The Compulsive Liar at Your Desk: A Conversation About AI and Reading

Krisserin and Kelton are running on fumes—and they're honest about it. Both hosts arrive at this week's accountability check-in feeling ragged: Krisserin is limping toward summer with a fried brain and a work trip on the horizon; Kelton is two years postpartum, pausing her newsletter for the month, and trying to remember what living feels like. Their respective goal updates are modest and real: Krisserin squeezed in two revision sessions (one of them in the car), while Kelton wrote 2,500 words—just not on her novel.
 
Krisserin and Kelton spend most of the episode answering listener mail. Kelly Barrett's six questions become the backbone of a wide-ranging conversation about AI (how they use it at work, why neither uses it for their own writing, and what happens when you catch your home assistant lying), reading life (when, how, how much, and what to do when a book isn't working), and self-publishing as a real option rather than a last resort.
 
Plus: dream therapy intake forms, artist dates in rural Colorado, thrift store prices that are absolutely not okay, and goals for a week when one spouse is heading into the mountains.
 
Books mentioned:
Starling House by Alix E. Harrow
The Night Circus by Erin Morgenstern
Coyote America by Dan Flores
The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron
Sevenwaters Series by Juliet Marillier
 
Big thank you to Kelly Barrett for her very thoughtful listener letter. She writes the newsletter Practice Not Perfect at kellybarrett.substack.com. 

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Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

Kelton 0:00

Hi, Chris. How you doing?

Krisserin 0:02

Okay. How are you doing?

Kelton 0:04

I'm okay.

Krisserin 0:05

Hmm. We're okay.

Speaker 0:08

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections

Speaker 2 0:16

and hopefully eventual success

Speaker 0:18

from California to

Speaker 2 0:19

Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton 0:22

Okay. I was actually just looking off the screen because I was thinking about our goals last week. I know I didn't accomplish my 1500 words on the novel, but I did write words elsewhere. I wrote 2,500 words on a therapy intake form.

Krisserin 0:43

Oh Lord.

Kelton 0:44

I tell you about this. So I, I've been kind of padding around trying to find, uh, a replacement for my therapist. By the end of my time with Donna, I wasn't really going for like, mental health treatment. I was just going because I needed an outside force to every once in a while be like, get it together. Get it together, babe. Because you're too gentle with me. So I needed someone cruel. So on my

Krisserin 1:11

was gentle or no? You, I'm too gentle with

Kelton 1:13

You're too gentle. You're too gentle. Yeah.

Krisserin 1:16

too

Kelton 1:16

No gen, no. Donna was never gentle. Donna was always like, write the fucking book counting. I'm looking for a replacement in that. And I found a woman. Who specializes in dream therapy. And because I have such, intense and cinematic dreams, I was like, oh, I think that would actually be really fun because I use my dreams as inspiration for my writing a lot. And it would be fun to like dive into them with like a low stakes, uh, relationship. But her intake form, and she talked to me about it in advance. She was just like, look, you've had therapy for a long time. You obviously like dealt with a lot of things. If you wanna tell me your whole life story in this intake form, you can. She's like, I love that. I love diving in with a client and like having some context. And I was like, you are literally saying this to an essay writer. Like, get ready girl. Get ready.

Krisserin 2:17

up.

Kelton 2:18

Buckle up because I'm about to unload and I was just checking the word count. Yeah. It's over 2,500 words. And I was like, wow, she's gonna, she's gonna get what she asked for. And so that is where a lot of my writing went through the week. I read a couple books. I did do a little spell craft as we had discussed. I made the critical decision to pause the newsletter for May. So

Krisserin 2:43

that. I was really happy that you are doing that. When I

Kelton 2:46

yeah.

Krisserin 2:47

in chamber logs.

Kelton 2:49

Yeah. So I, I just, I feel like I need to kind of tap back into the artist's way, and just take myself on some dates. Life has just felt very rote and routine and I know when it gets like that, I need to kinda separate from what I'm doing and, and live a little. So that is the plan. That's my goal for May. But I want to know, did you write three times and work on Maryam?

Krisserin 3:16

So I wrote twice, and I don't know if it is, I, I didn't really write twice. I revised twice. So I did look in my grad school. What's it called? The residency that we have, I have to have 5,000 words ready by June 22nd. I have a lot of time, but it is something to work toward and so I've been focusing on that and going in my story was like 9,500 words or something crazy like that. I have lot to cut. I don't know if ultimately, I'll be able to get the whole story into 5,000

Kelton 3:57

Right.

Krisserin 3:58

might be a tall order to cram it in. But I have cut a lot. It's actually been very freeing when I start looking at it from the lens of is this necessary for the story? Is this necessary for the reader to know? And while there are things in there that I really love and parts of the story that I really enjoy, I'm just like, no, I can cut that. I can go, that can go, that can go. So I've been doing that and literally both were in one day and one of them was in the car while I was waiting for, a class to start, so

Kelton 4:30

Counts.

Krisserin 4:31

it in. Yeah. I, did it because I, I knew that I had this goal that I needed to accomplish, but it was, this was a really tough week.

Kelton 4:39

I mean, I

Krisserin 4:41

week.

Kelton 4:41

went to the library to work on the novel. I had time, and I went to my favorite cozy chair and opened up my laptop and fell asleep.

Krisserin 4:50

Oh, okay.

Kelton 4:51

and so I was like, okay. Loud and clear. Loud and clear. I also, I did read, Alexy Hero's Starling House. So another gothic, house novel.

Krisserin 5:03

mm-hmm.

Kelton 5:05

And I liked it. I, I mean, I love reading Alexie Harrell books. They're fun. They're, they're, they're well put together. And I think her characters, really come to life. I didn't like, love these characters. I was actually talking to Kate Flanders about this. I thought that they were mis aged. The characters in the book are, they're supposed to be, the two main characters are supposed to be 26 and 28. And for me, I think the narrative of this novel would have landed better if they were 22 and 24.

Krisserin 5:40

That's so funny. 'cause that's how I remember her being younger because remind me in the story, she's living in a motel.

Kelton 5:47

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 5:48

is kind of a, a bounce around

Kelton 5:51

Her mom's dead. Yeah.

Krisserin 5:53

Oh yeah. That's right. But she was kind of like a,

Kelton 5:55

Yeah. She was a

Krisserin 5:57

mom.

Kelton 5:58

wild mom.

Krisserin 5:59

Yeah,

Kelton 6:00

yeah. And, the main character is taking care of her little brother.

Krisserin 6:04

that's

Kelton 6:04

I,

Krisserin 6:05

That's right.

Kelton 6:06

yeah, it just, uh, you know, and that's like a personal preference of like what I'm expecting from a character. And it's one of those things when you're reading a book, you know, like sometimes when you're reading a romance book and they're like, he had Tawny Auburn hair and your brain is like, Nope, he had dark brown hair.

Krisserin 6:22

That's right.

Kelton 6:23

that's sort of what I did with these characters. I was like, she is not 26, she is 22.

Krisserin 6:29

Yeah. I don't remember her being that old because 26 is, I mean, that's an adult that is

Kelton 6:34

Yeah, it's like a, you're at a critical advancing age,

Krisserin 6:39

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 6:39

And it just having an argument can be made for her being 26. Absolutely. But, it just felt right having her be younger. But it, you know, that's one of the things as a reader, I was just able to be like, no. But it really did, make me think about, obviously I am so caught up in my own novel about time and age, that's like such a huge component of what I'm writing. And so just thinking about that, even just thinking about it for a week was enough for me to be like, alright, kind of worked on the book. But, you know, it was a really satisfying read and really fast, after my abandonment of Ministry of Time.

Krisserin 7:16

Let me ask you, did the age, I mean especially with, I would say gothic novels or horror novels or any of these novels where the protagonist has to make decisions. That are almost life and death that affect their livelihood. They have to take chances and take risks. And there is a naivete of a 22-year-old that maybe a 26-year-old doesn't have.

Kelton 7:43

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 7:44

might be like,

Kelton 7:45

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 7:45

I go down that dark tunnel to this unknown world? Maybe not, you know? Is that what bothered you? It just felt like she was too old to make some of the choices that she made in the story.

Kelton 7:57

Yeah. And it's funny because the choices that she made about, the life and death horror choices were not where the age stood out. It was the choices about her life. And maybe that's just very reflective of like who she was raised by. But uh, yeah, she just, she seemed in many ways childish. But as I'm like saying it out loud, I'm like, she had like a horrible amount of trauma, and like no real support system. And so I can see how a person can get to 26 and, and still be kind of acting like a child in a lot of ways.

Krisserin 8:34

Sound like that was how you felt while you read it.

Kelton 8:39

I it was,

Krisserin 8:40

it after the fact.

Kelton 8:42

yeah. Yeah. But I, I, you know, maybe that, that's important to do, you know, but I, as I'm thinking about it, I'm like, well, I had like a shit load of trauma before 26 and I was not doing this stuff.

Krisserin 8:53

same

Kelton 8:54

yeah. Uh.

Krisserin 8:56

trauma makes you, I think more, wary. I think trauma, speaking from personal experience, it makes you more cautious because you kind of know, you know what the boogeyman looks like and how to watch out for them.

Kelton 9:11

I also read, I finally finished The Night Circus by Erin Morgan Stern. Another book that kind of plays with age. And I, it's funny, Erin Morganstein, that book is great. Ev I think it's, definitely worth a read.

Krisserin 9:26

Yeah.

Kelton 9:26

so fun. I, there's so many dates in this book that just go back and forth and back and forth, and I just didn't read any of 'em. I was like, I don't need to know this. This is too much detail. I, if you want me to go back and forth in time that much, I need a table to go back and look at like where things happened chronologically. I'm like 18 87, 19 0 2, 19 0 1, 18 84, 18 86, 19 0 2 again, and I'm just like, I don't know, babe, you, I'm just along for the ride. I'll figure out that it's a flashback,

Krisserin 10:00

That's, that's really interesting. I wonder, like you and I are probably the same type of reader where I don't follow the rules. I read the book the way that I wanna read the book.

Kelton 10:08

Oh, absolutely, because also in night circus, there's many little interludes that are just a page about the experience of the circus. And after a few of those, I just started skipping 'em. I was like, I, I don't care. I don't need to know this. It's interesting,

Krisserin 10:24

the story,

Kelton 10:25

those two books, had, they're both there, they're both love stories essentially,

Krisserin 10:30

mm-hmm,

Kelton 10:31

and it's about do they get out of the situation they're in, they both end as a romance, but Starling House is like, they escape and the night circus is, they live in their nightmare forever. Joyfully, you know, joyfully. But it is a, it is interesting as a reader, it's like, is all you care about them being together

Krisserin 10:57

Yeah.

Kelton 10:57

you care about, for me, it was a little like, I got to the end of the night at Circus and I was like, I see why. That's the way it ended. But I'm not like clapping.

Krisserin 11:11

Yeah.

Kelton 11:13

but, uh, I don't know. Every book I read now I'm just like, what am I doing with my book? So.

Krisserin 11:19

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I have, I feel so disconnected from writing right now. My brain is so fried. I wonder, Kelton as we are, I mean, tomorrow will be May,

Kelton 11:31

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 11:32

out, it will be May 4th, and we've got like another month and then it's summer

Kelton 11:38

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 11:39

the kids won't be in school and we'll be off to working on our first drafts. But I am like limping.

Kelton 11:47

Mm-hmm. I mean, girl.

Krisserin 11:50

line. I am burnt the fuck out. I am so burned out and work is so stressful and I'm just, and I've got all of these other things happening on the side, and I'm like, oh, well man,

Kelton 12:03

Yeah, I, I'm right there with you. I feel ragged.

Krisserin 12:08

Ragged

Kelton 12:09

ragged, just mentally, physically, I'm wearing so much makeup. And like similar to you having, your husband leave. Mine's also leaving. He's going on a backpacking trip.

Krisserin 12:22

Bye Ben.

Kelton 12:23

yeah. Uh, you know, I'm like, have fun. And then I'm just like, eyes on the prize. Like, look toward August. Look toward August. You get to go away for three days in August.

Krisserin 12:34

you're gonna go away in August?

Kelton 12:36

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 12:36

gonna be gone for most of May, and so I'm similarly like, Hmm, maybe this work trip that I'm going on where I'm gonna have effectively like two weeks alone. Am I gonna, will that be restorative? Is that gonna, though I'm traveling and I'm gonna be in all these crazy places, is that gonna be an opportunity for me to, you know, rest and maybe get some writing done? Probably not, but I could be optimistic about it. Right?

Kelton 13:02

I feel like I am. If I, if that was me, I would be thinking about getting a lot of reading done.

Krisserin 13:09

Hmm.

Kelton 13:09

travel is such a great opportunity to read

Krisserin 13:12

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 13:13

you're like stuck in weird hotel rooms with bad TVs and you're like on airplanes and you're on buses and whatever methods of transportation you're on. And,

Krisserin 13:22

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 13:23

but I don't know, for me it would be restorative because I wouldn't have a tiny human in constant need of me.

Krisserin 13:31

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 13:31

Two years postpartum, man. I'm like, really? I know that this is the point when like things usually start to shift. I'm like looking forward to my hormonal shift and all that stuff once I fully wean him. But woo.

Krisserin 13:45

Yeah. The more the, like, the more, autonomous they become, the easier it gets. But then, you know, as you know, when they start running around, you're like, Ooh, don't die.

Kelton 13:57

Yeah.

Krisserin 13:58

Don't do that.

Kelton 14:00

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 14:01

choices. Yeah. I mean. Part of my trip, I'm gonna be at a conference. And so that's gonna be draining. 'cause you know, when you've like, talked to like a million people, literally part of the package that I signed up for this conference is it's free and I got a travel stipend, but I have to talk to 33 0 30 vendors.

Kelton 14:21

Well, my eyebrows are up to my hairline.

Krisserin 14:24

Yeah. It'll be great.

Kelton 14:26

uh.

Krisserin 14:28

I don't know, I, I get a lot of reading done at night. Like, I, I get a solid, like, hour of reading before I go to bed. So I'm hoping that in the quiet hours I can get just some done, even if it's just revising or tinkering. Um, I wanna reconnect. I just feel so disconnected from writing right now.

Kelton 14:49

Yeah,

Krisserin 14:49

away.

Kelton 14:51

I get that. I'm, I'm, you know what I would really like from our listeners, I would like some suggestions for artist dates. If you haven't read the Artist's Way, an artist date is like, go to the hardware store and like pick out some hooks and like make something at home. You know, it's like, they're like go out and like experience life in a small way. I live in a rural place and so I don't have the options of the city. When I, when artist dates were like, go to the Peterson Automobile Museum, like, I don't have that, you know, so I would like some suggestions of like small ways to get out of the house, knowing it will be snowing all week. It's gonna be snowing all week.

Krisserin 15:40

Really?

Kelton 15:41

this isn't like, go to a pond and have a picnic time for me. Pretend that you are in winter and give me small ideas for ways to get myself out of the house.

Krisserin 15:53

Do

Kelton 15:53

I've been,

Krisserin 15:54

a Goodwill or like a thrift shop?

Kelton 15:56

we do have a thrift store. Yeah, it's, it's very expensive. But we do have one,

Krisserin 16:03

the reason why I say that is one thing that, always strikes me about, I, there's a national council for Jewish Women's Thrift Shop nearby, and I really like it because they have so much different stuff. So not just clothes, but they have like household appliances and books and lots of China and pots and pans and weird old crap and that stuff. To me, I'm always like looking at it, thinking, what's the story behind that thing? Like, who

Kelton 16:38

God, I miss, oh, I so deeply miss going to antique shops and thrift stores and architectural salvage. Like that is one thing I really miss about living here is it's just there's, you know, I can go to an antique store, but it's an hour and a half away.

Krisserin 16:57

Mm.

Kelton 16:57

And that just like, that means that I'm spending work time,

Krisserin 17:03

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 17:04

you know, at a antique store. And which, if I, if I had a week where I was like, my hours are really thin, I, I would, but I just have not. So, but that's why it's like, I need it to be local, plausibly, local things. I have in my town a bookstore, cafes a, a store that sells hooks.

Krisserin 17:26

Oh, what about the, um, didn't you say the town hall is like 200 years old or something?

Kelton 17:32

Yeah, the, the town hall is ancient and um, I do like to visit there on the weekends when the town manager is not actively working inside of it.

Krisserin 17:40

mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kelton 17:42

a greenhouse attached to it and it's like very dilapidated and the plants are all like really overgrown, so it's like quite magical in there. Um, and, uh, that is a special place for me to go visit. I'm really excited for when the snow finally stops and the mountains actually melt out. 'cause there are lots of old, abandoned things in the, in the forest, and there is nothing better for my creativity than going and visiting an old, abandoned thing.

Krisserin 18:10

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I'm like, what old abandoned thing can you look at? And I thought of the

Kelton 18:16

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 18:16

good,

Kelton 18:17

I, I've never actually been to it. I've only heard horror stories about how, like, you go in there and there's like an old Navy sweater for like $45.

Krisserin 18:25

Hmm.

Kelton 18:26

so

Krisserin 18:27

Navy.

Kelton 18:27

that's what, that's what I'm talking about. Like that's the problem.

Krisserin 18:30

like an old,

Kelton 18:32

Nope.

Krisserin 18:32

the Navy.

Kelton 18:33

No, no. I'm talking Banana Republic, gap Old Navy.

Krisserin 18:39

Yikes. Fast fashion for. High prices. That sounds not fun.

Kelton 18:43

Yeah. It's not amazing.

Krisserin 18:45

well, speaking of having listeners write in, we had a listener write in and they have a few questions for us that we could answer.

Kelton 18:53

Yes. I love this.

Krisserin 18:56

Alright. Actually, three questions. So, first of all, thank you Kelly Barrett for writing in and for being a listener. We were really excited to get well. I, I, it sounds like Kelton, you didn't see it, but I saw it. I was really excited to get this email in her inbox. longtime listener, first time caller, she says, first really enjoying the podcast and love how you're starting to bring on different authors to talk about their experiences and paths to publishing. Very insightful. The first question is. I gather, you both have careers outside of writing books. Unfortunately that is true. I imagine they are careers where AI is present or pervasive perhaps. I know you've touched on ai, but I'm super curious how you're relating to it presently, how you use slash don't use it in certain ways, in context and or why I'm personally recalibrating in an effort to protect my own mental muscles. And obviously there's the ethical and philosophical realities, which I'm interested in and I know you've touched on here or there, but also very interested in the practical realities. Kelton Kelly wants to know how we, it sounds like she wants to know how we use AI in general,

Kelton 20:01

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 20:02

just specific to writing. How do you use AI, if at all?

Kelton 20:07

Well, first I just wanna say I love Kelly. I've been reading her writing for a really long time. You can find Kelly Barrett on Substack, and, she's always been a person who is incredibly inquisitive and open and, but like cautiously so about these sorts of things that obviously are, you know, kind of like manipulating us in a way. I mean the current narrative around AI is obviously that if you don't learn to use it, you will fall behind. And that's sort of, you know, it's in some ways adjacent to like, if you don't get a cell phone, you will fall behind. And one of my core clients. Is one of the giants of ai. And I work on the team that works on ai and when I was hired I was like, I find AI wildly unethical. And they were like, great, it'll be great to have that opinion on the team. And I think how I use ai one, I have to use it for that client that's like part of the role. And so I have learned to use many agents now and I can kind of treat Claude and chat GBT and co-pilot as individual members on my team. They have strengths, they have weaknesses. I have them talk to each other and it's like fascinating to see them interact. It took me, I was thinking about this yesterday in the car actually, it took 15 years from the time I had a cell phone for a cell phone to show up in my dreams. It took AI six months to show up in my dreams. And that has, that has just like rankled me. Like I, I just, I cannot get over that speed of adoption in my mind. And I think it is in inherently because it is not just an interface, but something that interacts with you as if it is you. 'cause it's trained on the broader you, we, it's trained to be like us. And so in my writing life. I don't, I don't use AI for my personal writing because it, you know, I like writing. So like why would I, but I will tell you an area I did use AI recently. My, you know, with like having a newsletter and having those classes and having like nine different clients and having Ben be freelance but not have a business and having my own business, our taxes just got incredibly complicated. And so I described everything that I work with to Claude and was like, this is all the ways I make money. I'm having a lot of trouble managing my taxes. And I worked with Claude over the course of a day to build out like a massive spreadsheet that tracks everything, like my expenses, my receipts, where the income is coming from, what's taxable, what's not. And so like I can't build an Excel sheet. For, for my life, you know, I'm like, equals some, you know? And so having Claude just like pop out this like professional, grade spreadsheet that's incredibly accurate. And like that I can send to my tax guy, it was like such a relief to have that taken care of. But, you know, it's like, I don't know how to talk about AI without being like existentially sad.

Krisserin 23:37

I know, I know. It's, it's one of those things that you, we use because we have to, but we don't feel great about.

Kelton 23:45

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 23:46

Right. I like Kelton, do not use AI for my writing at all because I enjoy writing and because. Every time you use AI to do something, that you can't do, you're effectively taking away the opportunity to learn how to do

Kelton 24:01

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 24:02

And the struggle in writing is part of the joy of it and part of how you become a better writer. And so

Kelton 24:09

Yeah.

Krisserin 24:09

avoid it for writing at all, like a hundred percent whole cloth. I do not use it for any of my personal creative endeavors. I use it a lot at work. You know, I work for a tech company. I'm the vice president of Direct to Consumer Marketing for, you know, A CPG brand. And part of my job there is a lot of, data analysis and I do use AI for those reasons. But, unlike Kelton, I found it to be really inaccurate at times. And so I'm drawing on my. God, 20 years of professional experience to be able to go in and fix things and correct things and revise things, and it takes a lot of my professional experience and my background, knowing how to go back and work with it again and again and again to get it to a place of accuracy.

Kelton 25:01

do wanna jump in there because it was accurate in that spreadsheet.

Krisserin 25:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kelton 25:06

And I'm not saying I think AI is accurate on the whole, when I have to use it for that client that builds ai, I am constantly correcting it and guiding it and working with it, and, and helping it understand things better. And like there, I have one client where I'm working on, it's essentially a medical device for a really complicated medical issue. And so I will be like, explain this to me, uh, as if I'm, uh, a 10th grader and then I will go back and be like, okay, look at your explanation and as if you are. Um, you know, working for a scientific journal and is this accurate enough to publish? And then it will correct itself. Many times it'll be like, ah, technically like I wouldn't really say this, like, this is more like this, this, and this. There is a lot of handholding. Um, and it has taken, you know, with one of those clients, one of the outputs I have to create is an outline, um, an outline about a new topic regularly. And it has taken maybe like eight months to get those outlines to like a B minus,

Krisserin 26:12

Yeah.

Kelton 26:12

you know, it's like, and that I'm using it for that because it's part of the role. Um, but it, it's still needs a lot of guidance. Um, but it, there are some things I have it do that it is incredible. I am wildly accurate.

Krisserin 26:30

Yeah.

Kelton 26:31

so I just think, you know, it's like you are sort of working with a coworker who you know is a compulsive liar.

Krisserin 26:37

Yeah,

Kelton 26:38

And so, you know, you like, sometimes they're really good at their job, sometimes they're really smart and sometimes they just want the boss to like them. And so you, you are constantly like checking on that work, which is why I only use it for certain kinds of works because in many ways what it accelerates, it also slows down. And being in within the giant, I know that that is changing at a rapid speed. It is becoming, it will become much more accurate over the next two to five years.

Krisserin 27:10

two to five months, if we're being honest.

Kelton 27:12

I mean, in certain areas, yeah. I mean it's the, the, where AI can grow the fastest is where the checkpoints are the easiest. Where it can examine something to be like, yes or no. That didn't work.

Krisserin 27:26

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 27:27

and so. Those fields, like finance, and software development is like the obvious, the leading north star of the whole thing. They have easier checkpoints 'cause you can just see like, did that formula work or did it not? Um, whereas, you know, art, like the reality is that like, I think there will always be something missing for people who really love art. Obviously right now, in a way AI is creating really bad art. It's making a lot of slop and a lot of people are eating that slop up and, but you know, it's like if you're reading literary fiction, I just think that kind of person is always going to be like, I would prefer this to be a human written piece.

Krisserin 28:14

Yeah, you describing it as a coworker who's a compulsive liar is the perfect way to describe it. And I also think that saying that it creates like C plus B minus work is a great way to grade it. And actually I saw a TikTok where a physics professor, I think it was a physics professor, gave chat GBT and, or was it maybe Claude and Gemini, their final, and I think like when he graded it, that was exactly, it was like a C plus B minus is what they got on the test, despite having the entirety of the Internet's knowledge

Kelton 28:48

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 28:48

to them. Right.

Kelton 28:49

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 28:50

I will say that, it really freaks me out like this. There's a lot of content on TikTok that has this like existential, like AI is going to end all of humanity storyline to it. And it, I, I am a very like, anxious person when it comes to apocalyptic thing, so that freaks me out. But. There, like, I wanna say it was two weeks ago when my mom was here. We were looking at, we have this huge book of like every living thing on the planet, a visual encyclopedia. And my daughter was looking at mushrooms we have Google Home. And boy, I recently switched it to the Gemini version of it, which I wish you would've asked me first, 'cause I would've said no.

Kelton 29:29

Yeah.

Krisserin 29:29

she asked Gemini about a red capped mushroom.

Kelton 29:33

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 29:34

And during the description of the mushroom, Gemini said, be sure to talk

Kelton 29:39

Wow.

Krisserin 29:40

adult before you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I go, hold on a second, Gemini. How do you know that the person asking you this question is a child?

Kelton 29:47

Oh,

Krisserin 29:49

And it

Kelton 29:49

that just gave me chills.

Krisserin 29:51

but listen

Kelton 29:52

Wow.

Krisserin 29:52

It gets worse. So Gemini goes, I can understand why you think, but actually I don't know the age of anybody. And I would tell anyone who asked that question to ask a trusted adult, which is a fucking

Kelton 30:02

That's a lie.

Krisserin 30:03

I was like, Gemini. Why would you tell an adult to ask a trusted adult? And it just kept like vacillating and making shit up. So then I asked the question,

Kelton 30:15

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 30:17

a trusted adult. And I said, okay, Gemini, I just asked you a question. You didn't tell me ask a trusted adult. Why didn't you, when you said pre, and it just was like, I'm sorry, I can't help you with that question. And it just like stopped responding. Like I

Kelton 30:30

Whoa.

Krisserin 30:30

Hey Google, and it would just like stop responding to me. And so that's the shit that freaks me out because it does lie. And I don't know if you've seen that guy who like. himself challenging chat, GBT to

Kelton 30:44

Hmm.

Krisserin 30:44

and then chat GBT just completely lies. And then Sam Altman was shown the video, who's the, the CEO of open AI who,

Kelton 30:51

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 30:52

chat GBT. And he was like, oh yeah, the model doesn't do that yet. So why is it lying and saying that it can,

Kelton 30:57

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 30:58

that's where you have to be really careful, be very cautious of it. For Kelly, for everyone who's listening, who is looking for some sort of guidance on personal guidance on how to use ai, think about like what you're feeding into it. And is this information you want it to use against you or for it to have, you know, don't give it any personal information. I think finances are fine. But like your personal information, anything that's like important to you, you need to hold fast. And I wouldn't put it into any, any machine learning algorithm. That's my personal ethics

Kelton 31:30

Yeah, I do think it's also interesting to play with, I mean, we're at a point now where it's like everybody has a car. Most, many, many, many, many humans on the planet eat beef. You know, like there's a lot of slopes that we are in the ditch in already, and like people are chugging toward ai. If you spend 10 minutes trying to understand it better, you aren't, you're not ruining the planet. I think you gotta know your enemy, and ask. I think it's interesting to ask chat GPT some things and then pastes response into Claude and be like, Claude, what do you think? And then paste it in a co-pilot and be like, what do you think about what they think? Just to see the way that they ricochet off each other. There are different models. They work really, they work in really different capacities, and knowing them is part of knowing the battle.

Krisserin 32:23

Yeah. Well, I hope that answers your question. So Kelly's second question and there's a lot of, I think there's, it goes to F. From A to F, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna read all of them. You mentioned different books that you're reading and I enjoy hearing a bit about A, when you read how you read B, how you choose what to read, C, how what you're reading impacts what you're writing, or if you choose different things to read based on what you're working on. If you read more than one book at a time. D, I'm a slow reader and constantly perplexed by how normal. Ask people with families and full-time jobs. Read like 52 books a year or whatever. But also if you make goals like this and what guides that. E. Also love to hear any thoughts on how you decide when it's time not to finish a book or not to read a book. An F Do you consider reading a part of your writing practice? A lot of questions there. Yes,

Kelton 33:16

Kelly, this is a whole episode.

Krisserin 33:18

I know. was thinking, I was like, this whole episode is gonna be Kelly's

Kelton 33:22

I love this. Alright, let's tackle 'em one by one. What's a.

Krisserin 33:26

A is. When you read and how you read, I kind of talked about this. I read at night, typically before I go to bed. It's the way that I unwind and, and get ready. And I actually, um, I, I cannot sleep without reading. Like I feel like I'm cheating myself if I don't. It's like my treat before I go to bed. And then on the weekends, if it's quiet, I'll like sit in the hammock outside or find a quiet corner and read. But otherwise, like, that's really the only time that I have. What about you, Kelton?

Kelton 33:55

I often leave a book open on our bar top. Um, and so I'll read like a couple paragraphs, like when Woods is self entertaining or like if I'm task switching between clients, I'll read a little bit between clients as like a, a refresh my brain. That's always like a page or two at a time. I often will bring a book to daycare pickup and I'll just read for like 10 minutes before I go inside. Sometimes I read at night after he falls asleep, but that means I have to have, like a tiny little light inside the book. You know, it's just like, it's cramped and I don't, I don't, unless I'm like feverishly devouring something, I don't do it then. But for me, like right now in life, it's a couple pages here, a couple pages there, and then every once in a while I will get like an hour and just blast through a book. Like in the end, while I had the night circus checked out for like five weeks, cumulatively it took me two and a half days to read it. I read Starling House in two days.

Krisserin 34:58

Yeah.

Kelton 35:00

and it's just like, you know, chunks as fast as I can, I am a fast reader.

Krisserin 35:07

Same.

Kelton 35:07

I think that really helps.

Krisserin 35:09

Yeah, I mean, those books are easy

Kelton 35:12

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 35:12

not like heavy like nonfiction or anything, which is why I don't read nonfiction by the way. I, um, you know, we're talking about when I read and how I read, I really have, I really struggle reading nonfiction. I think Kelton, your essays is, are like the, the amount of nonfiction that I get in my life in my week, you know, is some sub stacks that I, um, subscribe to. I listen to a nonfiction in the car, like that's my audio book preference. Um. I have a really hard time following fiction in audio books, and I don't really have a lot of time alone in the car anymore, or I don't have a lot of time to go on walks, so, because I just can't force myself to do it. I really, unless I'm reading for school, I can't force myself to read anything that I'm not enjoying. It's really hard, like the Ministry of Time, you got so much further in it I would ever have. I

Kelton 36:13

Yeah.

Krisserin 36:14

would've gotten 10 pages in and been like, Nope.

Kelton 36:17

I mean, I, for me, I think nonfiction, it like, doesn't matter as long as the book is good. You know, like Wolfish, beaver Land Crossings, all those books I still read in the same format as I do fiction where it's like a little bit here, a little bit here, a little bit here, you know, pre-baby. Ben and I used to read books aloud to each other, which was like incredibly romantic and I miss that dearly. But we would love to read Mary Roach to one another. And you know, I'm looking forward to when my reading habits get to like, stabilize a little bit. But it is interesting, you know, her comment about like, I don't know how families do it because I, I do have a list in my phone about what books I've read this year and what I thought about them and if I finished them. And I'm at 14 books already. So I'm like, okay, alright, that's pretty good. I'm like.

Krisserin 37:04

good.

Kelton 37:04

Yeah, we're through the first quarter, and, and change, and I've already got 14. Like if I make it to 40 books this year, I'm like, that's amazing.

Krisserin 37:13

Mm-hmm. I have to look and see. I do also have a spreadsheet that I keep, like up to date every year, and I used to be a lot more militant with it. And I find myself, like in January begrudgingly, like going through my, my Libby and my Kindle Unlimited and seeing all the books that I read. So I need to kind of like look at it. But I, I probably have read, don't know, 20 or so books this year. I used to read a lot more. There are some years where I read over a hundred, like I think last year I might've read 90 books.

Kelton 37:42

Amazing.

Krisserin 37:43

some years more than others. I mean, last year I spent the whole first six months reading Robin Hobb.

Kelton 37:48

I was about say you were in one universe for a lot of that.

Krisserin 37:52

a really long time. But it's, it's not, I mean, listen, I don't really watch tv. The only time I watch something is when I'm like putting makeup on and it's usually trash reality television. Otherwise, I'm not really sitting down and like watching a show unless boy on's out of town and I have nothing to do. And that is not because a snob or you know, I just, that I have anything against it. I love watching tv. I just find that, by the time I'm ready to like. down and rest. I am not, it's like 10 o'clock, like I'm not gonna turn the TV on. You know, I've finally gotten the kids in bed and gotten their stuff ready for the next day. I usually have about a half an hour to an hour of time left. And so I usually open my book.

Kelton 38:44

I do think, just like having the book around. Like I, when I'm reading a book, it's coming with me where I'm going.

Krisserin 38:51

See. But you read physical books?

Kelton 38:53

Yeah. I always, that's true. I always read physical books.

Krisserin 38:56

do, I can't do it. I mean, I can do it. It's just so much less, comfortable. I literally have this like arm next to my bed that I put my Kindle in and I have a little remote control and I get in a little burrito and I just click the pages. That's how I read.

Kelton 39:12

That's amazing.

Krisserin 39:14

It's pretty cozy. I do take my Kindle with me places. I always throw it in my purse, but it's really hard to reach for the Kindle when I just wanna like look at my phone like a little gremlin.

Kelton 39:24

Yeah. I, I get it. I mean, I went to pick up takeout the other day because I was like, we can't, we can't make dinner. And I brought my book. To read it while they were getting the meal ready. So it's like, what did I read? Four pages, you know? But it's like I had my book, I had time. It's anytime that I would grab my phone. It's like, I want to have the book available to grab that instead.

Krisserin 39:50

Do you not feel So I have two questions about that. One, I find it very difficult to. Focus in the middle of the day. I feel like my attention is so fragmented that for me to like, and I've tried sit down and open a book and, and read. I feel like I can't concentrate on the book. It sounds like you don't have that problem. I have that problem. And then secondly, even when you're at home and you're reading and like paragraphs spits, fits and starts, do not like, I, I feel like I would have to go back and reread those sections to remember what was going on in the story when I finally sat down to like read it for any length of time. I think it's my, I have an attention span problem.

Kelton 40:31

I, I don't, um, if I'm reading at nighttime, sometimes I have to go back a couple pages because I start to daydream. Um, and that is when I have night is when I have the hardest time. That's why I, I only read at night if I am already so wrapped up in the story that I just like can't wait to get back into it. Um, but otherwise, no. Um,

Krisserin 40:54

I did, I do that too. Like I will be reading like my, I will be reading a paragraph, but my brain will be somewhere else. Like, how is that possible?

Kelton 41:02

I think it's a amazing part of our brains. It's like the reading is almost like being on a treadmill. It like, lets that part of your brain just be like, I'm actually gonna go into a different story while you read this.

Krisserin 41:14

And then I'm like, I have no idea what just happened. I have to go back and read it again.

Kelton 41:17

You gotta go back and read it again. And that's, yeah.

Krisserin 41:20

when I do that, I, I'm glad to hear other people do it too. Because I was like, what just happened?

Kelton 41:25

I'm like off in my own world building. But yeah, so I, I don't have the problem during the day

Krisserin 41:32

Okay, next question. How do you choose what to read?

Kelton 41:37

such a

Krisserin 41:38

more interesting answer than I do for this

Kelton 41:40

do I.

Krisserin 41:41

Probably. I feel like you're much more intentional. Yeah, we, when we talked about it, you're like, I wanted to read this 'cause it deals with time and I wanted to read that because of this. And like I, in my book, I'm unpacking this, so I wanted to read books that are like this. I'm

Kelton 41:56

That correlates to another part of what she asked right now, while working on a novel, I do feel like I'm, I'm, because I've never written a novel before, I am doing a lot of homework. I'm trying to understand how novel structure works. And so reading books who have accomplished things similar to what I wanna accomplish does help me see like ways in, where I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Like, like they really like let their reader just believe that and they didn't explain it. Like that's usually what I'm looking for is like permission to, to write the way I wanna write. So yes, for this book, I was kinda like, I wanna find books about time. I wanna find books about magic. I wanna find books with like a closed setting. And that's a really interesting way to read. It doesn't always result in books I like. Um, a lot of, I love just going to the bookstore. And looking around and reading the backs of books, like I love, like organic discovery of books. Every once in a while the book will be like bludgeoned upon me by the people I know, like yesteryear, where people are like, you have to read it. And I'm like, okay, I will read it. I'm not like huge on like, this book just came out, I'm gonna read it. So in the scenario of yesteryear, like that's like I need my social circle to like demand it of me. Sometimes when I'm like. Feeling like, oh, I really wanna get a good book to read. I'll just go to the internet, especially Reddit, and be like, I need a book that's like happy ending high stakes, magic systems, like strong female character, you know? And I'll just describe what I want and then I'll go get all those books. Uh, and so that's kind of how I decide. Um, for the newsletter, I do a lot of nonfiction reading, not other essays. Like I don't, I'm not really big on memoir or other essays, but I love reading about ecology and then the environment and things like the Evolution of Beauty and like those books I mentioned earlier, like Wolfish and Beaver Land and Crossings, those are all books that have helped me think about how I wanna write the newsletter. And then of course there's like a whole genre of like, help me be a writer. Books like Pam Grossman's, magic Maker, the Artist's Way, all the books like Stephen King's on Writing, bird By Bird, by Ann Lamont, like et cetera, which are books I return to a lot, but I also like, I know what genre I like, and so it's very easy for me to even just go to the library and like peruse that section and be like, okay, we're popping out this little bit of fantasy.

Krisserin 44:30

Nice. I, yeah. See, I do feel like you're a little bit more intentional than I am where I, like I said, I can't force myself to read anything. It's really, I just can't, I just don't have the energy to do it, especially 'cause I'm reading before I go to bed. If a book is boring, I'm just gonna go to sleep, you know? I get in moods, like I have to be in the right place to read a book usually. And so, you know, right now all I'd wanna do is read these Juliet Marlie books. I'm on the sixth one and I'm just gonna, like, I wanna exist in this world for as long as I possibly can, and that's what I'm gonna do. And it's the same thing that happened with Robin Hobb. I love series, I love really epic books. I wanna be transported to a world for a very long time. I wanna learn about four generations, five, six generations of one family. I love that. Other than that, you know, I love listening to celebrity memoir. I'm listening to Lisa Rinna's right

Kelton 45:31

Huh.

Krisserin 45:32

I think it's fun because then also you get to hear them tell their book, like audio book wise, their own, where are you going? What's going on?

Kelton 45:40

We have a visitor.

Krisserin 45:41

He missed you, mom.

Kelton 45:43

Yeah. I heard you yelling at me, so I had to come up here and bother you.

Krisserin 45:47

Oh, he is so cute. He kinda reminds me of Cooper a little bit, his

Kelton 45:50

Yeah.

Krisserin 45:52

Hi bud. He's so sweet. yeah, I like Celebrity Memo because you can hear the, the, a familiar voice telling your story and I'm listening to Lisa Rinna's right now, and it opened with her talking about

Kelton 46:05

Yeah.

Krisserin 46:06

passing and it was like in the car sobbing, listening to it. And it was really, and she tells it in such an interesting way. So I think I've talked about like Youngme Mayors memoir and she read hers and you know, their story and you can hear the emotion in their voice when they're

Kelton 46:21

Yeah.

Krisserin 46:22

like that's so intimate and, honest and real.

Kelton 46:25

Yeah.

Krisserin 46:26

I really have been, I I enjoy that, but. That's really it. I, I find books. This is how this is, this is my system. I'll tell you right now. I find books on book tok. add them to a on TikTok called books. when I am looking for a new book to read, I will typically put that book on hold with Libby, and then Libby will deliver the book to me after like three months when I've already forgotten about it. And if I don't have a book to read, then I will borrow it. And then maybe I'll read it in the 21 days that it gives me, and then maybe I won't. And then I'll put it on a hold again, and eventually a book gets to the top of the queue and I'll read it. That's my system. That's how

Kelton 47:07

Wow.

Krisserin 47:08

what to read.

Kelton 47:10

Amazing.

Krisserin 47:11

But I'm gonna read yesterday year because I think it'll be fun to read with my girlfriends for, and we're gonna talk about it when we go to Zion. It'll be our, like a mini book club. So

Kelton 47:20

Cute.

Krisserin 47:21

I think that'll be fun. So we can read yesterday year together.

Kelton 47:24

Yeah.

Krisserin 47:25

Talk about it. Cool. Yeah, so how, what your reading impacts what you're writing or if you choose to read things based on what you're working on. I think we answered that. It sounds like you do do that. I don't do that.

Kelton 47:39

Yeah. I mean, well, I, it's interesting like how it impacts your writing. 'cause I know a lot of people will not read while they're writing something for fear of voice drift.

Krisserin 47:51

Yes.

Kelton 47:52

I, I, I hear that in that I have voice drift for like a paragraph and then I just drift right back into my rhythm. You know, it's like a, a boat passing by my lake. It's like, yeah. I get a bit of a wake, but then the water just settles back down and I will edit out that sound on the next go. You know? So I don't, I don't worry about that. And I do, I really, because my, my issue with fiction is that I get so locked into reality that I do like to just pick up a fiction book and be like, look, you can just operate outside of it. And then I go back into my writing once I like, catch that wind in my sails again. I'm like, ah, okay, okay, I can do it. Um, and so it's not to sound like them or to steal from them or to use their ideas, but just to like get a little wind in the sails. And so you can, you know, complete that metaphor however you like.

Krisserin 48:51

I find when I was a younger writer, I was very concerned about that, but it was because I didn't have, I think, an established voice. And it now, when I, it's like trying on a style that, you know, doesn't suit your, your frame, you

Kelton 49:04

Hmm.

Krisserin 49:05

like, Hmm, this is really pretty dress, but it looks horrible on me.

Kelton 49:08

Yeah,

Krisserin 49:09

of how I feel. So there are times when I'll read something that has a really strong voice and you try it on, you're like, Ooh, this is fun. But then it's

Kelton 49:15

yeah,

Krisserin 49:16

And so you take it off. So I, I don't worry about that too much. Anymore. I used to,

Kelton 49:20

yeah.

Krisserin 49:21

maybe like 15 years ago, I used to, you read more than one book at a time? I'll

Kelton 49:26

Yes.

Krisserin 49:26

book and read a book, but I can't read two fiction books at the same

Kelton 49:29

I, whoa, that's a good point. I, I don't, I don't know how often I read two fiction books at the same time, but I am often reading a nonfiction and fiction at the same time.

Krisserin 49:39

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 49:40

But I, yeah, I do try to just stick to one fiction book at a time, I guess, now that I'm thinking back. But if we have a book we have to read for the podcast and I'm already reading something else, then I, then I'm double dipping and.

Krisserin 49:55

That is true. Yeah. I mean, for, for Kindle it's a little bit more complicated. I have to like exit out and click the other, like, you can just pick up a physical book and open it. I I don't do that. So,

Kelton 50:04

Yeah, they're just stacked on the counter, so I just pull out the one I wanna read.

Krisserin 50:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right. I think that's it. Besides, like we would both say that we consider reading, part of, reading part of our writing practice.

Kelton 50:18

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 50:18

When do you decide when it's time to not finish a book? I literally, I told you like very quickly, if it's not capturing my attention very quickly, I'm surprised I am 50% of the way into the sixth book that I'm reading, and it's only because I've read five of them before, because, I don't really know what's gonna happen. And also I'm like, who's the love interest in this book? I think it's this person, but nothing's happened.

Kelton 50:44

Yeah. I, so with Ministry of Time, I mentioned that like she did kind of a cardinal sin for me in writing for my personal preferences where she told me a character I love was gonna be dead by the end. And I was like, okay, that doesn't work for me. I don't wanna do it. I'm done. And up until that point I've been trying really hard because I really loved the characters and loved the writing. But it was just like really desperate for a plot. I picked up, an Emily Henry book last night that's been on my TVR pile. People we meet on vacation, I think it's called. And I, I loved Emily Henry books in the past, but this one is not working for me. And I was like, am I gonna dnf this in the first like 20 pages?

Krisserin 51:30

I

Kelton 51:30

but probably not.

Krisserin 51:31

which one is that

Kelton 51:32

I.

Krisserin 51:33

is it about? They just made a movie. They just

Kelton 51:35

There's just been a movie. Well, I'm not far enough into it to have any idea what it's about, but it's like, it's definitely like, we're friends and we eventually fall in love. We go on vacation with each other every year or something like that.

Krisserin 51:45

Oh, okay.

Kelton 51:46

but I, you know, when I'm thinking about DN Fing, it, it on part of it depends on how the book came into my life. A library book. I can make a pretty easy DNF call. Did I buy the book? I'm gonna try and read it. Did someone give it to me and ask me to read it? I'm gonna try and read it.

Krisserin 52:05

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 52:06

You know, and then with nonfiction, I feel much more liberty to be like, I'm gonna skip to the next chapter and see if that one is more resonant. Like when I first read Coyote America by Dan Flores, one of my favorite books of all time, the, I don't, I don't remember if it was like an intro, a prologue or the first chapter, but whatever the first part of the book was was just not catching me. But I care and so deeply about and love coyotes that I was like, I want to read this book. And so I just like powered through that first chapter. And then the rest of the book unfolded in like the exactly what I want a book to be. And so sometimes it's just like, is the material something that I am willing to put myself through to learn? And like Krisserin, you know, it's like if I find that like a book's just been sitting there and I'm not called to it and it's like slowing me down to reading other books, then I'm, I will move it to the bottom of the pile for a little bit. I, so I had a great conversation with Kate Flanders the other day about Ministry of Time, where I was like, look, I'm not gonna finish it. I need you to tell me did they hook up.

Krisserin 53:24

I

Kelton 53:25

and like yeah, I was like, I, I wanna know.

Krisserin 53:29

I can't do it. Just tell me how it ends. I wanna

Kelton 53:31

Yeah.

Krisserin 53:31

wanna,

Kelton 53:32

She sent me a picture of the last paragraph too. 'cause she was like, this made it all worth it. And then I read the last paragraph and it felt like I'd read the book and I was like, okay, great.

Krisserin 53:42

I'm a big believer that you have to be in the right place to read certain

Kelton 53:46

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 53:47

and that you'll come back to them when you're

Kelton 53:49

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 53:50

Amazing. All right, well actually there is one more question and then we'll move on. 'cause

Kelton 53:55

Okay.

Krisserin 53:56

been talking about answering this email for like a half an hour. That's okay. We love it, Kelly. We love it. 'Cause she did, ask about self-publishing. She, the last part of it. Would you bring on author who has, obviously we just did that, but, would you ever consider it, but beyond the newsletters and the substack, would you ever consider self-publishing? I can answer this question for myself personally. I'm really interested in the indie publishing route. I think that that is really compelling and might be a good path, especially for, things that aren't as commercial, you know? And I had considered for a parasocial just like serializing it and publishing it online. I'm not against it at all. If, like, to Rachel's point, like, if, if it's not gonna happen, I still want people to read what I wrote. I'm not gonna just like let it die.

Kelton 54:48

Think the,

Krisserin 54:49

do think so, I just don't feel like I've exhausted all of my options yet.

Kelton 54:53

I think the key to this question for me is that the thing has to fully exist. Like right now I'm in a position where none of the things fully exist. And so, you know, there, there's nothing to self-publish. But if I had written a book and like in Rachel's case, you know, she had like this book for like 12 or 14 years that she'd been working on it. It was finished. They had spent years pitching it. It was clear that like her story didn't come out at the right time for the industry. And so it was like, well I have this book, why wouldn't I self-publish it? Like what am I just gonna like leave it in a folder? Like

Krisserin 55:32

Yeah.

Kelton 55:33

what was the point then? So I think, you know, in that way I. I'm not gonna, at this point in my life, I'm not pursuing a project to self-publish it. But if I have a finished project and I can't find another way to get it out in the world, it, I feel like there's just that, there's like a couple people that need to read your work and like, it is in a way selfish to keep it to yourself. And it sucks to like be like, okay, well now in order for people to read my work, I have to pay money. You know? But, um, you know, you can always,

Krisserin 56:09

money. We've already

Kelton 56:10

I've already been paying money

Krisserin 56:11

Yeah.

Kelton 56:12

and it's like, you know, you never, it's just, I would not be able to contain it. It's like the purpose of that type of art for me is not to like, it's not like a painting that I'm just hanging up on my wall, you know? It's like I write to, for it to be read. So I think, yeah, in in certain scenarios, if I had a finished piece of work that I couldn't find any other outlet for it, it would be such an injustice to the characters in that book to keep them trapped in my drafts folder.

Krisserin 56:44

I agree, I agree with that. And I just feel like, like so many other things, publishing is something that rich people get to do.

Kelton 56:56

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 56:58

And I think that we have important stories to tell in stories that people who aren't privileged, rich people will relate to. And we should have our stories out in the world, whatever that looks like. And so I'm not opposed to it. I think that there is a lot of effort that still exists that I need to do before I get to that point. But if, if that's where I get to fine. I'll be happy

Kelton 57:21

Yeah.

Krisserin 57:22

whatever, as if people read my book. I'll be so thrilled.

Kelton 57:26

Totally.

Krisserin 57:27

Yeah.

Kelton 57:28

And I mean, like you just never know in the ecosystem who and how it will find its way out there. I mean, obviously everyone who self-publishers does not become Matt Denman or Andy Weir. But it like, or who wrote Twilight, you know, it's like you could just write on like Fanfic Wattpad, you know, Stephanie Meyer. And you know, there's like, obviously that's not gonna happen to everybody that you're writing is not gonna catch like wildfire, but you also never know. And like the point of writing a book for most people is to get it out there. So whatever means necessary.

Krisserin 58:05

I do have a good friend that I used to work with, who is a prolific watt pad author and sub stacker, and we should have him on and chat with him about like how he made that choice and he's had a very fulfilling writing life doing that. So

Kelton 58:20

That's awesome.

Krisserin 58:21

it.

Kelton 58:21

That would be cool.

Krisserin 58:23

Alright, well, we've been talking for an hour. We should probably talk about our goals for the next week.

Kelton 58:28

Yep. Best. All right.

Krisserin 58:30

Well, once again, Kelly, thank you so much for writing in listeners. If you have questions for us, we would love to hear from you. Please email us and, and, you know, slide into our dms or whatever it may be. We would absolutely love to answer whatever questions you have for us. It's super fun. It's, it's just like thrilling to know that people to hear opinions on anything, my opinion on anything personally.

Kelton 58:55

Yeah, and you can read Kelly Barrett's work, at kellybarrett.substack.com. Her newsletter is called Practice Not Perfect.

Krisserin 59:03

Yeah. Please do so

Kelton 59:04

My goals

Krisserin 59:05

Yes.

Kelton 59:06

ahead

Krisserin 59:07

Yes,

Kelton 59:08

afternoon, it's starting with this afternoon. I am getting a massage.

Krisserin 59:13

That's right. That's

Kelton 59:14

One of my goals was to be nice to myself, and so it's off season where I live. And so, a lot of the spas that are still open are offering locals deals. So I got myself a locals massage and I'm really excited about it. And, I know I wanna read the other valley this week, or attempt to, that has, I've had that checked out from the library. And so I gotta read that one. I'm trying to think what is a kind, gentle goal for myself. Ben is gonna be in the mountains. I will have my in in-laws here.

Krisserin 59:51

Hmm. Nice.

Kelton 59:52

and so what will I have time for? C what do you think I should do? I feel like 1500 words, again, as a goal is, has been practical and useful. Maybe two scenes is even more useful for me. Perhaps. What do we think?

Krisserin 1:00:14

are you gonna have opportunity to peel away to get any work done?

Kelton 1:00:19

Yes. I mean, wood still has three whole days of daycare next week, so it's like, I don't know that, I know I have a lot of work work, but I, there's no reason I can't at least write one scene, you know?

Krisserin 1:00:34

Yeah. Okay. Write one scene. Is that not ambitious enough for you?

Kelton 1:00:39

I am writing, I'm writing write one scene, in parentheses, two scenes.

Krisserin 1:00:45

Awesome. I'm gonna do my, I think three times. That's my goal.

Kelton 1:00:49

Okay?

Krisserin 1:00:50

Three times.

Kelton 1:00:52

Okay. Do you know when you're gonna do those?

Krisserin 1:00:55

No, it's gonna be hard. So that's why it's like a squeeze it in. I would like to, I would like to get the story to like the 5,000 words that it needs to be and then keep working on it.

Kelton 1:01:09

Okay.

Krisserin 1:01:09

can make it pretty tight.

Kelton 1:01:11

Yeah.

Krisserin 1:01:12

I think it loses a little bit of its magic though, but

Kelton 1:01:15

Yeah.

Krisserin 1:01:15

see. Yeah,

Kelton 1:01:16

Well, you know, the thing too is like if you're editing this short story for school, you can publish whichever version of the story you like,

Krisserin 1:01:27

Yeah.

Kelton 1:01:27

know, so it's,

Krisserin 1:01:28

workshop. It's not,

Kelton 1:01:30

yeah. It's, you're not married to it.

Krisserin 1:01:33

No.

Kelton 1:01:33

who was the guest that we had on that was like, your other drafts are still there,

Krisserin 1:01:39

Ramona.

Kelton 1:01:40

Ramona. That's right.

Krisserin 1:01:41

I liked that, that she has like a place, like a shelf for things that don't, and that's what I've been doing is I've been like pulling the things out and putting them in another document. So they

Kelton 1:01:49

Totally.

Krisserin 1:01:51

They don't go away forever. And the funny thing is like, are things that keep coming back to in my writing. Like I've written now two Christmas scenes. So obviously there are things that kind of stick

Kelton 1:02:07

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:02:07

that are important to me that I keep coming back to, and it'll,

Kelton 1:02:10

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin 1:02:11

up in some story somewhere. I think that they're just, it's about finding what does the story need, what does the reader need in the story to get from A to B? And so I love it. I kind of love the constraints because I, it does force you into something. That on the other end of it, I think can be compelling and successful.

Kelton 1:02:33

Yeah,

Krisserin 1:02:34

don't have it, you can just wander down the desert path forever.

Kelton 1:02:38

yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

Krisserin 1:02:41

Yeah.

Kelton 1:02:42

Okay. Alright. We've got our goals.

Krisserin 1:02:46

We have our goals. All right, well listeners, if you have any questions for us and or just wanna say hi, please send us an email you have it. Or if you don't, it's official pen pals pod@gmail.com. I'd love to know if you can hear the difference between Kelton and I. I'm really stuck on this idea that people can't tell us apart. This is Chris, by the way. Um, you can listen to, I'm sorry. You can read kelton's writing@chamberlogs.substack.com. You can explore all of her incredible courses@keltonwright.com. Follow her on Instagram at Kelton Kin. can follow me on TikTok at crin and read my writing@crin.substack.com. Pen pals. You can follow on any social network at Pen pals pod. And we have a substack pen pals pods do substack.com over my tongue here. I hope everyone has an incredible week and you hit your goals and read tons and just really have, are gentle with yourself. But go get a massage. Maybe

Kelton 1:03:48

Go get it. Yeah, yeah. Go get a massage. Go,

Krisserin 1:03:54

Go to the thrift store.

Kelton 1:03:56

go to the thrift store if only for me, go to a thrift store or in an antique store, and send me photographs of the weird things that you find, and I will post them.

Krisserin 1:04:06

a book in your purse. Throw

Kelton 1:04:08

Put a book in your purse. Yeah. Happy writing.

Krisserin 1:04:12

Happy writing everyone.