Cait Flanders: From Blog Experiment to Bestseller (and Back Again)

Kelton gets her first agent rejection and refuses to sugarcoat it—while Krisserin shares what she learned about advances, deal structures, and editor wish lists from her meeting with agent Kima Jones.

Then bestselling author Cait Flanders joins to tell the unlikely origin story of The Year of Less—how a blogged shopping ban went viral on Forbes, attracted six literary agents, and became a Wall Street Journal bestseller now resurfacing on TikTok a decade later. Cait gets refreshingly transparent about advances, earning out, switching publishers, and the real tension between maintaining a SubStack audience and carving out space to write her third book.

Plus: middle grade fiction advocacy, a genre-busting reading challenge, and why Kelton’s only goal this week is to read a book.

Find Cait Flanders:
Website: www.caitflanders.com
Substack: caitflanders.substack.com
Instagram: @caitflanders

Books by Cait Flanders:
The Year of Less (Hay House) — Wall Street Journal Bestseller
Adventures in Opting Out (Little Brown Spark) 

Books Mentioned in This Episode: 
“October, October” by Katya Balen 
“The Names” by Florence Knapp 
“The Housemaid” by Frieda McFadden 
“Annihilation” by Jeff VanderMeer 
“Lady Tremaine” by Rachel Hochhauser 
“The Ogress and the Orphans” by Kelly Barnville 

Write to us:
officialpenpalspod@gmail.com

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

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Krisserin 0:00

Well, hello there, Kelton.

Kelton 0:01

Hi Krisserin.

Krisserin 0:02

Well, um, we got on Kelton's, like it's really dark where you are. You should get a ring light. I have a ring light on. It's raining in Los Angeles, which, you know, it doesn't happen often. It's pretty cold outside. 50 degrees.

Kelton 0:16

It was 50 degrees in my house last night. Okay.

Krisserin 0:20

Ugh. probably slept well though,

Kelton 0:22

No, no kidding. I was freezing

Krisserin 0:26

Oh,

Kelton 0:28

and socks on, and a hat and a baby.

Krisserin 0:31

oh my gosh. No space heater. You guys need a space heater or something?

Kelton 0:35

We do have a space heater, but the wind storm was so brutal and it lasted for two days and it just sucks all the warmth of the house. So sun is up today. It's still absolutely frigid in the house. But once the sun is up for a few more hours, it will be warm in here. So I.

Krisserin 0:50

Amazing. You know, there's a saying in Bulgaria, I don't know the saying in Bulgarian, but when it's like really cold but sunny, it's the type of sun that your donkey would die in.

1:03

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Krisserin 1:18

I love it.

Kelton 1:18

I think there's like a, a Nordic saying that's like, there's no bad weather, only bad clothes.

Krisserin 1:23

Yeah, that I've heard.

Kelton 1:25

yeah. And I'm wearing three shirts right now and I'm still cold, so

Krisserin 1:29

Oh, I'm so sorry. Here I am in my eighties sweater. No

Kelton 1:34

I like it. I love the vibe. All right. We have a lot to talk about. We have some, some fun stuff we're doing today, so we need to talk about our goals from last week. So Krisserin sent me her short story and the new pages of it, and I opened it on my phone and just read and read and read. And then, and then you were like, what did you think of the first ending? And I was like, what ending? And I, I had just read right past it. It didn't feel like an ending at all. So your, your Al Alpha Rita, or your story was correct. There wasn't an ending there. It did feel like, just like the beginning of the story and I just kept merrily reading along and I got to the end and I was like, I wanna read more.

Krisserin 2:20

There's not enough story there for it to be a book. So I need to figure out. How to end it honestly. The first ending was pretty violent. I'm surprised you didn't think it was an ending because there was like a kind of, you know,

Kelton 2:37

I guess in my writing there's like constant murder, so

Krisserin 2:40

Okay.

Kelton 2:41

I'm just like, well, yeah, that's.

Krisserin 2:44

That's funny.

Kelton 2:46

But all to say, I want the listeners to know that it was really good and really compelling and fun to read and like great details and I'm so excited for them to get to read your book. I.

Krisserin 2:57

Oh, you're very sweet. Yeah, I am too. Hopefully eventually, someday. God willing. Um, yeah, that was fun to kind of, I just got like text messages from Kelton and I was like, what are you, I didn't even know what you were talking about. I was like, oh, she's reading my story. I get it now. Thank you for reading that.

Kelton 3:17

I loved it.

Krisserin 3:18

what your goals last week were

Kelton 3:21

I was gonna work well, no, it was to work on my chapter summaries.

Krisserin 3:25

summaries. So how did that go?

Kelton 3:27

I did, but I got a little derailed. Krisserin already knows this, but the agent who had reached out to me with interest got back to me without interest. Um, which is kind of what I.

Krisserin 3:39

exactly true.

Kelton 3:40

no. Let me tell the story how I'm gonna tell the story. She's not interested in developing it into a book that's without interest. I still love her. I still revere her, but I, you know, it, it kind of matched up with like, I knew this book would be a hard sell to her in particular, based on her wishlist. And then she also pointed out some, like, some reasonable flaws in the proposal of which I do not want to work on.

Krisserin 4:09

Well, she also, no, she said it was hard for her to see it as a book without chapter summaries. That's what she said.

Kelton 4:16

Yeah, but she also was like, your sample chapters, the parts you have written aren't doing what you say this book is supposed to do. And so that's not just rewriting chapter summaries, that's rewriting the parts of the book that are written. And, you know, she's, she did, she, you know, she said some nice things. I mean, like, one, it's amazing for an agent to give you any advice at all. So for the fact that she read it and had substantial advice and then apologized for not having substantial advice, I was like, get outta here, girl. You were very helpful. And she also said, it's difficult to sell a memoir without, a researched angle. Which, ugh, I, I know she's right, but it just, we've talked so much about how I don't feel like I wanna do that. And then, you know, she said she would be interested in reading it again if I developed it further. Which is great and then I did tell her in response to that, you know, I was like, this is very helpful and I think very fair and generous of you, given it's my first time trying to ride into the rodeo. And then I did tell her the funny story about seeing her in my Scrivener file. So, you know, and I, as I told Krisserin. It's my first agent rejection, and it was the most promising agent connection, so I had to wallow a little bit. So I did get work done on my chapter summaries before I got that email, and then after that, after that email, I was like, I, I need to just like not do this for like a couple days. And I had texted it to the rejection to our guest today as well. 'cause she is the friend who has been helping me on my proposal. And she also was like, go do something else for a couple days.

Krisserin 5:58

Yeah.

Kelton 6:00

So.

Krisserin 6:00

it's, it was funny, when Celton texted me about, I was trying to, of course, in my like, typical way, see the silver lining and the feedback that was given and. Kelton, I think typically you have a little bit more of a, a doom and gloom response to things, and so I was trying to be positive and she was like, just let me be dramatic.

Kelton 6:23

Yeah. I was like, I, I need to feel the feelings in order to get them outta my system. And I, you know, this was one of the reasons I had been so protective of my nervous system around this is 'cause I was like, the most likely response is no. And like, I do feel like I did myself a favor by being like, it's not gonna happen. But it's still, you know, you still want. You want the ease. You want someone to just go, yeah. Yeah. And sinking into the reality that this is a game of nos is challenging.

Krisserin 6:58

Yeah. So with that said, I have a question for you

Kelton 7:01

Hit me. Yeah.

Krisserin 7:03

Okay. I've been thinking about it a little bit and there's really, I think, two ways of going about this nonfiction book. And I feel like there's a memoir path there's a nonfiction book path, which is a little bit more academic and researched. And it made me think of your friend who was like, you can't call it the ecology of whatever if, if you're

Kelton 7:26

Yeah. You can't use the word the word, you can't use the word ecology in the title if you're not an ecologist.

Krisserin 7:32

And I think that there is a part of you that wants to bear credence and you have these like real ideas about how the world works that you wanna talk about in your book. But you don't wanna do lots of research. So that I think is at odds with each other. And then on the other end, you have personal anecdotes that you're telling about how you found home, which you are an expert in. And I think that you're trying to ride the fence of both ideas.

Kelton 8:00

Yeah.

Krisserin 8:00

Wonder if it would serve you more to focus more on your personal story of how you found home sprinkle in some of these ideas, but not give your memoir this framing of like, these are the five ideas that I'm gonna talk about and here's how I'm gonna tell the story. 'cause I feel like that requires more research and the type of

Kelton 8:20

Yeah.

Krisserin 8:21

wanna do.

Kelton 8:22

And you know, part of it is that I don't wanna do. The research on this idea, I feel. There's, you know what? I'm actually not gonna share the reasons. I don't wanna do that type of research. I wanna spend more time in my head thinking about how I would articulate them to a wider audience. But I think the other end of the spectrum where it becomes just personal memoir, very, very hard to sell. And I would work with probably a small indie press and not get in advance, do the book for free and, sell to the 400 people who'd buy it. And I, you know, to me, I have to be honest, that path to authordom, being an author again, I've already written a book. That path is not interesting to me. It doesn't make any money. It takes a ton of work. It has no credence to it. It's, it's deeply unlikely. That book would just become a runaway success for no reason. So without some kind of commercial framework, I don't know that this idea is worth pursuing. 'cause those essays could all just be on Shangri Logs where I already get paid.

Krisserin 9:23

Yeah, I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with that because I still think that this concept of finding home is marketable, but we can let you marinate on that a little bit. I just think that if you do wanna go the other route, you are gonna have to do

Kelton 9:37

Yeah.

Krisserin 9:38

homework.

Kelton 9:39

Yeah. I just, I'm still being a bitter little bunny. Um,

Krisserin 9:44

You're allowed.

Kelton 9:45

yeah.

Krisserin 9:46

You're allowed.

Kelton 9:47

Yeah.

Krisserin 9:48

and just to speak to that a little bit, I did have my meeting with my agent it was very enlightening. I learned so much. It was such a great conversation. So one thing that I will say is like we chatted a little bit about book deals someone that we know whose first book deal was. Less than Emily Zips average that we talked about last week. basically got published by a Big five publisher and got no advance, like very, like And she's gone on to publish so many books since then. It opened so many doors for her.

Kelton 10:25

Yeah.

Krisserin 10:26

and so is something to that,

Kelton 10:30

Yeah, totally. And I mean, I, I also saw another future guest of ours, Courtney Mom. She wrote in her newsletter the other day that her advance on a book of hers I love was $4,000. But that book has. Utility. It's a book that you can check off the shelf for the next like 10 years, use it. It's not a novel. And I think those books have a different lifespan. But she was taking that small advance. It kind of like unlocked the rest of my career to a degree and obviously ask her about that when she comes on the show. But, um, I hear that point. I'm just like, I'm still just disappointed. So it's gonna color up. All my feelings for the next several weeks.

Krisserin 11:14

but also this is one agent's rejection

Kelton 11:17

Yeah, and I'm gonna feel like this.

Krisserin 11:21

No, you can't. I'm telling you, I mean, I think that like, this was a, a and I, and I felt the same way. Like I reached out to an agent on a book that she had interest in, and she was like, I'm no longer interested. And so I feel I under, I completely understand where you're coming from, but we have to like, you know, build ourselves up because, the rejections are gonna keep coming

Kelton 11:44

Yeah, but I also, I think.

Krisserin 11:46

generous than this one, you

Kelton 11:48

Yeah, you have to recognize your own system for success. And for me, getting mad works as fuel. It's just, it takes a second to convert the fuel.

Krisserin 11:58

Okay.

Kelton 11:59

I know that this is how I operate and I, I just gotta respect it a little and be mad at myself and be disappointed in myself because that is what spurs me onto greatness. I don't want a pat on the back, you know?

Krisserin 12:12

I'm not patting you on the back, but this is not a fail. You're a, this is not a failure for you. We've I?

Kelton 12:19

A failure

Krisserin 12:20

No. Kelton.

Kelton 12:22

every time you don't get a job, is that not a type of failure?

Krisserin 12:25

No. And you know what's funny, and I don't know if we talked about this last week, but you know, how on social media be like a year ago? You posted this thing, I got that notice on the pen pals TikTok, where it was like a year ago. You posted this video and it was a video of you talking about agents and how it's like dating and sometimes you sit down and you have a meal and you're excited about it, but it's just not your person and you can't take it personally. You gotta like shake it off and move on to the next one. So that was literally you a year ago, and now that you're in it, you're not taking your own advice.

Kelton 13:02

still agree with the sentiment, but you still have to have that time where you're like, he fucking stood me up. He dumped me. He didn't like me. You know, it's like you do. I, I, while I still think that applies, because while I had those feelings in dating, I was dating other people, you know, and that is what I will do now. I will keep querying, I will keep working on the project so that I can pitch this woman again. Um, but, uh.

Krisserin 13:27

to send it back, like to

Kelton 13:28

Yeah, and like, you know, it's just, I have to have feelings in the middle. I think it would be so disingenuous for me to come on and be like, well, I got my first rejection, and I'm so happy to just be part of the process and keep going. It's like I, I gotta, I gotta be mad while I'm swimming in this fish of sea,

Krisserin 13:48

Sure. Sure.

Kelton 13:49

my little fins.

Krisserin 13:50

listen, if I've learned anything in my 41 years of life, having, I think four best friends who are Capricorns, that you kind of, you can't argue them out of how they feel about anything. And I, I know that you have to sit and feel this way, and it's, just as like someone who's a, who tries to be, I don't know. I don't wanna describe myself in those terms, but like, I see what you do and I'm just like, be a little bit more gentle with yourself because it's not, there's so much out of your control and it's not a hundred percent on you. It's so much also on that person that you sent it to, and extenuating circumstances that you have no insight into, and it might just be, you know what

Kelton 14:33

Sure. But being gentle,

Krisserin 14:36

bit of that.

Kelton 14:37

no. Being gentle with

Krisserin 14:38

little bit of grace there.

Kelton 14:40

being gentle with myself has never gotten me anywhere. And so I'm just, you know, I, I did take some of your advice and try to like romanticize doing the work, um, this past week, but I, I gotta, I gotta use my fury, um, to get back out there.

Krisserin 15:00

Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Kelton 15:03

We have a,

Krisserin 15:04

I failed. I'm a failure.

Kelton 15:07

well, you know, you, you're not gonna shake that outta me.

Krisserin 15:09

that would just shut me down. I would just like roll over and wanna die if I thought about things that way. But that's why we're different. That's why

Kelton 15:17

Yeah,

Krisserin 15:17

people.

Kelton 15:18

that's why we're great co-hosts.

Krisserin 15:20

True. True, true, true. Um, yeah. Well, you know a little bit about what I talked with Kima about, 'cause I feel like she answered so many questions. First of all, I didn't realize that your bonus gets paid out in increments. Did you know this? Bonus signing. Yeah. Some will do 50 50 at the signing at the pub date. Some break it up into four increments, which is like signing when it's delivered and accepted when the hard cover gets published and when the paper gets back, gets published. Um, you don't earn any royalties out until you. You know, make up your advance and, I guess Tupac deals are, they like work differently and get paid out in a more extended timeline. So it's actually not great have it done that way. We also reviewed some of the deals that, you and I have talked privately about the, like significant deals, et cetera, and we looked at those editors at some of the different, publishers and we looked at all their deals. So we're like, okay, so this one was a seven figure deal. And then we like looked that editor up and all the rest of their deals were small. So she said, a lot of times what will happen is a publisher will have a budget and they'll blow all of their budget on one book and then everything else gets pennies. And it's very common for people to get like $30,000, $40,000, et cetera. It just, it happens. So, um, especially with big five publishers, so. It's really, it was really enlightening. We went through a list of all the editors that we would consider, and the one, like, she kind of, she knows many of them and we talked about kind of how they work and, and what, what that would be like. And she's, you know, reading the book, the updated manuscript and the first. 65 pages of the second book and we're gonna meet tomorrow and I'll review a pitch letter and then we're off to the races.

Kelton 17:16

So

Krisserin 17:16

Um, yeah, so it was great. It was so, it was really great to touch base and get that download. And she took her time educating me on how all of this works. 'cause I did, I was like, I don't know anything. I don't know. Any of this stuff works.

Kelton 17:29

I'm so excited to hear about this process. It's so gonna be so, I mean, hopefully it's so fun.

Krisserin 17:34

God, I've, yeah. You know. Now of course all my tiktoks are people who have Asians going on submission and like hating their lives. It's like every part of this is so painful. But, we do have a, guest that we should do a little intro and, and bring her on for. So,

Kelton 17:52

We're having.

Krisserin 17:53

our guest?

Kelton 17:54

Yeah, we're having my friend Cait on today. Cait Flanders is a bestselling writer and speaker known for her thoughtful work on consumption money and intentional living, very aligned with the things I like to read and write about. She's the author of The Year of Less, a Wall Street Journal bestseller that chronicles a year long commitment to buying less and examining the habits beneath it, and also adventures in opting out, which explores stuffing away from hustle culture in search of a more sustainable life. And today she writes the widely read Substack, the Lighthouse, which focuses on money, creativity, living deliberately. And she's working on her third book. She is an internet friend of mine who I'm so happy to spend some time with on camera, a step up from the constant voice notes we are sending to each other about my proposal. So let's get into it. Here's Cait. I just read your bio. Um, so, uh, the audience will be fully acquainted with all of your amazing work. And, uh, Krisserin will cut out all the yammering

Krisserin 18:55

yeah, I, I added everything to make us sound good.

Cait 18:58

Great.

Krisserin 18:58

Sometimes you can hear the cat purring on the podcast if you listen close enough.

Cait 19:02

I've closed the door so that mine doesn't come in. She has

Krisserin 19:06

That's sweet.

Cait 19:06

when when you start talking on video calls, mostly with Andrew, like he'll start talking on a video call and all of a sudden she's meowing at him and he is like, we weren't talking two minutes ago, but now, 'cause I'm talking to someone else, you don't like it.

Krisserin 19:18

She wants the 10. They want attention. That's

Kelton 19:21

is something we have bonded over Cait and I, my and Cait's friendship. Um. Sort of initially revolved around animal life. Hedgehogs, coyotes, cats, et cetera. That connection to life other than our own was like a common through line in our writing and something that really drew me to you and then opened me up to your, your catalog of writing and I, I had mentioned when I was saying your bio, the year of Less in Adventures and opting out. They're just like, they're so resonant with me and so applicable to the way I choose to live my life. And conveniently with the year of Less, it now seems like it is applicable to many more people. Which is funny 'cause you wrote The Year of Less in 2018. Can you kind of talk us through loosely like the origin of that book and what's happening to it now?

Cait 20:15

Yeah. Well, and in some ways I wouldn't say I wrote it in 2018. It was based off of an experiment that I blogged about from 2014 to 2015. So now we're talking over 10 years ago. And you know, like I was 29 years old when I did that. And so the experiment at, at that stage, like certainly of my life and, and what was true for me or what kind of mattered to me at that, at, at 29, it feels so young compared to where we're at. It is, it was just like this very simple idea to not shop with the hopes more than anything that I could actually save some money because I didn't identify as like a shopaholic or anything like that. It was just like I, I could tell that I kind of binge consumed or like, yeah, like I had a history of binge consumption and so it was just like this little experiment though of like, I, I don't really seem to be able to get ahead. I'm making okay money. I should be able to be. Doing something, putting some amount in savings, I never seemed to be able to, so I was like, what if I just do this little experiment where I don't buy anything for a year? I blogged about it. and of course now the reasons that people are doing it. Or like, it's, it's quite a big movement right now is like they're different and there's a lot behind it, you know, between cost of living, maybe political statements people are trying to make, like there are all kinds of reasons why people are trying to buy less or just buy from different places or avoid certain places altogether. AKA Amazon, there, there are certain movements that are happening right now, which. Make a lot of sense. I think especially the cost of living thing, like everything obviously has gotten so much more expensive post pandemic. and, but yeah, it, it's like obviously I could never have known that any of that was going to happen. But yeah, like so they're, they're different, right? Like the reasons I did it were so different compared to what's happening now, but it does just happen to be lining up.

Kelton 22:21

Yeah, I mean, it's amazing that 10 years later you're still talking about a blog experiment.

Cait 22:25

Truly, truly like, and also something I never thought I'd still be talking about,

Kelton 22:30

How does it feel to have an older book like reenter in the conversation?

Cait 22:34

I guess in a way. It. It has always come up a little bit every year since it came out. I think because it was a year long experiment. It is something people are drawn to reading in January every year. So sort of like December, January, every year since it has come out, I have had a little bit of uptick, right? It's like, oh, you've got some new followers all of a sudden, or. yeah, or have people, reach out to you saying that they've just read it, they're gonna try something kind of similar that year, that's happened a little bit every year. What's more interesting right now is I'm, I don't really feel like I am contacted by in the same way. So like, in a way I would never have known, like last year I figured out it had kind of gone viral again. else told me. So like I had, I had a reader, like a long time reader of mine, so like of my newsletters, et cetera, like who reached out to me and she was like, oh, by the way, I saw you're in like the top 100 on Audible something or other. And I'm like, what? I'm, and so then like I went and looked and I'm like, yeah, she's right. that's weird. Like what's going on? And then you kind of look at say like Amazon Audible, like in all the countries, and you're like. What's happening here? And then it was people telling me like, oh, they're seeing it all over TikTok. And so I, you know, I just, I had no idea that it was happening. for how it feels, I mean. I think I'm like quite detached from it because like once a book is out, it's really not yours anymore. Like that, that is true. At least like with nonfiction, like it's not yours, it's what people are gonna take from it, what they need from it. so like I do feel quite detached and like certainly I don't have, or I'm not the reason it's going viral, it just happens to exist. I don't really feel anything. I guess like I am grateful that the resource is there and then. If we're talking about writers and how we make a living, the reality is like, extra sales is great for me. but the, I don't, I guess I don't really feel a lot about it. It's more just like kind of fascinating to watch and enjoy the ride while it's happening. 'cause you also know how fleeting it can be.

Kelton 24:42

Yeah, and there's a real lag with, royalties, right?

Cait 24:46

Oh yeah. I don't actually know how many copies sold. Last year. Year. I know how many sold in the first half of the year, but I don't know anything about the second half of the year yet. And I'll know wise, I'll know that I think at like the end of March then physical and eBooks, I'll know at the end of May or June. 'cause those were separate deals.

Kelton 25:10

That's amazing. That's so fascinating to me that in our modern system, takes six months to add up.

Cait 25:18

Yeah, I mean, traditional publishing is probably one of the most archaic systems that still exists. and I don't know if there's a lot of, chance of that changing or at least anytime soon.

Krisserin 25:28

have to know how many they're selling. They're just, are they just not sharing that information with you? Is the question the information trickle down takes longer to the actual author because working in consumer packaged goods, I know within. Seven to 14 days how much we sold in retail last month.

Cait 25:45

Yes. Yes. I think part of it is, yeah, the system, even royalty statements. Are very confusing. Like audio is the clearest 'cause it's straight up just like this many, this many downloads. You're like, great. Like, that's so clear. although I do feel curious how Spotify's coming into the mix, like I don't think that that's clear on statements.

Kelton 26:09

Surprise, the Spotify's not clear about its business model.

Krisserin 26:13

Yeah, right.

Kelton 26:14

Shocking.

Krisserin 26:16

Shocking.

Cait 26:16

they've, I don't, I don't have Spotify either, so like I, I've never used it, but understanding that they have 15 hours or whatever that people can get of audio books for free. But like what if someone listened to two hours of the Year of Less or adventures and then like, do you get paid for partial? like I have no, I have

Krisserin 26:35

That's such a great question.

Cait 26:37

Yeah. I, I genuinely have no idea. So it's all, yeah. I also wonder with physical books, how long it takes for them to calculate returns, because those, those are on your statement. Like it'll show what's sold, but then it'll also show like just a large number of like minus 800 or whatever for the ones that were returned. I dunno.

Kelton 26:59

Wow. Wow. Something I don't have to worry about yet.

Cait 27:02

Uh, yeah, but it'll be really fun when you get to look at your first statement and you're like, what does any of this mean?

Kelton 27:08

Can you take us back in time and just walk us through your original path to publishing? What did end up taking this from blog to book?

Cait 27:17

Uh, well, I mean, it was, I don't like to like. Like downsell myself here because I, I know I put in some amount of work here, but it was sort of one of those classic stories from back in the day when blogs could go viral and so I had been writing about the experiment every month or sometimes every two months. Like I wasn't really that invested. I would write some kind of progress report every month or two of like kind of what it had been like Like long story short, I did an interview with someone who I knew worked at Forbes, like just the website, I did an interview with her for something else, like to give her a quote on somebody else that she was writing a profile on, and she was like, oh, and how's that little thing that you're doing? And I'm like, oh yeah, it's all right. Like I'm almost done. She was like, oh, like let me know when you're close to being done and like we can do like maybe a profile on that. I'm like, okay, that sounds cool. And like really didn't think that much of it. and then we did the interview, sent her some pictures to go with it, and she emailed me the day that it went out, which was July 6th. 'cause I did that, my birthday. My birthday is July 7th. So it was like the band was ending like that day and she released it and she sent me an email with the link and just said, just FYI. These things have a tendency to go viral. I didn't really know what that meant. I very quickly learned like what it meant, of just like, yeah, people picking it up, like all the publications kind of picking it up and sharing snippets and whatever. and within two weeks though, I had been contacted by six different literary agents asking if I wanted to turn it into a book, and I had no idea what to do with that because that had not been my plan. Like I did not do the shopping ban so that I could get a book deal and write a book about it. like it was genuinely just an experiment that I was doing on my blog. And so, yeah, I, I really didn't know what to do like with that.

Kelton 29:14

How did you end up choosing an agent then? I mean, so like, to not be even querying and then to have like minimum six offers to not even have been investigating the field. Like what, what was your path?

Cait 29:26

I reached out to one friend in Canada. 'cause the other thing too that I was so curious about, like, I'm Canadian and all the agents in quick research I could figure out, they were all in New York. So actually my first question was like, can we work with people who are in the States? Like how does that kind of work? And so I had one Canadian friend that I could think of who had published a book maybe a year before, and I reached out to him and I was just like, can I ask you some questions? And I was like, and also, where is your agent from? And in the end, actually he connected me with her. because she was like, I'd be happy to talk to Cait, could answer any questions that she has. Now, you also understand why, like, it's like if an author is or a writer is like getting interest agents wanna get in, right? Like, it's like that's part of their business and

Kelton 30:15

Yeah, this author's like, oh, I'd be happy to answer some questions. Send her my way.

Cait 30:21

Yeah. But. Well, no. What I loved so much though was like, she gave me incredible advice. She said, talk to all of them, like set up calls with every single one of them. you interview them and remember like it's so easy in publishing to put agents, editors, publishers, like on this pedestal, but she's like, but you want to feel like it's a good fit. And her number one piece of advice was choose someone that you could imagine going into a long-term relationship with, you don't wanna write just one book, or maybe you do, but like, if you want to have longevity, if you want to have a career at this, you don't wanna work with someone just once and then never talk to them again. try to imagine like, who could you have a long-term like committed relationship with? Which was great advice. And then she said, and if you don't like anybody, I'd, I'd be happy to like talk about working with you as well. So anyways, I took all the calls and it was actually really clear on my insights, who I felt comfortable with and who I didn't feel comfortable with. There was one other who I was like, no, they're pretty interesting. They felt very down to earth, like, I need someone who's. to meet me at my level. And what I do find, or like something I have found, I guess in some publishing environments is like sometimes people like it feels to me in ways like they're talking above me. And I'm like, I don't think I'm going to be that kind of author. I don't think I'm going to be like the esteemed literary author, you know? And I'm like, I need someone to just talk to me at my level because I'm Cait. Like, just talk to me like Cait. And anyways, I picked Chris's agent, Lucinda, she is who I ended up working with, probably not surprisingly, because she was just the most down to earth, she was the easiest for me to talk to.

Kelton 32:04

You have said some really wonderful things about her. In our time talking about my proposal. Krisserin and I, in the intro of this episode, we're just talking about, my first rejection, my first agent rejection that I shared with you this week. And again, how it's like dating, and like your right to call, like a long-term relationship. You gotta wanna be in the trenches with them. And you know, I was telling Krisserin and I was like, I still. Don't like to get dumped, you know? Especially by someone I like. So like, I, I agree with that analogy, but, it's, it's,

Krisserin 32:38

to counsel her not to be so hard on herself and she wasn't

Kelton 32:41

oh,

Krisserin 32:41

me

Kelton 32:42

I, you know, it's impossible.

Cait 32:44

I

Kelton 32:44

but

Cait 32:44

I'd like to say too.

Krisserin 32:46

say them.

Kelton 32:47

yeah, you're welcome to say them. Well, I should tell our listeners, 'cause I have been like, touching on this topic for weeks, that Cait is the one who has been helping me, figure out how to approach my proposal, because you have had two successful, like somewhat memoir adjacent nonfiction books, and you've been successful in that. And so your advice has been like really helpful to me. But, yeah, it's like, it's still just my first rejection out of the gate is one I have to pile onto many. Unfortunately I don't have like a cool experiment that people are latching onto. So.

Cait 33:22

Well, but actually it's probably a good segue to say that like even though all of those agents were interested in. I then worked on a proposal with Lucinda, worked on the proposal for the Year of Less, which like as you are, are learning. Like they're no joke, it's like a 40 plus page document. Typically in the end it is a huge amount of work that goes into this thing that might get rejected by everybody.

Kelton 33:47

At many levels.

Cait 33:49

yes. And so even though Lucinda and I got it to a place where we were like, yeah, like this, this feels good. I could write this book. Only one publisher wanted it. So even though all the agents think this could be a thing,

Kelton 34:05

Yeah.

Cait 34:05

actually all the publishers are like, nah. And then only one said yes. So

Kelton 34:11

amazing.

Cait 34:12

It's just so interesting. Like yeah, like yes, people had interest, it went viral and you know, agents think it could be a thing. Doesn't mean any of the publishers thought it was gonna be a thing. So.

Kelton 34:25

so funny. I mean, I did wanna ask, you've been super open about. Money in terms of your publishing journey. Can you talk to us a little about your early advance and how long it took to sell out?

Cait 34:38

I think that, even my relationship with the book, I think has been so confusing for me to navigate since the start because of things even like expecting to write a book ever. Right. So like, for that reason, had zero expectations, almost probably very bottom ones, like very low expectations. So then anything that did happen is still sometimes confusing to like, figure out how to talk about. But, so the advance was 35,000 us. But they, they didn't, or they chose not to buy audio. And so that sold separately for 10. But

Kelton 35:15

Interesting.

Cait 35:15

was interesting because in the 35,000 advance, they also said if you could sell, remember how many copies. It was like x number of copies though, in the first six months or year or something. Or like maybe just whenever, whenever it hits that, we'll give you a 10,000 bonus. we could just say 45, as long as I sold x number of copies. And I don't, I don't remember how much that was. It might have been like 10,000 or some, I'm really not sure. I'd, I'd have to go back to figure that one out. But, the book like really took off kind of right away and it sold. I think, 'cause I just looked at, I've been looking at my old proposals now and I think from in the, my second proposal, it says that it sold 77,000 copies in the first six months. Now a huge chunk of that, I think like 40,000 or more was eBooks. And that was like little things like, it got a, a push from a newsletter that had a lot of subscribers and then if they did like a promo at some point the first six months, so where it's like 3 99 or two nine or whatever, and that sold a bunch. So eBooks were huge in the beginning. I, I out earn. my first six months. And so I got the bonus and then I immediately, I mean not immediately because royalties are quite delayed, like did immediately start earning royalties after that. Now that has not been true for my second book, so my second book. will, I don't think I will ever out earn the advance. And it wasn't that much. It was a hundred grand. So like, it's not like it's nothing, it's, I think once you do start seeing how the numbers can stack up, you're like, oh. It doesn't, it doesn't take an enormous amount to hit that people could out earn a hundred. You can out earn that. I, I don't think we ever will on adventures. It came out in September, 2020 and I think anyone who published a book in 2020 knows that like, unless you were Glennon Doyle, like no one was buying your book.

Kelton 37:36

Yeah.

Cait 37:36

sort of like, unless you were like the top authors who happened to have something coming out that year. Yeah, like you were just, people were not buying your book. I mean, there were also a lot of movements that were really positive, happening. And so a lot more books from people of color were being purchased and there was a lot of like political stuff happening and that was all good. And I think also all good for the publishing industry. But yes, like it was sort of

Krisserin 38:04

Yeah.

Cait 38:04

Most people aren't selling anything, and then they all just kind of went away. Also because like publications folded, people stopped doing their podcasts, like it was impossible to get press. Whereas like that was the total opposite for the year of less. Like it was, it was almost like too easy to get an interview. Um, but there was absolutely no appetite for. Like in 2020, like that was just, that

Krisserin 38:30

lot going on that year. Yeah.

Cait 38:32

a lot

Krisserin 38:33

There's a, an, election in the US a global pandemic. What I did notice is, the Year of Less in Adventures and opting out were published by two different publishers. Is that right?

Cait 38:44

Yeah.

Krisserin 38:45

When I talked to my agent last week, she was like, when I got my book deal with Knopf, I was like, I wanna be at Knopf for life. You know? So how did that end up shaking out, having done so well at hay House and then ending up Little Brown Spark for your second book.

Cait 39:02

Yep. So it was, so when, and this is common, at least for like nonfiction. You'll often with your first book deal, just the publisher will want write a first refusal, like they'll want to be able to see what you're doing next first. So I did all of that. Like I, I knew what my idea was. you then can write like a short proposal to your current publisher. So I think it was like 10 or 15 pages time and, and kind of outline like what you're gonna do, what you'd like. know, yeah. What you'd like your second book to be. They have 30 days to say yay or nay. and Hay House passed on it. And so then I wrote a full proposal. We actually still sent it back to Hay House so that they could see the full thing. And it ended up being a bidding war between Hay House and Little Brown Spark. and so then it was just me deciding I wanted to try working with someone different, I, really love my editor from Hay House, but I think, like, I didn't feel that connected to the publisher and some of the other things that they were doing. They were doing anything bad. It's just sort of like, it, it doesn't connect with me. And so I was kind of like. like to try working with someone different and who's publishing books that feel more aligned. And so I thought I would give it a shot in the end. I'm like, I don't know that it would've been different. I do think Hayhouse has an incredible inbuilt audience that, when they promote their books, like they do sell to their audience, but I don't think that. almost like, like people are fan followers of Hay House and they'll like, like ascribe to anything that they sell, you know? And I don't think that's true for a lot of publishers out there. So it is interesting to kind of reflect on some, like, some of those differences. But yeah, I just kind of wanted to try something different. I really connected with the editor at Little Brown Spark. What's quite funny now is that she is at Hay House and now both my editors are at Hay House. Um. so like it is, and I have no problem saying this. I actually like really would love for my next book to be with Hey House. 'cause I would love it to be with them. Like one of them like

Krisserin 41:17

Yeah.

Cait 41:17

would be amazing. So yeah. I really loved though the thoughts that my editor at Little Brown Spark, who's now at Hey House had, and so yeah, I just wanted to, to try, but.

Kelton 41:30

So tell me, your next book. I know it's like really early days, if you can tell us anything. I would love to hear even just how you're approaching it, because you and I are both substack, girlies, you know, and that audience can feel really demanding, you have to constantly have output for it. And so like how do you carve out this other time for this third book, where did the idea come from and how did it feel like a book and not just like a substack series.

Cait 41:59

Well, I think now that I've done two, you can understand what would have to go into a full book, versus just, you know, maybe. posts, 10,000 words spread across or something like, I think that you can figure that out or like, I feel confident that it is a full book, but if I were to speak to what you're talking about, I would say that this is the biggest challenge for me right now is trying to divide my time between the projects. Because the reality is, and this is almost like, these are reflections and I'm trying to understand like. Is this actually who I am or can I do it differently? But my reflections from the past is that when I've been working on proposals and drafts. I have not done anything else. It's like my brain cannot, I cannot go at least into the like short form versus long. I, I did have the odd bit of like client work with the year of less, like when I was working on that one, so I did have to juggle that. But there was something about that that was almost easier to compartmentalize. It's like Monday, just get that stuff done and I can just not think about it for the week or whatever. Whereas. I think because like newsletters or blogs in the past, like they are, it just feel like they're kind of like a growing entity. Like it is, there are people, there's, there's something that, there's an energy to it, right? Like that is a little different than say client work. I don't know how to juggle the two. So it, it's a thing I'm really. I'm trying to sit with right now because my gut is to just stop. my gut is like, just take a two month break and only focus on the proposal. What I'd say is like, I'm trying to challenge that because also I, we gotta make money. I gotta, and like, I actually don't think my audience expects me to show up the time. I've expressed stuff like that before and people come back and, and like if I reflect on my own, like if you wrote once a month Kelton, I would just be happy to be able to read what you felt like sharing that month.

Kelton 44:10

You know the rare times that I have. Skipped a Sunday. People have dmd me to see if I'm okay. So like my, a lot of my audience is like 8:00 AM Sunday morning. I'm expecting that newsletter

Cait 44:26

interesting.

Kelton 44:26

and that I, which is amazing, amazing. I have those kinds of readers and like, I, I cherish that and I, but I also, like, I fucking hammered that schedule into them too. I was like, from the very beginning I was like, you are going to get this newsletter on Sunday.

Cait 44:43

Yes.

Kelton 44:44

it's interesting to have an audience, if you can. Just release that tension a little bit. Let the line out a little bit, to allow yourself some grace period so that even if you're like, for the next two weeks I am just gonna think about this, and then the day after those two weeks is over, I'll just write from the heart into the newsletter and click send. So it's, it's interesting to hear you balancing it that way. 'cause I am obviously like underwater trying to do all the things I'm doing.

Cait 45:12

I do think it takes, it's like it's trial and error. It's letting the odd week pass and you look at the numbers and you're like, they haven't changed. It's OI didn't lose half my subscribers 'cause I didn't show up for a week or two.

Kelton 45:27

Mm-hmm. You lose more subscribers from writing than you do from not writing.

Cait 45:31

yes, you do. It's very true.

Kelton 45:37

Yeah.

Cait 45:37

I think, um it takes a little bit of trial error, but like for that trust to like build up in your body that like, it's going to be safe to like, take the time off. But I'm, I'm still in it right now, so I'm very much, uh, like pulling back slightly. I've written out for myself three things I will write for the next two months. So like three things a month. But I've like written that down of like, I will do one of this, one of this, one of this, and

Kelton 46:04

Yeah.

Cait 46:05

And I am just trying to stick to that because it's so hard is like, you can be reading something and you're like, oh, I should write something on this, or I could tell this story, da. And

Kelton 46:13

Mm-hmm.

Cait 46:14

just put it away. Put it away. Put it away. Because like it's, I don't know. But I still, the first thing, every time when I sit at my laptop, the first thing I open is Substack day. and so yeah, like it's, I'm, I'm just trying, I'm trying, I can feel that the progress has started in the past couple weeks where like today I sat down and like I wrote a thousand words in the proposal, and you're kind of like, that was awesome. Like, I didn't do any substack today. I just sat and wrote a thousand words. But I think like we are in a, we do live in a world where like output usually results in money and it's really hard. When you are self-employed, I've been self-employed for almost 11 years now. Like, it's really hard to take steps back knowing that like, like even though I have lots of, of history to tell me that I'm not gonna lose all my income if I take a little time off It's still there. It's still in the back of my

Kelton 47:10

Yeah. And with Substack, it's also the audience that sells your book.

Cait 47:16

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Kelton 47:17

you know, like I, I, I can't help but like think about that every time I'm working on the proposal that the audience I've built is like part of what will sell the proposal. Um,

Cait 47:30

that's a good reframe though, to remember though. It's part of it

Kelton 47:33

yeah.

Cait 47:33

yes, your diehards are gonna pre-order your book or they'll just buy it the first time they go to into a bookshop and see it or whatever. But like. They are just part of it. It is like so important to remember that like, if a publisher really loves your book, they are gonna market it or they're gonna try and get you some interviews, like you'll get yourself some interviews. Like there are other things than just the newsletter. I know that my old blog definitely helped get pre-orders, it wasn't the only thing. But so yeah, just almost take like the tiniest bit of pressure off of it. It's like it's not everything,

Kelton 48:08

Yeah. So

Cait 48:09

of it.

Kelton 48:10

what is it to you? Like, is Substack your lab? Is it your safe place to write? Is it a business? Do you, you know, obviously we both get income from it, but it's not enough to cover my, my bills.

Cait 48:21

No, no,

Kelton 48:23

So like how do you categorize substack? 'cause you've also been really fluid with your substack. You've changed the title, you've changed the format, and you know, from the, the outside you, you have such like easeful flexibility with it. And, which I think is really nice because like your, your readership is getting that email. Whether or not the, the only not is if they choose to click unsubscribe, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter so much what it's called. Um.

Cait 48:50

that's

Kelton 48:51

like, talk to me a little about that. Like what is substack to you and like how are you so easeful with changing it?

Cait 48:58

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, without, it's almost like, without too much backstory, something I can say is that like I had a, like a traumatic experience in 2019 that resulted in me not writing for three years. And so when I went back, like when I joined Substack. It was very much for me, a feeling of I just actually wanna come back to a writing practice. So what? There was no feeling for me of like, and it's gonna be this thing and it's gonna make me a bunch of money and I'm gonna write about these topics. And I didn't have like a content strategy or like, I had no, uh, yeah, idea of what I was going to do or what I was gonna write about. It was just like, I just like, I almost just miss being a writer. I wanted to get my writerly brain back and that actually took a long time. Writerly brain being like, when you're walking out in the world and something, you see something and you're like, oh, I could use this analogy and I could piece these things together. Like honestly, I was on Substack for like a year and a half before I felt like that was actually coming back. so I would say it has been a safe space. That's what it has been for me is like it was a place I moved my old email list who I had written to, I don't know, four times in like three years. So I moved my old list over and just started writing and I had no idea what I was doing. And so all of it has been just me coming back to writing. Figuring out how, I mean, honestly the first couple years there was so much happening for me that it was actually just quite depressing probably. And like I ended up like archiving like a hundred plus posts because I'm like, I don't actually want these to be out there anymore. I just needed to write, like I just needed to write and get things out. But it very much like we're a safe space. So like there are lots of posts that I would've only shared with paid subscribers. and now it feels different still. Right now I'm experimenting with it just being a paid only thing, means there's like, I don't know, 12,000 people who will not be getting most of the emails I send out, but that feels very right for where I'm at now. I think I'm in an interesting place and I'm, I'm starting to wonder if it. Is because I could see that this book could become a reality. And maybe I'm going a little bit inward, almost like a little bit of protection. I'm not, I'm not sure, but like I think that there is something happening for me of like, I've been sharing my life very publicly for like 15 years and I'm starting to feel like that feels done. And so I don't know what it looks like long term, but I'm just kind of experimenting with it being a smaller audience for now.

Kelton 51:50

Love that. I mean, for the book, do you have a reader in mind? Are they. As your substack audience is your paid.

Cait 52:00

Yeah. Yeah. And probably lots of readers. Probably lots of readers. I think that that's been interesting for me to notice as I, the more I've been working on the proposal is like without giving too much away, it's like I actually almost see how it like perfectly bookends with the year of less. Um, and it almost feels like a nice little trilogy or maybe like adventures went off on a bit of an adventure. but like the two feel like they could be bookends to something that I could then tuck aside and just be like, that's what I wanted to say on those topics. And now it's all over there. So,

Kelton 52:38

Well, that makes me super excited. I can't wait to see what the book is. I'm ready for my Lander's trilogy.

Cait 52:48

I dunno if there is such a thing as like a nonfiction trilogy, but like, let's roll with it.

Kelton 52:53

I love the idea. Uh, so talk to me a little about like a sustainable creative life. I mean, it sounds like you are, you're like working on that, but that's like a lot of your writing is about what is sustainable, what is being inhabited in your life. So how do you do that creatively?

Cait 53:11

That's a good question. It, it makes me think of that, that values quiz that you, shared in a substack once, which I then went and did. And how it was actually quite shocking for me at first when I read the results that was like. I the, like, my number one value was basically like putting joy and pleasure first. And I, don't, I don't know why it surprises me so much. 'cause if I then sit and like, take stock of a day or a week of my life, I'm like, no, I do do that. But that maybe 'cause it, that was a hard one. You know, like, that was like a hard one battle almost to be able to get to. So it's almost just like I, I guess. The reality is like over the past many years, it, I just do it for play. Like I want it to be playful and I want it to be expressive. I also don't give my creativity really to anyone else. like, I don't write for anyone else anymore. I'll edit like, and that's like, I guess a different kind, but sort of like my original ideas, like I don't give them, or I don't do that for anyone else anymore. Um, and I, I think that's been part of it for me was kind of like, it's just knowing myself. Like, it's like I don't think that I could do this, like what I really want, which is like to have, yes, multiple books. Like my, I, if I had big visions for myself, it's like I have a third nonfiction, then I'd try out maybe writing fiction for kids, try something else. Like I want it to all be kind of fun and playful, but for me that means. I can't give it all to somebody else, so I'll find other ways to make money, the writing isn't what goes to anyone else.

Kelton 54:55

I love what an advocate you are for middle grade fiction.

Cait 55:00

Oh

Krisserin 55:00

I love middle grade fiction. It's so good.

Cait 55:03

It is so good.

Krisserin 55:04

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 55:05

Um.

Cait 55:06

Yeah.

Krisserin 55:07

And it makes me sad because I volunteer at the library at my daughter's middle school and they're reading like aar and I'm just like, there's so much better appropriate fiction for these kids out there. I.

Cait 55:21

I'm

Kelton 55:22

Yeah, they're gonna.

Cait 55:22

I, we could have an hour long conversation on middle grade, but definitely an advocate for adults reading some, occasionally, even if it's like two a year. The amount of imagination and also, yeah, lessons and empathy and creativity that goes into middle grade is. It's mind boggling. It's so much better, I think, than anything we got to read.

Krisserin 55:45

think one of the best books I've read in the last couple years is a middle grade fiction book and I think the author's name is Ville. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Cait 55:53

No.

Krisserin 55:54

the Orphan? It is like one of the best written books I've read. And Kelton, you would love it 'cause the Crows talk, like all the, like there's a rock that's sentient, that talks the Crows talk and they are so full of themselves. such great characters. You would love it. But anyway, sorry not to go on a

Cait 56:10

No,

Krisserin 56:11

grade fiction tangent.

Kelton 56:13

I want Cait to take us on a few reading tangents right now. I want you to describe the reading challenge that you're doing 'cause I am like really enthralled by this as a way to like expand your horizons of books.

Cait 56:28

Yeah, it's again, it's just meant to be totally playful, right? Like, and so I'm having a ridiculous amount of fun with it. Like even so it was, it was all born from, I think one thing, which was like, well, maybe two things. One is recognizing I've so many friends who seem to have like these. Huge passions for things or they get so into things and it could be books or it's something else, a musician or whatever. Like they get really obsessed with something and, and like reflecting on the fact that I'm 40 years old and like, I don't think I've had that other than maybe whatever celebrity boy crushes I had at like 12. I don't think I've had anything like that since I was a kid. And. And so I was like sitting with that as a thought. Then also noticing, there are so many kinds of books that I avoid reading, but I don't actually really pay attention to why I think I do like make a quick judgment or something, and I just kind of push them aside. But I, I don't know, we could put, I put my curiosity, curiosity hat on and one day I was just like, what would it be like if I just read a bunch of things that I would normally never read? Like what would that experience actually be like?

Kelton 57:39

So what's the structure of the challenge?

Cait 57:42

So I've picked I'm doing it for you. I only, I think I'll probably only pick 10 genres though. I do know there's two months where I'll be traveling quite a bit, so I probably won't really read all that much, but I'm, so I'm picking 10, and for each month I'm just going to read a few books from that genre. And I'm just kind of paying attention to what my observations, including judgments or assumptions are. So I'm not writing like book reviews necessarily, but more paying attention to how it actually was and almost like what is my comparison between what my initial judgments were, or assumptions to how it actually was. And then it's, I genuinely have a curiosity of like made, like could I find something I really like that maybe I haven't been reading? And I, I dunno, we're only a.

Kelton 58:30

What are, what are some of the genres that you resist the most?

Cait 58:34

Oh, and I'll say it fully with my judgmental face so that we all can remember, this is who I was at the beginning. Romantic is a big one where I'm like, that's a hard pass for me. Like I,

Krisserin 58:45

A lot of really bad romantic. That's why

Cait 58:48

probably. Yeah,

Krisserin 58:49

yeah.

Cait 58:49

it's like, that's like a big one that shows up for me. Um, say fantasy though in general. I think like. I do actually, because I've been researching so many books. What I am noticing is that something happens in my brain almost like reading about all these like imagined worlds that someone's come up with. 'cause there's so much language that I don't think my brain understands at first. I think, so there's some kind of disconnect that happens almost when I'm reading the description. 'cause I'm like, what are they even saying? And so I'm like, I don't know how to get drawn in. So I'm like, there's something in that. 'cause I'm like, I don't think it's gonna be true that I don't like them all. think there's something though, almost in the packaging that isn't working for me. So yeah, the, it'll be, be interesting to see where that goes. And

Krisserin 59:39

A good, oh, all my favorite genres. A good, a good fantasy or sci-fi writer knows how to incorporate the world building in a way that doesn't make the reader struggle to enter into the story. So if you need some, if you want some recommendations, let me know.

Cait 59:56

Well, and I'll say like as I'm researching them, I'm then finding ones where I'm like, oh, I'm actually really excited to read that. Or like, then I'm remembering, well actually I've read a bunch of like kind of dystopian stuff that I have really liked, and so I'm like, don't know what it is about the label almost. That, that deters me. 'cause then when I'm researching some, I'm like, oh no, I feel very excited to read this book and that book. So yeah, it'll, but I would, I definitely take recommendations too. But it's, yeah, it's just, those are the ones that immediately, and I do think for me, there is something in the fact that it, it, it doesn't feel like grounded in reality or like something in the language that isn't immediately gripping me. Like I'm getting lost just in reading the description.

Kelton 1:00:37

That is how I felt, um, jumping from reading Throne of Glass and AAR to Crescent City.

Cait 1:00:43

Okay.

Kelton 1:00:43

I mean like real Moss heads, like love that series, that part of the broader Moss Universe. And I tried to read that book and was like, what the fuck is happening?

Cait 1:00:55

What

Krisserin 1:00:55

it's a very poorly written book, like Serji Moss is not a good writer. Okay, let's just put that out there.

Kelton 1:01:01

I, listen, I don't agree. I don't agree. I, I, I

Cait 1:01:05

anything.

Kelton 1:01:06

breezed through most of her series.

Krisserin 1:01:09

Twilight in a Minute too? That's

Kelton 1:01:11

No, no.

Krisserin 1:01:12

Oh really? 'cause that I read those books so fast and they were so badly written. When you go back and look at them.

Kelton 1:01:18

Yeah, but like, I think Moss is a propulsive writer. Like, I wanted to read that whole series immediately. And I do think that is good writing. Maybe it's not literary writing, but I will, I'll defend,

Krisserin 1:01:30

it's just

Kelton 1:01:31

I'll defend something bad if I think it's fun.

Krisserin 1:01:34

Sure.

Kelton 1:01:35

but, uh, I, I mean, I, I wanted to try, I wanted to try your challenge.

Krisserin 1:01:40

please.

Kelton 1:01:41

Look, don't start with that one. We have better recommendations.

Cait 1:01:44

like, don't I have to

Krisserin 1:01:46

No.

Cait 1:01:47

understanding what is popular?

Krisserin 1:01:49

There's really good romantic, like you should read that. torture yourself.

Cait 1:01:55

Okay.

Krisserin 1:01:56

Don't set your experiment up for failure. Yeah. By like reading bad, romantic. 'cause it'll just confirm your judge, your initial judgment of that. You don't wanna read it,

Cait 1:02:06

Okay.

Krisserin 1:02:06

know?

Cait 1:02:07

very fair. That's fair. Okay.

Krisserin 1:02:10

I will, I just wanna say, 'cause something you said got me really excited, which is kids like a picture book around the ideas of the year of less. Can you please publish that? 'cause I would love to give it to my children because they kids are the worst consumers of garbage and crap. And like I've had to institute a. Allowance system

Cait 1:02:35

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:02:35

I could curb their consumption. 'cause I'm obviously also to blame, but like starting to instill some of those ideas of what that does to themselves and the environment would be great. And I'm trying, but it's really hard. That would be a great kids book.

Cait 1:02:52

Yeah, it is really hard too though because, uh, and this part does make a lot of sense and I think 'cause you guys both, both have kids, you'll get, and Kelton you'll get this as he gets older is like, it's so hard for kids to get rid of things because what lives in their room is their whole world. they don't understand, like, it's not a big deal. Like, it's like that is their whole universe.

Krisserin 1:03:20

like there's a toy they haven't touched for a year and you're like, I'm gonna send this to Goodwill. And they're like, not that stuffy. That's my favorite stuffy. And then for a week, it like is attached to them and then they forget about it again. like, well,

Kelton 1:03:34

Um, a lot of one in, one out already. He has a giveaway box and he gets to take it to his

Cait 1:03:39

cool.

Kelton 1:03:39

friends who are younger. Um, so we're just, we're trying. It doesn't mean it will stick and it doesn't mean that he won't develop these like huge attachments, but we are trying in the beginning,

Cait 1:03:51

Yeah.

Krisserin 1:03:51

hard.

Kelton 1:03:52

put that in the box for Peter.

Cait 1:03:54

Oh gosh.

Kelton 1:03:55

Not with books though. I am like, you want a book? We're gonna get that book.

Krisserin 1:04:00

I, I do buy books Without resist. Yeah, without

Kelton 1:04:04

I will alright. So tell me top three books you're thinking about right now, not your own, what's in your mind, what's on your nightstand?

Cait 1:04:11

Oh, okay. So, well, thinking about a nightstand, they're almost like different questions. So I would say two books that I have enjoyed the most in the last and like enjoyed, and also because like you finish it, just thinking. Oh my God. Someone wrote that and also like, in some ways it was so simple or like the idea was so simple, but like, a great idea. One is actually middle grade. It's called October, October. The author's name is Kaia Ballen. Den I think you would really enjoy it is it's about her living in the woods with her dad. And it, it, it also like her writing is so fast paced, like you just. It's just so raw. It's so good. And it was one of the first books where I was like, middle grade gets to read what? Like, it was like, we didn't get books like this, I don't think. So that's one that has like stuck with me. The other was, I just read, I think it was like November, December, I read. The names by Florence Snap, which is like getting a lot of coverage right now. But like the idea is, so I don't know if either of you have read it like it's so good. It's about her. She is pregnant with her second child. She knows what she wants to name it. Her abusive husband knows what he wants to name it. And her daughter who's like, dunno, five or something, that when he is born knows what she wants to name it. And what she does is she shares the three names and the chapters follow what the, what their lives would be like.

Krisserin 1:05:39

That's cool.

Cait 1:05:41

all of this, so it's like, if it was this name, this is what happened. And

Krisserin 1:05:44

Mm-hmm.

Cait 1:05:45

name, this is what happened to everybody. It was

Kelton 1:05:47

That's so cool.

Krisserin 1:05:49

That's cool.

Cait 1:05:50

be like, she did it so well.

Krisserin 1:05:53

That's cool.

Kelton 1:05:53

Can you believe that one of my names, one of my names was gonna be Molly,

Cait 1:05:59

okay. I can't see that now.

Krisserin 1:06:02

You would've

Kelton 1:06:02

add up now.

Krisserin 1:06:03

you were a Molly for sure. I was almost a, I was almost Kelly, so that would've been,

Cait 1:06:09

Wow.

Krisserin 1:06:10

I know.

Cait 1:06:10

me the names, like if I was a boy and I was like, why? And why? One of them was Dustin, and I'm like, that is so eighties. Like,

Krisserin 1:06:19

It is.

Cait 1:06:20

so

Krisserin 1:06:20

We are children of the eighties, so yeah.

Cait 1:06:25

Yeah. Um, and then the other one that's so what's on my nightstand right now? I'm just gonna put my judgmental hat on and be like, it is, it feels like it's garbage. I picked it up from the little free library in our like little village. It's one of, her name's Frieda McFadden. She writes like a lot of

Krisserin 1:06:42

Oh yeah, yeah.

Cait 1:06:44

and it's the Housemaid, which

Krisserin 1:06:46

Yep.

Cait 1:06:47

most popular book. And I pulled it very much with a thought of like, I might like it, I might not like, I'm not sure if like kind of they're gonna be right for me. And like five pages in, I was like. This is garbage, for, for me, right? Like, that's my opinion. I'm like, I just feel like the character development is so lacking, that I'm like, I don't know how all these things are happening. It just feels very rushed, I guess would be the word

Krisserin 1:07:14

They made a movie out of it.

Cait 1:07:16

yeah, it's

Krisserin 1:07:17

Yeah.

Cait 1:07:17

it's a big thing right now. So these are the moments where like I, I read things that are so popular and then I'm like, wrong with me that I

Kelton 1:07:25

This is what I feel about half of Substack.

Cait 1:07:28

Yeah, yeah. No, that's true.

Kelton 1:07:31

You are like.

Cait 1:07:31

like, I'm, I'm like 50 pages in and I'm just sitting with that thought of like I could rush through it 'cause it's so easy. So I could finish it and kind of see what all the fuss is about, but I'm not sure that I want to,

Kelton 1:07:45

Alright, well I loved this. I wanna talk to you forever. But can you tell the listeners where they can find you?

Cait 1:07:52

Yeah, I mean, I'm on Substack and I'm on Instagram, so Substack, I think actually both are under my name, right? Like Cait flanders substack.com, and Instagram's just at Cait Flanders and those are the only places you'll find me

Kelton 1:08:04

What a dream. So simple. Hey, it was such a pleasure to have you on. I love seeing you in the flesh, even digitally. Thank you for, for being such a friend to me and to the pod and, we will talk about my proposal soon.

Cait 1:08:18

Yes. We'll, yes. We'll friend it. So nice to meet you, Chris.

Krisserin 1:08:22

Nice to meet you, Cait. All right. Bye. Kelton, I just feel like you and Cait are you have a shared value system. So much of what you know she's written about or things that you talk about, it was so nice to be able to hear from her.

Kelton 1:08:41

Yeah. I treasure her. She's, she's such a. A good example of what can come from just starting a friendship with someone online, just leaving constant comments and trying to become someone's friend. You know, we talk about that all the time. That's, that's just like a core element of not only succeeding in your craft, but enjoying it. You have to have people along for the ride. Like if I had not had you and Cait to like send that screenshot of the agent rejection to this past week, like I just wouldn't have told anyone. I wouldn't have told anyone. I mean, I would've told Ben.

Krisserin 1:09:15

I.

Kelton 1:09:16

I, I would've told Ben. I haven't told Ben yet because we've been in like the, like, chaos of life. And so I just like wanna have a private conversation with him where it's not just like people and toddlers and et cetera. But, Cait just, she reminds me too that it's like you gotta be in the trenches for a while. And you and, uh, you and her are good optimist to my ever present, doom and gloom.

Krisserin 1:09:47

Well, I think that Cait's advice, and it was my advice too, which is like, just like step away for a little bit is sound because you do need time to rebuild your reserves of, you know, having the energy to go back to something that you've worked so hard on knowing you have so much hard work left to do. So with that being said, what are your goals for the weight Kelton?

Kelton 1:10:08

Oh God. I mean, inevitably my goals are to work on finalizing those chapter summaries and to like take a step back and, and just look at the proposal as a whole. I don't know if that's my goal really. That's my have to do. So that is on my to-do list, but my goal is, you know what, I'm gonna be honest. My goal is to read a book this week. I just need to go read something else.

Krisserin 1:10:35

Nice. Well, can I recommend the possession of Alva Diaz by Isabel? Yes.

Kelton 1:10:41

I'm, I am, I'm waiting to get it in the mail. But I do have, I'm gonna read Jeff Vander me's Annihilation this week.

Krisserin 1:10:48

Oh my God, I just added that to my TBRI

Kelton 1:10:51

Oh, nice.

Krisserin 1:10:51

of. Yeah. Yeah. Um, his book on writing on structure is really good too, if you're

Kelton 1:10:57

Oh, okay.

Krisserin 1:10:58

It's like illustrated and gorgeous. If you're looking for a fun book to read about writing in the meantime, well, that's exciting.

Kelton 1:11:05

Yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to, to reading it. I, I just breathed through another future guest book. I read Rachel Hochhauser's. Lady Tremaine. So I, now I've got like the reading itch. And so I've got a stack ready to go.

Krisserin 1:11:23

That's great.

Kelton 1:11:24

What's your goal?

Krisserin 1:11:25

yeah, my goal, so I'm obviously I'm gonna chat with, Kima tomorrow. Ho you know, hopefully she's gotten through it. It's also, Ramadan just started this week, so she is fasting and that I think will have an impact on whether or not she's, you know, has the energy get to my book. But, I think outside of any homework that she gives me. I have the itch to start writing again, not, not necessarily the second book in my series, but I have like some fun ideas that are percolating. So

Kelton 1:11:54

Hmm.

Krisserin 1:11:55

I think that. Sitting down and, and doing some of that would be fun. I wrote some like new short story ideas that I have down, and you know, reading good fiction inspires me to write and I think that, like, after getting out of reading Isabelle Kass's book, I'm like, Ugh, I need to, I'm like, I have some ideas. So that's my goal is just to like. something even, not like a complete something, but just to like, write something. And that's really it. Other than that, there's really nothing else on my, to be done list, but

Kelton 1:12:26

think we've earned a quiet week.

Krisserin 1:12:29

You definitely have, I feel like I'm, I gotta start getting back into it. And maybe it's also because it is Ramadan and I'm seeing all of this content in my TikTok feed about people getting up at, you know, five to eat and to pray. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I like, I. I, I really enjoy that ritual myself. Obviously I'm not Muslim, but, the ritual of like getting up and being contemplative and spending some time early in the morning is something that I enjoy doing and I think I might be ready to, to get back into that routine pretty soon. So, yeah, that's it.

Kelton 1:13:02

Alright, well, as always, we would love to hear from you guys, you know where to reach us at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com, pen pals pod on all the platforms. You can follow me @keltonwrites or @keltonkin when I figure out what I'm doing there. You can follow Krisserin on TikTok @krisserin and you can follow Krisserin's writing at krisserin.substack.com. And you can follow my writing at shangrilogs.substack.com. Know that we are in the trenches with you. Uh, what do we say? Miserable writing. Uh, tired writing. What is it again? Oh, right. Happy writing.

Krisserin 1:13:40

writing.