Paper Prototypes and Publishing: Vicki Tan's Non-Traditional Book Deal

What happens when a designer walks into a Manhattan publishing office with paper prototypes that look like children's toys? In this episode, Kelton reconnects with Vicki Tan, a former colleague from Headspace turned author, to explore her unconventional path to publishing Ask This Book a Question—an interactive cognitive bias book that defies easy categorization.

Vicki shares how a chance conversation with a friend (who also connected her with an agent) led to an in-person pitch meeting, a two-year pandemic pause, and ultimately a bidding war between major publishers. She reveals why the stories in her book matter more than the science, how her original editor leaving mid-project changed the final product, and why she still doesn't call herself an author. Plus: the upcoming companion card deck, the power of comp titles when your book doesn't fit a genre, and why the most interesting ideas are often the hardest to pitch.

Also in this episode: Kelton starts agent shopping with a 12-person spreadsheet, Krisserin recovers from Miami work travel, and a listener question about repurposing Substack essays for publication.

Links:

• Vicki's website: vickitan.com/book
• Instagram: @vickiheart

Books Vicki Recommended:

• The Paper Menagerie by Ken Liu
• Subtle by Kenya Hara
• Universal Principles of Design by William Lidwell, Kritina Holden, and Jill Butler

Write to us:
officialpenpalspod@gmail.com

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

0:00

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton 0:14

Hi, Krisserin

Krisserin 0:15

Hi, Kelton.

Kelton 0:16

How you doing?

Krisserin 0:17

Well, I just got back from Miami.

Kelton 0:21

Ooh,

Krisserin 0:22

evening,

Kelton 0:23

I'm

Krisserin 0:23

and it was a very long and busy week of work travel and, coming home to chaos.

Kelton 0:30

Well, you look Miami in your vest puffy, what weather

Krisserin 0:37

Let's just,

Kelton 0:37

for?

Krisserin 0:39

this is for my kids' school called me and I need to bring her new shoes. So you just throw on whatever's in the coat closet before running out the door. But the funny thing about. Puffer vest is, I actually got it at the Korean market

Kelton 0:53

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 0:54

in the little shops where they sell printed pants and plastic slippers to the,

Kelton 0:59

it.

Krisserin 0:59

I love it. I mean, it's very eighties and I'm obsessed, but, yeah,

Kelton 1:04

judge.

Krisserin 1:05

what this is.

Kelton 1:06

so.

Krisserin 1:08

I'm jealous. I wish, I wish. Kelton, we have a listener question.

Kelton 1:14

Hit me.

Krisserin 1:15

Okay. And it's kind of for you because I'm not, as in it in the substack world as you are, so this listener question comes from Melissa Hendrickson and she writes, hi ladies. I have a question for the podcast. What are the rules and rules about using your own substack essays for submission somewhere else? Is it considered already published because it is out there in the public world, even if only a hundred people read it or read it? How much modification is needed for it to be different? Attendant, unsolicited versus unsolicited. It's clear the other way around. Contracts for magazine publications say they have rights to your piece for X period of time before you can have it back. But wondering the other direction, it says, this question stems from having friends that read a piece on my substack and say, you should submit to X, Y, Z. It would be great for that magazine. Would love to know your thoughts and hear a bit more of Kelton's process from changing her essays into a memoir and the research. And then she just ends it saying, love the podcast. When you go running with a girlfriend, usually talk about all the things in life, including your kids, sleep and bitching about your husbands and writing. When I run by myself, sometimes I listen to your podcast and it's like I'm running with friends. I'm here for it all.

Kelton 2:27

Uh, I love you, Melissa. the general rule. If you are going for, a contest or a literary magazine, is that published on Substack is considered published because your substack is, it sounds like you have a hundred subscribers. What you could do is just hide it, just unpublish it. They read it, you know, it did what it needed to do, and then take it to market with like, you know, with the new vision of how you would pitch it. In the, the thing is about like an, I don't know what the essay is about, and that would, it would help with my advice, but you are gonna wanna frame it differently for outside magazine than you would for allure. Like, depending on who you wanna pitch and how, so you may wanna make some, edits. You know, a lot of people don't want in the space, don't want a pre written piece. They want you to pitch the idea so you could, pitch it as an idea and just know you have the piece in your back pocket. There are people who don't care. My editor at The Guardian, she, she'll tell me when she likes something I've written and tell me how she wants it adapted for broader publication. But I would say it's like, it's really dependent and if you're worried about it, just unpublish the piece on substack, hide it, you know, make it private. Title it, something different. Because it is so small, I think what they're, you know, they're kind of worried about it, like having lost its luster in a way. Don't do a lot of pitching or sending, I, we've talked about this before where I'm like, I wanna write what I wanna write and I'm gonna publish it how I wanna publish it. In terms of how I'm adapting pieces for the book. I'm not really, I'm using concepts and revisiting anecdotes, but I'm not repurposing essays for the book. I've done that before and I did that 10 plus years ago for, anonymous Asked, which was based on my Date by Numbers blog on Tumblr. And I found that, and that was like what the publisher wanted. They wanted the best essays and a few more, and then when people bought the book, they were irritated that they'd read half of it already. I was like, yeah, that's absolutely fair. Like this isn't amazing for my, my fans. They're like, I've read this essay, thanks. And so I'm not gonna repeat that process for myself. And I also, you know, with sh logs, it's like I've been writing it for four and a half years and my writing has evolved and grown so much by writing twice weekly for that long. That's hundreds and hundreds of essays to narrow in on my craft. And so even if an essay. Like, there's this essay I wrote called, but does it have character about how a house like gets to know you? And the core conceit of that essay is in the book. But I wrote that essay four years ago. And so my ideas around it have evolved and what I wanna say about it has changed and how I write about it is better. So, that's sort of how I'm approaching the, the book.

Krisserin 5:28

Thank you Melissa, so much for writing in and everybody else, if you wanna send us a question or just wanna share, how you're consuming the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. It makes, it makes.

Kelton 5:39

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 5:40

It makes our day. It makes our week actually. So tell me how was your week of writing? I can also hear the fire.

Kelton 5:47

Yeah, you can

Krisserin 5:48

Is that,

Kelton 5:49

crackling, you

Krisserin 5:50

it. Ugh.

Kelton 5:51

you can hear the

Krisserin 5:51

Ugh.

Kelton 5:52

mewing. You know,

Krisserin 5:53

I love it though. It sounds so cozy.

Kelton 5:57

it is

Krisserin 5:58

I'm obsessed. Yeah.

Kelton 6:00

I had a good week. Promised I sent my proposal to my friend has a bestselling memoir for her to review and edit and immediately after I sent it, I knew five things that were wrong with it. You know, it's just like as soon as you know someone else is gonna review your work, you're like, ah, shit.

Krisserin 6:22

Of course,

Kelton 6:22

like very

Krisserin 6:23

actually.

Kelton 6:24

I was like, the chapter summaries don't have enough, narrative drive. And, you know, part of that is that I was like, I don't really know what a lot of the chapters are gonna be about. So I was able to bolster some of those in the meantime. And then I also, yesterday, I think while I was driving, realized that the core conceit of the book hadn't really been written anywhere in the proposal.

Krisserin 6:50

Oh no.

Kelton 6:51

I was like, oh shit. Um, and I had kind

Krisserin 6:55

I can kind of

Kelton 6:56

given

Krisserin 6:56

ally

Kelton 6:56

issues

Krisserin 6:57

issues.

Kelton 6:58

a prologue and that's what this conceit should be.

Krisserin 7:02

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 7:03

To like revisit the prologue and make that chapter one and write out the conceit as the prologue. And I did a little bit of that as soon as I realized it in the car. I voice memoed. As much of the writing as I could.'cause I was like, I have this in my head. I know how this works. I know the premise. And so I, I sent it and I got one exciting piece of piece feedback. this morning already where she was like, attached are you to the title that you have? And I was like, oh, I'm not not attached at all. I've

Krisserin 7:38

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 7:41

to me does not matter. In this particular case, I just want a title that's like, this is what the book is about and we'll sell it. And she was like, I think I have a title for you. And you

Krisserin 7:52

Ooh,

Kelton 7:54

it 10 times in your proposal and you just didn't notice. So I'm like,

Krisserin 8:00

wow.

Kelton 8:00

and I don't know what it is yet, so,'cause that, that conversation happened right before this call and I had to put my phone on do not disturb. So if she said, I don't know. but I also, given how far along I am in the proposal, I allowed myself to do some agent shopping.

Krisserin 8:18

Okay. Alright.

Kelton 8:20

out my agent tracker spreadsheet that you gave me. And I have 12 people in it so far. So

Krisserin 8:29

Amazing.

Kelton 8:31

yeah, I, I mean, you obviously know this quite well, but going through the submission guidelines and it's like no one wants the proposal.

Krisserin 8:41

thing. Oh, you know, want the proposal

Kelton 8:43

people do, but they want this part of it, and they want this part of it, and they

Krisserin 8:47

right?

Kelton 8:47

the body of the email, but this attached and they want this style and in this way, and it's just like my plan moving forward is to actually set a timer for each. Agent proposal that I work on, just, just as like a fun thing, like I'll turn the timer on on my phone as soon as I start working on their submission to see how long it takes to customize the query for every single agent. Just because I wanna report back to you old listeners about long it takes.

Krisserin 9:19

Yeah. Are, are there any specifically that you're super excited about or, you know, do you have like them bunched into like, this would be a dream, these would be great. These would also be good?

Kelton 9:31

They're ranked. Yeah. So

Krisserin 9:32

Yeah.

Kelton 9:33

on the, on the agent sheet. Um, and I've been

Krisserin 9:37

And I've been listening to

Kelton 9:39

London

Krisserin 9:39

of,

Kelton 9:39

Salon podcast, every episode they have with an agent and just hearing

Krisserin 9:44

and just hearing so many of them say like, if the

Kelton 9:46

but it's

Krisserin 9:47

good

Kelton 9:47

for

Krisserin 9:47

not right for

Kelton 9:49

the other agents in the agency. I'm

Krisserin 9:51

mm-hmm.

Kelton 9:52

good to know. Cool,

Krisserin 9:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelton 9:55

I mean, not, you know, that's a pipe dream, but, um, I think it's good to dream at this stage before

Krisserin 10:00

Yeah.

Kelton 10:00

um, pew ped right out of my dreams.

Krisserin 10:04

Yeah, you gotta start at a high place'cause you're, it's, it's only downhill from there.

Kelton 10:08

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 10:10

That, I mean, that's what I did. When I was reaching out to agents, I, there were a couple that I had talked to before that were like, I just don't have bandwidth or this isn't right for me. But there were other agents at the agency, and I was like, would do you mind sharing it with this person? And they were like, sure. No problem. So I do think that happens often.

Kelton 10:30

Yeah. And I, I got a

Krisserin 10:32

got a publisher,

Kelton 10:34

subscription.

Krisserin 10:35

Told me, I would've just given you my login. What's a publisher's marketplace login between friends, you know.

Kelton 10:41

totally. should have said something.

Krisserin 10:43

I'm

Kelton 10:44

only paying by the

Krisserin 10:44

only paying

Kelton 10:45

get the year,

Krisserin 10:46

year. Okay. Well, I, yes, I, same.

Kelton 10:48

yeah,

Krisserin 10:49

And every time it comes through I'm like, why am I paying for this? But I feel like unsubscribing feels like unsubscribing from a dream.

Kelton 10:56

totally. I mean, it's funny though because you have, you only have like a, a year before you know if this sold or not.

Krisserin 11:05

That's true. Hopefully. Hopefully sooner. Yeah.

Kelton 11:08

about what you've been up to with writing.

Krisserin 11:11

Literally nothing.

Kelton 11:13

Cool. I

Krisserin 11:13

Literally.

Kelton 11:15

you know, working.

Krisserin 11:17

Yeah. And the, the sad thing about that is I, I went from the hotel. To the WeWork, to a restaurant, to the hotel every single day. I didn't really, I, I tried to get out to do a little vintage shopping one day because we had a couple hours before dinner and it was nearby the WeWork, where we were. And vintage shopping is my favorite pastime. And, the place I went to was permanently closed, like on Google. It said it was open and I got blisters in my feet for walking there. It was just the saddest, and then I, I got a lift, and on the way home it started raining and I was like, well, that was a big fail. It rained the whole time we were there. We flew in the evening of the National College Football Championship, which was between. The, I know Kelton's eyebrows go up, like Sure. Whatever, whatever that is. I was, I felt the same way. But it was between, I think like Indiana University, the University of Indiana, and, university of Miami, and it was in Miami. So the neighborhood that we were in had a lot of people out, watching the game and a lot of energy and there were people screaming in the night and I'm like sitting in my bed reading my historical romance novel with the ear plugs in,

Kelton 12:28

know, I

Krisserin 12:28

but it was,

Kelton 12:29

to University of Miami. That was one of my top three.

Krisserin 12:33

oh my God, what a different life

Kelton 12:35

you imagine? I was

Krisserin 12:36

would've lived.

Kelton 12:37

I, I mean, I like, I didn't have like a one thing I wanted to do in life, I had four colleges I wanted to go to and a different life path at each of them. I was gonna go to Miami for their conservatory of music, which was at the time amazing. I don't know what it's like now, but I got in and was stoked. I was like, I'm gonna be a Miami party girl. I'm gonna be a backup vocalist. And my dad was like, you're not allowed to go this description alone of what you're going to do. You're not allowed to go.

Krisserin 13:08

That's wild that your parents vetoed that. Do you?'cause my parents didn't, were very not involved in my future planning at all.

Kelton 13:18

my parents could not have been more involved.

Krisserin 13:20

Wow.

Kelton 13:21

I wanted to go to U-U-C-L-A and uh, my mom was like, you're not going there. I'm not letting you

Krisserin 13:27

What the fuck?

Kelton 13:28

And that's partially because my dad had grown up in LA and had been involved in like a lot of violent crime as a bystander. And so my mom just had this image of LA as being the most dangerous place on earth. then I, I got a full ride to Tulane and I wouldn't let myself go because I was like, I'm just gonna party the whole time. Like I know who I am in New Orleans and it's bad so those were the

Krisserin 13:54

You went,

Kelton 13:54

three lives I did not pick.

Krisserin 13:57

I just couldn't conceive of telling my kid they couldn't go to the college that they wanted to go to. Like that would never even enter my brain.

Kelton 14:03

wouldn't even let me apply to NYU.

Krisserin 14:07

Well, I mean that's like$55,000 a year. I would be like, good luck. You get in, you're paying for it,

Kelton 14:13

But like all

Krisserin 14:13

you know?

Kelton 14:13

other schools, I got like half rides and full scholarships too. So it was like,

Krisserin 14:17

Yeah.

Kelton 14:18

you know, they, I didn't even get the chance to see if I could get something at NYU, but it doesn't, it doesn't matter. I had a great college experience and here I

Krisserin 14:26

Where did you go to school

Kelton 14:27

Uh,

Krisserin 14:28

again? North Carolina Chapel Hill. Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. What a different kelton I'd be talking to, if at all. If you'd gone to the many lives of Kelton Wright.

Kelton 14:43

on the track, that I was on, after North Carolina, all the places I stopped led me to LA eventually to work

Krisserin 14:51

yeah.

Kelton 14:52

which is where.

Krisserin 14:53

At New York and, well, first you went to New York anyway. Right?

Kelton 14:57

Oh

Krisserin 14:57

And then you went to la.

Kelton 14:58

I mean there's, there's so many

Krisserin 15:00

So many,

Kelton 15:00

of what my book is about, is

Krisserin 15:02

right?

Kelton 15:03

many

Krisserin 15:04

So many.

Kelton 15:05

But I made it to LA eventually, and that is where our guest, today and I met, Vicki Tan is. The author of Ask This book a question, an interactive cognitive bias book that is so fun and cool. She's a designer and I don't know that she would call herself an author, but she is now and she works at the intersection of systems thinking behavior and self-inquiry. She has a career identity that I really identify with. She's on the designer side. I'm on the writer side, but in the way that we work in the corporate space. We have a lot in common. The book is about better decision making, grounded grounded in science and the wisdom of storytelling. And

Krisserin 15:46

and

Kelton 15:47

on the

Krisserin 15:47

she's

Kelton 15:48

tell us her awesome,

Krisserin 15:49

awesome. Amazing

Kelton 15:50

this book published. That, that kind of blew my mind. So let's

Krisserin 15:55

path's.

Kelton 15:56

I'm ready to talk to Vicki about a, a Choose your own adventure book for decision making. welcome to Pen Pals. It is so nice to see you after all these years.

Vicki 16:12

Same. Thanks for having me.

Kelton 16:13

listeners, I know Vicki from a past working at the meditation app, Headspace, where I was working in content and Vicki was working in design. And I knew you as like a formidable leader and thinker. So it wasn't really hugely surprising when you came out with a book, but I was. Deeply envious. And I'd like, because your book is so interesting to just hear you describe a little bit about how it works to our listeners.

Vicki 16:43

Yeah, of course. And yes, it's so strange that a designer would write a book, not about design. I think it, it confused a lot of people. They were like, so what kind of design is it about? And I was like, decision making. But yeah, it's an interactive book and when I say interactive, we can talk more about that, but it's like a choose your own adventure. Where you, navigate the pages in a non-linear way to answer a question or to help you make a decision. And it's paired with illustration and sort of prompts. But it's really a book about cognitive bias, which a lot of people, it like, it's not like sold or marketed as that on its face.

Kelton 17:24

it's not the sexiest term, but one of the ways you had described it was like mapping the invisible geography of our minds, which I think is a bit sexier. And so te tell me what felt invisible to you that you wanted to make visible, and how does, how does this book do that?

Vicki 17:41

I, I studied cognitive bias. I studied behavioral science to be more, Exact, and it, I just felt like there were a lot of things that I learned. Maybe this is the same for someone who studies medicine or finance, where it's like, how come more people don't know this? And so I felt like I understood a lot of these. Underlying mental, you could call them quirks or you could call them. Habits, is probably the wrong word, but a more colloquial word, that just guide our behavior. If you imagine, grooves in the sand'cause there's grooves in your mind, but imagine the way the water flows along a groove. It felt like those were kind of invisible to, to many people or at least knowing very specifically how they work. And I just wanted to help people see that, like what might be. Kind of in the background influencing their decisions.

Kelton 18:36

I found the book is, I mean, it's very playful. It's, it's very

Vicki 18:40

yeah.

Kelton 18:41

But, it's also confrontational, like you said, it's, it's asking you to, it's, well, it's kind of guiding you to the other side of your thinking to see things you in a way you may not have seen them before. So when you were constructing it, did you think about, like, I don't actually wanna call it the safety of the reader, but did you think about their comfort in the journey while you were putting it together? What do you think is the key to like bringing them to the other side of their thinking?

Vicki 19:11

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, I think that the. The stories of in the book, which end up being the bulk of it, the end is more of a reference and in fact I would say the whole question, I call it a question flow, which feels very designerly. But the whole beginning part is letting people self select or choose into how deep or if they even wanna go in. It's not demanding that you read through and answer prompts and by the end of step 10 or whatever, you know, the decision is made. I think intentionally. It's inviting you to pick it up and put it down and follow where it takes you if that takes you to a place that's uncomfortable, I think that's totally fair. I think the hope is that by the time you got there, you will have felt that you wanted to be there. Um, but yeah, no one has, no one has kind of called it confrontational, but I think that is very accurate. Yeah. Would, when you, when you describe it like that, it reminds me of sometimes people call me quietly confrontational.

Kelton 20:21

girl, same. I feel like we've had that in common.

Vicki 20:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelton 20:26

Alright, so take me back to the original idea. Did this come to you? Was it obvious that you wanted to make a book?'cause it sounds like you made an app to go along with it. What, was your brain, what happened in your brain where you were like, I have a book.

Vicki 20:39

Yeah, no it didn't. Ha Uh, yeah, actually after Headspace, I was really interested in just, you know, Headspace is a place where you feel like you're trying to help people and you end up, you're working at a company. And so I was really interested in helping people with the knowledge that I felt like I deeply, somewhat deeply understood. And so the original idea was just like, one of them was like a sort of rotating wheel that just helped you understand different biases and what their purpose in the world was like, what strategy they achieve for you in your mind. Another one were very simple like paper. Imagine you have a toddler. Imagine a page that you pull or you rotate, or you reveal, and I really wanted it to be like a non-thinking learning experience where you reveal the bias. And so those were the original things I was playing around with after I left Headspace and when I first worked, started working on this project. A friend who, who had also published a book was like, you should turn this into a book, or you should show this to my publisher or my agent. And so I did walk into a very high floor in a New York building with paper prototypes feeling kind of ridiculous. Like, look, they kind of look like the, like I probably have them somewhere, but they were so childish. I was like, I don't know if this is. Okay. But here look at my paper prototypes.

Kelton 22:09

is like a children's book version of this that you could easily put together.

Vicki 22:15

Yeah. Yeah. I think we're already, I mean, maybe leave out the, the morbid death parts.

Kelton 22:20

sure. Although, you know some

Vicki 22:21

Yeah, some kids and death is part of life. Um, you know, a lot of people did confuse it for Children's book when it was in that format, and I think that's also the rationale for the agent wanting to move it more towards a, a written book. So yeah, the long story long is that I, I started off with like just my own kind of fun ex. Exploration of paper engineering and sort of simple explanations. And then when I brought it to the agent, she really liked the concept but not the format. And so the format evolved with her, a couple of times until it reached this final one. So this was like a, I don't wanna say it was a concession, but it was not what I planned, because I'm not a writer.

Kelton 23:08

Yeah. I mean it's such an interesting just hearing you talking about your agent's story because you know, most people that we talk to, if they end up working with an agent, it's because they queried through email. They queried 30 to 70 agents, you know, and they like interviewed them, but you had a friend who had a connection, and you walked into their office. And met them in person

Vicki 23:32

I know.

Kelton 23:32

and this person signed you?

Vicki 23:36

Yeah, just after that meeting, um, and, and you know, I didn't have a proposal, like I've listened to a lot of publishing podcasts as I was trying to learn about this new industry. I listened to a lot of the publishing rodeo, I think it's called and yes, I'm aware that it's a very different process for a lot of people. And yeah, I, I worked with her for years, like because of the pandemic and because of it not catching the first few times like. She signed me with these paper prototypes and maybe good faith in me, I first met my agent, it would've been like before the pandemic, a year before the pandemic. And, we worked on this coming from the movable version. We wanted to come up with a proposal and so she asked me to riff on the format. So we tried like a pocket guide to bias, like something you could pull out and maybe like reference. And I, I remember doing, spreads for each bias, which is, you know, there are still spreads in the book today. But it, she kept coming back to me to say it felt too scientific or like it didn't feel approachable enough for a lay person, and so we took a break in there for at some point she was like, she's so sweet. At some point she was like, I don't think you're getting it. I don't think we're hitting it like you are trying really hard. I can see, but like none of this is good. She didn't use those words and I was like, it, that was when pandemic was just kinda starting up. I remember I had to moved back home to my mom's. I was starting a new job'cause it felt like this wasn't working and so I was like, okay, let me pause. We paused for two years and then I picked it back up when I left that job. And I just kind of had like a, you know, a moment where I was walking around Fort Green Park with my friend Grace, who was trying to quit her job. I was telling her the story of how I quit. I was trying to explain some cognitive biases that may be at play for her decision because she was finding it really hard to quit. And she was like, yeah, yeah. Like, yes, I know, but like it wasn't clicking for her. And it wasn't until I invited her over and I cooked her mapo tofu, which was kind of, I talked about in one of those stories, where she saw how you do it, and having the meal with me and hearing me talk about how this meal unlocked that lifestyle for me after I quit. That was much more compelling to her. So that was the first story I wrote after realizing grace as test subject of one, didn't want me to explain the science, but was compelled by the story.

Kelton 26:26

Oh,

Vicki 26:26

So the rest of the book formed around like, okay, I'm not writing a memoir here. Although it in the middle, it kind of starts to feel like it. How do I like get people to the right

Kelton 26:37

Mm-hmm.

Vicki 26:37

information or wisdom?

Kelton 26:40

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. that's interesting that that's sort of what kicked it off, like a two year gap. And like a conversation with a friend made the whole project legible. So what you like, how did you reach out to your agent? I'm like, I have it. I know what to do. Did you start

Vicki 26:56

I mean, the whole time, she's so great. Like anytime I have a scrap of anything, I'll just send it over before I go too far. So I, I asked her, I didn't even write it. I said, what do you think about this? What if I wrote this? And she was like, write it and write that one story and send it over. And then after I wrote that one, she was like, could you do a few more? And then, and then I was like, maybe. And then we talked about how they could be stories from other people or how someone could. I was like, I don't feel confident in writing. She was like, just get the stories down and we can always hire an editor or hire somebody. And I sort of didn't ask too many details, but the idea of hiring a helper was enough. And so, yeah, I think it, it was honestly, I remember I wrote those three and I thought I could, I could probably scrape together if. Enough to fill it up. And it was funny, like in, in the book, towards the end, there was a few topics that I was really not wanting, about relationships and about family or parenting. I don't know, like I didn't have that information. So it, it ended up being a nice, I don't know, like a nice journaling writing practice forcing function.'cause I've never had to write like that day after day.

Kelton 28:19

And how was the process with an editor and a publisher? Was it easy to

Vicki 28:24

Yeah. That.

Kelton 28:25

up once you and your agent were happy with the result?

Vicki 28:29

Yeah, that was surprising to me. And you'll have to tell me about the experiences you've heard about because as soon as we, she said the proposal was ready, she sent it out. I remember going on a vacation thinking it'll be some months or something. And while I was there, or towards the very end, she called me and she was like, we're getting bids, I think they call them. So there was a few bids or, or something, meetings, I should say with Penguin, a small imprint at Penguin with Simon and Schuster and with, Chronicle in sf. And she was like, they wanna meet. And I was like, great, what do I say? Like, I, I had never even heard of this part. Like my experience in life is interviews, you know? And I was like, was it an interview? And she's like, no, you're gonna, they're gonna try to sell you. I was like, oh. It's great. So again, I remember like taking the train down all the way up to some, who knows where in like uptown New York, so far up. I don't normally go that far. And just walking into, yeah, penguin and Simon and Schuster and them showing me some books. They made them saying this is what we think. It could be this much color, like this format. There was a few people who were like, I really like this, but not this. You could see how it almost felt like I had a script and they were talking about making it into a movie. I mean, not that exciting, but it, I could see that, the editor would play a role in shaping the book.

Kelton 30:00

Yeah. Yeah. Are you happy with how it turned out?

Vicki 30:04

Uh, so two things happen. The editor that bought my book, and I hear this happens sometimes. The editor that bought my book, left for a different publishing house. Not soon after, but not at the end either. So I got a new editor and I think that maybe that's never easy. I think that, she just didn't have the same vision for the book. I think my biggest takeaway is they didn't help as much as I thought. I thought they would be, creative directing a little more. They did. They did edit the lines, but they didn't like, help me shape it. So it feels like, you know, my first book, it has that feeling,

Kelton 30:46

Yeah. Yeah.

Vicki 30:48

you know, like your first graphic design project is like a band poster. Imagine that got published. That's how I feel.

Kelton 30:55

I, I do know how that feels. My first book got published in 2014 by a very small imprint, and I, I, it is shoved so far back on my shelf. I don't talk about it. I don't sell it. I'm like, don't, I wrote it

Vicki 31:08

Yeah,

Kelton 31:09

24. We can all just move on.

Vicki 31:13

that's how I feel. And so to have to sell it has been a weird, exercise in this is the best I could do as the person I was at the time, with the time I had.

Kelton 31:23

And it the best you could do then was great. Like the book is really cool. It's very innovative. It's fun to have on the shelf. I'm

Vicki 31:30

Yeah.

Kelton 31:31

forward to preaching it to my toddler in like 10 years.

Vicki 31:35

Yes, yes.

Kelton 31:36

book, you know, do you have a vision for the second?

Vicki 31:41

I don't know if there will be a second. I don't know if I am a, an author like the, I didn't find the process to be that enjoyable. It could have been because it was the book that I learned on, I think I would need to maybe take some writing courses or I didn't feel like I was equipped to do the thing I wanted to, I read a lot of books. Like many people, I, I couldn't. It's that as Ira Glass thing where he's your taste and your skills. There's a huge gap and I think that if I were to write another book, I would need to, increase my writing ability.

Kelton 32:17

That's, that's fair. I feel like I'm constantly doing that, so I absolutely understand it.

Vicki 32:24

Uh,

Kelton 32:25

mean, it's funny.

Vicki 32:26

same with the same with the drawing as well?

Kelton 32:28

It is funny you mentioned that thing about author,'cause I was gonna ask, was there like a moment when you had to like,'cause you had like a, you had book events, did you have to claim being an author like I am author Vicki Tan. Welcome to my book event.

Vicki 32:44

I did always say I am designer Vicki Tan. I wanted it to be clear that like I'm a designer and my goal here was to try to make it easier to learn or use cognitive bias, which is what designers do, and if the medium happened to be writing stories or illustrations or visuals. Okay. And what I, where, when I do that, otherwise, the medium happens to be like UI elements or digital experiences. But I, I think that framing really helped me, let go a little bit of being compared to a literary book writer, a literary author or something like that.

Kelton 33:26

Yeah, it's a different genre.

Vicki 33:28

Yeah.

Kelton 33:29

vibe. I mean, did publishing this book alter your relationship with your own work as a designer?

Vicki 33:35

I mean, I think it, I've never felt like a capital D designer, probably because I did not study design, capital D designer, meaning just like a traditionally trained designer. And I think it, I think it may be confirmed to me that like I am a generalist, you know, um, who is interested in, let's say, thinking about stuff like this or solving problems like with whatever format or tools are available. I think there was that like loosening of like my, or however I define designer, as like my, I don't know, I don't wanna say identity, but as my, it's a little more than a job, but yeah, how I see the world sometimes.

Kelton 34:23

I mean, it sort of moves you into portfolio career status, where now you're like an author and a speaker, and a designer and a researcher, and

Vicki 34:32

Yeah.

Kelton 34:32

you're just a thinker.

Vicki 34:36

Is that it does feel, it like confused it a little bit now when people are like, what, what is your specialty? But I will say, to answer your question, it did make me feel more equipped, if there's another idea or project I wanted to do. If there's a different project I'm thinking of doing. I think it did make me feel like, okay, i'll, I can try that. I can probably do that. Maybe

Kelton 35:01

Okay.

Vicki 35:01

like it. It feels like I don't have to. I think what happens is when you develop a career in one thing, it feels like you have to continue along that path. And I think what it felt like to me after this is that I could do another Zig or another zag.

Kelton 35:17

I I feel like you were already so good at zigging and zagging. You know, that was my perception and obviously how we treat our own careers is, is very different than that. And we have such an internal lens to how they function. you mentioned to me before we started this that you were working on a branch of this project. Are you allowed to tell us a little about that?

Vicki 35:38

Yeah, the card deck. Yeah. So actually when they signed the original book, they, I don't know if this is typical, you'll have to tell me they also signed a deck. I think it could have been'cause decks, card decks are, were popular at the time. Like when I walk into Booksmith or. Wherever. Barnes and Noble, even, there's a whole table dedicated to card decks. And so I think maybe because they knew my initial idea was interactive, they offered the deck as the companion. It got pushed a little bit. It was supposed to come out the year after the, the book, but I don't know, just work and life and maybe fatigue happened, but yeah, that's being finalized now. And, it's a companion to the book, but you don't need to have read or have the book to use it. So imagine you've read the book. It's a bit more gentle guided. Pick it up, put it down. Imagine a card game where again, you come to the deck with a question, it is asked. It is called Ask this deck a question, and imagine you come to the deck with a question. It's a little more straightforward in that it asks you to list all of your options for that decision. Kind of rate the importance, and again, there's a flow with visuals. And then from there, depending on the importance of your question, you're drawing one card. If it's like an everyday decision, you're drawing three cards, if it's a bigger decision. I think it's six cards for a life transition and then 12 cards would for if it changes your life story. And so the framing is slightly different. It's a little more straightforward, and then it suggests for the two greater. Importance categories that you do it with a friend or three people, and in the very last category, it specifically asks you to find like a stranger or someone with a different point of view and someone who knows you well. So it's a little more like a game, and then it includes a little more of the science in that. I have brought in those strategies from the original cognitive bias wheel around what different biases do in order or as like a strategy for you to get through your everyday life. So some of them, you can imagine a confirmation bias helps you like, stick with something so you're not constantly changing your perspective or point of view. There's things, there's a lot of biases just around simplifying mental math or helping you make quick calculations, or being overconfident to help you move forward. So the card draws, if you will, are based in different strategies and you're instructed to draw so that you can get a good spread of, if you think of them as cognitive holes or gaps, you're wanting to try to get a good spread for covering those gaps.

Kelton 38:34

I love

Vicki 38:34

And then each card is framed as a question, how might I be doing this or that? And you simply answer them.

Kelton 38:40

It is funny, it's, you've mentioned earlier, that like one side of your audience was like this tarot, astrology side, and this deck really reminds me of how I use tarot and how I recommend people use it. Not as like a predictive fortune teller, but as simply like a behavioral prompt. You know, if you ask

Vicki 38:59

Yeah.

Kelton 38:59

I need guidance this week, I dunno what to do, and you pull I don't know, the three of cups or something. And that three of cups, you look it up and it's like, know, be more invested in your relationships. Reach out to people. And it's not necessarily telling you to do that, but asking you to reflect on what that makes you feel and think when you see that as the description of the card. so I feel like I'm gonna get your deck and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull Tarot and Vicki at once and be like, where are we aligned?

Vicki 39:27

Yes, they will be very, coming from very different ends of the spectrum. I think you will find these probably quietly, more interrogative. I will say, you know, Karen, our old teammate, was helping me draw the icons and I was writing out explanations for some of these and she was like, I feel attacked. She said, I feel called out right now.

Kelton 39:50

That's so great. Oh, I love her.

Vicki 39:52

I know. I know. She's also very dry, so

Kelton 39:56

quite dry. I mean, that's what makes me love a person. So.

Vicki 40:00

Yes, yes, yes.

Kelton 40:02

Imagine someone is sitting on an idea that doesn't really fit neatly into genre or category. Like what would you want them to know? Like they're looking down the barrel of meeting with an agent or, or even just an idea that could be a book, but it doesn't feel like it

Vicki 40:19

Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think those are the, the best ideas, right? I think that for me, I mean what was also important was finding comp titles, right? I didn't know about this before this process, but perhaps your listeners do. I think the idea that it doesn't fit is, at least in my case, was what made it interesting. I think you don't want another one of the same thing. So maybe just thinking of it as the differentiator of what makes you kind of special. But I will say on the other side of it. It is helpful to have something you can describe in, you can describe in short, like an elevator pitch. All the things they tell you about marketing a book are true. I think the one thing I would change if possible or if I were to write another book, would be to start with, or at least run it through. Can I pitch this quickly or easily, or in a compelling way because as you've learned, the way I pitch it is one thing, and you probably got a sense for how the book worked, but then to truly understand its value, you have to kinda go in a couple layers. And I think that makes for maybe a more interesting book. In the long run, one-on-one, but it doesn't make it easy to sell it, and you kind of have to balance those two when you're in this commercial publishing world.

Kelton 41:43

Yeah. Do you remember who you ended up considering comp titles?

Vicki 41:50

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I, because it was, a sort of blend of these three categories. I remember I had comp titles in cognitive science, like thinking like an all over Berkman, like 4,000 weeks or whatever. Or like a, you know, not thinking fast and slow specifically, but something in that genre. And then I had a self-help section, and then there was a whole visual books section of like, illustrated books. That either told the story or like an El Luna crossroads of should and must, um, have you heard, have you seen that book? It's like fully color and Yeah. I kind of want it, that's what I wanted. Fully color, so.

Kelton 42:34

when you do the children's book, I'll, uh, I'm gonna hold my breath for that.

Vicki 42:39

Yes, I should bring that back. You're not the first person to say you. I should still make either the original version or a children's version, so.

Kelton 42:48

you know, we're at that stage where we're just starting to teach, my kid the, the basics of emotions. Like, oh, you're feeling frustrated. This feeling is frustration. You are overwhelmed. You're mad, you know, and it's, you know, it's, but like, you know, once they're a little older and you wanna show them how things work, you know, we have the

Vicki 43:12

Yeah.

Kelton 43:13

things now, and kids are curious. They wanna learn. So I'm gonna

Vicki 43:16

Yeah.

Kelton 43:16

to it and have you back on this podcast in like, another five years.

Vicki 43:21

I'm working on it.

Kelton 43:22

All right, so on the subject of books, I do wanna know just three books that stick with you. They can be all-timers. Anything more recent? It doesn't matter. But

Vicki 43:31

Yes.

Kelton 43:32

got on your shelf?

Vicki 43:35

I really like, sci-fi short stories. I think a lot of people have read the Ted Chang one. So I'm gonna list a, a lesser red favorite. The Ken L series, the Paper Menagerie. He's like, I grabbed them from the shelf here. He's a Chinese American. Author. So I really like that he builds in some of those, just some of those themes. I don't know. I really like, I really like his writing. It's not too sci-fi, as like, uh, Andy Weir or something might be where you're like, okay, I get it. You understand Science. I really like this book. It's called Subtle. Um.

Kelton 44:13

great cover.

Vicki 44:15

Right. It's very subtle. It's by, Kenya Hara. He's like a, I guess I don't know what his actual title is. In my mind he's a Japanese designer, but there's a whole section here on paper. Or just like. There's a lot of meditations on paper and, um, science. Like this is the first circle made, I think. And what's interesting is like there's the Japanese and the,

Kelton 44:42

Oh,

Vicki 44:42

um, English below, so that's always nice. Yeah. And this one just has like, I, I read one of these essays and I wrote a little design talk about it, like how we should be, how we should be. Yeah, thinking about the technology we make. So that was the original writing I did. I think design talks,

Kelton 45:02

Yeah.

Vicki 45:02

And then this one, the, I guess these are technically design books at this point, but the universal principles of design, when I was trying to become a designer before I was one, it was just one of the books I got early on in, in the pile of, you should get these books when you're trying to learn how to be a designer. But what I like is that a lot of these are just cognitive biases. This one says Cathedral Effect, which is in the book, where there's like biophilia or this one contour bias. So I really like that. I mean, design is just understanding. Yeah. I like that It's called Universal Principles of Design, but it's actually science.

Kelton 45:42

I mean, that's, that's pretty up my alley. I love a nonfiction book, much to the chagrin of my local book club. but it's

Vicki 45:49

You are always trying to sneak them in. Yes. What is your suggestion for the next one?

Kelton 45:55

I'm actually looking to suggest one about finance.

Vicki 45:58

Hmm.

Kelton 45:58

love reading about, finance and investing. Right now, it's just been like something that I didn't have any exposure to or knowledge about, until I was like, you know, sign up for your 401k and I was like, what's a

Vicki 46:12

Yeah.

Kelton 46:14

You

Vicki 46:14

Yeah, yeah.

Kelton 46:15

and most of my book club here is, a great deal younger than me. They're all like about a decade younger. And so I'm like, girl, you are at the right time. You are at the right

Vicki 46:25

Yep.

Kelton 46:25

your life. So

Vicki 46:27

Yes.

Kelton 46:28

that will resonate with them, but isn't too hokey or too niche. So if you have any recommendations in that

Vicki 46:34

Hmm.

Kelton 46:35

I'm doing a little pre-reading right now.

Vicki 46:38

I'll have to think about that.

Kelton 46:40

book

Vicki 46:40

Um.

Kelton 46:41

that I'm interested in. How to Be a Rich Old Lady by Amanda Holden.

Vicki 46:47

The

Kelton 46:48

so

Vicki 46:48

original

Kelton 46:48

the

Vicki 46:48

lady.

Kelton 46:49

are, are written by men and there's often like a little bit of a, a little bit of an emotional disconnect in those books. And I, I wanted, I really wanted the point to land, so I was going,

Vicki 47:01

Yeah,

Kelton 47:02

for the jugular. But, I'll report back if I find any books in this area that I really love. This one I have

Vicki 47:09

yeah, Please. Amazing. I like the cover and the title. Yeah, it's such a big thing. My mom is secretly really interested in this stuff. And so I feel as a result, I have no knowledge of it. But also I see the benefits of doing that early or like having someone interested in that.'cause it's wow. It's like I'm out here trying to find online coupons and she's out there investing my dividends or something, harvesting my tax losses and you know, all this stuff. And she's like, that's not worth your time. Don't think small. You know what I'm saying? Even though there's such like a, such a thrill when you're like, Ooh, 20% off.

Kelton 47:52

It's not,

Vicki 47:52

Yeah.

Kelton 47:53

Of a dopamine hit than compound interest.

Vicki 47:57

Yes. Yes, exactly.

Kelton 47:59

Vicki, it was so amazing to have you on. Can you tell everyone where they can find you and where they can find your book?

Vicki 48:06

Yes, of course. Please go to your local bookstore and ask them for it. I think that would be the sweetest way to support everybody. Otherwise it is online at places. You can go to my website, vicki tan.com/book, or my Instagram. I've sort of posted some of the process behind the scenes, some of the experiments I did. Yeah, and just fun side projects like Risso printing, some bookmarks and things like that. https://www.instagram.com/vickiheart, why did I say instagram.com?

Kelton 48:40

Just in case people are web browsing.

Vicki 48:44

Just in case they've deleted Instagram off their phone and they have to visit on the web. Vicky Heart, heart liked the shape, but we'll link it, we'll link it in the podcast notes.

Kelton 48:54

Will be. Alright, Vicki, this was awesome. Thank you for taking us down a non-traditional path of publishing. Everyone you should pick up a copy of, ask this book a question. It is a delight, and it will help, balance out your tarot readings for the week.

Vicki 49:09

Yes, and I will be sure to send you the card deck, next year when it comes back from Malaysia.

Kelton 49:14

Amazing. All right. Thank you so much, Vicki.

Vicki 49:17

Thanks, Kelton.

Krisserin 49:21

Wow, what an incredible interview. I am. I'm so sad to have missed it and, since I was in Miami, but wow. I, I feel like there's a lot of overlap between what Vicki writes about and like what we do every day in our, in our lives, in our careers. So I'm, and also unfortunately our paths didn't cross, during our tenure at Headspace, but a lot of great people came out of that company. So

Kelton 49:46

Yeah,

Krisserin 49:46

excited that, we get to celebrate another Headspace author.

Kelton 49:51

yeah, yeah. And hopefully we are hot on her tails.

Krisserin 49:55

Yes.

Kelton 49:57

it did, it was fun listening to kind of another unique path of someone who didn't necessarily, didn't query, and didn't have a, you know, like a, a normal structure to their book. You know, she came in with like interactive printouts. So just a testament to, if you have kind of a interesting idea, like let the idea be interesting.

Krisserin 50:17

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Kelton 50:19

Do you have

Krisserin 50:19

All right. Well.

Kelton 50:20

goals this week?

Krisserin 50:22

Oh God. I have to, I have to, I have to. I have a week to submit my grad school application.

Kelton 50:30

Oh,

Krisserin 50:31

I gotta do that. I gotta do that. by the time we have spoken next week, I will have submitted my grad school application, so that will be done. And then, I mean, that's really like the biggest thing that I need to focus on. Outside of that, I don't really have anything else. My meeting with my agent got moved to mid Feb and we are now planning to go on submission end of Feb, like Feb 24. Iactually like sent me a new calendar invite with like on submission. February 24th. So that gives us a little, it gives me a little bit more time and space, from the book, from the second book. And yeah, so that's like my big thing. I just gotta submit this application. I did publish. I will say, I know we didn't talk about it at the top, but I did publish a Substack essay last week. Finally.

Kelton 51:16

I

Krisserin 51:16

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So maybe a soft goal would be like thinking about what I wanna write about next, but that's really it. What about you?

Kelton 51:25

I will be reviewing feedback on the proposal, and I don't. I don't know how long that will take. I am gonna say loosely that like I have probably two weeks left of work on it. I just know I need to make the, the chapter summaries stronger, and get that prologue and first chapter kind of switched around and fixed up. And then, and then I will start querying. I have really felt this week kind of like irritated that I have to write the newsletter. So we'll see how that goes. And also, it's my last week of selling out the, the winter practice of the Rewilding. There's two spots left as of this recording, so get'em, get'em, grab'em, and get your, intuition tuned for the winter season. It should be witchy and fun and reflective, and I know some people have written to me, worried that they're not writers. for the class. And I just wanna say, this class is not about, it's not that kind of writing, it's reflection, it's journaling, it's self investigation. It is not like preparing a piece to be published or even shared. This is more about internal work than it is about, words and things like that. So in case that was on your mind, I would love to have you in the class. There's also still one scholarship spot available, so just write to me if you're like, I can't afford it, and we'll work it out. That's it though. Finish up this proposal.

Krisserin 52:53

Great.

Kelton 52:54

Yeah.

Krisserin 52:54

How's that work going?

Kelton 52:57

Oh, you know, work. Uh, I,

Krisserin 53:02

your survival job going?

Kelton 53:03

my survival, my one, my one remaining client is really good. I did get like a patch client that doesn't pay as much, but it's with people I've worked with before and so I'm

Krisserin 53:14

Okay.

Kelton 53:14

with them and I really like them. And it's on something I know nothing about. So I get to learn a lot about. way outta my zone. But that's sort of what I love

Krisserin 53:25

That's.

Kelton 53:26

making really challenging concepts, easy to digest. So, it, I have a really challenging concept ahead of me. And then, you know, something really magical for me with that core client. I told them, I was like, I have more bandwidth coming up if you need me. And two of the people on my team were fully remote. And they're, they're going on maternity leave and I had no idea they were even pregnant. One's going out in May and one's going out in July, and they were like, we'd like you to do some coverage for them. So

Krisserin 53:58

Amazing.

Kelton 53:59

Was like, what a blessing. After I was robbed in my own maternity leave be able to like, step in for someone else's and like, you know, make some extra cash. So I

Krisserin 54:10

Yeah.

Kelton 54:11

to just embrace, like having a little bit of free time to work on the proposal and know that we have enough. have enough to pay our bills and I can just

Krisserin 54:18

Amazing. That's good karma.

Kelton 54:21

Yeah,

Krisserin 54:23

And how's woods? Is he sleeping?

Kelton 54:26

no.

Krisserin 54:26

He's healthy,

Kelton 54:27

He's, well, he's healthy, but he's not sleeping though.

Krisserin 54:30

Oh baby.

Kelton 54:31

night is a, a nightmare. Yeah, every night is just worse than the last. I like, I, whatever, you know, it is just like, parts of parenting are hard and you just move through'em and deal with it, so. I will let you know that we have started reading a lot of books on weaning. So Woods

Krisserin 54:49

Okay.

Kelton 54:49

to embrace the concept. One of the books is called Booby Moon and he loves it. Yeah.

Krisserin 54:57

Booby Moon.

Kelton 54:58

Moon.

Krisserin 54:58

a kid's book?

Kelton 54:59

kids' books. Yeah,

Krisserin 55:01

Oh, I thought they were books for you.

Kelton 55:04

they're for wood so that he like starts to understand what's about to happen.

Krisserin 55:08

Interesting. That's you're So I literally was like, and we're done. I didn't, well, to be fair, Ren was done on her own. She was like, I'm. I'm good on the boobs. Thanks. Which is crazy now because as a 7-year-old she's like, boob, you've got boobs. Was this enthusiasm six years ago. You know, now you care. Now you care. But she's also at that stage where she's putting on my shoes and walking around the house. It's really cute.

Kelton 55:34

I love that.

Krisserin 55:35

So, yeah. Yeah. It's been, it's been sweet. Alright, well I hope everyone has a productive week of writing. You know how to reach us if you wanna send us a nice note. Do so at official Pen pals pod@gmail.com. Follow us on all the platforms. You know, we're at Pen Pals Pod on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube. I am on TikTok at Krisserin Kelton is on TikTok at Kelton Wright.

Kelton 56:03

I'm on TikTok as Kelton Wrights. I'm on Instagram as Kelton Wrights and Kelton Kin and like we. We will talk about Instagram next week. I

Krisserin 56:11

I was gonna say,'cause I'm like, Hmm.

Kelton 56:13

I have some thoughts. I have some problems.

Krisserin 56:15

Okay.

Kelton 56:16

And also like please grab those last couple spots in the rewilding. You can do so at kelton wright.com/rewilding. I would love to have you there if you're interested in that scholarship spot to shoot me a note at keltonWright@gmail.com. read my writing@shangrilogs.substack.com. Read Krisserin's writing at krisserin.substack.com. Am I missing anything?

Krisserin 56:37

You got it.

Kelton 56:38

Happy

Krisserin 56:39

next week, happy writing.