Pen Pals

"Never Save the World": JT Ellison on 30 Books, Citrine Magic, and Writing Through the Darkness

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 2 • Episode 14

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Krisserin and Kelton kick off 2026 by getting real about the challenge of creating art in turbulent times—from doom-scrolling to feeling like your work is too small for the moment. Then they're joined by New York Times and USA Today bestselling author JT Ellison, who has written more than 30 psychological thrillers and domestic noir novels and co-hosts the Emmy Award-winning "A Word on Words" on Nashville PBS.

The conversation dives deep into the realities of a 20-year writing career: co-writing six books with Catherine Coulter (and learning how a #1 bestseller actually works), launching a fantasy series under pen name Joss Walker because algorithms don't forgive genre-hopping, and the 70,000-word wall where every book makes her want to jump off a cliff.

The trio discusses industry myths (bad sales track can absolutely be overcome with a book they can't ignore), the creative cost of social media pile-ons, and Stephen King's wisdom about writing with the door closed. JT shares her current aspiration after two decades of hustle: ease. Just write one book a year and enjoy it. Plus: major news that her Taylor Jackson series just sold to Thomas and Mercer for a full reboot.

Whether you're dreaming of your first book deal or your thirtieth, JT's journey offers proof that the path to publication rarely looks like you expect—and that sometimes the detours are exactly what your writing needs. Goals: Kelton plans to finish and send her memoir proposal to a friend for review, while Krisserin focuses on completing her grad school application essay and tinkering with the ending of her short story.

JT's Book Recommendations:

  • Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier
  • None of This Is True by Lisa Jewell
  • Outlander by Diana Gabaldon

Connect with JT Ellison:
Subscribe to JT's Substack: The Creative Edge
Visit JT's Website: jtellison.com
Follow JT's Instagram: @thrillerchick

Write to us:
officialpenpalspod@gmail.com

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton

Hi, Krisserin

Krisserin

Hi, Kelton. It's 2026.

Kelton

It's 2026. Here we're this year I was delusively hopeful about this year for about six days, and then wow, it really started to fall apart, didn't it?

Krisserin

Why? What happened? Where did all of your New Year's optimism go?

Kelton

Uh, to the news, I guess.

Krisserin

Yeah,

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Krisserin

I feel like I've just felt really, bombarded with news, with,

Kelton

mm-hmm.

Krisserin

horrific things happening in the world with horrific things happening in the United States. A man got killed by ice like minutes from my house, and It's really hard to think about writing when all of these things are happening. So,

Kelton

It's really important to make art in the presence of fascism, but wow. Is it hard? Wow. Is it hard? I wrote about this in my substack the other day where it was like, it feels like the only weapon I have is voice and pocketbook. And so, you know, those are, those are the weapons I'm using. I would've liked to come out of the Armory with something more powerful. But, that's all I have so far. So we, we keep up the good fight.

Krisserin

It's, it's very difficult for me to focus on or, or feel like art is worth making in my little

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

when things are so turbulent and scary.

Kelton

You know, it's, it's a nightmare. And I felt so silly working on my little memoir. But I did think of this podcast. I was like, Krisserin is gonna want me to have done something. So

Krisserin

not, I did

Kelton

I did.

Krisserin

compulsion.

Kelton

To be fair, you had already done so much in 2025. You accomplished a lot where I accomplished raising a toddler.

Krisserin

I feel like that is not generous to yourself. I feel like you did a lot more than that. You launched a whole new class. You wrote how

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin

substack you, you've created a whole new Instagram account.

Kelton

Yeah. But those are not what this podcast is about, so

Krisserin

I mean you, you worked on a novel. You started a memoir. I think you need to give yourself more credit.

Kelton

thank you. I have no idea what I said my goals were, at the end of last year for our break. But I'll tell you, I didn't accomplish whatever they might have been,

Krisserin

where's our document?

Kelton

any.

Krisserin

down. You wrote them down.

Kelton

Any, any parent listening is gonna be like, I told you so. But it turns out having a toddler home for Christmas break meant I did exactly nothing. I accomplished exactly nothing. And then shortly after he went back to daycare, I got the flu. So it's been, it's been slow. But this past week I did make a bunch of headway on the memoir proposal, and I think mid next week it will be ready to send to my friend to review, which I'm, I'm so psyched about. So that is gonna be sick.

Krisserin

Sick. I love it. I also, well, I, I am, I'm excited for you. I, I remember before we left on break, and it feels like it was a long time ago. I guess it was a month ago, so it sometime has

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

You had mentioned that you weren't gonna have daycare with woods, and also you were dealing with some like client related stuff. So whatever you got done is, is commendable In that time, I feel like really needed the month to rest. I, you, you. I had a lot of family stuff with Christmas and still like this Saturday or Sunday, excuse me, I'm going to, my dad's side of the family, we're having our Christmas get together. So it's not even over for me. I have presents I need to wrap. but yeah, it's, it's definitely difficult, but I kind of took it as permission to knowing that I was gonna have, you know, I'm going on submission this month and so there's not much that I can do until I meet with my agent. Thing I really have pending is my grad school application, and I did work on that. I pretty much got everything ready except for my essay. I have written, but it needs to be shaped and it's really hard to write. I might ask your advice on this'cause it's really difficult to write an essay when they're like, write a personal statement, answer these five questions.

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

like, okay, well I want it to be a piece of writing in addition to answering these five questions. But it's really hard when they're very, very specific.

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

working on that, but, and I'm also considering whether I want to use my speculative fiction novel as my writing sample or my Gustafson novel as a writing sample. I'm like, I

Kelton

Hmm.

Krisserin

Speculative fiction is very specific and they might be like, oh, we don't really do this type of fiction here, you know, so I'm a little, I need

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

a little bit. But yeah, that's pretty much what I did the break. I really did a lot of bed rotting. I think I watched four full seasons of housewives. It was fantastic.

Kelton

Wow. Incredible. Ben and I have picked up watching Love Island UK again. That was a big, that was a big show for us while I was pregnant and during maternity leave. And so we've, we've returned to our beloved Young Slags.

Krisserin

Well, if not, this is such an aside, but if you, are a Traitors' fan as I am, Maura Higgins and

Kelton

Oh, I know. She's on it

Krisserin

she, anyway, we'll talk about that later.

Kelton

with her brand new face. She looks amazing.

Krisserin

was like, she, she looks like AI and she does. She's

Kelton

does. She looks incredible. She did not look like that when she was on Love Island. I mean, she still looks like her herself, but it, it just looks like she got beaten the face with the Hollywood Stick so hard.

Krisserin

And she looks great. Send, send

Kelton

Yeah. And then as soon as she opens her mouth,

Krisserin

Oh, I

Kelton

yeah. I'm like, oh, she's there.

Krisserin

I love Porsha from the Housewives of Atlanta and she was in the car when something happened and she was like, Maura, you were there. She's like. I don't remember. I'm like, you cannot be this dumb. I thought she was the secret traitor because I was like, you cannot be this dumb mora like you are on a show with really smart people. Get it

Kelton

Moira. Moira.

Krisserin

you and your fanny flutters. and then, and then Rob from, Love Island us is on it too. Who I think is, yeah,

Kelton

Oh gosh. Don't tell Ben. But it's like, when I first saw Rob, I was like, yeah, he's cute. And then when I saw him on his season, I was like, oh God, I'm in love with him.

Krisserin

Ted Bundy hot. You know what I mean? Like,

Kelton

Yes, yes. You are. Like, I shouldn't, but I do.

Krisserin

one of those guys that if we went to school with him, we would find him attractive, but he, we, we would just eviscerate him. We would make fun of him so bad all the time. that would

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

do anyway.'cause he's too attractive and he needs to be

Kelton

Yeah, he does. He deeply needs it. He deeply needs it.

Krisserin

Anyhow, let's talk about writing not tv, which is all we've been doing is watching tv. So, no, but I mean, I did do some writing. I did, like, I did my essay. I pulled up my short story, my clone short story. I've been working on that a little bit too, which is funny because, the lawsuit, the 23 and Me Lawsuit's been in the news a little bit, which is kind of what inspired the short story. So I've been, it's been in the back of my mind. I'm having hard time finding an ending that feels right. You know, short stories are really hard.

Kelton

Endings are hard in any form,

Krisserin

I

Kelton

so,

Krisserin

I am pretty good about knowing how I wanna end things most of the time, with the exception of the first book for a Parasocial, my teacher, mark, who we're gonna talk to on this podcast, mark Zarus, is a confirmed guest, the next

Kelton

yay.

Krisserin

is really exciting. He was, he was kinda like, what if you didn't end it that way? What if you ended it this way? And I was like, Hmm. And it worked so much better. he was like, what if

Kelton

Oh, that's so cool.

Krisserin

Yeah.'cause I had this like, in my mind, this idea that this one character had to be uncorrupted and had to, you know, have her

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

Escape unscathed from everything. And he was like, but what if she didn't? And I was like, Ooh,

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

didn't?

Kelton

Well, I really like that.

Krisserin

ended up so much better. You gotta like, let go sometimes with, especially with writing killing or darlings is the way to go and letting go of these things that like, you feel like just have to be true Like

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

it doesn't have to be true. You know? So in my clone short story is like, what if she's not the one precious clone? What if another version shows up? You know? What if another clone shows up and then the clones like, no, this bitch has gotta go. So I'm playing

Kelton

Have you read the latest V.E. Schwab?

Krisserin

Yes. Bury our bones in the midnight soil. Yeah.

Kelton

Yes. Because what you're describing just reminded me of the end of that book.

Krisserin

I did read, I read it over the summer and I read it in like, I got it from the library. I read the actual physical book, which I don't normally do. That book is V.E. Schwab is so good. She's such a good writer. That book was excellent. It was fun, it was surprising. I love epic storylines, lots of characters and yeah, that was great. It was

Kelton

Yeah, it was, it was excellent and I hated it

Krisserin

it.

Kelton

little, I loved the writing and I'm obsessed with V.E. Schwab, but I closed that book and was like, damn it,

Krisserin

I, I don't wanna

Kelton

I just,

Krisserin

I, I knew what

Kelton

no spoilers. I mean, you could kind of sense it. But she wrote three really unlikeable female characters, which I think is, and like propelled you through the book to read about all of them. And I think that's like really amazing art. But, you know, it's like, I have talked about how much I love to like, love a book and like leave and be like, yay, that was fun.

Krisserin

I thought it was fun.

Kelton

And she. I mean, parts of it were fun.

Krisserin

at the

Kelton

I, um,

Krisserin

me. I was like, yeah, bitch. Get it.

Kelton

yeah, totally. But yeah, I just was just like, Ugh, these girls, ugh.

Krisserin

Yeah, I loved it. And also one of the characters' name Sabine, which is my daughter's name. So

Kelton

Yeah. Beautiful name,

Krisserin

love it. Gotta love it.

Kelton

quite the character

Krisserin

what's

Kelton

I.

Krisserin

on with you, man? What's, uh, what's in terms of writing? So you're gonna, you're gonna send, I know you're looking at me like, what the fuck are you talking about? Uh, you're gonna

Kelton

Listen, I have been cranking against the newsletter. The Rewilding winter practice starts February 4th, and so that's been taking a lot of bandwidth and I've been trying to really be gentle with myself that like I am writing that class, that class is not, not writing. And so that has taken a lot of creativity and a lot of bandwidth, and I have to like, give myself the grace to be like, you wrote that it still counts as writing. There's only a few spots left. It's almost sold out already. Um, I don't know when, I don't know when this podcast comes out, but, um, you should get a spot. Um,

Krisserin

20th

Kelton

four spots left. Well then maybe it'll be sold out. You should check. But if you are ever, like I am out of touch with my intuition, I am making sloppy decisions. This is a class that will help get you back on track. So visit kelton wright.com/rewilding for that. I am, I have made a lot of major headway on the proposal, which is really exciting because once I was thinking about this the other day, once the proposal is dialed and I can start querying agents, the writing time goes to the novel, which I got really excited about. Um, I am really pumped for that. I know querying is, you just, you have no idea if it's gonna be like three weeks or three years or never. So I know, I know that I have like a long run runway of free writing time to allocate, so I'm pumped for that.

Krisserin

How's your reading life going?

Kelton

How is my reading life going? My library announced a new challenge for the year, which is to do the Dewey, and they, do the Dewey Decimal system basically. So check a book out from each section of the Dewey Decimal. So I'm gonna do that. So that, that's 10 nonfiction books. I ordered a few books. I ordered a memoir about home, which I'll talk about after I read it. I ordered the name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. What is his last name? Oh, no,

Krisserin

looking at

Kelton

I'm just realizing I've only ever seen it written and I'm like, now I'm losing the letters. But the name of the wind, it's hugely famous. My new strategy is that the book that is in progress, I dedicate to one book now and I leave it open on the bar, in the kitchen so that I can just read like a couple pages at a time. And some days that means I read 30 pages some days that means I read half a page. But it does, it has helped me be like, that's the book, that's the book you're reading. So that's my approach for Toddlerdom 2026.

Krisserin

I like that if it's in your face, you're kind of like, oh, I could do this instead of look at my phone.

Kelton

Yeah. Yeah. I just, I increasingly just don't wanna look at that phone.

Krisserin

Same, I have been trying to cut down on my, social media consumption time, which I did do because there was a week, I think at the end of the year where I spent 17 hours on TikTok.

Kelton

What

Krisserin

Horrifying. But I think last week it was like eight hours. So I'm getting better. Yeah, I, have, besides working on my essay and a little bit of my short story, I've written a couple substack essays and then just didn't publish them.

Kelton

interesting.

Krisserin

I'm like, I don't know. I'm not trying to be precious about what I publish there, but I do feel like I wanna publish something meaningful and substantial and I just, none of them, they felt hollow. Like I wrote a lot and then I was kind of like, this doesn't feel like it has a point, so I'm just gonna leave it here for a

Kelton

I mean.

Krisserin

you know?

Kelton

I almost didn't send one of the newsletters I wrote recently'cause I thought it was so bad. And then several people told me it was the best thing I've ever written.

Krisserin

that.

Kelton

And I was like, well, I have no idea. I have no idea. I wrote this while I had a fever and I thought it was trash. So here we are.

Krisserin

I guess you don't

Kelton

Um

Krisserin

I, I need to, like, I, I might, I don't know, I need to take like an essay writing class or something. Actually Tin House has an essay writing class that seemed interesting that I was like, maybe I'll sign up for that. and then in terms of reading, I've been reading historical romance novels'cause they're fun and comforting. And I just gotten into this author named Loretta Chase, and she's super fun to read. So that's what I've been doing. Yeah. I'm just trying to

Kelton

Oh, nice.

Krisserin

slowly enter the year. I'm trying to acknowledge the season that we're in, reject the, new year, you know, push to reinvent ourselves. And, when the spring Equinox comes, I'll, I'll really, know, I'll do my

Kelton

Oh yeah. I love that. That's my new year. All right. In the exact opposite of taking it slow Krisserin. Today we have an absolute productivity juggernaut on the podcast, JT Ellison.

Krisserin

inspired.

Kelton

JT Ellison is the New York Times and USA. Today, bestselling author of more than 30 psychological thrillers and domestic noir novels, and the Emmy Award-winning co-host of a Word on words on Nashville PBS. She also writes Contemporary Fantasy under a pen name Joss Walker, including the award-winning Jane Thorn series with millions of books sold across 30 countries. Her work has earned critical acclaim, prestigious awards, multiple TV options. I'm obsessed with JT I found her on Substack. She really writes through her process, and just like brings her readers along for the journey. And I, I, it's, it's like she publishes a book a year it feels like, and I am just in awe of her ability to like commit to the craft. And I'm so super stoked to talk to her today. So let's get into it. Jt, welcome to the pod, listeners, JT Ellison is here with us, who I am obsessed with and is such a, a wonderful person JT welcome.

J.T. Ellison

Thank you. I'm so excited that we are finally managing to make this happen.

Kelton

Jt, I know you through Substack, and the way that you guide your readers through writing your books essentially and the whole craft process. But I don't, I don't actually know your origin story. Like, I don't know your, like, this is my first book. This is how I got an agent, this is how I got published. Like, to me you're just like New York Times bestselling USA today bestselling, like writer of a billion books. So I would love to hear, love to hear, how it did start.

J.T. Ellison

So I'm gonna, I'll go very quickly through the origin story. I was always writing when I was little. I wrote poetry and short stories and I loved English. It was my favorite class and I did really well in it. And I got a double major in politics and creative writing, thinking I was gonna go to an MFA program and be a writer. And my thesis advisor, my senior, told me I wasn't good enough to get published. So, and it, she was, she was very, very. Impressive poet and I trusted her. So I quit writing. I went the politics route. I, I got, yeah, we lived in DC so, you know, that was a, it was a easy fallback position then my husband and I, I met my husband the first night of grad school in political management. So everything happens for a reason.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

And we. Eventually, after a couple years, he wanted to move home to Nashville, which is where he is from. And so we did, we moved back here in I think 98 and I turned into the worst country music song. My cat died. I had no friends. I couldn't get a job. I kept getting lost.'cause there's one road that goes on all four parts of town and it's a totally different road, but has the same name. It was, it was challenging. And I finally got a job at a vet. And the third day I picked up a golden retriever and herniated my disc in my back and had to have back surgery

Kelton

Oh my God.

J.T. Ellison

I, I mean, bad country music song I was, when I was doing rehab, I went to the library and I liked crime fiction and I, anybody knew, and she said, have you read John Sanford? And I hadn't. And I was three books into his praise series and I went. I really wanna do this. And I mean, you know, I, I had nothing else going on, right. my husband was like, God, do it anything, do anything. If you wanna write a book, have at it, just, you know, get out of my hair. And, and so I did. What I thought was a book, it was actually a very long novella. I knew nothing about the industry. I knew nothing about the organizations and the awards and the, the other people out there. I mean, I was really in a vacuum, and then I, I sent it to every publisher in New York to the publishers, not to the agents, to the publishers, and got. Summarily rejected. But one wrote me back and said, you have an absolutely beautiful writing style, but there's nothing original about this story. And that was an incredibly liberating kind of moment. And so I, I chucked that. I took the first paragraph, went back and rewrote it, and that was the novel that I got my agent with. this was over, you know, a four year period of. You know, working and learning. I also went to a book signing, met my first author in person and real author, John Connolly's, Irish crime fiction writer. And there were multiple, you know, other writers there. And they're like, why aren't you and sisters in crime? Why aren't you in a critique group? And I'm like, those things exist. know, really, really naive. that they kind of got me along the path. And then I got my agent in 2005. that book did not sell. He sent it all over New York and it didn't sell and it didn't sell for a very specific reason. Every editor had the exact same reason why they didn't want it. And he said, write me another book. And I did. And that ended up being my debut, all the Pretty Girls in 2007. And that book sold in a three book deal, like the night we sent it out, the editor wrote back that night and said, do not sell this to anybody else. So.

Kelton

Gosh.

J.T. Ellison

It was a very long process to have like this moment of success, but I mean, yeah, that was 20 years ago. That was 20 years ago.

Krisserin

So I have to ask,

Kelton

That's amazing.

Krisserin

go back to your teacher who told you that you, I would

J.T. Ellison

Everybody asked me that and I, I looked her up to send her the debut and she never got tenure, so.

Kelton

Oh, sorry lady.

J.T. Ellison

I figured

Kelton

That's what happens to a villain.

J.T. Ellison

Karma took care of that.

Krisserin

honestly, like the one thing a teacher is supposed to do is to and educate. So that makes me so mad. But you're, you are not the first person who I've heard and where a teacher has been like, you, you don't got it kid. You know? Like, what the hell? That's horrible.

J.T. Ellison

you just, you don't have it. It's, you know, I'm really sorry, but that's, that's just it. And, and I. Didn't at that moment probably, but with the proper guidance and the proper, you know, teaching. I, I'm actually glad that I never got an MFA because I, I really have my own style and my own voice, and they would've stripped me bear from that, right? That they're like the Marines, they break you down and rebuild you in their own image. what would I have lost? I might have gained, but what would I have lost?

Kelton

Yeah, it makes me think of a, a poli sci professor I had who was like, this essay's really beautiful, but it's barely about the Idaho government. That was all the encouragement I needed to be a writer. I was like, we're leaving poly sci behind.

J.T. Ellison

there's

Krisserin

That's really funny. I was also a PolySci minor English Lit major.

J.T. Ellison

Oh, that's so

Krisserin

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

So we're, we're all on that same kind of, you know, interested in the world and how to express ourselves

Krisserin

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kelton

I think like that world building, you kind of wanna know how the intricacies of it actually functions. So you're like, where, where is the nefarious level here that I can mind for my own creativity?

J.T. Ellison

no, absolutely. That is really funny.

Kelton

I, I'm curious, did you ever revisit that original book that you shopped around?

J.T. Ellison

So it ended up coming out as the eighth book in the series as a prequel story. I, I

Kelton

Whoa, cool.

J.T. Ellison

I pulled it together for an anthology. They were doing an anthology of full length novels and was like, do you have a, a novel in the drawer? And I'm like, well, I actually do. I've got one. so I, I went through, I edited it. And, and, and I addressed a couple of the, the really beginner things, what I'm reading. I was like, Ooh, ah, you know, clunk, clunky, clunky, fixed all of that and published it. And then my publisher came to me and they're like, well, why don't we put this out? I'm like, So Field of Graves is the prequel to the Taylor Jackson series, and it came out as the eighth

Kelton

I love that.

J.T. Ellison

Mm-hmm.

Kelton

That's so great. I mean, like Krisserin and I have a lot of projects stacked around, you know, that we're like one day I'll figure out what this does,

J.T. Ellison

It, it,

Kelton

but we're still fledgling.

J.T. Ellison

But that's, I mean, that's what you do right down the road. You realize where it fits into the cannon and, and how to make it seamless with everything else that you're doing. It'll be there.

Kelton

Do you ever feel haunted by some of your past books? Like, I know we're talking about like mining old material, but is there ever material where you're like, shit, I should have taken that.

J.T. Ellison

there's, first books were very dark. It

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

the serial killer era and they were, there were a lot of female authors who were in the romance. Side of things that were being moved into thrillers. Now I started in thrillers, right? And I want to go to romance because it's like eventually, you know, you see the world and it's like, I've seen everything bad. I've researched everything bad. Now I don't wanna kill people anymore. I wanna find a way to bring joy instead. Entertainment. Not that my books don't bring joy on a lot of levels, but they are still kind of dark. And some, some of the earlier books were really dark.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

the darkest of them all won the thriller award. And I'm like, you guys, this is like, are you thinking here? I appreciate it, but seriously.

Kelton

They're like, what?

J.T. Ellison

What were you thinking? I mean, you, this was, it was really creepy and, uh, you know, maybe I wouldn't have been that dark to start. I, I started when series were very, very popular. I really wanted to write a standalone. I tried to model my career after Har Cobin and Laura Lipman who wrote series in trade in mass market paperback.'cause that's where everybody started back then, and then broke out with the standalone in hardcover. But. Yeah, I mean, cold room. Okay, so you see this, you see my citrine that I wear,

Kelton

Yes.

J.T. Ellison

I the next book after the cold room is called The Immortals and it was about some, uh, young Wiccans who are going to the wrong side of wca. And I started doing all this research and turns out I am surrounded by sole practitioner Diana Witches. My hairdresser or two of my friends, I mean all these people that I just had no idea until I had started mentioning it.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

nightmares during the cold

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

wicked nightmares, night terror nightmares, and. When I was writing the Immortals, I didn't have any nightmares. And so when I was promoting that book, I actually spoke to the Pagan Unity Festival here in Nashville, and I was halfway through my talk and I was telling them about the nightmares. And this woman, she, she put up, she's like, I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt. I'm a sixth generation oracle, and you need a citrine because you are inviting this darkness into you and it is surrounding you and we need to get rid of it. I. Pick this one out. It picked me out. It's kind of like my wand. The wand chooses the wizard and the citrine chooses the witch. Um, and I have not taken it off since, and it really does knock down the the bad stuff. So

Kelton

so amazing.

J.T. Ellison

haunted by one of my picks and to

Kelton

That is so great. God bless that Oracle in the audience. She's like, babe, I got a solution for you.

J.T. Ellison

we're gonna fix this. I was like, she was awesome.

Kelton

amazing.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah, it was really

Kelton

Um,'cause that is really challenging material. Do you really wanna get into romance? I'm curious.

J.T. Ellison

Oh my gosh. I would, I would love to, but I, I get really psyched out because, uh, you know, Emily Henry is, is one of my absolute heroes and there's no way to recreate that. Right.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

also phenomenal. There's no way to recreate that. So it would, it has to come from a really organic place, and I'm not there yet,

Krisserin

Ask, what romance do you read if you are a big fan of it? Because that's what I was telling Kelton earlier. I've been, I, I like a lot of historical romance and so I've been reading Loretta Chase and I just, the yearning and I love the, you know, there's a lot of history in those books, which I enjoy too, but,

J.T. Ellison

yeah.

Krisserin

so Emily Henry, Abby Jimenez, it sounds like more contemporary romance.

J.T. Ellison

They are, um, Eloise Jane. You know, I

Krisserin

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

remakes too. That's really fun. I read a lot of romantic. Because I

Kelton

Oh yeah.

J.T. Ellison

my, my theme of pretty much all of my work is women finding their power. Right. That, that is where I, that's the world that I, I live in. And those books are very much women finding their power and being empowered by the love interest. You know, they, they find their power through the love, interest, belief in them. And that's, you

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

attractive. So, and I love fantasy, so that's.

Kelton

Do you feel like, I think that women write better thrillers because they have a better understanding of fear.

J.T. Ellison

It's a good theory. I don't disagree. I mean, that

Kelton

I mean,

J.T. Ellison

I mean, we're tapping

Kelton

every time. Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

of, oh my gosh, what? What could happen? What is my worst nightmare? And our worst nightmares are very different than a man's worst nightmares. Absolutely.

Kelton

Yeah. Well, that's my theory and I stand by it,

J.T. Ellison

I,

Kelton

but I also like this potential pivot into romance. Um, you know, obviously

J.T. Ellison

right?

Kelton

Reiner was, yeah, Rob Reiner was recently in the news and, came out that story that, when Harry met Sally, they were supposed to end up not together, but he met his wife while creating that movie and was so filled with Joy that he was like, no, they fall in love.

J.T. Ellison

They fall in

Kelton

And I love that, that pivot of like, what joy in your life can do for joy in your art. Um, so I'm excited to see you tackle that genre.

J.T. Ellison

There's an essay.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

I want that one. I wanna read

Kelton

Yeah. I need, I need to stop writing about what happens when my pets die. But I do think you have a great country song with, I picked up a retriever and I threw out my bath.

J.T. Ellison

The lyrics just write themselves.

Kelton

So how do you metabolize the dark material? I guess in, in conjunction with that, I sort of wanna ask like, what is your writing process and how does that like, fit into your life so that you, like, you can put down a murderer.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah, that's so, you know, it used to be we'd go to bed listening to forensic files and, and you know, that part probably why I was having all those nightmares. Um, but. I don't do that anymore. I, I actually avoid it, you know, like, it's like caffeine after two o'clock, no murdery stuff, you know?

Kelton

I like that boundary.

J.T. Ellison

yeah, it's a good boundary. I certainly don't read thrillers before bed. I mean, it's just like, that's a rule, that, that helps keep it light. And, and I read, you know, I switch, like I'll read a thriller and then I'll read a romantic, see, I'll read a thriller, I'll read a nonfiction, I'll read a, you know, so, so I'm not like, just inundated with that darkness. And the process for it. I mean, I, I, I have a really, I'm not a morning person. I'm not a morning. I want to be Lisa Unger who gets up at four o'clock and writes for three hours before the house. It, no, that's just not me. I am totally, I have to force myself to go to bed at night'cause I, I'll be up till two, three in the morning, right. I sleep in. I read the, the paper on my phone and, you know, I read the news and then I get up and have breakfast, and then I read, I'll, I'll read whatever, you know, whatever I'm reading. Definitely more thrillers in the morning. Um, and I do that for a couple hours and around 11 o'clock I, I start easing into office wherever the laptop happens to be that day. I mean, I have an office, but I write wherever, you know, just kind of peaks my. Feelings that day, and I'll write until about one, and then my husband and I usually have a driveway date. Um, if it's warm enough, we just go. We started that during COVID, during the pandemic. When we couldn't go anywhere, we would just go sit in the driveway. You know, it's like, okay, we're outside. and that, that has stuck. So we do our driveway date and just kind of catch up on what's going on. He works from home as well, most of the time. And then I'll go back and work again until like, you know, two to four or so, two to five depending. And then I work out and then have dinner, and then we watch shows and try to go to bed. So it's a, it's

Kelton

That's so nice.

J.T. Ellison

you know, it's, it's a gentle schedule. I don't try to force it if I'm on deadline. I'm writing more, 10 to one, two to five, you know, just really intense. I shoot for a thousand words a day. I can write a thousand words in an hour, uh, you know, and, and it takes me eight hours to do that. Thousand words sometimes. So.

Kelton

Yeah, I mean, I love that it's, you know, there's an element of leisure to it where you're like, wherever the laptop is, whenever I'm done with the paper, I get my driveway date in which I'm obsessed with. But it does sound like there's a, there is a schedule to it. Krisserin is a 5:00 AM girl.

J.T. Ellison

Are

Kelton

Um.

Krisserin

Well, I ha I have to because I, I gotta, you know, have a full-time job and kids, and so 6:30 and after I'm driving and logging into emails and, and then by the end of the day my brain's fried. So if I don't do it in the morning, there's no other time. But when I publish my book and quit my job, I'll do it your way. For sure.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah. It's

Krisserin

I am also a night person. I would much rather be staying up till two reading than, going to bed at, I went to bed at 8 45 the other night so I could get up. It's

J.T. Ellison

Oh my

Krisserin

fun for me. It's like all my whole life is just truncated so that I can get up in the morning. But you're, I was listening to your day and I was like, oh, that sounds nice. That's what I want. That's aspirational for me.

J.T. Ellison

I wouldn't mind having, you know, having the kids. We tried to have kids and, and that didn't work out for us, so, you know.

Kelton

I did hear a cat though.

J.T. Ellison

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. where is she? I can see her in the reflection of my. Oh, there she is. She's right behind me on the floor. Oh yeah, definitely the cats. But yeah, you adapt your life to what your reality is. And I'm sure you know Lisa's, most people who are writing first thing in the morning are doing that for that quiet before the real day kicks off and, and just takes away your concentration and

Krisserin

It's not the kids, it's the job. It's the job. I could get rid of the job.

J.T. Ellison

the jobs.

Krisserin

get a whole eight hours of writing in, you know?

J.T. Ellison

But you wouldn't, that's the funny

Krisserin

mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

I mean, it, it, it just doesn't happen that way. You don't have the creative ability to focus for eight hours on one project. I mean, you, you can, I shouldn't say never say never, but what you discover is there's still that two hours or so that you're really sharp and then. After that you're, you know, you're looking at other things. You're going back, you're checking, checking your

Krisserin

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

checking social media, you know, just doing all that and then, you know, okay, now you're getting back into it. It's the concentrated effort. Four hours is about my limit for super concentrated effort.

Krisserin

That and a lion's mane latte or something to help you. Help me focus, you know? That's great.

Kelton

So I'm curious, jt, have you stayed with the same agent?

J.T. Ellison

So I, I've had two agents. My first agent, who was the one that I, I got, he was my Harvard, right? He, he was, he was absolutely it boy of crime fiction is what they were calling him at the time. His name was Scott Miller and he, wow. He used, I was getting ready to submit to him and he saw my. Writing online and contacted me. So that worked out very nicely, and I was with him for 15 years and then I was making a change and he was going through a, a serious life event. He, he was very, very ill. He actually passed away just a few months ago.

Kelton

Sorry to hear that.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah, it was awful. But. When you're, when you're with somebody who's, they need to focus on staying alive for their family, and you're like,

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

my royalty statement. You know, I felt horrible trying to, trying to navigate, and I was in a very. Precarious moment in my career and I was getting ready to write a book about infertility, and I needed, I needed a woman. I, I needed a

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

So I switched agents over to, Laura Blake Peterson at Curtis Brown. Scott and I stayed very good friends, talked, you know, the whole time. He totally got it. And she, so I've had two agents now, and I've been with her for almost six years.

Kelton

Nice,

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

nice. Yeah, I mean, that sounds like, so you have to make those transitions for yourself and for other people.

J.T. Ellison

Exactly. Sometimes, you know, I, I was transitioning away from the kind of work that we were originally doing and, you know, the, the standalone career I had stopped co-writing. I mean, it just, things were, it just was a moment that I needed to make a

Kelton

I.

J.T. Ellison

it's, it was a good decision. It was a very hard decision. Very, very hard decision to make.

Kelton

I can imagine.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

Tell me about co-writing. That's something that Krisserin and I have joked about doing, and she started, and I, I dropped the ball, but I, I'd love to hear how that works and how, how that, how the chemistry helps

J.T. Ellison

So the chemistry of it, you need two personalities that are the same. You need two type a's. You can't have a type A and a type B, because nothing will ever get accomplished. Right. So you, you have to have the same kind of work ethic and plan. I was, I work for hire for Catherine Coulter who is if you wanna read some good romances. Krisserin that is, uh, old Catherine Coulter, some of her regencies. Wow. Really? You know, good stuff. I'm waving here.

Kelton

add it to the list.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah. Really good stuff. So she is one of those who, who was a romance writer who pivoted into thrillers and was reading I, I was reading her FBI Thriller series for years before all of this went down. And she, she was looking for a co-writer for an idea that she had had about a Brit. In the FBIA, a British, special agent with mi MI five, who comes and works with the FBI, and it was really kind of all the rage for the brands to get a co-writer. And, it was, it was, we happened to be at the same agency and Scott told me, he is like, Hey, captain Coulter's looking for a co-writer. And I was like, Hmm, I don't think, I don't think that would be a good match. Right, do you? And he was like, I don't know. I'll put your name forward. I was like, all right. And then we never heard anything. So I kept on my path and did a new deal with my publisher, and we closed that deal on Friday, and on Monday he called me first thing. He goes, you're about to get a job offer. I'm like, what? And so she called and all I remember is laughter. She's, an absolute hoot and she's just cracking up. And she was like, you're gonna come out here to California. I mean, she didn't even ask me, do you wanna do this? She just kind of announced that this was happening, which was basically the entire, you know, sum total of our relationship. She was, she's just a force of nature and it, it was really great for me to see how a number one New York Times bestseller worked. The work ethic, how the business works on that end of the spectrum and the co-writing itself. I would go out to her house and, and we would plot out the book, and I would come back to Nashville and I would write the book over the course of the next several months. And then I would, you know, checking in with her. Here's where I am. I'm having trouble with this. What should we do here? At one point we were like on the phone. Typing, I'm typing, I'm putting words. She, you know, it was, it was a really symbiotic relationship.

Kelton

It sounds really fun.

J.T. Ellison

was really, really fun. That was great. We did six books and then that year we saved the world. There was nowhere else to go, so

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

that ended.

Kelton

That's sort of like when you watch like the Fast and Furious series and you, they end up in space and you're like, guys, just stop making movies.

J.T. Ellison

Yep.

Kelton

You

J.T. Ellison

Yeah,

Kelton

know? There's nowhere else to go.

J.T. Ellison

The last book is about an astronaut who sets off an EMP in space. Swear to

Kelton

That's amazing. That's so great.

J.T. Ellison

anywhere else from there.

Kelton

Yeah. There's nowhere else to go. You have to go into the spider verse. You're like, now this character exists with a totally different life somewhere else.

J.T. Ellison

It just, it's kind of crazy. So never, never save the world. That's a nu number one thriller mistake. Don't make.

Kelton

I love that.

J.T. Ellison

So I've also,

Kelton

um,

J.T. Ellison

co-written though,

Kelton

cool.

J.T. Ellison

side where I'm the brand and I've brought in the writer to help on my fantasy series. So, and, and same thing. I would outline the whole book, let them draft. They would give me a really, you know, tiny draft, like 70,000 word draft, and then I would take it and expand it into, you know, 150, 120,000 word book.

Kelton

Oh, that's so fun.

J.T. Ellison

was, it was really fun. I felt kind of incumbent on me to reach back down the ladder and, and try to pull somebody else up as well.

Kelton

I'm cur I'm curious about your fantasy series. This is the one you wrote under Joss Walker, is that right? Tell me about having a, a pen name when your, your, your own name is already famous. Like what? I don't, I don't know anything about how that decision is made.

J.T. Ellison

So, the decision was easy because just, it is just an algorithm thing. The people that read the thrillers aren't necessarily gonna cross over and read the fantasy.

Kelton

Okay.

J.T. Ellison

you don't wanna be pushing the fantasy into the thriller algorithm and then not have it perform and have it de platformed. So

Kelton

Okay.

J.T. Ellison

a separate name made perfect sense.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

The problem was nobody wanted me to do it. I had this fabulous idea about a CIA librarian who opens a manuscript and, and is thrown into a completely new world, you know, a portal world and, and everything. And she's really snarky and really funny, and really bright and, and it just, oh my God, it's so much fun. These books are so much fun and I loved every minute of writing them. But nobody wanted me to do it. So I've, I've wrapped, I probably would've only done like three books and been like, all right, you know, I get it. The sales aren't there. You're not gonna, you're not gonna pick it up fine. we sold six books in the series, in the audio book before that was even written. And, you know, God bless my agent. So then I had to write six books.

Kelton

That's what a great problem. I love this problem.

J.T. Ellison

it was a great problem to have, and, and the, I always knew that the series was gonna do what it does. It's a reverse dystopian. We start in a world where nobody has magic. Very few people have magic, and, and it's been throttled and turned off by a bad spell. And by the end of the book, everybody has magic and, and the people who don't are the rarities. So it's really, it's really cool. It's really fun.

Kelton

I love that.

J.T. Ellison

It's a

Kelton

I mean, your writing is really cinematic. It's what a lot of people say when they review your books. And I, I wanna know what you think makes it cinematic.

J.T. Ellison

I think because it's a, it's a movie in my head. I see everything. I'm very visual. And I think that visual makes it onto the page because I'm describing the scene that I'm seeing in my head. And, you know, I might go on and on and make it a little too long and have to come back and cut It just, you know, for the points, screenwriting, eludes me. It is something that I've always wanted to do, but it completely eludes me because see how I could be a director but not a screenwriter'cause I see

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

to look like trying to strip that back and just write the, bare bones and, and letting somebody else enact it. I, I have a hard time with that.

Kelton

I did try that. I took screenwriting at UCLA for a couple years, and that was a, a common problem. My professor was constantly like, stop putting in director notes.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

like, you're not the director.

J.T. Ellison

are

Kelton

And I was like, but it's my story. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna switch to novel writing.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah, it's, it's really hard if you are a visual person. It's really hard to write what feels like very dry dialogue, you know? So-and-so enters the room and says, X, and then leaves, and it's like, well, but where's the sunlight? What are they holding in their hands? You know? What's the

Kelton

Totally.

J.T. Ellison

What are they wearing? I need to see. I need to see it.

Kelton

And I feel like the dialogue doesn't land for me when I'm reading it unless that is included.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

Like if I can't, if I can't see how they're saying it, then they could be saying it nine different ways.

J.T. Ellison

one of the best. And I read a lot of screenplays. I'm super into, especially adaptation. I'm really interested in adaptation. But one of the best screenplays I've ever read was the pilot episode of Californication.

Kelton

Hmm.

J.T. Ellison

my gosh. It found the balance of dialogue and description, and I could see everything. It was, it was really great. If you haven't read it, you should check it out. It's pretty cool.

Kelton

Oh, I will, I haven't read it and nor have I ever seen it.

J.T. Ellison

Horribly raunchy. Just heads

Kelton

great for me.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

I mean,

J.T. Ellison

Uh,

Kelton

I was telling Krisserin in our intro that, I'm watching Love Island UK and I mean like the, the original Love Island UK that came out maybe like 10 or 15 years ago. Just the Brat Sluttiest show I have ever seen, and I ate up every second of it, so I'm like, sign me up.

J.T. Ellison

It is, it's, very male, just FYI, but

Kelton

Mm-hmm. David Duchovny.

J.T. Ellison

Yes,

Kelton

Okay. I mean.

J.T. Ellison

It was later up later seasons got a little, a little too far down the road, but that first couple of seasons were just brilliant.

Kelton

So tell me what you're working on now. I saw a little something on Substack the other day.

J.T. Ellison

So, the next book is called, you Know Why, and it is coming out in, August, I think, we're just, I just popped up the description. It's about a woman who on a surprise vacation with her family for Christmas to Italy, and in the airport of their connecting flight, her husband disappears and then. other half of the story, it's two women's stories. The other half of the story is a woman on a plane home sees murderer of her sister on the plane.

Kelton

Interesting,

J.T. Ellison

And the

Kelton

interesting.

J.T. Ellison

I.

Kelton

I, I love an intersection.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah, it's really fun.

Kelton

Ah, I.

J.T. Ellison

it was, it was a hard book to write because I was writing the Substack about last scene and that, you know, so I was, I was very still very much in last scene and having to switch gears and go and write this book. So, so that one's coming out and I started a new book, last week called, well, I can't say what it's called,

Kelton

What is your idea process? You just seem like a fountain of them.

J.T. Ellison

Ideas aren't the problem. It's having the time to write everything that I want to write, you know, a

Kelton

God, no, I don't. I don't know. That's amazing.

J.T. Ellison

Well, it's, I, ideas aren't the problem. Concepts aren't the problem. It's then finding the concept. Behind the concept that allows it to expand into a hundred thousand words.

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

I don't have a lot of half eaten sandwiches. I don't start a story until I've got 40 scenes and I know,

Kelton

Okay.

J.T. Ellison

know, okay, this is pretty solid. I had started, interestingly, I had started down a different path with this 20, this is my 2027 book. I had started down a completely different path and pitched my agent and she loved it and everybody was on board. I had a knee replacement, as you know, in mid-November, and then had some complications. So I ended up having anesthesia every Monday for three weeks,

Kelton

My God,

J.T. Ellison

story's gone.

Kelton

no.

J.T. Ellison

I mean, I still know it in its amorphous form, but every, all of the thought process, everything, all the path that I was down with, it is, it's gone. I just could not make it work. When I sat down, I was like, all right, here we go.

Kelton

Wow.

J.T. Ellison

So, you know, some, sometimes it just doesn't, that doesn't happen the way you want it

Kelton

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, anesthesia would be damned.

J.T. Ellison

it's still art, right? It's still art.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

we're disciplined and controlling it and, and you know, the work. You have to do the work If you want to have a career in, in writing, right? Nonfiction or fiction, you have to do the work. But sometimes the work alludes, dude

Kelton

Yeah,

J.T. Ellison

and the work alludes.

Kelton

that's your new bumper sticker.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

What part of the process, if any, do you not like?

J.T. Ellison

Usually about 70,000 words in, I, I lose everything. I lose all the threads. I lose the point. I don't know where it goes. I don't know the end. I would rather jump off a cliff than write any more of the book. And that is usually the moment. Yeah. And I start, I start reaching out to friends and I'm like, blah, I hate this book. It's so stupid, blah. And they're like, you're at 75,000 words, aren't you? I'm like, yes. And they're like, Uhhuh, because, I mean, it's just every book I hit this wall right there at, you know? Right. As we're coming into the most important part of the book. Big, huge wall. that's my least favorite is that

Kelton

What do you think? It's about that point.

J.T. Ellison

I don't know my endings right. So, it's super important at that point to have to figure out how you're going to stick the landing. or I do know the ending and I don't know how to keep the suspense going to get there.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

the other.

Kelton

That is a, that is something I'm struggling with, with my, my novel that I haven't worked on in a little while. That's like, I can see the ending, like very picture, like I see the road where it ends. I see the characters and where they are and the weather, but it's like the in I'm, in my mind, the suspense is just like evaporated because I can see. That ending. And I, so I'm like, how do I create that feeling for, and I was, I was talking to Krisserin earlier about a VE Schwab book that I just read, Bury our Bones in the Midnight Soil. And I was so aware in that book that the ending was like five pages. It was so short. And I forget that like that's sort of an option that it doesn't, I don't have to keep them in suspense for like three chapters.

J.T. Ellison

Sometimes the end just is there. V's a good

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

and, and she is, she is like my complete antithesis of an, of author, right? She plans every single thing down to the, the last little bit. She knows exactly how the ending, the ending comes first for her,

Kelton

Wow.

J.T. Ellison

she builds. She builds a skeleton and then she puts in tendons, and then she puts in ligaments, and then she puts in skin, and then she puts in clothes and then

Kelton

Wow.

J.T. Ellison

it. So, so we all have different paths up the mountain

Kelton

It's good to know how she constructs because it's like, I do try to pay such close attention. It's, it's hard in, in a really good book to pay that close attention for me because I'm absorbed in the book and I have to be like, pay attention to what they're doing with these words so you can learn something.

J.T. Ellison

Well, I mean, I think there are books to learn from and there are books to

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

And sometimes if you are in one of those books that you're like, I'm gonna learn so much from this. Read the book first, then

Kelton

Yeah. That's a good idea.

J.T. Ellison

I mean, that's how I taught myself. I mean, what I learned in college of how to write is not what I do. Right. Uh, I,

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

deconstruct all those to Sanford novels and figure out how to write a thriller. And, and that's a, that's if you are in a book that you're like, wow, this is gonna be a joy and a really fun experience. Just read it and then go back and deconstruct it.

Kelton

Yeah, that's fair. I should reread the Koman series.'cause I did read that in like four days.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

I was just like, these are incredible.

J.T. Ellison

it's, it's, it's like watching Game of Thrones. Did you, did you watch Game of Thrones?

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

Okay, so spoiler alert, if you haven't watched Game of Thrones turn, turn your

Kelton

too late.

J.T. Ellison

down. Okay? So she burns it all down in the end, right? If you go back and everybody's like, no, that would never happen. It was so out of character. I can't believe it. you go back and watch it again, they spend eight seasons trying to make sure she's not gonna burn it down. That's all she

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

through the entire thing. That's her plan from the word go. And they fail. They fail in stopping her from doing the one thing she has set out to do. And it was very much with her character. It's very much how that story was going to end. It's so clear that they knew that

Kelton

Yeah. I think, a lot of people were just mad. They got Denarius, Arian tattoos.

J.T. Ellison

Right?

Kelton

Yeah. It's like people who love Paul and Dune and it's like you just haven't read the books.

J.T. Ellison

Absolute power corrupts Absolutely. is a reason why that is true.

Kelton

Okay. I wanna talk a little industry with you.

J.T. Ellison

Okay.

Kelton

think, what do you think are some of the myths we're up against?

J.T. Ellison

Oh my gosh. I mean, the whole lead up into the holidays, there was a lot of talk about track sales track.

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

was everywhere over Substack. I read at least 10 pieces on it, the, the myth is you can't overcome a sales track, right? If you have a negative

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

you either you're done or you have to rename, rebrand, start over. And that is not true. you write a book that they cannot ignore, it

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

any. Negative sales track. I mean, it, it, it's just, that's just the truth. I've had it happen with me. I've watched other people do it. I mean, yeah, it's not great to have your sales declining instead of going up. But there are moments where you have a book that's sheer genius and they're gonna buy it and they're gonna promote it, and, and it's gonna start everything over for you. So it's all about the work, not about the numbers.

Kelton

Yeah. I mean, that's good to hear. I was, I was asking an agent on Substack in late November. I was like, is it true that I shouldn't query in December? And she was like, well, it could be or it could be. You're the only email they see and they pay attention. So I was like, oh God, I love that approach. Maybe I should have tried that.

J.T. Ellison

So, I

Kelton

Um,

J.T. Ellison

to be that the industry shut down. I mean, they, they only

Kelton

yeah.

J.T. Ellison

a lot of acquisitions in certain, you know, in the spring and in the fall. And then the rest of the year was spent putting those books together and getting them out to the public. And that's changed. I mean, the, the whole industry books come out all year round. acquire all year round. There are times where you know, you've got a better chance of. know, getting somebody's attention because, you know, they're open for inquiry. But,

Kelton

Is there anything about the current publishing landscape that you're like, ah, wish it was still the good old days, or do you prefer the structure it is now?

J.T. Ellison

You know, that's an interesting question. I, I feel like we're at each other's throats a lot. And,

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

necessarily the case a long while ago. Social media is the worst thing that ever happened to us. really, know, I've made great friends on social media. I love the friend aspect of it. I hate seeing people ganging up on authors. I hate. Somebody says something and it's like, that's it. You are gonna be burned at the stake now and your career is over. Your life is over. You are voted off the island. You are the wink est link. Goodbye. no forgiveness anymore. And that's. I think that translates out of just the publishing industry, but it is, it's kind of a scary place to be and it's inhibiting people from being honest and truthful in their art. I think.

Kelton

I, I totally agree. I have found that already in working on just a, a proposal. You know, my memoir proposal is loosely about the concept of finding home and the conditions for growth. And I keep having these little gremlins in my head of future, audience questions that are like, the, this book is entitled and privileged because you have the choice to choose home. And I find that threading into my writing this like, disclaimer language of like, well, of course, you know, like this is coming from a place of like, if you have these safety nets and if you have this. And I keep reminding myself, not every book is for every person. And I hate reading those disclaimers because I know that it's usually not the author's intention to be like, huh.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

know, and it's like having these people just prodding and poking and tearing apart are not for the reasons it was created, I just find is really unhelpful.

J.T. Ellison

Yes,

Kelton

so I, I'm just like,

J.T. Ellison

very free with our criticism. We're very free, very free with our criticism. So, you know, does that start with. You know, hearts on Facebook, does that start with stars on Amazon? I mean, where,

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

was the tipping point that became the slippery slope that gets us into this, perfect strangers are gonna judge you before you've even read anything. It's like, okay,

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

that's not healthy.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

it's not a healthy place to create from. And Stephen King says, and it's so, so true, right? With the door closed, edit with the door open. can't

Kelton

Hmm.

J.T. Ellison

honest in your art if you are in inviting in what might be naysayers into the actual creation of the work.

Kelton

Yeah. I mean, I think that's so true. That's why I need a door on my office.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah. I mean, it is a literal and figural.

Kelton

Yeah. Keep the cats in. Keep everybody else out.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah. My doors are closed, but I have to keep a purse in there so the cat can walk in and out, you know? Yeah.

Kelton

Oh yeah. This is the house I live in.

J.T. Ellison

It's, it's, you know, and you have a lot of distractions right now. I mean, you're a new mom, you've got all of the attendance with, with that and, you know, weather. I mean, your weather is a character in your life in

Kelton

It is. And a character in the book.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

So I, I mean,

Kelton

I mean,

J.T. Ellison

my advice would be to let that go and, and. The

Kelton

I will embrace that.

J.T. Ellison

of it. Yeah. It, it needs to, I've read your work. It comes from a place of humility. You don't need to point it out.

Kelton

I appreciate that. So tell me, what are you still aspiring to? You know, on our end, it's like you've, you've done it, you are like, you are what Krisserin and I are like looking toward as our North star, but like US stars got ambitions.

J.T. Ellison

Stars got ambitions. I I, I, now, it was really interesting this particular year after the knee surgery and everything that went sideways with that, my goal for the year was just to write a book, just to get a book

Kelton

Hmm.

J.T. Ellison

And that is something that I've actually been working toward for 20 years. You know, to

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

be able to focus on writing a book and not have to. Not have to blog, not have to promote, not have to do side projects and, and co-writing and, you know, all of those things. I've been pedaling really hard for a really long time,

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

and the, the ease is something that I'm trying to embrace. You know, we were talking about the schedule earlier that it feels very flowy and ease. That is, that's the goal for me, is to be able to, to know my schedule, to start the book at the same time every year. To have built-in breaks, be able to go on vacation, travel the world, go see things, experience new lives, experience new people. That's what keeps your art fresh anyway. Um, and, and be able to do that without the sort of damocles of, you know, you've got this deadline, you've got that deadline, you've gotta do this, you've gotta publish this, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, so that's my goal. My

Kelton

Hmm.

J.T. Ellison

is, is to lean into ease of, I've done 20 years of scrambling. Now it's time to let the work speak for itself and just write a book a year and enjoy it. it

Kelton

love that.

J.T. Ellison

the most important thing.

Kelton

I mean, I think I can, anybody can stick to that at any stage. It's like you're doing it because you love it. So it's like try to try to remember that You love it.

J.T. Ellison

Try to remember why you're doing this. Remember that vacuum you were writing in 20 years ago when you were just lit on fire by the idea of this character. Ironically, I don't know when this is gonna but it, it'll be out because we're just announcing it. This week I just sold the entire Taylor series to my publisher, Thomas and Mercer, and they're bringing the whole series back out. So that'll

Kelton

So cool.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah.

Kelton

Oh, that's amazing. I'm excited.

J.T. Ellison

20 years later here, it's coming out again for a whole new audience. You know, I'm kinda like a superhero movie, getting a reboot.

Kelton

That's awesome. Oh, I'm so excited about that. Alright, I have one final question I always ask everybody. And, what are the three books that stick with you that could be recent, it could be all timers, but things you hold near and dear.

J.T. Ellison

So Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier, which is just my hands down favorite. It is that you want from a gothic. It's got the house, it's got the, the writing, it's got the mystery, it's got the ghosts. It's just, it's just a perfect novel on a lot of levels. Recently, Lisa Jewel wrote a book called, None of This is True

Kelton

Oh, yes.

J.T. Ellison

it is bonkers. And it was, it's one of those books that you're reading going, God, I wish I had written this. You know, I could

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

This would've been great. Let's do that. around my feet and we say

Kelton

Hi Kitty.

J.T. Ellison

Say hi, bunny.

Kelton

Kitty.

J.T. Ellison

Um, and. Oh, you know, it's a tie. I love Diana Gabaldon, and I wish I could read Outlander again for the first time.

Kelton

Mm yeah.

J.T. Ellison

Because that book blew me away and I had no idea, know, what could be done by merging genres the way she does, you know, it's historical, it's science fiction, it's romance, it's all of these things. It defies genre and, and that was really exciting to read. And I read it at the beginning of my career and I was just like, wow. If I was ever a grownup writer, I could write like that.

Kelton

Oh, those are really good ones. I haven't read any of those. I've seen Outlander but

J.T. Ellison

you know, that's how it

Kelton

I, that's what people say, you know? And I, I really, I do like seeing something first and then, and then going into the books because then I, they can't miscast it for me. You know, I'm like, the people are already there. There's nothing worse than reading the book and then seeing the cast and being like, who was the casting director on this?

J.T. Ellison

yeah, that's very

Kelton

Oh, those are amazing.

J.T. Ellison

is a great, but it's very, you know, compact won't take you long and it's just, it is a classic that is a life-changing for writers classic.

Kelton

Can't wait to read it. Any, any book where the house is a character. I'm like, that is right up my alley

J.T. Ellison

I like the set pieces. Set pieces are cool.

Kelton

best tell all of our listeners where they can find you, what they should be reading of yours and all the good stuff.

J.T. Ellison

So I am on Substack at the Creative Edge, and my website is jtellison.com and you can get to me through both places. my social media handle is ThrillerChick, so I'm on Instagram and all the other ones as thriller Chick there as much. I really like Substack. I like the long form, and I like that it's quiet. It's not noisy and flashy, so I'm more

Kelton

Yeah,

J.T. Ellison

than anywhere else. I'm on Substack because of you, Kelton because I, I somewhere found your essay and just went, oh my gosh, this is what Substack is, and I subscribed immediately and that was it. You started me on Substack, so thank you

Kelton

I dunno. I didn't remember that if I knew that I've got real mom brain.

J.T. Ellison

Yeah. No,

Kelton

That's amazing.

J.T. Ellison

You were the first person I read first thing I read on Substack and you were the first person I subscribed to.

Kelton

Well, the listeners can't, mostly can't see me, but I am gobsmacked.

J.T. Ellison

no, I've, I've been a fan for a long time and I'm really excited to see where you go with your work because you're

Kelton

Ugh.

J.T. Ellison

writer. Just beautiful.

Kelton

Thank you so much. Well this has been awesome. I'm so excited to have you on. I'm so glad we can make this happen. We'll link everything in the show notes, and please subscribe to jts Substack the Creative Edge and buy her books'cause they are craft.

J.T. Ellison

Thank you. This is great.

Kelton

So great to connect with you. And I have, I have returned again and again to our earlier conversation just like as a, a point of momentum and motivation to be like, just do the work. Just get it done. Stop working on your clients for a minute and like do the work that you love.

J.T. Ellison

just give yourself an hour.

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

J.T. Ellison

all you need. Just touch it for an

Kelton

Yeah.

J.T. Ellison

and you'll be fine.

Kelton

Yeah, I mean, it's been been really helpful.

J.T. Ellison

Good.

Kelton

JT is the best. She just makes me wanna go write More like, it makes me feel like all I'm doing wrong is scheduling.

Krisserin

I'm, I'm humbled.

Kelton

All right. Well, while we have the spirit of wanting to get things done, let's talk some goals. So I think, you know, we talked about this a bit in the opening, but my goal is just to send to my friend who's reviewing my proposal to send her the proposal. It'll be done, it'll be ready and sent off to her by the next time we record. And I think that's a totally achievable goal for me.

Krisserin

I think you can do it. I know you can do it.

Kelton

Yeah. Easy. Done. One goal done.

Krisserin

I, I feel a little bit, uninspiring to other people because I really just need to get this essay done and send my application in. And other than that, just keep tinkering with the end of the short story and figure out like where I want to submit it. I really do. I

Kelton

Yeah. Like,

Krisserin

wanna publish this short story. I, I think it

Kelton

yeah. I mean, Krisserin,

Krisserin

I really love it. I just gotta figure out how to tie it up.'cause I think I told you that when I submitted it for my, my science fiction class, my teacher was like, this story's amazing. The ending is not it. I just like, I gotta figure it out. Maybe I'll send it to you, Kelton, and you can tell me how to end it.

Kelton

I would listen. I would love to read it and spitball. I don't think I'm gonna come up with your ending, but I,

Krisserin

you to,

Kelton

I. Yeah, totally. But I do, when other people give me ideas, it does give me such conviction in what's not right. I think so. I I would love to be the person who's wrong for you.

Krisserin

Well, I did

Kelton

Also, I just have to backtrack a little. Be like, you're not uninspiring for applying to a grad school program. Oh, Krisserin. Just like dedicating her life to the craft. How boring. Come on,

Krisserin

I'm not,

Kelton

come on.

Krisserin

I'm still in this weird in between zone, you know, I don't, I, I

Kelton

Yeah,

Krisserin

disconnected from my book. I feel really disconnected from writing in general. I don't wanna start a new project because I don't wanna have to shelve it and then pick something else up. So I'm

Kelton

yeah.

Krisserin

and I'm trying to give myself space from the second book, because I did finish it before Thanksgiving, but I still feel like I'm, I, I need

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

ferment a little bit before I go back to it and just. Tear it apart. So

Kelton

That's fine.

Krisserin

it's the season we're in, I guess.

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

All right. Well, it's been a great interview has been a great episode. I'm so glad to be back. I will say that I felt really just like, not only disconnected from writing, but my whole routine has been such a mess since we stopped

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

my, my weeks kind of revolve around us recording this podcast and editing it and promoting it and having something to talk about gives me the inspiration to get up early and write and work. that's

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin

accountability of Buddy does for, for me personally. That's, what our relationship does is really helps keep me on track. So I'm just so happy to be back this new year of, of shitty news and sadness. This is the one like, my family of course included, but this is like something to look forward to every week. So I'm really happy and I hope our listeners are also happy. And I just wanna say we got a lot of really sweet notes from readers over the holiday break, so if you did reach out to us, thank you so much because we read all of them and sent them to each other and it really made for a very happy end of year to hear such nice words from everyone out there who listens. So please, if you are so inclined, we'd love to hear from you and answer any questions that you have. We love responding to listener questions. If you wanna reach us, you can do so at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. You can follow us at Pen pals pod on all the platforms, TikTok YouTube. If you wanna watch us talk to each other, you can follow me at@krisserin on TikTok and you can follow Kelton@keltonkin on Instagram. Please go do so.

Kelton

And you can read our writing at shangrilogs.substack.com and krisserin.substack.com. Is that right?

Krisserin

anything? Yeah. Yes, that

Kelton

Yeah, but you can go read or backlog.

Krisserin

Of three essays.

Kelton

Follow us all the places. We love to hear from you and we'll see you next week.

Krisserin

Happy

Kelton

Happy writing.

Head Shot

Kelton Wright

Co-host
Head Shot

Krisserin Canary

Co-host
Head Shot

JT Ellison

Guest