"No Agent Is Better Than a Bad Agent": Lauren Khan on Finding the Right Fit

Krisserin attended Rachel Hochhauser's birthday book signing in Studio City and wrote 3,300 words on her middle grade love story. Kelton got a rejection with feedback from her dream agent — a thoughtful no that somehow made everything clearer, even if the proposal still needs a full rework. Both hosts are sitting with that particular in-between feeling: not stuck exactly, just parked on the side of the road with their thumbs out.

Which makes the timing of this week's guest feel almost cosmically right. Lauren Khan is a literary agent at Fine Print Literary, host of the Prose Pros podcast, and a psychological thriller author currently querying her own debut novel The Gold Coast — which means she is simultaneously building her client list and watching her own query tracker obsessively. Lauren found her way to agenting after years as a corporate lawyer in Manhattan, a pregnancy, a move to Florida, and the realization that the skills she'd spent years developing in big law — contracts, negotiations, client communication — were exactly what the publishing world needed more of.

The conversation covers everything: why Lauren queried before her manuscript was technically finished (and why she tells clients not to do this), how she accumulated 15 full manuscript requests by refusing to self-reject even the agents she was most intimidated by, and what it felt like to leave her first agent — going from agented author back to just a writer — and why she knew she had to do it anyway. She breaks down what she looks for in a query (comps, a one-sentence pitch, and a back-of-book-style summary), what makes her close her Kindle and not want to pick it back up the next morning, and why no agent is genuinely better than a bad agent, even when turning one down feels terrifying.

Plus: Krisserin and Kelton compare their wildly different plot homework (one spider-web on an oversized Post-it, one color-coded Excel spreadsheet), both celebrate actually completing their goals this week, and Kelton gets perspective from a new therapist who knows the literary world — and had the receipts to put her timeline in context.

Learn more about Lauren Khan:
Website: https://www.laurenjpkhan.com
Query Lauren: https://QueryTracker.net/query/laurenjpkhan
Instagram / TikTok: @laurenjpkhan
The Prose Pros Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-prose-pros/id1835741861

Books Mentioned in this episode:
God of the Woods by Liz Moore
In My Dreams I Hold a Knife by Ashley Winstead 
One and Only by Maureen Goo 
It's Different This Time by Josh Richard 
Every Summer After by Carley Fortune 
Before and After the Book Deal by Courtney Maum 
Best Offer Wins by Marisa Kashino

Write to us:
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Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

Krisserin 0:00

Hello, pen pal's podcast listeners. This is Chris Aaron

Kelton 0:03

This is.

Krisserin 0:04

and we're opening this episode with a request. If you are a listener to our podcast and you have not subscribed, if you could do a huge favor and go on your favorite podcast source, whether it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever else it may be, and just click that subscribe button. It'll really help us out a lot with our numbers and we really appreciate it, especially if you love listening to us. Help us keep the podcast going with your support. Thank you so much.

Speaker 0:29

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections

Speaker 2 0:37

and hopefully eventual success

Speaker 0:39

from California to

Speaker 2 0:40

Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton 0:43

How was your week, Krisserin?

Krisserin 0:45

It was actually not bad.

Kelton 0:49

It was actually not bad. Most weeks are bad, but this one was not.

Krisserin 0:54

Well, I feel like because I edit all of the episodes, every time we open it, I'm like, ugh. You know, but this week was not bad. Last night I went to Rachel Hawk Houser's book signing event in LA and it was so cute. It was at this bookstore in Studio City that I'd never even heard of. I didn't even know these places existed until our friends came through town. Olivia Muenter had a book signing event in, Tarzana, which is right down the street from me. Love these Valley small independent bookstores. So it was really cute and it was her birthday yesterday, which I thought was so, what a nice way to spend your birthday, you know?

Kelton 1:32

Hell yeah. Happy birthday and Happy New York Times bestseller list, Rachel.

Krisserin 1:37

I know it was so cool to meet her in real life there. It was a packed house, adorable bookstore, great interview, great snacks. And they give away puzzles if you, one of her puzzles if you bought a book. So I bought her a book. I got a puzzle and I bought the kids books because, and some stickers'cause I can't help myself. It was great. It was wonderful.

Kelton 1:56

That's

Krisserin 1:56

Yeah. And I wrote this week.

Kelton 1:59

Yeah.

Krisserin 2:00

Which is incredible. I mean, outside of our homework, I wrote like 3,300 words of my book.

Kelton 2:05

Oh, that's amazing. Wait, which book? Which you have like three, four books happening right now. Which book?

Krisserin 2:12

that's not exactly accurate, but it's, I'm calling it middle school love story. That's what I'm calling it. Yeah.

Kelton 2:19

good. Um, and that is the one that you completed the homework for, listeners last week, our goals were to really work on the plots of our current novels, and Krisserin, we both did our homework.

Krisserin 2:34

I know I was thinking about that as I was getting ready this morning. I was like, we get to tell everyone that we accomplished our goals this week. It's incredible. And you know, I wouldn't have if I hadn't been editing the episode and I realized that I had told you I was gonna give you homework by Sunday and it was Sunday. And I was like, shit, I better.

Kelton 2:52

mean, I said I was gonna do mine on Monday, and then I didn't get a chance to, so I like had a, had a fever dream on Tuesday and did all of it.

Krisserin 2:59

And our homeworks could not be more different. Mine was this like, I don't know, spider web of plot happenings, and yours was this very detailed Excel spreadsheet.

Kelton 3:10

I don't, which is like, not really how I see us either. But I, um, I was really, mean, I was really delighted by your plot work of this, the spider web, like written down on a piece of paper, not even a white piece of paper, it was like an orange piece of paper. Was that construction paper.

Krisserin 3:28

No, no, no. It's an oversized post-it note.

Kelton 3:32

Oh

Krisserin 3:32

like stick it on the wall afterward. Yeah, I love those.

Kelton 3:35

Well, it was very enchanting, and mine was very linear. I was having a lot of trouble thinking about what was happening for different characters at. Points in my book and like, who was really relevant to the storyline. And so I had to like plot out everything that happens and what is happening for each of those characters in that moment. So it did help me think through like, okay, I hadn't made this character strong enough. I hadn't intertwined this character in the way I had imagined. and so I, I feel good now. I'm like, oh, I now I just have to write it.

Krisserin 4:08

You know, actually I wasn't surprised so much because knowing how we both write, I'm a pants and you're an outliner. So I think that the way that we wrote out our plots is indicative of how our brains work. No.

Kelton 4:21

Yeah, I, I'm just not sure if I am an outliner or not. Like does that apply let me start my question over. Let's see what, see what's happening in my brain. I'm pantsing right now on this question, but like in essay work, I am a pants, I don't have an outline for the essays I do. I just sit down and write them and whatever comes, comes the nonfiction proposal, you have to be an outliner. You can't just send in a nonfiction book. People don't want that. for fiction, I've never written an entire fiction book, so how do I know if I'm an outliner or a pants yet? tried outlining. That doesn't mean I've written the book. Maybe I should just try pantsing something.

Krisserin 5:07

Last night. During Rachel's interview, someone asked her this question, like, do you outline her or whatever. And she says she has this very specific way of writing and I feel like it's very similar to what I do, which is she writes her way into the novel to get the feel of it and like start understanding what the problems are and then she'll go and start writing out how everything's going to work. And I feel like that's similar to what you and I both do. I feel like everyone gets an idea. And they're not gonna sit down and like storyboard at first or kind of start writing it and feeling it out and seeing what the characters sound like and all of that. So I think it'll, it'll evolve. This is your first novel, so

Kelton 5:51

Yeah.

Krisserin 5:52

it'll change over time. By the time you're on your fifth,

Kelton 5:55

Oh

Krisserin 5:55

you'll have it down.

Kelton 5:56

when I'm like 80.

Krisserin 5:59

Don't say that it'll be faster, sooner than that. Um. I was gonna say, and then I wanna hear how, how your week went. I got to see, I went and saw, um, project Hail Mary.

Kelton 6:10

Oh yeah.

Krisserin 6:12

Yeah, it was,

Kelton 6:13

I've been, every time I see a trailer I think of Olivia mentor.

Krisserin 6:17

why is that? Because,

Kelton 6:18

'cause she like loves that book. I think

Krisserin 6:20

oh.

Kelton 6:21

loves Andy Weir. She had so much stakes in like it being produced emotionally and I think of her every time.

Krisserin 6:28

It's funny because I saw her story on Instagram and it was like second round. I'm like, she's seeing it again. It's a two and a half hour long movie.

Kelton 6:36

Was it?

Krisserin 6:37

It was great. I, you know, I, I'm always a little skeptical of adaptations and have very high standards for them, but I think that they did an incredible job of taking a very complex scientific. Text. My husband hates those parts of the book, by the way. It was like, it's science. He's like, shut the fuck up. It's so stupid. So they stripped out a lot of that. They like paired down the storyline and it doesn't feel like two and a half hours. It goes by so quickly and it's visually stunning. They built the whole set for it. They didn't do green screens. They built rocky. And you can really feel that it's, it's really. Fun. I'll probably, I would go see it again. My mom's gonna be in town in April and, she has expressed interest in seeing it, so I might take her to go see it again. But it was nice, it was a cute little date night, that boy, and, and I, I mean, I scheduled it. I, I made it happen, but it was lovely. So, yeah, it was a good week. How was your week?

Kelton 7:37

It was, it was good. I got what I needed to get done, done, and I had a light workload. But I just still kind of, still kind of not feeling right, you know? We've started like the slow battle toward weaning. I know like everybody on my Instagram was like, you just have to like leave for a week.

Krisserin 8:06

Sounds

Kelton 8:06

like, yeah. I was like, I'm not that girl. I know that works. And you know, push comes to shove. I will be leaving for like four days in August. So like, if he's not weaned by then he will be. But you know, it's just, winter's coming back here, which I'm like grateful for because we need it in terms of climate. But I'm also like, I was ready to be warm. So I just like something's, something's not sitting right in my brain and I, I'm just trying to let it work itself out, you know?

Krisserin 8:35

Those weird in between times are so hard, especially if you can't like put your finger on what it is. Yeah.

Kelton 8:40

Oh, I almost was gonna forget to tell you I heard back from another agent.

Krisserin 8:45

And.

Kelton 8:46

Well, it's a no, but, it was again, a no with feedback and help. So that was really nice. Like they had like fully read the proposal, and this particular agent was in the UK and they were like, I think you'll, this will have more resonance in the us.

Krisserin 9:00

Wait, was this

Kelton 9:01

for an American agent.

Krisserin 9:03

the like dream agent?

Kelton 9:04

this was, yeah. Um, so it was nice to like. Make contact, um, and just be like a name in their inbox, uh, and get some useful feedback again on a project I don't feel like working on.

Krisserin 9:16

How did you,

Kelton 9:16

good.

Krisserin 9:17

how did you feel when you got that email?

Kelton 9:20

Oh fine. Actually, I, you know, I kind of like sat there to be like, what are you feeling? What's going on? But it was like, it was just, I knew, I, I knew so deeply at this point that that project had needed a bunch of work in order to like become something. And so to even have known that they like read it and enjoyed parts of it, uh. That I was like, yeah, great. Like, I agree. There was not an invitation to submit again. But the more I've thought about it, like we've talked about that dream agent a lot, that she would not represent my novel. And so in

Krisserin 9:55

Right.

Kelton 9:55

She is, she has represented books I love, and I, I told her and her assistant on the email, I was like, I, I can't wait to see who you guys represent next because it's like they're all over my bookshelf. But I, I don't fit into like, who I wanna be as a writer does not fit in her client roster.

Krisserin 10:15

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 10:16

So, and you know, yeah, that's a good lesson to learn now I think.

Krisserin 10:22

Yeah. Was the feedback, new information that helps you think about the proposal differently? Was it a little bit similar to what you got before from the last agent? Okay.

Kelton 10:34

Yeah. So I mean, I know what I need to do on that project and it's just a matter of wanting to do it. I'm making a face. I

Krisserin 10:42

I was making a face too.

Kelton 10:44

I wish people could see the face that I'm making. Um,

Krisserin 10:48

Listening on YouTube,

Kelton 10:50

yeah, if you watch on YouTube, you'd see that little face I just made.

Krisserin 10:54

my mom definitely will see it.

Kelton 10:56

Yeah, I can't wait for your mom to see it. The little like lip biting, personal skepticism.

Krisserin 11:03

There is something about like when you mentally feel like you've gotten a project as like far as you can get it, and then you get some feedback where you're like, I have to do more work on this because mentally you have to overcome that block of like, I got it to the finish line that I thought I needed to get it to. It's like climbing a peak and then there's another peak and you're like, fuck, I'm so tired. I'm gonna turn around.

Kelton 11:28

yeah. It's like what it feels like to me is that like. I'm climbing up to the ridge line to get to a, a lake on the other side down in the valley. And it turns out that at the top of this ridge line, the lake is actually not down in that valley. It's over the other ridge line. I've not reached a false summit. I haven't even gotten to the. line, I need to be climbing because with the proposal, I have to rework everything. The chapter summaries, the sample chapters, the, like, the, maybe the, maybe the like brief descriptions of it still stand, but like, I have to fundamentally rework the entire thing. And so for me, I'm like, okay, I, I don't wanna do that right now.

Krisserin 12:11

I feel like you and I are both in these interesting in-between spaces with our projects. Me with my book with my agent and you with this proposal, which is, it is frustrating'cause we've been working toward it for so long to now be stalled in this weird, on the side of the road. Put your thumb out.

Kelton 12:30

I was trialing a new therapist the other week who actually knows quite a bit about writers and the literary scene and I was just kind of expressing some of my frustration with Shangri Logs and all these projects I'm doing like they're not going anywhere. And I was kind of talking about, you know, I wanted to be a literary thinker, you know, I wanna be like a Sheryl Strait or an Anne Lamot. she was very aptly, like, you've only been doing Shangri Logs for just shy of five years. The grind that those women did before they became who you know them as is so much longer and deeper than that.

Krisserin 13:07

Wow.

Kelton 13:08

she was like, so you just need to just keep weathering the storm and learn to appreciate the rain a little. And

Krisserin 13:15

Damn.

Kelton 13:16

like, God damn,

Krisserin 13:18

Well she sounds like she's perfect for you.

Kelton 13:20

I know. I was like, okay, guess. See you next week.

Krisserin 13:23

Donna 2.0

Kelton 13:25

Ugh. I missed Donna.

Krisserin 13:28

Donna, yeah, it's, when you think about it, it, it's a never ending slog. And while there are people out there who have these incredible deals and, have a lot of good luck and a lot of great connections for most writers, it takes a really long time. And I just remind myself that some of our favorite writers didn't publish their first book until their mid forties and fifties and their whole literary life happened after that point. And we still have young kids and we still have a lot of shit we gotta do. To support our household. So it'll happen. And these are the times when we're just like sharpening our blades and becoming stronger and better. And by the time we get out of this period, our work is gonna be fucking undeniably good. That's the way we have to think about it. But in the meantime,

Kelton 14:18

Yeah.

Krisserin 14:19

in the meantime.

Kelton 14:20

In the.

Krisserin 14:24

Lord. Well, speaking of agents and submitting and all of that fun stuff, we actually have an agent on the podcast today. We are going to be interviewing Lauren Khan, and she's also a friend of the pod, a fan of pen pals, so we're so happy to have her on. Lauren is a literary agent at Fine Print, literary, and a psychological thriller author herself. She's the host of the Prose Pros podcast. I find that to be so clever, the Prose Pros podcast. And in a past life she was a corporate lawyer in New York City. She reps adult NYA commercial fiction across romance thrillers, women's fiction and fantasy plus S select on fiction. And she's currently querying her own debut thriller, the Gold Coast. She's one of those people who sits on both sides, and she also has this really interesting legal background. I'm sure it helps her with her contract negotiations and yeah, we're just so thrilled to have her on the podcast today. So without further ado, here's Lauren. Hi Lauren. Welcome to the pod.

Lauren 15:34

Good morning. Thank you so much for having me.

Krisserin 15:37

We're so excited to have you. I know you're our first agent.

Lauren 15:41

What? Oh my goodness. This is amazing. I'm so excited.

Krisserin 15:45

We're excited. We're so happy to have you. And we're, you know, we were, we were mentioning in the intro how fun it is to have a guest who's a listener. Then we've had a couple of those, Olivia and, a few others, which is so nice'cause you just get it and you have a podcast yourself. So thanks so much for, being so supportive of Pen Pals Pod.

Lauren 16:06

Well, of course. It's funny you mentioned Olivia. That's how I found out about the show was, her singing the praises of pen pals on bat, on paper and, yeah, I've just, I've loved it ever since. I loved your co-host vibe. Now I'm a co-host myself and it's a special, it's a special relationship.

Krisserin 16:22

We do have some questions prepared for you. First off, I, I find it so interesting that you have this background as a corporate attorney. So you did that for quite a few years living in New York City before you transitioned into publishing. So I'm really interested because obviously publishing's a lot of contracts and negotiations. Do you feel like your, your legal background has given you an edge as an agent?

Lauren 16:45

Definitely, absolutely. When I was, switching into this field, I kept hearing from people that one of the biggest pain points with agents is that they don't know how to go negotiate very well. The contracts are very intimidating. The publishing side, they're good on, but it's everything that comes after. Once you sign the client, once you, you know, edit the client, take it out on submission, it's everything that comes during the deal phase. That is the thing that they struggle with most. And I just felt like, okay, well that's the, that's what I've been training for. Everything else is fun for me. Like I, the publishing side, this is just me getting to read, write, edit. I have so much fun with that, the part that I've been working on, um, that will set me apart and I really feel like it has, like I am not intimidated by contracts at all. So I do feel like it brings me an edge it also, it just showed me a different career that I didn't love. And so getting to wake up every day and do this career just makes me love this job so much more.

Krisserin 17:40

Last night at, Rachel ER's book signing, she talked about how the job of being a writer versus the job of being an author. They're like two completely different jobs. And there's the fun part of like working on your book, working with your editor, but then there's a whole, being an author is a whole different industry. She's like, I feel like I'm an intern and I'm just like learning on the job to do all of this other work. So I would assume that. This part of it is probably a huge benefit to the writers on your list because they feel, they probably feel like really supported and what can be a very scary and intimidating, I would think, process of going on submission and selling a book and dealing with rights. What are, what are, what are those? What are writing.

Lauren 18:23

know. I know so many. There are so many things that I feel like I can guide my authors through Also. One thing I always bring up during my offer calls is my client services background. So that's the other thing I think that sets me apart is I have been working for corporate clients for many, many years, corporate clients who I was, you know, doing million dollar deals for. And if I didn't respond to an email, like a lot of agents tend to do. That, that would've been it for me. Like I, I, I would've been fired or I would've been reprimanded. I mean, I, there were times where maybe I didn't confirm receipt within a couple hours to a big client. And, um, the more senior attorney I was working for was like, what are you doing? Like, you have to confirm receipt. So I always say during my offer calls, like you will never not hear from me. Like, I will never ghost you. I mean, I, I just hear that from author friends all the time, how they're au. Agents have not responded to them, and I'm just like, that's not client services. Like what are you, what are you doing? You have to respond to your clients. So I think that also, you know, working at a big law firm in Manhattan like that, I learned that as well, that you can't just not respond to an email.

Kelton 19:30

you make the switch? Because it like, sounds like you're perfectly aligned. You know, it's like, but you have those moments where you're looking at your resume and you're like, I'm perfect for this job. That's totally out of my career path. How did you actually make it happen?

Lauren 19:43

I love that question so much. Um, it was one of those things that a few years ago when I was living in New York, working in big law, it started like nagging at me in the back of my brain. Like I think I would be a really good literary agent. I had just found out about this career path. I had no idea it existed, um, when I was writing my own novel. Learning about the querying process, starting to listen to podcasts, um, just kind of immersing myself in publishing. And I knew CC Lira from the shit No. And tells you about writing was an, an attorney and so I, anything that she said about switching into the agenting career path, I was like taking notes. I was like, I have to figure this out. Um, Carly Waters also from the shit, um, had an, a workshop on how to become a literary agent. And I, I did the workshop. I was so excited. I was like, okay, like I'm gonna do this. And my number one takeaway was, you have to start as an assistant or intern. And I was living in Manhattan. I mean, I. With my, you know, salary that was like supporting our rent in Manhattan. Um, I also worked a job that I couldn't just add in an internship. Like, I mean, I was working around the clock, um, at this big law firm, and so I was kind of I remember going to lunch with my husband and being like, you know, I was really excited about this, but it's just never gonna happen. So I'll just focus on being an author. That's fine. Like I'll feel satisfied. And so I just kind of pushed the dream away. Um, and life is interesting. I ended up getting pregnant. We moved to Florida to be near my parents, and I ended up having to leave my big law firm job. And you know, with the cost of living as it is, like I had time to think about, well, what's my next move? I had started looking into remote legal jobs and then I remembered well. I had done some soul searching about being an agent, and I really did feel like I hit all those marks, and so I kind of dove back into it. Jenna, she's a literary agent at the storm agency. She has an incredible, um, substack and in her subsection, she has this three part series, literally how to become a literary agent. And I, I just went through this series and followed it. Step by step by step, um, starting with getting an internship. Now, suddenly I had the time, I had the freedom. Um, and yeah, I just, I dove head first into it and never looked back. Once I realized this was the perfect job for me.

Krisserin 22:06

Kelton and I have talked about this. I asked Kelton, I was like, would you ever wanna be an agent? And she was like, absolutely. Fucking not.

Lauren 22:14

A lot of people feel that way,

Krisserin 22:17

Yeah, but I kind of like, I can understand the desire because I do appreciate reading other writers' work and helping them, you know, developmentally with what they're working on. But how do you, how do you feel like what, you have the, you are an off, you're a writer, so you have your writer's hat, and then you have your agent hat, like how do you, you know, put one on and take the other off? Or do you feel like now that you're an agent and you understand the business well, does it. Change how you write. Does it change how you think about what you're working on?

Lauren 22:48

The way I see it these days is aging is like my full-time job. That's my nine to five, and then my writing is like my side hustle. So I wake up early before my babies are awake. I, that's when I pound out my writing. And then once I do the baby thing. my workday, that's when I go into agenting and then maybe at the end of the day I'll flip back into writing. So I, people have asked me like, well, how are you gonna write another novel while you're agenting? I wrote a novel while I was working in big law, so like, I'm just, that's not, that's never gonna be an issue. I'm always gonna be able to write on the side, and I'm not the kind of person who could even sit down and write all day. Like I, I just never foresee myself as like a full-time author because. just, I, I would, I burn out, like I write my, you know, my word count in the morning and then I'm done. And I need the time to kind of like think the aging and authoring actually really. Are such a great match because when I'm doing agenting stuff, I get inspired about my own writing. Like when I'm emailing editors, I'm like, oh, I can't want wait one day to like see my, you know, publisher's marketplace deal. Like I, that gets me pumped when I'm doing editing for a client. I. I know it's reinforcing my own writing then when I work on it the next day. So these two things are definitely linked. I don't think I could be an agent and not be a writer because like, I'm, I'm too thrilled, like to see my authors have success, so then I want that success as an author. So they're definitely, you know, they're definitely linked.

Kelton 24:12

I think there's a part of agenting too that I don't hear a lot of people talk about, which is like the sales side. Like you gotta be a, a pitch woman and you gotta be out there and be like, you're gonna love this. And like that is the part when I think about the job of a literary agent that I shy away from, where I'm like, even if I really, really cherish something, I'm like, I can't sell it. I don't like selling. It's not for me. And so I'm like curious like where that part comes in for you. Like do, is that a part you're passionate about?

Lauren 24:39

I think what happens is I fall in love with a manuscript. I, from the moment it's in my query inbox. I fall in love with it. It makes it hard when maybe an author chooses another agent.'cause then I feel the loss. But once I start. Working on this manuscript with my author, like, I'm all in. I'm so excited and passionate about this, I wanna sell it. And I will say the part that is hard is not necessarily the pitching, the nos. I'm getting nos all day long. Whereas, you know, when you're as a author, you're getting a lot of nos. As an agent, I just feel like I'm getting them tenfold because I'm getting them for so many clients. And it's really. The part that's hard is then having to keep going and just keep pushing. But I'm just, I'm someone who I will knock down every door until I get what I want. Like, that's just a part of me. I mean, even just getting this agent job, like I wanted to be an agent, I was gonna make that happen. Um, and so that's how I feel about these books is like, I'm just gonna keep going. And I even, even if it's not this book, I'm so passionate about you as an author like that. We're just gonna keep writing and we're gonna keep selling. Um, but I definitely, yeah, I had a moment. started this last summer and I had a moment in like the last month where I was, you know, I had not gotten an offer on a client yet. That has changed in the last month. I feel like a lot has changed in the last month, but I was like, woo, I've been doing this. I've been actively on submission for about six months and it's just been nose, and that's, that's really hard. Like you start to wonder like, well, when am I gonna get that? Yes, and I know. Authors feel this too. We're just like, when is this gonna happen for me? Um, things did start to change in the last month and, and that's what's shown me that you really just have to keep going and just keep being persistent. Um, and I, I really think that goes for writing too. Like, you just, you can't stop. You have to keep going.

Krisserin 26:27

You have to be indefinable. Right? I think that, uh, that's what an author needs though. A writer needs from their agent is someone who's like, we're just gonna keep going. It's not gonna stop. Like, that's the energy we need to bring to the table. So I know you're, you're actively querying the Gold Coast. I'm curious. So you see a lot of queries. You get a lot of queries in your inbox. Probably see all the mistakes that writers make when they, they send out a query for the first time. Do you feel like, are you making the mistake? Have you found yourself kind of falling into the same mistakes that other writers have when they were querying?

Lauren 27:05

This is my second time querying. I actually had an agent, um, that I left, um, and I switched genres. So it's been two very different experiences. I will say in both experiences, mistake that I've made is I've queried before the manuscript was actually done. I don't know why I do this. And I, I tell authors, don't query too soon, and here I am doing it. I just get to this point where I'm like, I need an outside deadline. I need someone to light a fire in my as said, Hey, I'll just get in line, like I'm just gonna slot in. I probably won't hear from these agents for months anyways. It's been crazy the last few weeks. I'm now at. 15 full requests. And so I had to go into an editing hole and for like a couple weeks and just knock this manuscript out and like I was basically there. But know, as a perfectionist editor agent, like I needed to do my Kindle read, I needed to do my printout read, like I needed to incorporate some last minute beta of feedback. So I sent those all out last Wednesday and oh my gosh, I don't know how authors do this all the time now, seeing it from an agent. Perspective. I'm like, this is hell. Like, what are, and I keep thinking, oh, over the weekend, like they probably all sent it to their Kindle. They're all spending their whole weekend reading my manuscript. No, I don't even, I mean, there are fools that like, I still haven't gotten to yet, so I don't know why we like, make up these scenarios. Um, haven't heard from anybody yet. But, uh, yeah, I just, I think that's the mistake is I don't know why I didn't give myself like another month. Like why did I make life hell for me for like the last few weeks where I just like wasn't sleeping?

Kelton 28:38

though. Like I also, similarly, I have to have that deadline and you know, after just doing, I only did five queries on my nonfiction proposal and like. There was a part of me that knew it wasn't ready yet. You know, I mean, at the point we talked on this, on the podcast, I hadn't even done the chapter summaries. I just had submitted it to the people who didn't require chapter summaries. So I could keep working

Lauren 29:01

Yes.

Kelton 29:01

I needed that driving momentum to get me to do something. So I hear you a hundred percent. I'm also curious, when you work at a literary agency, do you query your own agency?

Lauren 29:16

I didn't,

Kelton 29:17

I'm separating church and state. I'm

Lauren 29:20

yeah.

Kelton 29:20

outside. Like, do your colleagues know you're querying other people?

Lauren 29:25

so funny. Um, I actually talked a lot with one of my, um, colleagues because she also is an agented author and like has queried a couple times. And so we, we talked about this a lot. Um, it's funny because so many people in my life that aren't in publishing have asked me, well, why don't you just wrap yourself? And I'm like. I, I guess that's a great question, but I just feel like I need someone else's stamp of approval. Like, I just feel like if I was sending out my own manuscript, that just wouldn't be the same mark of approval. You know? Like, I guess, I don't know, is there a rule that I, I can't do that I, I've never really asked, but, um, I just feel like it doesn't have that, like, outside, like external, like validation, like this is a good manuscript, you know.

Krisserin 30:06

So you don't have that partnership with someone? Yeah.

Lauren 30:09

You need the partnership too. A hundred percent. And like I, I don't wanna sell my own book. Like I, I, I want that experience as an author too, where I have someone kind of handling the business side of things and then I can just work on the creative side.

Krisserin 30:23

Yeah, because imagine having to like advocate for and negotiate it. I, having someone else's brain on it, I think would be immensely helpful in that respect. Uh, well, congrats on your 15.

Kelton 30:36

So even if you had like a sought representation within your own agency, you don't wanna

Lauren 30:41

Yeah.

Krisserin 30:42

Yeah.

Kelton 30:42

someone you're full while you're having a teams meeting with them.

Krisserin 30:46

Yeah. You're okay. So did you, um.

Kelton 30:48

it in the background?

Lauren 30:50

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And it's also like, I guess now that I'm starting to get to know other agents too, I just don't wanna like anyone to feel pressure to request my full or feel awkward to reject me. Like I want it to be a genuine, like I, you know, I consider this manuscript not because I know you, you know.

Krisserin 31:08

I was gonna say Kelton and, and Lauren. You guys like Lauren's talking. I'm like, this sounds so much like Kelton, like how Kelton thinks things.

Lauren 31:16

Really

Krisserin 31:16

Yeah, totally. Totally. So congrats on your 15 full requests. That's incredible. What do you think got you those 15 fulls? Like what are the things that your query really did a good job of that our listeners who may be in the trenches or getting ready to go into the trenches could learn from?

Lauren 31:37

I really worked on my query this time. I perfected it. I had another friend read it. I really drilled down'cause I wanted to make it stand out. I think, you know, I started it out with really hooky comp section. Like I made sure my comps were just like on it. I really paid attention to those because I know as an agent, I am looking for comps. And a lot of people struggle with comps. I guess I feel like I've never really struggled with it just because I'm such an avid reader and maybe this is where my agenting side is coming out too. When I'm reading over my, my manuscript, I'm just thinking, oh, this is. This is that book. And I'm constantly kind of like keeping a, a list of like, books that it just reminds me of. One thing I hear a lot from people is them saying, well, there is no cop that exists.

Krisserin 32:23

Yeah. All of our books are unicorns. We all have unique ideas that have never occurred in history before. We're the first, the one and the only.

Lauren 32:32

I know. And I, I hear that all the time. People I have, I had a co, TikTok. About comps, and I've gotten so many comments of people saying like, well, there are no comps. I promise you there is. And if, if there's not one like you, well you shouldn't have one anyways. You should have like three. And if they don't exist, then you probably need to revisit your manuscript because I'm not gonna be able to sell it if there are no comps at all. Like if this has never been on the market before, well like, it's gonna be very hard for me to sell. Because that's what editors are doing. They're looking at the sales of these comps. So my comps, I feel like are strong. And they're pretty recent, like last. Five years. I even had one. I, I read the book like over Thanksgiving. I threw that in there because I was like, oh, this is, this is new people. People want things like this. I have like a pretty strong, like one sentence pitch right after those comps. And then I have my short summary, which I, you know, I tell people the best way to figure out how to write like the summary of your plot for a queer letter is go to a bookstore and just start reading the backs of books, because that's, as an agent, like, that's what the experience is like for me, like when I'm going through my query tracker. The people that are writing these long, long summaries, like that's not really what I'm looking for. I'm looking for someone who I feel like I just. Picked up a book in a bookstore and I'm like, Ooh, I'm dying to read this. And then I, I jump in and request a full, I feel like my bio is strong too. I, I don't necessarily think it's the, the agenting thing because I've talked to other query agents and they said they queried for several months, so like, I don't think it's that, but I do think, you know, I have been agented before. I've written other manuscripts. I take writing classes and I have a publishing podcast like I am in this industry. I am committed. To being in this industry. And that's something I look for too. If someone is like, actively trying to become an author and like, be a part of this world, like that stands out to me versus someone who, this is just kind of like a one-off. I don't know. I, I also wrote a psychological thriller and I feel like. They might be having a moment. I have a, a unique protagonist because she's pregnant. Um, I, I drafted this when I was heavily pregnant, and I think that was definitely on the mind. so I don't know, like, we'll, we'll see when I start, ideally, knock on wood, getting agent offers, like, I'm so curious to hear what it was that like drew them in. Because I do feel like, I mean, I'm getting requests from people who according to query tracker, like never request. So something about it is standing out.

Krisserin 35:02

That's really interesting. You saying that, that your protagonist is heavily pregnant made me think of the conversation we had last week with Courtney Ma and, and trend forecasting and, the like trad wife secret lives Mormon wives ballerina farms is, is heavily, you know, in the zeitgeist right now. So I bet, I bet that it's very timely and interesting for agents to be reading books, with a protagonist like that. That's really interesting. So you mentioned you're not the first. Writer that I've heard that has been agented parted, we with their agent and is now curing again or has their second agent. Would you be willing to tell us kind of like what happened with that first agent? It sounds like you changed genres, maybe they weren't representing that genre, but how did you manage that? Very delicate, you know, breakup. I would, I guess you would call it.

Lauren 35:54

I do think, you know, my first Agented experience happened for a reason, because it was the reason I fell into agenting myself. Like going through that, you know, seeing what it's like to be an agent, finding her, you know, all of that led me down the path of agenting myself. I think what happened is as I learned more about this world versus the first time I queried, when I really knew nothing, I was just kind of throwing things out there. I just realized that the agent I had didn't have all of the qualities that I wanted at an agent, and I. All the things that I was doing as an agent, I was like, I want someone who's like me. So that was, that was big. I really felt like initial passion, for my first manuscript, which was a romcom, that passion on the first call, it kind of dwindled. Like I just felt like here I'm saying I will knock down every door and I will send to hundreds of editors. I think we went out to like eight editors and I gotta the point where I was like. You know, asking her like, when are we going out again? And I just felt like I was becoming this nag. And I just felt like the communication wasn't what I was looking for. So there, there were things that I was seeing other agents doing that I just felt like I wanted more for myself, especially this early on in my career. Um, and then, yes, the changing genres was huge. She was more of in the romance, women's fiction space. And I just, I wanted someone that was going to be this incredible agent in this new psychological thriller genre that I, I'm, I'm loving, like I'm writing now another book in this genre. And I just, I feel like my voice is really being captured in a way that it wasn't, um, in this like other romcom space I was writing in. Um, but it was. Very hard, especially from like an identity perspective. I, you know, going from an agented author who, I mean, when I got my first agent offer, I think I had three on on that romcom. was like sobbing. Like, when I got that email to have the call, I was so excited.'cause I just felt like it was such a dream. I'd been chasing, you know, I wanted to be a writer my whole life. I'm, I'm such a big reader, just felt like it was happening. You know, my family was so excited. We were all celebrating. You know, going out on submission was so exciting. And then like the excitement just started to dwindle as time went on. And then to then break that off. Ugh. Gosh. It really, it was a punch to the gut.'cause now, now I'm just a writer again. You know, I'm, I went from an agented author to a writer with no literary agents. and so to be at like the mountaintop and, and come off it was, it was really hard. It took. Many, many months of like really thinking it over, to finally, yeah. To finally do it. And I just, you know, I, I went over the way to do it so many different times with my husband. I eventually just, I, I kept it like pretty short and sweet and, and just, you know, said I was changing genres. Um, yeah. And then that was it. It it's a breakup. Yeah.

Kelton 38:47

Your friend, that it's like a good person where you're like, it's

Lauren 38:50

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 38:51

anymore. Um,

Lauren 38:53

Exactly.

Kelton 38:53

want like the excuse to be like, well, they cheated. So I just like, there, I had a reason to just like cut off. But with like an agent where it's like the vibe is just off. I can imagine it's really hard to. Advocate for yourself enough to be like, no, I have to do this. I gotta step off that pedestal that I found myself on and like find a different pedestal.

Lauren 39:14

Yeah, exactly. No, it's really hard. Um, I think the other thing that kept me sane was that I was, I started working on this new manuscript last February. Um, well, to, to backtrack, I had started a new rom-com and I just was, oh my gosh. It was like hitting my head against a wall. I was like, I am so bored. This is terrible. Like, I just couldn't do it. And I had had this thriller idea, you know, kicking around. I don't write thriller. And so I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna get it outta my system. I'm just gonna do this for fun. I, like I said, I was so pregnant, I was just like, I'm just gonna do this. And I became obsessed with writing this thriller. And so I think that helped too, is I knew she really didn't rep this genre and so I was probably going to have to do something like this anyways. Um, and. when I got that first full request, I think that was the other reason I started querying too soon too, is just like I was, ah, I was just so ready to get an agent again. When I got that first full request, like pretty immediately it felt like a sign, like, okay, I, I did the right thing. And now I've been getting so many requests that I, I feel so excited and I, I hope that this next, you know, chapter in my writing journey is, is really starting.

Krisserin 40:22

I can't wait for us to be able to celebrate your representation soon. Uh. You know, both Kelton and I have gone through the process of querying and creating a list of agents. Do you have any advice for writers on how to create that list? Like what they should be looking for when they're thinking about what agents to query, and then are there any like red flags or green flags or things that they should consider when they do start hearing from agents eventually.

Lauren 40:53

Yes. Oh, all of the things I've thought about this so much, um, as an agent myself, but also as an author. And I actually said yesterday on my podcast, something kind of controversial that if I were to get an agent offer. And we have the call and I'm not feeling it on that call. This is so important to me that I would just say no and not go ahead and nudge everybody else. Um, because the risk is that no one else says yes. And now you're pretty much stuck with that agent that you didn't vibe with. Um, so I am like thinking about this constantly, like what am I looking for? Um. To start with the query list, I think Publisher's Marketplace is a very underused tool by authors. I think it's something that people think that only agents use, but I, I really wish that I had used Publisher's Marketplace in my first querying experience to look at sales, to see, you know. What are these agents selling? Who are they selling to? Are they selling to Big Five? If that's like where I see myself going, um,'cause there are agencies that really only sell to like smaller publishers, which is fine. Like someone might just want to be published and they don't care where, that's fine. Um, but I would like to see someone who has connections to the big five. Um, and are they selling in my genre? Are they selling debuts? Like you can filter all this on publisher's Marketplace versus what I did my first query experience where I just, if someone opened on Query tracker, I was querying them. Like it didn't really matter Anything else? Um. I, so I think those are the things to do. I also think, you know, write down, write down agencies, but then really dig into the different agents at the agencies. Like, make sure you're querying the person that you actually want to query. Um, and, and don't self reject. I think that's what I've learned this time around. I, one of the agents that I queried a few weeks ago. As at an agency, a very reputable agency. I mean, selling books that I would just like dream to be up next to, and. I've never seen this done at another agency, but they actually let you query multiple agents at once. So I, you know, I chose the, the newer agent'cause I was, you know, already self rejecting. I was like, you know, she's new, she'll, she'll open my email. I, I won't query like the head of this agency who, I mean rep some of my favorite authors. I just won't'cause it just, she'll never read the email. And I saw that you can query multiple agents and I was like, oh, okay. Well, I mean then I have nothing to lose. Like, she's not gonna read the email. I can query second two agents. I'll just do it. responded, the, the big time agent who never requests, requested my manuscript, and my immediate thought was like, oh my gosh, there I was, I was self rejecting. And so I've now done this a couple more times where instead of going with my, you know, not to say that like the new agent, I'm a new agent and I feel like I'm, I'm doing great. But like as an author, you know, if you're choosing who you really want to query. Or let me actually, lemme backtrack. If you're not choosing who you really want to query because you feel like you should just go for the newer agent, for the person you really want to query, like just this is your chance. And actually, Courtney mom, I'm reading her, um, before and after the book deal right now. It's so funny. It came this weekend and then I saw that you guys had her on the podcast on Monday. I was like, wow, this is a sign. She talks about that where she's just like, just query the person you wanna query because. You don't wanna get an offer from this other person and then wish, like, oh, I wish I'd queried that other person. And so on to now query like some of the, the bigger people that I was nervous about querying and guess what they requested. And so I'm, I'm, I'm no longer self rejecting. I'm really. Considering my options. Um, whereas in the past, I think I just was like, oh, I'll just go with the person who might open my email because they're newer. Um, go with, go with an agent, you want a query. Um, and then when it comes down to deciding, oof, gosh, I will say after having gone through it. No agent is better than a bad agent. Truly, take your time. Um, really consider all of the factors. You know, there are lists floating around online of like the questions you need to ask. Um, think the vibe that you feel on that call, like your gut is really important. Um, are you comfortable talking to this person? Uh, one of that I try. To help like, set me apart since I don't really have any sales yet, although soon I will. Um, it's that I just want people to be comfortable with me. Like I want them to feel like they can email me anytime because I didn't feel that with my previous agent. I was very scared to email my agent, and I have so many other friends in this world who are very scared to email their agent and they have like drafts floating for months before they, before they finally hit send. Like, I, I don't want that. I want people to always feel comfortable with me. So. And my next agent, like I just want comfort. Like I wanna feel like I can talk to you, you know this. Ideally is a career long relationship, and I wanna be able to talk to you about my career. I mean, you know, we're, this is a partnership. Um, I think, you know, where you can look at sales. I think that is important. Um, I, in the past, like wasn't looking at recent sales and, and I think that, um, that knocked me to like really, really look at the sales, um, ask to speak to their clients. clients, but also try to find clients who've left. Like if you've noticed that there's a client that's gone somewhere new, just find out why. Like if, if that person will talk to you, um, and just. I think if you just can see yourself working with this person, I think that's the most important thing. Like this is your chance on this call to ask all those questions and don't be shy. There's, there's a power shift. Once the agent offers, you're now in the driver's seat and ask all the questions you, that you wanna ask. I, I. Felt very nervous my first time around to ask anything'cause I was afraid they were gonna take it back. And they're not like they're, they want you, they want your manuscript. Um, they're not gonna take it back. Um, make sure they give you the two or three weeks industry standard. I was pressured into less time. Do not be pressured into less time. Like publishing is very slow. They can wait. Um, yeah, I mean there are so many things to consider, but I think those are the, the things that really, um, are top of mind for me.

Kelton 47:07

I wanna hear about your inbox right now. Like what jazzes you in a query letter? I was telling Cran in the intro, I got another rejection with some feedback this morning. And one thing they said, they were like, we really love your platform. Um, and I was like, yeah. I know that part's helpful, but like

Lauren 47:25

Yeah.

Kelton 47:27

are reading a query, are you like jazzed to see writing classes? Are you psyched about platforms or does it matter to you? What's the genre that you're like, I'm dying to represent this? Or are you kind of agnostic in that?

Lauren 47:40

Definitely am looking for things that hook me. Like I just, I know my taste. People say, you know, that my querying rejections are fast. Um, I just know my taste so unbelievably well. Um, I really wanna represent more thriller. I have a literary thriller that I'm obsessed with. I'm, I'm trying to sell them now and I want'em to get a book deal so bad. And I just want, I definitely want more thriller on my list'cause that just always lights me up. I wanna twist that. I did not see coming, like, just really shock me. Um, I love romance. Like I will always, I think, represent romance, but I am not someone who's doing like a small town, just two people fall in love. Like I need something else. I need, it needs to make me either like, laugh out loud or, um, have like a speculative twist. Like I have this incredible manuscript we're subbing right now that has a, it's grounded with a speculative twist. Um. It just needs to be like a little different. Um, I, you know, platform is great. Like, especially when it comes to, I, I have a few cookbook authors on my list and I'm, I'm very passionate about the food industry. Um, but I've realized now after submitting these manuscripts, um, or these proposals rather, that platform is king, uh, like that's just. they wanna see platform. Um, but yeah, writing classes, like anything that just can set you apart that you're, you're really working on this, that always stands out to me. Mentorship programs. Um, I have a few people that did the smooch pit mentorship program for romance, and that stands out for me because I know, you know, they have gone through multiple rounds of editing. Um. I have, you know, a very editorial eye and I will always do at least a round or two of editing. But it's nice to know that it's like already gone, gone through that. Um, so I think, yeah, those are like the main things I'm looking for.

Krisserin 49:30

I saw on your, manuscript wishlist, romance plus

Lauren 49:34

Yeah,

Krisserin 49:34

the same. Like there's gotta be stakes. Like if we're just watching two people fall. Love. It's a little bit of a snooze fest unless there's just like a lot of sex in the book, and then it's like, oh, that's what this book is for. You know? I see what you're doing here.

Lauren 49:47

No, totally. I get very bored very easily. Like I just, I need pacing. I need, you know, commercial hooky. I, I mentioned I do have the literary thriller, but that's just because their writing is so. Unbelievable. And they still had twists like just because something's literary or you know, maybe like smaller or quieter. Like in my book, it still needs pacing. Like there are books that I have picked up that I have thought, oh, this is not for me because it's like too literary or what have you, but I ended. Falling in love with those books because they did keep me, you know, turning the page. Like there is this like, underlying propulsion. And so I think that's the main thing that I'm looking for is like, do I wanna keep turning the page? And if I don't, um, I, I, one of my agent mentors told me that if she puts down her Kindle after starting manuscript and she doesn't wanna pick it back up the next morning, then it's just a no for her. And so I've, I've started doing that where, when I first started this job, I felt like I had to finish every full I requested. Now I feel like if I, if I don't keep reading it, like if I just don't care, I, I'm, it's, it's gonna be a no for me. And, but that doesn't mean it's a no for every agent. Like, it just might not be my taste. And I think that's important for authors to hear is. A no is not a no from everyone. It just, it wasn't a match. I mean, we're doing this for free, so we have to love something. have to, you know, work on this and, and pour in edits. And I, like I said, like there are edit agents that don't do edits. I do a lot of editing, like, that's just, I'm editorial. I'm always gonna want to work on that with you. And if I don't care about this manuscript, that's really hard for me to do for free. You know, like I, I really have to love something. Um, and, but just because I don't love it. It doesn't mean another agent won't.

Krisserin 51:31

Right. What's the last book that you read that def, that fits that description, that's not someone who's cured you? Like a published book that you read that was so propulsive and surprising and exciting.

Lauren 51:43

My gosh, the one that I automatically think of, I think just because I read it on this, is actually the one I mentioned earlier that I added as a comp. I read it on Black Friday and I just like ignored my family was, um, best offer wins. you read that?

Krisserin 51:56

No, I.

Lauren 51:57

Oh, it is, it is so good. Um, it is, yeah. It's a psychological thriller, um, about the housing market. Um, and it is just, you know, the lengths that this woman will go to to get her dream home, obviously, you know, it's so much more than that. Um, but I just, she was so crazy. I just could not stop. I I had to this book. Um, so I think that was the last one that I truly was just like, I, I have to keep going.

Krisserin 52:25

What are the comps that you wanna see? Like what are the, besides that book that if they came into your inbox, you'd be like, I have to read this. I want the full manuscript right away.

Lauren 52:34

I think anyone that ever comes to, um, you know, just some of my favorite authors like Liz Moore, I always say, um, anything. The comps to God of the woods. I'm probably gonna wanna see more. Um, my literary thriller that I, I signed the comp to God of the woods just because it's one of my favorite books. Um, Stacey Willingham is another author I love. Ashley Winstead. Um, these are, those are more in like the, the thriller category, um, for romance. I mean, lately, I think my favorite romance that I've read in the last few months that if you comp to this, I'm gonna wanna see more is, um. One and only by Maureen Goo. And, and this was grounded with a speculative twist about, um, soulmates and, um, past lives. And it was just, it was so interesting and hilarious and I, I loved it. Um, I can tell in the query letter, like I, I, I, if I like the query letter, of course I'll go to the pages, but I can usually tell from the query letter, um, if I'm gonna like something. I just, I'm very in tune with my taste.

Krisserin 53:34

I feel like Speculative romance is a genre that's underrepresented, but there are so many good books in that genre and they're way more, I feel like, personally for me, they're way more fun to read than a like a straight romance, which I get bored with unless it's a historical romance, which as.

Lauren 53:48

Yes, yes. No, I agree. Like Rebecca Surl, like this world, this one slight difference, but it, it's accepted. Like no one's asking questions about why this thing is, it just is.

Krisserin 54:04

yeah. Let's fall, like gimme a ghost to fall in love with, you know,

Lauren 54:08

exactly.

Krisserin 54:10

gimme some real yearning.

Lauren 54:13

Yes, absolutely. I think too, like I loved travel, um, in my book, so like a book that I love last fall, you know, it's a pretty, it's funny as it is a pretty just basic romance, but I think the setting was so gorgeous. Um, it's different this time by Josh Richard, like it was in the West Village of New York in the fall, and I just was so mentally there that I, I loved, um, that book. Um. Everett's book that was a Reese's Book Club pick last year is you travel to London and Lisbon and I just, as I mentioned, was very pregnant last year. And so mentally I'm like traveling all over the world with these authors. Um, so those usually get me too.

Krisserin 54:50

Kelton always likes to ask what your top three books that I.

Kelton 54:56

could be just like books that stay with you over time. Like what are the books that linger with you?

Lauren 55:02

Anything by Emily Henry I've read multiple times. That's like a, just a comfort for me. Emily Henry and, um, Carly Fortune every summer after, like, those, those are just. are comfort reads. And I have reread Ashley Winston's books a lot. In my dreams, I Hold a Knife, is one of my favorites. I'm actually comping to that one too. That just, yeah, that, that'll just always be, a standard for me. I mean. So funny'cause my parents lived down the street and so I've been looking at my, my childhood bookshelf a lot. I read so much Sarah Deon like that. She was like it for me. I, and you know, it's funny'cause that's like ya romance. Um, and so I think that was one of my. Like intros into the genre, like, oh, you don't just have to read, you know, these academic books. Um, I think, you know, I was definitely reading like Hunger Games and stuff like that, but I think when I started to realize that there were books beyond like what we were reading in school. And you could, you know, fall in love and that's like an acceptable book to read. It's just so interesting. I love, I love looking back at my childhood bookshelf and just seeing, oh, that, okay, so that was it. That was it for me at the time.

Krisserin 56:08

Are you open for querying right now? Are you trying to, to build your list? Tell us, tell us what, how people can query you, what you're looking for, what your requirements are. Let let our listeners know.

Lauren 56:22

Yeah, I am on Query Tracker. I'm open. I intend to pretty much always be open unless like I close for a few days or something. The agent that I interned for told me he was always open, because he was so afraid of missing out on his dream book. And that's happened to me like I've closed a couple times just to kind of get my bearings and. The whole time I was like, oh my gosh, there could be something sliding into my inbox right now that I'm missing and, you know, and then they're gonna get agent. I think too,'cause knowing that a lot of the people on my list, I pretty much requested them right away, read their book within like a weekend and then was offering, what am I looking for? I, I read extremely widely. I know, I feel like I've only been talking about romance and thrillers, but. read it all. I wanna rep it all. So if you, you know, if you're proud of your book and you're ready to query, send it to me. I'm on Query Tracker. Like I mentioned, I do have a manuscript wishlist on my website, but like I said, you know, I'm really, uh, open to anything. I think I'm asking for the first five pages, just'cause I feel like I, I get a sense after that. That's why, you know, those first pages should really be strong and polished. I think as an agent we get a sense of the writing and of the voice just from that amount. Um, so I would, I, you know, I would love to see your manuscripts, send them my way. And I also represent nonfiction, really focused on cookbooks right now. I have a couple amazing chefs on my list. But I, you know, if you have a memoir, if you have anything else in the nonfiction space, parenting, I've mentioned I'm a mom, like, you know, send it my way.

Krisserin 57:52

Amazing. And where can people find you besides Query Tracker and, all of the obvious places? What are your socials? Where can they find you?

Lauren 58:01

I'm pretty much at Lauren, JP Conn, everywhere. I also am the co-host of the Pros. Pros. We have interviewed some of these authors that I've mentioned. So definitely check out those episodes. It has been such an honor to be here. It's so crazy hearing your voices because I've listened to your voices and like, so seeing your faces, it's so cool. And I'm so glad I like, I think I like slid into a DM and then you shouted me out on the show and I was just like, this is amazing. This is incredible that we're here.

Krisserin 58:27

Yes, this is what, building a community is all about. So

Kelton 58:31

Speaking of community. I do have one more question.

Lauren 58:34

Oh yes, please.

Kelton 58:36

all every episode questions.

Krisserin 58:38

ooh.

Lauren 58:39

do it.

Kelton 58:40

it takes to be a good LAR literary citizen?

Lauren 58:44

Oh, I love that so much.

Kelton 58:46

I

Lauren 58:46

I think building each other up as you can as a writer. I think a great example is yesterday I have a friend who, she had a huge deal announced in the last few months. We actually became friends because she queried me. That's not always how, how it happens. But we just, you know, after she went with someone else. I mean, she had 14 offers, so it's fine. We started talking and she called me yesterday to talk about her new title and we were like throwing around title ideas together and I was like, this is so cool that I get to, you know, be a part of this with you. And, and I truly, you know, was part of me that was wondering like, should I feel jealous? Like she's already at the stage, but. The other part of me was like, you know what? I'm gonna be here. I, I know in my gut I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna call her and we're gonna talk through my agent offers, and then one day we're gonna talk through my title options. And I feel like I am building that community now just by being there for my friends and, you know, posting about their books and, helping them as they go through these different decisions. I. Always wanted to be in the publishing world. Like, this is my dream. And even though I don't have a book deal yet, like I'm in it, like this is, you know, I'm talking about books all day long. And so, you know, it's a dream. It really is a dream come true. And so just by surrounding myself with people that are going after this dream also, um, I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm being a literary citizen and you know. Also creating things that might help someone. Like, I feel like with our podcast, our mission is just to help other querying authors, to help people that are going through it, to, you know, extract as much advice as we can from guests. And so if you feel like you have something to say, you know, put it out there. Try to help other people, pay it forward and yeah, just don't leave one star. Good Reads, reviews.

Krisserin 1:00:33

I am glad you said that. Not the last part, but the extract as much information as possible.'cause I feel like I just drilled you for an hour.

Lauren 1:00:40

Oh, I love it though. Please just like, throw questions at me. I, I, this is really so meaningful to me. Like I want to help people'cause it is such an opaque industry. I mean, I mentioned to you, I had no idea what I was doing when I was queering the first time. I think that was two and a half, three years ago. I had no idea. And I wish that like someone was sharing this knowledge. So yeah, I extract as much as you can.

Krisserin 1:01:05

Well, thank you so much for being such a great literary citizen and friend of the pod and for sliding into our dms. We need more sliding into dms for non gross reasons. If men can do it, women can do it to help. other when they're on their publishing journeys. So, Lauren, it was such a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thanks so much for coming on, and I'm so glad now we can be friends

Lauren 1:01:29

Yes, we are

Krisserin 1:01:30

in real life. Friends. Yeah. Thank you.

Lauren 1:01:33

thank you.

Krisserin 1:01:37

it's always so nice to chat with someone who listens to the podcast.

Kelton 1:01:42

yeah, it is. As someone who's like on the, on the wavelength,

Krisserin 1:01:46

Yeah, who understands not only what we're going through, but it's, you know, she's also a podcaster herself, so she gets it. It was great. Lauren's so great.

Kelton 1:01:55

And like a deep embedded literary citizen, which

Krisserin 1:01:58

Yeah.

Kelton 1:01:58

we all aspire to be.

Krisserin 1:02:00

We all aspire to be. That's right. Alright, well what's up for, what's up for the next week, man? What are we doing? What homework do we have?

Kelton 1:02:12

I feel like the, the only logical homework for me is to start writing out scenes. It's like I have a whole plot structure now. why would I not start writing scenes? I have it blocked into my calendar. I have all these times framed out. So like I don't see why that wouldn't just be like, write two scenes. I'm not gonna give a word count to myself. I've learned that as not my modus operandi currently. But I do think, two scenes is achievable and fun. It sounds fun.

Krisserin 1:02:47

Sound fun. I'm hoping I'll write at least like three times next week, like three, three days. That's my goal. Yeah, that's what I did this last week was three days. And again, it was just completely opportunistic. I actually put time on my calendar because I remembered that I said I was going to do that Inspired by you putting time on your calendar and it didn't work. I didn't even, I didn't even see it. Didn't even remember to do it. I know. One of the times I wrote in the morning after my kids went to school. One of the times I wrote in the evening after I fed them dinner. And then once was just like a short little, like 300 words that I like squeaked out in the middle of the day. So it was just, it's super sporadic at this point. But yeah, three times, that's my goal.

Kelton 1:03:38

I think that's, that's a great call three times for Chris. I'm gonna write down our goals.

Krisserin 1:03:43

We didn't write them down last week, but the, the fact that we sent each other our homework was the only reason why I remembered what they were.

Kelton 1:03:50

Okay, Krisserin write three times Kelton. Write two scenes.

Krisserin 1:03:54

I think that's highly achievable.

Kelton 1:03:56

I think that's achievable. I did make one in advance of this coming week, which is I made plans with four different people. I,

Krisserin 1:04:06

That's good. I mean, I feel like this is the season we're supposed to like get out now, right? It's not, well, I guess for you it's still kinda winter, but spring,

Kelton 1:04:14

yeah.

Krisserin 1:04:15

out and be social. See people go to book signings.

Kelton 1:04:18

know I'm like already overwhelmed by how many plans I have. I'm like, oh no. I've over committed

Krisserin 1:04:23

Well, speaking of Overcommitting, I have s SP's birthday party on Saturday, and then it's spring break next week, and I've already promised to take them to the beach. And I kind of like made soft plans to go to Universal Studios and a play date and like Yeah. Um, and work while working and trying to get some movement in, uh, during that time. So it'll be a, it'll be an interesting week to put it lightly. We'll see how everything goes. I think the plan is after we record the podcast on Thursdays, I'll scoop'em up and take'em somewhere, but. It's been so warm. Let's go to the beach. Except for I, when I was driving, where was I? You know, when you're driving on the 1 0 1 through Calabasas, you can kind of see over the Santa Monica mountains. There was like a very like heavy cloud on top of the, so I'm sure it's cold at the beach right now. Yeah.

Kelton 1:05:20

I remember it well.

Krisserin 1:05:22

Remember Well. Oh man. Well, any besides those four. Outings. Any other things that you feel like might be impediments to you achieving your goals?

Kelton 1:05:34

I mean, night weaning, that's where we're starting with this process. We're night weaning. And that has been going quite poorly. I'll have, you

Krisserin 1:05:41

I thought you said you were gonna do the nighttime last.

Kelton 1:05:44

yeah, that's what we thought. Um, and then. And then we changed our minds. And I have to tell you, like, I think I'm gonna change my mind a lot in this process. uh, it's a lot of throwing spaghetti at the wall. Um, and the spaghetti is my boobs. Uh, and it's, uh, it's hard and I don't like it.

Krisserin 1:06:06

Damn. Damn well. I wish you all the best of luck on that journey.

Kelton 1:06:11

Thank

Krisserin 1:06:12

I, I just wonder what you, what you said last time is, is it gonna be, uh, it would just create more problems than

Kelton 1:06:20

I, yeah, so far that's, that's, that's all. That's, that's all. It's done. I'm so tired.

Krisserin 1:06:26

Oh, man. Well, if anyone has any really great tips for weaning,

Kelton 1:06:32

nope.

Krisserin 1:06:32

do not send them to Kelton. She does not want them.

Kelton 1:06:36

Don't talk to me about it. Don't bring it up. Don't say what worked for you. I don't wanna know.

Krisserin 1:06:41

She doesn't wanna know.

Kelton 1:06:43

I

Krisserin 1:06:43

You can fuck right off with that advice.

Kelton 1:06:46

Listen, you can hold it in your heart and think of me, and that's all I need.

Krisserin 1:06:51

Well. If you do wanna say hi. Either way, we've gotten so many great inbounds in our inbox. We've had so many people reach out and say like, Hey, my friend is a, self-published author. I think she would be great for your podcast. Hey, have you heard of this contest? You should submit your speculative fiction novel. We are getting all of these incredible inbounds, so please keep them coming'cause they keep us. Going to be honest, because showing up each week is, it's a lot of, the podcast is a lot of work. We get a lot out of it, but it is a lot of work. So hearing that people are actually getting something out of it helps a lot.

Kelton 1:07:25

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, let us know if you're ever like, you need a pen pals Slack group for all the writers in the pits of hell who can just like complain to each other. and we could, we could curate that. We can make that happen.

Krisserin 1:07:39

I'm on Slack all day every day, actually. Kelton and I usually communicate through slack and text. We text each other too. We text each other too.

Kelton 1:07:49

yeah, we have separate, con, we have separate conversations for text versus

Krisserin 1:07:54

That's true. I think slack's more business and and texting's more. What, what, how did Courtney mom describe it? Gossipy and lively.

Kelton 1:08:05

yeah. Gossip and energetic,

Krisserin 1:08:07

That's right. That's right. That's the perfect description.

Kelton 1:08:09

in my like dream description of my podcast,

Krisserin 1:08:13

Love it. Well, to all of our gossipy and energetic listeners, if you wanna get in contact with us, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at official pen pals pod@gmail.com. You can follow us, at Pen pals pod on all of the platforms. Substack Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. You can follow Kelton at Kelton kin on Instagram, or Kelton writes. You can follow her at at kelton. Write on TikTok. SH logs.substack.com for her writing, and then you can hear all about her classes and offerings@keltonwright.com. You follow me at Krisserin on TikTok, and yeah, those are all the places.

Kelton 1:08:52

Happy writing friends.

Krisserin 1:08:53

Yes. Until next week, happy writing.