Mark Sarvas on Writing Novels That Can't Be Ignored

Krisserin panics her way through a grad school application (wrong link, wrong deadline, wrong page numbers), while Kelton enters the querying trenches—19 Google Docs open, three agents contacted, and the immediate certainty that something went wrong. But the real treat this week is their interview with Mark Sarvas, award-winning author of Memento Park and Harry, Revised, Krisserin's longtime teacher and mentor from the UCLA Extension Writers Program.

Mark shares the full arc of his writing journey—from burnt-out screenwriter to literary blogger with 50,000 daily readers to novelist who didn't publish until 44. He talks about the "non-recurring phenomenon" of finding his agent Simon Lipskar at Writer's House, why he did eight full drafts of his first novel before sending a single query, and the love-match quality of the right agent relationship. The conversation digs into the changing landscape of publishing, including the rise of ghosting culture that's infected even longtime editor-agent relationships, and why platform obsession is the wrong focus for fiction writers—citing his former student Miranda Heller, whose debut The Paper Palace became a number one New York Times bestseller without any social media presence.

Mark gets practical about what writers should invest in (build your library first, always), the hierarchy of residencies from $500-a-week cabins to fully funded month-long stays in France, and the writing retreat he runs on the Monterey Peninsula with his partner Jennifer's literary organization, To the Lighthouse. He explains his workshop philosophy—why the day your work gets critiqued is the least important day, why "I wanted" is a banned phrase in his classroom, and why you should submit your weakest chapter, not your strongest.

Plus: Kelton gets feedback from a well-connected friend that splinters her querying path, Mark reveals he's working on a historical novel with multiple POVs (a deliberate challenge after three first-person books), and both hosts celebrate the rare achievement of actually completing their weekly goals.

Learn more about Mark Sarvas:
Website: marksarvas.com
Blue Sky: marksarvas.bsky.social
Newsletter: The Eternal Recurrence
2026 Fiction Writing Retreat with Mark Sarvas, To the Lighthouse: https://www.tothelighthouse.net/retreats

Books by Mark Sarvas:
MEMENTO PARK (FSG)
HARRY, REVISED (Bloomsbury)
@UGMAN (ITNA Press)

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

0:00

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton 0:14

Hi, Krisserin,

Krisserin 0:15

Hi, Kelton.

Kelton 0:16

how you doing?

Krisserin 0:17

I'm good. I feel like you and I did really well this week.

Kelton 0:21

Yeah, I mean, you know, listeners, obviously Krisserin and I, talk to each other throughout the week, have some updates.

Krisserin 0:30

I.

Kelton 0:30

If we have really good updates. We are just like vague. We'll be like, I'm not telling you until the podcast, but.

Krisserin 0:36

true. When they're really good, we, we saved them so we can get the live reaction,

Kelton 0:40

Yeah, but this

Krisserin 0:42

so nothing too exciting.

Kelton 0:43

constant texting.

Krisserin 0:45

Yes, it was. So I am good. I feel like I set out what I needed to do, not without a little bit of panic. So, the original deadline for my grad school application, and on the website it still says this is Feb, was February 1st.

Kelton 1:03

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:04

Which coincidentally was a Sunday, and of course I was like, let me wait until the last second to finish my essay and upload it. That's not af. I mean, this is after, by the way, I had my husband read it and he left the rudest comments on it.

Kelton 1:21

Yeah, Krisserin screenshotted his comments and sent them to me and I was, uh, affected by them.

Krisserin 1:30

He doesn't pull any punches, you know, it's that Eastern European realism. And I told him, I'm never asking you for feedback on anything ever again.

Kelton 1:39

he does is throw punches in his feedback. It was brutal.

Krisserin 1:44

Yeah. And then I was. I had a friend, I, I saw a lot of friends this weekend from college, which was really nice, but I was showing a friend of mine and she was like, I don't think you understand voice and style of a writer. And I was like, thank you, because he, he just wasn't following. But anyhow, I did spend time fixing up my essay up until the last second, and then I went to go upload it and the website is kind of funky and I panicked and I tried to reset my password and they were like this user doesn't exist. And then I really panicked because all of my transcripts and my recommendation letter and my applications all under this one pin. And so I did what they told me not to do, which was start a new application and then I called the school and then I emailed the director all all to find out that I was just clicking the wrong link the whole time. So on Monday I get this email and this call from Veronica Busante, who I spoke to at AWP last year. And, she was like, I'm so sorry that things weren't working, and I just wanted to be like, don't have your application deadline on a Sunday when the office is closed. Do you have a lot of really, panicky people like me who obviously don't. Actually, that's one thing. As an aside, as I was about to upload, I reread everything just to make sure, and I like put the page numbers in the wrong location. So I had to redo all of those because God knows I'm a rule follower. That's the worst. And you just like slightly fuck up the formatting and they're like, Nope, disqualified.

Kelton 3:25

Yeah.

Krisserin 3:25

anyway, it was a bit of a stress bucket Sunday of my own making. But I did it. I uploaded it, and then when Veronica called me, yeah, when Veronica called me, she's like, by the way, the deadline's the 15th. I was like, okay, well, it's done.

Kelton 3:40

were you like, it says the first on the website.

Krisserin 3:43

Yeah. And she's like, yeah, I know I, there's a bug on the website, but, we had a nice little chat. I said, do you remember me? And she's like, yeah, I remember you, and I'm so excited to read your application. And she sent me a nice note with the actual, like, head of the program to say thank you for submitting it. We got your application and then, which was nice. And they're, basically they said it would take two weeks, but they're gonna be at AWP in, I think that's like March 4th through seventh. And so after that, I should know.

Kelton 4:16

That's really exciting.

Krisserin 4:18

Super exciting.

Kelton 4:19

Ugh.

Krisserin 4:20

Yeah.

Kelton 4:21

we're both just waiting. I have similar vibe of my week, obviously. I was querying agents this week and like, golly, it's like applying to grad school once a day.'cause you're like, what format do you want this in? How do I submit it? What are the rules? And the rules are so, so individual to each agency and of, of course they are, but you know, it's like. It does feel a little like when you take a test in high school and underneath like the, in the instructions. It's like if you mark every answer as C, you'll get a hundred percent. It like, gives it away in the instructions that no one reads, you know,

Krisserin 5:03

Yeah.

Kelton 5:04

it just feels like they, there's like these little items throughout the websites where they're like, oh, and by the way, I won't read it unless this person is CC'd. Or

Krisserin 5:13

Yeah,

Kelton 5:14

be read unless it's, in Cambria, but this page

Krisserin 5:18

cam.

Kelton 5:19

be times new Rome and double space and you're just like, oh my, oh my God. Oh my God. And so I have 19 Google docs open of different ways that I've built my query, and I will say it did successfully query three people, but it took an hour and a half to query three people. I just had that feeling immediately after querying all of them that I was like, I did something wrong. Something's

Krisserin 5:43

Yeah,

Kelton 5:44

up about the

Krisserin 5:45

I know.

Kelton 5:45

And I

Krisserin 5:46

I know.

Kelton 5:47

because it was, you have that like, it's just an email you have to send in. I was like, don't reread it. Just let it go. Like,'cause it's worse if you follow up with some reason. And I was like, you took your time, you read the instructions, you did everything in your power to get it right. So just relax and have, have some faith in yourself.

Krisserin 6:07

Yeah, I know.

Kelton 6:09

But it really, uh, wow. It, it took up a lot of the wind out of me.

Krisserin 6:14

Yeah.'cause it's just like logistical stuff and that's why I freaked out about mine'cause I was like, wait, let me just double, triple, quadruple check.'cause you don't wanna get dinged on a technicality. That's the worst.

Kelton 6:25

Totally, totally.

Krisserin 6:27

so it's like very stress making. And I know you and I both take these things very seriously. Very close attention to detail perfectionism and so that it does make it stressful. But then I will say that you start to kind of, um. Flub it a little bit. As you get to your 15th query, you're like, fuck it.

Kelton 6:46

I'm sure

Krisserin 6:47

You just can't care that much about all of them. It's too, too hard.

Kelton 6:52

I mentioned to you, before we hit record that I was talking to a friend of mine who I didn't know was so knee deep in publishing and we got into a conversation on Instagram DM last night about querying and agents and, and she's incredibly well connected, and she She. to take a look at my proposal and I sent it to her this morning and she immediately had some really smart feedback and I was like, Ooh. But I've already started, and so now I feel like my path is splintering, where there's gonna be a version of this proposal that I send out, like under a different title with a different query letter, and it's like, but I already sh like shot my shot,

Krisserin 7:37

Got your shot. I don't know. I was like,

Kelton 7:40

with three people who I really respect and, and, and wanna work with. And yeah, it just is like, it never stops being stressful.

Krisserin 7:50

no, it's, and it's so true because when you start with your top agents, but as you go through the querying process, you learn things and things change, and so you're kind of like, shit, I wish I had this query for that agent that I already queried. I remember, yeah, I remember I, went back and like re-edited the book again. Had read through what I sent to these other agents and I was like, oh my God, I can't believe I sent them this. This is horrible, but it's a learning process and you know

Kelton 8:27

And like just the websites are all like, you'll heal back in two to three months if you hear at all.

Krisserin 8:32

at all. Yeah.

Kelton 8:33

Um, Which I understand, like I used to be a managing editor and were just so many pitches, and those were short pitches. Those were like three paragraphs, you know, and you were like, I just can't reply to all of these. And so it makes sense with proposals that, you know, they're like. Documents, that you can't, you can't get through'em all. And No. It's also, you know, you don't wanna spend your day giving nasty feedback because you don't even wanna be gentle in it. Like, sorry, sorry. You know, it's like, it's a form submissions saves, um, some ache for

Krisserin 9:07

Yeah.

Kelton 9:08

They're people.

Krisserin 9:09

Yeah,

Kelton 9:10

And, uh, yeah, it's just like on my query tracker, knowing okay, I queried January 29th,

Krisserin 9:16

I know.

Kelton 9:16

wait to hear by April.

Krisserin 9:18

I know.

Kelton 9:19

Um, but,

Krisserin 9:20

It comes faster than you think though.

Kelton 9:22

I am sure it will, but also, you know, I'm, I am, I am hopeful that the agent who reached out will be interested. So you never know and like it does, as I put myself out there and say, I'm querying on social media and in Substack there have been multiple people who are like, oh, I'm connected to this person. Want me to put you in touch? Oh, I know this person. Oh, I have an agent. You wanna talk to'em? And I'm like,

Krisserin 9:46

Oh, I am an agent and I.

Kelton 9:48

Oh, I am an agent. Yeah, we have an agent listening guys.

Krisserin 9:53

We're gonna have to have Lauren on the podcast.

Kelton 9:55

Hi, Lauren. Um, so yeah, it's just, uh, it, it, uh, golly, getting all your ducks in a row, man. But I did it. I queried three agents. That's what we're supposed to say.

Krisserin 10:05

Yeah.

Kelton 10:06

queried three agents, so the book is moving in that direction, and it, and it felt really, really cool to do. So to be like moving into that next step of creation.

Krisserin 10:16

Well, I think that's a, it's a really good segue to talk about our guest that is on the podcast today, because we are gonna talk about agents and querying the good, the bad, the ugly, and the mistakes that a lot of us make early on. Before I do our little intro, I think we should celebrate the fact that we both completed our goals this week, which I don't know if we've done that in a while.

Kelton 10:41

I

Krisserin 10:41

So you,

Kelton 10:41

been a really long time since we actually both completed them. So yay

Krisserin 10:46

yay.

Kelton 10:48

Yay.

Krisserin 10:49

All right. Well, listeners, we have quite a treat on the podcast for you this week. If you've been listening for any length of time, I'm sure you've heard me talk about my teacher and mentor, Mark Sarvas, who I met through the UCLA extension program. And we have the delight, and the joy of chatting with him today and hearing his words of wisdom, which I'm sure will be many. So, Mark Sarvas is if you, if you didn't know, he's the award. Winning author of novels, man, memento Park, and Harry Revised. Memento Park is the winner of the 2019 American Book Award and the 2019 American Jewish library Association Fiction Award. It was a finalist for the Sammy Rohr Prize for Jewish Literature. It was shortlisted for the JQ Wingate Literary Prize and long listed for the Sophie Brody medal. His debut novel Harry Revised, was published in more than a dozen countries around the world earning raves from Le Monde to the Australian. Memento Park was published by FSG, by the way, and Harry revised by bloomsbury. So these are big publishers that published his novels. Yeah, so as I said, he teaches, advanced novel writing in the UCLA Extension Writers Program, which is well Worth Your Money with Mark. We're gonna talk about workshops and what makes a good workshop with him later. He holds an MFA in creative writing and Literature from Bennington College. He lives in Monterey, on the Monterey Peninsula. It can be found on Blue Sky and he maintains an irregular newsletter called The Eternal Recurrence. So, a fun fact about Marcus. He was kind of one of the first, you know, build a platform, get an agent. Writers back in like 2008, he had a blog and that had quite a few readers. We're gonna talk about that as well. And it, it definitely paved the way for him to publish. So he was a trailblazer back was like almost 20 years ago. So, listeners without further ado, Mark

Mark Sarvas 12:49

I consent.

Krisserin 12:50

You consent,

Mark Sarvas 12:51

consent.

Krisserin 12:51

you can you consent to the interview.

Mark Sarvas 12:53

I do, I do.

Krisserin 12:56

All right, listeners, I'm so excited to welcome Sarvas to the podcast. If you have been a listener for any length of time, you've probably heard me mention his name because he is not only my favorite teacher, but also a mentor and a friend. Mark is the author of several novels. I ha I found two of them. I couldn't find Harry Revised. I was looking all over for it. It is somewhere in my house. So Harry, Revised, Memento Park and then I was gonna ask you,'cause I always thought this was Ugman, but, but then when I read the beginning of it, is it an Eugene man? Because it's based on.

Mark Sarvas 13:32

I call him ug man. Yes. So Ug

Krisserin 13:35

Okay. Yeah, I like that it kind of lends to like a caveman identity for him as well. It works on multiple levels. So yeah, mark has been my teacher for quite a long time. I think the first class I ever took with you was in 2013, so we're talking

Mark Sarvas 13:53

Wow.

Krisserin 13:53

13 years. It's been a long time.

Mark Sarvas 13:56

and I haven't alienated you yet. That's great. So,

Krisserin 14:00

No, not at all. But I feel like I do know a little bit about your origin story, the fact that you had this blog, the elegant variation, and kind of helps you get to publishing your first book, Harry Revised. But I would love to hear a little bit about, you know, how it all went down and how you became a writer and how you found your agent and just your path to publishing.

Mark Sarvas 14:25

gosh, the, the full origin story, I will try to give a semi abbreviated version so that I don't our whole hour, just wandering through that. But I actually, you know, I started out as a screenwriter for many years and I moved to LA as a screenwriter and was one of those who, you know, sold some things and options and things. Nothing ever got produced. And after one particularly horrible meeting with a producer for whom I was writing his passion project, I called my agent and said, yeah, I'm not, I'm not doing this anymore. And returned to really my, my first love, which was writing fiction. And I launched my blog, the, the elegant variation now, sadly deceased and I don't, I imagine your readers will know what blogs are. That almost feels like ancient internet history at this point. But, but it was, I I fond of joking it was the, the one time in my life I was in the right place at the right time and blogs were becoming a thing and book blogs in particular had the attention readers and the press and an alternative to, you know, mainstream book reviews and, and all that. And, and I had a little niche of sorts'cause I was writing about Los Angeles and Los Angeles literary scene. Most of the book blogs that existed at that moment were very Brooklyn and New York centric. And I was also writing about, think some then obscure European writers who I really loved, who I hadn't seen in the discussion. So, you know, it was very organic. It was really just for fun. There was no kind of scheming or, oh, I'm gonna create a blog to have a platform. So I, you know, that sort of thinking didn't really even exist. Then. It was some cool people on the internet having a fun conversation and I elbowed my, my way in and around that same time I started writing my first novel. And, you know, I, I did this relatively late in my life compared to some, I was 38 I started seriously getting into writing Harry. And I was 44 by the time it was published. If you've ever read William Goldman's great book about screenwriting adventures in the screen trade, he is a very formulation that he uses. He would talk about how studio executives would refer to something as a, a non-recurring phenomenon. know, it was a movie that was successful, but they couldn't explain why it wasn't, you know, part of a established IP or a franchise. And my route to finding an agent was definitely a non-recurring phenomenon because, so it's not something your listeners could easily reproduce. At the height of my blog, I had, 50,000 readers a day coming in. Uh, I

Krisserin 17:13

That's,

Mark Sarvas 17:13

It

Krisserin 17:14

that's a lot of readers.

Mark Sarvas 17:16

It was crazy. It was, it was insane. You know, I was often quoted in the newspapers. I would break occasional stories and, and then newspapers would pick them up. But I also, you know, obviously got very plugged in with the publicists at the various publishing houses. And then even editors, editors who would begin to reach out to me about writers they thought I would like. So, you know, there, there were definitely these relationships forming. I was invited to book reviews for the New York Times book review, the resulting that my name was out there. And so, really, you know, I went through the process like anybody else does. I very painstakingly worked on a first draft, which we could talk about later. We can talk about now, but. And I teach this to my students. I did eight full drafts of the book before I sent it out. So, I mean, you could bounce a, a quarter off the bedsheet. It was that tight and polished and, and ready to go. So when I sent the queries, agents knew who I was and that was like the only advantage that I had. I sort of got to cut the line a little bit. They saw my name in the inbox, like, oh, let me take a look at this. But, you know, nobody was gonna take on a book they didn't like just because I was a blogger. So, I had a very short list of agents to start, on which the, the agent who I signed with and who is my agent to this day, responded very quickly this really places it in time. You know, I was sending it out. I think it was 2007. Is that right? Gosh, my, my memory may, maybe it was earlier than that. But I, there was another agent who had asked me, he was interested, a well-known older agent. And he, asked me to mail him the first 50 pages. So print out, put 50 pages in envelope, send it to his office. Simon just asked me, Simon Lipskar, who at writer's house, who is, has been my agent since my first novel, and who I love dearly and will sing his praises today. Said, just send me the whole book as an email attachment. So of course, you know, he read it faster and got back to me quickly. We had a phone call and, it is a little bit like a love match. It's like a first date. It's like falling in love and you know, you have the first date where you're like, yeah, this is a train wreck. This is not my person. And then you have the first date where you just know and that was the kind of call Simon and I had. But I'm old school and I wanted to go to New York and look him in the eye, you know, just to feel he was on the level, which I did. And that was that. And he has been my guy ever since. And taken very good care of a, you know, a literary fiction writer who is not doing much to pay his bills and pay his overhead these days. So very, very grateful for that. So, agent, agent for life, you know.

Krisserin 20:08

You mentioned you did eight drafts of Harry Revised. Is it the same process for every novel that you've worked on? You, you, you work it that much before and when do you send it to Simon or when do you tell him you what? That you're working on something.

Mark Sarvas 20:22

a great question. And, um, no, it's, it's very different now, for a couple of reasons. When you're sending out your first novel and you're looking for an agent, that agent is assuming that they are seeing your absolute best polished everything you are capable of is in that book. Nothing is left on the table. And so that's what I went out with and, my eighth draft was at painstaking sentence by sentence, reading it out loud, just looking at each sentence individually. Is it grammatically correct? Is it interesting? Is it, you know, and ticking it off by the second book, you know. We were married. It's like I don't have to dress up for the first date anymore. So, um, and I think at that point, um, you know, with Simon, I, I do two things with Simon. Um, typically I will send him when I have, when I'm starting something new and I have about, you know, I have about 30 or 40 pages, just send him that to take a look at. And really, he said long ago that his only job at that juncture is to look at it and say, yes, there's a novel in this. Sometimes he gets people and they're fiddling with an idea and he experience and instinct will tell him, you, this doesn't feel like it will sustain a full novel with my second novel Memento Park, I sent it to him. he looks at the voice. He really loved the voice. He was interested in some of the narrative questions that had already popped up. And he said, go. And then he didn't see anything for me for four years because Memento Park took a very long time to write the first draft. That was four years. And even that draft, I did not send him. I did a pretty major reworking of that first draft because as you go further in your writing career, learn more, you know more, you get better, and you develop more, um, confidence in your judgment. I finished that first draft and I knew, okay, here's the three big things that suck right now about this book. Then I'm not gonna show my agent before I, and I went back in and I fixed those. And then it was really, I think I tidied up. That draft a little bit, you know, the pros. So third draft, and that's what I sent him because at that point he doesn't need to see a finished ready to sell project. It is more of a collaboration. And he and I are talking about, okay, where does this book still need to go and, and how do we need to work it out? And so he's always been sort of hands off with me. Doesn't get in the weeds. He told me when I interviewed him that he was a very hands-on agent and that he did do that, but with plenty of his clients. And, I think, you know, we, we joke that we disagree on a lot of fiction stuff that I love he hates and stuff that he loves. I don't. But he says, but we both, but we both agree on the fiction of Mark Sarvas. And so it seems like he trusts, he trusts what I do and he gets it. You know, Aman was such a strange book. It was such a weird ass departure for me. I wrote it fast, it was angry, it was all these kinds of things. I thought, oh God, Simon's gonna just kill me. And he loved it. He read it, he loved it. He got it. He had virtually nothing, you know, to suggest on those initial drafts I had some things I wanted to fix and so I went back in and I did that anyway. But it is, it has been a, a great relationship and I'm very grateful for him.

Krisserin 23:46

I'm not surprised on@Ugman. I feel like it was the catharsis of, of all of us going through the same thing.'cause the book takes place in the last six months of 2019. One of the questions I wanted to ask you is, what do you think@Ugman's doing in February of 2026? Is he still a keyboard warrior?

Mark Sarvas 24:04

Well, I, you know, if, if I said what I really think, I would probably get a knock on my door from unwelcome authorities. So let

Krisserin 24:12

Sure.

Mark Sarvas 24:12

me say this, that I think, you know, one of the, lessons in not Man, is he learns to leave the basement. You know, he learns to step out into the world. So I think he'd be in Minnesota right now, protesting. He would not be, I hope he would not be behind the keyboard anymore, but it is certainly seductive to fall back into that raging, raging place. So, but it's really, you know, man is a cautionary tale about the way that that deforms us, you know, if we give into that. So, which I was absolutely guilty of,

Krisserin 24:45

well, I, I'm curious. I, I feel like I've taken so much of what you've taught me about querying and agents and shared it with people, not only Kelton, but our listeners and other people. And I, the thing that you've always said is don't rush slow down. You only have one opportunity to make a first impression. You need to put your best foot forward. I, but on the other side, Kelton's kind of in, she's just starting to query right now, and she got a DM from a dream agent, just someone who found her on Substack. Messaged her. And so she's kind of, in this really special time where she's trying to figure out what her path is going to be and who she's gonna work with. But she listens to, I forget the name of the podcast. It's a UK based podcast, and they interviewed two different agents. And of course all agents are different. One said, yes, I expect you to have paid for an editor and to actually have this manuscript perfectly in, in the best possible condition it could be before I see it. And the other one was like, absolutely not. But I wonder from your perspective, because you have so many students going through your class, I I, I don't even wanna guess how many students you've taught through UCLA extension. It has to be probably a thousand at this point. Do you find that your experience querying is. How people are querying now. Do you find that it's different that agents behave and act differently? Do you find that they are as involved in the developmental process or are they just kind of letting it pass over their desk before they they go off into submission? I'm curious if you've seen a change. I.

Mark Sarvas 26:24

this is sort of, I think the most interesting question because I thought a lot about, like when you invited me to come on this podcast is that operational field data is 20 years old in a way because I queried once, got my dream agent and have been with him ever since. I'm certain much has changed. You know, plenty's still the same. what I know, I know anecdotally from my students who've gone through it, my girlfriend, you know, when she got her agent and, I'm watching how these things go and I think some things remain the same and some things are, are different. I think that, you know, to tack back for a moment to your UK editors, I think it's a bit, a bit haughty to insist that one has paid an editor. I think on the other side, the, the, the absolutely not camp, I think what any agent will tell you, and if they don't, you should be suspicious of them, is that expect when they get your work that they are getting your most considered work. know? And that doesn't mean. That every now and then an agent will not, be open oh, they, I see something in this work and no, it's not quite ready. And, but this one's not quite letting me go. And so I wanna work with the writer. But that's very rare. It really is, you know? And increasingly so I think, I think the demands of the pipeline and all of that, you know, people are looking for things that feel ready. And it doesn't mean that the book's gonna come in. They're gonna slap the agency jacket on it and just submit An agent will typically still have some things, but, but not, I think, you know, there's not a lot of appetite for major reworking of a book. And this is why, I hear this from a lot of people that they, when they're on submission, they don't get notes. They don't get, you know, they, they get no specifics. They get Well, thank you. We liked the writing, but it's not for our list. And they're like, well, if they like the writing, why don't they rep me? And the truth I tell'em is, well, they probably didn't like the writing as much as they're saying they're being nice. I think what's more important is if they say, if they start to offer feedback, it implies an openness to a kind of ongoing work that a lot of agents just don't, I think have the time for, it's not even the desire for, but it's the time for these are, know, under pressure to deliver, working on commissions and, and, and they've got to find their work. So, what has changed, I think, is ghosting culture, which is just a big fucking drag, but it's, you know, whatever, man, that's, that's where we are now. When we went out with@Ugman, Simon told me that that had really, even infected the world of editors, where editors who he'd worked with for 20 plus years. Just a ghost on a submission. And, and I, I just, I think that, fuck, that's fucked up and that sucks. And sorry

Krisserin 29:23

It's weird. It's like that's a professional relationship That's kind of strange.

Mark Sarvas 29:26

look, man, I kept a list, right? You know who ghosted us and we will not submit to

Krisserin 29:32

Like a man. You have a, you have a list.

Mark Sarvas 29:33

On that one, I do.'cause I'm not gonna submit to that editor again. And these are editors who I

Krisserin 29:37

Yeah.

Mark Sarvas 29:39

you know, they're well known, you'd know their names, but if you can't even bother like a proforma kind of note back, it's like, so I think writers have to navigate, a lot of that kind of, you know, internet age bad habits. I don't, I don't wanna sound like a old fart, but and, and that's, that's something I think that, um, I, it, it just feels harder today. I don't wanna discourage any of your listeners. And I think if you've, you've written your novel and you believe in it, then you've gotta go, go, go. But, but I do think that, um. It's gotten harder. I think that used to say to me that, he likes to, when we put a book on submission he, he would give me little notes, like he said, I like to take away the easy pass. Like if he can see the thing in the book that's gonna give them the easy reason to pass, let's fix that. Let's get that out of there. And, and I think in a way, authors, querying agents have to think about, okay, what's the easy pass? I'm working with one of my former students who's now a private client who's written a really cool, but really tricky to pitch book. And it's one of those books where like, you gotta read it, you gotta give it a chance, but if you just heard the summary, you might not go for it. And so, you know, it's, it's, have a very little window to make an impression. You gotta be sharp, you gotta, you know, grab the attention. And, and it is hard. I would not want to be looking for an agent again at this point in my life. And, and with the way the market. Sitting right now. But, but they are hardworking. You know, I have not yet encountered or heard of a literary agent who is the equivalent of a used car salesman where they're just, you know, trying to move units. They, they're all doing it because they love this stuff. They, they want to be excited about your book. They want to fall in love. And when you look for an agent, you just, gotta fall in love. That's, you know, it's gotta be mutual. I've had Simon turn down, I've sent some people to him, who were already published looking to change agents. And he would read their books and he would say, look, this is great. Someone's gonna sell this, but I'm not in love with it. and it takes too much time and energy to, to out with something that you're not in love with. And so I really tell people try not to take the stuff personally when they pass. It just means, and I feel like they're doing you a favor. Because if they're not in love with you, they shouldn't take the book out. You should wait for the one who just, who just loves it, who gets it, and, and you get the sense like they're gonna move heaven and earth to put this book in front of people.

Krisserin 32:12

I wanna ask you what you think is worth spending money on as a writer, but before I get to that, I'm curious. I'm on TikTok a lot, admitted I've said it. I'm, I'm ashamed of it, but it is my way of like decompressing and I do get a lot of content from writers who are trying to build a platform. You made a joke about it in the beginning, kind of like, I'm gonna build a platform and then I'm gonna get an agent. But I feel like a lot of writers think that that is what they have to do. Having a platform definitely helps. You know, we had, one author on who was an influencer before she published her first book, and she had a huge following and it did definitely help her get an agent. and I'm just wondering if you notice with your students, because you have, you know, new waves of students coming through your classes all the time, who started novel one and progress through novel five? If you feel like the impatience has gotten greater because the content that I see on TikTok, it's like day five of me writing my debut novel. And it's like these people are working on their first drafts.

Mark Sarvas 33:12

Yeah.

Krisserin 33:13

I'm like, you are gonna be doing this for years. It's gonna be like day 1000 of me working on my debut novel. And I just don't, and I don't wanna be mean in the comments, but my heart goes out to them because they're so earnest, right in what they're doing, and it just, I don't think people understand. It's harder to get published and it takes so long,

Mark Sarvas 33:34

Yeah,

Krisserin 33:34

eight drafts

Mark Sarvas 33:35

is. It is a

Krisserin 33:36

to write a book.

Mark Sarvas 33:37

Is a marathon. You know, one of the things that I, I, I tell all my students, and I just had this conversation with someone who is in my private workshop who just finished a first draft of his novel and I said, go and celebrate. Get your wife. Have her take you to somewhere fancy and celebrate. And he was really reluctant because, oh, but it's, it's a mess. And it's a, I said, you must celebrate if the only thing you're gonna celebrate is getting published, then you're gonna have a long dry road for many, many, many years. And you have to celebrate that first draft. You celebrate the draft, you're ready to send to agents. You celebrate the first agent who asks to see your pages. You know, you really have to celebrate those moments because it, it just, it takes a ridiculous long time. Look, I think you're right to be, you know, kind and compassionate. For our, you know, naive young tiktoks. And I think, when I, when I, I'm not on TikTok at all. I look at reels and I

Krisserin 34:31

You, you should not be. You should, you should not be.

Mark Sarvas 34:34

I know, I know, I know. I look at reels, you know, and I imagine, I know some of that

Krisserin 34:38

Mm-hmm.

Mark Sarvas 34:39

over from TikTok, but

Krisserin 34:41

Yeah.

Mark Sarvas 34:41

I see somebody like that, honestly, I just, like, you're gonna find out, like, that's it. You'll, you'll

Krisserin 34:47

God speed.

Mark Sarvas 34:47

Out. You're gonna find out. And so that journey is, is theirs to take. But I think, you know, I think if you are, when you're talking about. The dread P word. You know, if, look, if you're writing nonfiction of a certain kind, then, you know, platform takes on a different relevance because it speaks to authority. What is your authority to be writing on this subject? Not with novels. And I mean, I get it. If you're writing in a genre, like if you're writing hardcore romance or fantasy, and you're kind of very visible in those worlds, you know, that's not unlike sort of what I did, coming up as a blogger. But on the other hand, know, I'll, I'll name drop a little bit for one of my biggest success stories. My, my client, Miranda Heller, who wrote the Paper Palace, not on social media, not a blogger, you know, a a, a grownup writer of, of a certain age like me, wrote her first novel and she just the shit out of it. She just wrote the shit out of it that when it landed on a desk, it was so inarguably good compelling that people didn't care if they're on or not. We'll figure that out later, and that's my answer to that. The platform argument is no if, because I remember when I made the conscious decision to stop posting on the elegant variation, and it was the calculus that I, I could either devote my energies to being an internet personality, or I could devote my energies to becoming a better novelist, and that was a very easy choice for, for me to make when the work is that good. It just speaks for itself. And I think everybody should aspire to their novel being that good, that it is sort of inarguable irrefutable when this hits someone's desk that they're just gonna see, wow, there is, there's something major these pages. And she's a great example, you know, number one, New York Times bestseller became a Reese Witherspoon book. All those kinds of kinds of things. So

Krisserin 36:46

The dream.

Mark Sarvas 36:47

yeah.

Krisserin 36:47

dream.

Mark Sarvas 36:48

A a a dream. Yeah. A dream, you know, it's not the only literary dream, but it is.

Krisserin 36:52

Sure. Sure.

Mark Sarvas 36:54

if, if you offered me, you know, Reese Booker, the Booker Prize, I would take the Booker Prize. So, um, the, the, the dreams can vary, but it is, it's, it's a good dream to have, you know. And

Krisserin 37:05

So in regard,

Mark Sarvas 37:06

that it was not

Krisserin 37:07

yeah.

Mark Sarvas 37:08

it was not Miranda's dream at all, which I think speaks to the way these things happen. It was, that was not on her radar to have that kind of a thing. She, she just believed in this book. She wanted it in the world, and it was, it was a knockout, you know? So I, the, she was the first day she was in class and we workshopped her pages for the first time after class. I told her that it reminded me of James Salter and she burst into tears. You know, it was that, that, that meaningful. So those are the things I think that sustain us in the writing. And it has to be that the passion and the pleasure and the excitement is during the writing. Because after that, man, it, you got no control. It is outta your

Krisserin 37:48

Yeah, it's true.

Mark Sarvas 37:49

you know.

Krisserin 37:50

That's completely true. I'm kind of of that same vein as your, it's Miranda, you said her name. Because I'm just like, if anything happens, great, I just wanna write this book. But there are people out there that like to like, have manifestation boards and I just, I can't do that.

Mark Sarvas 38:06

Yeah.

Krisserin 38:06

Maybe you're a Libra like me. Maybe we're the same in that respect. We just like, we do things a little bit differently.

Mark Sarvas 38:13

I just think you're thinking about the wrong thing. You know? And this is,

Krisserin 38:16

Yeah.

Mark Sarvas 38:17

you know, I used to say to my students, if you're working on your book and you're already compiling your list of dream agents, then you are in trouble because you are giving up important parts of your brain and your processing power to that piece of planning. That has nothing to do, nothing to do with where you are. And so the, this is, I, I know I risk sounding, don't know, like a cranky old fashioned, boring white guy or whatever, but it's just like the work on the page is everything. Everything. And that's where all the energy has to go. And anything that isn't devoted to improving that work, to improving yourself as a writer to, you know, is, is noise and it's, it's not, it is not helping you. I just,

Krisserin 39:06

Les Plesko used to say he allows himself five minutes to dream, and then he got back to work, you know,

Mark Sarvas 39:11

that's,

Krisserin 39:11

I, I liked that. I liked that. Um, but I, I am curious, you know, I obviously, I've written one book without you and every book since I've written with you and have engaged in your editing services, almost like you're a little bit of a, a, a crutch. But I love it. I'm just curious, what do you think is worth spending on when it comes to,

Mark Sarvas 39:34

ask

Krisserin 39:35

as a writer?

Mark Sarvas 39:36

that is a complicated question, right? Because not everybody's means are the same and, you know this about me. We don't talk about these things a lot, but I'm like, I'm kind of a class warrior, you know? And even though I like to stay in fancy hotels and eat Michelin stars, I'm actually always really thinking about these differences in class. And so for, you know, for every example I might offer what you could spend money on, there's also, here's the road for the people who don't have that to spend. So, for example, I think the first, the most important thing, is to build your library. You know, that's, that's where you're gonna learn everything is by reading and thinking about great fiction. Obviously if you don't have a lot of money to buy books, the library is essential. But, but surrounding yourselves with the kind of books you wanna write, the kind of books you wanna learn from, I think is, is, is hugely important. So that's a good use of money. And time. you know, I get asked about MFAs a lot. As you know, I went back and got an MFA after I had published my first two novels, which some, you know, raised some eyebrows. Very un mysterious reason. I wanted to have that degree so that I could teach at a college level, to have that option. I don't know that the financial investment was necessarily worth it for me, you know, in terms of the student loan, but it's fine. I can manage it. Okay. And I can, can live with it. I've had students literally for whom money is no object. Like they can write the check for the tuition and go, and then I say, yeah, go. Because you will be immersed for two years. You have the privilege of thinking about literature and writing and books and have a cohort and yeah, you know, if the money doesn't matter, but if the money does matter, I don't know that anybody should go into debt for, for this kind of thing. You know, I think if you're somebody for whom money is an object, looking at fully funded programs, which are more competitive, but you don't incur the debt, are things to go and then look, I think editing and instruction are, are great uses of your, your money if, if you can't afford it. My, my friend, the, the novelist Marissa Silver, advised me when I was debating whether or not to go to Bennington for my MFA, she said that her father had told her that, should never miss an opportunity to invest in yourself. And I think that was reasonable and it made sense within my financial parameters. I think, you know, if you want to work with a private editor and you can afford it, and there are ranges, right? There are people who charge good deal less than I do. There are people who charge a good deal more than I do and then there are things like the UCLA extension where we met and where you get, you know, a certain level of instruction and that program has really grown and become something I think much more impressive and powerful than it was when I began in 2009. And plug into a cohort, you can find yourself a little workshop. So, but I think, I think one has to, be cognizant about one's financial picture and obligations. And at the same token, you've got your hierarchy of needs and, and what I would say to people, the people who it as writers in my experience, are the people who after they have met that first critical level, know, over our head, food over the table, children not dead, then the next level is of their time, chunk of time is writing, is doing that work devoted to that work. Not on Netflix, not going out with their friends, not doing Pilates. Not none of it. of it waits until that time you commit to the writing is done. I think the same can be said about your financial resources. Like you, you, you figure it out and after you have addressed the things you must address, at remains, what is within reach for you. And there are also a lot of, things like, there's fellowships and grants and, and residencies and things that, that offer opportunities for people who afford it, don't have the means, you know, or marginalized. All those kinds of communities do have ways in. So, it's not a brilliant observation to say money's nice if you got it. if you got it, then go ahead and by all means, avail yourselves of some of these services, that are out there. Although, be careful of the ripoffs'cause there are many. But if you don't have it, there are still ways to, get there to approximate those experiences. But, but it all starts with the books. It all starts with the library,

Kelton 44:24

I like thinking about it, not just as that financial budget, but, a commitment budget.

Mark Sarvas 44:28

yeah.

Kelton 44:28

know, it's like if you have the money to go to an MFA, great. If you don't maybe skip the shopping and the hanging out with friends to like spend that time focusing on your writing. You can employ essentially like a, an at home retreat for a week, or like an intensive writing program for yourself just by setting the restrictions on your calendar.

Mark Sarvas 44:46

That's exactly, exactly. You know, we used to

Kelton 44:50

hard, it's a hard

Mark Sarvas 44:51

It is,

Kelton 44:51

be a writer.

Mark Sarvas 44:52

but, but that's the, yeah. It is a hard commitment. But honestly, you know, like writing novels is hard. It's not easy. You know, people, everybody, you know, there's this notion, oh, everybody has a book in them. Oh, I'm gonna write my novel one day. It's actually very difficult and it requires sustained discipline, commitment, focus, which is why most people don't finish their novels and why lots of people fall away. We used to do. When, when Jennifer and I lived down in la, you know, now I live up in Pacific Grove on the Monterey Peninsula. It's sort of my dream little town. But we would come up here for a writing weekend. There's a little Ben breakfast wasn't too expensive. We'd, we'd go Thursday to Sunday, leave LA at the crack of dawn, come up here right for three days, you know, in the room, in the cafe. We take walks and then we went back and, and the trip was to, devoted to having that writing time. And, and I think that's, you know, really the kind of level of, of commitment that, that it takes. So.

Krisserin 45:51

One question I really wanna ask you, and then I wanna ask you about residencies.'cause I feel like you do a good job of applying and, and attending those. I asked, a prior guest, Lesley Bannatyne about this. I'm really interested in understanding how you improve your craft. What do you do to continually improve your writing?

Mark Sarvas 46:08

A lot of it's gonna come back to reading and who I read and writers who are doing interesting things that influence or inspire me that I feel like I can learn from. But honestly, the truth is that with each novel, I set intentions for myself that I know are outside of what I can do, outside of what I've done before. And I know that I can do, I make it harder each time I introduce new challenges and in solving those challenges, one up new tools. So the novel that I'm writing right now, my fourth different than anything I've ever written before. And my books are all quite different, you know, Simon. Talks about that in his pitch letters as a, as a, a pro. But I think sometimes it is a con as he's trying to figure out how to position and, and sell me. But this novel is, historical, which I've never done. It is multiple third person close points of view, which I've never done. I love first person and that's kind of my thing. And there are some other things that are tricky as hell that I'm not quite sure how I'm going to do. And it is, I always like to say to my students that writing novels is just a daily exercise in problem solving. You know, you sit down every day, what is the problem that is in front of me? I need to bring this character to life. I need to figure out how to convey this emotion. I need to make this scene. it an energy that it lacks, you know, it's problem solving and I think the bigger the problems, the more you have to learn in order to solve them. And so that's, that's really kind of the way I go about that, so.

Kelton 47:48

It's a very athletic approach. You know, it's like you ran your 5K,

Mark Sarvas 47:51

Alright.

Kelton 47:52

going to a 10 k, gonna do the marathon. Signing up for an

Mark Sarvas 47:55

Exactly.

Kelton 47:56

You know, it's like, building on it to accomplish something

Mark Sarvas 47:59

Yeah.

Kelton 48:00

Which I've never really, I've never thought about that in, in challenging yourself beyond novels. I'm working on a nonfiction proposal and Krisserin knows I have a novel in the works, but it's my first novel and so I haven't gotten to this sort of thinking about like, how would I challenge myself beyond this one because I find this first one so challenging.

Mark Sarvas 48:18

the first one it.

Kelton 48:19

still figuring out how to run the marathon.

Mark Sarvas 48:21

Yeah, but, and the first novel is just the proof of concept. In a way, the first novel is telling yourself, I can do this. And there is a lot of confidence that you will get when you finish that. You know what? However, it turns out it's like, okay, I've broken that psychological barrier. I know I can do this. And so the next one doesn't necessarily become easier because each novel has its own problems. And I think they're all first novels in some ways, but you don't have that existential, oh, I don't even know if I can do this at all. Because you've done it once before and that helps. Yeah,

Kelton 48:56

And it very well could be that I find out I don't like running and I just like lifting

Mark Sarvas 49:01

exactly.

Kelton 49:02

turned back to the form of essay.

Mark Sarvas 49:03

Yep.

Kelton 49:04

um, it is interesting to think about it in that way.

Mark Sarvas 49:06

Yeah.

Kelton 49:07

I'm inspired by that, to work on novel two.

Mark Sarvas 49:10

And, and I used to be a cyclist, so I rode centuries. So that, that sort of training model, very resonant, you know, watching each week, the mileage getting longer as I was working up toward that a hundred mile ride. So I think that is a, it's a good observation.

Krisserin 49:27

I'm really interested in your reading life because every time I see you, you post about, I've also been in Mark's home and seen how many books do you have? Your library's

Mark Sarvas 49:36

It's,

Krisserin 49:37

impressive.

Mark Sarvas 49:37

about that. It's, it's, it's probably pushed up to 4,000 now because I have a problem. I just keep buying and, and, and you know, Jennifer will sort of jokingly chi me when the bookshop.org deliveries start arriving and there's, you know, a dozen new books and she points out, you know, my office is filled with my various to read shelves and books I'm reading in progress I just keep getting more and more. in secret, she loves it because suddenly she heard about on the calculation of volume, and of course I have all three. So she was just able to come right in here and grab them. So I think she doesn't really mind that I acquire them at such a furious pace, but I do, I do get them much faster than I, than I read them. So, but yes, it's about 4,000 books of which, you know, 85%, 80% is, is fiction. You know, 75, 80% is fiction and the rest is between, literary criticism, writers biographies and letters, nonfiction essays, some history, philosophy, art, drama, you know, all, all, all the good stuff. But each of those fits into a single bookcase or a portion of a bookcase. And the, the fiction collection, I think now has moved up to 17 Billies and growing. So it just keeps going.

Krisserin 50:57

Amazing. so you're going on a residency in, in March, you're going to France.

Mark Sarvas 51:02

I'm, I'm,

Krisserin 51:03

I feel like you do this at least once a year, if not more. You, you go somewhere fantastic and whittle away at whatever your current work in progress is. How do you find these residencies? What do you get out of them?

Mark Sarvas 51:14

um, yeah, so I, I, I a lot to say about residencies that I hope will be helpful to your listeners because it really was an evolution for me in terms of the, the awesomeness of the residency lemme step back just to say that as, as your listeners think about residencies as with anything else, there's a hierarchy of residencies, right? And there are, maybe I should just say, you know, for those who don't know that a writing residency is a place you apply, there's an application process, and if you're accepted, you get to go to some awesome place that they have and they'll give you a room and meals and sometimes not. And then you get to write for, a week, two weeks, a month that, some of them go many 10 weeks and and beyond. Some of them have a modest copay that as the, you know, you need to pay to go, others pay for your room only, but you have to bring your food, others pay for your room and board, and others still pay for your room and board and travel to get there. And, you know, obviously as, as you go up that chain, they become more competitive, more difficult, et cetera. I had done a couple of, smaller local residencies, There's a great one that I send a lot of my students to, called Doland Mountain Arts, which is down in Temecula. it's. One that, you know, you pay a very modest amount. I think it was like$500 for the week, and I had a full cabin with a grand piano in it to myself and a kitchen and all the rest. and I had done some other smaller ones. And then last year I was accepted to, VCCA, the Virginia center for Creative Arts. and I was originally gonna go for three weeks, and I'm a parent of a teenage kid, and so I had to cut that down to two weeks. and it was kind of a game changer for me. It was, I'd say VCCA also has a modest sort of copay. But it's out in, you know, s. It's not quite completely rural Virginia, but certainly a small, small town area. you have a living quarters with a en suite bathroom, bed and armchair and very civilized. And then you have a separate work studio. what was most important, that kind of blew my mind, it's so, it sounds so trivial, is that all your meals are handled. So you come out in the morning, there's a breakfast buffet, you get what you want. Then you go up to your studio, your lunch is delivered up to your studio, so you don't have to break, your flow. Then dinner is served communal style at about six 30, and then some of us would go back to our studios after dinner and keep working and. It's nice. There's about 25 artists and residents at times. So the dinner is a nice communal affair, and there's writers and painters and composers, interesting people. It's, I, I made some great friendships while I was there, but not having to think you know, we stop three times a day to figure out our meals, shit, who am I gonna DoorDash from, even takes time to figure out to just not think about it, not be interrupted by it. At that point I was starting this fourth novel, so I was in a very research intensive period and I just, disappeared into the novel. I was so immersed without interruption, in a way that I never have. And I've written three novels, you know, successfully executed without getting into that kind of a state. And you know, Jennifer, my girlfriend, would always encourage me to go to residencies, go do them, get outta the fucking house now go to the residencies. and I would say I don't need to, I, I have a, a great office here at home. I close the door. I'm disciplined. I'm a driven and productive, but I did it and I got so excited by the experience while I was up there about three quarters through the residency, I applied for 12 more for next the following year. I went different for those 12, which was, I really, I kind of notched it up to slightly more gold plated, much more competitive residencies. So the one that you referred to, is it, is the Domar house, the, the Domar Cultural Center in Provence area in France. Have been applying there for almost 10 years on and off. It was one that I really wanted to go dos, you know, for writers sort of mid-career. I have a number of friends, like three or four friends who had done it there and really loved it. And I kept getting rejected and I kept getting, you know, butt hurt and pissy and I would complain to Jennifer like, ah, fuck it, I'm not applying again. And after a few years you're like, you know, you should really apply to Dora Mar again. And, and I would then last year I got waitlisted, which was encouraging. I got a step closer. this novel that I'm writing right now I have caught a live one. like this is, this is a big deal book and I can feel it and I know it, and i'm fundamentally a lazy person I'm actually a pretty lazy guy. and would get irritated at the complexity of some of these residency applications that truth are not that complicated. And I, I had a tendency of sort of half-assing them in the past. I know this because the idea was, well, they'll accept me on my reputation, and if they don't, I could tell myself it was because I half-assed it and, you know, I could, I, I could save face. And I decided not to half-ass this one. I decided I'm gonna, gonna put my shoulder and, and, and write the shit outta the application and really swing for the fences on this one. I put in a dozen applications and to give you the tote board of where we stand today. Six of them are still outstanding. I'm waiting to hear. I got three passes, which is fine. I have been accepted to two Dormar the first, I have been accepted to another one in November. That's a big fancy one, but I'm not allowed to announce it until they announce it. So I have to be hush. And I think I'm on the edge for one that I applied for in Switzerland. I'm waiting to hear back from them. It was ecstatic news when I heard about Dora Mar because it, I had tried for so long. And so to finally get that, it really reminded me that, you know. not personal, it's not about you. You're applying for one of three spaces and there's, you know, hundreds of applicants you just have to sort of wait for your moment when the thing you're working on connects with the readers who are reading the applications and, and then you go for it. So, know, we'll see how, we'll see how the rest of them do. So, and I may get no more. This could be it. And that's still a home run year to have two month long residencies

Kelton 58:09

it's, it's just so aspirational too. You described yourself as MIG career and it's like, you know, you write the first book, the point is to write many more and to have all of these accomplishments keep coming and coming and coming and that there's always something to strive for and new people to meet and to just expand what you're capable of. I find it very motivating to think about, you know, I have a toddler at home, so I can't really go anywhere quite yet. But in the years to come, there's so much to look forward to in terms of, applying and rejecting and, and hoping.

Mark Sarvas 58:39

And, and you know, my toddler is a teenager. There's many, many years I did not do the residencies and the kid was the reason. So, but now was the moment to do them. And, and honestly for me, the second book was even more exciting and special than the, and my favorite part of my second novel is the page that says also by Mark Sarvas. And it has my first book there because that suggests you're not a flash in the pan, you're not one and done like you're, you're beginning something. And then in@Ugman, there were two books there. And now in my new book, there will be three books there. And, and you really like to see that accrual of your, your body of work taking place, you know?

Krisserin 59:18

Do we have time for one more question?

Mark Sarvas 59:20

nowhere to go, man. I'm a writer. You know, time is my own. So yes, please.

Krisserin 59:24

Well, I, you know, obviously I met you as a teacher and I find that your workshops are incredibly productive and part of the reason why they are so productive is you have pretty strict rules in your workshops. And I think, a very firm grasp of what makes a good workshop and what makes for a poorly organized workshop. So I would love if you would just share with our listeners, because a lot of them haven't taken any writing workshops or taken any classes. But if they're gonna step into a class, what are the rules that they should be looking out for what are the Sarvas rules

Mark Sarvas 59:58

Harvest

Krisserin 59:59

for

Mark Sarvas 59:59

Yes.

Krisserin 59:59

a, a good workshop?

Mark Sarvas 1:00:01

it's funny, they. They haven't changed all that much over the years. I, I, I feel like maybe I should be evolving more with the times, but, but I don't. Well, first, look, what I always say about workshop is that, and this is so important for people to understand the day that your submission is workshopped the least important day in the workshop. That's it. The experience of the workshop is about you having to think critically about somebody else's work week in and week out, how to develop a vocabulary to talk about what is going on in that work and to have the precision and the vision to be able to see the issue and articulate it. you know, Kelton, to go back to our athletics metaphor, that is a muscle and that is a muscle that you can absolutely develop the shit out of, and you become a strong self editor. By doing that, the more you can edit other people and the more you can sort of quickly look and see and put your finger on the thing that the submission does well and that the submission some work on, is, you know, you learn that over hundreds and hundreds of hours of workshopping and that will change you as a writer. And then, you know, if you're lucky, if you've landed a good cohort, you may get some useful notes back. You, you may not, but it is that development of your own, self-editing, either that is critical. So, you know, my, my rules of the workshop include things like, I'm not one of those who like, okay, you're gonna read five pages in your workshop in real time and then we're gonna talk about it. It's all done in advance. You know, you, you get the pages in advance. have, I tell my workshops, you must read these multiple times. Minimum of two. You know, I think three is best, but at least two times mark up the pages to really interact with what's going on on the pages. And then to write a meaningful cover letter, synthesizes your big picture, praise and your big picture reservations, observations, critique, whatever words you, you want to use. I think so, I think those things are really important. That's one rule of the workshop. Another rule, the workshop is the person, as the workshop, or the person who is giving the critique, think about what the writer is trying to accomplish, not what you want them to do. You know, c concern. Remember I have this, my sign that I, I start to hold up in my workshop whenever anybody

Krisserin 1:02:33

I was gonna say, where's the, where's the note card?

Mark Sarvas 1:02:36

When, whenever anybody begins their note with, well, you know, I wanted, I shut them down because it's not your fucking book. I don't care what you wanted. So that's not the way to formulate a critique. Now, on the other hand, impulse that leads to the, I want, usually something there. So, you know, if you wanna say, well, I wanted more action, maybe the note is, I felt that this section lacked conflict and narrative tension. You know, those are the kinds of things where you, you learn how to talk about, what's going on in these pages. Like the writer to talk. the writer involved, but I don't want the writer to defend, you know, that that's something that, you know, and I've ejected people from the workshop over the years who just sort of stubbornly defend their work instead of listening to the note. I think good writers will listen to the feedback and they'll ask questions like, Hey, that's an interesting point. You know, if I did this, do you think it might address that? Or, where did you start to feel your attention drift? You know, I think the writer's questions should be targeted at pulling out the nuances of the reading experience.'cause that's what you want. What was the reading experience for you? What did you go through as you were reading my pages? and honestly, be rigorous, be disciplined. Show up. You know, if, if I find someone phoning it in, you know, they're, they're out. There's, there's, you know, if I find someone who, things like, you have to deliver your notes in a timely fashion to the writer so they can work with it. I have those, those kinds of administrative rules. But the other thing that I tell people is if you're, especially if you're joining a new workshop, I think that, and sometimes I get the question of, oh, well what should I submit? What should I submit to the workshop? I say. Resist the temptation to submit the, the polish thing that, you know, everyone's gonna love and will tell you what a great writer you are. And I know why that feels good and I know why we want that. I said, the thing to give in the workshop is have been struggling with this chapter for three months and I cannot, I know it doesn't work and I don't know why. I just, I need other eyes on it. Please tell me, you know, what's going on here. And sometimes people submit this and they're like, dude, I think this chapter's great. then other times people are immediately like, well look what's going on here? Is this, this, and that. So I think put in the stuff that you know isn't there, but you don't know why. Don't submit the stuff like where I, this isn't working, but I know exactly what the problems are.'cause that's not gonna give you any useful information either. So, and, you know, treat your peers and colleagues. Work with respect and diligence and really pay it the kind of attention that you want to see. Given to your work.

Krisserin 1:05:25

Love that.

Mark Sarvas 1:05:26

answer to me.

Krisserin 1:05:26

That's right. Kelton, do you have any other questions from Mark before we sign off?

Kelton 1:05:32

No, I'm sad and sorry I missed the beginning of the interview. But it is a pleasure to meet you.

Mark Sarvas 1:05:37

Very nice to meet you too. And good luck with your, with your next chapters. Chris Air did talk a little bit about what you've got going on,

Kelton 1:05:43

very

Mark Sarvas 1:05:43

fingers are crossed, well,

Krisserin 1:05:44

Alright,

Mark Sarvas 1:05:45

was wonderful.

Krisserin 1:05:45

it was so great to have you finally on the podcast.'cause we, I feel like I talk about you all the time.

Kelton 1:05:51

It's

Krisserin 1:05:52

He was like

Mark Sarvas 1:05:52

I'm

Krisserin 1:05:53

my teacher, mark says.

Mark Sarvas 1:05:55

Well, that doesn't mean you

Krisserin 1:05:57

So, uh,

Mark Sarvas 1:05:58

blame me when it all goes badly, so, you know, but

Krisserin 1:06:01

do that too. No, I'm kidding.

Mark Sarvas 1:06:02

I should

Krisserin 1:06:03

I will say,

Mark Sarvas 1:06:04

God dammit. I should never have listened to him.

Krisserin 1:06:07

I will say we were going through, I was trying to compile my querying history as for one of the episodes, and there was an agent who back in 2014, had emailed me maybe three or four times asking for the Gustafson novel And I have email chains of you and I going back and forth, and you were like, don't send it till it's ready. She's a good agent. She'll, she'll wait. And then that lead completely dried up because I stopped working on the book and then I had a baby. But I was like, what would've happened if I would've sent her something?

Mark Sarvas 1:06:37

Yeah. Who knows? You know?

Krisserin 1:06:40

Who knows? Babies. They ruin everything.

Mark Sarvas 1:06:42

fuck it all up, man. It's the worst.

Krisserin 1:06:43

Oh man. Well. Mark, tell the listeners where they can find you and what, where they can learn more about the services that you offer in the classes that they teach and where you post about your, your news.

Mark Sarvas 1:06:55

I, you know, I, I say I post less and less these days. I'm, I'm, I'm conscious effort to spend less time online. I have a website, marksarvas.com and, you know, my editing services and so forth are touched on there. And maybe the one thing I'll mention is that, you know, we're talking about residencies and retreats. I do an annual writing retreat up in the Monterey Bay area. My partner Jennifer, runs a literary organization called To the Lighthouse, the website being to the lighthouse.net and she works with me to put on this retreat. You'll find the link on the page and it's basically, you come. To the Monterey Peninsula and stay in a quaint little room for four days we bring your lunch to you and we, you know, try to make it feel like a, mini Yaddo or a, a mini kind of residency and you just write and it's not a workshop, you know, it's about coming and spending time with your novel. I give two craft talks, you know, usually one on Friday night, one on Saturday night, but it's really about sitting down with your book, working all day, spending the evening, hanging out with the other writers who are there. And it's a lot of fun. We've had people coming back year after year, and we didn't do it last year because of just logistical stuff and almost didn't do it this year. But we decided, nah, we can't, deny them another year. There's only three spots left. And it's in April, like that middle weekend in April. So that's, that's a fun, fun time. I've had people who finish their novel, they want to, they have a first draft and they spend the weekend reading it, you know, going through it, marking it up and figuring out what they have. I've had people who've come up with no idea what to write, just knowing they wanted to write a novel and they sit in their room and by the end of the weekend they, they churn some stuff out. So it's, it's a lot of fun. And, and that's the next thing that I'm offering. I have, pulled back on my editing offerings, at least through June of this year.'Cause I'm focused on my novel right now, and i'll take on a few new clients in the second half of the year. But as I said, I'm trying to put that a little bit in the backseat while I get this very difficult, tricky, complicated novel on its feet.

Speaker 2 1:09:03

Awesome. Well, it sounds great. Thanks Mark so much for being on the podcast. We really enjoyed having you.

Mark Sarvas 1:09:08

Thank you both. It was great and I appreciate the invitation.

Krisserin 1:09:14

All right. Wow, what a treat. What did you think of my, my teacher Kelton.

Kelton 1:09:23

Listen, I loved him. I also have to tell the listeners if you're like, wow, Kelton was awfully silent in the beginning. It's because I got called into a work call and I couldn't join for the first half. So I was so glad I couldn't make it for the second half because he's a treat, you know, he, he's such a good reminder. For us, especially at this stage in our book writing career, that like, this is just the beginning. Like the point is to be an author for the rest of your life. and so these things that we're doing we're the applying, the querying, there are things that will happen again and again if we're doing what we really wanna be doing.

Krisserin 1:10:00

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 1:10:01

And to think of it as a career and not like this, this thing you do on the side that like

Krisserin 1:10:06

Yeah.

Kelton 1:10:06

out. So I found, I found him refreshing. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:10:12

publish his first novel till 44, which definitely makes me, I was thinking about it. You know, I'm 41 now and his whole literary career happened for the most part. I mean, he was obviously blogging and screenwriting but in his mid forties and has happened since then. And it's, I think that. We're, we're still young and we forget that we have all of these other lives to live ahead of us. We don't even, we can't even conceive of what our life is going to be like when we're in our sixties and our seventies. And, I find that, you know, very encouraging. One thing that he talk, did talk about before you hopped on was, we talked a little bit about how the culture has changed with querying and agents. And he said this like, ghosting culture is a very like, kind of new phenomenon where. Even his agent who has these relationships that he's built with editors and publishers over the years, when they were sending out his most recent novel, they just didn't respond to his agent. And these are professional relationships. Can you imagine if you worked on multiple projects with someone and they didn't respond to your email for a new one? Not even a courtesy, Hey, thanks for sending this my way. But no thanks. It's not even happening anymore. So it's just, it's a, it's an interesting time that we live in, you know, when, especially the literary landscape is changing, people are more and more impatient to enter publishing and get their book published, et cetera, and it takes more and more better writing to, to get through to the next step in your career.

Kelton 1:11:44

there's also just more and more people in

Krisserin 1:11:47

Yeah,

Kelton 1:11:47

and there's

Krisserin 1:11:48

yeah,

Kelton 1:11:48

more people entering the field like it's. And there's more and more ways to be contacted. You know, of course, you know, like agent, it seems like I come across as like, do not talk to me outside of the query submission guidelines.

Krisserin 1:12:03

yeah.

Kelton 1:12:03

DM me, don't find me

Krisserin 1:12:06

No,

Kelton 1:12:07

me, but like, do not slip into any inbox, which,

Krisserin 1:12:12

yeah.

Kelton 1:12:12

You know, I think that's totally reasonable. But it's crazy to hear that like people with working relationships are just answering certain emails.

Krisserin 1:12:22

Do you ever think about whether or not you would want to be an agent. I mean, you, you're a editor. You have been for publications and you have been contacted by writers and you have, you have had to kind of sift through the slush pile. Have you ever thought about it?

Kelton 1:12:39

No, I don't want to, Liz, every time I did that as a job, there's definitely aspects of it I like, but at the end of the day, it always left me just desperately wanting to write.

Krisserin 1:12:51

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 1:12:51

And so like the signals for me were very clear. It was like I did not find fulfillment out of being an editor. I found fulfillment out of the writing being an editor, like when I, it was always like for a, a big job. And so it came with the trappings of this is the company I work for, this is the benefits that I have. This is the salary that I get. And those were the things that were driving me, not the editing.

Krisserin 1:13:18

Yeah.

Kelton 1:13:19

and so then I would be rushing through my job so that I could get back to writing.

Krisserin 1:13:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelton 1:13:24

though,'cause I had literally never considered being an agent.

Krisserin 1:13:28

There's a lot of agents that are, are writers. I don't, I know that you can go to MFA programs to become an agent.

Kelton 1:13:36

Of the agents I see in their own bios, it says what they've written.

Krisserin 1:13:40

yeah.

Kelton 1:13:41

so I find that really compelling. But, you know, I do think, I have a little bit of a, oh, a grandiose star problem. You know, this is a girl who wants to be on stage. I have, visions of grander and they're about me. So thing to know about myself.

Krisserin 1:14:02

I think you're just very honest about it. I feel like a lot of people feel that way and can be judged for it, but,

Kelton 1:14:08

I also feel like it's often framed as like a very masculine thing.

Krisserin 1:14:12

hmm.

Kelton 1:14:12

Like, oh, this person thinks they're so good, and then I'm always like, I think I'm so good. Oh, no.

Krisserin 1:14:20

We all need a little bit of that in our lives. So if anyone listening feels like kelton's, confidence gives them permission to feel more confident about themselves than you know, you, you.

Kelton 1:14:32

you to some of mine. It's so unwarranted so far, so please use some of mine.

Krisserin 1:14:40

When I think about my future, Mark and I talked a little bit about this before you, you jumped on also, which is, you don't wanna spend too much time. Accepting awards that you haven't won in your mind, that you haven't won yet. And it's really about focusing on the work and et cetera. But when I think about what I want, like what success looks like for me, it is very much kind of what Mark's life looks like, which is he has students that he works with. And he has retreat that he does once a year and he gets to go on residencies that he is applied to and been accepted to. And he gets to write. I think that that is idyllic. I think that, I mean obviously he has an older child, a teenager, so there's a little bit of flexibility in the, the childcare situation there. But, that sounds great. If we get to go and host retreats and have pen pals live recordings on stage, that would be fun too.

Kelton 1:15:38

Yeah, I mean, I, I think our visions are somewhat similar. I don't see myself having one-on-one relationships with students. The more, last night was the first night of the Rewilding winter practice, and it was awesome. And I really enjoy teaching to a crowd. But I think one-on-one is just not where I thrive in that way. When I envision my future, you know, it's. I talk a little bit about this in one of my query letters, specifically to the agent who reached out to me where I was like, I see my work as an ecosystem that feeds itself, where I am writing on the newsletter, which is driving to the class, which introduces people to the podcast, which brings people to the book. And I want all of these things to work. As an ecosystem, and I wanna grow all of them enough that I don't have to have clients that are outside this ecosystem. I don't have to, you know, like fly outta my orbit to be like, okay, what planet am I on? What are we writing about? Like, I wanna write about ecology and neuroscience and ritual and magic and place and home and just have that be career. And so that is, that's the goal.

Krisserin 1:16:54

It's a little Mel Robbins. It's a little Brene Brown. He'd be like the Brene Brown of ecology in magic.

Kelton 1:17:00

I gotta go back to school to become a ecologist apparently. But, who knows? Maybe I do go back to school for something I had long considered going back to school for ecology or wildlife biology. But it just, it doesn't financially make sense with the life I wanna live. So, you know, there are a lot of people who teach through learned experience rather than through education. And, and I don't see why I can't be one of'em.

Krisserin 1:17:25

Honestly, the, the only reason the MFA finally makes sense in my life is that it's not super expensive. The I-A-I-M-F-A is like 15 k.

Kelton 1:17:37

Yeah.

Krisserin 1:17:37

A year and like the, the Bennington program that Mark went to was like$33,000 a year, you know, plus travel, plus all of that stuff, so,

Kelton 1:17:47

Yeah. Plus you, you're not working, you know,

Krisserin 1:17:50

right.

Kelton 1:17:50

most of those programs, you're, you're at a, you're at a crazy deficit.

Krisserin 1:17:54

Yeah.

Kelton 1:17:55

And like that doesn't make sense in my house. So

Krisserin 1:17:58

same. You know, the N-Y-U-M-F-A programs like upwards of, it's more than 50,000 a year or a three year MFAI. I will say though, there there is a low residency MFA and their sessions are in Paris, so it does, that does sound nice.

Kelton 1:18:15

Well, if you get three nice deals in a row, you could just use all the money you make to pay off your schooling.

Krisserin 1:18:23

No, because take out like 40% for taxes.

Kelton 1:18:27

totally. And for your agent and for the publisher, good

Krisserin 1:18:31

I'll, if I do get into IAII will be in New Mexico twice a year. Maybe you can drive down and say hi.

Kelton 1:18:37

love to, yeah, I

Krisserin 1:18:38

Yeah.

Kelton 1:18:38

drive down. That's where I'd like to host a retreat.

Krisserin 1:18:42

Yeah. I would love to do that. I think that would be so cool. We did get one listener write in and say that she would attend a retreat with us. So thank you Jenna, for writing it.

Kelton 1:18:52

Jenna gets an early bird discount to the retreat. Okay.

Krisserin 1:18:55

That's right. And the best room after hours.

Kelton 1:18:58

gets the best room.

Krisserin 1:18:59

Absolutely. All right, Kelton, what are our goals for next week?

Kelton 1:19:05

we are three more agents.

Krisserin 1:19:07

I love it.

Kelton 1:19:08

I'm getting live feedback right, right now from that friend who's reviewing it. And I do wanna take in some of her consideration.'cause one thing I kind of had. Left out of my queries. It's funny, you write so much for these nonfiction proposals and, and I assume for the fiction ones as well, but one of the things that kind of slipped out of there was like, why this book now? And she's right that, that is like a thoughtful, smart thing to include in terms of like marketing. But it is kind of peppered into the marketing and promotions aspect of the proposal. But it's not specifically in the query letter. Like why would this book land. the next two years. and so I, she is right that I want to include that, especially for the agents that she knows,'cause they're commercial people. So I am gonna, I'm gonna work on that. So I have a little bit of work to do on the proposal and I will query three more people.

Krisserin 1:20:09

Amazing. Well, I did the one goal that I did not achieve, this last week was taking myself out on a date

Kelton 1:20:17

What

Krisserin 1:20:17

the library.

Kelton 1:20:17

you accomplished all your goals. You

Krisserin 1:20:19

Um. I forgot about that one. I forgot about that one. I did think about it actually. Um, because I was at the, I had to go to the doctor. I hurt my knee playing tennis, which I, I'm just I feel like I'm falling apart. Got like skin problems and I hurt my knee. So I went to the doctor and at the doctor's office, like nearby, there's a bookstore, and I thought about going in, but then I was like, wait, if I don't leave now, I'm gonna have to pay for parking. So I left.

Kelton 1:20:49

Uh

Krisserin 1:20:50

I will go though. I think that that is my, my, you know, I have my, meeting with Kima next Friday. I do wanna go and, do that research that we talked about and, I kind of wanna start reading some short stories. I feel like short stories inspire me to write more. So I've been in a little bit of a book slump. I did start reading the silly book by an author named Lila Sage. She did a bunch of, western romances. This character though, in the book that I'm reading, I forget the, what it's called, it's got some cute title. She reminds me so much of you. She's got a nose piercing and lots of tattoos and she can speak to ghosts and, is from a small little mountain town in Wyoming. So I was like, this is Kelton.

Kelton 1:21:36

Yes, does sound like me.

Krisserin 1:21:38

I feel like I'm reading a book about Kelton, so I've been, slowly enjoying that. But I've been in a little bit of a slump. So my goal this week is to go to the bookstore and to the library and do a little bit more research and to pick up a short story collection to read.

Kelton 1:21:52

Exciting.

Krisserin 1:21:53

Yeah. Still not writing though.

Kelton 1:21:57

What you're not supposed to be right now, you did your grad school application, like you're meeting with your agent, you're gonna go out on submission this is, give yourself a break.

Krisserin 1:22:05

All right. That was one thing Mark said. He was like, you need to celebrate when you finish a draft, even the first draft, you need to go out to dinner, you need to celebrate. It's an accomplishment. And I feel like I finished the second draft and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, next thing. So I, I do, um, I do need to take a beat, so I will do that for myself. But in the meantime, I'm excited to hear about you're querying, and how successful you are on that'cause I'm sure you'll get it done.

Kelton 1:22:34

Oh gosh. Yeah. Well, I'll be texting you as I slip into people's inboxes. There's

Krisserin 1:22:41

love it.

Kelton 1:22:41

I don't know, and we're gonna find out all of it

Krisserin 1:22:44

Yep. You learn on the job with querying, unfortunately. But, I'm excited and it sounds like you're getting a lot of feedback and intros and so I just, I feel like. There is magic in the air. I feel like there's good news on the horizon. And all of the astrological things, say, including the Chinese astrology,

Kelton 1:23:04

listen, it does say that this is our year.

Krisserin 1:23:07

it's our year. My year is gonna be hard. I'm a rat. I'm a wood rat. And this year is the year with a fire horse. It's like completely oppositional to what, I'm in. But it means it's meant to be like challenging and transformative. So let's hope. Let's hope that it's all positive because guess what? My year, my astrological year, the year of the rat was 2020. So

Kelton 1:23:28

Oh God.

Krisserin 1:23:29

I'll, I'll take this year, 2026.

Kelton 1:23:34

Alright everybody, you know where you can find us. Do send us emails and questions. We would love to answer your questions at official pen pals pod@gmail.com. Find us as pen pals Pod on all the platforms. You can find Krisserin's writing krisserin.substack.com. You can find my writing at shangrilogs.substack.com if you like. Shangri Logs, I'm asking you to share it with people because I can. Hit my goal of 10,000 subscribers soon. If people help me. If people help me,

Krisserin 1:24:08

that's so exciting.

Kelton 1:24:09

help getting people to read it.'cause they're like, the Substack ecosystem is so saturated, you know? and follow us on social media. You can follow me on Instagram at Kelton Kin or Kelton writes, I don't know what I'm doing. We'll talk about that next week.

Krisserin 1:24:25

We were supposed to talk about it two weeks ago. Every time I create a reel and I tag both accounts, I'm like, what am I doing? Count, not supposed to tell me.

Kelton 1:24:33

You're being a good friend. We will, I pro I swear to God we'll talk about it next week. I'm

Krisserin 1:24:37

Okay.

Kelton 1:24:38

one of my goals to

Krisserin 1:24:39

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Kelton 1:24:41

You can find us both on, TikTok, even though, it feels like we're supposed to banish that now. I haven't been reading the news, but the news basically was like, don't use this anymore.

Krisserin 1:24:51

yeah. It's like now a bunch of Trump cronies are running it, so I'm like, I don't,

Kelton 1:24:55

no. Not

Krisserin 1:24:57

I don't wanna, I know literally we can't have anything, anything.

Kelton 1:25:03

It's a nightmare out there.

Krisserin 1:25:05

It really is.

Kelton 1:25:07

Not

Krisserin 1:25:07

just, no.

Kelton 1:25:09

to official pen pals pod@gmail.com for a good time.

Krisserin 1:25:13

Yes. Let us know how you're doing. Let us know if you wanna go on a retreat. We love to hear from you. We're a safe space.

Kelton 1:25:21

All right, love you guys. Happy writing.

Krisserin 1:25:23

Happy writing.