Um, and that was enough for me. 

Eddie Giese, PE: I sure hope so. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Like, like, he'll, he'll, he, he'll get it, he'll get it done. You'll figure it out- Yeah

it'll be great. Um, tell me later about how you got it all done. Um, we don't, we don't always operate that [00:32:00] way. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, but I think, you know, with, with what you were wanting to do and the confidence I could see that you had and then the trust that we had in you to... You're not gonna, you're not gonna waste time, you're not gonna do anything that's going to be inefficient for us, um, that, that I was not worried about for sure.

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So it's like, okay, man, like- Go for it. 

Yeah. Let's do it.

Eddie Giese, PE: I appreciate that. I mean, I think, too, you know, we've ... And e- even when we talked, we ... I'm a big believer that to really understand this stuff, you still need to, like, have your hand in it in some way, shape, or form. So our guys, we're involved in projects, including myself.

Like, the ... I don't really see that ever leaving. We all still like to do that, um, and I think that's maybe what's makes us a little different than maybe some other folks who are doing something similar. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Um, just 'cause there's a lot of value in that. And again, it goes back to the trenches thing, right?

Like, if I'm there with you and I see the problem you're having, well, now I'm just that much more invested to [00:33:00] help you get through it and get you back to doing what you need 

to do- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Exactly 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... and, and not let that hold you up. But yeah, that, all that just, you know, became a catalyst, like you said, for, for getting our continuing education provider license through the Florida Board.

I mean, that was a little bit of a process, um, demonstrating, like, our ability to teach and the things we would teach. But now we're able to offer continuing education credits to people in Florida, and even outside the state, um, depending on the rules. But, uh, that's pretty cool. We like that. Mm-hmm. And so we're gonna be doing some more trainings coming up, you know, later this year.

Uh, we have plans to do that. So, um, help people out, get their CE license, and again, just kinda cement us as the experts that we are, right? Yeah. We're trying to 

do things

Gordon Greene, PE: I think that was one of the things you, you had in there in your original pitch was like- I think so ... "You know, we could do training." And I'm like, "People are gonna pay us to go train them?"

And- Yes. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yes. Yes, they will. They will. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:34:00] 

Eddie Giese, PE: If you know what you're talking about, yes. I think we do. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Eddie Giese, PE: So yeah, I'd be happy to do that. Um, and we're like, you know, FDOT, um, MOT providers, so we teach those classes, too, um, which has been a good benefit for our staff, but also some of our clients who needed- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah

Eddie Giese, PE: to get the, the certification, things like that. And it goes, I mean, it just goes back to, you know, not gatekeeping knowledge. Like, if I know something and I haven't told you, it's not on purpose. It's just, like, the time didn't come up, you know, where I felt like it was, I should share that with you kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. So, um, we kinda ke- we keep that as a guiding principle of our group. And- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... you know, I think that's been, been really good. And, and guys like Tommy, and Charlie, and, and Matt, I mean, that's just who they are. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Eddie Giese, PE: And so that's why I just naturally like those are the people I want on my team.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. You know? It's a 

teacher's heart thing. Yeah. Like, that was always Tom- Like you talked about Tommy taught you CADD. Yeah. And he's [00:35:00] taught me plenty over the years. And Matt's, uh, you know, the wizard, and- Yeah ... um, all that stuff. And, um, uh, it, it is a unique thing that we have, and I knew one of the things that, um, that was gonna make it work was- Uh, which was probably the thing maybe you were most concerned about selling us on was we're gonna pull these guys out of production a little bit.

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. And, 

um- Mm-hmm

Gordon Greene, PE: ... because they're gonna need time to build some of these tools, and these aren't like, you know, well, hey, those guys weren't all that efficient anyway, so sure. Like- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Right 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... these are the workhorse, like- ... like the absolute workhorses. So, um, but the, the value provided by the group like we've been talking about is, it's worth it.

Um, but that was only gonna work if, like, we held to that, but it's also kind of a give and take, right? Like- 

Eddie Giese, PE: It 

is. 

That's a difficult balance ... 

Gordon Greene, PE: like I know like right now- Yeah ... I think Charlie's working a lot. Yep. Um, and, and that stuff happens. [00:36:00] Um, but we'll, you know- Exactly ... we'll, we'll work that balance and, um, we've, we've tried to, to hold up our end of the bargain.

And like you say, you want to stay on projects 'cause you can't stay sharp if you pull yourself- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Absolutely 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... totally out of projects. Yeah, I believe that. And so that was always the plan. So they've st- even you have stayed- Yeah ... very, very much in projects. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, but, you know, m- more time set aside than, than others to- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah

Gordon Greene, PE: develop these tools and- 

Eddie Giese, PE: The scale is tilted a little bit. Right. But not always. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, and that fluctuates- 

Eddie Giese, PE: It's an ebb and flow ... through the year. 

Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Um, and I think that's, that's how we've always tried to approach, um, really everyone best we can. Um, some people have, uh, or groups have specific needs and expectations, and we'll communicate those and we'll, we'll honor them on, on average, right?

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And then overall as a company, everybody has their own n- needs for work-life balance. Um, and uh, Trevor was on here- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Mm-hmm 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... and he introduces work-life sway. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yes. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, you can go back [00:37:00] to episode three. It 

Speaker 3: was 

Trevor, I think. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Sounds right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: You can find Trevor. Yeah. You know, life is, is a sway like that. And, um, we, we try to honor that with everyone here, and then sometimes like you said, there's specific things where like y- your group's not gonna be successful if we don't, if we don't communicate.

But like- Yeah ... you know, we may lose track and maybe we're, uh- Yeah ... putting too much on y'all. You know your comf- you feel comfortable and confident to say, "We're not, we're not being able to do the things that we're supposed to be doing." 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yes. 

Gordon Greene, PE: "So-" Yeah ... "we need to get some stuff off of these guys." Um, but I don't even think we've had to have that conversation too much.

Eddie Giese, PE: We haven't. 

I feel like it hasn't been the easiest thing to balance. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. 

Eddie Giese, PE: But I'm, I'm- 

Gordon Greene, PE: 'Cause these are wanted folks. Like- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And it's, and it can be the balance the other way, 'cause, you know, we can run into a situation where, well, we don't really wanna stick them on this project 'cause we know that's gonna just tip them over the, that point where, eh, we're getting kind of [00:38:00] dicey here, right- Yeah, yeah, yeah

with how much time we're spending on our projects and initiatives. But, um, you know, we've... I think we've done an okay job balancing. I just, you know, it's just talking to your people like- How are you feeling? You like, you good? Yeah. Okay. All right, cool. Then we'll just keep on. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: You gotta have that environment where people are honest.

Eddie Giese, PE: But also, I 

kind of gotta be the shield a little bit- Sure ... and deflect and, you know, don't always see that, and that's okay. It's not about that, but it's m- more to just make sure we're balancing that out correctly and they're not getting overwhelmed and so. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Well, you do a great job of that. What else we wanna cover today, man?

Eddie Giese, PE: Jeez, I don't know. I think we did it. 

Yeah, I think we hit just about everything. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Yeah. Well, like I said, you're doing a great job with our design development group. Um, I enjoy working with you on projects. You know, we're, we're kind of-

Eddie Giese, PE: Likewise

Gordon Greene, PE: ... together on a couple pursuit- Yeah ... slash [00:39:00] contracts now, um, cranking away.

Um, I'm glad you reached out, uh, those years ago, and then we made that happen and brought you back- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Me too 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... back to 

Florida. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yeah, I had some FOMO. I mean, you know, it's like I gotta ... Well, when you guys did your Gen Z thing, right, you- Y'all know what that one is, right? 

Gordon Greene, PE: The one I was really good at. 

Eddie Giese, PE: FOMO 

was the one you

Oh, you were-

Gordon Greene, PE: I was really good at-

Eddie Giese, PE: I can't remember who was having a hard time with that one. 

Gordon Greene, PE: It wasn't me.

Eddie Giese, PE: But yeah, I was, you know, seeing the growth and, you know, staying in touch with, with my friends. I mean, I- Yeah. Yeah ... always counted p- people that, you know, a handful of these people as friends. It was cool to see, and I'm like, "Yeah, man, I just really wanna be a part of that." And we were already talking about making a change and, you know, it was my wife was

She's amazing. Um, it's like, "You should reach out." Yeah. I'm like, "Okay, I will." Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And here we are, and we brought some folk, at least one other [00:40:00] person down from, uh, the Northeast. Yeah. And so- 

Eddie Giese, PE: Colleague of mine- 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, 

man 

Eddie Giese, PE: ... up in Pennsylvania, and he's doing awesome, too, and he's happy, and that's great. I'm just- I love it.

Gordon Greene, PE: So, we're recording this in February. I wonder what the temperature is in Pennsylvania. 

Eddie Giese, PE: Oh, gosh. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So if you're, if you're listening- 

Eddie Giese, PE: In the 20s probably- 

Gordon Greene, PE: ... to this podcast in Pennsylvania, quit your job right now and come work for PGA in Florida. 

Eddie Giese, PE: There you go. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Eddie says, 

Eddie says do it. 

Eddie Giese, PE: I mean, 

P and A are right in the name.

It just ... I mean, with the G's here, so I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, it's right there. But yeah, man, I just think, uh, you know, that I just remembers at PBS&J it was like, and when we were in those trenches it was still, we were all getting along with each other, and there was just that level of kindness and teamwork and, you know, just that I got your back kind of thing, and I f- I've felt that so much since I've been back here, and it has relieved so much pressure on me l- [00:41:00] you know, personally, too.

And, uh, you know, it's like the great philosopher Jewel said, "Only kindness matters," and I think that that's, uh- It really resonates, and if you're just nice to people, like genuinely nice to people, it'll work out. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I 

agree. Now, did you have that Jewel quote in your back pocket waiting for the moment to insert that, or did that pop into your brain- 

Eddie Giese, PE: A little bit

Gordon Greene, PE: spontaneously? 

Eddie Giese, PE: Yes, a little bit. I- 

Gordon Greene, PE: I'm impressed either way

Eddie Giese, PE: ... was not spontaneous. Yeah. Exactly, but- 

Gordon Greene, PE: I love that. It's our first Jewel quote of the series. 

Eddie Giese, PE: I mean, she's the, a great philosopher, right? Uh- I mean- 

Gordon Greene, PE: No one's gonna argue with that. Yeah. It's been a lot of fun, buddy. 

Eddie Giese, PE: It's been great. 

Gordon Greene, PE: All right. This is, uh, this has been a great episode.

Eddie Giese, group leader for our design development group, thanks for joining us on PGA's Breaking the ICE podcast. We're gonna wrap it up as we always do, uh, with a go PGA. We're gonna do it on three. On three. Okay. [00:42:00] Three, two, one. Go PGA. Go PGA.