"Holding On and Letting Go: A Life in Motion" Author Lindsay Swoboda on Retirement & Life Transitions

In this engaging conversation, Genevieve and Lindsay explore the complexities of navigating major life transitions, including a book launch and husband's retirement from military service. They discuss the emotional challenges, the importance of community support, and the balance between personal aspirations and family responsibilities. Lindsay shares her experiences of holding on and letting go, much like her newly published book, "Holding On and Letting Go", the hidden struggles of creativity, and the significance of open communication in relationships. The discussion highlights the beauty of shared experiences and the journey of reinventing life after the military, emphasizing the need for self-care and the power of storytelling.

Lindsay's Book and Author recommendations: 

Nicole Gulotta "Wild Words": https://www.nicolemgulotta.com/

Stephanie Duncan Smith Substack Slant Letter "What Publishing Can and Cannot Do For You" 

Anne Lamott "Bird by Bird" quotes 

Barbara Brown Taylor: https://barbarabrowntaylor.com/

All the links to connect with Lindsay:  

IG: @lindsay.swo  www.instagram.com/lindsay.swo/

Substack: The Eleven O'Clock Number | Lindsay Swoboda | Substack

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/lindsayswo

Email: hello@upliftinganchor.com

Transcript

Genevieve : 0:00

Hi, this is Genevieve. Thank you so much for taking a moment out of your day to listen. You're tuned into Hidden Chapters, the podcast where we uncover the stories you don't usually hear, the ones behind the highlight reels and everyday smiles. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Lindsay Swoboda, an editor and first-time author with a passion for telling true stories and inspiring fellow creatives to find their spark. Her debut memoir, Holding On and Letting Go, A Life in Motion, is a book that takes us through her journey as a military spouse, exploring how she made space for grief and goodness, while discovering purpose across a myriad of overseas duty stations. Beyond writing, Lindsay finds joy in nature, reading great books, and building strong communities. In our conversation today, we're going to talk about two huge chapters and milestones in her life. Life after the launch of her book, digging into some of those hidden chapters between her book chapters, and her about what's next on her journey. So let's turn the page and discover the hidden chapters behind Lindsay's story. All right, so hey, Lindsay, we're finally here. So excited to have you on Hidden Chapters for season two. I

Lindsay: 1:17

am so thrilled to be here. I feel like How this has like evolved with the two of us of both of us having a friend in common and then you jumped willingly onto my book launch team. It has been just such a natural progression and to almost wrap book season talking to you is a real pleasure. bit of reflective work on the theme of your book and get to be with you in that before phase, it is great that I get to come back and go, all right, so let's talk about the after phase. A whole different

Genevieve : 2:04

beast. Absolutely. So talking about your launch, it was huge. You not only did your release of your book, but your husband also retired after 21 years of service as a Marine. So that's two massive milestones you and your family went through with all the highs and lows that come with that. So how's it going?

Lindsay: 2:28

How is it going? Yeah. What was crazy is that I feel like that season, the book came out May 6th, I believe. I should know that. But that weekend prior to it, we decided to have his retirement ceremony. So his end of active service wasn't coming until the end of September. But all the big things were falling in May. And at first I thought, why are we doing your retirement ceremony in May if you don't get out until September? But his commanding officer that was here was of course going to PCS this summer. And so he was like, I really want this person to be who speaks at my ceremony. And now after having attended the ceremony, which is a whole different story on its own, like it didn't feel real to me at all, just walking in and sitting down and being like oh this is for us like how many more of these have I been to that weren't us and now it's us and there's just so many things you can prepare for and so many things you can't I think that is military life especially but also life in general and I would say that was kind of book launch season two there were so many things that I could prepare for that I tried to plug and play I'm a very strategic thinker so I knew the things that I needed to take off my plate in order to survive the season well. However, there were still just a lot of things that caught me off guard that even though we were trying to be fully present and live in the moment and celebrate all the little things that were happening, there were some disappointing moments where I just felt like I couldn't be there for my kids or for my friends in the way that I normally am just because your presence and you're pulled in so many different directions so there was a lot of just needing to be gentle with myself on hey you've never done this before you know you've never stepped into retirement season together you've never launched a book before it felt very akin to like a PCS season honestly because every time people would ask us about moving they'd be like oh you're a pro you've done this so many times and I would always say no I'm it was a different person and it different stage of life every time I experienced that move. So that is kind of what that season encompassed was this like hurry up and wait, like do all these things you need to do and still have 20 more that you need to do and wonder when you're going to sleep and remain a kind human. I mean, there's all of the self-care talk and I get it, but there are some seasons where you're just like, oh, you know, I can't always be the top priority. So this five minute thing I'm doing has to be enough to kind of support me through the day. And yeah, that is how it felt like and how we're doing now. We can get into and it's hard to discuss how it felt like because you don't want to come across as ungrateful for the experience. Right. I am still, you know, full of gratitude for what I experienced. And there are parts of the fact that I'm an author now that don't feel real either.

Genevieve : 5:47

Yeah. Well, I imagine it's like expectations. You know, you have this in your head of what the expectation, what it might look like. But you have no idea until you're actually walking through that. So what were maybe one or two things that you did expect or maybe one or two things that really surprised you the most?

Lindsay: 6:03

Yeah, I think what I didn't expect is choices that I needed to make in the moment. Like we are currently still a homeschooling family and I didn't expect to just say the school is done for now. Like we walked into the spring and I was like, one, we live in Texas it's so hot there is no reason that I need to keep going now because this is our beautiful weather I'm going to pause everything knowing we can catch up in the summer and it will be fine and then not expecting the things that my kids were learning in the background while I was stepping into this new role which is you can survive without me for great lengths of time you will be okay and then very sweet moments like my daughter sat and helped me organize all the book plates as I was signing them and she made like lots of little trips to the the post office with me she filmed like helped stage and film some of the reels I was doing yeah that's cute I was doing like musical theater Monday and she was like oh this would be a great move for this and she was like choreographing it and helping me set it up and and those were those hidden joys that I thought like I'm gonna just let them down during this time frame and it wasn't about letting them down it was about letting them see like mom has a space to dream as well and I think that's really powerful I grew up watching my dad do lots of road races he's a runner and a cyclist and as a kid I couldn't be more proud to like stand there and hand out water cups and like cheer you on as you ran past me and I felt like my kids kind of got to stand and cheer me on as I was running

Genevieve : 7:44

this race it was a family affair yeah they were part of that with you yeah sure

Lindsay: 7:48

yes that's a very good way to put it it was a death from me, like a family effort. And we always call ourselves, like we call ourselves Team SWO. And it was a real Team SWO moment. Now, like the griefs I couldn't anticipate have been numerous, like just... um, as we finished, not just book lunch, but Ryan getting out, um, that last few months, you know, he's gone on to do skill bridge and all these different things, but I missed the day he was coming home in his uniform for the last day, like last time. And I had wanted to get back in time, but the kids and I were out doing something. I just missed it. And it doesn't, that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have to mean anything unless I want it to mean something, but I am obviously still holding onto it as I'm sure Because I wish I had been there for that. Like, like now I haven't seen him wear it again. And I'm like, oh,

Genevieve : 8:44

that was it. I understand. Yeah, because I do kind of miss the uniforms. I miss having Chris get dressed in the morning and he changed uniforms over the course of the 20, the 18 years that we were together. He had three different uniform styles that went through in the army. But yeah,

Lindsay: 9:01

I understand that. Little things. It's little, the little things that are the big things. Yeah, there's been a lot of little wonders during this season that have been both exhilarating and exhausting. And then I think that's funny because the title of the book is Holding On and Letting Go. And I still think I am a person that really thinks in two lanes. You know, there's always this both and happening in our life, which is what helps me understand like the big things I go through is holding those things kind of loosely and knowing these can both coexist and it is okay. that they're both here at the same time. Yeah, no. Well, in talking about that holding on and letting go, both you and Ryan together faced the leaving military. It's a shared turning point for you both. So was there a tough moment or maybe a quiet realization from navigating that together that you haven't really been able to share or just kind of come to a realization from? Yeah, I think the biggest part of this is we have done many, of the courses and the support that's out there and all of those things have been helpful however I don't think you can pick and choose what shakes you when and I wasn't prepared for kind of him coming down off of this experience and kind of going well now what do I want to do yeah I think and I don't want to speak his story for him so as his being the someone that's like been behind his career and, you know, kind of watch things unfold. I think I felt there would be a natural next step. And I'm realizing maybe the natural next step for us is almost questioning everything. Not questioning the time in necessarily. At least I don't. I'm not questioning that. But I kind of saying, well, you know, I'm primed for all of these things and maybe I don't want to do any of them. And making a lot of space for that while you're also silently panicking about finances and having young children. And it really is. the craziest time to kind of transition from a lifestyle and a job because you are midlife. I guess some could say it's the best time to transition because you have this other chapter ahead of you. But when you can't define that chapter yet, you're definitely in a place of unknowing and I'm really working to be okay with that.

Genevieve : 11:39

That's hard. Yeah. And being able to talk to you, being on the other side of that, also being a fellow retired military spouse, doesn't get any easier after three years. You're still kind of going in this unknown, like, what do I do? You're still trying to find that footing. But that's great that you can at least recognize that and just be okay with not knowing.

Lindsay: 12:03

Yeah, I feel like we're both kind of on our own evolution right now and continuing to try to just check in and have really good, hard conversations together, which I'm not going to say we do all of those super well, but we're having them. And I think that is the point, right? That's important. Yeah. Somebody was asking me like, what's the biggest thing you've taken away in your military marriage? And I was like, oh, just trying to have the heartquaking conversations that no one wants to have together because in the end, our world has gotten a little bit smaller for the time being until we figure out what's next. And we really have each other. And that either means we're going to rely on each other or dump on each other. And I think we're just really being like everybody is treading as kindly and as carefully as we can. So, yeah.

Genevieve : 12:51

I had this discussion with a friend recently about that, too. It's like you've known this person, you've lived with this person, you've done life with this person, but you're also relearning this person. Like you said, you're both in this whole new chapter and season that there are things that both me and my husband, Chris, have talked about that I'm like, wait a minute, I never knew that about you. So it's an interesting thing of a relationship. You think you've known everything about that person, but you really are still learning about them and the person they're becoming in this new chapter that they're exploring with you.

Lindsay: 13:25

Yeah, I almost feel like he's getting permission for the first time to kind of go back through everything. Yeah. And It's been interesting to observe and watch and be there.

Genevieve : 13:36

Yeah, yeah. So thinking about your book launch or leaving the military, was there a moment that just hit you like a gut punch or a light going off that you've kept pretty quiet up until now?

Lindsay: 13:52

Let me think about this one. Yeah. I feel like one of the gut punches for me coming off of book launch season or just in coming out of the military really was Ryan's ending speech he gave at his retirement ceremony, which was he did a really wonderful job of thanking our family and friends that were there. And then he did end with me in particular and just saying, really just honoring our time together, whatever that looks like next and being excited for the adventure portion. And I think that's part of closing chapters is like there are a natural close to things when we're younger, I feel. And maybe that is not real for some, but I felt like when you graduate high school, you know, you're going to have a ceremony, you're going to have the cap and gown, you're going to do the things. Same with college, same with because I was a performer. I've been in up to a million shows where you're going to have a final night together and you know it's your last night and you're going to hang up the costume. And there are like very physical things you do to finish something. And this time, even though we had the ceremony, we had a book launch party, it felt very like there wasn't as much to hang on to. It just was happening. So I felt like I've really hung on to words, which is no surprise because I'm a writer. But at the same time, I do. I feel like I've really held on to the words, like words my husband has shared with me, the way that the book has impacted people. So maybe less of a gut punch and more of like a gentle, like encouraging stirring to like remind yourself that all of these small moments that you poured into something It does matter, which is it's sometimes hard to convince yourself of that because it is hours of my life I have spent on some of these projects. It's hours of our life we've dedicated to this military atmosphere. And yet, you know, those things do have endings. So it's how do we honor them and how do we make sure they mattered to us? And we do get to choose some of that. But when others have offered their words of kindnesses or hearing something from Ryan at that ceremony Yeah. That has been, I've like clung to that, I guess is the best way to say it. likely that people took their time like I think I understood that maybe heavier than ever too is that time is so fleeting our attention is very hard to gather together these days and so every word or every pause someone has taken to offer their own like thanks or gratitude or experience even I've had a lot of that where people are offering their own stories to me after hearing Yeah, I can understand that. So after this whole book launch momentum, you had to take a sabbatical in July.

Genevieve : 17:36

Yeah.

Lindsay: 17:38

So what was a hidden struggle or a need that pushed you to hit pause? Yeah, I was actually really afraid of taking that time off. I had, you know, my publisher is wonderful. They did email me and they're like, tell us, you know, what you're going to be doing in the next little bit. And I was like, I'm not doing anything right now. And kind of feeling like I had, they weren't pressuring me or anything. It just, it was my own feelings of like, well, should I still be doing something? And At the very beginning of this process, Ryan and I tried to be really clear. And I know I mentioned him a lot. He is my spouse, but he's also like my business champion. Yeah. My creative champion in the background. And he helps me bring clarity to things, which was, you know, what will feel like enough? I don't know if you've seen The Greatest Showman. I feel like everybody has. I love The Greatest Showman. My girls and I, of course. Well, that song, right? Her like, never enough. Exactly. I don't want to be never enough. Right. it feels this way too. And maybe it's military life that shaped this in us that like, we're really good about like getting our heads down shoulder to shoulder, like let's keep working. Like that is just a real thing that I'm drawn to as a hardworking individual. You know, I like pride myself on that, except for the fact that like creativity sometimes doesn't run in tandem with just putting my head down and continuing to work. Like I felt like by the end of june i just had no words left and for anyone like i just didn't have words to write anymore um i felt really drained and mentally and emotionally taxed so that's why i chose to get off every time we have pcs'd i have removed my social media apps and i kind of decided this summer well if the military isn't forcing me to reset my life right anymore i'm going to have to be the catalyst for that I'm going to have to choose if they're not going to give me a forced sabbatical or break away from my normal life I am going to have to force my own sabbatical on myself before I'm burnt out before I'm at a place where like there's no wisps of me remaining and so that really was what July was all about I really intentionally scheduled it and I had a hard time logging out of everything because you feel like you have this momentum but the truth is people will find someone else to click over on, they will watch different content. That doesn't mean what you contributed doesn't matter. It just means the world will keep spinning without you and you can decide to get off the wagon if you need to jump off the ride. So I jumped off the ride and that time of getting back to normal, really, I just needed to be able to hear myself again. I think in a small amount of the research I've done from reading The Anxious Generation, watching numerous things. You know, I'm not judging anybody for those social media and internet use. It's just mine was at an all time high during launch season.

Genevieve : 21:18

Yeah.

Lindsay: 21:19

And I think, you know, you knew you could do it for that time, but it wasn't going to be sustainable after. And I found myself just picking up my phone and I'd be like going to look up something or get on a map and I'd be in the Instagram. I'd be like, how did I even get there? Yeah, it sucks you in. these two things for me can't always run next to each other. I can be heavily involved for a time and then I have to pull back because I want my focus to be elsewhere. So I went up to my parents' house. They live alongside a lovely lake and forests and very quiet. And they're both very crafty people that have lots of interests. So my dad was like down in the basement playing his guitar and piddling around in his garden. And my mom and I would go for walks every morning and she loves to sew. So I actually picked out a pattern and cut out a dress and have you know 75% of a dress made that I did with her which it's like all these things like I'm processing and making things with my hands and going on walks those things just like clear all those kind of atrophy cobwebs that we're developing from spending too many too many moments in the socials it really just gave me a hard reset and it's helped me question how I want to come back now right like the launch has happened I I do not need to come back with the same ferocity that I had. There's a little bit of a trust fall happening saying like, I still want to steward this work well, but I have to release, like it is a book launch and a release for a reason. It has to kind of grow on its own a little bit here and me trust that instead of like tightly gripping it.

Genevieve : 23:20

Well, it's really interesting you describing it that way because I'm getting to see it from the other side. Whereas Chris just launched his book a couple of weeks ago. And I think I'm seeing a little bit of that unraveling. What do I do? What do I need to do next? And we had a heart to heart just the other day. And I was like, just be still. I've known him for so long that he really has a hard time being still. And there's also that military mentality, like he's got to be busy. So it is interesting to see that point of view as the non-writer, but watching him go through that, he really is still going, do I need to do something else? What do I need to do? So trying to be encouraged I think that will because I

Lindsay: 24:00

also know I've talked a lot in different conversations about like, is creativity sustainable? Yeah. And I think it's only sustainable for my end if I live. I have to live. I have to have new experiences. It's interesting. I'm like writing an essay about this right now, but I used to get really annoyed in college. I had one professor that was like, Lindsay, you're such a good student, but sometimes you have to live. Sometimes you're not a great artist because you want to check the box to get the grade. You don't want to do the hard work of like living your story out so that you can step into these characters better or represent a piece in a way that it needs for it to live beyond yourself. And I know that's kind of woo-woo, but it is true to me that I, like I wrote 20 something years of our life in this book and I will have nothing no more life to write about if I don't go live it. So yeah, I think it's a surrender almost.

Genevieve : 25:09

Yeah. But I think it's also great to hear you say you dabbled in other creativity things too. Getting away from the social media to do more hands-on stuff. I mean, writing is of its own hand-on, but yeah, I crochet, so I get you. There's some therapeutic time just to sit there and count the stitches, but there is some therapy and just kind Yeah, I think the

Lindsay: 25:33

beauty of this now is like even talking with you and our pre-discussion, and this has really helped me work through some of these things to say, like, one of the authors I really like, her name is Nicole Gulotta. She has a book called Wild Words, and she talks about this season of visibility, like you are in it and do what you want to do in it. And I think that's been huge for me is kind of looking over the course of the book launch. I got to do everything I wanted to do, truly. Yeah. I pitched podcasts and had lovely library meetups and are doing live book clubs and all of these wonderful experiences that have come from the work I did. But it's also, it's also like time for new work. Yeah. So,

Genevieve : 26:19

yeah. I get that. Yeah. So as we were talking about how much you've invested into your book, you've poured a total of about six years into this journey. So what's a hidden emotional struggle from letting that personal story go free that maybe you haven't shared or talked about yet?

Lindsay: 26:41

Ooh, this is the question, isn't it? Like this is it. So I still struggle with anxiety. It's popped up a lot more during this time of us getting out and me wanting to like grasp at control of something. Like even though I know we've got it and even though I have tools and I can recognize it within myself a lot easier when I feel like I'm feeling out of control or over spiraling. Right. Yeah. But. But I think what I thought is when you write a book and you kind of championed yourself through that time period, you're you're wanting to leave the book changed. Yeah. Like, do you remember the show The Extreme? It was an extreme homemaker and they go in and they

Genevieve : 27:30

used to love Ty Pennington.

Lindsay: 27:31

Yes. They like people's houses and they everything would look different when you came in and they pay off their mortgages and you'd be like, my gosh, they're set up for the dream. And I imagine that is true. I imagine that was a huge dream that came true. Yeah. There's that. And I had everybody read it that needed to read it. That was a piece of a story that wasn't involving me and involved more of them. But I think that was probably like out of all the hidden things I could share. It's that, you know, there's no way to tie a bow on your your life experiences. There isn't this like we just rode off into the sunset forever. It is. I'm still living. I'm still lassoing the troubles, you know, in the dust. All of that is still very real.

Genevieve : 29:22

So was there a quote or authors that you used as inspiration to kind of keep you grounded during that time when you were writing?

Lindsay: 29:30

Oh, yes. I wanted to share both of these. So the first one I had next to my desk and then let me pull it up here because I wanted to read it to you guys. Stephanie Duncan Smith has a book out. She's also an acquisitions editor. I don't know her personally. I just love her work. And she writes this substack called The Slant Letter. I'll have to check her out. I just

Genevieve : 29:52

got on Substack.

Lindsay: 29:53

Oh, welcome to the Substack. Thank you. Good to see you over there. So this quote, I read it in the same month she sent this letter out, the same month I was signing my contract for the book deal. And the quote is, it's fairly long, so I'll try to give it to you guys. But it was, name what it would take to be proud of yourself at the end of the publishing process. Be as specific as you can about that so when time goes by, you can know with confidence that you did everything you intended to do. You can't control the outcomes, but you can control your investment. It's an expectation setting practice to ask, what do I want and why? Also level with yourself about what it will cost in your time, the shape of your life, your expenses, your mental and emotional space and energy. Often I see a mismatch between what writers are willing to invest and a reality check on what it will cost them and high hopes. So really level with yourself about the distance between those two things.

Genevieve : 30:57

Wow.

Lindsay: 30:58

So good, right? So

Speaker 01: 31:00

good.

Lindsay: 31:01

I had that on the corner, like I wrote it down on a four by six card. It was blue. Yeah. I have since tucked it away, but it was sitting here to be like, you can give as many hours to this as you want, but if you're not clear about the fact that you know, what, what really matters most to me are projects that bring me purpose and feel purposeful. And then this family and the friends that, and the community that I'm pouring love into. So the book can do all these things and can be all these things, but it actually doesn't, you know, there is a choice on whether it changes those things that are the main priority for me. So that was one of the things I just really loved. And I'll leave that for you guys there to think on. I can send you the link. to the post if you want to put it in the show notes but

Genevieve : 31:50

absolutely

Lindsay: 31:51

yeah she's a beautiful writer and I just feel like her offering for writers and creatives is so strong to really like just level with yourself like I needed someone to say that to me

Genevieve : 32:02

yeah

Lindsay: 32:03

um and then also I love Anne Lamott who wrote Bird by Bird which is like one of the most famous you know writing books of all time but she also has lovely other books as well that I enjoyed and she has been quoted saying you know publishing won't fix you which is what we're kind of talking about here with the fact that I still contend with a lot of the things in the book that I didn't like in the book I didn't write it like I had resolved it um but you're I was surprised by the fact that it wasn't resolved myself yeah and um and she's right you know like someone a mentor of my just of mine described it the other day that I was like you know you get the You climb this mountain. You're published. And now what? Well, now you have to start walking down the mountain and the valley and up the next mountain, whatever you decide that

Genevieve : 33:01

to be. All that you have learned going up, you have to make sure you keep learning as you're going back down.

Lindsay: 33:06

Which was such a like harrowing realization, you know, just like, oh, you know. So it's interesting. I think I've decided like coming out of this that you, get to pick the meaning you get to decide like was that worth it or not to me it was worth it I feel like I have learned and grown so much in this process I accomplished something that I really meant a lot to me I got to do it in a time that yes was crazy because Ryan was getting out of the military but I this was the best time for me to do this I think I would have felt differently if we had gotten out and I was still trying to release it like I think that would have felt like a different energy to me so this was the timing that it was and I was as prepared for it as I could be and then you know under prepared for all the other things and that is just what it is right that is just living again I feel like I say that a lot but I'm the older I get the more I realize I don't I don't know much of anything like I'm still figuring it out

Genevieve : 34:09

right it does not matter how old we are we are still figuring everything out yeah well something that I loved and I wanted to ask you about is I know from speaking to other authors and then my own husband as an author, there were so many things I know you wanted to write about, but not everything fit for page worth or whatever it was that needed to be cut down. And so I loved that you had referenced Stephen King calling his cuts his darlings. And so you made a darling folder. So what are some untold chapters that you either left out or still feel really important that you wish you could have shared?

Lindsay: 34:47

Yeah. Yes. Thank you for asking me this question. It might be something on my sub stack I write. I have kind of a little vision for the cutting room floor. You know, I'm like sharing some things that I wish

Genevieve : 34:58

every author should have one of those. Great.

Lindsay: 35:00

Here's what's here. You know, there were things that were cut that were I will say everything that was removed from the book in the editing process had validity. I didn't have to like battle with my team about what stayed and what went. Yeah. Because I felt like their reasoning was fair. And I I loved, I worked with Terry Barnes was my developmental editor and she was just wonderful about not necessarily needing to justify why something was being removed, but like letting me mourn it. Yeah. And you have to be like, all right, baby, you know, this is how we grow up together is letting parts of you go. But the one story that I regret not telling, and I think it could have had a place in there. I just... I didn't write it. And that was when we were in Morocco. It is like my favorite group of Marines we were with. Not that I didn't like all the Marines across all the time because I liked you all. But I felt like we were on embassy duty. We were first posters there. And much of the team that we got assembled, they were first posters too. And I just felt like we were all trying to figure it out together. On embassy duty, it's like Like the only time I think across all branches where an enlisted person is a detachment commander, is a commander. So we really got to invent the Marine Corps that we thought it should be in that space. And that was really exciting. Like I asked all of them when they would arrive their favorite meal and we would come together and do family dinners. And Evelyn at that time, my daughter was only two and they all had little, you know, a lot of them had little siblings at home and they would just play. lay with her and come over to her house. And I remember one time coming out, all of these just grown men and women were holding hands in a circle and singing Ring Round Rosie with her. And I just wish I had captured that, right? Like you're living our family's journey. And I felt like I tried to describe our family and our community well, but I hope that I touched on those other military members that like I wouldn't have experienced that had I not been married to my husband that made this choice. Right. That had even during our retirement party that we had at our home after every single one of them that came in the door was like, what can I do? Put me to work. What can I unpack? Like I had forgotten. I had forgotten that we are a community or at least I experienced it that just cares about how we show up for each other and just does the work even without being asked to just lend a hand.

Genevieve : 38:04

Yeah.

Lindsay: 38:05

And so that's something that I feel like isn't necessarily missing, but is, you know, I wish I had shared that because what a dear time to be growing up together.

Genevieve : 38:18

Yeah. I think it's hard to share that military lifestyle with somebody who maybe not be as familiar with military lifestyle. Yeah. relationship that you bond well with those that are in the military so yeah it is normal to just come walking in as if they've been there forever and go what do you need help with what can I do you know there is no I think we get past the uncomfortableness and it's just everybody is there to help in some way

Lindsay: 39:16

yes offer what you can and I think like you were talking about that gut punch one of those gut punches has been we went to our last family day like the mandatory family day the Mando fun is what we call it in the Marine Corps forced family fun and you know we used to make fun of it and then being the ye elder spouse at this last one I was like but you guys are this is what makes this so special and I know like you may roll your eyes at you know the corn hole and whatever the grill and all of this but this is something that doesn't come with every job and it is pretty cool that we do this

Genevieve : 39:55

yeah no Chris Chris is going to reunion next week with some old infantry buddies. And it's so neat to watch his face as the text messages come in of who's going. And, you know, in his infantry days, I know probably Marines the same way. Everybody, you knew of them from their last name. And so when Chris was just sharing with me the other night, he was like, oh, so-and-so is coming and so-and-so is coming. It took me a minute because my brain in the infantry side, a lot of them are their last name. And then in the aviation side, a lot of them called them by their first name. So I was flipping flopping going, OK, did I meet this person? Right. But it's just I think it was just it's more of the point is the joy that I see in Chris's face when he's like, oh, he's going to be there. He's going to be there. And it's been 20 years since he's seen some of these men. So I'm really excited for him. And I and I know how guys are. They'll all get together and then forget to do the one thing that most women are like, please take the photo so you

Lindsay: 40:52

can commemorate it. Do it at the very beginning. Everybody just needs to text them and be like, did you get a

Genevieve : 40:57

So that's what I told him. I said, please don't forget the photo. You haven't seen these guys in 20 years or so. So let's please make sure you at least to memorize it.

Lindsay: 41:06

I love that because I feel like we I've even seen that. This was the first summer I saw that with my daughter that we have a family. Actually, I wrote about them in the book. They're in the Ecuador phase with us and they have family near where we live. So the past two summers we've been able to connect with them. And this was like one of Evelyn's very first friends. They were really little. So it was hard for them to remember. Oh, yeah. It wasn't that awesome.

Genevieve : 42:15

So in talking about that, you're in this new season after leaving the military. What's been the hardest part of figuring out what to do next? So something that you're finding strength in now that maybe you and Ryan are doing together now that you're out of military?

Lindsay: 42:33

Yeah, my gosh, I think. What excites me and scares me at the same time is the level of freedom we have in reinvention. That you're like, oh, we can really, let's not just, I thought we would jump into something right away and we were actually driving the other day and I was like, are you... you know, is it normal that like we don't have anything lined up yet? Like, is this normal? And he was like, well, I don't know really what you mean by normal. He was like, probably not. Yeah. However, he said, when have we ever been normal? Yeah. In a really fun way. Like we took overseas assignments kind of when other people didn't really want to do that. Moving from Korea to Hawaii, we sent everything off on a boat, kept one really annoying overhead bin of uniforms to check in with and medical documents. Don't ask me why I'm so annoyed by having to heft that around the world. But we didn't have kids yet, you know, and we had our backpacks and we did Europe together for 30 days. And that's

Genevieve : 43:37

amazing.

Lindsay: 43:37

That's an experience. We literally crossed the world like we flew into Austria and went all the way across and then landed in New York City to say hi to my best friend and went across the Brooklyn Bridge. It was like our first time back in America in three years. So that was fun for it to be like, And then flew from New York to Hawaii and started our life over again on an island. And I really had to pause and, you know, being a dancer and was like a performer for half my life to then transition to editing and writing. I mean, you're right. We have not had a normal trajectory. And I think there's strength in that. I think there is excitement for the adventure to come in that. As long as we continue to like make space for feeling the feels that we need to. to close this chapter out. And then hopefully that means we look back on it with fond reflection.

Genevieve : 44:29

Chris and I didn't have, well, he didn't have anything specifically lined up right after, but coming out of his military career, he really needed to take some time off. And I'm so grateful that we had the provision to do so. And I was ready to go back to work. So before I had even jumped in, we had a little bit of time between the next thing. I'd like to advocate that that's something I think is so important that couples should do, especially after being 20 plus years in a service. I've always use the analogy for being Army, this rucksack. We packed this rucksack for so many years and we just didn't get to have those discussions because of a mission, a deployment, or whatever it was. In the end of that career, that rucksack needed to be unpacked. And when it got unpacked, not everything that was in there was great. And it was years of resentment, years of something that just did not get discussed. We had moments where we had to relearn each other. hear that you both are having that discussion and really working on that next thing together versus trying to have two separate lanes, figuring this out.

Lindsay: 46:10

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I feel like it's very encouraging. I have heard it more and more that it was like very scary at first to think about taking the time off. And yet I feel like if we just And the next thing we're going to miss the opportunity to think about it, like to really think about what works. of the pension and just be real with ourselves. Like how many months can we make it without, you know, supplemental income? And honestly, I am Caroline Ingalls over here making multitudes of things from scratch and learning how to cook in a whole new way. And we're doing a lot of free family fun. And honestly, though, it's been there's been some freedom in this and being like, OK, if it doesn't happen right away, we will we will be all right. We cannot be extravagant by any means or do a lot of extras however it was a real practical step for us to take to work together as a team and then I feel like that S has meant a lot of other things like summer of surprises like being surprised by different moments of being home together all the time right now and I went to my parents house and he didn't come with me for that because he was doing his certificate program And when I came home, the freedom beard was in full. And I was like, you, I don't even know about this. Your face is so fuzzy. And we've also called it like the summer of surrender, which is just like, okay, maybe it's all right that we don't know everything. Oh, that's so good. I

Genevieve : 48:14

love that you said freedom beard because that's Chris's too.

Lindsay: 48:18

I've embraced it, but it makes him happy. Will I see your face again? Maybe not. And I'm also, we Both are laughing and he'll be okay with me sharing this because I have multitudes of grays as well. But I didn't realize that the Marine Corps would not only like take years, you know, from our life in some way, but also take like a, the color, the color of his facial hair swiftly swapped to a very handsome gray. salt and pepper quite quickly. Distinguished gray. Distinguished gray that I wasn't anticipating because I'd never seen it.

Genevieve : 48:58

Oh man. I love it. It's funny though. I think every man that can grow a beard, they do and they're like, I am free.

Lindsay: 49:05

Just look at me grow this thing.

Genevieve : 49:07

Yeah. It's just funny. Oh my goodness. All right. So I didn't mean to throw you off, but I think

Lindsay: 49:13

that was actually pretty good. I loved it. No, this is good.

Genevieve : 49:14

That was so good. Okay. So before we go And then before we end this, I would love to hear you read an excerpt from your book that you feel especially close to you that you'd love to share. So do you have an excerpt in mind? I

Lindsay: 49:31

do. I actually wasn't sure exactly what I'd share. And then I kind of let it fall open to where it fell, you know, and was like, oh, this is exactly where we should go today. So this one where you're finding me in the story, this is called The Long Winter. Oh, yes. which is also a little nod to one of my favorite Laura Ingalls Wilder's book, The Long Winter. But I had landed back in America after almost our 10 years overseas. I was pregnant again, but we had a complication with the pregnancy that made it very unreal if this was going to make it to fruition or not. So at the end of this chapter, Ryan was still back in Ecuador. He had sent me back early to make sure I could get the right medical care. And my best friend had flown down to see me and we're laying in my mother-in-law's guest bedroom together in Ohio, having a conversation on New Year's Eve. So this is, this is where you find me a bit in despair. So, okay. So on New Year's Eve, back in the guest room, Katie and I lie in bed, staring up at the chandelier together. We spent the evening batting balloons around the living room with Evelyn and counting down to the new year at early eight o'clock. Thank goodness four-year-olds can't tell time. We call it an early night. Do you think I'll feel happy again? I whisper. And then I cover my face with my hands. I tell her I'm so glad she's here and I just don't feel like myself. I keep thinking I can will myself to feel better. Instead, I get a glimpse of the me I can recognize in wavetops riding up and down on an ever-changing tide but shrouded in gloom. I keep reaching for an end to this pain to the to the wanting, but maybe I have to ride it out. Katie reaches to squeeze my hand and I let her. I take enough deep breaths that I finally fall asleep. In a week, Katie is back on a plane to New York City and my in-laws pack up our two new cars plus one of theirs to caravan down to Virginia with me and Evelyn. We'll get Ryan from the airport in five days. The roads wind through American forests and fields and I hum along to songs on the radio. I've spent much of December asking for help. I've needed naps, extra doctor visits and support in giving Evelyn the love she needs as I muddle through. Snow falls as we drive through the Oh. Oh.

Genevieve : 52:26

I have loved reading your book. You have such poetry in your words. What was it like to write that part of your excerpt there?

Lindsay: 52:38

Writing that part forward with Hunter, as you can, I mean, Genevieve can see me, but I have tears in my eyes right now because writing that portion forward was a very tenuous time for us. And then kind of thinking about that hope in the dark. I love this quote by the author, Barbara Brown Taylor, where she shares, um, I've learned things in the, you know, there things are just as valuable. The things that I've learned in the darkness is what I've learned in the light. Yeah. And so writing that part of the book, I think writing through our hardships and then finding purpose in them and sharing them, that is. the beauty of storytelling. That's the beauty of your hidden chapters. That's the beauty of us causing to connect and communicate together. And even though it is hard work to revisit that, even now, it gives me hope to look back on that person that I was, that was still believing and hoping. Well, I love it.

Genevieve : 54:05

Lindsay, thank you so much for this. I have enjoyed our conversation and I really, I was looking forward to getting to get the whole beginning to end. And so I'm excited. And of course, you know, I'll be here to see what this next chapter brings for you.

Lindsay: 54:23

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk through this in a way that I haven't before. So thank you for setting the stage so well and making it a safe and comfortable space in which to show up and do so of course

Genevieve : 54:40

Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Hidden Chapters. Lindsay's conversation today was a powerful snapshot of the beautiful tension between identity and change, passion and duty. Lindsay's story reads like poetry across continents, from Korea to Morocco to Ecuador, and I hope you'll take an opportunity to pick up her memoir Holding On and Letting Go, A Life in Motion. It reminds us to embrace difficulty and challenges, to find meaning in the Transitions and to share the hidden grace in every season of life. Whether you're learning to hold on and let go, I hope you connected with our conversation today. If you want to stay connected and get all the behind the scenes updates on hidden chapters, come join me over on Substack. It's where the conversations keep going. Also, if you're interested in purchasing Lindsay's book and connecting more with her, I am sharing all the links in the show notes. So don't miss out. Thanks for being here. and for listening to another chapter of Hidden Chapters with me, Genevieve.