Art Witch, Money B*tch: Courtney Maum on Writing Across Genres and Getting Paid

Kelton's launching the Rewilding Spring Almanac and kicking off the first night of the murmuration, while Krisserin just landed back from Ohio—sick kid and 90-degree weather whiplash. Both hosts hit the reset button on goals this week: Kelton powered through a low mental health stretch by focusing on necessary work, and Krisserin squeezed in 400 words of writing between travel chaos.

This week's guest is Courtney Maum, author of six books including the Vanity Fair-recognized publishing guide Before and After the Book Deal, the Today Show-selected memoir The Year of the Horses, and her upcoming novel Alan Opts Out (May 2026). Courtney brings twenty years of advertising experience, a trend forecaster's instinct for being "ten years early," and a take-no-prisoners approach to the writing life. She talks about deliberately going against her agent's advice to stay in one lane, why she thinks of herself as split between "art witch and money bitch," and how code-switching across genres is a professional joy, not a liability.

Courtney gets candid about Substack strategy—who it works for, who should take a beat, and her prediction that old-school quarterly author newsletters are making a comeback. She breaks down her "anti-workshop workshop" Turning Points, a week-long retreat on a remote New Mexico ranch that combines MFA-level craft work with MBA-level industry strategy, and explains why the traditional fifteen-page workshop model fails writers.

Plus: Kelton's goal for the week is to dive back into her novel's plot (inspired by Courtney's declaration that she knew Alan Opts Out was a Big Five book because "it had a plot"), Krisserin steals the same goal, and both hosts commit to sharing their plot structures with each other as accountability homework. 

Books Courtney is reading right now:
• Hemlock by Melissa Eno
• Monster of a Land: On the Road in Search of Modern America by Lauren Hough  
• Untangled: Guiding Teenage Girls Through the Seven Transitions into Adulthood by Lisa Damour Ph.D. 

Books mentioned by hosts:
• Wired for Story by Lisa Cron
• The Anatomy of Story by John Truby
• Magic Maker by Pam Grossman
• Wonderbook by Jeff Vandemeer

Learn more about Courtney Maum:
Website: https://www.courtneymaum.com/
Substack: Before and After the Book Deal
Turning Points retreat applications close April 30th
Pre-order Alan Opts Out from Oblong Books for a signed copy with lobster stickers

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TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
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Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

Krisserin 0:00

What is your, what's your sweater say?

Kelton 0:02

It's Russian. It says like work wear.

Krisserin 0:05

It says something like that. Rushing off a Russian is slightly different than Bulgarian, even though they use a lot of the most of the same characters. It is phonetic as a language.

Kelton 0:17

interesting. Hi.

Krisserin 0:19

Hi.

Kelton 0:20

Hi, Chris, Erin.

Krisserin 0:21

Hi Kelton.

Kelton 0:25

Um, everyone. Chris Erin's a little tired today.

Krisserin 0:29

When am I not tired? I'm always tired. Always doing a million different things. I just got back from Ohio last night and I had the full on change in the airport because when I landed in LA it was like 90 degrees. And in Ohio it was snowing. How did you, I texted my friend Carol, whose husband went to high school with Kelton, and I was like, how did Paul live here? How did you live in Ohio? It is, I mean, I've never been in a place colder in my life, which I know is surprising. I've been to Bulgaria, but not, and in Europe in the winter, but it was like my face hurt.

Speaker 1:09

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections

Speaker 2 1:18

and hopefully eventual success

Speaker 1:20

from California to

Speaker 2 1:21

Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton 1:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, yeah, it has that, I, I didn't think that was the direction you were gonna go with. Well, how did I live there? Because I now live somewhere more intense weather wise.

Krisserin 1:36

True. I'm Well, that's what I thought about that. I was like, that's why Kelton can live in Colorado.'cause she grew up in this frigid

Kelton 1:43

I know when we first moved to Colorado, everyone was like, oh, get ready for the winters, and Ben and I were had to just repeatedly be like, we are not from la. We are from winters. Much worse than Colorado's beautiful, sunny, picturesque white snow winters. These winters are so easy.

Krisserin 2:05

Yeah, I mean, and beautiful. I, I guess I haven't left. The west coast in a while. I'm glad to be back. But I came back to a sick kid, which is not fun, and she woke up in the middle of the night crying. She was like, not feeling well. She was crying. I'm very sad to have missed your interview with Courtney.

Kelton 2:21

So we have Courtney mom on the episode today, and I've been a big fan of hers for a long time and it was awesome. She's awesome. She, you would've loved her. She's just such a down to earth, like tell it like it is Salty woman. And it made me so excited to eventually apply for her retreat Turning Points. I can't apply this year because of the little tit goblin, but next year, she's top of my list to apply to. So yeah, you, you would love her.

Krisserin 2:53

I'm so sad I missed it. I'll have to send her a note. Yeah, I woke up at 7 45 in the morning and I don't know why I thought we were talking to her like at nine in my brain, I looked at my phone and it was like Courtney Mom interview in 14 minutes. I was like, oh

Kelton 3:08

We did talk to her at 9:00 AM Mountain Time. Lucky me.

Krisserin 3:13

I was like, this is, I'm gonna be a zombie. I would've been brain dead the whole time. I wouldn't have added anything to the conversation. Having been up all night with the baby, but.

Kelton 3:20

I bet you did accomplish all of your goals for the week though.

Krisserin 3:24

What were they? I didn't have any goals for the week. I had no goals for the week,

Kelton 3:28

Yeah, neither did I.

Krisserin 3:30

So yeah, we accomplished them. I did do some writing. I did,

Kelton 3:34

Yeah.

Krisserin 3:35

on the 15th, what is that, Saturday, Sunday, I wrote like 400 words. I wrote a little bit.

Kelton 3:42

Nice.

Krisserin 3:43

I, I optimistically brought my laptop with me on my trip to Ohio thinking I would have energy. write and I did think about it, but I didn't. I didn't do it. I didn't have time. How

Kelton 3:53

I, well, I launched the Spring Almanac this week. So the Rewilding Spring Almac is live. It's a 50 page guide to self-renewal for the spring to kind of help you excavate your personal soil and figure out what it is you really wanna grow in the seasons ahead, within yourself, within your creative practices. I spent a ton of time on it and I really love it. So I hope that people, uh. You know, like prioritize committing to something like this. And it's hard to do self-guided stuff. It definitely is. So if you wanna engage with that, you can just visit kelton wright.com/rewilding, and get the Spring Almanac and, and take care of yourself this season.

Krisserin 4:35

I feel like

Kelton 4:35

But launching it was

Krisserin 4:37

I should

Kelton 4:38

launching, it took a ton of work. And I'm like in the process of like all the launches that go with it, and for me tonight is the first night of the murmuration. So I was working on the presentation for that and, the emails and all that stuff. So tonight that goes live and there's, there's a lot of people registered. So I'm really excited.

Krisserin 4:57

That is exciting. What were, you had no goals this last week.

Kelton 5:01

Well, if I did, I,

Krisserin 5:02

at all?

Kelton 5:03

Nope. Not once. Not once. I, I will tell you, I had a, a low week mentally. Like, you know, like, not like you have to like worry about me. It's, you know, my low weeks are like, I'm frustrated, I'm mad, I'm like pounding my fist on the steering wheel and like screaming into the ether because I'm so dissatisfied with the trajectory of things in general. And I, you know, I was kept checking my Clue app to be like, am I getting my period tomorrow? No, it's still like five days away. So I was just kinda like, okay, we're just gonna breathe through it. We have these seasons, you often feel this way when everything is like brown and gray. And I was like, just, just move through it. Just yell a little louder in the car, put on some music. So I don't think it was a week for me to. To do good work. And so I did necessary work. And the nice thing for me is that like now that the Spring Almanac is like all out there, I have like another two weeks of promoting it that I'm gonna do. And like the murmuration after tonight, like my schedule opens up. So I am excited about that. And I'm excited about like really building in like mandatory writing time. More. More because it's already on the calendar, but more like concentrated. Like not 30 minutes, not an hour, but like this is three hour block for writing.

Krisserin 6:30

Ooh. See, that's what I was supposed to do, is I was supposed to put writing on my calendar. And I didn't do that. I didn't

Kelton 6:36

Yeah. But you were traveling, you know, like maybe that's the goal for the week ahead.

Krisserin 6:42

I was traveling like all day yesterday too. It was exhausting. but yeah, I think that now that this trip is over, I have some time. To kind of and, and think about just sitting in front of my computer and getting some writing done. That would be good.

Kelton 7:01

I also have, I'm reading like one of the, the latest, restore Your Creativity books. Pam Grossman's Magic Maker, which I, I think is like very much in the genre of Liz Gilbert's Big Magic and the Artist's Way. Julia Cameron, like just trying to reignite. What you, what drives you to the practice? I think the subtitle for the book is The Enchanted Path to Creativity. And like, I like what those books,'cause it's usually like, you read one chapter and then you're like, I'm ready to do something. So I just read the introduction last night and so I have it open on the counter to, to read.

Krisserin 7:40

On the counter.

Kelton 7:42

Mm-hmm. Classic, classic toddler reading style.

Krisserin 7:45

Classic toddler reading style. That's nice. How is weaning going, if at all?

Kelton 7:51

We're, we're talking about it a lot. He started to say, milk is running out. And I'm like, yeah, milk is running out. The milk is running out. Yeah. And so I'm like, we gotta give it back to the moon soon. Are you ready? And he is like, no, I. But he, he knows the milk is running out. I ordered him a new sippy cup, and I'm gonna start putting some like milk concoctions in it. So at nighttime I can start introducing that instead of me. And I. I think I'm gonna night wean last, actually I've read this, some women have tried that as like their experimental method where it's like the daytime is easier because you can be like, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this. And taking away night's kind of hard. So, but the plan was like to actually start in really trying in April. So I still have a little bit of time. I.

Krisserin 8:44

Okay, just around the corner. When I was with my coworkers in Ohio. Such an asshole ish thing. I had a dream that I was breastfeeding and that, my baby was a year and a half, and then the next day I was like, yeah, I had this really weird dream. said something about breastfeeding up until a year and a half, and she, one of my coworkers was like, yeah, that was me. And I was like, why? I was so judgmental about it. I was like, why? She's like, well, my other kid breastfed till three. And I was like, why? Why?

Kelton 9:15

You're so brutal.

Krisserin 9:17

I, well, I think that it was just so, breastfeeding was so much work for me

Kelton 9:23

Yeah.

Krisserin 9:24

and, you know, going into the office and having to pump and freeze

Kelton 9:28

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 9:28

it was just really stressful and I just wanted my body back. So I think that, like, I don't mean, it's not judgmental, it's like me projecting my

Kelton 9:36

Mm-hmm. Totally. And like, you know, that's the thing is,

Krisserin 9:39

be like, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound

Kelton 9:42

breastfeeding's been so easy for me, which is, you know, like I'm really grateful for, and that, but that means that like, you know, it's kind of like a giving a kid a pacifier, you know, it's like, it's hard to take it away from them when you've created this system of ease. I just wrote about this on Shangri Logs, where it was like. Breastfeeding fixes literally every one of his problems. And so just eradicating one of those solutions because I'm tired of it, is like, sort of funny. I, I'm sure I'm gonna be really tired of what happens after. But, you know, he's entering, he's like really entering toddlerdom where he's like having big feelings. And so I'm like, let's nip this in the tit,

Krisserin 10:22

Yeah,

Kelton 10:22

nip this in the nip. Okay. It's funny, in the interview you're about to hear, Courtney talks about her tween, and like what a different stage she is in with that, like needing mom. It sounds like her tween like really needs target more than anything else. So she's working through that.

Krisserin 10:42

How old is her? Tween.

Kelton 10:43

She didn't say,

Krisserin 10:44

Oh,

Kelton 10:45

And I didn't ask.

Krisserin 10:47

I have one. I have a tween. My tween is gonna turn 12 on March 28th, so I still have not printed her birthday invitations. I get to do that today,

Kelton 10:59

Yeah, you need to do that today.

Krisserin 11:01

to do that today.

Kelton 11:02

You didn't do that today.

Krisserin 11:04

mom.

Kelton 11:05

You're not a bad mom. Why doesn't boy do it?

Krisserin 11:08

Listen. So I actually, he went to go, I, I thought about asking him before I was like, maybe I can ask Boon to do this before I leave for Ohio and he can do it while I'm gone. I didn't do that. But then this morning he had to go to the doctor, which is right by Staples, and I was like, Hey, you're right by Staples, could you just go and print these invitations? So he went and he got there. he didn't print them because it was too complicated. And he came home. I was just like, I'll do it. I'll just do it. I'll do it.

Kelton 11:45

Uh, the, oh, that's like such a terrible mom slogan. I'll just do it.

Krisserin 11:50

I know it's horrible, but it was gonna, I was like, it needs to be on card stock. It needs to be full color. Like, and he, I, I think he was gonna try and do it himself on the machine because there was no one physically there to help him. And so I was like. I'll just do it. I'll just do it. Just come on. I know. It is a horrible, it is horrible. He was there. I should've just let him do it.

Kelton 12:13

Speaking of just doing things, this talk with Courtney Mom really made me want to. To just go write for the rest of the day. She's such a motivator in that like, go do your work kind of way. Courtney is the author of five books, including the Groundbreaking Publishing Guide that Vanity Fair recently named one of the 10 Best Books for Writers before and after the book Deal. She's also the author of the memoir, the Year of the Horses, chosen by The Today Show as the best read for mental health awareness. Also it's about horses. She's a writing coach, a director of the writing workshop, turning Points. She's an educator. Courtney's mission is to help people hold onto the joy of art making in a culture obsessed with turning artists into brands, uh, widely published in such outlets as the New York Times, wall Street Journal, the Guardian interview. She sits on the Advisory Council, the Author's Guild, where she helps protect working writers. Writes and on Substack, Courtney runs a bestselling newsletter about publishing that you can sign up for@courtneymom.com. That's MAUM, where you'll also find all of her online classes and her latest novel, Alan opts out is coming out this May, so you can pre-order it and she talks a little about a special pre-order in the interview. So let's get into it. Let's welcome Courtney Mom. Hello,

Courtney Maum 13:32

Hello? Hi,

Kelton 13:34

how are you Courtney?

Courtney Maum 13:35

I'm good. I'm happy to be here. I'm double, triple checking my phone's on airplane

Kelton 13:40

Chris can't make it this morning'cause one of her kids was sick all night.

Courtney Maum 13:43

night.

Kelton 13:44

Uh, so she is

Courtney Maum 13:45

It's going

Kelton 13:46

to.

Courtney Maum 13:46

My neighbor's family has the flu, so I'm like sealing myself off.

Kelton 13:52

You are like, no, thank you.

Courtney Maum 13:54

I mean, my kid got the flu shot and she never gets the flu. And this year she was, she was out an entire week. She had, I almost took her to the er. She had 105. It's like no bueno.

Kelton 14:08

Brutal. I have had the flu three times this year,

Courtney Maum 14:11

Really?

Kelton 14:11

I'm just Yeah. I, I, I'm like, I, I'm no longer checking that. It's like COVID. I'm like, just keep me locked in the basement. I don't need to worry about long COVID, like just,

Courtney Maum 14:23

tests are starting to gather some dust.

Kelton 14:26

yeah. You're like, it's, we're too far gone.

Courtney Maum 14:28

Yeah,

Kelton 14:29

Anyway. It's amazing to have you. I've been a great fan of your work for several years now. I found you on Substack. Um. The, uh, the platform de jour. Um, and

Courtney Maum 14:42

about it.

Kelton 14:43

yeah, absolutely. And something I really love about your career is that it's, it's so multifaceted and it feels really intentional and integrated in a way that doesn't feel forced or like you built it off the back of like a branding exercise, which is what a lot of things like kind of look like right now. You have substack, you write novels, you have a memoir, you have a bestselling nonfiction book. You do retreats. You're a teacher. Like was this deliberate being so multidimensional?

Courtney Maum 15:14

No, not at all. Um, and it's funny you talk about branding'cause I come from a branding background. I worked in advertising for 20 years. So like I have the knowledge about how to build a brand and I went completely against it and like diversified and was in a thousand different lanes. And in fact the multidimensional thing, I was um, sort of counseled not to go that route from, from, um. know, my agent and my editor, well, my editor, not so much, but through my agent, right? Oh, early on, like, it was just made clear to me when I was pitching or telling my agent what my third book was gonna be, which was like a total departure from what I'd done before already historical fiction with illustrations like the kiss of death, you know? And it was just made clear to me, if you stay in this lane of kind of, I don't know, literary accessible, literary fiction or what I, I call it like commercial literary fiction, you know, you'll have ups and downs, but like, it could be very lucrative for you. There could be film, you know, just stay in your lane and kind of try to put out the same, the word product was not used, but that's how I understood it. And, you know, I thought about my branding background and I was like, yeah, that's the thing to do, so I won't do it. So it wasn't, I mean. It was intentionally kind of rebellious. Like I just didn't wanna be a product. And also I don't, I, I'm a trained copywriter. I mean, I, I worked in a, an environment where two hours in the morning I'd be writing very, kind of antiseptic for a pharmaceutical company. And then in the afternoon I'd be working for like women's sanitary pads, totally different tonality. And then I'd be doing hertz rent a car. And I love, so code switching and tonality switching is a joy for me. It's how I'm professionally trained. So I get very bored if I'm not challenging myself and switching genres. I, I really get, I feel ashamed of myself. I always wanna try something new. But, my agent had to just give in.'cause now I have six books. She had to just give up and she decided to stick with me. But, yeah, it wasn't some, Hmm. It wasn't recommended. It wasn't, I didn't design it that way, but I think finally now I've been doing this long that it's all it, it's it, I played the long game. I think, you know, it's all starting to come together and make sense now, but, it didn't for a while.

Kelton 17:54

Yeah, I mean it's,

Courtney Maum 17:55

but not to the

Kelton 17:56

yeah.

Courtney Maum 17:57

who support me or read me. Maybe

Kelton 17:59

It feels like you had foresight. I mean, everybody does recommend now having multiple income streams and to diversify how you're making that money. And so like now you're like, well, look what I did.

Courtney Maum 18:11

so, I also used to work in trend forecasting and. I have found over the years in both my, my personal kind of predictions, my own life and my books, that I'm usually 10 years early, which sounds like a brag, but isn't.'cause for instance, my, novel, my 2017 novel Touch, which was about humans literally rising up against technology to take their humanity back was a bit early for

Kelton 18:38

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Maum 18:39

and would be ex excellent to be published now. Um, yeah, I just tend to be a little, a little early. I wrote my memoir about horses and horse girl power like a little early, you know, so fine. I,

Kelton 18:57

Yeah, you're like peppering them in in TikTok conversations.

Courtney Maum 19:01

a, I was on TikTok like so long ago, and then I got off when it got hot. Of course. Um, yeah, I'm a, I'm a Virgo. I'm super early to everything and not always in a way. Like, I'm too early.

Kelton 19:15

We do cover that sometimes on this podcast. What are your big three? Are you a Virgo son?

Courtney Maum 19:20

Oh, I don't, I don't know what I am. Virgo. Virgo. I don't know what I am. I'm real Virgo.

Kelton 19:27

I appreciate that. I'm a Virgo moon, so I relate to you on that. But it.

Courtney Maum 19:32

kind, whatever. Whatever that is

Kelton 19:36

I mean, I think one thing that's really cool about the different arenas that you're playing in with, especially with retreats and with Substack, is that you're building relationships directly with your consumers. Where normally that's sort of managed through book tours essentially. Do you feel like that direct relationship impacts their loyalty to your next project?

Courtney Maum 19:54

A hundred percent. Yeah. I really feel like, I've developed some, I don't know, like I have my own little MFA program that I'm the, the head of, and. I don't look at my statistics at all, so I can't, just refuse to track like exactly who are my most loyal people. But I see it, you know, and I have a good amount of followers on substack, and I keep thinking that it'll drop and the whole thing will just fall apart. And it hasn't yet. It's not rising Astro. I'm probably like, I've kind of probably plateaued a little bit, which is, which is fine, frankly. But, but it, it hasn't dropped and I feel like, huh? Like, no, I think I really have found my people and I enjoy them. And there's certain people who comment a lot, and if they don't comment, I think like, are they okay? Should I drive down to Tennessee and check on, you know, car, whoever?

Kelton 20:51

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 20:51

I, I think of them as friends. I've started to get like some holiday cards and. Birthday cards or even congratulations on your new book cards for some of my subscribers, my paid subscribers. You know, I, I think, I think, you know, we can get into this or not, but I have paywall comments from the very beginning, which gives me a real sense of, um, hopefully merited sense of security and safety that the people who are commenting and really engaging with, with my work have, have paid to be able to do so. And I think that, that, I think that that works out really well and has kept the comment section look, I a nice place to be. So yeah, I really, really privilege the direct relationship I have, with substack followers who I, I do think, again, it's sort of coming together because they've come to my substack kind of like, okay. This crazy lady writes in all different genres and like, seems to be doing okay and talks really honestly about things. So like, screw it. Normally I don't read nonfiction, but why not? Let's read her memoir or like, Hey, whatever. I don't write nonfiction but let me go to her fiction class. And, because we like each other, that's what it feels like to me. I'm not looking at my stats so I don't know if this is true, but it feels to me like we like each other and I care about my subscribers hopefully as much as they, they care about me. So that

Kelton 22:15

Yeah. And Substack does make it kind of hard when you log into the platform. They're like, look at your statistics.

Courtney Maum 22:21

think they must have gotten a lot of complaints'cause I don't, they now have an option where you can hide that

Kelton 22:27

Yeah. I have switched over to just, I launch into like my, just the new post.

Courtney Maum 22:32

yeah.

Kelton 22:32

what I have bookmarked for me. Um, but I think one of the things I love about your substack, what drew me to it is your take no prisoner's tone. You, you just, you really, you, you have such an authentic approach to your writing across. It seems like all genres. Something I really loved and before and after the book deal too, where you were just like, listen, I'm gonna tell it to you straight, uh, because everybody else is telling it to you sideways so that you're excited to buy this book.

Courtney Maum 22:58

book. I, I just, um, I, I think my biggest pet peeve, it really goes beyond a pet peeve. It kind of completely unravels me, is, um, wasted time inefficiency, know, and trying to get anything published these days. I mean, anything from a personal essay to an op-ed, to a recipe all the way up to a book is so hard and it takes so long. And if you get paid at all, you're probably not gonna be well paid. And you will have made so many sacrifices that you're already in the negative anyway. So, you know. Any kind of advice that, that just doesn't get straight to the point, I think is, um, especially if it's coming from someone who's a veteran who has published and has been through the ringer. I just think it's cruel. think it's an act of sisterhood or personhood. I think it's cruel. Like the, and the, the, the advice we hear, you know, it's starting to, um, fall out of favor, but, you know, write every day like, okay, in this economy,

Kelton 24:02

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 24:03

Um, I just, I don't, there's, there's a lot of incredible teachers out there that exist who, who just give such beautiful, authentic advice around craft and the beauty of it all. And, you know, I do a little bit of that, 30% maybe, but the 70% is just kind of like. Hey, get your shit together and stop making excuses. It's gonna be hard, but it'll be harder if you don't do it. You know? So

Kelton 24:29

Hmm.

Courtney Maum 24:30

just, just, I'm a pragmatic person. I have kind of split between an art witch. There's a, a very, very committed to the pursuit of, of writing, but I also wanna get my stuff published and wanna be decently paid, you know? So I'm sort of split between, I don't know, hustle, a corporate hustler and a art witch.

Kelton 24:52

Yeah. Art Witch and Money Bitch. Um, what,

Courtney Maum 24:55

I might write that down. That's very good.

Kelton 24:58

what, um, what are your two, two sides? I also was a copywriter for a long time. I followed your similar path in advertising. Um, what do you think about Substack in the landscape? Like is it a distraction for a lot of writers to pursue? Sometimes I wonder, like if I'm just like throwing all my writing out with the bath water by publishing it for free all the time.

Courtney Maum 25:20

right.

Kelton 25:21

but it has built me a platform and it, and it is the only way I've ever gotten agents interested in my work. Um, so what's your feeling on.

Courtney Maum 25:28

Well, I have a lot of feelings and the first feeling I'll express is in terms of what you just said, which is like, okay, am I just throwing all my stuff out there for free? Am I shooting myself in the foot? Well, my answer would be like, Ooh, where else are you gonna publish it right now? You know, there, there so many outlets are unfortunately shuttering with, um, Trump's ridiculous budget cuts. And, and, and then, you know, the outlets that still exist. Like for instance, I wanna, sorry, let me finish my thought. The outlets that still exist can take such a long time to get a response from. If you have something timely, it's like, well, Jesus, you know, I have something right now, I wanna pitch to the believer, but I'm like, I don't know if I wanna wait like a year to hear

Kelton 26:19

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 26:19

you know, do I have. Who knows where we'll be in 2027. Do I really wanna sit on this piece? Or, you know, there is that kind of Pavlovian reflex like, or can I, should I just publish it, you know, upload it to my note audience on Substack and maybe it'll get some shares and then you get that kind of a adrenaline hit,

Kelton 26:38

I'll get my little treat.

Courtney Maum 26:40

you get your little treat. Um, I think, I think people should be, um, you know, people who are publishing on Substack and getting some level of engagement, um, should keep doing so. But maybe say if 30% of what they're doing and try to pitch it elsewhere and just make sure they are publishing elsewhere from time to time. And then people who aren't getting engagement, I was, um, looking at, it's a potential client the other day who, who, it's just, there's not a single, like there's not a single re it's just not landing. It's literally be. Being published in a void. Um, I I think if, if, if you're not, it's not so much about a subscribers, but if you're just not getting any engagement with your posts on Substack, um, you should probably take a beat and, and, and reconsider, uh, what you're doing do should you be on this particular platform that is so overcrowded right now. It's like a commuter you know, at, at nine in the morning. Um, and did you go there for the right reasons?'cause I hear, you know, this is sort of ridiculous how all the gatekeepers are like, even query if you don't have a substack with such an amount of followers. But then people start a substack and they're just writing in a diary. You know, Substack is a, a very specific platform that I think works best for pretty polished. Professionals. Now, professionals means like who kind of understands the branding aspect of it. Doesn't matter if how you identify. You can be a writer, you can be a chef, you can be a runner. But it, it does, it does seem to work best for the people who have experience using assets, right? In the branding world. Visual assets, icons, logos, choosing the right photos, SEO, all of these things. Um, Substack is not tiny letter. It's not MailChimp, it's not the email, the newsletter attached to your Squarespace website. It best when you understand the game. You've come from some sort of polished marketing background. So, so if you don't have that, I think, and again, you, if you're out there publishing things and you're getting one like, and it's from your mom, you know, whatever, take a beat. You can stay on Substack, but maybe. Look around, do a brand audit, you know, figure, figure out how it works. I have a class on this, actually online, mom.com new. It's called Platform Your Way. Anyway, um, but then I keep telling people, again, this is probably my like 10 years out thing, but I think we're gonna see a big comeback of the old school author newsletter. Um, an author, like, you don't have to be some crazy published person, but, um, something that comes out quarterly that you have to wait for and you're excited to get.'cause right now I'm, I'm, you're probably in the same place as me. I subscribe to tons of Substack and in the morning I'm mostly deleting everything that's come in. I just don't have time and I don't know where else to put it. Like, I wish Gmail would sync with Substack so I could put things. I don't have the app on my phone, so I

Kelton 29:57

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Maum 29:57

through, um, so I'm not reading, I'm not engaging with a lot of the stuff. That comes in through Substack.'cause it's coming too frequently. It's kind of like the New Yorker subscription I have. That is just what, like virtue signaling at this point. Right. This keeps piling up. I haven't read

Kelton 30:13

Uh huh Uhhuh.

Courtney Maum 30:14

where's the time? So whereas the, the old school author newsletter that comes once a season, I think it's like terrifically chic, you know? And,

Kelton 30:24

Yes.

Courtney Maum 30:24

Chloe Benjamin has an excellent one and like, you know, she's up to some stuff. So when the winter one comes, I am not a knitter at all, but I'm like, what is she knitted? I can't wait to find out, you know, what tea is she excited about? And then of course, you know, she has some book events and stuff, but I just always think like, this is so badass, I'm not gonna do it. I have, I've just, I actually love doing my Substack every week. But like, I think it is kind of retirement goal, like, God, that's so hot. Like

Kelton 30:54

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 30:55

newsletter that you have all these subscribers for like, oh,

Kelton 30:59

I know it's like a fantasy.

Courtney Maum 31:00

I,

Kelton 31:01

wait

Courtney Maum 31:01

so

Kelton 31:03

it. Getting a quarterly email is like getting a letter in the mail. I'm like, oh,

Courtney Maum 31:07

Oh my

Kelton 31:07

let's sit down and have a coffee.

Courtney Maum 31:09

No, it, it's, I take, I read it start to finish when Chloe's Chloe's newsletter comes in. I just think like, it's so, she and I love thinking instead of me, where every single week I'm like, oh my God. Wednesday, every Wednesday I publish a newsletter, which again, I love to do, I, and I want to keep doing. But then when I think of, she's like, oh, it's October. I have to remember December. I'll write a newsletter. I think, my God, that's amazing.

Kelton 31:36

What a life.

Courtney Maum 31:36

you know, she's like writing her new book. It's just so goals,

Kelton 31:41

I wanna go back to the class that you mentioned because you are kind of a prolific educator. Um, and your retreat is on my list turning points, um, to apply to next year. Um, I have a toddler right now and he's still breastfeeding, so I'm like, I gotta wait. I can't abandon him yet, but, um,

Courtney Maum 32:00

soon.

Kelton 32:01

not yet.

Courtney Maum 32:02

by the following year, you'll be real ready. So,

Kelton 32:04

Yeah. Oh my god. I can already feel it emotionally,

Courtney Maum 32:07

yeah. But

Kelton 32:08

talk to me about that, like, um, your writing life in general and creating physical spaces to kind of foster the education behind it.

Courtney Maum 32:17

You know, I was against starting a writing workshop for a long time because I had attended them as, um, I don't have an MFA. So once I realized like, oh wow, I wanna start publishing, I don't know, a single writer. don't have the education, whatever, formal education and creative writing, like, uh, what the hell am I gonna do? And I was like 32 years old and I thought, I'm not gonna go to an MFA program now, you know? so I started investing in going to summer writing workshops. Like one summer I did Tin House, Breadloaf and Wesleyan, like all in the same summer. And while I loved'em and were great socially, and I made excellent friends. I hated the way that writing workshop, traditional writing workshops structured. I hated it. Like they're hard to get into. I applied to work with a certain teacher and then it was my turn to workshop and they're selecting 15 pages, which of course I picked out the good pages that I didn't want. I didn't actually want comments on, I wanted compliments on. And then the teacher doesn't even speak, right? They let the blind lead the blind, and I was like, what in the hell is this? It's not, I don't, I didn't come to this workshop to learn how to give people feedback. I, I want to be told how to make the, you know, so. I started off, I, I founded and ran and for about seven or eight years, a nonprofit like learning collaborative where we had artists and filmmakers and actors and clowns, like all together in the woods for four days, which was amazing. But I just don't make enough money to be running a nonprofit. And so I sort of reluctantly, like I had it in my head like, I should teach, I want my, I should do my own writing workshop. But at the time, I wasn't bold enough think like, you don't have to do it the way that other people do it. And what, what changed for me is that someone contacted me about this massive, stunning ranch in the middle of nowhere New Mexico. And I weirdly already had to go to New Mexico for a work related thing. And so I went to check it out and I was like, ah, I see this is how we do it. This is how we do it. This place is in the middle of nowhere. It's like. have to sign up for like a helicopter first aid thing because if something happens, like you are two hours away from anything. And I thought I'll just reverse the whole workshop thing. You know, I don't have to get into the whole thing, but I, I just thought, oh, it'll be like the anti workshop workshop and it's gonna be so emotionally intense because it's in such an isolated place. I mean, absolutely stunning. Like, people cry when they leave, they don't wanna go back to the real world. It feels like you're on another planet. But, I thought, well, I could do this. If I do it my way, will anyone come? And that's how I started, turning Points, which back then, when I searched for available names, I was not looking in like the Nazi, word bank. And so I didn't realize that it was also. The name of Charlie Kirk's thing, but whatever. And I'm not changing, I just refuse to keep kowtowing to the fricking right wing. They can change their name. Thank you very much. Because it really is a turning point. Like I wanted to create something really combines the way I think about this, which is yes, disappear into your work, disappear into the art disassociate, into the whole thing, but from time to time, come back to Earth and, and so you can set yourself up for success and learn about the industry and make contact. So it's really, I guess I call it like a program that combines an MBA with an MFA and, yeah, I'm really proud of it and, because I myself had gone to the workshops that were so. Socially and kind of party orientated. You know, tin House was excellent, but we'd be running out for martinis. Wesleyan was amazing, but there were all these you could escape with, like the person you liked best from the workshop. I also really wanted to create something, uh, that, uh, fights against this on demand world in which we curate everything we want to fit ourselves and, and forced everyone to work together as a true group for a week. And like, no, you can't run away with your new bestie to, get a latte. You can go on a, a hike, you can take a cold plunge, you can go look at the horses, you know.

Kelton 36:44

Yeah, you're in consequence. New Mexico, you wanna get a Starbucks? It's like six hours away.

Courtney Maum 36:49

no, this one's in, it, there's no name. It doesn't even have a town. The ranch is so big, the truth of consequences that was a different thing that I ran. But

Kelton 36:58

Aha.

Courtney Maum 36:58

could, you, you, I don't know, man, there's you. There's no lattes, but we have the best chef. Like it's very, I'm making it sound like kind

Kelton 37:10

Tell me who it's right for. Like you applications open soon, right? And what do you look for? They're open.

Courtney Maum 37:16

There's only a month left. They close on April 30th. Points is right for people who are just like, God dammit, I need to level up. I, I need to fricking move forward. And that could mean many different things. It's just that sensation of like, enough already. So the enough already thing could be I have no accountability. I just keep prioritizing freelance work or my kids or whatever. Or,

Kelton 37:48

me.

Courtney Maum 37:48

or, yeah. Or it could, or it could be, my God, I'm just toiling in, in, in, in. A cave. I don't have any friends. I really need to snap to it and learn more to make friends, put myself out there, identify as a writer, or it's someone like, what the hell? I've had this memoir on submission twice. It's not working. What do I have to do? I really want this memoir to happen, or I am gonna make this novel work if it kills me. I finally am ready to I don't have a plot. So the good thing about me as a teacher, because I've worked in all these different genres and have worked with the Big five and the indies and the micro presses, and I've self-published, is there's no my way or the highway, every, every class is like adaptive. It's just multi genre. Um, and we, I, I organized the workshop to meet people truly at whatever level that we're at. We have had, our first year we had. Um, a phenomenal bestseller who had sold 500,000 copies of her book up against someone whose, whose book was only in her head. And, and just the way that I

Kelton 39:05

Maybe.

Courtney Maum 39:07

Because of my anti workshop workshop structure, it, everyone got what they needed out of it. And the other thing that's cool is we run this effectively. It's an alum alumni program where we're all stay in touch. We have quarterly, um, zooms, but we also have physical meetups and reunions and um, we connect cohort 2023 with 2025. It's just really, I'm very proud of it. So it's not, it's not cheap. I mean, nothing's cheap these days, but it's, you get a lot out of it. And it's not just that week, it's, there's co private coaching with me before and then the alumni thing after. And also we have like the world's best chef, Daniel Garcia from Los Poblanos, which is. It's super famous in New Mexico and everything's from scratch. Oh my God. The food is so good. And there's horses and cattle and the, it's run by cowgirls, not cowboys.

Kelton 40:07

you're really describing like a fantasy to me. I mean, what.

Courtney Maum 40:11

It's a fantasy. Yeah.

Kelton 40:12

you say like, um, if someone's considering a writing retreat of any kind, like what should they ask themselves before signing up or applying? How do they know that that's it's like the right thing for them to do for where they are?

Courtney Maum 40:24

Yeah. I mean, especially'cause so many of these things cost so

Kelton 40:27

I,

Courtney Maum 40:28

Um, I think you wanna ask yourself like, why am I going? And if, if the impetus is social, I wanna put myself out there, I wanna meet people, I wanna hobnob with these teachers, I just, it's time

Kelton 40:42

I.

Courtney Maum 40:43

to be like in the literary scene. Then most kind of summer writing workshops are, are great for that. If. You desperately need help with your manuscripts. I would orient myself more toward, workshops that, there's not a lot of them, frankly, this is why I created my own. But workshops where you are really going to be getting intense, workable feedback. So like, away from, I mean it hurts me to say this Bread Loaf is such an amazing program, but the bread loafs and the tin houses, unless they've changed something about their structure, you get like 20 minutes, you know, 30, 20, 30 minutes. And it's generally student led, the feedback on 15 pages. I'm dead set against this 15 page workshop thing. The way I run mine is based off of a query letter or I have people draw out their plots. We're, we're trying to look at the entirety of the manuscript without reading the entire manuscript. We never treat like 15 pages. We treat the work as a whole. So trying to look for programs where the individual workshops are are longer, or there's a series of group exercises where you're just getting mechanical work instead of some like flimsy overview. Or, you know, there's a lot of teachers like myself these days. Rachel Kong is one, I think her program is called Green Hours. Amy Shern has a great one in, I think it's Red Clover in Wisconsin. Those programs that are just run by one or two workshop leaders or authors, I think generally you are gonna get, kind of a higher value of mechanical work on your, on your manuscript when you go to the ones led by an author. I think. Now that being said. I've OI only run one. I haven't attended one. The workshops I attended back in the day were the larger summer programs, but, um, yeah,

Kelton 42:50

It's fun to hear you talk about, like, zooming out in the retreat because it's also sort of what your book, before and after the book deal does. Um, I,

Courtney Maum 42:59

I,

Kelton 42:59

I treated myself to just reading where I was in my career in that book. And now before this I read the whole thing. Um, and I I really love that book. And obviously your substack of the, the same title'cause it, it like normalizes the whole career process of writing. I think there's a lot of like, well you get the book deal and ta-da life's amazing. And it's like, no, that's like you just got hired at an entry level job and you have your whole career ahead of you.

Courtney Maum 43:28

documents.

Kelton 43:29

Yeah, exactly. And so I did wanna talk to you about that.

Courtney Maum 43:34

with, what's the show with? Adam Scott, that everyone loves that depressed me

Kelton 43:38

a severance.

Courtney Maum 43:41

like severance. You just get a book deal and like, yay. And then you're just thrown into a warehouse of, with only your own voice. Like what do I do now?

Kelton 43:49

So you've seen not only your own afters of like all these different P books you've published, but the everybody else who's like coming through your program, the alumni network you've built, what are the, what are the patterns like that you see? The predictable ways that people kind of unravel or recalibrate?

Courtney Maum 44:05

Oh god. okay, so most people start with hubris and egocentrism they write a book that's just for themselves and not for the reader. And then they either learn to listen and accept feedback and get it into a shareable place and you know, blah, blah, blah. Age it, move on. I think lot of people, I. It's very hard to move from the excitement around about and pride around a dream realized then becoming this like carpet bag salesman for your own And one of the hardest realizations people go through is that all of your friends and family are gonna buy your book. You like can't actually count on who you think you can count on. That can be very Whether it's like you were sure you're gonna get a blurb from somebody or you start to suspect that a dear, dear friend hasn't bought your book. There's these kind of micro hurts, that could be hard to bounce back for from. I see a lot of people who overestimate grossly overestimate their ability to write a book at all. So you see that in me, mostly nonfiction, but memoir where someone sells something on a proposal and they agree to just a year. That they've never written a book before. And so I see people fall apart there a lot. They overestimate their ability to, you know, write and revise and deliver a book on too short of a, of a timeline. And then, you know, people just spin out, like myself included, you can start. I'm on, I'm two months out from having, Alan Ops out cover recognition. Here's the book, two months out now from the book coming out. And, I've kind of been in a dreamlands and where I just was protecting myself against my regular bad instincts. But they've come back this week, so I'm like, I have to stay off Instagram.'cause I'm starting to see things like, oh. I got a starred publisher weekly review and I'm like, oh God, mine hasn't come in yet. Where's my, you know, or like, this person is keynoting at this thing, or they have an event at the strand. And the strand told me that they didn't have scheduling, you know, and you're like, oh my God, Courtney, you're almost 50 years old. So I stop. This is so silly. And so, you know, jealousy, competition, heart sickness. Then a lot of people don't understand how bonkers their desires are. So like don't really understand how the the mechanics behind getting like a celebrity book club pick

Kelton 46:50

Well, not only did the writers not understand, but their, their, their social system doesn't, there's so many people in my life who are like, I can't wait for you to be a bestseller. And I'm like, please, please stop. Like, just let it go.

Courtney Maum 47:03

I, I, I think, like, so my friends and I go, when I'm introduced to things, people will be like this bestselling author. And I, I don't, I'm not, I don't correct them anymore.'cause I'm not, who wants to hear like, well it's only true for this

Kelton 47:17

Technically.

Courtney Maum 47:18

the, the book scan, you know, and I'm just like, they see me that way. That's freaking awesome.

Kelton 47:23

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 47:23

in my bio. But you know, I think, I think, I guess my number one bird's eye view thing would be that people really get in trouble when they focus everything. They have good feelings, bad feelings, hopes, financial hopes. On one book,

Kelton 47:41

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 47:42

one book, what debut, their sophomore, whatever the hell you, you really, the only way to win is to keep your head down and keep. Just keep going. Um, the, and not like, oh, my book failed it under so blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Well, it's not, you know, a three minute figure skating routine. It, it, it, it's on shelves. It does, it's not gonna go outta print for a while. So you don't have to make your whole life's mission, you know, this book. Write another one and see if you can't lift that book up along with it. You know, the way, the way I'm trying to promote Alan Ops out is by like, talking about touch, which feels like a companion book or, before and after the book deal, or my memoir like, did you like these other yahoos? Like, you'll love this one. You know,

Kelton 48:33

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 48:34

to, trying to always remind people like. I have a backlist.

Kelton 48:38

Yeah, totally.

Courtney Maum 48:39

I'm very fortunate right now that, knock on wood, of the titles are out of print. So it's just, it really is a long game and oh my gosh, I really have some friends who have, just mentally are in trouble because they're still mourning the performance or non-performance of this one book that came out 10, 12 years ago, 15 years ago, and they just never got over it. And that bitterness, like try to avoid, I mean, you can't avoid it, but just sit with it, have a bitter, nasty day. I like to tell people, have one person you can really, really trust. I call it your bitch bucket, just safely complain, to encode your text messages. I don't

Kelton 49:24

Uh,

Courtney Maum 49:25

Do not write a substack post about it. Yeah,

Kelton 49:29

yeah.

Courtney Maum 49:30

like, behave, please behave. Um, and, and then just move on. Misbehave not publicly and then move on. Just move on, keep

Kelton 49:39

Yeah, and I feel like a lot of people tie those hopes to some kind of financial freedom, where they then

Courtney Maum 49:45

didn't even think about that. That's another big problem. Like, oh, I've got this manuscript, it'll get me a million dollar book deal. Don't count on that. Like the money, the money, the money is yours when it is in your account. Which by the way, even if you do get a million dollar book deal, you're not getting a million, you know,

Kelton 50:04

totally.

Courtney Maum 50:05

getting it all at once. And most of it's going to the IRA huge portion. So like the money thing, you know, we've mentioned multiple income streams. If you are working on a manuscripts and your primary motivator is money. Stop right now, book a therapist appointment because you are not managing your expectations correctly and you're probably, you might not be writing or revising for the right reason. I mean, once you start doing this enough and publishing enough, you know, there is, like, I talk with my agent now very candidly about whether I'm doing a Big five book or an indie book before even read pages. but that's'cause I now have the sales, you know, I have published with Indies and I have done the Big Five. So like I know I can do it. That doesn't mean I know I can sell it. like when I was working on Allen Ops out for years, I was very forthright about this is a big five book, you

Kelton 51:11

Let's, yeah, let's talk about Alan Ops out, because I'm like, I am stoked to read it.

Courtney Maum 51:16

it.

Kelton 51:16

I love the premise of like a character who's stepping away from the system. So tell me about the, yeah. The origin story of Alan.

Courtney Maum 51:25

Yeah. So, much started during CID where I think it was the homeschooling thing that broke me as a human being. I am the breadwinner in my family. I am not, you know, the token like mother figure. I'm more of fucking an old school, 1950s father. And so, being told that I had to homeschool my child, I just remember I went out in the yard and actually just laid down in my yard was like, I don't want this. I didn't sign up for this. This isn't what I signed up for. I, I had been on the fence about having kids at all, so I was just like, I wanna opt out. Like, I don't, this isn't work. And so that was the sense feeling that. I, of course carried throughout those pandemic years, but everybody else did too. But it was my neighbor and dear friends who during the pandemic, like took that a little further and he just did opt out of like, he, he stopped using his phone, which was challenging'cause our daughters are best friends and at the time they didn't have phones. He stopped wearing shoes, he changed the way he dressed. He started wearing these ponchos and carried everything in baskets. And then he, we'd, husband and him, they'd been building a tree house for our daughters and he started like sleeping in it. And I opted out of his marriage like, and so he was, a real inspiration for the male figure in Alan Ops out who opts out of, of capitalism. And my friend knows that, so I'm free to, he's, he's excited that he, he inspired the book. So it, it was watching that happen in a way where things really changed in his family. He up in a divorce, and was amicable, but, you know, it was a divorce and, and I, I kind of snapped back, you know, I wasn't, I kept my shoes on. So yeah, it was just, it was watching that. And then I suppose that this book where it's a dual narrative where the husband opts out of capitalism and meanwhile the wife is doing everything she can to be kind of become a brand she's totally opting in, that comes from. Personal struggle in my life where I'm sort of a buy nothing kind of gal and try to really not do anything on Amazon. And then I've got this tween obsessed with buying and she wants to live inside Target. So those struggles domestically certainly inform the narrative also.

Kelton 54:03

Yeah. I mean, that is one thing I love about living, like a hundred miles from a target.

Courtney Maum 54:08

Oh yeah. I live pretty far. And, and especially, you know, at the beginning when Target there were going against DEI initiatives and all, you know, I had, I was just like, I'm not doing Target. We're

Kelton 54:23

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Maum 54:24

letting you go to Target. Then. So she found a friend's grandma took her and it's a, it is 30 minutes away

Kelton 54:32

Oh man.

Courtney Maum 54:33

she'll just find a. So still holding the line against Target, but she finds all these other people to bring her.

Kelton 54:41

I respect the hustle. I, the commitment, I can't argue with that. It'll pay off in some other way.

Courtney Maum 54:46

900 pairs of sweatpants from Target.

Kelton 54:50

Speaking of buying things from Target, like how did you know that Allen Ops out was a Big Five book?

Courtney Maum 54:57

'Cause I had a plot. Yeah, it has a plot. I mean,

Kelton 55:02

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 55:03

It has that kind of momentum, that Paige Turner plot thing. And it's also, it's just in a register that I call my Sally Kim register'cause she's thankfully, been my editor for all of my big five books. We are at three different publishers each time.'cause I follow her to where she goes and she's awesome and keeps getting promoted, but. I have my Sally Kim voice and I have my Maisie Cochrane voice. So Maisie is my editor at Tin House and I've done two books with her. I hope to do another book. And, so that's how I talk about these books with my, with my agent at this point. Where's like, is it Sally or is it Maisie?

Kelton 55:40

I really love that framing. Chris

Courtney Maum 55:41

it's

Kelton 55:42

I both have the, we're both working on two projects each, and the tone of them is very different from each other. And trying to think about, you know, we're at the stage. Chris has an agent, and I'm querying right now talking to a few agents and trying to figure out like, who, who wants to see through these different versions of ourselves. And it's amazing that your agent was like, oh, fine. Jesus, whatever you write, Courtney. But the eight

Courtney Maum 56:07

Yeah. Cost Allegre was a battle. We had an actual fight in Prosta Park, like yelling at each other, with love. But, again, Publishing is hyper-focused on the products

Kelton 56:18

mm-hmm.

Courtney Maum 56:19

for sale. They're not, they're not as adept. I think it's always been an industry that's actually at trend forecasting, which is weird. don't understand why. Because fashion companies get it right. Makeup companies get it right. Wallpaper companies get it right. They get it really right.

Kelton 56:37

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 56:38

publishing is at it. Awful, awful. Um, it is so easy. Trend forecasting, like right now there's a whole meat, there's a very carnivore trend in, in publishing. oh God, where did it come from? I mean, hello. if you have everyone eating clean and they're on ozempic, the, the, well then we're gonna go toward hungry. If you have the rich eating us alive, we're gonna go toward cannibalism. It's really not that hard. But anyway, um, You know, the thing, the thing is, if, when, if, if, if someone is out there thinking, like, I also feel like I could write, I wanna write in a bunch of different registers. I, I have a different, couple different genres in me, and you're looking around for agents, it is good to ask upfront like, Hey, uh, can you follow me across genres or not?'cause you don't wanna find out that only wanna do fiction when you have your memoir ready. But the way to phrase it, um, is never like, I'm all over the place. I'm doing all these different things. You really wanna present yourself as someone who has core nugget, or there's this strand of DNA that's gonna show up in every single project. So I, I like to say like I write about art under capitalism. Art under capitalism is. Addressed in every single one of my books, it will always be addressed. It's, it's in the thing I'm working on now. So art, art under capitalism, the artist under capitalism. That's, that's my DNA strand. That's in everything. So, so just be careful, you know, multi genre people out there to, to not make it sound like you're manic and all over the place because you're not, you're just, you need different structures and voices and tonal registers to get your point across. It's not always going to be, you know, this one way, this one structure, this chronological narrative,

Kelton 58:41

This reminds me of something that you just wrote on Substack about blurbs actually, and you included an example of someone requesting a blurb from you where they're like, oh, my sweet silly book. Like, maybe if you're not too crazy busy, you'll have a second to like shine your light down on me. And I loved your, your cut down of that kind of request and calling it kind of like peasant energy and apologizing for like, the work that goes into all of these things. Where do you think that, like, tell me about that instinct to be like, take your work seriously, like be who you are.

Courtney Maum 59:16

this happens all the time, right? Like, that note that I in my substack that was made, I made it up based on like the kind of letters I get. And the, the peasant thing was, was people writing me for blurb requests. Like, I am a nothing burger and a, and my book that is worth nothing, but actually got, you know, seven figure advance, you know, blah, blah, blah. And just like, who? It just gets me really upset.'cause who are we fooling? Even if you're a celebrity, even if you're a celebrity who had to hire a ghost writer. still taking time to meet with that ghost writer. The, the amazing thing about books for the moment until AI takes over is that they, they still do, they need years of work and someone has to do that work. So, know, I'm just always telling writers like, you gotta, it's not just taking your work seriously, but like get ready and be ready to speak coherently and proudly, but not egocentrically about your book. So what that looks like is, let's say you're prepping to go to a WP, this big conference that just happened. you know that people are gonna be like, oh, you're a writer. What are you writing? So, practice that at home, practice delivering, you know, a 18 second response that's not gonna make people back away from you. up with a log line, make sure you have a good title. Make sure you have a good subtitle. And if you don't. Invent one so that when you meet, what happens if you meet the editor of your dreams in an elevator and they're like, oh, they look at your name tag and they're like, oh, Nebraska. You know, be ready to be like, not only am I from Nebraska, but I'm writing like a queer, don't know, body horror book, but do, do, go, go, go. Be ready and, and so talk about readiness, like your book's coming out. You need to ask an author you would hopefully admire for a blurb, and you're like, ho hum with a silly little me. I don't know how this happened. You don't know how it happened. I do, because I've done it. I know how it happened. It's probably four or five years of work. Tears

Kelton 1:01:24

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Maum 1:01:25

through, you queried 97 times. Like, come on, just be like Like I am so excited. My debut novel that I spent seven years, it's coming out. You're the first person I wanted to write to be excited because trust me, I don't need any reminders busy and I don't have time to read and are a bummer. You don't need to remind me of any of that. I know. most of these letters are like, I know the world is on fire and you're so busy. Okay. Yep. We can stop there now. Now I'm like, and why don't, you've just told me I don't have time for this,

Kelton 1:02:07

Yeah. You're like, well, now that you've mentioned it, uh, you're right.

Courtney Maum 1:02:11

it's crazy. It's such a wild way and I'm sure like someone will probably look up my blurb request and I'm, I'm, I've definitely committed this error of error. Of course.

Kelton 1:02:22

Sure.

Courtney Maum 1:02:22

I can admit it and tell you. Don't do that.

Kelton 1:02:25

Yeah. Learn, learn from my mistakes that I no longer remember.

Courtney Maum 1:02:28

that. You know? And I, I like meet people, you know, it just came back from a WP and I'll meet people. I'm like, so are you a writer on? And I don't know if I can call myself a writer. I'm not your therapist. Just my god. You know, like, I like helping people, but, but just tell me what you're writing. Don't

Kelton 1:02:48

I appreciate Yeah. That,

Courtney Maum 1:02:50

you know?

Kelton 1:02:50

yeah. That you care.

Courtney Maum 1:02:51

people and be like, what is your title? Are you trying to query? I wanna get to the fun part of the conversation. Not the,

Kelton 1:02:58

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Maum 1:02:59

how to identify as a, yeah, not

Kelton 1:03:00

Yeah. Not the layers of like disclaimers where you're like, okay.

Courtney Maum 1:03:03

Okay.

Kelton 1:03:04

Got it.

Courtney Maum 1:03:04

For your journal, that's for your diary. That's why you practice. That's why you practice when you're gonna go out and listen. I get it. I get it. That most of us writers are in our little caves. We don't get to talk to people very often. So those social situations can be harrowing. That's why you practice, practice with someone low stakes. Go practice with your cat. Go practice with the person at the bodega.

Kelton 1:03:27

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 1:03:28

don't have your first practice. Be with a published author or editor. You know, someone who is actually in the, a, a place where they could,

Kelton 1:03:37

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 1:03:38

around it. Just practice.

Kelton 1:03:40

Yeah. Practice with a few boomers who are like, what is it about?

Courtney Maum 1:03:43

There you go. Or boomers and like six, seven year olds. They've got,

Kelton 1:03:47

Mm.

Courtney Maum 1:03:48

else to do or tweens. Woo. You wanna practice? I call it my daughter. She has no attention span. Uh,

Kelton 1:03:54

you can break the, the target zone,

Courtney Maum 1:03:57

there

Kelton 1:03:58

know that you've really accomplished something.

Courtney Maum 1:04:00

a tween.

Kelton 1:04:01

I love that you care how people show up in this writerly world that we're in. What do you think it takes to be a good literary citizen these days?

Courtney Maum 1:04:11

practice talking to people. Really? To be a big, a good literary citizen, you gotta spend money on the things that you want to appear in, right? So like, you wanna have a book on the shelves, well, you've gotta go to the indie bookstores and buy some books or order them from the indie bookstores. You want to, I don't know. Get people to pay for your newsletter. Well, you should be paying for some other people's newsletters. You wanna be published in the Paris Review? Well, are you subscribing to the Paris Review? You are gonna have to spend money on some stuff, you know, and, oh, like you want one day to have a successful pre-order campaign? Well, when's the last time you pre-ordered a book? You know, you really have to show up financially in the spaces where you want people to financially support you. And it's, it's not Amazon, you know, it's, it's, it's it taking the time to go into your local bookstore, painful price for a hardcover. And I, trust me, I know how tight things are and that, that's really hard. Luckily these expenses are tax deductible for most writers. But. You must do that because doing it, spending 30 bucks or whatever it is to pre-order, somebody's book will help you mitigate feelings of hurt when you find out that you only, I don't know, seven people have pre-ordered your own book. You'll remember like, God, well I remember what it was like to press, like buy and 30 bucks felt like a lot. You know what I mean? Whereas if you don't engage financially in these spaces, you'll be like, wow, I got no pre-orders. Why? You know what I

Kelton 1:05:58

Yeah,

Courtney Maum 1:05:58

I

Kelton 1:05:58

it's also like pre-ordering someone's book and then like getting it the day they're posting about it on Instagram. You know, it's like, it feels like you're part of it. It's fun.

Courtney Maum 1:06:08

It's very exciting. I, I just, I had pre-ordered, my last pre-order was WPI by Tera Madden and it showed up on Thursday instead of Tuesday. bookshop.org, get your act together. But, I literally, I've seeing her, all of her posts and I was like, that's right. On, I'm, I'm on the inside and I'm, I'm always trying, I'm trying to approach pre-order campaigns the way we used to in fashion. I used to work, I've clearly had a lot of jobs. I used to work in fashion pr and the way that people wait list, like pre purchase for like a handbag or something, is the level of excitement that we somehow need to, to bring to, to books. So it's like pre-order, like I'm trying to use like, you know, pre-purchase or you could order what, that is not a hot word. Order, get your order in early, like, oh great. Know, we could use a little bit more exciting language around like be one of the first in the know or whatever, whatever

Kelton 1:07:12

Yeah. Uh, well, you have perfect language set up with Alan opts out. You can have people opt into your book.

Courtney Maum 1:07:19

I, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is, that is, I discovered that, that, yeah, that is good.

Kelton 1:07:27

Speaking of, what are you opting into right now?

Courtney Maum 1:07:31

God. Well, okay. I'll tell you what I'm opting into. Um, I am opting into Mondays and Tuesdays, regardless of what happens. Working on something new, writing something new, and then trying Wednesday, th Thursday or Friday somewhere, one hour doing more, and first thing morning, regardless anything, because now that I'm in pre publication mode, quite literally could spend 8:00 AM to 7:00 PM every single day. On like the to-do list, the reaching out, the pitches and still, I, I wouldn't get anything near everything done. It, it's an all consuming beast being in pre-publication. Um, and it's not, it's healthy, you know,

Kelton 1:08:29

Yeah.

Courtney Maum 1:08:30

at all. It becomes, um, an rous of thing. So what I'm opting into right now is making sure that every week I've got what, what, five, six hours? Five, probably airplane mode on the phone inbox, not looking at it, write something new, advance, get, you know, I don't do like word count, but I, I try to, what I do is set like goals. Like, okay, I'm trying to write, you know, half a chapter each day. Basically just trying to move the chapters forward. That's like deeply, deeply. Important to me. And there will come a time where I lose all control when I'm on book tour and I won't be able to do it. But it's keeping me sane now, so is a very sacred ritual. And then I also, this I've been doing for, don't know, maybe even a decade. I don't work on weekends, so that remains sacred as well.

Kelton 1:09:25

Nice.

Courtney Maum 1:09:26

Nice.

Kelton 1:09:26

Top three books on your mind right now.

Courtney Maum 1:09:29

What

Kelton 1:09:29

Could be all time favorites. What's on your nightstand?

Courtney Maum 1:09:31

What's on your nightstand? right on my nightstands, I'm reading and almost done with, Melissa Eno's Hemlock. This is a, like a queer type of black swan that takes place in the Midwest, that involves an in recovery who. Starts to become something that is not in, in recovery and I'm loving it. I met Melissa, a WP, we're both little brown authors, so I'm really loving this book. Next up is, Whitby, which I, I mentioned I'm, I'm taking that on vacation. I'm going on vacation April 7th. And then, Lauren Huff's, new new memoir, which is a road trip. I is also coming on, vacation with me. So those are the, those are the three books that are kind of up right now. And then the book that I should be reading, but keep putting off the book called Tangled, about like how mothers can deal with tweens.

Kelton 1:10:34

Amazing.

Courtney Maum 1:10:35

And I need to read it. But I, in that arena is so upsetting and frustrating and difficult and to me right now that I'm like, Ugh, I'm putting it off. But what I have read so far is very helpful. So Tangled, I forget the author, but it's a huge bestseller. You'll find it easily.

Kelton 1:10:52

This is how I build my reading queue every week. Um, so tell everyone where can they pre-order Alan Ops out? Where can they find you and your retreats?

Courtney Maum 1:11:02

So I, I'm old school. I love my website. Courtney mom.com. You can find everything. Um, in fact, the first page of my website has a pre-order link where you'll, you'll get, so you'll get Alan ops out if you order from Oblong books, which is my favorite, local you, I will go in and sign it and they have a form. You can, I'll sign anything you want so I can sign it to. So it won't just be like random. So I, I'll write you a whole letter and we're gonna put little lobster stickers in, so That's very cute. Um, and then Turning Points, that's also on my website under writing retreats and applications are open until April 30th. Um, get'em in. They're rolling in, so don't sleep on that. And then, uh, yeah, I'll be on tour throughout June going from Connecticut all the way down to Atlanta by car.

Kelton 1:11:56

Nice.

Courtney Maum 1:11:57

Yeah. Um, and then California and I have some airplane, airplane stuff. Minneapolis, but

Kelton 1:12:05

Amazing.

Courtney Maum 1:12:06

Substack, you can also sign up for on courtney mom.com before and after the book Deal is the name of the Substack

Kelton 1:12:14

Courtney, this was awesome. I've been a big fan and it's so nice to meet you in the digital flesh.

Courtney Maum 1:12:19

Yes,

Kelton 1:12:19

and I'm so excited to read Alan Ops out and add it to my Cannon of Courtney. Mom books.

Courtney Maum 1:12:25

Well, thank you very much and good luck out there in Query Land and good luck to everyone who's listening, regardless of where you are, just keep the faith, keep your head down, do the work, and then from

Kelton 1:12:37

Keep writing.

Courtney Maum 1:12:38

go out with friends and have a good time and read the books, and buy the books, and you do the thing and you just keep going.

Kelton 1:12:45

That's all it takes. That's all it takes, guys.

Courtney Maum 1:12:47

it takes. You just keep going. Just hard work forever.

Kelton 1:12:53

loved that. I'm so sad that you had to miss that, Chris.

Krisserin 1:12:57

I'm sad too. I'm gonna have to connect with her'cause it feels like we have a lot in common.

Kelton 1:13:02

Yes, yes, yes. I also, like now I'm fantasizing about you and I going to her retreat in New Mexico in like 20, 27.

Krisserin 1:13:11

Whe when is it? What is

Kelton 1:13:14

I think it's in like October. I think she holds it in October, but like she said in the interview, applications are open for this year and they close April 30th. So get on it. Go to courtney mom.com and, and get your apps in.

Krisserin 1:13:27

You don't wanna go this October?

Kelton 1:13:30

No, girl. I already got, I already got stuff on the calendar this year. I can't squeeze in a, a, a week long writing session.

Krisserin 1:13:37

A week long. A week. That's long. That's exciting. I

Kelton 1:13:41

Yeah,

Krisserin 1:13:42

weekend, you know?

Kelton 1:13:45

I think it's a week. Go to

Krisserin 1:13:48

courtneymaum.com. we did talk last week about writing workshops and, and how to find them and I was thinking about it. I was actually reading her Substack from last week. She went to Tint House, I think the year after I went to Tint House. And that one week of. Being away from everybody and being around people who are doing the same thing as you. You really form the best connections and we've really inspired. So definitely something to look into if you're looking for an opportunity like that. And it sounds like the application period is still open and New Mexico in October is beautiful, so at least I assume so.'cause Sedona in October is beautiful, so climate.

Kelton 1:14:31

Well, she left me with one obvious goal for the week ahead.

Krisserin 1:14:35

Let's hear it.

Kelton 1:14:36

And that's to, work on the plot. We were talking about her upcoming book, Alan Ops out, and I asked her like, how'd you know it was a Big five book? And she was like, it had a plot. And I, it just like stuck with me thinking about the novel in particular. And that the last time I did work on it, the week prior, all the work on the plot, like really felt. Propulsive. And like I had a kind of momentum and I wanna just go back and like look at that plot and do something I had done originally with this book, which is right. The scenes I'm excited about. I have some of those scenes in that plot just like are just movies in my head. Like I know what happens. And so I think, you know, my big problem is. How does it all line up together? And it's like, just get some of the writing out. Figure out how it ties in later. But if you have scenes, you can write against that plot. Just write'em.

Krisserin 1:15:29

I like that I might steal that goal for myself, for my book work on the

Kelton 1:15:33

Oh.

Krisserin 1:15:34

'cause it's kind of like in my head. I'm getting to the point in writing the book now where I'm like, Ooh, I don't actually know all of these things. And it's getting a little bit harder. The creativity and the excitement is starting to become work. I do think writing out the plot would be helpful, so maybe that will be my goal as well. I like that goal.

Kelton 1:15:53

Oh,

Krisserin 1:15:53

Ooh.

Kelton 1:15:54

it. Do you have any plot books that you really like?

Krisserin 1:15:58

One book that I was thinking about when we were talking about our books, was a book called Wired for Story. And similar to you taking that screenwriting class, it is based on the principles of screenwriting and it

Kelton 1:16:12

I have it.

Krisserin 1:16:13

Yeah, it's a great book. I think that if anyone out there who, uh, is struggling with plot or how to write propulsive stories, it's a good book to pick up. I forget the author's name. But wired for story, it's got a black and white cover. a worthwhile purchase. I would buy it and not get it from the library because you wanna mark it up. There's so much good stuff there. I have like lots of flags in that book of things that I return to time and time again.

Kelton 1:16:39

Lisa.

Krisserin 1:16:41

It's it Crown with a C or a KC, right?

Kelton 1:16:45

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:16:46

right. Yeah. Go pick that

Kelton 1:16:48

And then one of my go-tos is John Trubes, the anatomy of story. Also incredibly helpful if you are, you are writing a plot driven book and are struggling with elements of it. Lee Stein references that in her plot class and, I find it incredibly useful to turn back to.

Krisserin 1:17:05

You should really pick up. Uh, let me, let me look up because I feel you finished Annihilation, right? Yeah. Um.

Kelton 1:17:13

picked up the other books in the series, but I did finish Annihilation.

Krisserin 1:17:17

It is. Did you, um, realize that it's like the 20th anniversary of that book being published?

Kelton 1:17:23

No

Krisserin 1:17:24

Um, yeah. They had a whole big display at, um, Barnes and Noble with all of his books on it.'cause it's like the anniversary of that book coming out.

Kelton 1:17:35

Funny.

Krisserin 1:17:36

It's all about plot and structure. It's a book that my teacher from Harvard recommended and it's actually, it's beautiful. It's illustrated with crazy like monsters and stuff. That's why I think you would like it. It's like a visual guide to structure and plot.

Kelton 1:17:54

I love that.

Krisserin 1:17:54

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Well, it sounds like we have our, our goals for the week. anything coming up that you think might be impediments to those goals?

Kelton 1:18:09

I, well, I wanted to ask about a bit of motivation behind that goal. Like if there's a way that we could share our plot structures with each other, like turn this into a little bit more of homework for me.

Krisserin 1:18:20

Ooh,

Kelton 1:18:22

'cause I think that would make me, I. Dial it in a little more because I, I, there's a lot of things that I'm like, I'll remember that, and then I don't write it down. And I do usually remember it, but I'm like, just commit babe. Just why are you writing it down?

Krisserin 1:18:36

I know.

Kelton 1:18:37

And so I'd like a little, homework that I have to have a de, I need a deliverable.

Krisserin 1:18:42

Well let me ask you, because you are a kind of like a note card girly, like a note card on the wall girl, right?

Kelton 1:18:49

I tried it. No, I tried it and I hated it.

Krisserin 1:18:51

Oh,

Kelton 1:18:52

I hated it.

Krisserin 1:18:53

I really like, um,'cause I'm not an outliner as you

Kelton 1:18:58

I'm a, yeah, I, I'm like more like a Google doc girl. I'm like, this happens that this happens, that this happens.

Krisserin 1:19:06

Uhhuh Uhhuh. I am, I like to draw a flowchart. That's how I like to plot out like a big piece of paper and like with like lines going to things with, because then I'll put like, oh, this big action's gonna happen. But then there's this like little thing that happens that's important to the plot later, and then I'll like connect it down to other things. But I think what we should do is you share your Google Doc with me and I'll take a photo. Of whatever I draw out.

Kelton 1:19:35

Okay.

Krisserin 1:19:35

I, I get those like extra large, post-it notes and I use those sometimes and I like stick'em on the wall

Kelton 1:19:42

I did try that and then I just like abandoned it.

Krisserin 1:19:46

Yeah. I don't know why, my brain works that way a little bit more visually, but I think we should do it in whatever format works best for us and share it with each other.

Kelton 1:19:56

I need one of those, harnesses for carriage horses where their eyes are blocked out.

Krisserin 1:20:00

You need

Kelton 1:20:01

Um, I need blinders. Like when I try to do work spatially, I get too distracted by the broader space. Like that's why like I, you know, goblin into my, my, not my computer so well is'cause I like, I'm like so focused. So I think that's, that's what, that's what helps. One tab, one Scrivener Vial, one Google Doc.

Krisserin 1:20:24

Remember in high school when we would

Kelton 1:20:25

I.

Krisserin 1:20:25

tests and they would put up the, like the blind, the, the wall of privacy blinders, so we wouldn't cheat off each other. Or was that

Kelton 1:20:31

No, no, they didn't do that at my school.

Krisserin 1:20:35

Well, I, that tells you a lot about my high school that

Kelton 1:20:38

It's us.

Krisserin 1:20:39

poster boards, like custom made poster boards to like block us into our desks.

Kelton 1:20:44

Hilarious.

Krisserin 1:20:45

for cheating. My high school is like, oh yeah, in the newspaper. Famous for

Kelton 1:20:51

Oh wow. Wow. That's big leagues.

Krisserin 1:20:54

Yeah, rich kids are creative on how to get around doing what they need to do. Um, but yeah, so I will, today is Thursday. I, I think by Sunday evening, I should have time to send you, I won't do it through Thursday of next week, but this weekend I will send you a photo

Kelton 1:21:15

Okay.

Krisserin 1:21:16

my plot proof, proof of proof of work, proof of

Kelton 1:21:18

I'm probably not gonna do any work until Monday for me. So it will get to you during the, the week. I promised Woods Friday, Saturday and Sunday. We're just gonna be woodsy days'cause he's like really starting to like be mad about going to daycare.

Krisserin 1:21:35

Oh,

Kelton 1:21:36

I know. Which sucks.

Krisserin 1:21:39

that

Kelton 1:21:39

He's like, he has fun when I come pick him up. Like it's not like I'm getting him and he's like, I ate it all day. He's like, hi mom. This was fun. I'm like, yeah, you love your friends. You love like your caretakers here, so, but you know, it's tough in the morning. He's like, stay home.

Krisserin 1:21:56

Yeah, I, I mean, I think we can all relate to that, but

Kelton 1:22:00

Yeah. Stay home.

Krisserin 1:22:01

life that we have to go out into the world and do work and

Kelton 1:22:06

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Krisserin 1:22:11

a homebody too now. And I don't live in a beautiful mountain cabin like you do. I can only imagine him not wanting to leave.

Kelton 1:22:19

Yeah. He is like, why would I leave here? You, you built this alpine paradise for me.

Krisserin 1:22:24

Absolutely. With all of his furry friends.

Kelton 1:22:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Krisserin 1:22:28

doing by the way?

Kelton 1:22:30

He's good actually. Thanks for asking. He got all his blood work and everything back and he's fine. He has to go back in two months for another weight check.'cause if he's still losing weight, then they do think it's something wrong with his bowels. But to have all his blood work and urine and all that stuff come back totally normal and even look, look really good is, you know, it's promising.

Krisserin 1:22:49

It's great. That's

Kelton 1:22:51

He's just secretly taking ozempic.

Krisserin 1:22:54

Yeah. He's like, I'm on this GLP one.

Kelton 1:22:59

Paw one.

Krisserin 1:23:03

Oh Finn, I didn't know you were so vain. Cute.

Kelton 1:23:08

Yeah, he is like, I'm getting ready for you to revive your Instagram. So.

Krisserin 1:23:13

What's going on with that?

Kelton 1:23:15

I had a re co viral last night on Kelton Kin. And so now I'm like, I should have put it on the other one. What am I doing? I should have just tried to fix Kelton, writes some more. I feel, I feel out in the wind on it.

Krisserin 1:23:29

would it have gone viral on den rates though?

Kelton 1:23:31

I don't know. I could, post it as a trial reel and see. So there's, there's still options, but, it's not about any of my work or anything related to why people would subscribe to my work, so that doesn't help.

Krisserin 1:23:46

Damn.

Kelton 1:23:47

Yeah.

Krisserin 1:23:49

Okay. Well. Then you know where to follow Kelton.

Kelton 1:23:53

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:23:54

along with us, always write to us at official Pen pals pod@gmail.com. Follow kelton at Kelton Kin on Instagram and Kelton writes on TikTok. You can read her writing@shinglogs.substack.com if you're interested or the murmuration, you can go to kelton wright.com and look at all of those fun courses there. You can follow me at Chris on TikTok, although I haven't really been posting that much and I've only been posting stupid videos, so. But you know, if you're bored, you can follow me there and then, you can follow my writing@chris.substack.com. But yeah, it's gonna be a fun week. I'm excited. I'm, I'm so grateful that Courtney Maum gave us this idea.'Cause I feel like it's something very achievable in terms of goals for next week.

Kelton 1:24:41

Yeah, all there is now is the writing.

Krisserin 1:24:46

That's right. We gotta get to work.

Kelton 1:24:48

Happy writing, everybody get to work.

Krisserin 1:24:51

Get to work, everybody get get your ass to your

Kelton 1:24:56

Get outta here.

Krisserin 1:24:57

and get some fucking work done. Alright, have a good week. Bye.