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Biting All The Apples
Biting All The Apples is an unhinged bookclub-ish conversation that channels the sassy wisdom of long dead victorian feminists to analyze the puritanical influences still messing with our world today. We start off with the 1895 best seller "The Woman's Bible" by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Each week we cover their 19th century feminist analysis of a book in the bible and ponder, laugh, and cry over the similarities to the issues of today.
This is a great listen for anyone interested in the patriarchal influence in religion, politics, and social order. As well as anyone that is GenX or any generation, anyone that likes comedy, books, history, and thinkin.
Biting All The Apples
Head Coverings & Holy Mansplaining: Paul's Letters to the Romans & Corinthians
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Not even a back to school headcold could keep us away for too long. In this episode we analyze (in our own analytic fashion and with the help of witty Victorian feminists)) the Apostle Paul's letters (epistles) to the Romans and Corinthians from Elizabeth Cady Stanton's "The Woman's Bible," revealing how biblical passages about women have been weaponized to limit their rights throughout history. We expose the contradictions in Paul's writings, from praising women leaders in Romans to commanding women's silence in Corinthians, and examine how these texts still influence gender inequality today.
Here are some highlights in this episode:
• Paul's letter to the Romans names and praises many women who were integral to early Christianity
• Evidence suggests Priscilla may have founded the Church of Rome, yet women still cannot be priests
• Corinthians contains restrictive marriage instructions with unequal standards for men and women
• Paul's command for women to cover their heads stems from an old Hebrew legend about angels
• The directive for women to "keep silence in the churches" contradicts women's earlier recognized roles
• Only seven of the fourteen letters attributed to Paul were likely written by him
• Elizabeth Cady Stanton and her contributors offer biting critiques of Paul's contradictory positions
• These biblical interpretations continue to impact modern gender roles and women's rights
All that and all of the fun, thrills, and modern insight you can handle.
Credits
Recorded at Troubadour Studios in Lansing, MI
Audio Engineer Corey DeRushia
Edited by Rie Daisies at Nighttime Girlfriend Studio
Music: ‘Shifting pt. 2 (instrumental)’ by Rie Daisies
Executive Producer Kate ML Rogers
Have some feedback? Praise? General thoughts? Know how to pronounce something? Are you a religious scholar? We'd love to hear from you. Leave a message right from your phone or computer by clicking here. Recordings may be used in future episodes.
Website
Welcome to Biting All the Apples
Speaker 1Hi, I'm Sarah Kay.
Speaker 2And I'm Joanna V. Oh stop, Thanks for coming.
Speaker 1Stop, no, sit down.
Speaker 2Sit down. No, sit Stop, come on, I love you. That's amazing. Did you know? I did that. Buying all the apples.
Speaker 1It's the podcast. That surreptitious serpent warned you about.
Speaker 1Welcome to Biting All the Apples, where two gals discuss one radical book, the best-selling critical and comedic masterpiece from 1895, the Woman's Bible, by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. I'm Sarah Kay, I'm Joanna B, shoo-wee, shoo-wee, shoo-wee. We had an unexpected pause due to a temporary illness caused by traveling with children and their novel back-to-school germs. But we are back Back. We are back Back with the big B the Bible, the Woman's Bible. We are back back with the big B the Bible, the woman's Bible. And in this episode we are responding to our Victorian ladies' analysis of the Romans and the Corinthians. Love those Greeks. You're going to want to have a stress squeeze ball on the ready, or maybe a stiff drink, if that's your thing, because they get into what some old guys prescribe for marriage and head coverings. It's not cool and it's not even stuff. The bearded lord said the bearded lord. I was like there needs to be more nicknames for him, I love it.
Speaker 1Sometimes I call him Big Jay.
Speaker 2Oh, Big Jay.
Speaker 1Big.
Speaker 2Jay, you know about Big Jay right.
Speaker 1Or sometimes I call him Commie Jay. Commie Jay, yeah, nah, but like with other fallacies and misinterpretations in this 2,000-year-old book, the messages and influence still affect us to this very day, and we're glad to have you with us on this very day. Welcome, welcome, that's right. Since it's been a minute, how about we refresh everyone on our disclaimers?
Speaker 2Here we go. Biting all the apples covers analysis of religious texts. Some listeners that are religious out of the need for the illusion of certainty may find the content offensive. Biting All the Apples also discusses historic texts and feminist movements. We recognize that individuals, groups and alternative movements have been left out of mainstream history. We will note that whenever possible, we are open to additional information provided to us in the spirit of expanding knowledge.
Speaker 1Ooh, how's your knowledge spirit?
Speaker 2Well, you know, in a world where knowledge is disappearing, like in our museums, my knowledge is going great. I'm looking, but I am afraid it's disappearing. It is.
Speaker 1That's why we I got to gather it, gather it and disperse it. Yeah, let it, it is. That's why we I got to gather it, gather it and disperse it. Yeah, let it out there. That's what we're doing right now. Yeah, that's my purpose. I'm about to disperse a cough.
Speaker 2Ooh, I think something came up. Sarah Kay, put it over there to the side.
Speaker 1Ooh, I'm on a long. It feels like a long recovery, but I guess seven days is.
Speaker 2That's average Seven to ten.
Speaker 1Seven to ten for a gnarly.
Speaker 2Fourteen to lose all the mucus Really?
Speaker 1At least in my, in your mucus experience, yeah, which is extensive.
Speaker 2I have extensive knowledge. I am highly qualified. I am, yeah, I think about mucus a lot.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Like, because it really is. It's fascinating that you can produce so much. Women can make babies, but all of us can make mucus.
Speaker 1All of us can make mucus, and sometimes so much we could maybe make mucus babies. It feels like we could be doing something with mucus. Could that be like an alternative energy?
Speaker 2situation. I mean there's a lot of mucus in the world, yeah especially right now. It just gets put into tissue papers. It's got to stop. I think it could be an alternative fuel source. Has anybody looked into this?
Speaker 1I think we're starting it right now If we didn't have to like fiddle faddle around with dumb political crap.
Speaker 2We could be talking about serious solutions. Who needs fossil fuels when every human on this planet is producing?
Speaker 1the next fuel source, and if you need to let the mucus fossilize first, okay, let it go.
Speaker 2How do we do that? We'll get it to the container.
Speaker 1I love this idea. I do too.
Speaker 2I'm calling all my chemical engineering peeps that are looking for a new thing.
Speaker 1Especially whatever's going around right now. So much, so much. There's so much happening.
Speaker 2Just falls right out of. Keeps going yeah.
Speaker 1Well, I hope you don't catch it.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know, I'm trying.
Speaker 1Try not to.
Speaker 2I got the air purifiers. I got the.
Speaker 1Lysols. Doesn't RFK think germs don't exist? I mean he must. Or viruses? There's some misinformation, some I don't mean, pardon me. I'm sorry, pardon me, I meant to be be like. There's a specific um, what do they call it? The pipeline of health misinformation that leads people to this belief that viruses don't exist or germs don't exist, something like that it's probably him, because he swam in that cesspool with his, with his grandchildren, yeah, yeah and sadly, and has anybody heard from those kids? I?
Speaker 2haven't seen the kids. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1He probably put them in a mucus farm, maybe he's in on it.
Speaker 2He already knew our thoughts.
Speaker 1He already knows what's going on. Yeah, I was like you're like there's always some misinformation, always Just a skosh, all of it.
Speaker 2People are so weird. Humans are. Humans are weird. They're not all the brightest bulbs in the boxes.
Speaker 1Nope, but I'll tell you mucus. That is the future, oh man, I bet we lost a bunch of people with the mucus thing.
Speaker 2Oh sorry, no everybody. You know what? Everybody, and it's the time Everybody went back to school. Everybody, and it's the time Everybody went back to school.
Speaker 1Everybody's were confined in buildings that have terrible air quality. So I'm like relax, grab a box of Kleenex, because you are going to be crying.
Speaker 2You're going to cry when you hear about marriage laws Exactly.
Disclaimers and Mucus Tangent
Speaker 1So we've got we're getting into it Every episode. Now I'm like we're almost done.
Speaker 2I know it's kind of crazy. I love this because I don't think I've highlighted a book this much since I was an undergrad.
Speaker 1I used to never write in books.
Speaker 2I mean, I got my graduate, but by then I was like I'm not highlighting that, I think.
Speaker 1I got it when I was in grad school. I was like please, heidegger and Foucault, I'll tell you.
Speaker 2I'll tell you, Obviously.
Speaker 1I'm a graduate student. But this I need to highlight yeah, it's super good we have the first again, couple short chapters. Yeah, how do we say this? Epistle?
Speaker 2They're epistles, but basically Epistles to the Romans, oh.
Speaker 1It's a letter. I'm so glad that you're here. Epistles to the Romans.
Speaker 2This is why I don't do this by myself A letter to the Romans.
Speaker 1So it's a letter to the Romans. Who's it from? Paul, oh God.
Speaker 2Paul, oh, I guess.
Speaker 1Yeah, viewer, or sorry, listener. Warning we're anti-Paul.
Speaker 2Totally, Like totally. And I'm confused about the history of Paul because I'm looking him up, I hear different things. So I'm like even the historians don't know Right Like one time I read he was born five years after Jesus died. I'd heard 30. And then I read that he ran into Jesus two years after Jesus died. Well, that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2Can somebody line this up appropriately and accurately. Yeah, actually this brings up. Why is it so hard to find out the most important letters, right? And this dude didn't even meet Jesus until he was already dead and he came back and he just ran into him in the road. I didn't read that deeply into it, but I'm assuming when Jesus is appearing to people he's not there very long.
Speaker 1That's why they believe that he was like divine or something. I think one of our responders writes a vision. So were there?
Speaker 2mushrooms on the walk to.
Speaker 1Damascus. Yeah, did he run into some peyote? What kind?
Speaker 2of psychedelics did they have back then and did they know? Maybe he ate a bad piece of fruit? I know.
Speaker 1I know, but again. So this would be number, I don't know 20 million of a man having a vision.
Speaker 2And everybody believes it.
Speaker 1Everybody's like cool, you can like write the rest of this book.
Speaker 2Rhoda, though she sees something.
Speaker 1No one gave a shit about Rhoda. They're like you, didn't see that.
Speaker 2She's like yeah and the dude's right outside and he's right here and they're like oh, hey, yeah, I mean, come on. So Paul saw Jesus, and now he's essentially a prophet, but they call him an apostle, an apostle, an apostle.
Speaker 1Here's a quick cue. So, and I never even thought of this when I was going to catechism. So Jesus came back from the dead.
Speaker 2Then what happens?
Speaker 1I think he was just like. Did he go on like a?
Speaker 2world tour. I know Did he go back in the thing. I know one guy didn't believe it was and he stuck his hand in the wound.
Speaker 1Oh yeah.
Speaker 2I love that part Doubting Thomas.
Speaker 1Doubting Thomas. He's like let me see that wound, Let me, stick my hand in there.
Speaker 2Oh hey, jesus, it is you. Do you have a napkin? He's like no, but I got this loincloth, like I'm telling you. If I ran into you I knew you had been stabbed. I would not ask to stick my hand in did he do it with his like hand wound, yeah I remember this so, but after that so he came again.
Speaker 1He rose then where did he go?
Speaker 2Did he go visit his?
Speaker 1mother.
Speaker 2No, what did he? Do he? Just, it depends on who saw him. See, we don't have.
Speaker 1Jesus's point of view. And then if he went somewhere after and people keep on talking about how he's going to come back, I'm like, well, where is he, where'd he go?
Speaker 2Yeah, and why wouldn't he go see the woman that dressed him and put him in the tomb and like stayed with him while he was being tortured?
Speaker 1Why wouldn't he go see Pontius Pilate, or who's the dude that sent him? Was it Pontius?
Speaker 2Pilate. No, pontius Pilate just was like I didn't kill him, you did, okay, okay, he was like I'm not going to do it. You have him, but yeah he wasn't that way and maybe there's a hidden Bible book that's called the Revenge Tour of the Commie J.
Speaker 1He was not a revenge.
Speaker 2But I think he would hopefully go see the women that like were at his feet.
Epistles to the Romans
Speaker 1You'd think, yeah, he probably just went to go play like fantasy football with his dude friends. Just ran into people on the road to Damascus. I really need to know and there's got to be. Actually, I have to ask some.
Speaker 2So they give you the letters. They give you the letters that Paul wrote, but why wouldn't they give me? I want his full. I want the dissertation of when he saw Jesus. Yeah, we're going to get into that. Where's that book?
Speaker 1They're like, if you have to ask, you don't believe and you're just going to hell. What we do have in this epistle, which is a letter, thanks Joanna to the Romans. It was this weird they picked Romans 16. I'm like 16. 16.
Speaker 2Oh, X V I One through what like 13?
Speaker 1Something like that One through 15. Oh, my eyes so. But it's just like I commend unto you Phoebe, our sister, and he's just like saluting and giving props to people and I was like, is this like an Oscar speech?
Speaker 2Yeah, well, he's like hey guys, I want you to thank all these people. So he came into town, wrote this letter and basically, like this is, I'm assuming, like his speech, like he gave a speech and they wrote it down and then they were like we better preserve this, put that in with the other good books. But yeah, I thought his letter was really good because it was like hey guys, you got to like all these people because they've helped me and a lot of them were women.
Speaker 1A lot of them were women. It was like woman, woman, woman and names Priscilla, Mary, Trafina and Trifosa. Yeah, and then Rufus's mom yeah, and his own mom Right.
Speaker 2And Julia and Olympus, ne, his own mom, right, and Julia and Olympus, nearest his sister. Yeah, all these chicks, chicks and he's like. You need to assist them because they're amazing and that's. Especially.
Speaker 1Phoebe, phoebe. And so that's what Elizabeth writes in her short. She just has a two paragraph response. Elizabeth writes in her short she just has a two-paragraph response Phoebe was a deaconess and was probably employed in visiting the sick and in teaching the women in the doctrines of the church. It is just a short selection and Elizabeth writes and then we also have her responses EBD, I love her. Ebd, I love her, and it really this is about they selected this to say again. We're seeing women were an integral part of all of this.
Speaker 2You won't let us be at the head of the church and you won't let us be in the government. But here, here's your hero, paul, saying hey, look at all these ladies and they are the best, they're the best. And she says in good works, men have always found a reserved force in the women of their generation. Paul seems to have been specifically mindful of all who had received hospitably and hospitably entertained him, and then goes on to say men have always been thankful to women.
Speaker 1The last sentence For serving them. Yeah, men have always been thankful to women.
Speaker 2Yes, the last sentence For serving them, yeah. And then he says then she says then the Marys, the Phoebes and the Priscilla's are ordered to keep silence and to discuss all questions with their husbands at home, taking it for granted that all men are logical and wise. Ooh, that's the Elizabeth I know and love. Snap, snap, snap. That's the Elizabeth I know and love. Snap, snap, snap. Yes, snap it. Yeah, like thanks for the props, but can we like have some backup?
Speaker 2so that I can have like my space at the table. Women want their space.
Speaker 1EBD's response is even more of a takedown.
Speaker 2Yeah, she's like a real academic, I feel.
Speaker 1Yes, you know even the way she writes. She really is Her first sentence I loved. Already Martin Luther had good cause to declare there is something in the office of a bishop which is dreadfully demoralizing. Even good men change their natures at consecration. Satan enters into them, as he entered into Judas, as soon as they've taken the sop yeah, and there was a lot so funny.
Speaker 2I looked up martin luther because he's the guy that started lutheranism yes yeah, even back then, all the corruption, it was crazy corrupt. And um, it was at the time of um, when they weren't picking a pope and everything. And he was like you all are corrupt, like I'm getting out. And even back then he was saying and Martin Luther was born in 1483, died in 1546. And he was like listen, catholics, you've gone bad, you've gone corrupt. And he pulled out and did some reforming. And then there's Lutheranism. Lutheranism.
Speaker 1Lutheranism.
Speaker 2But he was seeing the corruption and the weaponization of the church on civil matters that aren't spiritual, so he wasn't having it.
Speaker 1He wasn't having it, but we all know what prevailed.
Speaker 2Yeah it's still around.
Speaker 1This part I like too. There is strong reason to believe that the apostle Priscilla, in cooperation with her husband, the apostle Aquila, performed the important task of founding the Church of Rome, For Paul, writing to the Christians, admits that he himself has not yet visited that city. There's no proof whatever that Peter ever went to Rome at all, but, on the contrary, much proof that he wished to confine Christianity to Jewish converts.
Speaker 2Yeah, so they split off, even from Paul, and they were like well, everybody should. I mean it's so funny because they so Paul came and stayed with those two and they taught him tent making.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2And then they were like, yeah, I get it. I love this Jesus guy too. You know, I love it. I want everybody to hear about his wonderful. He's a wonderful human, there's no doubt, right, he's the best of the best. Um, great, sure, he's not without flaw, but got some great lessons. And then, um, but paul was like only only jews that convert. And they were like, no, anybody, anybody oh yeah, come to come to um catholicism. So yeah, they think that Priscilla started the Roman Catholic Church.
Speaker 1And I know which is nuts and women still can't be priests, I know. They're like that was too crazy. I think I did look into this, oh you did Because. I get so involved in this book that I'm like this was 130 years ago. I'm sure some people have updated.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1And there's some people that say that is not entirely true. But I read their reasoning oh, what was it? I was like it was thin. Oh, they're just like. That's not true. She probably did help with it, and I'm like the church, is that what she helped with?
Speaker 2That didn't exist in rome until she was there, right, so spreading the good word.
Speaker 1It would be good again if we have any of our biblical scholar people listening I love you guys because you know there's people that really know that stuff. I'd love to know the updated.
Speaker 2Yeah, because it's funny I was looking for some information and they'll say they don't use names though, like and, and obviously it's Wikipedia or whatever. But even in the little Bibles they'll say the most alerted historians of the Bible would say that, but there's no names. And I'm like how do they?
Speaker 1I know who picks Is this like the.
Speaker 2Oscars of biblical history.
Speaker 1And when I do research and find stuff, even on some of the religious sites or church sites, I'm like how are people not insulted by some of this stuff? Because it's so simplified that they don't even get into any of these details. That's why I'm like we need the scholars.
Speaker 1But it says here and recognizes a church of Rome as established in Priscilla's own house See Paul's letter to the Romans, chapter 16. It is highly probable that that was the tiny acorn from which has grown the present great oak, the Roman Catholic Church. I mean it makes sense of modern men to comprehend. The position of women in the primitive church is strikingly shown in Chalmers' commentary on the fact that Paul used exactly the same title in addressing Priscilla that he uses in Greeting Urbane Chalmers. Oh, I don't have my note on him.
Speaker 2He created the gap theory, that's okay. He well, he didn't create it. He discovered the gap of time in Genesis, between Genesisesis one, genesis two. So the genesis where they were just like there was land, water, blah, blah, blah. Men, not men and women, just like human right, um. And then the one that was like adam and eve and the rib right and stuff right, there's a huge gap and that's Chalmers doing.
Speaker 2And he was Scottish. He was born in 1780, died in 1847. So his gap theory was probably near the end of his life, middle end, but yeah, so like 50 years before the book was out. Yeah, very influential. So, the gap theory was probably pretty fresh. The gap, yeah, the gap.
Speaker 1I wonder if that's what the store is named after.
Speaker 2I'm sure.
Speaker 1I'm sure We'll just say it is we're like and that's how the Blue. Jean Company came to be and the Gap's going to be like ah, I had another quote underlined with like lightning bolts near it. Oh, even though you probably did, too.
Speaker 2But you know what? I do not have lightning bolts, but I do have colors, okay good.
Women's Roles in Early Christianity
Speaker 1It is manifestly due to the modern prejudice which renders the Paul-worshiping male Protestants incapable of comprehending that, our great apostle that's in quotes, by the way our great apostle. Ebd does not like Paul. Quotes, by the way, our great apostle EBD does not like Paul, that's why we're in the.
Speaker 1You can tell she's like oh, such a great apostle. Paul was not great, Was not a great apostle at all in those days, but a simple, self-sent tentmaker with a vigorous spirit who gladly shared the apostolic dignity with all the good women he could rally to his assistance.
Speaker 2Yeah, Chalmers brought up again because yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm Chalmers brought up again because he conjectures that if Priscilla really did help Paul, it must have been as a teacher of women and children, even when the fact stares him in the face that she was a recognized teacher of the man whom Paul specially and emphatically pronounces his own, equal. And she's like okay, chalmers, nice job on the gap, but you're not going to give women props. You're seeing the gap hey.
Speaker 1Chalmers, look at that.
Speaker 2RIP, by the way, because he was already dead.
Speaker 1Yeah, by the way, chalmers. By the way, ebd always comes with receipts in parentheses. She's like compare here here and she's like check out. Acts, check out Corinthians and she gives those.
Speaker 2That's what I mean. She's like I got mine. She's like I know this shit, come on.
Speaker 1Do you know this shit? That's what she's saying, yeah, and she does know it.
Speaker 2I love it. There are a ton of women and Paul and I think he's not that great is saying it, so they're like you love Paul. You're saying Paul created this. Listen to all those women. Why can't we Come on Seriously? Wake up, I know Wake up, wake up, which would almost make me like, but it all makes sense in this next one.
Speaker 1I know I'm like which would almost, that would almost make me like Paul. Until we get to this. Yeah, yeah. Epistles to the Corinthians.
Speaker 2You know what I should have looked up, how far apart in years were these letters? Like okay, you went and talked to the Romans and then all of a sudden you go to the Corinthians and you're like a total, where's your props to the women now? Now you're like it's all about marriage and women have like no power. Maybe he had a bad breakup? Oh yeah, maybe.
Speaker 1Mm-hmm. I would like to know the difference. I need to know this. I need to know this.
Speaker 2Yeah, because then all of a sudden he's like okay, you got husbands and wives and you should never leave. Each other ever leaves because she might leave, she has to never get married and you need to just you have to live as a spinster. And then the men you really shouldn't leave your wife either.
Speaker 1Let me. This is the part that so we're talking about. So this is Corinthians 7. Yeah, 2 through 16, something like that, don't worry about it, you're not going to really read the Bible, just kidding. Two through 16, something like that, don't worry about it, you're not going to really read the bible, just two through 16. But the best is. But if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband and let not the husband put away his wife. And I'm like I have some questions yeah, what's put, what is put away in In a coffin.
Speaker 1What are we talking about here?
Speaker 2I know. And why the different language? Because it says above it. It says Unto the married, I command let not the wife depart from her husband and then, yeah, put away his wife. What the yeah?
Speaker 1And unto the married I command. Yet not I, but the Lord oh yeah, the Lord said it the Let, not I, but the Lord. Oh yeah, the Lord said it, the Lord said it. And I'm like when? Because nobody else said he said this crap.
Speaker 2Well, he, you know, he met him.
Speaker 1Trust me, he met him, but the Lord let not the wife depart from her husband. And the very first, the first line, I think it's Corinthians 7, too Let every man have his own wife and let every woman have her own husband, every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence, and likewise also the wife and the husband. Which sounds nice, that's nice. This sounds nice. Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2And then they're like you can never like if a woman leaves you can't ever get married. The men don't have that because basically they're like men, just don't leave her. And then if your spouse does not believe in the Lord, don't leave them because you're the redemption. But he switches because he said the Lord said you know the wife shouldn't depart. And then it says but to the rest speak I, not the Lord. So this is just Paul, he's like. This is my own idea here. If any brother hath a wife that believeth not and she be pleased to dwell with him, don't put her away because you'll save. You want to have any money. You don't want her out on the own, telling people not to believe, don't put her away.
Speaker 2Don't put her away.
Speaker 1Even though we don't know what that means. This is all very confusing. I don't know how modern people are like. Well, the Bible says I'm like you don't fucking know you read it and interpret.
Speaker 2Tell me, put away.
Speaker 1Yeah, you put somebody away. Give me a break, Elizabeth says. The people appear to have been specially anxious to know what the Christian idea was in regard to the question of marriage. The Pythagoreans taught that marriage was unfavorable to high intellectual development. Oh yeah, I read about them a little bit, maybe I'm. Pythagorean.
Speaker 2I was like Pythagoreans.
Speaker 1You know what they believed in.
Speaker 2What? Yes, math, math, everything was math.
Speaker 1Everything is math.
Speaker 2Yeah, and they believed in reincarnation. Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm, whatever happened to them, they triangled out.
Speaker 1It's hard. I would have met them. Oh my God, you're like the octagon right out of here, I think. So Okay, well, should I even?
Speaker 2Let's just recap. Well, let's just tell them what happened. I know we're going to let the cat out the bag.
Corinthians on Marriage
Speaker 1We are going to let the cat out the bag. We are going to let the cat out the bag. We just had a lovely conversation. We had the greatest tangent that I think, opened a portal to understanding the universe, the meaning of life, jane Goodall.
Speaker 2Oh my God, it was so good.
Speaker 1Yeah, and it's gone because we had a little recording issue. But here we are, look at us. But here we are. But I think we were tangenting about the Pythag Pythagorean.
Speaker 2The Pythagoreans and their love of math. And not getting married Right, because it hinders the expansion of knowledge.
Speaker 1And then the part that didn't get recorded is I put a call out to the galaxy that I'm gonna bring pythagorealism back. Yeah, it was great, so fractals there were fractals, so you just missed a whole tangent we were basically scientists, but yeah we were, but it's good. So now we have this and we're just back here to talk about religion. Was that what I was?
Speaker 2going to say no, no, we're here to talk about Paul and his fallacies, his fallacies.
Speaker 1But the marriage question was a big whoop-dee-doo.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And this is the important part, let me read this quote from Elizabeth Cady Stanton, her last sentence oh yes, that is important. There are no restrictions in the scriptures on divorced persons marrying again, though many improvised by human laws are spoken of, as in the Bible. Yeah, and we hear that all the time, and that's what the family values the family values, crap where people are like well, that's just, you know, it's not biblical or Christian.
Speaker 2I'm like none of that crap is written in there. None of it More importantly Big J.
Speaker 1It says stay in bad marriages. Yeah, it does say stay in bad marriages.
Speaker 2To protect other people from getting into them.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly, and Big J doesn't mention anything about that crap.
Speaker 2No.
Speaker 1Because they're like you should just be a monk. Yeah, you don't.
Speaker 2You got to give it all up to the Lord.
Speaker 1If you get married it's a whole hot mess. You start liking the other person and doing stuff for them. Exactly, and where's the Lord? In the dust? Exactly, and that's pretty much what our other favorite contributors is talking about. Anon Anonymous, in her response, talks about this. It's like the idea that it's better to love the Lord than to love your wife or husband is infinitely absurd. Nobody ever did love the Lord. Nobody can, until he becomes acquainted with him. St Paul also tells us that man is in the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. And for the purpose of sustaining this position he says For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman, but the woman for the man. That reminds me of like pick a pepper, pick a pepper.
Speaker 2How many peppers did you pick? Pick a pepper.
Speaker 1Of course we can all see that man could have gotten along well enough without women, like duh. And yet this is called, quote unquote inspired. And this Apostle Paul is supposed to have known more than all the people who now are upon the earth. Come on, no wonder Paul, at last, was constrained to say we are fools, for Christ's sake.
Speaker 1We're just playing the fool. I know I like my note when it says inspired. I was like ha, Because it's like, yeah, it's used as so even Paul has to be like. You know, the man doesn't need a woman. It's like, yeah, OK.
Speaker 2OK.
Speaker 1Totally Same, Reverso Same same. Like it's not a big deal, let's do it.
Speaker 2Yeah, then what's your problem with divorce? Right, and why can't I have my land? I don't get it. It doesn't say anything about that. Yeah, and I also thought it was interesting because he's writing these letters Jesus is already dead, yet all of these things that he's talking about are from the Old Testament and Genesis.
Speaker 1Yeah, like this next thing. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
Speaker 2Well, no, she even said it there. Like man is not of the woman, but woman of the man. That's the rib story. That's a bunch of hoo-ha. It's a whole bunch of hoo-ha. It's a bunch of hoo-ha. And it's been proven and yet it's still holding up in the court of law in 1895. I know 2025.
Speaker 1I know 2025, going back there. But don't worry, because we've got a lot more sense in this next passage. That makes no sense. Lots of head covering. Yeah, this is a head covering passage. It's in Corinthians 11, 3 through 15. And this is gobbledygook. I can't even say what it is. I was trying. This is gobbledygook. I can't even say what it is.
Speaker 2It is gobbledygook.
Speaker 1I was trying to say gobbledygook, gobbledygook it really is and it just talks about. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.
Speaker 2Okay, my head is a man, chill the fuck out.
Speaker 1Paul Like what. And also why we mention this Reading that every man praying or prophesying having his head covered dishonor his head. Every woman that prayeth or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonor her head.
Speaker 2So men are uncovered, women are covered, right, why? And then we go and then he talks about. It is literally gobbledygook.
Speaker 1But it goes back to the idea that angels can get at women's hair, which is again Old Testament, old Testament stuff. So for this cause, ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels? But wait. So she has power, but you gotta cover it. But wait so, she has power, but you got to cover it. What are you trying to tell us? Oh, cover your power. I'm into you, paul. I see what's going on. I'm into your shit. Doth not even nature itself reach you that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him, but if a woman have long hair, it is glory to her, for her hair is given her for a covering, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, really bizarre.
Speaker 1And that's when we talked about. You know, I can think of one gentleman that I stared at for a good what 10, 13 years as a kid who had really long hair on a crucifix yeah, he did.
Speaker 2He did. Mr Jesus had long flowy hair.
Speaker 1Yep, he looked like a sexy hippie, yeah, he should have covered hair.
Speaker 2Yep, he looked like a sexy hippie. Yeah, he should have covered it because he kind of looked like a woman I know. Yeah, you got to cut that hair Should have gave him a veil. It's just so, elizabeth, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, where she says, though these directions appear to be very frivolous even for those times, they are much more so for our stage of civilization.
Speaker 2Yeah, so for our stage of civilization. Yeah, like it was frivolous then and more ridiculous now.
Speaker 1And they were still wearing.
Speaker 2they couldn't go to church, You'd get excommunicated.
Speaker 1But it does seem like all general, like culture. I'm thinking of America specifically. Okay, but this is probably the world over. There are people that just believe in, like you know, they're fundamentalists. Like the foundational text, just like the constitutionalists. Like this is how it's written and thus it will forever be, and that allows for no changes in language resources, traditions, like it's just, it's so silly, yeah, because Especially a book that's 2000 years old.
Speaker 1Yeah, so much has silly. Yeah, because so much, especially a book that's 2,000 years old. Yeah, so much has changed. Yeah, some stuff has changed.
Speaker 2The one thing that hasn't changed is the corruption of human men. Yeah, yeah, Some women, but I feel like they're just following like.
Speaker 1Oh, please, I wish they're just looking at the coattails. I mean, they're evil. Yeah, never forget Ginny Thomas, but you know, but she's married to you, know, whatever?
Speaker 2She's getting it done. I guess she's getting it done.
Speaker 1Anyways, that's neither here nor there.
Speaker 2And the canon law even uses these Paul-type things to show the superiority, the authority and the headship of man and the humility and subservience of women.
Head Coverings and Angels
Speaker 1After that it says the aristocracy in social life requires the same badge of respect of all female servants. In Europe they uniformly wear caps, and in many families in America, though, under protest after learning its significance. Yeah, like maids always had caps on. Yeah, come protest after learning its significance. Yeah. Yeah, like maids always had caps on. Yeah, come on and creeps. Yeah, and I have this part underlined. Maybe I don't know if this is in one of your color highlighters- oh, I'm sure it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2Go for it. It is certainly high time that educated women in a republic should rebel against a custom based on the supposition of their heaven-ordained subjection. Jesus is always represented as having long, curling hair, and so is the Trinity. Imagine a painting of all these gods with clipped hair flowing robes and beautiful hair and clipped hair. Flowing robes and beautiful hair add greatly to the beauty and dignity of these pictures. And she's like so why pull from me? Like you, love these photos?
Speaker 1You love these photos. I got to cover mine.
Speaker 2Yeah, but you want to look at his.
Speaker 1Oh, what's going on there?
Speaker 2Mm-hmm, yeah, e-c-hmm, yeah, e-c-s. She was just ahead of her time.
Speaker 1And this is L-S who is our gal, louisa Southworth, and she was, like the women's voting activist in Cleveland, ohio. I love Cleveland, I love Cleveland. The injunctions of St Paul have had such a decided influence in fixing the legal status of women that it is worth our while to consider their source. In dealing with this question, we must never forget that the majority of the writings of the New Testament were not really written or published by those whose names they hear. Ancient writers considered it quite permissible for a man to put out letters under the name of another and thus bring his own ideas before the world under the protection of an honored sponsor.
Speaker 2And that is highly respected. Now, basically, there are 14 letters assigned to Paul, but the scholarly consensus that's what I mean like who decides who? The scholarly consensus is, but they hold that of the 14 letters, only seven were written by Paul. Oh really, corinthians was one of them. So we are right in thinking.
Speaker 1Paul. So we are right for not liking Paul.
Speaker 2Wah, wah. Paul, corinthians, Romans, philippians, philemon, galatians and Thessalonians.
Speaker 1Really yeah.
Speaker 2The others, most likely written by a disciple using his name to carry the authority.
Speaker 1Okay, yeah, okay, and she continues. It is not usually claimed that St Paul was the originator of the great religious movement called Christianity, but there's strong belief that he was divinely inspired, probably where you're like. He saw him, he saw Jesus. His inward persuasions, and especially his visions, appeared as a gift or endowment which had the force of inspiration. There we go, that magical, just experience that a man had on his own. Everybody believes it.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Therefore, his mandates concerning women have a strong hold upon the popular mind, and when opponents to the equality of the sexes are put to bay, they glibly quote his injunctions glibly. These women throughout. We hadn't seen this in a while. But the women say they're like this is the type of shit they're throwing back at us when we're trying to, you know, argue for equality and they're like well, Paul said and she's like he didn't even say it, it was some like rando. Yeah, Also, he didn't even know Big Jay.
Speaker 2Big Jay wasn't even allowed. Oh I mean he ran into him, saw his ghost, but it's kind of iffy.
Speaker 1Also. Are we trusting ghosts now? Also, are we trusting ghosts now? Come on, yeah, use your noodle, you know Come on.
Speaker 2LS congratulates herself. We congratulate ourselves that we may shift some of these biblical arguments that have had such a sinister effect from their firm foundations and you know they have. He who claims to give a message must satisfy us that he himself has received such a message. The origin of the command that women should cover their heads is found in an old Jewish or Hebrew legend which appears in literature for the first time in Genesis. There we are told that the sons of God, that is, the angels, took to wives and daughters of men and begat the giants and the heroes who were instrumental in bringing about the flood. So she's like Paul.
Speaker 2they already did this in the Old Testament yeah, we covered this, just like you had us cover our heads and this is like so basic and so right in your face, scholars and politicians, so the whole covering of the head, all this crap. You're so in love with Paul, think he created Christianity and he's just restating what was in the Old Testament.
Speaker 1I know, I know People conservatives love that crap. It's weird they just tell us the same stuff over and over again.
Speaker 2Give it to me, yeah, give it to me from someone else.
Speaker 1If the command to keep silence in the churches has no higher origin than to keep covered in public, should so much weight be given it, or should it be so often quoted as having divine sanction?
Speaker 2No.
Speaker 1Yeah, you're like. Let me answer that for you, louisa. No, ma'am, no, so we got our last. This is only two verses.
Speaker 2I love it.
Women Commanded to Silence
Speaker 1Corinthians 14. My note to this verse is barf yeah, because it's like shut up, ladies, it is, why are you speaking? It actually says let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Speaker 2So this is my take. Okay, because I read ECS wraps it up, but, like so, paul is traveling around. He's trying to say I saw Jesus, listen to me. There's some women that are logical thinkers and they're in the church and they're like guys. Guys, I know Paul, come on yeah.
Speaker 1They're like they're listening to Paul the tent guy.
Speaker 2Paul, like he didn't even put up the pole. I mean it was falling and it got wet, yeah, but yeah, because what the heck, what the heck.
Speaker 1And this, the other verses, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. Okay, I won't go to church. Yeah, get bent, paul, I don't like kick me out, but yeah.
Speaker 2so basically it says, the church at Cornuth was peculiarly given to diversion and disputation, and women were apt to join in by golly and ask troublesome questions. That's what we're here for. Oh dang, those women were asking Troublesome questions you was asking some troubles. Men, shut your women up, yep. Let your woman keep the silence. That's literally how it is to this very day.
Speaker 1They're literally like. You cannot question us because everything I believe about myself will crumble. Yeah, my masculinity, which especially American masculinity, completely relies on women being like, of them not being women. Yeah so it's like you guys, it's so weak.
Speaker 2There's other ways to live. Yeah, it's a sad, sad situation, I know.
Speaker 1Which is why, when I think about you know, I often comment about the comments we get for like feminist posts or see others and so many men are like well, if you didn't have men, this and this and that, I'm like where did you get the idea that that's what feminism means? Like they do no work or research or thinking about it whatsoever, they just think that if women have power, they're going to die or implode they literally think that.
Speaker 1I think from their soul. It's so threatening to them. I'm like there's nothing about feminism. That's like that means men should be erased. It's more like can you guys stop fucking with us?
Speaker 2Murdering us.
Speaker 1Taking away our rights, like would that be cool, I love it.
Speaker 2Yeah, murdering us, yeah, taking away our rights, like would that be cool? Like I love it, like maybe you know, keeping my body alive, to keep a womb alive while I'm dead, that's a little creepy.
Speaker 1That's creepy. We're not even included in medical research and like data stuff, I mean you're like come on Completely, but they can't even so the response to that always is like well, it says in the Bible that you can't talk.
Speaker 2Paul said you're not supposed to talk, yeah, so you can't have equal rights.
Speaker 1I mean so sorry.
Speaker 2I love this and talk to your husband, but also don't get married Also, because give it to the Lord, yeah.
Speaker 1I mean how it's who? No wonder, a lot of people that are super, you know, like literalists or fundamentalists, like that's why they're so miserable.
Speaker 2Well, there's a lot, I hope that their brain hurts when they, when they're like trying to make it all connect.
Speaker 1I think they just let the priest do that for them.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Just they just tell me like my mouth, yeah, just do this. I actually just saw a jordan, jordan klepper thing where he was like, oh, so you just like to listen to him. And the kid was, it was a kid on a college campus and he was like, yeah, I, uh, you know, I, he just, this guy put stuff in the um into words that I because I don't really understand the stuff and Jordan Klepper's like so you're just repeating what he said. And he's like, well, yeah, because he says it so much, and then, and then I can memorize it, and then I can say it and I sound good. And he's like, but you don't know what you're saying. He's like, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Wow.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Wow, and I mean it wasn't a young kid, he was like early 20s, so like that's why a lot of the A little depressing, a lot of.
Speaker 1I think that's why Joe Rogan and stuff is so popular, because he'll have some people on and they will have you. It's almost like pseudo-intellectual discussions and it makes people feel like they're really like, yeah, learning stuff. I just saw a um video essay on how americans like love to think that billionaires know a lot about physics. Oh what, but you know what I'm talking about, like you see. You see, like elon and bezos and zuckerberg, and they're just like quantum fields and blah, blah, and none of those fuckers know anything about that. Elon didn't even have an undergraduate in physics. Yeah, but just people that have and that is a very highly skilled intellectual pursuit. Like people that are physicists, have doctorate degrees.
Speaker 2Yeah, and all Elon does is go hey, I like what you're doing. Can I take it and not give you any credit?
Speaker 1Well, even worse than that. Well, this is why I'm like this does go along with your point. Worse than that, they'll talk like they know about it because they know, like, some of the pieces of the language. And so then you have people that are just like, yeah, oh, he's so smart, so smart, he's so smart.
Speaker 2He builds rockets that blow up land in the Gulf of America I know it is actually appropriate that they changed it to Gulf of America and all that shit just keeps falling in it. It's great, it's great.
Speaker 1I think that this tangent is because it is funny that they're like women need to be quiet so that whenever we talk, we sound like we're really super smart, yeah, and they don't ask questions.
Speaker 2That we can't answer, because that makes me feel really bad. Right, right.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2Like they're like wait. Paul said he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. Was anybody there? And they're like shh, yeah, shh, you have to're like shh, yeah, Shh.
Speaker 1You have to like cover your head and your mouth, Put your head down.
Speaker 2Yeah, put your head down and have a baby. Shoot me out a baby.
Speaker 1Elizabeth says the apostle took it for granted that all men were wise enough to give women the necessary information on all subjects, as if like just because like you married a dude is like he's also needs, like just knows everything. He's so smart, it's so smart. I love the last things. Um, actually, this whole paragraph is good. The whole thing is good.
Speaker 2We don't read the rest of it um. Others again advise wives never to discuss naughty points with their husbands love phrase, for if they should chance to differ from each other, that fact might give rise to much domestic infelicity, which is isn't that nice. I love it. People are not going to get along if you question that they might not know what they're talking about. Right, right, and it'll be much easier if just the women don't talk. Yeah, like, how did the women get chosen? I know.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, go ahead. No, go, go go. There is such a wide difference of opinion on this point among wise men that perhaps it would be as safe to leave women to be guided by their own unassisted common sense.
Speaker 1She's so sassy, thank you.
Speaker 2She is. What does Donald Trump put at the end of?
Speaker 1it. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Speaker 2Thank you for your attention to this matter ECS Boom and thank you.
Speaker 1Oh my gosh, I'm going to start tweeting now as ECS and be like thank you for your attention to this matter and thank you for your attention to this matter, ecs. So there you know what I did. I loved reading these because this was finally more of a like bitey thing. Yeah, Because the last couple things we read I was like, well, that's not so.
Speaker 2And this is very relevant and it's really affecting them and us.
Speaker 1Woo, we did it, we did it, we did it.
Speaker 2We did it and we even did it twice.
Challenging Biblical Patriarchy
Speaker 1We did it, we did it, we did it, we did it and we even did it twice. We did it and we did it twice. And I want to know did that? You know, did anybody have a stress ball or get mad? Even though I'm, like, I imagine our lovely listeners are like, we're not mad because we already know that people think this stuff.
Speaker 2It's like more of a validation. Yeah, yes, but it is.
Speaker 1I knew Paul was a douche, but it's great to know, like the source. It's incredible that we still have cultural norms and laws that are from this, like bullshit.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's crazy, it's nuts, and I don't think Jesus would like it. I don't think he'd like it one bit, not at all.
Speaker 1It doesn't matter, paul didn't see him Also. He's one dude, one guy, one guy. What about the bajillions of people that have lived since?
Speaker 2Yeah, we don't like it Amazing lovely people.
Speaker 1We don't like it, so I can't wait to see so in our next episode the epistles to the Ephesians and Philippians.
Speaker 2Philippians, is that?
Speaker 1what it is the.
Speaker 2Philippians-offs. They're not the Filipinos.
Speaker 1I can't wait to see what those say. I can't wait, you know. And then we're also going to cover Timothy and we're just wondering what will they say Like will they tell us what to do with our shoes, our lawns? Who Wondering what will they say Like will they tell us what to do with our shoes, our lawns? Who knows what the men have in store?
Speaker 2Did Paul write these too, I?
Speaker 1don't know. Paul did all the letters. He did, but not really.
Speaker 2Right, but I'm just saying like in common Okay, okay, it's probably his people that came after him.
Speaker 1We do know our Victorian feminists will meet them with cracking wit and academic astuteness. So be sure to turn back in Turn.
Speaker 2Don't turn back in. Don't turn back in, although you could turn it in. Don't get put away. Don't get put away. Don't get put away. Tune in.
Speaker 1So let me tell you this, though the best thing about podcasts is you don't have to worry about your head covering or any rules like that. We never do that no rules. No rules.
Speaker 2We consider ourselves an anchor in the storm of oppressive, mean-spirited, surface-level faking and mass propaganda. Isn't that something that you want to support? I do. How can I? Our podcast has no ads, so we need your support. You can do this by subscribing, commenting, leaving reviews, interacting on our socials. Do it and, most of all, by helping us spread the word. Share this podcast far and wide.
Speaker 1Wide. Wide yes, so until the next episode hold your head high and your Bibles low I like that we were both. We're like we went low with that get low, get low.
Speaker 2Have a good week, we'll see you Thank you.
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