What Debut Authors Actually Get Paid (And Why We're Mad About It)

What does a debut author actually get paid? Krisserin and Kelton dig into Emily Zips' survey data and don't love what they find—average two-book deals for $50K, most authors working day jobs, and advances that won't cover daycare.

Plus: Kelton's Scrivener file predicted her dream agent, Instagram shadow ban drama, the identity question of "writer vs. mom," and why chapter summaries feel like showing your work in seventh grade math. Krisserin's IAIA MFA application is complete, and someone's getting paid $100 per chapter summary—into their own savings account.

Books Mentioned in This Episode:
• "The Possession of Alba Diaz" by Isabel Cañas
• "Soul Searching" by Lyla Sage

Resources Mentioned:
• Emily Zipps' Debut Author Survey

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

Kelton 0:01

Hi Krisserin,

Krisserin 0:03

Hi, Kelton,

Kelton 0:06

right before you hit record, Krisserin was cackling and my intestines just made this like old door and a haunted house sound. They were just like, so, we're like, we are really ready for today.

0:20

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Krisserin 0:34

Totally ready for today. I'm sick. I've been sick all week. I got like five hours of sleep last night and my HRV was 27, whatever that means. I think that's bad.

Kelton 0:45

Ooh, that's bad.

Krisserin 0:47

Yeah.

Kelton 0:48

Brutal.

Krisserin 0:49

But we're here and we're so excited to be here'cause we have a lot to talk about this

Kelton 0:55

Yeah, I mean, it's funny'cause like.

Krisserin 0:57

us.

Kelton 0:58

The longer you and I are working on this stuff, obviously the more we learn about the industry and the more I have a desire to learn about the industry, the more my algorithms shift to show me the industry. And it just feels like now I'm immersed in this ecosystem of all this information I did not know a year ago. And it's, it's fascinating and overwhelming and sort of wild some of the stuff you get to learn about people.

Krisserin 1:28

Well, do you also feel because. I, same. I get a ton of content about publishing and some of it I just don't believe.

Kelton 1:40

Oh, tell me more.

Krisserin 1:42

I just feel like, the stories that get pushed out are sometimes remarkable. the things that are like, I was querying, I queried 10. and the next day I got five requests for a full manuscript, and a week later I had three agents who wanted to represent me, and I'm like,

Kelton 2:04

Oh yeah. But it's also like even. Assuming it's true, assuming good faith that people are telling the truth. Of course, those are the stories that get pushed to the top. They're the, they're like the sweetheart. Amazing stories. No one's gonna be like, I queried it's 30 times for a year and it didn't go anywhere. And I did a lot of hard work for a couple years and then queried 40 more times and actually ended up going through two agents and then I had a mid release and I made$50,000. No one's like share it everywhere. What a story. You know, I wish they did. I wish that was more visible. And I feel like, it slowly is becoming visible because there is that. The element of truth telling that people really yearn for. You know, when people like looking at more authentic spaces as opposed to really curated Kardashian ones. When someone is like, Hey, here's a book I wrote four years ago. Here's all the royalties or, or not that I've received. Here's how marketing worked. Here's how my paychecks came to me. There's been a few people who've done that on Substack in the last. Month and those pieces are widely shared. And part of that is because Substack is a readers and writers community for the most part. And so everyone's just like, oh, okay. A look behind someone else's front door. this is awesome. Thank you for sharing. I don't feel like I'm a loser after watching five tiktoks, about 24 year olds getting seven figure advances.

Krisserin 3:29

I do, I feel like a loser. I mean I think that part of me, I hear those stories and I'm. Kind of a disbelief that that actually happens. But then I also see the data. There is a, woman on Substack, her name's Emily Zips, and she did a survey debut authors and I just want, listen, in digital marketing. I would just like to say the sample size for this survey was very small. There were 60 authors in the study, but it's still, it's interesting information. Right. But I almost like don't wanna believe this either because it, the results made me really, they discouraged to me.

Kelton 4:11

Okay. Before we get into the results, I do think we should talk about some encouraging things, including our goals from last week.

Krisserin 4:18

Oh, well then you should go first

Kelton 4:21

Oh, no, you, you didn't go on a library date that.

Krisserin 4:24

girl. Okay, so

Kelton 4:27

guess you were sick. I'll, I'll allow it.

Krisserin 4:29

we recorded on Thursday, on Friday was at my daughter's school for 12 hours.

Kelton 4:36

Why

Krisserin 4:37

because I, I'm on the, you know. PTA and she was shaking her head. We had our family dance on Friday and it was back to the future themed. So I spent from 8:00 AM 3:00 PM decorating the auditorium and with a hour and a half break for a meeting and lunch. And then I was at the dance from like five until eight 30 when I broke everything down and put everything away. And so as I was doing that, I was like, I'm gonna get sick. I could just feel it, you know, when you're, you're just

Kelton 5:13

Oh, oh yeah.

Krisserin 5:14

the ground

Kelton 5:15

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 5:16

Sure enough, I was, I literally, today is the first day that I feel, actually yesterday I felt a little bit better, but, I have been sick this whole time since,

Kelton 5:25

is what you, this is what you get for not taking yourself on a library date the week I told you to.

Krisserin 5:30

Damn brutal. I will say though, I finished a book, which I have not done in a while. I finished Soul Searching by Lyla Sage, which was the book I'd mentioned, reminded me of you, and it was cute. It was fine. Lyla Sage's books are cute. All of her like western romances are cute. They're kind of like nice little, interludes into to romance. And then I started a new book Isabelle Kanas, and I'm gonna. I forget the title of it. It's not the vampires of El Norte, which is the book I think people know her for. It's something, something Alba Dias It is humbling me. It is such. Oh, well, a written book. last week when we talked to Mark his, when we asked him how he improves his craft and he talked about building the library and reading, I, as I was reading this book, mark always says, you need to read like a writer. like, this is what I sh this, this is the stuff I should be reading because the writing is so beautiful on a sentence level that it makes me feel bad about myself, which is probably thing. Right. I've been reading at least I, which

Kelton 6:38

Yeah.

Krisserin 6:39

I could not say that about myself week, so I did

Kelton 6:43

I

Krisserin 6:45

literary.

Kelton 6:46

of you for doing something related to this podcast.

Krisserin 6:50

Appreciate it.

Kelton 6:52

I, um, I actually, it's funny you mentioned that because I, I just like checked out a bunch of books from the library. Some of'em are on hold, but I was like, I need to start kind of reading in the genre of my novel again while I'm like, waiting on figuring out stuff with this proposal.

Krisserin 7:08

You would

Kelton 7:08

uh,

Krisserin 7:09

This is such a Kelton book.

Kelton 7:11

is it, Ooh.

Krisserin 7:12

Sylvia Moreno Garcia, like

Kelton 7:14

Ooh. Okay,

Krisserin 7:16

horror, um,

Kelton 7:18

great.

Krisserin 7:19

set in Mexico in the 18th century with ghosts and spooky

Kelton 7:24

I'm a thousand percent in.

Krisserin 7:26

and then like the writing is just like, I get I sentences and I'm like, I could never write like this. It's so good, dude. It's such a

Kelton 7:33

Oh, I love that. Okay, well I'll add that to my list once you figure out what the title is.

Krisserin 7:38

Got Alba in it. That's all

Kelton 7:39

okay. Well, my goals for last week were to polish the proposal and to query three more agents. And I got close, I did some polishing of the query letter. I had mentioned last week that I, I had a friend looking, I have a number of people looking over this proposal, and one of them was like. You didn't include the why, why this book right now, like the data around it. And so I, I had that in an earlier version and it just got pushed out and so I went back and revisited that talked about loneliness and disconnection and Zillow obsessions and how many Americans move every year. And just kind of laid out the facts about global transition and things like that. So that's in the query letter Now, it very clearly states that people are disconnected from their lives and they're not investigating them soundly enough. And this book can help them do that. So that I did polish that aspect of it. And then I queried two agents. I did not get to query all three. I,

Krisserin 8:47

I think

Kelton 8:47

you know, I, yeah, I feel good about that. I still haven't finalized my chapter summaries, and so it just, it narrows down who I can query, because some people for a nonfiction memoir proposal really want that. And so those people, I just are, I will have to wait on doing them. And you know, it's, it's so weird in the beginning of querying'cause I know what my chances are. Obviously they're low, but I still have that beginner's hope that well maybe this week someone I really like will get back to me. I've had to set very strict boundaries around my email for the first time in a long time. Right now my inbox on my phone is like. Very low stakes. It's substack emails, events in town, you know, rocket money. You're halfway through your entertainment budget, everything is so low stakes. And so I read my email in bed at night because it's usually just newsletters and I'm like, Hmm, of course I'm gonna read what people are writing. But now at any time of the day. I could get an email being like, you suck. I never wanna read anything by you again. Or let's jump on a call. You know, it could go either way. But either way, my heart rate is going up and I'm like, okay, past 4:00 PM I can't read email before I feed the kid in the morning. I can't read email. So I've just had to be like, no, no. If these emails come in, they need to come in.

Krisserin 10:18

so that's a good thing. That's another, you didn't want to, you wanted to kind of put the phone down as

Kelton 10:23

Yeah.

Krisserin 10:25

healthier

Kelton 10:25

and I mean like a part of it is I'm just like, I don't get to look at my phone at all during the day when I have the kid.'cause if I have my phone and he sees it, he's like, see pictures of me? And I'm like, listen, I love that you're as vain as your mother. That's really important to me. I'm so glad you inherited that. But.

Krisserin 10:44

Cute, so,

Kelton 10:45

We are, yeah, we are not just gonna look through photos of you on my phone. I did have a book made of photos of him and ev every day he wants me to describe every photo, what was happening here.

Krisserin 10:58

oh,

Kelton 10:59

So it's very charming. But anyways, phone is low. Two ear agents queried, two people I really liked. Um, so, uh oh. Before we get into the data, I wanna tell our listeners my magic story. I texted this to Krisserin already so she knows this, this happened, but I, you know, I, I've been getting the itch lately to return to the novel, especially like, while I'm not doing real writing on the proposal, and so I opened up my Scrivener file from May of 2025. And it opened, you know, if you use Scrivener, you know, you can have like all of your chapters and your notes and like different pages like linking out to stuff. And it opened to a note I had on, agents that I would consider sending this proposal to people who were looking for kind of kooky, gothic Terry Chet s fiction, and the last agent I had written was the agent who reached out to me to see what I was working on, and I was like. What the fuck? Because I haven't opened it since May, and there's only th

Krisserin 12:12

the

Kelton 12:13

there's only three agents. It was the first thing I saw, it was the last thing I had written in the Scrivener file. It opened to that page and there was her name, and I was like, are you joking? Are you joking? There's only three people written there. And she was the third one.

Krisserin 12:30

That's just like unbelievable.

Kelton 12:34

I know. Well now I'm just gonna be like mad if she's not interested.'cause I'm like, the universe told me you would be. Listen, the thing I have already decided though, that even if she rejects me, even if like my proposal's not the right fit, I am gonna tell her this story just to be like, look, I get it. This wasn't the right book for you. But when I finish my novel, I will be back.

Krisserin 12:56

Yeah, maybe if you don't already have an agent for your

Kelton 13:00

Yeah, I guess that's true. That's true. Maybe I do get a different agent.

Krisserin 13:04

No, I, I think it's amazing that she wrote, reached out to you regarding your nonfiction and you were considering, see, that's when we talked about the other agent, that was one of your dream agents they weren't looking for the type of fiction you were writing, so I was like, maybe they're not your dream agent because.

Kelton 13:20

Yeah. Krisserin, that was a very astute a, a great point. I did have this like. There, there is an agent I have in mind for the nonfiction proposal because that agent has represented. Incredibly, books that are similar in vibe, books that I love, books that I've returned to. And so I was like, oh, she could really shepherd this into the world. And then Krisserin was like, uh, did you look at her list of what she wants out fiction? It's not you.

Krisserin 13:47

It

Kelton 13:47

And, and that's so interesting to think about.'cause it's like, I, listen, I love being a nonfiction writer. I love essay and all that stuff, but I do love that fiction book. And it is niggling at the back of my mind and I wanna get back into it. So making sure that I'm working with someone who wants to see through my whole career, I think is, is actually really smart. That said, if that woman reaches out to me, you're gonna have to claw her outta my hands.

Krisserin 14:12

I'm sure there's precedent for having. I don't know. I'm talking outta my ass. I'm like, maybe you have a non-fiction agent and, and a fiction agent, or who

Kelton 14:22

I mean, I, I have seen that people have talked. It's not, I don't think it's super common, but I have seen that people have agents that represent different parts of their career, and often they try to do it in the same agency.

Krisserin 14:32

Yeah, that makes sense.

Kelton 14:35

All right, let's talk about data.'cause now we're just blown smoke up our listeners' ass about things we've read once. Let's go back to our incomplete study of 60 debut authors. Listen, Emily Zips, I loved this. I loved.

Krisserin 14:46

it was really interesting and I, appreciate her putting some numbers to things that we all know much about. I texted Kelton and the average book deal was a two book deal for an advance of$50,000 I told Kelton if that's what I, if that is the best that I can do with my books, I might just hang up my towel$50,000 for the amount of the years and the time that I spent on these books. I would cry, I

Kelton 15:20

Well also'cause that you would not get that$50,000. You know, you get like.

Krisserin 15:25

of it would go to my agent and then gets 40% of it, and it's just, I couldn't pay for my kids' summer camp. Okay, let's put it that

Kelton 15:34

Yeah, but I mean, I think some of these conversations are so fraught because people are like, you should be grateful you got anything at all. And it's like, yeah, yes, but we as a collective of artists should be looking at the field and being like, Hey. That's not enough money to live on because like, you know, the, the expectation now is that every working writer is also working a job. And you know, and with musicians and with actors, anyone putting their work into art. Everyone's like, well, you should, you should be smarter and have a marketing job on the side. And it's just like, God, you sound so American. You sound so American. Can you hear the capitalism strangling your heart inside of you?

Krisserin 16:20

Yeah.

Kelton 16:21

I think, you know, being realistic about what. What money accomplishes, because I know, at least for me, I, there's still this part of my little reptilian brain who's like, a hundred thousand dollars is the perfect salary. You know, there's like 12-year-old me who's like, once you make a hundred thousand dollars, everything is great. And it's like,

Krisserin 16:42

in like 2005 or

Kelton 16:44

yeah.

Krisserin 16:45

you know, but not

Kelton 16:46

Yeah, but it's like things have, inflation has changed, rates have changed, mortgages have changed. I think the point is that everyone listening to this is in the literary field and like I just. What is it? Rising tide lifts all boats. We just wanna argue for a living wage. So I hear you. So you get a two book deal for 50 grand over the, that spread over the course of a couple years minimum, and that when you take out the, all the money, you're getting like maybe 30 KA year, um, to pour your heart and soul into something.

Krisserin 17:24

daycare.

Kelton 17:25

No, no.

Krisserin 17:27

No,

Kelton 17:29

Um,

Krisserin 17:30

the cost of putting your kid in daycare. You would make more money just keeping them at home at

Kelton 17:34

well, Ben,

Krisserin 17:35

than, than

Kelton 17:35

and I talk about that a lot. Ben is like, should we, should, Ben has basically said, should I table my career, in woodworking to just raise woods while you work? And I'm like,

Krisserin 17:48

Other benefits to daycare, the socialization and the

Kelton 17:50

Totally.

Krisserin 17:52

the

Kelton 17:52

Yeah.

Krisserin 17:53

get and bring home.

Kelton 17:54

Yeah, the immune system building, but you know, like these balances with, with money. However our despairs translated, I really loved Emily Zips opening line to what does the data say where she said, my great pleasure in life is turning feelings into color coded charts. And so it was just like such a joy to. Read through some of this and just like feel the people out there.'cause the one thing that really stuck out to me, when she asked how have sales been, and she like tracked.

Krisserin 18:28

a little subjective, right?

Kelton 18:30

Well, that's why I liked it. That's what I was interested in, is'cause she literally just said it was vibes and seeing the vibes of these other authors who have what I want. They're debut authors. It happened. They did it. You know, and they still are like, and I was like, okay, okay. All right. All right. Everybody feels this way. Cool. That's what I'm looking for. Out of that. A Substack I read the other day about, a bookstore, she. Got a book deal and, and it's, she, you know, she screenshotted the publisher's marketplace thing and it said a good deal and I was like a good deal. I know what that means. You just made a hundred to 250 K. And it's so fascinating now.'cause obviously I, we've seen those screenshots everywhere for years of people announcing their book deals and I. Like, two weeks ago had no idea that so many of them were like, here's how much money I just made,

Krisserin 19:33

Yeah,

Kelton 19:33

is crazy.

Krisserin 19:35

I wonder why we're gonna have Lauren, our, our friendly agent on the pod, and we should ask her that. Like, what's the deal with that? Like, it's this like

Kelton 19:44

And some

Krisserin 19:45

contest on publisher marketplace.

Kelton 19:47

Some agencies don't do it. They don't disclose it. And I don't know if that's like, you know, out of kindness or they think it's tacky or like the numbers aren't as big as they want. You know, it's like, it could be a bunch of different reasons that you could extrapolate based on like looking at the agency, but. It's interesting'cause like there's no, you're not on LinkedIn where someone's just like, Hey, just wanna tell everybody I got a new job as director of marketing at Blahdi blah, and they're paying me 270 k plus options. You know, you'd be like, what?

Krisserin 20:23

for a director of marketing.

Kelton 20:25

Yeah. I mean, the analogy, the analogy fell apart, but I'm, I'm lifting all boats. Okay. I'm lifting every boat out there.

Krisserin 20:31

it. I love it. Go out there and, and get that money. Yeah, it was a really, really interesting study. But yeah, I don't know, man. It's almost like asking women about their birth story. Everyone wants to know, everyone has a different experience. Some just like pop'em out. No stitches and others have traumatic life altering, horrible

Kelton 20:54

It's a really apt, it just like, analogy because when someone is like, oh, I started to feel contractions and then we just drove to the hospital and five hours later I had the baby. No stitches. And then went out to coffee after. There is an undeniable part of me that's like, oh, fuck you. You know, I look, I'm happy for anyone who has a good birth in the end of the day. Like, truly, that's, please let, let it be that way. But I feel, when I hear the stories, I feel such deep envy for a smooth and gentle experience, you know? And like that's, I think, what is tantalizing about those tiktoks where someone's like, I queried five people and made seven K. You know? You're like, Hmm, how nice for you? How nice. Just love it.

Krisserin 21:48

I know

Kelton 21:49

But they're, you know.

Krisserin 21:49

them. We're a little

Kelton 21:51

And I'm like, jealous. I'm envious. I'm so envious. But you know, I wanna hear the birth stories. I wanna hear it.

Krisserin 22:00

What's also interesting is a lot of them are just completely not replicable,

Kelton 22:06

Well, I would say most of them

Krisserin 22:08

I would say,

Kelton 22:08

a,

Krisserin 22:09

like 90% of them are just things that are like, yeah. So I just knew someone and they introduced me to their

Kelton 22:15

mm-hmm.

Krisserin 22:15

that's how I got my agent. you know, and so that's what's hard because, my hope is that as we're having these discussions and bringing people on and talking about it, there is some little glimmer of information that our listeners can hear and try and it will work for them. But a

Kelton 22:35

Yeah.

Krisserin 22:36

it's not replicable. It's not something that someone else could go out and do for themselves. Even my

Kelton 22:41

Right.

Krisserin 22:41

replicable. Right. So

Kelton 22:43

I, I, I mean that, but the, I think at the end of the day, most of the stories do boil down to be involved in the community of the arts

Krisserin 22:52

yeah.

Kelton 22:53

and like, make

Krisserin 22:55

like, you have a lot of people reading your proposal right now. That's such a blessing and that

Kelton 22:59

mm-hmm.

Krisserin 23:00

to the fact that you have built community around you. And if, if anyone walks away from this, you know, listening to us about anything, it's that you need to go out and find other writers to be in community with. Because they're the ones that are going to be your cheerleaders. You're gonna be your first readers. They could also end up being your ops, but you learn from that too. You know? Even you need it. You absolutely need it. Teachers, mentors, peers, friends, to help you along because it's such a long journey and it's so hard.

Kelton 23:31

Yeah, and like I was reading something the other day about, you know, throughout the querying process, you never know who is going to move from being an agent to being an editor, to working in marketing at the publisher to being a writer again. And you also don't know that for you or your friends. Like one of the people reviewing my proposal, she and I met, had to have been 2011 on Tumblr. And had no, no like connective tissue other than being Tumblr girlies and staying like loosely in touch over the years. And as I was mentioning on Instagram that I was querying people. She DMed me to tell me about this entirely private aspect of her career that I did not know about where she's a co-writer. And I was like, what? And she was like, oh yeah, I'll read your proposal. I send proposals all the time. And I was like, I didn't even know that out. So, you know, it's just like, yeah, expand your art community. I do think it's weird though to, to be like, oh, now I, you know, if someone gets a book deal to be like, oh, you made six figures. How are you gonna, how are you gonna spend it? Whatcha doing over there? This is why I'm always listening to my favorite podcast. Krisserin, do you know this is Money for Couples?

Krisserin 24:50

Yeah, you've mentioned it before with

Kelton 24:52

Oh, can't stop mentioning. Yeah. Ramit Safety. Yeah.

Krisserin 24:56

safety.

Kelton 24:58

it's just like getting to hear about other people's finances. Ugh. Tickles a part of my brain.

Krisserin 25:04

It's interesting when you do have conversations about money because people do things with your money that you're like, oh, that's smart. I should do that.

Kelton 25:10

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 25:11

I didn't

Kelton 25:11

Tell me if you had burned down a building for$50,000 for a two book deal.

Krisserin 25:17

I said I was gonna burn down the building.

Kelton 25:20

Um, I will clarify for Krisserin, and she did not specify which building. It could just be her own building. Let's not get carried away, but

Krisserin 25:28

it's

Kelton 25:28

what,

Krisserin 25:29

space reference.

Kelton 25:30

is the number? What's like the dream number? Do you know it? Would you share it? Have you thought about it? I know Kim's asked you,

Krisserin 25:37

yeah, and I said it has to be six figures, but I even think low six figures would piss me off,

Kelton 25:42

yeah,

Krisserin 25:44

you know? Um,

Kelton 25:45

you want a good deal. You want a significant deal.

Krisserin 25:48

yeah. At least a significant deal.

Kelton 25:53

But the thing is like if someone offers you 70 5K for a two book deal, are you gonna say no? You wrote the books. This is something I think is sort of interesting about fiction is you already did it. The books are written and there is the room for them to be breakout successes and for you to make money later. I think we, I at least get caught up in like the only money I'm ever gonna make is the advance'cause selling out your advance is so hard.

Krisserin 26:20

so this is the thing, right? Mm. It's so funny, I was thinking of the comment that someone left on TikTok that was like$500,000 is in generational wealth. Remember that?

Kelton 26:32

Oh yeah. I replied to it

Krisserin 26:33

Yeah.

Kelton 26:34

and I, I mathed that person so hard. I was like, if I, someone gave me$500,000 today, oh, I can guarantee you I would turn that into general generational wealth for my child. That's how math works.

Krisserin 26:48

A hundred percent. I, so I think that the problem that I have as, I'm the same as you, I don't actually, if you sell out your advance or what happens if you don't sell out your advance, what's the, like, like how much money do you end up making on the other side? With royalties. I just don't know what that looks like. So for me, I'm like, the advance is what you get. That's all you get,

Kelton 27:11

Yeah. And like really successful people I've seen have shared that. They're like, yeah, I, I just got a royalties check for my book. It covers the last six months and it was for$800.

Krisserin 27:22

Yeah.

Kelton 27:22

And it, that's like a famous person I'm talking about. Well, famous. Famous in writing, but it's still like,

Krisserin 27:29

it like it's optioned or turned into a TV show or whatever, like

Kelton 27:33

totally. And you can. You know, you can make money from royalties. If you're like Sarah J. Moss, like, you know, it's like then you're, if you got a hotcakes problem, money's coming in.

Krisserin 27:45

Yeah.

Kelton 27:45

But I think most people are like I I some, I have heard some people say that they hope. For a smaller advance because they can sell it out, which means they will get to write another book. Because if you get a huge advance and can't sell it out, or don't get close, then they're not gonna buy another book from you and that.

Krisserin 28:08

that publisher is not gonna buy another

Kelton 28:10

Yeah. Yeah. But you know, it's like that's, I don't know, that's a bunch of math that I'm not, I, that's down the battlefield for me. I don't need to worry about that.

Krisserin 28:20

Yeah. And honestly, like I, there's part of me that's like, yes, I think if I were to get an offer for 70 5K for two books, and it was the only offer I had, what, what am I gonna do about that? I'm gonna say no, I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I guess it depends. It all depends like, who's the publisher? How much marketing support am I gonna get? What doors is this gonna open for me? I think that there's a lot of considerations that go into it. I don't think I'm gonna, turn down money just because I have a, an idea in my head of how much money I wanna make. but anyhow, I think that like, at the end of the day, the money's not what I wanna focus on. It's the other stuff, it's the like holding my book, seeing it in a bookstore, being able to talk to people about it, the opportunities having a book opens for me. The things that I get to do once I do have it. so

Kelton 29:19

Once you officially become author,

Krisserin 29:23

Author,

Kelton 29:24

author.

Krisserin 29:29

Yeah. I just wanna get better at writing. I wanna write like Isabel cans. I want to go to an MFA program and immerse myself and write things that people respond to and relate to. And that's what I want. And if the money comes. That's great too, but I'm with you. I, we should get paid for our art. It's just not guaranteed in this world, in this capitalistic world that we live in. You know, I saw a thing that said, the value of a stay at home mom is the equivalent of like$285,000 a year.

Kelton 29:59

Saw that too. I saw that too

Krisserin 30:02

I

Kelton 30:02

and was like, where's,

Krisserin 30:04

job?

Kelton 30:05

I know, uh. I saw that.

Krisserin 30:12

I also saw this thing on TikTok it was one of those like leftist debate conservatives, and the prompt was a woman is never gonna get as much fulfillment in a job as she will get, being a mother, raising a child. And the woman was

Kelton 30:26

Okay.

Krisserin 30:26

yeah, the woman was like, listen, I would love to stay home and not have to work and like be able to do whatever I wanna do and, and dedicate time and energies to my kid. But in the capitalist society that we live in, can your husband afford for you to do that? we don't value women's contributions in the household enough to actually make it viable for them to do that. And it's true. And I think that we are not only writers, but we are also moms and we're working moms and you know, as much as wanna be purists about it and say like, the money doesn't matter. I'm just an artist. Like us, how we spend our time does matter because our time is really expensive. We have very limited amounts of it.

Kelton 31:13

Also you would, you would have to shoot me in both feet to get me to be a stay at home mom. So.

Krisserin 31:18

well, I wouldn't mind being a stay at home mom as a writer. If my

Kelton 31:24

Yeah, but then

Krisserin 31:25

and I'm writing while they're in school and then I'm doing all the other stuff, I mean there is like the intellectual stimulation of work, but I want it to be my work.

Kelton 31:34

I don't, I guess I don't consider being a writer with almost a full-time schedule while your kids are in school. Also being a stay at home mom. I hadn't really thought about it in like you in a school way.'cause I'm, you know, I'm in the toddler days. If I'm a stay at home mom, that means I'm with him from the moment he wakes up to the moment he goes to sleep and there is no time for writing. I think like the reality of being a stay at home mom when your kids are in school can be a little different. You do get to have like a joy career during your days. But like, if you were like. If you told me right now that like all of a sudden Ben makes enough money to support the entire household and more, and you just get to stay home with woods all day, no more daycare, I'd be like, no, no,

Krisserin 32:24

No, that sounds

Kelton 32:25

no, no. And I like. Yeah, I love him, but like, I love being a writer and like I, if you're gonna ask me to, like, if someone was like, you gotta list all your identities and your Instagram bio right now, I would not put mom or wife first. I would put writer like by a million miles. And that, like, to me, that does have, has no impact on how much I love my kid or how good of a mom I am. It's just like that's who I am.

Krisserin 32:54

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 32:55

and that's personal. That's very personal to my identity. Um, oh wait. I'm just wondering. We have said, I would talk about Instagram for a while.

Krisserin 33:08

I wasn't gonna say anything that was on your goals for last week, that you had to talk about it this week.

Kelton 33:14

That's, I didn't even write it down. All right. I, let's talk about it.

Krisserin 33:18

Spill.

Kelton 33:20

Okay. So I started a new Instagram because my previous account was shadow banned. And then when I started the new Instagram, I started at Guns blazing. I got 600 followers right away, and then I got tired.

Krisserin 33:35

incredible.

Kelton 33:37

I, I got tired

Krisserin 33:38

that's quite a feat though.

Kelton 33:40

and like, I did most of that just by making, I was like, I'm gonna make more viral content. That's like, based on the kind of writing I do, and I'll bring people in who love my writing. And I did that for like two weeks and then I got tired.

Krisserin 33:52

Yeah, it's

Kelton 33:52

And I was like, would it have made more sense to use that content? On the Shadow Band account and pay for it to try and promote it to break out of shadow Ban Jail. Everything I have read has said that Shadow Ban Jail, like once you're in it, unless you are, unless you can like talk to Instagram offices as a famous person, they can't fix it. It won't fix itself. But querying one of my friends was like. Don't worry about the engagement. You're trying to get someone to like pay attention to you say that you have 48,000 Instagram followers. And so that is what I did and now I have these two accounts and I'm like, which 1:00 AM I supposed to be working on? And it also, it's like there was also nothing I wanted to post in January. Like I, I just had to like realize that like I am a writer and not a content machine, and it was taking so much time to create assets for Instagram and I was just like, what am I, what am I doing? I don't even want to be on here. I want to occasionally post a nature photo and a photo of my kid and be like, look, look. Pretty, you know, and it's just like, I, I don't know. I don't know what to do.'cause now I have asked all my favorite people to come over to this new account and so I, I feel, obviously, I feel a little shame and embarrassment being like, just kidding.

Krisserin 35:18

Speaking of two accounts, you can have a personal account and a public account, you

Kelton 35:21

yeah, but which one is which?'cause the reason I created a new account was for that to be the public account. And now I have this.

Krisserin 35:31

public account and a insider's account, if you really, you know what I

Kelton 35:35

Ooh, listen to this marketing framing. I do love that. Uh, and I, you know, it's, I, I, I just, I just don't know what to do.'cause I. I think the problem is like, I obviously don't wanna put in the work to the new account'cause it just turned out to be too much unpaid work and I was, I just don't, I literally didn't have enough time for that. Like, I, I have a lot of work to get done in the wee hours between my child and it, it ended up being just unsustainable.

Krisserin 36:10

Gonna tell you what to do.

Kelton 36:13

what are you. Am I gonna like it? Okay.

Krisserin 36:16

yeah, because it, the, gonna tell you to do is do nothing. It's a, it's a, it's a lot. It's distracting, and you need to be working on your proposal and you

Kelton 36:28

Yeah.

Krisserin 36:29

followers on Instagram,

Kelton 36:31

Yeah.

Krisserin 36:33

that's, that number is ticked off and it serves its purpose.

Kelton 36:37

Yep.

Krisserin 36:37

a great job of engaging people on substack, which is probably a better place if you're going to spend time. content to do it on like the note section there. You know, honestly I think you don't need to do anything. You've not done anything for the month of January and your world hasn't imploded. Nothing's really, nothing negative has happened. So

Kelton 36:59

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 37:00

to keep doing that and worry too much about it.

Kelton 37:06

That's not really, it doesn't really fit my vibe.

Krisserin 37:09

I know, but you know. I,

Kelton 37:14

I know.

Krisserin 37:15

just give yourself permission to leave it for now.

Kelton 37:20

Okay.

Krisserin 37:20

like set it down and focus on your writing, your chapter summaries instead.

Kelton 37:28

that's right. Maybe I'll ask my agent what I should do.

Krisserin 37:32

A I, you know, and I think that it'll. As you have more clarity on what's going on, you'll have more stuff to talk about naturally.

Kelton 37:42

that's true. That's true. So Krisserin's gonna keep tagging me in both accounts.

Krisserin 37:49

That's fine. I don't

Kelton 37:50

Um, gosh.

Krisserin 37:56

It's okay. It's all right.

Kelton 37:58

Yeah. I.

Krisserin 37:58

don't have to be firing on all cylinders at all times. That's a lot to ask of yourself. I know you want to. I know when I say that, you're like, yeah, I can fucking do it. I, I know you Kelton in the back of her head. She's got this little hamster wiggle.

Kelton 38:11

Yeah. I'm like this, like V eight engine, you know, I'm like, we are firing on all cylinders. Okay. What's the point of having a V eight? So, uh, I think that's fair though. Um, I, it's hard, you know, it's hard for me to enact balance in my life, but I, you know, things move forward and I am working on the chapter summaries. That wasn't even a goal of mine specifically. And I did do something, I also worked on the novel, which

Krisserin 38:36

I

Kelton 38:36

wasn't a, wasn't a goal, but it felt, it was, it was calling me.

Krisserin 38:41

I love that. I wish I

Kelton 38:44

Yeah.

Krisserin 38:44

write right now.

Kelton 38:46

I, I will say I was more called to think than I was to write. Um, I wasn't doing like the, the real writing. I was doing a lot of like background plot stuff. Like what, why is this person there? Who is this person? Like what happens here? How does this curse work? Like those sorts of layers. Um, but that. That felt fun and it, it felt necessary. So, lots of balls in the air and somehow I still have to write an essay for this Sunday, and I'm in the middle of hosting the class right now.

Krisserin 39:18

Yeah, you got a lot going on.

Kelton 39:21

Mm.

Krisserin 39:21

got a lot going on. Your in-laws are at your house.

Kelton 39:25

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 39:26

a lot going on. Well, with that being said, what, what gentle goals are you, are you giving yourself for the next week? I.

Kelton 39:35

I don't know. Why don't, why don't you pick my goals?

Krisserin 39:37

Oh, um, I think you need to finish your chapter summary so that you can query more people.

Kelton 39:43

Yeah,

Krisserin 39:44

Yeah,

Kelton 39:45

yeah,

Krisserin 39:46

gotta be your goal. Your your one and only goal.

Kelton 39:49

Yeah. I think you're right. I'm dragging my feet on it. I, I've not enjoyed working on it. It's. We've talked in, in the past a lot about pantsing and outlining and chapter summaries are such outlines, and it just to me is such a vibe killer. Uh, I'm like, can't we just see where it goes

Krisserin 40:12

Well, you really only need it for the purposes of purposes, the purposes querying, and then once that's done, those things can change. They're not fixed, you know, so

Kelton 40:26

Yeah, but it's like,

Krisserin 40:27

of

Kelton 40:28

it's, it's more that like coming up with the outline is what I don't like doing. I know it can change, but it's like I, I would rather just write it than write. Like shitty short versions of each essay. That's basically what a chapter summary is. It's like, here's the action point, you know, here's the, here's the moral thesis of it, and it's like, oh, it was so fucking boring. Just let me write it. But I, I wanna get paid to write it.

Krisserin 41:00

Yeah, because you can't write it now, it would take you a really long time.

Kelton 41:03

take me a really long time. So I have to write the chapter summaries, but, and I think part of it is that like

Krisserin 41:07

to

Kelton 41:08

the chapter summaries feel like lies to me. Part of part of it is that, that it feels like I'm just making shit up and I, I am, you know, inherently that is what writing is, but I, you know, it just is like, it reminds me of when I was in grade school where I had a math teacher who was like getting really mad at me because I would just write the answers on the homework and not show any work and no, I'm not gonna show my work, my work's in my head. And so she, to shame me, wrote a bunch of problems on the board and was like, okay, write the answers down then. Because she thought I was cheating. And then I just went up to the board and wrote the answers down because I was like, lady, I told you I'm doing the work in my head. I don't need to show you how I did it. I can look at the problem and know the answer. Um, obviously I really,

Krisserin 42:03

teacher.

Kelton 42:04

no, this was like seventh grade. Yeah.

Krisserin 42:06

Oh, I thought you

Kelton 42:07

Seventh.

Krisserin 42:07

grade.

Kelton 42:08

No, no, no. Seventh.

Krisserin 42:09

what a bitch.

Kelton 42:12

This is seventh grade. So she's like.

Krisserin 42:14

in second grade, I was like, I would be really bad at this teacher if she treated my

Kelton 42:18

No, no, no. This woman was like, just tired of like little, preteen gremlins, of which I was one. But you know, that's like how I feel now. I'm like, just let me write it. It's gonna be good. I don't need to show the work in advance. Just trust me.

Krisserin 42:32

You're such a Capricorn. It's so funny. Like how?

Kelton 42:36

I know. I know. Through and through.

Krisserin 42:38

Through and through. I wonder if there's a way that you can make it enjoyable.

Kelton 42:45

Well, if you find out, tell me

Krisserin 42:48

many do you have to write?

Kelton 42:50

there's like a nine left probably. I have them like loosely outlined, but it's like I have to mine, I have to mine my life to think about. The structure of each of them. So I just, I just, I'll just sit down and do it. You know? It's like, maybe I only get three of them done.

Krisserin 43:11

yeah, I mean a little at a time, but what if you gave yourself a little treat for each chapter summary that you wrote? little, treat

Kelton 43:19

What, what little treat am I giving myself?

Krisserin 43:21

mean, it could be a cookie, it could be buying yourself a coffee

Kelton 43:27

Girl, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that anyway.

Krisserin 43:30

Okay, but maybe just a little bit more than you would normally do. Like maybe you get a little whipped cream on top or you know, just like little things to treat yourself. You told me to take myself out on a date and to treat myself, and it sounds like you need to romanticize this proposal process a little bit to make. Encourage yourself to do it. that is your goal. Not only do you have to write your chapter summaries, but you have to celebrate each little

Kelton 44:01

Yeah.

Krisserin 44:01

summary that

Kelton 44:01

Okay. All right.

Krisserin 44:04

that tone. I don't like that

Kelton 44:05

Well, I, I will tell you

Krisserin 44:07

doing that shit.

Kelton 44:08

only, my problem with this is that I have no problem frequently treating myself like I It's,

Krisserin 44:15

same thing

Kelton 44:16

but

Krisserin 44:17

when you

Kelton 44:17

you weren't doing it. You weren't doing it. You, I do it all the time. Every time I'm in town, I get a chai latte. I'm like, girl, you deserve it for being you.

Krisserin 44:27

what if you, got your nails done or went to a thrift shop and bought like a, a cute little bracelet or, I don't know, think

Kelton 44:37

Okay, well, I can think the most Capricorn thing I could do is every time I finish a chapter summary, I'll move a hundred dollars into my savings account.

Krisserin 44:46

I hate that.

Kelton 44:49

Sounds amazing to me.

Krisserin 44:51

I hate

Kelton 44:51

the end, I'll have paid myself$900

Krisserin 44:54

Okay.

Kelton 44:55

savings account. That's cool.

Krisserin 44:57

something with it?

Kelton 44:58

No, I'm gonna save that high yield savings account. Girl, I'm make an interest.

Krisserin 45:03

See. I'm like, Ooh, what could I, I could buy like a couple pairs of really nice shoes for that.

Kelton 45:10

No, girl. I don't. I don't buy shit.

Krisserin 45:12

I don't buy anything I like. I, I spend all my money like thrifting or usually thrifting. That's how

Kelton 45:18

I buy stocks.

Krisserin 45:23

Elton buys stocks. I buy silk scarfs. That is the fundamental difference between you and I. I'm like,

Kelton 45:35

Okay.

Krisserin 45:35

something pretty.

Kelton 45:38

All right. My goals for next

Krisserin 45:40

want dividends.

Kelton 45:41

I know, I'm like giving them dividends, baby. This book isn't gonna sell itself. We gotta make some money over here. What are your goals? I'm gonna do the chapter summaries as many as I can. I'm not gonna query anybody this week. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna work on the chapter summaries and I'm gonna write my Sunday essay and that's it.

Krisserin 45:58

Yeah,

Kelton 45:58

What, what are you gonna do?

Krisserin 46:00

don't think Shangri Locks can be in your goals you're gonna do that anyway.

Kelton 46:04

It is true.

Krisserin 46:05

That's cheating.

Kelton 46:07

Cheating.

Krisserin 46:07

That's cheating. Uh, I don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm talking to Kima tomorrow, so maybe she'll gimme

Kelton 46:16

Ooh.

Krisserin 46:17

Probably will gimme some homework.

Kelton 46:18

Yeah.

Krisserin 46:19

whatever Kima tells me to do, I will do the good little soldier that I am, rule follower. And I can't conceive of anything else. I will say that I. I got confirmation that my application for IAIA is complete, complete, complete. They called me this morning. They're so nice.

Kelton 46:40

That's so nice of them to call you.

Krisserin 46:41

Yeah. They're like, we're just missing one transcript. And I'm like, I sent it on this date. Like, oh, we see it. Okay. You're good to go. It's getting submitted to the MFA director. I was like, these people are so nice. I get a call from Santa Fe on my phone and I'm like, Hmm, I wonder if

Kelton 46:56

Hey,

Krisserin 46:56

of American Indian Arts.

Kelton 46:58

you didn't tell us if you, which, um, which, uh, book sample you used.

Krisserin 47:04

I ended up using Parasocial'cause it's just

Kelton 47:07

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 47:09

so edited

Kelton 47:10

Mm-hmm. Nice.

Krisserin 47:12

And reading this Isabel, I think it's Canas'cause there's a Nye Over the n in her last name book has really made me think about the Gusta novel and like how I want. How I want it to breathe. She does this incredible, everyone needs to go read this book and then tell me when you read it because it's that good. She does this incredible thing of like infusing backstory into scenes so seamlessly that you don't even realize that you're reading. Kind of like expository backstory in the middle of a scene.'cause it's just so well woven into the action and I'm like, damn, I wish I could write like this. So anyway, I'll

Kelton 47:54

Will you spell her?

Krisserin 47:55

praise.

Kelton 47:55

Can, can you spell her last name for me?

Krisserin 47:58

It's CA Nye a s Isabel. Um.

Kelton 48:06

Mm-hmm. There we go.

Krisserin 48:07

I don't, don't really have any goals. Kelton, gimme some goals that are beside, I failed two weeks in a row to take myself on a library date, so

Kelton 48:17

Yeah, well now you're sick, so I can't recommend it.

Krisserin 48:20

Sneeze on people in the library. I.

Kelton 48:22

I'm trying to think, what should your goal be? You can't go out. You're meeting with your agent tomorrow. You're not doing any work on the Gustin novel right now.

Krisserin 48:34

No, I have this historical novel that I really wanna write. I really wanna write historical fiction, and it's

Kelton 48:40

What

Krisserin 48:41

a true person.

Kelton 48:43

Uhhuh?

Krisserin 48:44

That I would like to go and, and research a little bit about, but I haven't been giving myself permission to do that.'cause I feel like that is so far away. And I have

Kelton 48:53

Um.

Krisserin 48:54

my second, I have to like finish the draft, like final draft, my second book. And I'm just not ready to do that yet.

Kelton 48:59

What happened to the short story?

Krisserin 49:01

I am so lost on how to finish it. I need to send it to you.

Kelton 49:05

Send it to me.

Krisserin 49:07

I'll

Kelton 49:07

That's your, that's your goal. Um, send it to me. Don't tell me anything. I don't wanna know anything about like, where you're struggling. Well, I know loosely, but like, I don't wanna know, like,

Krisserin 49:17

I'm struggling with. I don't know how

Kelton 49:19

I know, but

Krisserin 49:20

I'll

Kelton 49:21

I,

Krisserin 49:21

you the original

Kelton 49:23

okay.

Krisserin 49:23

ending.

Kelton 49:24

Okay, do that. Yeah.'cause then I can be like, you know, it's like I, at least one person has told me that my proposal is bad. Um, so like, maybe you just sent your short story to the wrong person.

Krisserin 49:37

I mean, it was my Harvard professor that was like, this ending isn't working. He's like,

Kelton 49:42

Yeah. But

Krisserin 49:43

until the ending is fantastic.

Kelton 49:45

wasn't it like Leslie Ton, who was like, who, who did we have on? Who was like, I sent it to my professor and they told me never to be a writer.

Krisserin 49:54

That was JT

Kelton 49:55

JT Ellison. That's right. And she's a fucking New York Times bestseller. So like, sometimes it's like it's the wrong person. I'm not saying this person has like bad taste, but I know you trust them.

Krisserin 50:06

Mr.

Kelton 50:07

are, what are you gonna do if I read it and love it?

Krisserin 50:13

I dunno.

Kelton 50:14

Yeah. Okay. Well send it to me and maybe I'll hate it. Um, is the book you've been talking about this entire episode, the possession of Alba Diaz.

Krisserin 50:23

Yes.

Kelton 50:24

Okay, there, we got it. We finally got it. Everybody check out the possession of Alba Diaz. By Isabel Kanas.

Krisserin 50:31

I'm only like 25% into the book and I'm like, Ugh. I hope it never ends.

Kelton 50:37

All right. I just placed a hold.

Krisserin 50:39

me of Mexican Gothic. It's very, it's kind of got the same vibe as Mexican

Kelton 50:43

Great.

Krisserin 50:43

if you

Kelton 50:44

Well, I loved that. Yeah,

Krisserin 50:46

yeah.

Kelton 50:47

I loved it. Um, five star rating. Yeah. On my, uh, on my Wilkinson public library account, so.

Krisserin 50:56

Nice.

Kelton 50:57

Okay.

Krisserin 50:58

Okay, this was a little bit of a meandering episode. If you're still listening. Thank you for hanging in there.'cause we just talked all over the place. We have quite a few interviews coming up. So Kelton and I will probably not have another, one-on-one conversation like this for a couple weeks. But, we will have our usual check-ins on our goals yeah, we would love to hear from you guys. If you have, by the way, if you have authors that, or you know, someone that you want us to interview, let us know. This is very much, I, this is our niche, I feel like. This publishing journey, how people got to their debut novel, as we try and, you know, work our way through the muck to do it ourselves.

Kelton 51:47

Yeah.

Krisserin 51:47

you can email us at official pen pals pod@gmail.com. Please do. We love to hear from you and follow us on all the, all the things at Pen Pals Pod. Where can they read your work? Kelton?

Kelton 51:59

They can read my work at shangrilogs.substack.com. They can read your work krisserin.substack.com. They can follow me, Kelton Wrights or Kelton Kin, um, and they can follow you on TikTok at Chris.

Krisserin 52:17

I hate it. I hate

Kelton 52:19

Yeah, I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. Oh God. All right. Um, it's a pleasure to have you guys here. Remember, if you like this podcast to share it with people because that's the only way that Art succeeds now is through your sharing it. So tell people to listen to this podcast. Have'em start from the beginning, um, and uh, or start wherever they want cares, um, and give it that old five Stars for Krisserin.

Krisserin 52:47

For me, if, if you're doing it for Kelton, it can be four. All right, everybody. Happy

Kelton 52:52

writing.