Pen Pals

Alli Hoff Kosik on Writing Christian Influencers with Heart in Too Blessed to Stress

• Krisserin Canary and Kelton Wright • Season 2 • Episode 31

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This week on Pen Pals, Krisserin and Kelton sit down with debut novelist Alli Hoff Kosik to discuss her buzzy new novel, Too Blessed to Stress — a sharp, funny, and unexpectedly tender story about Christian influencers, megachurch culture, and the complicated women behind perfectly curated feeds.

Alli shares how a pandemic-era fascination with influencer culture inspired the book, why she wanted to approach her characters with empathy instead of judgment, and how social media, capitalism, faith, and performance intersect online. They also discuss writing motherhood into real life, balancing creativity with burnout, MFA programs, multiple POV novels, and the challenge of building a writing life while raising small children.

Plus: Secret Lives of Mormon Wives comparisons, parasocial internet rabbit holes, writing routines, podcasting, and whether Krisserin and Kelton actually sound the same.

Books Mentioned in This Episode
The Other Valley by Scott Alexander Howard
The Giver by Lois Lowry
Prep by Curtis Sittenfeld
Such a Fun Age by Kiley Reid
Come and Get It by Kiley Reid
Maame by Jessica George
Love by the Book by Jessica George
Confessions of a Shopaholic by Sophie Kinsella
Long Bright River by Liz Moore
Nightshade by Eli Raphael

Find Alli Hoff Kosik
Website: Alli Hoff Kosik Official Website
Instagram: @allihoffkosik
Substack: https://allihoffkosik.substack.com/
Podcast: Is This a Thing? with Abby Wolfe
Buy Too Blessed to Stress on Bookshop.org

Write to us:
officialpenpalspod@gmail.com

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton

Hi, Krisserin.

Krisserin

Hi, Kelton. Good morning. Happy Pen Pals Day.

Kelton

Happy Pen Pals Day. I can't stop thinking about how alike our voices sound now.

Krisserin

no.

Kelton

so aware of it.

Krisserin

I think we just have to say each other's names more often maybe, right

Kelton

Yeah. Yes, that sounds exactly right, Krisserin.

Speaker

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections

Speaker 2

and hopefully eventual success

Speaker

from California to

Speaker 2

Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton

are you this morning?

Krisserin

I'm good. I'm good. I, um, I feel insane.

Kelton

Tell me more.

Krisserin

Uh, I just, I feel like life is so busy right now, and I did it to myself, so I can't be mad at it. But I also feel just, like, crazy with all of the stuff that's happening. I mean, work's crazy. got th- like, my team is either gone or on paternity leave I'm covering three roles right now top of my job, senior director roles, not just, like, low-level roles. Like, three of my, you know, team is out,

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

Krisserin

that's crazy. And then, I've got, like, school, kids' school stuff

Kelton

None?

Krisserin

and then I've got project stuff that's crazy, and, the podcast crazy, and very little writing craz- no, no crazy on the writing front. The

Kelton

Oh,

Krisserin

very little.

Kelton

no.

Krisserin

I know. I think it's also that I'm just a little uninspired right now. I think that probably has something to do with it. I was thinking about how you were saying last week, maybe it was two weeks ago, I can't remember, that you wanted to do the artist's way, and I am thinking that I need something. I went to a breathwork workshop on Sunday with my friend and fellow writer, Amanda Fletcher, who we're gonna have on the podcast to talk about breathwork and writing, and I'm really excited about it. it did unlock something in me. That's why I was like, "We should have her come on and talk about it," 'cause she is a writer does this incredible breathwork, know, as a... in workshops. She has online classes for it too. But, I was, like, sobbing. Like, behind an eye mask where no one could see me, I was like... I'm sure she'll love to hear that. I'm sure she saw me. She came and put her hand on, her hand on my shoulder at one point, and I was like, "She knows I'm crying." But we'll talk about that with her. But it did kind of unlock something in me, that made me think about my writing, and I just feel like I need to do more things to kind of, like, unlock my brain and get me

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

a creative mode, and it's probably, like, looking at- Ramona's book, Unstuck, and doing some prompts there, but I just feel like it, it's gonna be hard from now until school ends to get any good writing done. So I'm glad everyone's listen- tuning in to listen to me talk about how I'm not writing right now, but what about you, Kelton? How was your week?

Kelton

Well, d- does that mean you got your three writing times in or not?

Krisserin

I did

Kelton

No? Okay.

Krisserin

one. I did one morning of revision, and I think it was, like, Saturday morning. Yeah.

Kelton

Okay,

Krisserin

Yeah, and

Kelton

All right, well, one out of three.

Krisserin

"Doo-doo-doo. Mommy, Mommy, Mommy," and then I was like, "All right, I'm done."

Kelton

Did you work on-- I know that one of your other goals was to work on your Marian short story. Did you do that in your writing session?

Krisserin

that's what I did, is I was revising Marian.

Kelton

Nice.

Krisserin

God, 5,000 words is short. I don't know how

Kelton

Yeah, that's,

Krisserin

but...

Kelton

that's really short.

Krisserin

Yeah. So we'll, we'll figure it out, but yeah, that's pretty much all I did. I did read. I'm almost done with the sixth book the, Sevenwater series, which seems to be dragging.

Kelton

Mm.

Krisserin

I've literally-- I'm gonna have book club on, like, the 16th. I gotta, gotta read this book. I'm sure I'll read it quickly, though.

Kelton

Yeah. I mean, it, it sounds like everyone does. "Yesteryear" seems like a real two-day read.

Krisserin

I love a two-day, I love a two-day read. I love a two-day read.

Kelton

Me too.

Krisserin

What about you? W- how was your week?

Kelton

Well, my goal was to write one scene, and in parentheses after that, I wrote two scenes. And, I did that. I wrote two scenes. I wrote 2,700 words. I feel like the first 1,100 of those words are quite good, and then the rest of them are quite sloppy. So I-- But I kind of like having a, a place that I have to jump back into and edit before I start writing the next thing, so I get some kind of momentum going there. And I gotta tell you, I just feel like this whole week I was, like, right on the verge of emotional collapse. I was-- I've never felt so so close to, like, full burnout as I did this week. And I didn't even have that much to do this week, my... Which, thank God, 'cause my body was just like, "I don't have anything left." And I kept, like, Googling things to be like, "Oh, what do I do about this?" And like, "What's this?" And the internet was like, "You got postpartum depression."

Krisserin

my

Kelton

was just like,

Krisserin

thanks.

Kelton

babe. It's like two years later. I don't have time to deal with this." Like, I'm not, I'm not interested in going into the doctor and getting a temporary Lexapro, like, prescription. I just want you to tell me some, like, kundalini exercises to, like, help get a momentary boost of dopamine. And then like, you know, last night, Woods slept, like, three hours. So, he was just, like, crying. N- n- no, it was a horrible thing. He,

Krisserin

I

Kelton

he was super...

Krisserin

he slept three hours. I was

Kelton

No, no, no, no, no. Um, no, he was, uh, h- he had some, like, gut problem last night, and so he just didn't sleep at all, and I just, I feel ragged. I'm, really glad, I'm really glad I took this month off the newsletter, 'cause not only clearly did I need it, but I also don't want to be, like, writing publicly when I'm in this space because I've, I just don't like the way it's received most of the time. And maybe that's a product of the writing itself. But I find that when I'm in this state and I write, I get a lot of like, "You've got this. Thinking of you. Talk to me if you need me."

Krisserin

Yeah.

Kelton

I just like, you know I respond so poorly to that. Yeah. I'm like, "Unless you're gonna come over and take this kid out of my arms, don't talk to me." That's it.

Krisserin

I wish I could do that for you.

Kelton

I know. I, I wish you could, too.

Krisserin

yeah.

Kelton

my other goal for the week was a little reading. I wanted to read The Other Valley. Um, and I did start that. Uh, that was another one of the sci-fi books that had been on Kate Flanders' taste test list for her sci-fi experiment, and I knew that she, she had kinda given it up early because it reminded her of The Giver. And literally, uh, yeah, literally on the first page of this book, I was like, "This sounds like The Giver."

Krisserin

You know, I've never read The Giver. I feel like everyone reads that in school. What, uh, what grade I don't know, but I never read it.

Kelton

I mean,

Krisserin

reads it in school, right?

Kelton

everyone reads it in school. Yeah, no, it's not like a book, um, girlies are checking out of the library. But, um, it, it, it is very memorable, and I think that's kind of why it gets referenced a lot. But I I texted Kate this morning to be like, "I want to read this man's query letter." Like, I wanna know how a book that feels so identical in the first 30 pages to The Giver ends up getting published. Obviously, that happens a lot. There's only so many stories, but this one, like, I just wanna know how he framed it to make it, make, compel someone to want to read the full manuscript, 'cause otherwise I'd be like, "I read this story."

Krisserin

Yeah, that'd be really interesting. Well maybe the agent is like me and has never read The Giver. So they don't

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

Oh, man.

Kelton

You know what else I did? I read Too Blessed to Stress by our guest today. This, this was a two-day read for me. I breezed right through this. We are having Ali Hof Kosik on the podcast today. She full-time writer and editor, and for seven years she independently produced and hosted the SSR podcast, Shit She Reads, I think. Ali has an MFA from Temple University, and she lives in Philly with her family, and Too Blessed to Stress is her first novel. It's for fans of Bad Summer People and The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. It is about four influencers who begin to suspect their mega church's new pastor isn't as devoted as he might seem, and must decide if exposing him is worth revealing their own secrets. New York Times bestselling author Kiley Reid describes it as, "A delightful satire full of tenderness and heart." For me, it was a blasphemous walk down memory lane. It's set in North Carolina, and several of the characters went to UNC, which is my alma mater,

Krisserin

I love that. All right.

Alli

to meet you.

Krisserin

Ali, we're so excited to have you on the pod. We know that you're a listener 'cause I see your comments on our content all the time on Instagram, and I really, we really appreciate and love it. And we're so excited that you slid into our DMs so that we could talk about your incredible book, which we both have.

Alli

am so happy. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Kelton

Ali, I was just telling Krisserin in our intro that a lot of the people in this book went to UNC. That's like a thread in the... It's set in North Carolina, um, so much so that I even emailed you to be like, "Are you at Tar Heel?" This is feeling like it's striking very close to home.

Alli

Yeah.

Kelton

I'm curious, like, "Too Bless to Stress" explores the worlds of, like, Christian influencer culture, mega churches, and, like, real curated social media perfection. Is this

Alli

Mm-hmm.

Kelton

write-what-you-know book? Like, how did this squirrel into your brain? Because it seems like you knew a lot of these people quite well.

Alli

It's so funny 'cause it- I knew nothing. I knew nothing. This book is the antithesis of write what you know. This book is, really an exercise in everybody who knows and loves you, and h- has, has anticipated you, hopefully, achieving your dream of being an author for your whole life, at you and saying, "Is this really the first book that you wrote? Because this doesn't make any sense." Like, why? Um, this is a book that really kind of flies in the face of all of the advice that we've been getting about not being on social media because I got to know these girls parasocially. it was peak lockdown. I was halfway through my MFA. It was before I had a human child, so way more time on my hands. I had written a very bad book in the first year of my MFA. Um, was just kind of like seeing what the algorithm was going to give me, and I saw a video of this beautiful young woman talking about just, like, being hot and modest. And I was like, Oh, whoa."

Krisserin

Oh, is this the, like, how do you do makeup in a God-fearing way? Is that, remember that?

Alli

Literally. And I was like, "Oh, I'm unfamiliar with this." Like, I'm half Jewish. My dad is Christian. My son goes to a Jewish school now. Like, none of this has... Like, this... I'm from Pennsylvania. I lived in New York. I went to school in DC. None of this has anything to do with me. But I was just as, I think, really, as a journalist, like, fascinated because I was seeing hundreds, thousands of follows and comments on this woman's content. And then, of course, because the algorithm, I started seeing all of these videos, and I realized that there was an entire community of influencers, of content creators who were talking not only about, like- Modest hotness, but also birth control and politics and being subservient to men and dating for marriage and makeup and jeans and how to score a great deal on a cool outfit. And I was like, "Hmm, it seems really important that this is happening and that a lot of people, especially young women, young girls, are following and engaging." So I just kind of became obsessed, developed parasocial relationships with a lot of women, um, talked about it all the time. Really started to drive my husband nuts. was like, "I just don't care that much. Like, I love you, but I don't, I'm just not that interested in these women." and when it came time to start the second year of my MFA and to figure out what my thesis and, like, maybe my first book was going to be, I was like, "Maybe this is where I need to channel all of that weird knowledge that? I have picked up over the last year of obsession with this community," and that's what I did.

Kelton

It's funny that hearing your partner say that, like, he just doesn't care because the men in the book also feel really secondary. Like, even though

Alli

secondary.

Kelton

like, key roles in these women's lives, this book is about women. And I, I think it's, you know, it's easy when you hear that a book is a satire and about religious women that you would think it would either be, like, very dismissive of them or very cynical. But I found it-- I mean, I think this word is top of mind just because I read this book, but it feels like you gave them a lot of grace. Um, and you painted, like, very full pictures of them, and I... Even though it was, like, a satirical read, like, it felt very generous. Like, what did you want to capture about them?

Alli

Well, here's the thing, is that I, I knew logically as I was getting to know these content creators parasocially, there were so many things that I fundamentally disagreed with them about politically, socially. I knew all of that, and yet I really liked a lot of them, and I was curious about them, I kept coming back for more. And I also did a lot of personal reflection about some things that had happened in my personal life, and realized that I had kind of like stumbled into relationships with a lot of people who were part of these, like the Pennsylvania virgin version of megachurches. I stumbled into their orbit when I was a teenager and I didn't know it. I was just, like, drawn to them. so I reflected a lot on those friendships and on those people and why they, they were so wonderful and are so wonderful and, and became my friends. And it was important to me in writing the book that I, I not sort of nitpicked the characters social stances or political stances. was pretty confident that the smart readers that I knew would find my book would be able to read between the lines about a lot of that stuff. But I wanted these to be women that were clearly well-intentioned, clearly believe the things that they say they believe, that clearly believe that the things that they are doing are right. I wanted them to be characters that women that I know in real life, who are not part of megachurches by any stretch, could relate to, who I would enjoy spending all this time with writing. But I wanted the system that they were a part of, like the system is the problem. and so I really tried to approach them with a lot of generosity. It's funny because I didn't set out to write a satire, and then Kiley Reid called it a satire, and I was like, "Okay, you're right. It's totally a satire. If Kiley Reid says it's a satire, then sure, call it that." But I really used the phrase social commentary, which feels a little bit more gentle. And these women are not perfect. I don't pretend that they are, I was trying to view them as like full characters as I would characters in any other book that I would write, as I do the characters in the other books that I am writing. And so I kind of had to come to them from that place. Probably less generous with the men, as you said, 'cause they are totally secondary and really not that interesting in this book. but and I say that as the person who wrote about them. But Yeah. that was kind of my approach to them. I, I had to find ways into them, that allowed me to like find the commonalities and not just see the differences.

Kelton

Yeah. Yeah, I think if I'd read, social commentary as the description of this book, I probably would've had, less resistance. Like, when I was looking at this book, I didn't know anything about it. I just saw, her-- The fingernails on the cover have, little crosses on them, and I was like, "Oh no, am I gonna like this?" And then I loved it. But it's like that, a lot of that packaging is out of your hands, you know? And, like, you had to put a lot of faith in your, your agent, your publisher, your readers to know what this book is going in. Like, how did you approach that?

Alli

The packaging is really tough, and I'm glad you brought this up because, Okay, so there's the illustrated... I'm, and I'm looking over here 'cause I'm looking at my cover, which I have over here on my windowsill. there's the illustrated cartoon cover trend of it all, which I personally am like kind of sick of as a reader. Um, I don't really remember what covers were so many of them were these cartoon illustrated covers. our, our mutual friend Olivia Menter of course has like a very different kind of cover, but that's like a particular kind of like suspense read.

Kelton

Mm-hmm.

Alli

I think if you're writing anything on this sort of contemporary fiction spectrum, book clubby spectrum, either get a cover like mine or you get a cover with, like, a single kind of vague image. I had a feeling that I was going to end up with an illustrated, cover. I was worried, to be honest, because has always been important to me that the book be taken seriously and that the characters be taken seriously and that while, yes, I think read one way, the book is this really fantastic beach read. It's quick. The characters are engaging. It's a good story. There's some funny moments, like if you like reading about social media and pop culture and that kind of thing, there's certainly a lot in it for you. I intended to write it in a voice that felt a little bit more elevated and literary because I think so often subject matter like this is brushed aside as silly and really as, like, the domain of women, which, like, doesn't that always happen, right? Like, tabloid culture used to be brushed aside as silly, and, like, all of these things that are really to primarily women are laughed at and viewed as unimportant. But when you look at the, for lack of a better word, influence that characters like mine have in the real world, they're not just influencing what we buy, they're influencing quite literally, like, what we believe, how we vote, and all of these other things. And so I wanted to lend some real importance to the story while making it an engaging and compelling read. And it's really hard to capture that in a cover that is also just going to be, like, fun to pick up on a table at the bookstore, and it's hard to communicate that to a publishing team, no matter how, h- no matter how much they know what they're doing because they do. Like, I was like, "Right, but I want my book to also be read by... I don't want just people who want a beach read to pick up my book. I also want, like, really interesting and smart to pick up my book, and I want women who live in places that are completely divorced from this kind of community to pick up the book and, and feel like they're learning something and starting interesting conversations." So that was hard. It's, it's a, it's a tough marketing and positioning question that I'm still... I'm so happy with where the cover landed, and I think that given kind of where the industry is as far as trends and what sells, like, it is absolutely, like, the best place it could be, and I really, like, fought hard for a couple of details that I think set it apart. Um, but I'd be lying if sometimes I still wasn't like, but did we find the kinds of readers? Are we finding the kind of readers yet I really wanted to find the book? Which is why I love, I have loved doing events. I love having conversations like this because There's so much more context to it that... And I think this is true of any book, right? Like, how do you communicate all of the context of a book

Kelton

Yeah.

Alli

a cover? Um, but I think the social commentary aspect makes it a little bit trigger- trickier, especially because we are all living in this, like, social media Secret Lives of Mormon Wives world. It's very easy to make assumptions about what my book is about or what It's trying to say based on the cover.

Kelton

It's interesting 'cause it, with the TV shows especially, they're s- they're positioned as voyeuristic. it is sort of like watch and have a laugh. It is not so much like watch and find your faith. And I find that, like, with books it's a really different positioning in general. So I thought about that? a lot while I was reading this

Krisserin

Yeah.

Alli

Thank you. Yeah, it's been a tough, it's been a tougher thing for me to figure out. I'm sorry, Krisserin, I

Krisserin

No, I was gonna ask you, like, who, who is, who is your audience? Like, who are you hoping is gonna pick up this book and read it? Because I feel like there's probably two different groups. There's the people who are "The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives" watchers who are... And that, that is, I feel like, a really, ungenerous view of that group of women's lives because there's so much drama and pain and heartache that happens on that show as a watcher of that show. And then there are the people who probably follow these Christian influencers. And I will say, as someone who works in digital marketing and writes contracts to work with influencers, they're the ones you want to work with because their audience is highly engaged and will buy whatever they tell them to buy. They're really good at selling things and really good at selling their lifestyle. So,

Alli

Yeah.

Krisserin

I, I think that- pinning it as a satire is hard because then it, I think, puts a lot of women who might look up to those women, on the defensive. Like, don't criticize my beliefs, don't criticize my life. So yeah, I'm curious who are you hoping is gonna pick the book up?

Alli

It's been such a hard line to walk, and when I wrote the book, and even when... I, I, maybe when we sold the book, maybe right around when we sold the book, the announcement about Secret Lives of Mormon Wives had come out, and so MomTok was entering the conversation. We were starting to get comfortable with this overlap between social media and conversations about faith. That was not happening when I signed with my agent. For example, like she said, "Just so you know, like this might be a tough sell because of the religion aspect." And of course, now we kind of take that for granted. Um, but when there was all of this buzz building around The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, which has of course yielded really like a cultural phenomenon a few years in, I was like, "Okay, great, so this is a great marketing opportunity." And so, um, you know, of course, understandably, my publisher has included The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives as a comp in all of the promotional copy for the book and, It's something that comes up? often in the conversations that I have about it. it's tough because my book is not Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. First of all, influencers are not LDS members, which is fundamentally different. And while, yes, there is some juicy stuff happening in the book, it's not racy, which was very important to me. I actually set some, like, really specific boundaries as I was writing about, like, what I would and wouldn't do to make it salacious. Because if I had made it salacious, this book probably would have sold for a lot more money, and it would have sold a lot sooner. So to your point, it's like, yes, there is this audience of people who I'm sure have picked it up because they are seeing it comped to Secret Lives of Mormon Wives drawn in by the cover because it is reminiscent of things that they're seeing on social media. yeah, that's like, it's sort of a convenient of timing. I couldn't have predicted that, and I'm really grateful that this cultural thing has happened in the zeitgeist and opened up new space for people to find the book. But I think there is this other audience that I hope finds it, which is... Well, maybe there's two. I mean, I think there is this, like, thoughtful, maybe more, like, questioning audience that we were talking about, like people who are skeptical, and wanna have, like, the harder conversations maybe about, like, the politics, about the cultural implications of this stuff. And quite frankly, I, I would love for people from the religious community to read this book. Kelton, you were saying before, and I appreciate this, that it doesn't feel, like it's attacking. My intention was never to punch down, which is why it's hard that the word satire is such an easy, word to use in marketing. Like, I understand

Kelton

But I think

Alli

it,

Kelton

the satire isn't about their faith. The satire is about the capitalism. Um, and like that was something that, you know, back in when I did go to UNC, um, when I first, uh, in my first couple weeks of freshman year and they have rush, I was like, "Oh, What a fun way to make friends. Like a sorority seems like a fun thing to do I'd never even been to the South before going to school there.

Alli

wow.

Kelton

um, you know, on the second day of rush, the instructions in the booklet were t- you had to wear Lilly Pulitzer. And I didn't even... I was like, "What is Lilly Pulitzer? Who is she?"

Alli

Yep. Great.

Kelton

and

Alli

this Lily,

Kelton

yeah, who's Lilly? Like what am

Krisserin

What do you mean you have to... They gave you... Sorry, I w- I was in a sorority.

Alli

Yeah.

Krisserin

I did not have instructions on what to wear.

Kelton

Yeah, no, there was a

Alli

instructions.

Kelton

a whole booklet, and every day it was a different designer. Um, and I, I, that second day was like, "Well, I can't afford a Lilly Pulitzer dress." Like, I can't even the next step of this rushing. And so a lot of that-- And not to say that all of UNC's rush is religious, it certainly isn't. But a good share of those, um, Southern girls who rush have grown up in the faith and in communities like this one, and they are built around, like, a certain keeping of your aesthetic. And that I felt like was a lot of what this book talked about, is, like, maintaining an image not only for yourself and for the church, but for your social media feed. And that to me was where the satire w- was really pushing and really interesting. Uh, and so I really, I enjoyed that, um, because I also, I participate in social media, and that you wanna look a certain way in order to get a, like a certain amount of views. 'Cause it's like if you kinda look like a slob, then you have to characterize your content as slobby in order for it to succeed in a way. and So I, I think that that is where your satire element is its strongest, um, and your characters are just, like, navigating a system that is sort of forced upon them. And a lot of them, you know, your-- I loved your character Kristen because she's, she's coming from the perspective of like, "Well, I don't, I can't, I can't just go out and buy all this stuff. So how do I fit in with this group where literally when they take a photo of us, I am visibly different than these other people?"

Alli

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think that this is actually the first time I've thought about this, but, like, I, I think if I kind of project each of the four main characters, each of the perspective characters, like, into real world humans, like, each of those women represents, like, a different kind of audience for the book. And Kristin is somebody who I think if the Kristins of the world would really feel, like, seen by the fact that this is a book that highlights how hard it is that we put this kind of pressure on ourselves, all of us to a certain degree. and then on the other side of the spectrum, there's like a Cam, for example, who is really just in it more than the other girls, I would say. who, as I said before, like, she genuinely believes everything that she says she believes, and she thinks she's doing it for all the right reasons. And I would love women in the real world who feel that way to read the book and just, like, I don't know, maybe... I mean, I would love to talk to them about it. I almost would like them to read the book just so we can chat. And it was funny, I did one book event probably the week after the book came out, and this one young woman came up to me after and she was like, "I skipped Bible study to be here." And I was so happy. I was like, "I hope that you all read it, and I can't wait to hear what you think." And she did DM me, and she said that she loved it and that she'd share it around. And so I have heard from some of those women who either are still part of really kind of intense faith communities or grew up in them. Um, and it's been really interesting especially to hear from, from readers who have a background in megachurches and have maybe distanced themselves from it since then and to hear how their experience is mirrored in the book or kind of, like, if they're seeing people?" from their real lives who they've, um, kind of lost touch with, like from distance, what their social media looks like. All of that has been really interesting in terms of who the audience is.

Kelton

Did you always imagine it as a multiple POV story?

Alli

Yeah, so here's the fun fact too. There actually used to be five POVs initially. But I, I love multiple POV books as a reader. My second book Is in a single POV, and it was so much harder for me. So I'm returning to multiple POV for my third book. I loved writing in multiple POV. It broke my heart to have to get rid of one of those perspectives.

Kelton

that character still in the book?

Alli

So the Savannah of the published version of Too Blessed to Stress is a hybrid of two perspectives. So that was probably one of the hardest, like, editorial ch- to that point, it was probably the hardest editorial challenge that I'd ever taken on because I combined character from my first draft who was also named Savannah with another character named Ruthie. Kind of tying those stories together was really scary.

Kelton

origin story then. How did you get your

Alli

so I, I feel like my agent story is not really that interesting, sadly.

Kelton

That's a good thing.

Alli

I guess, I mean, it, I d- it wasn't qui- it's not, it's not uninteresting because it was fast, it's uninteresting just because it was pretty standard. I started querying in September of 2022. And I worked in publishing right out of college for a couple of years, so I kind of understood, and I, and I still, I think this is a benefit, like I, I feel really strongly about timing, in terms of doing outreach to certain people in the industry. So I did my first round of outreach in like September, October. And then knowing what I know about the publishing industry, I was like, "I'm not querying anybody in November, December, or really even January," just because it really does shut down those months, and those are just, like, not great months to catch people. Um, so then I started again in February, March, April, and then I signed with my agent in May, in Yeah. April or May. So I did a couple of sort of waves, um, did a lot of different... I think I was constantly amazed by how many agents I kept finding and how wonderful so many of them were and are. And yeah, I found out that I was pregnant the same week that I signed with my agent, so that's my kind of weird, um, like, parallel life story

Kelton

Yeah.

Alli

two major things happening at once.

Kelton

Two babies.

Alli

Two babies. exactly, yes, and then I went out on submission unbeknownst to me until after. found out that I went out on submission the day my son was born. Like hours after, You know, that you go back, that you're recovering, and then it's a couple hours later and you're like, "Okay, like, I guess I can look at my phone now. He's just sleeping." And, you know, 'cause I was like I, I, "I feel like I shouldn't look at my phone because this major thing has just happened," but at a certain point,

Kelton

You are just sitting there. Yes.

Alli

You are just sitting there. I had been up all night reading Confessions of a Shopaholic on my Kindle, waiting for something to happen, and I was tired, but I couldn't fall asleep, and so I was like, "I, I guess I'll just check my phone," and I had an email from my agent that said, "Congratulations, you're out on submission."

Kelton

That's so funny.

Alli

yeah, so I have some funny little anecdotes about how all of those things played out, too.

Krisserin

So that was like 10 months between signing and going on submission then.

Alli

So yeah, so we did, we did a pretty...

Krisserin

That

Alli

And I think that book two, they're like, "Uh-oh." It's coming. no, so I, I started writing People Please... I actually, my, application sample for my MFA was a very early version of People Please. I had originally conceived of it as a YA novel the time I was j- I was producing a podcast about classic YA books, and I was really spending a lot of time thinking about the YA and middle grade books that had made me into the reader and the person that I am. And so even though I had always thought that I would fiction for adults, I was like, "Well, maybe what's been, maybe my block has been that I should be writing YA." Um, and so I was working on this YA book that I started, um, and used a portion of for my MFA application, and then. I just... I, I think I realized that I didn't want to write YA, but I, I think in doing that initially, I thought I didn't want to write the book. Um, and when it was time to think about what the follow-up to Too Blessed To Stress would be, I realized That there was actually so much potential to rework the idea as an adult book. And now that I knew how to write a book and knew how to write for adults, it made a lot more sense to me, so I pitched that to my agent, and That's where we ran with it. So I was able to, like, rework a lot of what I had started in the YA version, then, um, it ended up being, like, a much richer story when I thought about it for adult readers instead.

Kelton

That's exciting. And That comes out next year, right?

Alli

Yeah, May of 2027, as of right now.

Kelton

already working on your third book?

Alli

Yes, as of very recently. Um, still, it's still very, like, nebulous, but I'm having fun with it. It's nice. It's been nice after being So head-down in Too Blessed To Stress for so long, and then I was working on book two on deadline. I'm still waiting for edits back on my second draft there. It's been nice to just kind of like play again with something different. Like, I think I just missed that creative process, especially because People Please, my second book, was something that I had come up with so long ago. Like, this is the first thing I've really up with fresh in a while, and that feels good, especially because I'm at such a different point in my life now. I think I have a different perspective on things.

Kelton

So what does your, your schedule and your structure look like?

Alli

Well, that's hard because I do have a two-year-old, and I, I, I know from listening to this podcast that that's something that comes up in your lives as well, the chaos of life, of day jobs, of children, of partners, of all of it, and also just, like, there being days that you don't feel like you can do it or that you wanna do it. It depends on really what I'm, what phase of the process I'm in. So right now, because I'm drafting, I really do try to set aside, even if it's just, like, half an hour every day, to do something on the book. so sometimes that's, 100 words, and that's all that I can get out, or if it's a lighter day with my day job, maybe I can go to the library for two hours and knock out closer to 1,000 words. It really does depend. I think when I have been in editing mode, particularly on deadline for the books that I've sold, it's a little bit more challenging because, at least for me, it's harder for me to, like, get into the flow or to actually be productive at that stage when I only have an hour. It, it's... I can't really, like, accomplish much editing or revision in an so I try to set aside more time on the weekends to do that, but it really is just about, like, grabbing whatever time I can, and making, making the most of it. I really am a stickler for, like? keeping track of my word count. For me, that's really helpful. I think that so often people assume that and artists are, don't keep track of those things, and I have spreadsheets. That's what works for me. That's what keeps me motivated and on track. It's really encouraging for me to see progress, even if it's small. so that, I would say, is, like, the most consistent part of my routine, and that's, that's one thing that's stayed with me ever since I started drafting Too Blessed to Stress, through all of the changes in my life, is just I always keeping track of whether it's the word count or if I'm in ed- in an editing stage, like, how many pages, how long am I able to work on the edits in a day. Like, those kinds of metrics help me.

Kelton

I mean, I completely get

Krisserin

Yeah, I love a spreadsheet

Kelton

a word count.

Alli

I love a word count. It's so satisfying.

Krisserin

It is very satisfying. I like your 30 minutes every day, though. I think that that's really nice to, like, commit to doing it every single day. I'm just trying to do three days a week right now and struggling, but I feel like when I am my most productive, it is when I'm doing it every day, like getting up at 5:00 and doing it every day. But that's hard with a two-year-old. It's hard, yeah.

Alli

Well, and, at ti- and then people say, like, "Oh, well, get up before, up before your child." Well, what if your child gets up really early, which mine does,

Krisserin

Yeah.

Alli

and wakes up as if you woke him up, which I did not. He wakes up angry as though he, he didn't

Krisserin

How dare you?

Alli

I'm like, you? don't have to be awake. You can go back to bed at any time.

Kelton

Yeah.

Alli

start for two hours."

Kelton

I'm with you? on that. If I try to wake up before him, he just

Krisserin

Yeah.

Kelton

what I wanted."

Krisserin

No.

Alli

We love them, but we don't need those two extra hours and neither do they.

Krisserin

No.

Alli

Um, he has,

Kelton

Yeah.

Alli

he has a sensor. He knows when I am up. So

Kelton

you

Alli

and I

Krisserin

I agree.

Kelton

one-year-old. Is that true? Or was it more fully formed in your idea?

Alli

no, I actually, this makes me sound like I'm much more productive than I am. It gives it, I- I'm giving myself much more credit

Kelton

amazing.

Alli

then started editing it, 'cause I, I sold it when he was about one and a half. So, um, yeah, it's, it's been interesting 'cause I think at, uh, now I've written these, two books, now I'm starting another one, it's, my

Kelton

Yeah.

Krisserin

I'd be curious to hear how your life has changed and how it stayed the same.

Alli

Oh, interesting. So yeah, I mean, when I wrote Too Blessed to Stress, I was in grad school. I was working full-time too, but I was childless. It was the pandemic. We had just moved to a new city, so I had no friends and was not going to be making friends because I was stuck in the house. It was, my world was very small. I was watching a lot of TV, mostly just hanging out with my husband and writing. It was all very simple. And then of course, People Please I wrote when I was really in the thick of being a new mom. There are pictures, um- me, like, with my son sitting on my lap, and I have my laptop and, and those pictures are, like, very special to me. And of course, I've had to figure out how to, like, balance the two things. but I do love that he, he has been, like, on this journey with me too. And I've had to learn to do two things at once in a way that I didn't know that I could before, but of course, the demands on my time are much different now a child. Um, and then I haven't really talked about this publicly much before, but I'm pregnant with my second right now, and so, uh, so yeah. Now I'm starting the third book, and I don't know... I don't, I d- I just don't know what that's gonna...

Kelton

It's so funny. I--

Alli

I can say is I-- don't

Kelton

Not to be a total weirdo, but as soon as you signed on, my brain was like, "She's pregnant."

Krisserin

No.

Kelton

And that's like the fourth time that's happened in the last two weeks when

Krisserin

Kelton. Kelton's a witch though, so you have

Alli

like that too.

Krisserin

to

Kelton

It's like maybe I just

Alli

witch

Kelton

I'm still breastfeeding, I still have like the pheromones pumping, and I can see it in the collagen

Krisserin

You

Kelton

in your face.

Alli

Oh, am I glowing? I don't feel like I'm

Krisserin

are glowing.

Kelton

of the glow.

Krisserin

your skin looks great.

Alli

I have really nice lighting in my office. So yeah, I really, I don't know what to expect this next go around. I think some ways, maybe I'll feel like I know more of what I'm doing, and then in some ways, there will be even more chaos. So yes, every book process has been very different, will continue to be very different, and what's stayed the same, I think, is really, like, my love of, of reading. I was just listening to your episode this week, your episode from this week this morning, and you were talking quite a bit about the way your reading informs your writing process, related to it so much because, I have my MFA and I, like, had the chance to really, like, be immersed in fiction writing in that program, but nobody ever sits you down and is like, "Well, this is how you write a book. Like, this is how you design a character. This is how you write dialogue." For me, at least, the MFA was really just about structure and community and getting my butt in gear to do it. But the way I've learned to write books is through reading books, and, I think so much of it is absorbed through osmosis, and so it's so hard sometimes to maintain your writing time when your life gets more complicated, but I've just always loved to read so much that I think my, my love of reading has, like, just kept me in it and, has reminded me of why I love doing this so much, and it's continued to, enrich what I hope is my own evolving- Voice and, and way of writing, and I, I hope that I'll always have that.

Kelton

Do you have writing community now?

Alli

I do. It's... So I, I, um...

Krisserin

make friends?

Alli

you when

Krisserin

Did you make friends?

Kelton

friends now?

Alli

make friends. I do. Good news, everyone, I have some friends. have a couple of friends, but making friends as an adult is really

Krisserin

Plug

Alli

That's the headline of this episode., I know everybody's really tired of hearing that, but it's true, very hard. But I do have some writing friends. I have one or two really close friends from my MFA program, one of whom has a debut novel coming out from the same imprint as To Less Distress imprint at the end of May. I have to shout it out, Night

Krisserin

it.

Alli

by Eli Raphael.

Krisserin

Nice.

Alli

so good. It's Gothic, boarding school, culty, beautiful prose. Highly recommend, and the cover is gorgeous. So get yourself a copy of that. Pre-order it. And then I spent years producing and hosting my own book podcast, and so through that, And I was thinking about the two of you actually while I was out on my walk this morning, and how you're continuing to build your own writing community just by, like, putting yourself out there and meeting authors and attracting people with the amazing content that you're putting out there. Like, having a podcast is really hard. It's exhausting. It's amazing, and it's rewarding, so hard. It's so time-consuming, especially because nobody is making you do it, so you're like, "I don't have to..." There, there would be times that my husband was like, "Well, you don't have to do this." But I was meeting such amazing authors, and so I feel really lucky that a lot of the authors that I met through my podcast who are further ahead in the journey than I am, have become my friends and supporters. So the internet is not all bad. You do meet really cool people. We have to have limits,

Krisserin

not all bad.

Alli

great people, too.

Kelton

a new podcast with friend of our podcast, Abby Wolf.

Alli

I do. Yes. Abby Wolf. is also a fan of yours. We're on hiatus right now, but we're coming back. And

Krisserin

Yeah.

Alli

Yeah. Yeah. it's nice. It's nice to have a minute.

Krisserin

I, I was thinking about what you were saying about how you learned so much of your-- of how to write by reading, and the way that I think about-- 'cause I feel the same way, too, and I feel like a lot of how I've learned to write has been very intuitive. It's almost like becoming a dancer. It's you read so much that by the time you sit down to write, it's like you can feel the way the music is moving and how your body should respond to it. I really relate to that, and I think that it's the best advice that I've ever gotten is just to be a good writer, you do have to read a ton. But then I think also you have to write a lot of really bad stuff to get there. So your first bad book that you wrote in MFA was, uh, you know, everything moves you forward. But I am really curious about the MFA program at Temple. Fun fact, um, when I was in college, I had a bunch of friends who were on the Temple gymnastics team, so I ended up, like, staying with them one summer before we went and, taught at gymnastics camp, 'cause I used to... I was a camp counselor in the Poconos, so I spent some time

Alli

Oh.

Krisserin

in the Poconos.

Alli

far from the Poconos.

Krisserin

Oh yeah, the camp's in, East Stroudsburg, so...

Alli

Oh, I know East Stroudsburg,

Krisserin

Oh,

Alli

Okay.

Krisserin

um, but I'm just-- Yeah, I, I, I'm really curious how you found the Temple, MFA program and l- what you feel like outside of just your community, the most valuable thing you got out of it.

Alli

So Lismore is really what brought me there. I had decided at the begi- I guess in mid-2019, like maybe this is when we're finally going to talk about the MFA thing, because I always knew that I wanted to write a book, but I had found my... And I think you might both relate to this, like I'd find, I'd found my way to writing professionally in all of these other ways, and it meant that I was never actually just writing fiction. It had been years since I'd written anything creative. I think I tried to do NaNoWriMo one month in my early tw- one year in my early 20s, and it. was a huge disaster, and then I never tried to write another story again. And, I was on the verge of turning 30, and I had gone through this really tough year where there was a series of just terrible things going on in my personal life. Uh, I, I was told later that like, "Oh, maybe it's your Saturn return." And I was like, "Okay, cool, but if my Saturn could just stop returning, that would be awesome, because this is the worst year ever." Um, and I just decided, like maybe this is, maybe this is the world telling me- You have to, you either have to decide that you're gonna commit to doing this, or maybe that dream isn't gonna happen, and that made me really sad. my husband and I had been talking about moving out of New York, which was heartbreaking, but we were looking at smaller cities, and Philly was nearing the top of the list, especially because it's not far from where we grew up. And I happened to be researching programs, and I saw that Liz Moore was there, which was such a shock because I had never heard about the program before. And, to be fair, I was not, like, applying, like, I didn't apply to Iowa. I didn't apply to all of these huge MFA programs. For me, it was really about having the experience, having the structure, and knowing that I could do it. I had quite literally never been in a workshop before. I didn't know what a workshop was. There's all this talk about workshop, and I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course." And then I was in the program, and I realized that I was gonna have to share work on a regular basis, and I, I had not known what a... I was so naive about all of this stuff. but Liz Moore had just come out with Long Bright River, and the fact that she was having this kind of commercial success was, of course, very compelling to me. and so I figured I'd give it a shot. I was accepted. It ended up being much more online than expected because of COVID, and then Kylie Reid came, uh, on as a visiting faculty member, which was the dream because she had just come out with Such a Fun Age, and I, as much as I admire Liz Moore, I am not a suspense writer. I'm not a mystery writer, and so to have somebody like Kylie, who I felt writes in the kind of voice that I really aspire to and writes the kinds of books that I hope to write, it just felt like it had all been meant to be. And so that was a really lucky thing, and having Liz and Kylie as resources there, I cannot, cannot overstate how much that meant. But it really, for me, it was about the structure. Like, I, I wasn't, I was a grown-up in the program at the time, you know. It was a lot, because of the timing of it being in 2020, it was a lot of, brand-new grads who had gone through the English program at Temple and, like, were living at home because it was COVID and understandably weren't really sure what to do next. I was one of the few who, I was working full time. But I needed somebody to basically hold me accountable to figure out how to write again. I needed somebody to encourage me to share my writing. I don't think I knew that I needed that part so much because I'm a perfectionist, and it was really scary to be getting feedback when I hadn't even written fiction in years. But I, but I did it, and it was, um, it was important for me to be reminded that I like doing it and that I'm good at it. It was really meaningful to get good feedback, not only from my peers but from my teachers. And, um- Yeah, I, I think the MFA conversation is a complicated one and an interesting one. I think if you do it, it ha- you have to know exactly why you're doing it, and I knew that I needed it really as, like, a kick in the butt to either just start writing or I just knew I wouldn't do it otherwise. Like, I was... There were too many other things going on.

Krisserin

It's a great way to get unstuck, I guess you would say. Yeah.

Alli

Yes, totally.

Krisserin

I think that's partially why I'm kind of in this weird, um, stage right now 'cause I know I'm starting my program in July, so I'm like, "Maybe I'll just wait and just see." Although I do owe Kelton a first draft by the end of the summer, so gotta get on that.

Alli

I just love how you have each other, though, for that structure too. Like, I think that that is, finding that. structure somehow is so important, and I think it's great that you're starting your program too, but the fact that you have not only each other, but now this, like, whole community of listeners to hold you accountable for these goals that you set every week, like, that is also so beneficial, because it doesn't just happen, right? Like, I think we, we get this idea that creative work and writing specifically is this whole, like, heady process, right, that happens up here, and you have to be creative, and you have to be in the right mindset. But it, it ultimately is just, like, it's a physical practice. It's, like, sitting down writing, which is much less interesting and romantic, but figuring out a way to, like, make that happen, it is, I think that's how you get it done, and you just have to reiterate that process depending on, like, if you're adding kids, if you're adding jobs, if you're a- whatever it is, like, just rethinking that process over and over again, which is exhausting, but I think that's really what it's about.

Krisserin

You almost have to romanticize it in your brain. You almost have to be like, "I have this whole life that's just for me, where I'm gonna sit down and work on this, and no one else gets to enter my little bubble." You almost have to make it th- But it is so unromantic when you are doing it.

Alli

Right.

Krisserin

you're just like,

Alli

You have to get in the chair

Krisserin

get in the chair and fight exhaustion, and know you're gonna be tired the rest of the day. It's just... Yeah. But I appreciate you saying that. There is an element of this podcast that Kelton and I both feel where if we show up every week and we're like, "I didn't do shit this week," it's gonna be really annoying. People are gonna be like, "Why am I listening to this?" So there is, there does feel a l- there is pressure.

Alli

to

Krisserin

Oh, you're very sweet.

Alli

people would keep listening to you anyway, but, um,

Krisserin

Thank you for saying that.

Alli

it as a tool. I do. I really do. I would keep listening to

Krisserin

Thank you, Ali.

Kelton

in a while, people love, uh, a little company in their misery.

Krisserin

That's true.

Alli

Yes.

Kelton

to be like, "They didn't get anything done either."

Alli

Yeah, we need it. We just need to be reminded that it's not just

Krisserin

Yeah. And it's... And you know what? The seasons really have an impact 'cause it, for... That's why we go on hiatus in the summer because Kelton and I, we just, we g- we travel and spend time with the... There's that mom guilt of like, "Okay, my kids are not in school. I need to spend some time with them." So,

Kelton

that yet.

Krisserin

oh, you'll get...

Alli

Yeah,

Krisserin

You guys are in it.

Alli

my s- my son goes to camp, but it's really just preschool. That's, it's all the same thing. But eventually, I guess he will not be in school in the summer, and then I, then it's the choice of does he go to camp or do I... It's tough. It's,

Krisserin

Summer camp is great. I sent my kids to summer camp almost, every summer. This summer we're not doing it because I just couldn't be bothered to be proactive enough to sign them up for anything.

Kelton

how do

Krisserin

But when my kids were your kids' age, I, their preschool had summer camp, and then it was really fun. Each week had a theme, and there was a lot of, water play. And they'd have a great time. It's fun.

Alli

what Will has. They have a huge water slide. He gets to wear tie-dye every Friday. It's the best.

Krisserin

Sounds like a dream. Uh, can I go? Can I go to summer camp?

Alli

feel.

Kelton

wanna,

Krisserin

water slide? Sign me up.

Alli

yeah.

Krisserin

Well, speaking of, being a voracious reader, we have to ask you about your top three books. I know.

Kelton

all time. Could be all time, could be top of mind, could be on your nightstand. What are the three books that are top of mind right now?

Alli

Okay, so I'm currently reading Love by the Book by Jessica George. I'm only about 100 page- pages in. Have you, have you heard about it or read it? Okay, so she wrote Maame a few years ago, which got a lot of attention, and it's a book about fractured friendships in your 30s, so I'm reading it not only for fun, but also for research because I think it's a great comp for my new book. But I'm really loving it so far. It's about this woman in her 30s, Remi, who just had her, like, breakout bestselling book, come out, and it is a book inspired by her friendships with f- with three other women that have been in her life for a long time. And as she is struggling to write her second book, essentially, like, all three of her friends enter new phases of their lives and are no longer around to, like, inspire her and, um, sort of like continue with story that she wrote in the first book. So it's about but it's also about friendship and just this weird time that happens when everybody's lives are changing at the same time. Um, my all-time favorite book, although it is imperfect as hell, is Prep by Curtis Sittenfeld. I've reread it many times. Um, I don't think I will ever stop

Kelton

A

Alli

it or talking about it or telling people that they should read it if they haven't read it yet. And I will never stop singing the praises of Kylie Reid, not only because she was a great mentor to me, but if you, if you wanna write dialogue and, and really get at the heart of, like, how weird it is to be a person, which really is what is about, like, she taught me that being a good writer is not just about being able to put words on the page that sound pretty, but it's about being a student of hu- of human behavior and of, like, observing the strange way we talk to each other and, like, how weird it is to talk about things like money and class and our backgrounds. Like, she's the best at it, and so, I will always shout out her books, and I loved Come and Get It, and it made me laugh very hard, but Such A Fun Age is, of course, classic Kylie, and I, am eagerly awaiting whatever she comes out with next.

Krisserin

I, I'll have to read that. It sounds amazing, yeah. I, I mean, I pers- uh, here's the reason I like to have a podcast, because we get to have these intimate conversations with people.

Alli

Yeah.

Krisserin

you, we get to skip the small talk and we get to talk about the things that are important. But writing it is hard because those conversations don't happen in everyday life. A lot of people just wanna be at the surface level, and I'm like, "Get me, get me to the bottom. Let's talk about real stuff."

Alli

Big talk, no small

Krisserin

Big talk. Well, Ali, it was so nice to have an hour of big talk with you. It-- I'm so happy we got to do this. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Kelton

podcast...

Alli

so glad. I'm so glad that you started doing authors as guests so that I could come on. This has been such a treat.

Kelton

And this will come out on Monday, May 11th, and I think you have a couple events that week. Do you wanna shout anything out?

Alli

do. Yes, I'm thinking through what events I have next week. So on Tuesday, May 12th, at 7:00, am doing a book club with a Barnes Noble in Devon, Pennsylvania, which is not far from Philly. If you live in the area, it'll just be a fun book club-style chat. And then on Wednesday, May 13th, I will be in Brooklyn at Threes Brewing from 7:00 to 9:00 in conversation with Emma, who is the host of the Ghosted By Grief podcast. We'll be talking about the book, and then the event is hosted by Front Paige Media, Paige, P-A-I-G-E. Um, and she does, like, bookish events and bookish community, and so after the conversation, she always does some kind of, like, a cool, like, crafty activity. So we'll be at Threes in Brooklyn at 7:00 on Wednesday, and I'm really excited because I spent most of my adult life in New York, so I will take any excuse to get back there. This will be my second event there. And all of the details are at my website, www.allihoffkosik.com.

Krisserin

Yeah, tell everyone where they can f- follow you and where they can buy Too Blessed to Stress.

Alli

Yes, you can buy Too Less to Stress wherever books are sold. I, of course, will always encourage shopping with indie bookstores. If you don't have one in your neighborhood, you can

Krisserin

Great.

Alli

on Instagram. I am on Substack. if you wanna check out the fun, chatty podcast that Kelton mentioned earlier, it is called Is This a Thing? And we should be back in the next couple of weeks.

Krisserin

I can't wait to listen. Now, final question: Do Kelton and I sound alike?

Alli

Yes.

Kelton

Oh,

Alli

you would

Kelton

No.

Alli

that.

Kelton

Oh, no.

Alli

that. Yes,

Kelton

And we're even like

Krisserin

Indistinguishable.

Alli

Yes. I'm

Kelton

That's so bad.

Krisserin

bad. I feel like we sound so d- My mom disagrees, by the way, but of course she would. Yeah.

Alli

sound very similar. I'm sorry.

Krisserin

podcast host to podcast host, what can we do?

Alli

Hmm.

Krisserin

we do to be more distinguishable?

Alli

I mean, you're talking to a podcaster who has a very weird and oddly specific and cartoonish voice, so I really... I... It's hard for me to say that I have advice for you. Maybe one of you should start drinking, like, a lot of milk or something before. Like, doesn't that do something to your voice? I don't know, but

Kelton

just harken back to my North Carolina days, and I'll put on a little Southern affect, and we'll

Alli

I'm not upset that I can't

Kelton

just say, "Too bother."

Alli

the difference. Um, but you... It's just... You... It's a, has a very similar tone. It's

Kelton

Oh.

Alli

nice,

Krisserin

need a catchphrase or something.

Alli

th- I, I wouldn't worry

Krisserin

Okay.

Alli

sound the same.

Krisserin

Damn. We're so different, that's the thing. I would think that, like, what we talk about, people would be like, "That's Kelton, she's talking about her baby. That's Krisserin, she's encouraging one. Kelton's the pessimistic one."

Kelton

you can be like, "Oh no, now I know who's talking."

Krisserin

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Alli

It... Once you start talking, I know who's who. Um, but at... Yes. it takes me a second when a new episode starts, 'cause you're both K names. You have similar voices. I like it,

Krisserin

Okay.

Alli

I wouldn't... I don't think you need to change a

Krisserin

All right. Well, we'll t- I'll, uh, that's encouraging.

Alli

Yes.

Kelton

Thanks very

Alli

doing.

Krisserin

so much, Ali.

Kelton

you. This book was great. Thanks so much.

Krisserin

Yeah, I'm gonna recommend it to my really good friend who's, very Christian. I'm going on a, on a girls trip and I'm gonna bring everyone a book, so I'm gonna give this one to her. And I... She's, she's,

Alli

I'll be anxious to hear what she

Krisserin

All right, Ali, it was so nice to meet you. Thank you so much. And happy writing. We'll tell you happy writing.

Alli

happy writing. to you. Thank you so much. I am always cheering you on.

Krisserin

We appreciate it. All right, Kelton.

Kelton

Krisserin Well this for me was a very classic case of do not judge a book by its cover cause I really enjoyed this book and it was a fast read And even though I don't have organized religion in my life you know it's like these characters were fun to spend a few days with and it's like she said it's such a interesting social commentary on capitalism and influencers and the the ways that women have to their lives So I'm glad I read it

Krisserin

A lot of relatable themes, and I really, you know, a, a good book is not gonna be one that's gonna take a character and just make, like, completely satirize their whole belief system and way of life. So I'm not surprised that she took a lot of care with these characters, because you do end up, like, you, you, you love your characters when you write them. The good ones, the bad ones, you have to really see them as fully formed people, and if you were to write them in a one-sided way, I don't think it would work. I don't think anyone would wanna read that. So

Kelton

Yeah

Krisserin

props to Ali. Yeah.

Kelton

I've been thinking about it all week and you know I was updating my books I read list on my notes app and I have the titles in there but I usually leave a note about what I liked and what I thought and there were a couple books where I was like barely remember it I barely remember what I thought And

Krisserin

Yeah,

Kelton

with me so um I recommend it Too Blessed to Stress by Alli Hoff Kosik You should get it where you get your books and it's it is I think a really good book club read

Krisserin

I can't wait to, to give it to my friend and hear what she has to say about it. Well, Kelton, that was fun. I really do love having these authors on and having these conversation, 'cause it feels like we're making new friends every week when we do it, which is amazing, 'cause as Ali said, it is hard to make new friends as an adult. Yeah.

Kelton

It is

Krisserin

especially when you live out in the middle of nowhere like you do.

Kelton

Yeah although I will say I went to trivia last night with two of my girlfriends

Krisserin

What was your trivia team name?

Kelton

it was Hey Girl

Krisserin

Okay. Hey, girl

Kelton

only afterwards did I suggest a different name but I was late obviously cause I I left a screaming child with a grandparent and so I just was like kind of like dashing in as trivia began but I I I bring that up because it's sort of related to my goals for the week my goal for this week I am gonna write but I'm not gonna put that as my goals My goal for this week is to do three things for myself and so maybe that's like I go get a latte and read for 20 minutes before I start work at the library Maybe that's like I book a class at the new Pilates studio that all my friends love that I think is extravagantly expensive maybe that's going into town to go for a hike I don't know But I just I was really trying to feel motivated from that conversation with Ali but I just I like I said at the top of the call like I'm near emotional collapse

Krisserin

Yeah.

Kelton

that conversation just being like Wow cool Like she wrote a book while she had a baby What have you done I left it like feeling pretty bad about myself which I

Krisserin

No.

Kelton

It's not anything to do with Ali Like I'm a I'm in love with her but I just like I know where I'm at right now and I'm in the dumpster I am in the dumpster and there's no other raccoons in here with me I'm like I'm at the bottom of my personal barrel and so I'm like I need to I need to do some things to take care of Kelton Cause like when I get those sour feelings I'm like something's not right You need to

Krisserin

Yeah.

Kelton

working on the foundation and so writing I'm sure will happen but I think the priority is y I gotta do a little personal caretaking

Krisserin

I'm feeling pretty sour too. When you said that, I was like, "Ooh, I feel exactly the same way." I feel exactly the same way. Sunday's Mother's Day.

Kelton

This something

Krisserin

Yeah, girl.

Kelton

Oh no

Krisserin

I only know 'cause I, have been reminding Boyan for two weeks now. And,

Kelton

Oh

Krisserin

he usually... He, we used to, like, go to Neiman Marcus to buy me, like, a pair of earrings every year, and the Neiman Marcus at the mall closed. So I'm like, "What are you gonna do this year, Boyan?" I've, started to send him links.

Kelton

Ben

Krisserin

So you should...

Kelton

Day present early because I think he could tell that I was having a hard time

Krisserin

Yeah. So I think you have every right to go out and spoil yourself on Sun- like, this weekend. Yeah.

Kelton

Okay

Krisserin

You should do all of those things. There you go.

Kelton

it four things instead of three things because one of these days is built in These are supposed to be special for me not like the calendar says Mom gets a day off

Krisserin

We are gonna... I bought, I planned my Mother's Day. And we're gonna go see The Sheep Detective at the fancy theater in Westlake Village. You haven't heard about this movie? It's really... You would love it. It's really cute. It's about, Hugh Jackman. He lives in a trailer and he's a shepherd, and every night before he goes to bed, he reads his sheep a chapter of a murder mystery novel.

Kelton

Uh-huh

Krisserin

ends up dying, and the sheep, who now can talk, like we can hear them talk, try to help the local authorities solve his murder.

Kelton

Wow this is deeply up my alley I

Krisserin

Yeah.

Kelton

heard of this Is this an original screenplay

Krisserin

It... I don't know. It must be... It's, it comes out on Mother's Day, so last week I bought tickets to go see it on Sunday with my, with my kids and with Boyan, 'cause I was like, "This is what I wanna do."

Kelton

I really miss having a movie theater

Krisserin

Oh, I'm sorry. I know. But you should definitely do those four nice things for yourself, and maybe like go to the one restaurant that's open and have brunch.

Kelton

Yeah thankfully the restaurants are starting to open again

Krisserin

Okay, good. Right.

Kelton

people are coming and they need someone to guide them into the house and mountain pass So I have to go sit up at this house for the afternoon And so I will have my computer but no internet or Wi-Fi so I just I made my novel document available offline and I'm gonna bring my computer up there and I'm gonna write with no connectivity and just waiting for a propane truck in the middle of the woods

Krisserin

Love that for you. Can you please send me a picture while you're doing it so I can like live vicariously?

Kelton

Yes yes I will

Krisserin

Amazing.

Kelton

yeah so I th yeah I think you and I like I can hear it we're both run down

Krisserin

yeah, and I'm-

Kelton

do for yourself

Krisserin

Well, I leave on Monday to go to St. Louis,

Kelton

Okay

Krisserin

and then I'm going to a conference. I'm gonna see my really good friend from college whose three children I have not met, so I'm excited to do that. Yeah. We pole vaulted together at UCLA, and then she transferred to Brown after freshman year. So, I'm gonna do that, and then I'm gonna be at a conference all week, and my social battery is just gonna be, in the in the ground by the end of that And then that weekend I'm going to Zion with my sorority sisters We're gonna... some, half of them, half of us are in the sorority, half of us are just friends from, the dorms at UCLA.

Kelton

Pulitzer not included

Krisserin

No, I mean, I was a Delta Gamma at UCLA. We were doing, like, bong rips and beer, beer funnels. Like, we weren't wearing lily pulitzer at all. Um, sorry. Sorry, Mom. But that'll be, uh We're all so-- We, like, none of us drink now, so it's gonna be a fun weekend. But I just don't know when I'm gonna have any opportunity to do any writing.

Kelton

Yeah

Krisserin

like to find a way to fall back in love with just being in that creative state. I really did get a lot out of that breathwork workshop with Amanda Fletcher, who will be on the podcast, I think it's, like, the 24th is the, when that episode will go live. And I feel like you'll get a, a lot out of that conversation too, Kelton, be-besides, besides the fact that Amanda's just a hoot and so much fun to talk to, and so energetic and amazing, and y- you will be fast friends, I can just tell. So that's my...

Kelton

growth

Krisserin

Oh, gosh.

Kelton

exercises on the podcast

Krisserin

Yeah. Sh- she sent me a link. She's like, "In case you want more on... And I'll send it to you. Maybe that's something that you can try." But I don't know. I don't know, like, I don't... Give me a goal, because I feel so incapable of any type of proactive thought besides, like, all the shit I have to do for my kids and for work right now. Like, my brain is fried.

Kelton

would like you to do one kind of test scene in your middle school love story of characters at the height of like liking each other or engagement or sexual chemistry As a reminder this is about adults who have children in the middle school This is

Krisserin

Yes Yes, yes. There's no s- no middle schoolers having sex in this book.

Kelton

So yeah I But I I Not to have in the book necessarily but to remind yourself what's exciting about those characters have them talk to each other a little bit of dialogue And that could be like 100 words I'm not saying write but bring your characters to life a little in the forefront of your mind so that they stay lively and that it stays fun and exciting

Krisserin

I've literally not thought about that book at all.

Kelton

I know

Krisserin

I

Kelton

That's why I'm like bring That's

Krisserin

I was like, "Not that, not that one, not that book."

Kelton

you asked me for the goal

Krisserin

no, I appreciate it. And, you know, it's not true 'cause I did think about it a little bit. So there is a series which is... And it's not for everyone, but it's Kashiel's Dart. I, I don't know what the name of the series is, but the first book is, is Kashiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey. I love Jacqueline Carey, by the way. I follow her on all the social networks. She's like this, like, badass older lady who just, pulls no punches online, and I just think she's so cool, and I would love to meet her in real life and be her friend someday. This series is very, um... There's a lot of, very strong sexual themes, and the main character in the book, her whole thing is that she enjoys pain, like pleasure. Like, that's what, kind of like what she's, was built for and trained to do, in this world that has a lot of, like, hedon- and I wouldn't want to call them hedonistic, but, like, sex is, like, a huge part of this world that she built. But then, the main love story, and I don't wanna give it away for anyone, so if you don't wanna hear the spoilers 'cause you plan on reading, just, like, skip this next, like, 30-second rant. The main story is, love story is a forbidden love story. So you have this one character who's, her whole role is around, based around sex and how she uses it. She's also a spy. It's a really good, really good book. But then, there are these servants that are these, like, almost monk-like characters in the book that abstain. Like, they do not have sex. And It takes three books for them to come together 'cause there's this, like, forbidden... Like, you know they love each other, but the love is so much more than sex for-- And in a world built around sex, it's, like, really remarkable and the middle school love story not not to equate it with Jacqueline Carey's incredible world-building at all, is about this forbidden relationship because sh- he's a principal, and she's a mom at the school, and he's in a s- in a strange marriage, and she's getting a divorce, and their kids go to school together. And, so I was just thinking to myself about, like, how much the, yearning is the best part of a love story really, and how to build the yearning into the story and make it feel palpable. And it's through creating a connection that grows that's about- things that are not sex over the period of the book. And so I was trying to think about that and, like, how I was going to do that. So I did think about it. I did think about it a little bit.

Kelton

Yeah

Krisserin

so I like that I like that challenge. Challenge accepted. I will write it down and see if it's something maybe I can do on the plane. I got, like, a five-hour flight to St. Louis, so maybe,

Kelton

Yeah

Krisserin

Yeah, maybe I'll do that. That's... Okay. And I, I wanna bring Unstuck with me, 'cause I feel like maybe that's what I need to do is... So that'll be my goal for the week. Thank you, Kelton.

Kelton

I

Krisserin

Thank you, Kelton.

Kelton

You're welcome Krisserin

Krisserin

All right, friends. Well, listen, if you've made it this far on the podcast, just know that we really appreci- appreciate, appreci-inate, appreciate all of our listeners. Can you tell we're tired? We appreciate all of our listeners, and we love hearing from you. We're getting, like, an email a week, and it just, makes, makes everything so enjoyable. Send your DMs, send your emails. You know where to find us, at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. You can follow us or send us a message @penpalspod on all of the networks. You can read Kelton's writing at shangerlogs.substack.com. You can learn all about her incredible courses at keltonwright.com, and follow her @keltonkin on Instagram. You can follow me @krisserin on TikTok. I haven't really been posting there, to be honest with you. Or writing on my Substack which is krisserin.substack.com. But you know what? I would love to hear how you guys are doing. Are you feeling burnt out? Are you ready for the summer to start? How's writing going? Let us know.

Kelton

Yeah I'd also love to know if you guys would be interesting in a writing community platform with us something where we can all hold each other accountable say what we're struggling with and get ideas from friends If you're interested in that kind of thing I'm thinking about spinning that up for season three

Krisserin

Yeah, I would love, like, an accountabila-buddy matchmaking service. Like, we will match you with someone who will be a good match. We will ask you what your star sign is, and then we'll find someone to match you with.

Kelton

you'll be matched by star signs so get ready

Krisserin

Not only that. Not only that. Lord.

Kelton

be able to

Krisserin

I will say,

Kelton

tell

Krisserin

I will say every- a challenge for everyone is if you have a writing friend that you haven't talked to in a while, and I'm gonna do this, and Kelton, you should too, text them and ask them how writing's going. "Are you writing? How's it going? I'm thinking about you." 'Cause it actually is very inspiring. I've had a friend do it to me recently, and I was like, "Oh, I haven't heard from this person in forever" and then we got to reignite a conversation. So text an old writing buddy, ask them how they're doing. That's your challenge for the week. But until next week, Happy writing.

Head Shot

Kelton Wright

Co-host
Head Shot

Krisserin Canary

Co-host