#597 Brand Science Secrets for Smarter Marketing with Ethan Decker

What if everything you thought you knew about branding was wrong?

In this episode of Talking with the Experts, Rose Davidson speaks with global marketing strategist Ethan Decker, a renowned expert in brand science and advertising effectiveness. Ethan unpacks decades of research into how brands actually grow — and challenges the outdated advice still circulating in marketing circles today.

With 50 years of marketing science at his fingertips, Ethan introduces us to the Laws & Levers of Brand Science. These principles aren’t based on fads or hunches — they’re backed by data and have stood the test of time. From brand salience to mental availability, Ethan explains how to apply these levers in practical ways, helping business owners and marketing professionals make smarter, more strategic decisions.

You’ll hear how to bust the biggest branding myths, build customer loyalty, and create campaigns that convert without the fluff. This isn’t guesswork — it’s science that scales.

Whether you’re a solo entrepreneur or part of a large marketing team, this episode will give you the tools to grow confidently, communicate clearly, and compete effectively.

🎧 Tune in now to upgrade your marketing game.

🎯 THREE Key Takeaways:

1. Marketing Myths Busted – Learn which common marketing beliefs are false and how they hinder brand growth.
2. Laws of Brand Science – Discover the evidence-based principles that every successful marketer should use.
3. Practical Levers for Growth – Gain actionable strategies to apply brand science and scale your business with confidence.

✨ CONNECT WITH ETHAN

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AppliedBrandScience/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ehdecker/

Website: https://appliedbrandscience.com/

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👉 Rose Davidson is a podcast host, producer and coach who helps entrepreneurs, coaches, and business owners navigate the process of starting their own shows through her signature OPAL system—Organise, Produce, Arrange, and Launch.

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Transcript

Voiceover | 00:00
Welcome to Talking with the Experts. This is where we discuss great ideas to take your business to the next level. How do we know these ideas work? 
 Well, it's because we're talking with business owners who are using these ideas. Business owners who have years of experience and expertise. All things business by business owners. And now, here is your host, Rose Davidson. 

 Rose | 00:30
Hello, welcome to Talking With The Experts. I'm your host, Rose Davidson from rosedavidson.com.au. Talking with the experts is all about business by business owners for business owners you can find it on all podcasting streaming platforms and on YouTube and today it's my very great pleasure to introduce you to Ethan Decker and we're going to be discussing laws and levers of brand science now. I've been told that Ethan is a global expert in the science of brand growth, evidence-based marketing and consumer behaviour. And the Principles of Effective Advertising. He travels the world teaching marketing leaders and their teams how to use brand science to grow their business. His approach, the laws and levers of brand science, cuts through fads and zombie ideas, retrains people's marketing intuition and gives people the tools they need to be more effective, more efficient and more confident in their marketing and branding activities. Ethan, it is such a pleasure to meet you. Welcome to Talking with the Experts. 

 Ethan | 01:39
Rose, thank you so much. It's good to see you. 

 Rose | 01:43
We were discussing offline about curse words. Now, I told Ethan that I didn't mind if they were curse words, and if he chooses to use them, then he had my full permission to do so. 
 So I'm just warning people before we start that if you hear something that you're not comfortable with, then don't watch. That's my advice. 

 Ethan | 02:06
I only curse in Russian as well. So that might help the folks who don't know Russian. 

 Rose | 02:14
Tell me a little bit about your journey and how you ended up, you know, teaching people about these laws and leathers. 

 Ethan | 02:21
Yeah, I did not set out on my journey intending. To do branding and marketing and advertising. I set out to do ecology, actually. Long ago, I was an ecologist. I studied ecosystem science. I actually got a PhD doing computational ecology. I studied fractals and chaos theory and all those things that Jeff Goldblum shows in the old Jurassic Park movies. You know, butterflies wings in Tokyo can cause a tornado in Kansas, that kind of stuff. And somehow through a series of unfortunate incidents, I ended up in marketing and advertising. Now, on the other hand, it did take me around the world and that was a lot of fun. I got to do a lot of market research online. In countries all over the planet. 
 And then from there got into marketing strategy. And when I did, I said, well, what's the science? What's the research? I was a researcher in a way. And most people just laughed at me and said, there's no such thing. And I suppose I have the last laugh because there is such a thing and it helps you avoid costly and timely mistakes. 
 So if you know the marketing science, you can do better marketing.

 
 Rose | 03:37
Wonderful. So let's dive into dispelling some of the prevalent myths around how brains are growing. 

 Ethan | 03:46
Sure. One of the first ones I love to talk about is that people... And there's no real soft way to say this, but people generally don't care about your brand. And when you're a brand person, when you run a brand, when you own a brand, when you've started a brand or work on one, you think a lot about it. And you care a lot about it, and you know a lot about it. And it's hard to remember that no one thinks cares or knows as much as you do, about your own brand and especially not your customers. And they might be regular customers. They might buy you all the time, but they might barely remember Wait, is it the blue pack or is it the red pack? I think it's the blue pack. I think that's the one I get. And it's disheartening in a way. But then it's freeing. But it is a very pernicious myth and a belief in marketing that people care about brands and they care enough to learn about brands and learn all the details about your brand story and follow you on social media. I don't know about you, Rose. I don't follow many brands on social media and I'm in marketing. 

 Rose | 05:01
I don't either. I think, you know, I'll go and buy something because Perhaps I've bought it before, but I'm not faithful to any particular brand. 

 Ethan | 05:13
Sure. Well, that's another... Great myth to talk about is the myth of pure brand loyalty. There is once again a belief once you're owning a brand or managing a brand that you're going to win people over. And they will become converts. Forgo all other brands for you and you fall in love with Levi's jeans and you only buy Levi's or you're an Adidas person. Wait, is it Adidas? On your side of the planet? 

 Rose | 05:42
It depends on what country you come from, I think. 

 Ethan | 05:45
Correct. So maybe you're an Adidas person and never a Nike person. 
 You know, and it's like the Capulets and the What's the other ones? From Shakespeare. Two houses. Divided. The Capulets and the Romanescus. I don't know what it is either, but... Supposedly, you become a diehard Nike person and you never buy Adidas. And the truth is... Is actually much more familiar to all of us if we just remember, that if you look in your own closet, you have multiple brands. If you look in your own cupboards, you buy multiple brands of sauce or pasta or whatever it is, you're very rarely... Beholden and married to just one brand. But when you're a marketer, you think that's the goal. You think that's the pinnacle. The peak of having a strong brand is to have undying brand loyalty. But actually, it's kind of a myth. And even the mythic brands like Levi's or... Nike or Apple or in the States here, there's a motorcycle brand called Harley-Davidson. You And everyone feels like Harley-Davidson has this mythic level of brand passion and brand loyalty. Even Harley. Doesn't have Harley-Davidson's mythical levels of brand loyalty. 
 So it's another myth that's very pernicious in the worlds of branding and marketing. 

 Rose | 07:08
That's interesting because, you know, a lot of people won't buy anything else but a particular brand. You know, in clothing or, footwear or cars or mud bikes or whatever. 
 I mean, I know people who'd will not buy anything else but a Harley-Davidson. Sure. 
 You know, and they've tried others, obviously, you know, as they were progressing up the chain. But, yeah, so I'm thinking that, you know, There might be a level of brand loyalty about the place, but I don't think you actually start off being loyal to a brand. You have to grow into it. 

 Ethan | 07:47
Well, for sure. And the tricky part is that the people that tell you about their motorcycles are the ones who are fanatical about their motorcycles. 
 So the person who only buys Harley Davidson, that's probably the exception. To all the folks around you who don't really talk about their motorcycles because they have two or three different brands and it's a Suzuki or it's a Honda and it's fine. But the passionate people are... Are the loud ones and they're the ones we remember. 
 So if you follow your own social media, it's very deadly because All you hear are the passionate people who seem to love your brand and have given up all other brands just for you. And there's a massive silent majority who like you just fine and they still buy some other brands and that's okay. 
 So it's a self- You know? 

 Rose | 08:42
Yeah, I guess that, you know, especially when we're like online marketers, like, you know, a lot of my friends are. They sell online. They don't do a lot of face-to-face work. Marketing you know they find that you know on social media that there are dips and troughs and peaks and whatever in how people are perceiving them or if they're buying from them and so how do we overcome that you know so that there's more of a level playing field. 

 Ethan | 09:14
Yeah, you know the first thing you have to do is in a way, don't believe your own hype. You know, you have to. Realize that for every one person that writes a glowing note to you about how much they love your product, there are 10 or 20 or 100 people who love your product. Who are fine and they buy you maybe once or twice and that's okay and they didn't fall in love and that's okay. I do this when I do workshops. I will often ask people, you know, who has a favorite pair of Jeans. A favorite brand. And invariably someone has a brand that they're passionate about. And it's a room of 20 or it's a room of 200 or 2000. And I'll ask the question and I always find that person. And they are a diehard with that brand. 
 And then I ask two other questions, and this is where you have to change your intuition. The other two questions I ask are, first of all, do you buy anything else from that brand? And often it's not. You might buy Levi's jeans, but you don't buy Levi's underwear. You don't buy Levi's socks. You don't buy Levi's shirts, even though they make all those things. 
 And then the second thing I ask, and this is the really funny one, I say, raise your hand if you own more than two brands of jeans right now. And invariably, you know what happens. 999 out of 1,000 people raise their hands. And it shows you that we all fixate on that one person with the Levi's. And we... Ignore or forget or don't notice the other 900 who are happy buying a few different brands. 
 So one way out of the trap is don't read your own hype. Don't read your own press. Listen to the quiet people too. Go seek them out. Go listen to the light buyers or the people who bought you once and didn't buy you again. And don't just read the rave reviews you get. 

 Rose | 11:13
Yeah, sometimes it's an aga thing really, isn't it? It's, you know, it tends to, You get a really good review or you get two or three and you think, you know, ego is all blown up out of proportion. But then you get a really bad review or a mediocre review and you think, God, what have I done wrong? 

 Ethan | 11:31
Yeah. Yeah. I'm no stranger to that. I get a great glowing review about something I did, an article I wrote or I'm starting a podcast as well and some comments and that. People gush about something and then I think, people love it. 
 And then I remember my own advice, right? Which is, that's one out of a thousand. And the others, they maybe read it. They maybe skimmed it. They maybe just saw the title. It's okay. It's. 

 Rose | 11:56
Okay. Yeah, that's just, yeah, just leave it at that and think, you know, really, am I that good or is it just in my own head that I'm that good? 

 Ethan | 12:05
Yeah. So that's one of the keys is to get over that. 

 Rose | 12:09
Yeah, absolutely. So let's move on to learning. What are the three most important and universal laws of marketing? 

 Ethan | 12:18
- Sure, well, I think we covered a couple of them already. One of them was, that people really don't think, care, or know that much about brands. Even the ones they buy regularly or the ones that are expensive. 
 So for instance, Cars. Are fairly expensive, especially if you buy a new one. And very few people. Again, one out of 500. We'll check under the hood. And look at the shocks and the struts and look at the safety record and look at the brakes and read all of the reports. 
 You know, the rest of us are happy if the review site gave it. 4.8 stars out of 5. 
 You know, we're happy with a star rating. We don't really want to look at all the details. 
 So that's the first one is we just don't think, know and care much about brands. The second law is that we tend to buy across a range of brands. And that's normal. That's okay. We don't often have customers. Pure loyalty. We might for one or two categories, you know, maybe you've got a favorite pair of jeans. Maybe you have a car brand that you have bought. Over and over for the past four cars or something. But that's one, that's two out of, I don't know, 400, 500 different brands you work with every day. And it's easy to forget. How many different pickles you buy. Or how many different brands of shoes you own. Because you're fixated again on the things you feel a lot about and care a lot about. 
 And then here's another law, which is that... Generally speaking, Big brands. Have higher levels of repeat purchase. And little brands have lower levels of repeat purchase. 
 So if you're a small brand and you have a lot of light buyers who come in and then disappear, that's normal. Now you got to make sure it's not exceptionally abnormal given your size. But. It's a really regular law. 
 So if you're a large car brand, like what's the largest car brand where you're at? 

 Rose | 14:21
At the moment, it's a Chinese one. I think it's called Cherry. 

 Ethan | 14:26
Cherry, it's the biggest brand? Okay. Here in the States, it would either be Ford or Toyota. But these are some of the world's largest car brands. They tend to be bought over and over again at higher rates than the real small brands like Fiat or Mini Cooper, or these brands that we think are passion brands. 
 You know, like, people love their Mini Coopers and they all talk about it all the time. And there's such an association with your car and it's such a badge. But over and over again, the research and a lot of it comes from Australia shows that. The big brands get higher levels of repeat purchase, which some would call loyalty. And the small brands just have lower levels of repeat purchase. They're just they have lots more light buyers. 

 Rose | 15:16
Maybe because they last longer. 

 Ethan | 15:19
It could be. I think it's partly just because they don't come to mind as much. And they're not as easy to find. And a small brand doesn't have all the options. 
 Like if you buy a Mini Cooper, they come in what, three models at most? 

 Rose | 15:35
-
 Ethan | 15:36
Toyota has... 30 models. 

 Rose | 15:38
Yeah, absolutely. Ford has, I don't know. I've lost count. 

 Ethan | 15:45
Yeah. Yeah. 
 So there are lots of factors. One of them just is the product range, but another one is how available is it? 
 And then the third is, do you even think of it again when it's time to buy it again? Or do you think of the main brand, the big brand? 

 Rose | 16:00
I mean, I've been a full-time for, I mean, I didn't start off. My first car was a Chrysler, but I was a Ford. I guess, for a number of years. But I'm thinking about changing brains because Ford is not manufactured in Australia anymore. And so I'm looking at doing, when I buy a new car, then I wouldn't change. Friends because I've features and whether it's built here or, you know, just certain things that will sway by my decision making. Into changing our brain and not being loyal to another. 

 Ethan | 16:41
Yeah. Yeah. There might be another... Belief, I'm not sure if it's quite a myth, but there's a belief among marketers that After the customer gives you money. And you give them the product or service. That afterwards they owe you something else. And they don't. 
 I mean, if they love the product or love the service, they'll come back. Or if you somehow remind them. To come back or remind them you exist again, which is often the big problem. But I think a lot of brand people think that there should be this third step. 
 Right? We get the money, you get the product, and then we get undying love or passion or evangelism. It's not part of the bargain. And so if you enjoyed your car, but your needs changed. You don't have any obligation to stick with that brand. You look for a car that meets your needs. 

 Rose | 17:38
Absolutely. Now I agree. I totally agree with that. And I think, you know, brand loyalty is has changed over the years I mean in days gone by people would I mean, we had a I'm out of count. Built here. It was called Holden and then General Motors brought them out. But people will feel... Faithful to because it was an Australian vehicle. Right. Once they were no longer manufactured in Australia, people didn't buy them anymore, obviously, because they were manufactured overseas and they weren't an Australian product. 

 Ethan | 18:20
Right. They loved you for some reason and then you changed and they stopped loving you. Shocker. 

 Rose | 18:26
Yeah. 

 Ethan | 18:27
I'll bet you've never had the situation where you found a great pair of pants or a great jacket or something and you loved it because it fit you just right. And then you go back to get it again and they changed the cut of the clothing. And you're like, hell, well, there goes that. I'm not going to buy that one again because they messed it up. 

 Rose | 18:49
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you shouldn't. You shouldn't. Weak things if, you know, if there's nothing wrong with the original model. 

 Ethan | 18:56
Right. Right. 

 Rose | 18:57
Absolutely. Now I'd like to learn about these laws and leathers, Ethan, if you can let in on the sacred to what those are. 

 Ethan | 19:06
So the laws are some of the things I've been talking about, which are the things that apply... To almost every brand, almost every category. Every continent. They're very universal. It's like gravity. 
 You know, you don't have to re-measure for gravity when you change your zip code. Your postal code, it's still gravity. It works pretty much the same. 
 So the laws are these universal things and they're good to know. And a lot of people in marketing, a lot of people who run companies don't because you're just too busy running a company to look all this stuff up. And then there are the levers and the levers are things which you can pull. 
 You know, this is a metaphor I've invented. The levers are things you can pull that could work for you. And might not. They could work today and then not next year. They could work for your brand, but they could work for your brand. But not someone else's brand. 
 So for instance, let's say there's a, well, there's a great. Furniture store in the States called Restoration Hardware. And they literally are not on social media. They're not on TikTok. They're not on Pinterest. They're not on Facebook. They send out. Mail catalogs. A thousand pieces of paper a year to your address, showing you beautiful, glossy photos of their furniture. Now, some would say it's the modern age. You have to be where people are. You have to be on social media. You have to be on TikTok. You have to follow the eyeballs. Apparently you don't. Because Restoration Hardware is a $3 billion brand, and they're making a half a billion dollars in profits. 
 So they're doing quite well, thank you very much. And they're running a play, they're pulling a lever that comes from 100 years ago, back from the Sears Roebuck catalog days, before TV or even before radio. 
 So a lever is a thing you can pull. That you can choose to because of what works for your brand, what resources you have and what preferences you have. But it's important to disentangle the laws from the levers. Because some will say, well, I'm on social media and it's working and everyone's on TikTok now and no one watches TV anymore. Quick, you have to be on TikTok. It's a law. But it's not. Being on TikTok is a lever. 

 Rose | 21:33
Yeah, it's a way of marketing, I suppose. It's just another step in the process. 

 Ethan | 21:39
Yeah, they're optional marketing things. So the levers are options in your marketing mix, and not requirements or rules or universal laws like the laws are. 
 Yeah. So that's a key difference. 

 Rose | 21:51
Absolutely and I think that you know if we as marketers of our own businesses and you know we don't have a marketing team behind us you know we need to know what the difference is between these laws and what the levers are I mean there are laws to marketing I'm pretty sure there are you know strict guidelines to how you should be marketing your business but you know. Those laws can be change to suit a particular business. And so you can't just stick to something that might not work. 

 Ethan | 22:23
Correct. Correct. And the deal with levers, which is maddening and horrible, is that the data doesn't always tell you which lever to pull. 
 Like Rose, the levers for you might be different than the levers for me. I do brand science and brand strategy and I do brand trainings. And the way I market myself and advertise myself might be pulling different levers than you pull. And they certainly might be pulling different levers than IBM pulls. Or, you know, Bain Consulting might pull. But we can choose those levers and we have to explore those levers and try them. And if some work, then we want to... 
 You know, put all our chips on those and really use those and exploit those. And if some don't, we want to move on. 
 So levers you have to experiment with. But the laws are the things where you have to get it right and you have to kind of follow them because, you know, gravity works no matter what planet you're on. 

 Rose | 23:20
Absolutely. Now, if you want to learn more about what Ethan can offer you or, you know, find out more about what these laws and levers are, you can find him on Facebook at Applied Brand Science. He's on LinkedIn as E8Decker. And you want to check him over on his website at appliedbrandscience.com. Tell me what can people find on your website, Ethan? 

 Ethan | 23:44
They can find a lot of orange. I'll tell you that. Being the brand colour, I try to be consistent with that. But they can find all of my old blog posts. I write a lot of information about the laws and the levers, so you can learn a lot while you're there. You can learn about the services I offer. I offer high-end consulting, but I offer some very affordable products and services for small companies and small brands as well. 
 And then what else is on my website? I think there might be a little bit more about me. Not much about my dance history. But that's for a different time. 

 Rose | 24:24
Ethan, it has been a pleasure. Would you like to share any other information or anything else with our audience today? 

 Ethan | 24:31
Rose, I think you nailed it all. 

 Rose | 24:33
Wonderful. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for giving up your time today. And I look forward to talking with you again soon in the future. 

 Ethan | 24:41
Likewise. 

 Rose | 24:43
Bye-bye for now. 

 Ethan | 24:44
Cheers. 

 Voiceover | 24:46
You've been listening to Talking With The Experts, hosted by Rose Davidson. Make sure you have a look at our back catalogue over at talkingwiththeexperts.com. And be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss out on any episode. We look forward to your company next time.