#611 Master Digital Marketing with Anna Covert’s Covert Code

What if you could future-proof your marketing and stay ahead of the digital curve?

In this insightful episode of Talking with the Experts, I sit down with Anna Covert—digital marketing visionary and author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing. With over two decades of global experience, Anna pulls back the curtain on what it truly takes to build a powerful, profitable digital presence in today's noisy marketplace.

We explore how business owners, marketers, and executives can harness the power of data-driven strategies, AI, paid media, SEO, and even the metaverse to drive meaningful results. Anna’s insights stem from her work with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM, and her leadership at Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

But this conversation goes far beyond trends. Anna shares practical, real-world tactics—what’s working now, what’s not, and how to avoid wasting precious time and resources. We break down the three pillars of modern marketing success: visibility, credibility, and conversion. You'll also hear powerful stories from her career, including how she helped clients overcome major ad fraud and position their brands for sustainable growth.

Whether you're running Facebook ads, struggling with SEO, or curious about Web3, this episode will spark ideas and actions to elevate your marketing game. Get ready for a masterclass in modern marketing that’s both visionary and immediately actionable.

Listen in and discover why The Covert Code is more than a book—it’s a roadmap for success in the digital age.

✨ CONNECT WITH ANNA

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/covertcommunication

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-covert/

Website: https://covertcommunication.com/

Website: https://thecovertcode.com/

Website: https://annacovert.com/

Website: https://reactium.io/

📌 PROMOTION

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CW8L6CPH/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2NXK6C9UJ8N

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Transcript

Voiceover | 00:01
Welcome to Talking With The Experts. Here we discuss all things business, by business owners, for business owners. Here is your host, Rose Davidson. 

 Rose | 00:12
Hello and welcome to Talking with the Experts. I'm your host Rose Davidson from rosedavidson.com.au. Today my guest is Anna Covert and we're going to be discussing all things digital marketing and we're going to be discussing her book which we will talk about a little bit later. But Anna is a founder of Covert Communication, it's Hawaii's largest digital marketing firm and a recognized authority in digital advertising with over 20 years of experience. Known for her strong business ethics, she has worked with hundreds of companies worldwide. Her book, The Covert Code, Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing, has been published by Forbes, is available at major online retailers. And airport stores. The Kindle version has achieved number one ranking on Amazon in multiple categories. Beyond consulting for Fortune 500 companies, Anna is dedicated to protecting businesses from online fraud across countries. Search, display and advertising networks. And we were discussing before about how online fraud has just gone absolutely mad in just in the last year or so. 
 So she and Anna operates several marketing and tech ventures, including reactim.io used by enterprises like Apple, Microsoft and IBM. Anna, welcome to Talking With The Experts. I am so looking forward to this conversation. 

 Anna | 01:44
Thanks for having me. Can you tell it actually kind of happened by accident. 

 Rose | 01:46
Me a little bit about what got you into digital marketing? You know. 

 Anna | 01:52
I went to business school in Boston and did a degree in marketing, but back, you know, this is 20 years ago, and there really wasn't, well, we had websites, we really didn't have digital advertising. A website was more like a virtual brochure and just another opportunity, just like a touch point to be seen, but they weren't engaging. There really wasn't, you know, the right way to do it. What we consider digital advertising of today. And it wasn't until several years later that when I got out of college, Facebook made a splash. 
 And then I actually had a back injury. And as a result of that, I was going to physical therapy, my physical therapist asked if I could build her a website. And I have been building websites with a developer, you know, over his shoulder because I'm very creative, but never had the one by myself. But at the time, WordPress had just started making moves. And I had some friends who were installing WordPress websites. And I thought, well, if they can do it, so can I. And that started my journey online. And that was 15 years ago. And since then, you know, I just, it was just trial and effort. And, you know, there's a lot of failures along the way. And I deleted people's databases before, but, you know, all of it got me to where I am today and the knowledge to be able to write this book and share this knowledge with the community. 

 Rose | 03:11
Yeah, absolutely. Now, fraud online is running rampant and people are being scammed out of their money left, right and centre and their identities left, right and centre. In fact, I... I clicked on an email link the other day. Thinking it was from my bank. The email address looked legitimate, So I clicked on the link, didn't, you know, do my due diligence and read the whole email. When I actually went to the bank and to confirm everything, there were anomalies in the footer and they didn't use my name and so on. 
 You know, there were flags that I should have picked up but didn't because I looked at the email address, which looked real. So, yeah, bank was onto it straightaway, thankfully. However, as someone that's not as savvy as me and, you know, didn't know they could have put all of their details on this link and lost everything. 
 So, you know, how can we identify those red flags like, you know, I should have picked up but didn't. 

 Anna | 04:17
Yeah, it's really important. And even now, what's becoming really scary, especially for, you know, for everyone, but mostly for our older, like my mother, you know, our older generation where they're, you know, they're, it's so easy to be taken advantage of, like, as that, for instance, but you know, phone calls now that they can, if they get enough of your voice, what I just heard the other day from a friend was that someone called her mother pretending to be her. And it was her voice and made it sound like she'd been kidnapped and was being held ransom. And her mother was like, you know, 85 years old, almost had a heart attack because it was so upsetting. 
 You know, and things like that. And now even Loom, there can be deep fakes on Zoom where we can use AI to compound a video. There's an example I heard from a cybersecurity guy that said that, you know, there was a bank or financial institution where they had very strict regulations on how money was transferred. But this gentleman gets an email with a Loom link. From the company, just like you're, from the company, from the president asking to get on a Loom. 
 So of course he does. And he sees the president on the Zoom. And the president tells him to transfer $500,000 to this account. Of course, they do not go through the regular protocol, but he does it because the president's on Loom telling him to. 
 Well, it turns out that was all fraudulent. So it just leads us to believe that really the lesson here is that they're getting smarter. And they're really, you know, while there might be signs to look for, I think the most important thing is to always follow protocol. 
 You know, and even with your family and your own business, have some safeguards of, you know, if there is an emergency, we're going to use a code. Like, right. And like, almost like spy movies, like a watermelon is the code to know that it's real or, you know, so that we can protect ourselves. And if the bank ever emails you know, just go right to the bank domain and log in there. Because they, you know, so some of those better learnings I think will help us as individuals really why or what I specialize in or why my book is really to help businesses because the fraud isn't easy to see. It's not easy to detect because there are so many different types of bots now. 
 So there's two different types of what we call invalid traffic or IBT. There is basic IBT, which is easier to track and block. 
 Like I could know that you're in Australia, right? And I would see that and I would block it because I'm trying to advertise in Hawaii. That's pretty simple. Or I click on the ad and then we're recording the transaction or the mouse and it doesn't move like a normal human. When you land somewhere, you move around a little bit. It doesn't move. 
 So we know, okay, well, that's non-human. And up until now, we've been able to very successfully and very inexpensively block. 
 I mean, I saved $1,000. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in fake Google ads, Microsoft and Facebook, just from using a very simple, low cost plug in called click sees. But what we have not been able to prevent and now is becoming really scary is sophisticated, invalid traffic. They have click farms. They have the ability to mirror human behavior. 
 So we will perform several actions or go to the site and they'll hover. And then, you know, it does the sequence that makes it look like it's a human. And it's only with very expensive software like human or others that we're able to determine that it's fake. And that's only part one. The second most important part is, well, who's going to pay for it? Right. Because most of the time it's the advertiser who has to pay for it. And even if you report it to the company, they're like, well, that's within our threshold of margin. And, you know, that might be acceptable. I feel that, you know, last year, 2024, there was $100 billion of digital fraud reported. This year, and even in the last three or four weeks, I have seen regular fraud that I'm detecting triple. And, you know, so things are happening in the world and we're up, we're going to be ready here to spend a trillion dollars or more in digital fraud. 
 So companies must be on the lookout because what we're hearing and why I wrote the book is that companies come to me and say, well, the last agency told me I had to spend more. You know, the results are going down. I have to spend more. And the answer is that no, you never have to spend more if you're not getting results out of what you're spending today. And so I want our business owners to take a deep breath and be like, okay, you know what, let's, you know, a day offline is not going to be the end of the world. Let's regroup, you know, take a minute to make sure that you are blocking bots, you're working with partners that you can trust and will verify and validate that your spend is real. Right. Because it's becoming harder. 
 And then if it's not working still, you know, look at the website, look at the conversions, look at your audience and drill it down because spending more is not the answer. 

 Rose | 09:03
No. And then spending more to make less really doesn't work very well. But, you know, how can we understand that the key fraud detection tactics that, you know, that are out there? 
 I mean, you've used terms like geo-fencing and protection tools and traffic audits. So if you could explain what they are and, you know, how we can understand them a little bit better. 
 Yeah. 

 Anna | 09:27
Sure. So the one of the number one things I can recommend and on my website, the covert code.com, I have free resources there that everyone can go in and access. I have cheat sheets on Google ads. 
 You know, you can go to partner links and click on click see so you'll get a special rate. But it's only I mean, it's minimal. You can do a free trial for 14 days. 
 And then after that, it's only like $60 a month. And you will immediately get a free trial. Save thousands of dollars or hundreds of dollars right now, whatever you're spending in Google. It will block that how it works is this? 
 So you log in you place if you have WordPress, there's a plug-in if you don't have WordPress There's a little piece of code you just put on your site. That's step one Then you connect it with your Google Ads account. Now. What's very important is a lot of people gets get caught up in by Google and those experts that call you and you make they make you feel like you're really important and they really care about you. Right. And you're like, wow, Google's calling. This is cool. Right. But the bottom line is that they when they recommend these smart campaigns, they're in it for themselves. Right. I think we can all agree that not all keywords were created equal. Not all zip codes are created equal. Depending on what you're selling and your average price per transaction or whatever these details are, you know your business better than anyone else. And so no matter what Google tells you have to be in charge of your destiny and realize, well, no, you know. That may be the case for, you know, if they're looking at you compared to a million companies, but that's not the best thing for you. 
 So you always want to bid for yourself and be in control of your campaigns. The next step is, you know, to understand how media is bought online. 
 So when you are looking at on Google, for instance, and again, there's a checklist I have and you can just download or watch a video and very easy. But within five minutes, if you do what I tell you will save 30 percent of your budget and you won't even have started the protection yet. The two ways that they really get you is if you're in locations. 
 So in Google, you have locations. You can add a country, zip codes. You can add city and counties. Right. That's great. 
 So you might add zip codes for your state or. Zone that you're in Australia, right? Underneath the zip codes, there's a little arrow that says, you know, more that they hide from you. And if you click it open, you'll see that the recommended setting from Google is people located in or who show interest in my location. Now the one right below that's the one you want to select, and that is people physically located in. 
 Right? That's not the recommended one. Now, let me tell you why it matters. Let's say That. I'm advertising solar in Hawaii. Okay. And you, Rose, you're coming to Hawaii on a vacation. 
 So you have interest in Hawaii, right? So you're online, you're looking at airline tickets, and you're looking at hotels, and you're looking at restaurants, and you're planning a vacation. 
 So you're definitely interested in Hawaii. Now you want solar. You go online, you search for a solar company in your area. My ad. In Hawaii will pop up in Australia. Because you're interested in Hawaii. 
 Well, but that's the number one, 30% of people's budgets is because they don't see that setting and it's hidden, right? It's, but it's right there. If you know what to look for, that's number one, right? The second one is, you know, there's only three ways to bid now and two are controlled by Google. The only one you should be using is max CPC, meaning the most you are willing to spend for a keyword. It doesn't mean you will spend that. It's the maximum they can charge you. Because what happens is other people make the mistake of, they get afraid. Let's say I only want to spend $500 a month. 
 Well, that breaks down to like, how much it is a day, $15 a day or whatever Yeah, if that's the budget, right, that you put onto your account, because you're afraid, right? 

 Rose | 13:14
That math is. 

 Anna | 13:20
Well, let's say we're selling strawberries, and the average keyword is $3. Well, if you know, the ad is going to show and then if five people click, well, the ad turns off. 
 Right? Now, Google can spend 20% more than your daily budget. Upfront, right? 
 So that means that your ad will stop at the end of the month if they've done that. It doesn't allow you the flexibility to say, well, hey, I mean, if people were searching for you know, this white albino strawberry, that's maybe your specialty, you might be willing to spend more than that if they search for that specific thing. And just that not strawberry jam, not strawberry patch kids, not all these other words that could be associated that they shove in there. Right. 
 So it's really just about Making sure that you are maximizing your potential. And that comes from knowing the game, which is why I wrote my book. And, you know, you can, everyone, even non-technical people, it's not that hard. 
 You know, once you know the rules and how they're controlling the system, you can navigate correctly. And then you can add on click sees, which will block the first move. But it protects you from competitors, from what's called thresholding. What I mean by that is, let's say, you know, and we've all done it, we've all been guilty of this. But let's say you Google a competitor of yours, and up pops their ad, and you're like, I'm clicking on their ad, right? And you click on their ad. 
 Right? Well, you know, you don't want that possibility to happen multiple times, right? 
 So we don't want same thing, our customer, Maybe they're doing a lot of research or I have my pop up multiple times. We don't want them to click more than once because that costs us money. They've already been to our site. They already know who we are. 
 So we use thresholding to say, okay, we're going to monitor it and we only want to show the same person an ad a certain number of times depending on if they clicked or not. Right? That's not controlled inside of Google. That's controlled externally. Through click sees and these other protections protocols. But then that can help give you more assurances to increase your bid, feel more confident that they are humans, the same person is not clicking multiple times. 
 And then you'll get a real view of your bid. Digital opportunity, and then you can be strategic with making choices. 

 Rose | 15:42
How do we choose the right partners and how do we avoid these scammers? 

 Anna | 15:48
It's a great question. So, you know, I write in detail about it in my book, but what I would always say, the questions to ask, and I have a cheat sheet, you can ask your partner, but the easy ones on how to catch a fraud is you ask them a couple of things. The first is, How do you, so they're going to tell you, Rose, we're going to take your money. We're going to serve a million impressions. You're going to be like, wow, that's a lot. 
 You know, how do we, how can you prove to me that my impression ran? And let me back that up for everyone else who's watching. What is an impression? An impression is one ad. Okay, now if we were advertising on television, Thank you. We wanted to know, did our ad run? 
 Well, there are, at least in America, there are companies like Nielsen, that record every single TV station in the country. And they can pull a report that, yes, my ad ran on this station at this time. This is how many boxes were tuned in. If grandma slept through it and someone else left their TV on for their dog to watch all day, that's not their fault, right? It's fair. Scarborough does it for radio. There are third parties that follow print publications and make sure they're distributed. There are even companies that stand on the side of the road and click cars as they pass billboards to validate impression share. 
 So that you know that what you're spending is true. There is no third party oversight online at all. And that should scare you. That means that the only way, yeah, and so and Google up to this point, you know, they've just been the subject of another lawsuit here in America where they've lost. But what does that really mean? 
 You know, I mean, we'll see, right? Because they are in control of the entire ad exchange. And no one really knows how ads are bought and sold. Now we do know. But the way that you can protect yourself is knowing that there are companies that StackAdapt, AI Digital, others that I work with, and you can work with me in the agency. We have things, opportunities set up for small companies now to protect them. A good company will allow you to place a pixel inside of the creative so that when it fires on a page and it is viewable, we can track that independently. 
 So we know, okay, yes. It was on that page and it was viewed because it was exposed in the container. 
 So that technology is possible. Google won't let you do it from Google, but there are others who will allow you to do that. Criteo, the Quantcast, Stackadapt. There's a lot of DSPs and digital partners that will allow that. 
 So that's number one question to ask. How will we prove that our ad ran successfully? Then what is your BOP protection protocol? And what is the threshold? And will I be reimbursed if it exceeds that threshold? But most of the time, people, they may say they have no bot protection at all. That should scare you. Right. Especially now with even last year, we were looking at maybe three to five percent is what we thought. Now, today, I can tell you it's 18 percent. 

 Rose | 18:47
Wow. 

 Anna | 18:49
Yeah. And then that doesn't even compare with, have you ever been online? I'm sure we all have. And you click on something you want to read, maybe how to lose 30 pounds of avocados. And you're like, click, right. Or whatever it is. 
 And then you get so many ads on the page that you can't even read the article that you're trying to read. It's just like overwhelming, Yeah.

 
 Rose | 19:09
Right? Yeah, absolutely. I've got that, yeah. 

 Anna | 19:13
And those are becoming very common now. So 55% of websites online today are considered low performing, meaning that While we might like we, the advertiser might be saying, and we might be feeling like we're doing a really good job and we're saying, you know what? We only want to show ads that are viewed at least 55%. When someone's scrolling down a page, we want them to be seen 55%. 
 I mean, if someone's scrolling fast, they may not see the whole ad. We have to accept that. If all the ads appear on the top of the page, Right. 
 Well, technically they were viewable 100%. But did anyone ever view them? No, not really, because you're scrolling to look for your content and you were just overwhelmed, right? 
 So you didn't really see anything. We have to be very strategic now on just what is our expectation of the customer journey online? What are we, you know, taking a step back and looking more holistically and picking partners that are really, you know, providing that. Full frontal experience, meaning that, you know, we have, you know, we're buying social media, we're buying everything through one company that has a programmatic, meaning they have access directly to the ad exchange and are buying it like you buy stocks on the stock exchange. Right. 
 So we're not buying it from Facebook, we're buying it through the exchange. Onto Facebook, which actually is cheaper and better. 

 Rose | 20:37
Okay. Yeah. Great. Thank that. 

 Anna | 20:39
You for. 

 Rose | 20:41
Yeah, it's a great way to figure out how we can avoid being schemed by these people. I mean, I get endless emails, you know, how to get the first page of Google. 
 I mean, they just get blocked and deleted. So, you know, I don't. Because I don't know that they're authentic. And a lot of them come from Gmail accounts. And I think, are they legitimate or not? 

 Anna | 21:05
Did you know that there are 250,000 websites that come online every day online? 

 Rose | 21:10
Wow. 

 Anna | 21:11
173 a minute. So then when you ask yourself, do we really think we're going to get to the first page of Google ever? You have to be answering yourself, no. 
 I mean, it's a figment of the past, right? Search is changing. And, you know, now with SEO, with AI, you know, search is really changing. We're looking toward now what's called zero-click results, meaning that when you look for an answer to a question, before we were looking at results and we were looking for that answer. Now we're not doing that. And even the search engine itself is providing a summary response inside of the search engine. That's called zero click. 
 So as an advertiser, well, is anyone going to really click below that if they're getting the answer in the search engine? 

 Rose | 21:57
I don't know unless I'm looking for something specific but if I get the answer in the top part of the page I I'm not going to go any further. 

 Anna | 22:07
So that's going to change ads. And that's I think that's an I believe that's another reason why there's more fraud than ever, because Google and these other big boys are trying to make up for loss of revenue. And I mean, they're doing it the wrong way, you know, but we have to be prepared for a huge pivot in consumer privacy as well. 
 You know, what's what data we can receive and, you know, EU is ahead, like leading the charge. I think, you know, Australia as well has some better digital privacy. Practices to protect consumers, what's called universal consent, right? 
 Like it should be just as easy for me to give you consent as it is for me to take it back. And I think that that's going to lead to a much better online buying behaviour overall. But another thing that you can do, you know, to your Comment is if you ever receive an email and it looks good, right? 
 You know, the sniff test, it looks like the email is right. And if you reply to it, just push reply. Look at the reply to emails. That's where they unmask it. 
 So they can mask it. So when you look at it, when it first comes in, it can say info at bank.com. But when you reply... Then it will change. You'll see that become the view name and then the actual email will be next to it. 
 So that's another way. Sure. Don't reply because then they might be able to get your computer, but you can push reply and then look. 
 And then that's a good way to test really quickly. 

 Rose | 23:30
Great. Thank you for that. 
 Yeah. I wish I had known that before I clicked on the link. 

 Anna | 23:35
Bye. 

 Rose | 23:37
Tell me, how can we set an effective advertising budget? What are the steps we need to take? And, you know, what makes a great budget? 

 Anna | 23:47
It's a great question. So there are three ways to design and advertising budget. There's the all you can afford method. There is the percentage off the top. 
 So whatever we did last year, we carve a certain part out for advertising. Or my favourite and preferred way is what's called objective task budget. 
 So we come up with, okay, what are our company's goals? We want to, for in retail, we want to sell this many more SKUs. We want to increase our average cart sales. To this. 
 You know, we have to have clear expectations if we're in B2B. How many demos are we going to run? Of the demos that we run, how many become customers of ours? What is the average length from when they first become interested to when they purchase our service or product? But all these things factor in to us determining, okay, what are our goals? 
 And then how many leads are we going to need to achieve our goal? So if we're in retail, we say, OK, of all the traffic we got to the site, How many added to the cart? Of how many added to the cart, how many purchased that product. And how many people purchased? What was the average order? That creates the conversion rate of how much traffic we need to get to the conversion. 
 So then we back it out, we reverse it. It's much easier with retail than it is for other industries, I'll tell you, because there's a credit card transaction. 
 So it's much easier. But then we'd say, OK, well, we want this much money in growth. That means we need this many sales. That means we need this many cart ads. That means we need this much traffic. 
 So once we have that reverse engineered, then we say, all right, well. How much will it cost to get that traffic? 
 Right? And then we look to our opportunities, depending on you know, usually it's lower search intent. 
 So someone's seeking that product, they're much higher, like more likely to click and buy when they're lower, like in the process, right. But now depending with retail with awareness advertising, people, we know what you want, right before you even know it all takes a few to look at one product, you in that same category. And I mean, Facebook, Instagram, we, I mean, we know what you want, right? But then it becomes pretty easy math to say, okay, well, if we need to do a face of our Facebook conversion is 30% of the traffic. This becomes our budget. To achieve that goal. And if we realize that, well, our budget you know, isn't going to work, then we need to redetermine our goal. Or pick other venues and say, okay, well, can we get the traffic cheaper somewhere else? Making sure that traffic is real, right? But there are a lot of choices, but definitely the better way is to start with what we know about our company and our process. Because then the other way to increase the result is, you know, let's say it's B2B, right? Okay, well, we're looking at our sales funnel now. We're saying, okay, of all the leads we get, this is the percentage of people who sit with us. Of all the people who sit with us, This is the percentage we win. And this is the average length of time, right? 
 So if we could keep the same amount of traffic, if we can increase our sit and conversion rates, we'll have achieved our goal. We wouldn't need to spend more, right? We need to tighten that process. 
 So on both sides, you can achieve this growth, but you have to know... By myself, right? And to identify, you know, what are those opportunities? Tracking is key, especially online with analytics of, you know, where is the traffic coming from before converted? And it can be hard to determine, right? If you're not really thinking, you know, and again, on my website, I have free resources for how to create UTM. It's called a UTM tracking. 
 So if you're doing ads online, or even if you have a partner who has a link on their website to your site, and you think you're getting business from them, right? You think you are just giving them a link with a UTM parameter in it. It's free to do. And that can tell you with assurances, is that traffic generating actual results or not, right? 
 So some of that learning is critical. Before you determine where you're going to spend it and what you need to spend to achieve your goal. 

 Rose | 27:57
Totally wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. Now tell me a little bit about your book, The Covert Code, Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing. What's in it and you know why should people buy it? 

 Anna | 28:09
Well, you know, I just scratched the surface of what's actually in the book to. And this lovely podcast. But, you know, the reason I wrote it is I never really thought that I'd write this book, but I got to a point where. I realized someone had to do something. 
 You know, I work with business owners of all sizes of, you know, small mom and pops to large Fortune 500 companies. And the story is the same, that by the time they reach me, they've already been through three or more agencies, often spending hundreds of thousands of dollars without the promised result. I had clients crying to me on the phone, like where I've been and the devastation was just, I had to do something, right? 
 So I wrote the book very quickly. And luckily, I was able to do it. Forbes from pitch to publishing, they agreed and helped me get it out in 11 months because the crisis is real. And this is affecting us all. And so, you know, really. I, you know, the book is meant for business owners of all sizes. I walk you through clear, easy, actionable insights on how to pick your partners, how to track your results. 
 You know, we talk about CRMs and different websites, how to make an experience that is engaging and actionable and how to determine what should be in the site to help you. You know, once we get the traffic, that's only part one. They have to find a compelling story first. We have to make sure that the forms all work correctly, right? And that there's no loss there. 
 And then I go through clear, you know, actual campaign details on creating remarketing, how we track and measure the game, right? Because marketing is a math problem. You have to show someone enough ads over a certain period of time for them to remember you. We say we have the games, it's like seven times to buy. And I'll tell you as players, advertising evolves and people become, you know, they're scrolling like in it for eternity, right? The attention spans of Nats. 
 I mean, it's getting worse. You're going to have to be Showed you're gonna have to break out you're gonna have to use these tools we have to make a splash It doesn't have to cost you a lot if you go to and maybe if they're in Australia, they wouldn't be able to see. I don't have Australia turned on for some of my ads. But if they're in America, they're If you go to thecovertcode.com, you'll see I will serve you ads on television, at radio, podcasts, sponsorships. I'm only spending $300 a month on what they'll experience. And it is very aggressive. 
 So you don't have to spend a lot. You have to just know what tools you have available to you and how to work the game. And that's what I share in my book. 

 Rose | 30:44
Wonderful. Sounds like a really great book for anyone to have on their bookshelf. Make sure you read it and you get the best out of all your digital marketing. Now you can find Anna at Facebook on covert communication on LinkedIn at Anna Covert and on her website at covertcommunication.com, thecovertcode.com, annacovet.com and reactum.au. Anna, it has been an absolute pleasure to meet you and to learn from you. It's like My head's out here now with so much information. 
 Honestly, so much. Worthwhile came out of it because, you know, we have to all be now more aware of where our ad spend is going and how we can get scammed by all these you know, other businesses and people that, you know, just want to take our money and not do the work. 

 Anna | 31:40
Yeah, we have to band together and, you know, just like when the Better Business Bureau came into existence, you know, we really need self-regulation before we become over-regulated. And I think, you know, we're... We're not there yet, but I think if we band together and we're asking the right questions and stepping up as... The community, the change will come and it starts with protecting ourselves one by. 

 Rose | 32:03
One. Absolutely. And it comes down to asking the right questions. Wonderful. And thank you again so much. 

 Anna | 32:11
Thank you for having me. Aloha, everyone. 

 Rose | 32:13
Bye. 

 Anna | 32:14
Bye. 

 Speaker 4 | 32:16
You've been listening to Talking With The Experts, hosted by Rose Davidson. Make sure you have a look at our back catalogue over at talkingwiththeexperts.com. And be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss out on any episode. We look forward to your company next time.