SPEAKER_00

How do you become fully confident and in control of your emotions and experience at work? It's by mastering your own psychology and that of others. On this show, we decode the science of success, exploring how to get out of your own way and advance your career to new levels without becoming someone you're not. I'm Melody Wilding, a best-selling author, human behavior professor, and award-winning executive coach. Get ready and let's put psychology to work for you. Today on the show, I'm sharing a conversation with Dr. Lois Frankel, author of the bestseller Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office. When Nice Girls was first published in 2004, it gave language for the first time to something so many women were experiencing, which is the many unconscious ways that they had been socialized to be agreeable, accommodating, self-effacing, nice. And how those behaviors, while they often get rewarded when we are younger, start to hold us back in our careers. In this conversation, she talks about what has changed for women at work in the last two decades, what has not, and how to take control of your career without contorting yourself to become someone you don't want to be. Enjoy. Dr. Frankel, thank you so much for joining me on the show. This is a pleasure and a treat to have you today. And you are actually celebrating a huge milestone, which is the fact that your book, Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office, is now celebrating its 20th anniversary.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it's amazing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

How much time went by and in the blink of an eye? I I can imagine. And also when the book first came out, it was it was a revolution on its own, and it has spun off. How many other books have come out of the nice girls series?

SPEAKER_01

There's three other nice girls books along with this. Uh, there's nice girls don't get rich, nice girls just don't get it, and nice girls don't speak up or stand out.

SPEAKER_00

Love it. Amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And thank you for having me, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

It is it is so good to have you. And like I said, such a treat because this book has been formative for me and my career and my work for so many of the clients I have too who will say this this is the it doesn't matter how deep you are into your career, you will keep coming back to this. So the first place I I want to start, though, is when you think about these last 20 years and when you look at today's workplace, which is more remote, it's so much more fast-paced, it's more ambiguous, it's higher pressure. What do you think has changed about how those nice girl behaviors show up? And what has not changed?

SPEAKER_01

Well, let me unpack that a little bit. When you talk about what's changed, um You know, I think women have come more into their own. They understand that they don't have to be that nice little girl they were taught to be in childhood and expect to achieve their adult goals. I think they understand that. So we have seen progress. And that's the good and the bad, right? Uh the fact is, is that as we've seen the progress, we've said we've seen predominantly white men start pushing back. So when you say what's changed in the workplace is that we currently have an administration that is taking away the rights of women. So now you have these women who are self-confident, and we're taking away their rights. So there's this friction that's going on right now. And as a result, I think more women uh are leaving the workforce than ever before to start their own enterprises. So that's the good news and the bad news, right?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, yeah. And I know even just the environment that we're operating in politically, but also economically, which of course trickles into our workplaces. What I find, at least, and I'm curious if you see this in your work and people you talk to, is there is still some tiptoeing for us women where I want to speak up, but I don't want to be perceived as the B word or too pushy or too we're still trying to walk these many fine lines we have to walk. Do you find that as well?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's what you know, Kathleen Kelly Reardon described as the thin pink line, right? That it is this thin pink line that women walk. And I think more so now than even 20 years ago. Because again, you know, when you see the erosion of DEI and the other platforms that were designed to um help women, I think women have gotten the message that I need to be a little bit careful. And so, you know, my message for women is you know, you may need to be a little bit careful, but it doesn't mean that you give up your agency entirely. That for women, it has always been a challenge. The challenge has always been for women to tell people to go to hell so they look forward to the trip, right? And so women need to learn how to do that in a way that is not off-putting and yet uh does enable them to keep their voices. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, let's get into that because I I think even, you know, a lot of the women who listen to this show are deep into their careers, 10, 15, 25 years into their careers, and they still feel like they are trying to find that balance. So, you know, one thing I have loved about nice girls over the years is how uh actionable it is. And I think there's over a hundred, right? How many different tips in the book?

SPEAKER_01

Uh oh, there's hundreds of tips. Uh and in this book, I I I actually don't remember. I think there's 103 mistakes. It's why we didn't use it in the subtitle, but it's an odd number, like 103 maybe.

SPEAKER_00

So and so when you think about all of those different mistakes that women make, what are some of the most common ones or the most common ways you find that successful women are unknowingly capping their own influence and performance, even once their mid-career?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You know, you mentioned a little bit earlier about remote work. And I think that's one way that women are capping their own influence and success. That when people were given the opportunity to work remotely, women saw this as, oh, this is great. I'll have more balance. I never was for a woman working remotely unnecessary if they didn't have to. And the reason is kind of obvious that for the same reason they wanted to do it, they shouldn't have done it. Because women wind up working significant amounts of overtime. I mean, it's always been that when women go home, left the office, they came home to another job. Well, now they're just doing two jobs at once. And I think that's really hard for women. So that's number one. Number two, if you're not in the workplace, if you're not at the table, you're not in the game. And so I think the people who are going in are the people who are able to manage their careers better. And so I tell women that even if you go in two days a week, go in. Something else I see women do, and I see women do this more than men, and I'm not sure why. But when there are remote calls, women will often not turn on their camera. And I I think maybe it's because we're a little bit more vain, you know, like we care about what we look like, and if we don't live perfect, we don't want people to see us. Again, if people can't see your face, you are not in the meeting. And so there's these are just a few ways I think that remotely and otherwise, that that women are kind of um uh shooting themselves in the foot. And I also think when they don't how should I put this, when they don't uh assert themselves, when people take away something from them, when they don't call people on it in in a very nice diplomatic way, they're shooting themselves in the foot. Right? Uh and an example would be just how hard a woman works, right? Women i women make miracles. I talk about this in the book. Women make miracles, and making a miracle is getting something done with less time, fewer resources, less money than should be humanly possible. Men don't make miracles. They know when enough is enough. And we need to learn more about that too. A lot of times women will say to me, but how do I do it? If I'm known as a miracle worker, how do I turn that around? And I say, it's about setting boundaries. It's about saying yes to everything and saying, yes, I'd be happy to do that. And let me tell you what's realistic with the amount of time I have or the amount of money you've given me. And so I think women need to do much more of that, uh, particularly mid-career. Early career, you know, there's that whole section on rookie mistakes that was net what wasn't in the original book. But, you know, early career women have different challenges. Mid-career women, again, especially in this environment, have different challenges.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and let's get into the the boundaries discussion. How do you advise someone straddle that line where, you know, relationships are important? It is important to manage perception that you are a team player. At the same time, you can't just indiscriminately be saying yes to everything that comes across your plate, especially, you know, when we talk about the office housework and the things that you shouldn't be doing. Right. So, how do you push back? Especially a lot of the people listening will say, I have so many different bosses and leaders I have to keep happy. I have my main boss, I have a project lead, I have a client. How, how do I juggle all of these things? Because I feel like if I push back, everyone's going to be angry at me. They will blame me for not being able to keep up enough. So, what do you recommend about striking that balance with those boundaries?

SPEAKER_01

Well, you're absolutely right that relationships are important. There's probably nothing more important to your career than building 360, building and maintaining 360-degree relationships. And so when I say, you know, saying yes to everything, I mean saying yes to everything. Now, there is a proviso there. Is that because I'll say yes to almost everything, unless it's like really, it has to be really unreasonable. And I say, yes, you know, I'm happy to do that. Now, let me tell you, with the amount of time you've given me to prepare for this, I can give you um probably half of what you really want. Now, if you want something really re robust, you're gonna need to give me at least another day. Or you're gonna need to assign somebody to help me with this. Now, what would your preference be? Getting this much or giving me more time, getting more of what you want. And I think, particularly when you're serving many masters, that's exactly what you have to do. So you've got somebody throwing one thing at you and saying, Yeah, I'm really happy to do this. Let me tell you where it fits in the queue. And if that's not acceptable to you, you may want to talk to so-and-so who ho who also has things in the queue. You may, you too, may be able to work it out.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Again, it's it's um, yes, but it's also setting the boundaries. And I think that's something that women have a hard time doing for the exact reason that you said we want everybody to like us. We know we have the disease to please. And uh, and that's why I think yes and comes in. Yes, hey, I can do this. And let me tell you. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Did that answer that question?

SPEAKER_00

It does. It does. And it I think it also shows that you are you are being conscious about the broader business. You're not just thinking about your own workload, like this is too much for me. I can't handle this. It's not where you're saying. You're saying there are these, I'm just giving you the reality of the business priorities. That's it. And you're making it more of a a partnership conversation rather than being a blocker to say, no, this can't get done, which then some of them may jump to conclusions about your readiness or your willingness. But you're saying, how would you like? Here are the constraints. How would you like to handle this, given those constraints? Which is uh a much more solution-oriented approach. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Yeah, nobody wants to hear no. That's the whole thing. Nobody wants to hear no, I can't do it. And I think I think even when your first instinct is to say, what are you kidding? You want me to do that by when? Um, I think you can use some humor because you know, when I have men in groups where I'm doing keynotes, um, I'll often say, What do you do when when your boss asks you to make a miracle? And they say one of three things. They use humor to say, Yeah, you you must be kidding, because you know I can't do it in that amount of time or whatever it is. Number two, they go back and negotiate, which, you know, is a is a strong thing to do as well. Yeah, I'm happy to do this. Here's what I'm gonna need to do it. That's a negotiation. And you know what the third thing they say is?

SPEAKER_00

No.

SPEAKER_01

I delegate it to a woman because I know she'll get it done. So not only are we making the miracles that are given to us, we're making the miracles that are given to uh men as well.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. That is that is fascinating. And it actually brings me to, I want to go back to, we were talking about some of those maybe subconscious ways that we get in our own way, even when we are successful. For the women who have been, who are seen as top performers, who are seen as high potential. Are there any special mistakes you find they fall into because they are seen as the hard worker, the good operator, the get it done person?

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, it's that overworking thing. It, you know, you know, there's always that same thing where the women who work the hardest, they are given accolades for working hard and they get so far. But miracle workers get canonized. They don't get promoted, right? Because who wants to promote you when you're getting all this stuff done, right? So that is really a trap to think, and it's that old message that we always got about women have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good. I say forget that. That is simply not true. And the harder you work, you are taking time away from managing your career, from br being strategic, from creating a vision, from building relationships, building uh selling your brand. So I think people need to understand that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's always a question I come back to again and again is what is the highest and best use of my energy? Right. And yes. Yeah. Many, many times you have to have a bit of a longer term perspective and investment in what that's in what that may be. It may not feel like the highest and best use in this moment because there's there's a longer tail to see the results. Yes. And that investment.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, women, we also forget to ask for what we want. So that, you know, you can be seen as high high performing and you can know that you're high performing. But does somebody know that you want that next level job? Have you enlisted um an advocate for you? And I'm not talking about a mentor, you know, and I'm sure you talk about the difference between advocates and and mentors, but have you enlisted an advocate for you, somebody who's going to stand up for you when you're not in the room? I think that's another mistake that high performers make. They don't enlist the people that are going to be able to help them get what they want, and they don't ask for what they want.

SPEAKER_00

Why is that? What do you think is getting in the way?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think women are taught not to ask for what they want, right? They're they're kind of taught from the time that you're young, don't make too much noise, don't be too loud, don't expect too much. People won't like you, they'll see you as needy or greedy if you do all these things. Um, and so I I think that that's a holdover for some of these messages that we get. And those messages are actually reinforced in the workplace. Because you know, I in the new book I talk about gaslighting, right? How women buy into gaslighting, how they believe when they're being gaslit. Now, for people who don't know what gaslighting is, if they've never seen the movie Gaslight, which I think I think it's from the 1940s, it could be 1950s, but it's an outstanding uh movie about a man who is trying to make his wife think that she's crazy. That's where the term the m the the gaslight, so that's where the term comes from. It's when people cause you to doubt your own reality. Okay. And so when you say, why do women do that? Why don't they ask more for what they want? It's because many times they're gaslighted into believing they're not ready for it, they don't deserve it, right? Uh you know, be as simple as, you really think you could do that job? As opposed to, yeah, you know, I think you're ready. I mean, that's what we want people to say to us. But when we hear, do you really think you're ready? That just makes us doubt everything. And we need to s we need to recognize gaslighting for what it is. It's designed to make you doubt yourself. You know, Susan Faludi talked about it in her book Backlash, right? That the more powerful women become, the more backlash they get. And so what I see happening now is is exactly that. You know, you know, you asked me at the top of this interview, what's changed? Well, we had made progress and we were gaining confidence and agency. And then all of a sudden, we were pushed back on because that's the way the system works. And and we take it as reality. We have to say, no, that's just the system uh pushing back on me. I'm still gonna be able to move forward if I follow my own path.

SPEAKER_00

Let's let's drill into gaslighting for a minute because we haven't talked too much about that on the show, actually. And I think it unfortunately it happens pretty often. Yes. What what do you do when you recognize that this person is trying to make me doubt my own reality? How do you handle that?

SPEAKER_01

One would be the indirect approach, which I don't have a problem with in this case, which is to say, um, you know, I understand what your concerns are, right? I hear what your concerns are. Let me tell you how I see it. See, I I think that's a technique that I talk about called contrasting, right? You may see it that way. And I respect that. And I'm not going to say that you're not entitled to that opinion. At the same time, I see it differently. Let me tell you why I believe I am ready. And so that's one way to do it, right? And I think that in most situations that's the right way. But if you have somebody who consistently does this to you, like it's not a one-off, it consistently happens that they make you doubt yourself, then I think you need to have a tough conversation with them. I think you need to sit down and say, you know, I'd like to talk to you about something that I've seen happen or a few times now. And when I've suggested my ability to move forward, um, what I've gotten in response is doubt on your part. And I'd like to talk about how we can shift that from doubt to if you think there's something I need to do differently, tell me so that we both can move forward. I think women need to have those tough conversations if it's ongoing. And then, of course, if you have a um passive-aggressive boss who says, I don't do that. That's a form of gaslighting too, right? I don't do that. You know, I think you're mistaken about that. That's gaslighting too. Then it's time for you to make a move.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Or at the very least, to find other allies and people who can gut check your reality so you're not in. I always say, uh, my last book is about managing up. And I always say, do not make your manager your single point of failure because they can leave. They can also only provide one myopic perspective. And if your manager has this, has these habits, has this very fixated view of you, that's going to become your reality because it's the only thing you know. So you need those other, you need the surround sound and other uh guidance coming in to counterbalance that.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, absolutely. And that's great advice. It's great advice.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, let's talk about meetings because I think some of these uh sometimes are nice girl behaviors and the likability trap that we Get into can really come out in meetings because our performance and the way we communicate is being evaluated at scale. And we are on stage performing in many ways. So, what are some of the biggest mistakes and fixes you would have, especially the more seasoned women who are listening who may be falling into some bad habits, what would you have them fix when they are in meetings presenting, trying to articulate themselves?

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Let me give you three things. First would be when you walk into a meeting, well, I've already said if it's a virtual meeting, have your have your camera on. So that that's just a given. Because if you're not if you don't have it on, you're not in the meeting. In real meeting, real-time meetings, if you walk into the room and you can see it's going to be a crowd there, and there's chairs on the side and there's chairs at the table, never take a chair on the periphery. Women will tend to do this to leave the chairs at the table for the more important people. Always sit at the table. Even if it means you have to pull a chair in and squeeze in, you're gonna do that. And while I'm talking about seating, and where do you sit? Next to the most powerful person in the room. So wherever the head of the table is, sit either on the left or the right of that person because their power will flow over to you. Okay, so that's number one. Number two, make sure that you speak early and often. Early speakers are are seen as more self-confident than later speakers. So what I tell women is to make sure you're among the first two or three people to speak in any meeting. Early speakers are seen as more self-confident than later speakers. Now, when people say, Yeah, but you know, I don't like to speak up just for the sake of speaking up. You don't have I didn't say give your opinion. I said speak up. So it could be, Melody, you say something, and I say, um, you know, I've like what Melody just said because I've had the same experience. Now, not only is my voice out there early, but now I've built an alliance with you by amplifying you. And I think that's just something to be amplifying each other more, period. And then the third thing that women need to do is not let themselves be mantorrupted. That in meetings, we know mantorrupting, that's when a man interrupts a woman. It happens to women much more than it happens to men. You know, all the studies that have done show show that men interrupt women more often than women interrupt men, um, and other women more often than they interrupt men. So when you are interrupted before you've had your whole whole thought, I want you to practice saying something like, hang on, I wasn't quite finished. Okay. Now, it may be the boss who interrupts you. And it's maybe a little bit hard to say to the boss, hold on, I wasn't quite finished. It depends on your relationship with the boss. But depending on who it is, if you don't feel like you could say, hold on, I wasn't quite finished, then let the person speak and then say, I'd like to take the floor back because I hadn't quite finished that whole thought. Do not let your thoughts go unexpressed because you've been interrupted. And uh, if I could give one more tip, because people like this tip, uh, in terms, in terms of appropriating, you know, appropriating is when a man takes your idea as his own, right? So you put an idea on the table, and all of a sudden nobody says anything, and all of a sudden it comes back around, and it's like, oh, you know, it's the best idea he can he's come up with. I think you can um bring it back to you very subtly, and you kind of have to practice this, saying this, saying something like, you know, Joe, I really appreciate you amplifying my idea. As a matter of fact, it made me realize I'd like to add something to it. And, you know, it comes right back to you. In a I mean, talk about telling people to go to hell so they look forward to the trip. That's an example.

SPEAKER_00

That is fantastic. I know the folks listening always love a good script. And there were so many of those there. It's just helpful to know in the moment, what do you reach for? What words do you reach for? How do you say these sorts of things, even if you riff off of what you have shared? At least it gives you some direction. And I love the idea. I love the statement of let me let me take the floor back for a second, right? Yes. It shows so much confidence. And you don't have to say it in a mean way, like Joe, I'm gonna take the floor back here. You just say it in a calm, level-headed, okay. I'm I'm gonna take the floor back and pick up where I left off and carry on. Carry on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. And and I think what you said is really important that women can't always that's what they say to me at least. I can't think in the moment what words I should use. I feel like I'm kind of a deer in the headlights, right? And say, it doesn't have to be right in that moment. You know, why don't you collect yourself? You know when it happens, and then you collect yourself and think about what do I want to say. And then you could say, you know, before we go much further, I want to comment on something that was just said by Joe that I had mentioned earlier, right? So it's like you can collect your thoughts and you can go back to it.

SPEAKER_00

That's great. Let's talk about another scenario that I think comes up very often, especially when we're talking about women who are leading other people, which is claiming credit. And this can be a tricky one, right? Because you you need to make sure people are aware of your impact, you, that you as an individual, that you're you're not being what was the phrase that you said, appropriating. I think a lot of the people listening will say, I recognize everything as a team effort, but I also know I have to make sure my results are out there, but I also don't want to cut other people out of the process. So again, this is one of those middle grounds. How do you strike this to speak to successes without being overly self-promotional or being undermining of yourself?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know, there's a great book that I wish I wrote. We probably both wish we wrote it. And it was by Peggy Klaus. Yes. Uh Bragg, The Art of Tooting Your Own Horn Without Blowing It. So I really recommend that book. But um, a couple of things that I suggest is number one, you know, just before, maybe about uh a month before your performance review, send your boss a summary of your key accomplishments in the last period. Yeah. With a little note that says, I know you're going to be doing performance reviews. I don't expect you to remember everything everybody does. I hope you find this helpful. Period. Okay. And just some bullet points. Now, that's not over the top. It's just say, I'm trying to help you with the performance review. That's all. I mean, it's kind of obvious what it is, but that's okay. That's not over the top. You know, something else in meetings is women need to erase, oh, it was nothing, entirely from their vocabulary because we tend to play things down, right? Somebody likes your dress, oh, this old thing, right? You know, job on that. Oh, you know, I'd done it before, so it was relatively easy for me. We need to stop those things. And we need to learn to say, thank you. I actually worked hard on it, and I appreciate your acknowledgement. So make sure when you are acknowledged, you do accept it. That's another way to do it. And then a third way is to be able to say, when you're giving a presentation in a meeting about your your accomplishments, because I I, you know, I don't even know if they still do this anymore, but it was really annoying. When I worked for Arco, you know, every week we'd have a meeting, everybody had to go around and say what they did that week. And it was like everybody was trying to embellish everything that they're doing. Um, and so I don't know if they still do that anymore, but if they do, what you're gonna say, and I have a hunch they do, what you're gonna do is say something like, you know, I'm really pleased to report three exciting things happened this week. You know, one was my team and I were able to do this. Number two, I was able to meet with Melody Wilding, who did this wonderful uh interview with me, and I was really excited about it. And number three, whatever it is, if you say it with enthusiasm and you and you are simply reporting, it does not come across as bragging. And and even if it does, so what?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that that's the way I like to think of it. Of we have an obligation to keep the people around us apprised of what we are doing and achieving, right? That is part of your job. And as you said, there's a difference between informing and embellishment. And that's a line a lot of us just over-index on if I share a win, I will be an embellisher when it's not, you know, it's not not true. So I think that's a great reframe for everybody that's listening. Um okay, Dr. Frankel, two last questions for you. Number one is with this new edition of Nice Girls, you had mentioned there were some new ideas and tips added. What is your favorite out of those?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, of the new ones? Yeah. Well, the gaslighting is definitely one. But the entire chapter that I added on self-care, unselfish self-care, I think that's one of my favorite new things. And you know, when people read the book, they'll see uh when I when I was first uh taught about self-care from a friend who wanted to write a book about it, Sherry Betts. I don't know if you know Sherry, but she wrote a book called Uh The ABCs of self-care. And when she talked to me about it initially, I said, I'm not sure people are gonna buy this book because women look at self-care as self-indulgent. And she said, but it's not because it's so critical to our long-term success. And the more she talked about it and the more I read about it, I realized, you know, she's absolutely right that I think that there was a time when we couldn't talk about self-care. Like 20 years ago, self-care could not go in this book because people would be saying, you know, women need self-care. Sure, right? You know, tell me something else. I think we've come to the place now where women understand that they are juggling so many things for so many people, and that self-care is not selfish and it's not self-indulgent. It can be self-indulgent. You know, if I go to the spa and I spend, you know, $200 on whatever I spend it on, um, that could be self-indulgent, and that's okay. But um, but setting boundaries with people, making sure I go to doctor's appointments, making sure I say what's on my mind because I don't want it to fester. Those are all examples of self-care too. And they do impact how you work, they impact your relationships, they impact your family. And so that is not self-indulgent when you're doing things that are going to enhance long-term relationships and uh especially at work or at home.

SPEAKER_00

What a great way to think about it. How that's it's a broader view of self-care. Because as you were saying, I think 15, 20 years ago, we thought, oh, get your nails done, buy yourself something nice, get a little tree, nice coffee.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

But it's these self-respecting behaviors, which I think another key here is it doesn't always feel good. It doesn't always feel good in the moment, right? To get yourself over the hump of speaking up or to set that boundary. And sometimes, you know, I like to say self-care looks different by the day. Sometimes it may be, you know what, I am gonna go take a 20-minute walk around the block because I need to clear my head, I need to take a break. Some days it's I I know the most self-caring thing I can do is power through on this and prove to myself I am capable of here. And so I I think that that question of asking yourself, like, what does self-care look like in this moment? It's not always bubble baths and rainbows and sunshine. Sometimes it is that harder self-respecting choice.

SPEAKER_01

It is. And you know, and I talk about um Nita Jane was a woman who I'd interviewed for the book. And she talks about how we come to see the chaos in our lives as normal. And when you accept it as normal, then you're not able to do anything about it. That chaos is not normal. Chaos is something that we tolerate way too much. What would it look like to not tolerate chaos? What would you say? Oh, it'd be about setting boundaries. Yeah. It'd about be about saying what I want. It's about no and it's about first knowing what I want. Yeah. Right? And what is the chaos that's that's creating the problem in my life? Is it at work? Is that you know, if at work it's about, you know, things are always given to me too late. And so it creates this kind of fire drill that's very chaotic. Well, in that case, I need to say, I need to get these things earlier so that I can do a better job on them. Otherwise, you know, uh as quickly as I'm doing them, it leaves it open to mistakes. And I don't think you want that. Same thing at home where there's chaos going on, saying, you know what, uh, here's what I need in order for this family or this relationship to um really flourish. And for me at the moment, I'm uncomfortable with whatever it is. So it's about expressing yourself and setting those boundaries. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Amazing. Dr. Frankel, where can people connect with you? What's the best place to send them to get the book and learn more about you and your work?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they can learn more about me at my website, which is drloisfrankel.com. And I ask people to connect with me on LinkedIn because I post oh articles that I read that I think are interesting or ideas that I have or encouragement or whatever it is. I use it as my own little place to kind of give a train of thought sometimes. But connect with me on LinkedIn, Dr. Lois Frankel, and you can get my books practically anywhere.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. That's right. That's right. Thank you so much. It was such an honor having you here and just really appreciate you and all of your work.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I appreciate the invitation to be with you. And you keep up the good work.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of Psychology at Work. If you enjoyed the show, I'd be so grateful if you could take just a minute to rate and review wherever you are listening. It's how we reach more professionals just like you. And if you'd like to see even more content on how to feel more self-assured, grounded, and in control of your emotions and reactions at work, follow me on LinkedIn or head to the links in the show notes.