What Breathwork Unlocks for Writers with Amanda Fletcher

Krisserin and Kelton are running on fumes — sleep-deprived, burned out, and staring down a summer deadline that feels impossible. Enter Amanda Fletcher: writer, breathwork practitioner, PEN Center USA Emerging Voices fellow, and one of the most magnetic people in the Los Angeles literary community. Amanda shares her winding path from born storyteller to mathlete to kinesiology major, and the losses that knocked her off course — including her mother's death by suicide when Amanda was 24. What followed was over a decade of addiction, a broken neck, and eventually the writing classes and recovery community that brought her back to the page. Amanda explains how she discovered breathwork in early sobriety, why she believes our stories are imprinted on our nervous systems, and how the same limiting beliefs that block our creativity can be unlocked through intentional breathing. She guides listeners through a simple breathwork exercise they can use before a writing session, and makes the case that getting unstuck as a writer might start with getting out of your head and into your body.

Follow Amanda:
Instagram: @theamandafletcher
Email: theamandafletcher@gmail.com
Website: amandafletcher.me

Amanda's upcoming virtual breathwork sessions:
Tuesday, June 2 at 6pm PT

Saturday, June 6 at 8am PT

Saturday, June 20 at 8am PT

Saturday, June 27 at 10am PT

Tuesday, June 30 at 6pm PT

Books Mentioned in this Episode:
"The Ogress and the Orphans" by Kelly Barnhill 
"Piranesi" by Susanna Clarke 
"White Oleander" by Janet Fitch 
"The War of Art" by Steven Pressfield 
"A Million Little Pieces" by James Frey 
"Agnes Aubert's Mystical Cat Shelter" by Heather Fawcett

Write to us:
officialpenpalspod@gmail.com

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

0:00

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections and hopefully eventual success from California to Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton 0:14

Hi, Krisserin.

Krisserin 0:16

Good morning, Kelton

Kelton 0:18

How are you?

Krisserin 0:20

Today I am better than I've been in like a week or so. I got a ton of sleep and I, I think yesterday afternoon was the first time that I could just sit down and not have anything to do. So I laid down and slept for four hours, and then I got up and had dinner and then I went to bed at 10:00 and slept until 6:30. I was just so tired. I think I just was very rundown. So I'm feeling better today and, yeah, excited to be here with you

Kelton 0:55

Likewise. I also am feeling marginally better but I'm only gonna give it marginal. So,

Krisserin 1:04

I was thinking about you 'cause I was imagining telling you how much sleep I got, and then I was thinking, "Oh gosh, how much sleep has Kelton got?" Has sleep gotten any better for you?

Kelton 1:17

Uh, um, yeah, a little bit. Uh, the kid is, like, kinda settling into a good rhythm. Uh, and, um, you know, he's-- there's a lot of nights when he's not drinking milk at all after he falls asleep. And that's really magical. But yeah, I'm just not worried about sleep. Like, it's like, it's so out of my control right now that I'm like, "Let's just... I get whatever sleep I get." I'm, I'm not gonna fuss too much about it, even though it seems to be the, the root of all of my problems.

Krisserin 1:54

I was driving home this morning from dropping off my kids and talking to my mom about just general health stuff, and she always is saying that I'm burning the candle on both ends. But she's like, "Yeah, Krisserin, I don't know what to tell you. Everything started falling apart for me at 40." I'm like, "Thanks, Mom. Thanks."

Kelton 2:15

Great.

Krisserin 2:16

It's only downhill from here, Kelton.

Kelton 2:19

I know. I mean, I-- this week I was like, "Okay, it's time to start lifting weights again." Like, you gotta, you gotta get this body back in order. You gotta start prioritizing your long-term capacity over your relatively short-term goals.

Krisserin 2:35

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I actually f-

Kelton 2:39

I did complete some goals this week.

Krisserin 2:41

Did you? I mean, our goals live from last week were very, um

Kelton 2:45

our goals last week were charming and adorable and not related to writing. They were related to recovery, which is

Krisserin 2:51

They were.

Kelton 2:52

which is part of writing.

Krisserin 2:53

That's... This is true. This is true.

Kelton 2:56

So

Krisserin 2:57

what goals did you complete?

Kelton 2:59

I read, um, the first, like, third of "The Ogress and the Orphans."

Krisserin 3:04

Oh, what, what do you think?

Kelton 3:07

I love it. I find it very charming. Uh, the only reason it's taking me so long is because it was only available at my library to check out on OverDrive, to read on my computer, which I

Krisserin 3:20

Ugh. Yeah.

Kelton 3:22

hate reading on it. So it's just taking me a little while. And then I also, I had finally gotten a copy of Piranesi, by Susanna Clarke, and I was reading that book every chance I got. Astonishing. So smart, so clever. Just like a really nice, where you just leave it feeling, so proud of the author Where you're like, "You did a good job. You had a great idea, and you did a good job." So

Krisserin 3:54

You know

Kelton 3:55

to Ms. Clarke. That was an awesome read. I did write a review for Mystical Cat Shelter. I wrote a note on Substack and on Instagram, it's nice to just, like, put out in the world how much I liked that book and tag the author and just give a little warm juju out on a cold day. And then I did do one art project.

Krisserin 4:18

Okay, good. That's lovely. Well, I, what, my goal was to like go to the spa or something and I didn't do that

Kelton 4:25

Your door... Your other goal was a DoorDash feast.

Krisserin 4:28

I did do that, and I actually got an ancient grains tofu bowl and a green juice and it was fantastic.

Kelton 4:33

Whoa.

Krisserin 4:35

You can take the girl out of LA, but you can't take the LA out of the girl. I was like, "Enough with this barbecue and meat in Missouri." I was like, "Give me some, give me some tofu." It was great. It was lovely. And I watched Off Campus on Amazon Prime and I just had,

Kelton 4:54

it.

Krisserin 4:55

I,

Kelton 4:55

clips and I just am like... I, I see all these clips of these like millennial women like, "Need to make sure that the cast is old enough for me to lust after."

Krisserin 5:10

I will say I'm... Okay, well, the, the main actress is, like, very normal-bodied, which is really nice for once. Like, she's got a very normal-sized frame, and she's very... Yeah, it's very nice, um, 'cause, you know, you see these women who are just tiny.

Kelton 5:29

in the land of Ozempia. You

Krisserin 5:32

Yes.

Kelton 5:33

rode a

Krisserin 5:37

over the weekend, which was really beautiful, and we stopped by a... I did. I rode a horse, and it was crazy because, you know, I, from the age of, like, six until I was 11, I was riding horses all the time, and I had, you know, I had a horse, and it's crazy how it just comes back to you. It... Like riding a bike. I got on that horse, and the horse is trotting, and I moved w- with it with no problem. I could control the horse with no problem. I made the mistake of telling them that I had experience riding, and they gave me the, like, most ornery horse in the, in the corral.

Kelton 6:20

Listen, I think that that's-- I think that's the highest compliment for a

Krisserin 6:25

They're like,

Kelton 6:25

happened to

Krisserin 6:26

"You can handle this horse. You can handle this one." I'm like, "Thanks." Yeah,

Kelton 6:30

like,

Krisserin 6:30

yeah.

Kelton 6:31

wait." That to me when I went on my, trip in Montana. They were like, you can have th- this one. This one's a little rowdy." He

Krisserin 6:41

you can have

Kelton 6:42

of water, and

Krisserin 6:44

Oh,

Kelton 6:45

the

Krisserin 6:45

God.

Kelton 6:45

like four times a

Krisserin 6:47

Oh, God. No.

Kelton 6:49

was like, "Here we go."

Krisserin 6:51

Oh, Lord. It, it did make me really want to think about, you know, riding horses more often, and there are a lot of places here where I live, where you used to live, there are a ton of stables and, I'm just not an English rider, and so I need somewhere where they will let me ride Western, but of course I came back and LA's on fire, so there's no going outside to ride horses right now anyway.

Kelton 7:14

Mm. We got our first red flag warning this morning, and I was like, "So it begins."

Krisserin 7:19

Ugh. Yeah, luckily though, the winds aren't that strong right now, so... And, and where I am typically, the wind blows southwest, which is away from my house, 'cause the mountains are just to the west of us, where are a lot of, you know, that's where a lot of fires can start. But then this time the winds have been moving. Like, every half of a quarter of the day they shift and move in the opposite direction, so I'm, and I'm not quite sure what's happening there, but it was a little bit stressful. I'm just very happy to be home in my own bed and looking forward to the end of the school year, and, thinking that finishing a first draft by the end of the summer is gonna be really hard.

Kelton 8:05

So fucking hard. I-- just hearing you talk about stress, I'm so excited about our guest today. I feel like this is perfectly timed

Krisserin 8:13

Mm-hmm

Kelton 8:14

like, out of whack and, like, dried up you and I

Krisserin 8:19

It's so true. It's so true

Kelton 8:21

I-- will you please tell us a little about our amazing guest today?

Krisserin 8:27

Yeah, I'm, I'm just actually so excited for our guest today. Her name is Amanda Fletcher. She's one of my favorite people in the world. She is infectious with her energy and her positivity, and, has had a huge impact on me, just her friendship and her support. She was a 2012 Penn Center USA Emerging Voices fellow, and then she went on to manage the fellowship for five years, so she was putting on all of the events and the readings, and cultivated, a incredible mentorship program, and is a huge part of the Los Angeles writing community as a result. I feel like she knows everybody, and she's so fun to spend time with. We went to EWP together, last year, and she really like... You know, I'm pretty extroverted, but I can just sit back and let her, you know, run the show when we're together, so that's really fun for me. She is also the founder of Halo Holistic Wellness, a personal coaching practice rooted in storytelling, movement, and breathwork, and, she's an active member of the recovery community and a dedicated mental health advocate. So we're really excited to have Amanda on the show, and she's got a great personal story to tell. So without further ado, we'll bring Amanda on Welcome, Amanda.

Amanda she/her/them/us 9:40

Hi. I

Krisserin 9:41

Hi.

Amanda she/her/them/us 9:42

was holding my breath there for a minute, so I was like, "Oh, we're talking about breathwork." It's like... Yeah.

Krisserin 9:49

You know better than that.

Amanda she/her/them/us 9:50

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Krisserin 9:53

Well, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. We would love to start with you just telling us a little bit of your backstory and how you found your way into writing and how you found your way into breathwork.

Amanda she/her/them/us 10:04

Amazing. I started writing, I was probably like nine. I wrote a limerick. It was published in the school paper. I, I speak at one of the... You know how Krisserin and I know each other? Through a writing fellowship. I have visited a classroom for one of the other writers who's a sixth grade teacher, and my story is always like, the first time I was published I was nine, and the next time I was published I was 37, and the kids are all like so shocked by that. but I came from artistic people, like I'm realizing more and more. I think sometimes when you have a really kind of traumatic good stuff can get lost and, and figuring out how to find some balance with that, um, you start to fi- realize that part of how my family survived was that, you know, my grandmother was also a writer. She was-- She published a couple essays in the local paper. she left, my grandfather, packed her eight kids into, I believe it was a milk truck, and I'm gonna say this was like in the '60s, and drove from Ottawa, Ontario to St. Catharines, Ontario, which is like a six-hour drive, and they wrote a song. Like they wrote a good song, my aunt actually sang me the song, like forwarded me a vo- voice memo with the song, and I was like, "Dude, this is actually, really good." But, um, yeah, so, those are the people that raised me. I was always really imaginative. I read so much. Like, I was obsessed with books from a really early age. I read from an early age. Just a born storyteller. And this amazing teacher when I was in the sixth grade, shout out Mrs. Wheeler. And she just really encouraged me to tell stories. It was like, "You know, this is what you're meant to do. This is your calling." And I just loved it so much, but, um, al- always, always a storyteller and an artist, and I think I thought for a while I wanted to go into advertising, and in the ninth grade. I remember being... My stepdad asking me, my, my, my parents are blue collar service industry folks, saying "I think I wanna be in advertising." And my stepdad just told me that that's not a real job. Like, that's... Or if it is, it's like for people who live in New York City. And as much as like, we say, "Do as I say, not as I do," that's not really how it works. We internalize the way that we are treated and the things that we witness. and as much as I was like, "I'll never be like that," like, "I'm not gonna believe that person. That person doesn't know me," I internalized that idea or that concept that creativity wasn't real, it was a hobby, and, literally stopped taking art classes in pro- I think my last art class was in the 10th grade, and then I focused on science. I was a mathlete, such a fucking nerd. Highest grades in my OAC levels in math, got math awards, which is so wild to me because now, like, where did that go? I don't know. do think that the analytical mind, we apply that to our writing. I know you guys are gonna ask me about my memoir. I feel like Krisserin tricked me into coming on the podcast to talk about breathwork, and now we have to talk about my book.

Krisserin 13:19

It's

Amanda she/her/them/us 13:19

But ver-

Krisserin 13:21

you kind of have to talk about your

Amanda she/her/them/us 13:23

I

Krisserin 13:23

Amanda

Amanda she/her/them/us 13:24

talking about writing and breathwork. I always wanted to be a writer, but I didn't think it was real. I didn't think I was allowed. I also question myself constantly. Who do I think I am to do this? My degree is in kinesiology. It's the study of human movement. I thought I was gonna be a physical therapist. I lost my mom to suicide my last year of college, so like I would say that is the thing that kind of sidelined me, but my traject- I was already off course. I was just having a conversation with someone the other day where I was like, I literally did not realize I could change, majors in college. It did not occur to me. So my kinesiology degree, four-year program, we had to do modules of, exercise. Interpretive dance, volleyball, weightlifting. You got to pick two per semester. And so volleyball I didn't complete because I got a boob job I couldn't do the practicum, the six-week practicum. So when I go to graduate, I realize I am an elective short and a practicum short. So I literally had to go back to my university to play volleyball for six weeks, and, I also took... The elective I took was Women in Religion. It was, like... I felt like it was actually super interesting. My prof was amazing. I had just turned 24, September 1998, had to go back for these two electives. Wednesday night, Women in Religion. First, first time we... The first class, the prof was like, "I want you to bring in your understand- like, what is a female deity? What is a goddess? I want you to bring in images of a goddess so that we can talk about it," right? I brought my mom. My mom had never been to campus. I was four years into one of the most prestigious universities in Canada, and my mom had never been on campus. My mom, dropped out of school in the eighth grade. She had... She was one of eight. She was the oldest girl. She took care of her siblings, the boys that were older than her and the girls that came after her. And I know that she didn't feel... It was a part of my life that she did not feel like she had access to or was allowed to have access to. So I didn't tell her. I was just like, "I just want you to come to campus, and, we'll go out for lunch, and, I want you to come to my class 'cause I'm almost done and you have no idea what I do." And, so we got in there, and it was a huge lecture hall, and the prof starts like, "Okay, who has their images?" And everybody went. Somebody brought, like, a picture of Oprah and, like, there was all, all... Listen, whatever. This is 1998, okay? She was not problematic at that point.

Krisserin 15:51

Okay

Amanda she/her/them/us 15:53

so was, like, all different, right? And then I stood up and I was like, "I brought my mom," and, explained why I brought my mom, and everybody clapped. Everybody was clapping. My mom was, like, bright red.

Krisserin 16:06

Oh

Amanda she/her/them/us 16:07

her go to the front, like walk all the way down to the front and, do a little mini interview. I know she was dying, but I was just like I wanted people to see this woman like I saw her. She had such a small life in... It was, like, encapsulated in our family. Our family relied on her so much. She was the problem-solver. She was the one, when they, somebody didn't have a babysitter, dropped the kids off at our house. Like my nephew would come over with no diapers, no baby clothes. The first pictures we have of him, he's wearing my Cabbage Patch Kid clothes. She was just the rock that, the earth that we gravitated around. And, I just wanted know how I felt. So that's September of 1998. Her birthday was October 1998. November 18th, 1998, she took her own life. So I just, I went off the rails. I was already off the rails. I already was so lost. I didn't know who I was, what I wanted to be. I think about, the cognitive dissonance of being this, artist, but, but being told that's not real, that's not a thing. and how do I have, a regular job, you know? I didn't understand. I didn't know. then once she died, it was almost like, who gives a fuck? does any of this matter? If this is how it ends, fuck it.

Krisserin 17:27

Mm-hmm

Amanda she/her/them/us 17:28

My mom she was just, this sweet, like, drinking a lot at the end. I do believe, alcoholism, I see it in my aunts, I see it in my mom. I, I believe it is a way that we stay, for a long time. It's medication. It's, until it isn't, right? And I had, I dr- had been drinking since I was 13, but drugs were never a part of my story until she died, and then I was just like, who fucking cares? Whatever. so I just kinda went on a tear from, 24 to 37. I met a guy. I moved to LA. We started doing speed. I say speed, meth, crystal, crank, whatever you wanna call it. We started doing... And it was one of those things where I was just like, I went to college. There was a moment where I was like, I went to college. What am I doing here? And there's just a moment of like, how is this my life? And I ended up leaving, at like 28, broke my neck a week later, was in the cervical halo for four and a half months. didn't take that first writing class until probably I was 30 and did not get sober until I turned 37. So it was just kind of like, like we'll write an essay here or we'll do some little thing there. Like I wrote for like a music website for a while. And I remember I went to see Janet Fitch and Les Blasco in conversation at the Canal Club, which is, like, a bar in Venice, and it was just down the street from where my apartment was. And I was obsessed with White Oleander. It was like one of my favorite books ever, still one of my favorite books ever. I remember just going and sitting in the back and just being in awe, like this is real life. I'm sitting here and I'm like, actually, that, that's Janet Fitch, in front of me, and asking like, what, what should I do? Like, I had taken a... I was also living in Scottsdale. I had taken a creative writing, um, at the local community college, I said, "What do I do next?" And I remember Les saying, start taking classes at UCLA at Extension Writers Program, that's what I did. that's how I kind of found my way to Emerging Voices. So I originally just took whatever. Like, I took like Finding the Muse and, one-day things because that was something I felt like I could commit to, or weekend workshops. I remember being in, just like a general creative writing class. And someone in the class kept saying, "Well, Sam Dunn says this, and Sam Dunn says that," and I took a class with Sam Dunn, and Sam Dunn said... And I was like, who's this Sam Dunn guy? Like, why does this person keep talking about him? 'Cause I just assumed it was a him, of course, 'cause that's what we do. And Samantha Dunn this was the s- so I took my next class with Samantha Dunn, I think that I started writing about my accident because it was the story that I had, right? Like ver- I would tell people the story like- conversationally and they would be like, "Oh my God, this is insane. You should write a book." And so when I was in that creative writing class in Scottsdale, we had an assignment based off of Joyce Carol Oates', ugh, like notes on a, something about a girls' reformatory. It was this really like experimental like essay where it was this girl who was getting in trouble, ends up at a reformatory. It was switching POV. It was using lists. It was this really kind of wild like throw whatever at the page and see what sticks. And as you guys can imagine, m- that's how my mind works. This is how I am all the time, so like to me that made sense. I've been diagnosed anxiety, bipolar, clinical depression. We've landed on ADD, ADHD, which feels like the mor- most organic thing. And I also feel like I definitely have a touch of the 'tism, which would explain that real mathematical structure that I landed on that no one else understood but I was real excited about. And I don't know, like I felt like I had ownership of this story. "Oh, I can write about this 'cause this thing really happened to me." so just used that format. I was alway- I was also like real into my addiction. I'm 13 years sober, but at the time I was using methamphetamine. I was using MDMA, cocaine, like whatever, and I remember the night before the assignment was due, we stayed up all night long because I hadn't done the assignment. And so like I stayed in my room writing and everybody else was downstairs partying, and that's how I... That was, that's how that first... That's where my book started, y'all, was like an o- like staying up all night having to go into class because I had to hand something in. And it got such a... People freaked out about how great it was, and I was like, "Okay, well, I guess this is gonna be the story." but I remember David Ulin at Festival of Books he said, like, basically we're all just, writing about our parents, uh, I, that just felt really accurate to me. You know, now that I work in treatment and recovery and mental health, it's, it comes up again and again that we're just constantly trying to heal the, that OG wound, that original wound, which is generally with our caretakers. I would say that's how I found my way to nonfiction.

Krisserin 22:57

Yeah what's interesting is I found out about the PEN EV program in Les class also

Amanda she/her/them/us 23:03

Yeah.

Krisserin 23:04

Um and Les we also lost to

Amanda she/her/them/us 23:07

Yeah.

Krisserin 23:08

couple years ago um which was very tragic for the Los Angeles writing community So tell us a little bit about found breathwork and actually it'd be probably really useful for our listeners for you to just tell us what breathwork is

Amanda she/her/them/us 23:24

Breathwork is just being intentional with your breathing, okay? It's like we're always breathing or we'd be dead. We just don't generally think about it. So breathwork is just, breathing in a certain rhythm or pattern, to some end, for some purpose. breathwork has been around for thousands of years. The oldest texts that include breathwork are at least 2,500 years old. Eastern traditions, Taoist, Qigong, yogic traditions, pranayama. I did not find my way to breathwork that way because I am a white girl from Canada, and I am also very ADD. Uh, hard for me to sit still. I used to say, I hated yoga because it was like I couldn't concentrate, I couldn't follow. I'm like a perfectionist. I'm trying to do what they're saying. I'm so out of... I'm so in my head the entire time, not realizing that's the point. You keep going until that stops happening, but, I didn't enjoy it. And I got sober in... Well, I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2011. I was awarded the PEN Fellowship in 2012. I got divorced and was cancer-free, at the same time, so end of 2012. And I just, I didn't know how, what to do. I was like, "I don't know how to be an adult. I don't know how to take care of myself. What's an action item that I can take? What's a concrete thing I can do to, change?" And it was stop drinking. Stop drinking, stop using. And I was like, you know, something I could see. So very much, I was very much this concrete person. That's why it's so hilarious that I ended up teaching breathwork, but it was very much, in my body, degree in kinesiology, personal trainer. It had to be something that I could see that was concrete. So I started, and I thought, "I'm gonna do this for a year, and I can always go back to drinking, if this doesn't make a change." And I really, gave it everything that I had that first year. I was just like, "I don't know how to do this, so I'm open to whatever people tell me." And then I remember, my first couple months of sobriety, I cried constantly or I was raging. I carried around a Costco-sized bag of peanut butter M&M's all, at all times. I wore overalls every day. I was bald 'cause I had just come out of chemo. I just looked- interesting, I'm sure. But like I would just have my, of my overalls stuffed with M&Ms, and I'll never forget being in a meeting in Venice, and I shared, 'cause they make you, then I reach into my pocket to like self-soothe and there were no M&Ms, and I literally just started sobbing. And everybody's just like, "What is happening?" a similar way, I was at a massage therapy appointment, and the therapist put her hand on my back and I started sobbing. And she said... I was like, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm not even sad. I don't even know where this is coming from." And she said, "Have you ever tried breathwork?" And I said, "I don't understand the question. Aren't we always breathing?" And she said, it's a meditation practice. I think you would really benefit." And I was just, "Whatever," and just left and forgot about it. And a couple weeks later, I was at dinner at another writer's house, and was sat beside someone that I didn't know, and I said, "What do you do?" As we do in Los Angeles, and he said, "I'm a breathwork practitioner." And I was like, "Oh, God." And it was just one of those things where you're like, okay, like the world, the Earth, the universe, your life is putting things in front of you to do the thing, 'cause he invited me to a free class of his. And I just said, "Okay." And I went, and I had no idea what to expect, and it was just, okay, we set an intention, here's the pattern of breath, we're gonna breathe like this for 25 minutes, then we meditate, and I'll see you on the other side. And I was like, "Okay." And started doing the breath, and people were screaming and like hysterically laughing and crying, and I was just like, "What is happening? Like, where am I?" obviously in my own head, and then the practitioner came around and put his hand on my chest to help guide my breath, and I burst into tears. And it was like I walked through a portal. I can't explain it in any other way. It was just like I had cried a lot. I'm a very emotional person. Tears are no big deal for me. But it was just the transformation that happened just from my breath as someone who has done so many drugs, like I can't even explain to you, that it was unlike anything I had ever felt physically, emotionally, and spiritually. felt like there was hope, was something bigger than myself. I felt presence, and I immediately signed up for teacher training. 'Cause I was like, if I could possibly help someone who felt like me feel like this is what I wanna do with my life. I'll pull that back around to writing, because that is why I wrote nonfiction, was like, that, another reason. Because, write what you know is what we tell beginners. But I also had this crazy story, so like the plot was already there. Recovery memoirs, so this is like, 2000, whenever A Million Little Pieces came out, James Frey, and I know I'm gonna catch shade for this, and I don't care. But like when that book came out, that was one of the first recovery memoirs that I picked up, and I loved it. And again, it was this question of form. It was really like the s- sentence structure was kind of all over the place. It felt like a diary. Like it felt like something I could do, and I also felt like a kinship with this person. In a similar way, I think people will say about Cheryl Strayed's writing, like the s- the, the structure structurally, like she's, she's doing something that's not what? Like right or correct, it resonates, especially if you're the audience, right? I found my way to recovery through recovery memoir. I would read those books, and I would be like, know that I can get through this because I have... I'm holding the proof in my hands." No matter what the end of the story is, something happened because this person made a book, right? And I wanted that, and I wanted to- people to feel less alone, seen, heard, like they matter. I wanted them to know my mother. I wanted them to know what she suffered, what she went through. I wanted... You know what I mean? So it was all about presence and being seen, and that was, that is why I started with nonfiction. It was like, great, I had this good story, but that was the point. People would say to me, "Why this story? Why you?" And it's like, I shouldn't be here. For so many reasons, I shouldn't be here. The statistics of people s- who survive familial suicide, especially like a parent or a close family member, they astronomically increase if you have, right? Because it becomes an option. So after my mom did it, a year later, my uncle did it. A month after that, my cousin did it. When I was five, an aunt did it. So we were just like swimming in the stew of like, how do we stay? And so for me, it was like people would ask me, "What was Halo about? What does she want?" And for a long time, I couldn't answer the question because I was still in active addiction. And I would just be like, "I don't know." then I realized that was a story about me figuring out how to stay. how do, and when I say, and then like not killing myself, right? all of the things I did to survive the death of my mother. And like at, that is what I, that was the motivation for this type of writing.

Krisserin 31:06

Well I will say helped me a lot and I know Amanda knows this because I was always reaching out to her about it but I was sober curious for a really long time before I decided to quit drinking and that was actually it'll be three years ago on the 24th or the 25th that I stopped drinking and I never looked back And I and it you know I would reach out to Amanda on Facebook or whatever and talk to her about it and she was so generous with sharing encouragement and just having someone to be honest and vulnerable about like this is something that I'm struggling with and this is something that I'm thinking about so I do think that telling our stories and sharing and having models for recovery and having models for sobriety is really important which is why I'm very happy to even you have been an incredible example for me to be honest and vulnerable about the fact that I quit drinking cause I feel like it makes a it makes it easier for other people And then people will say to me I've been thinking about quitting drinking I'm like Great You

Amanda she/her/them/us 32:05

Yeah, dude. Yeah.

Krisserin 32:07

it

Amanda she/her/them/us 32:07

try it. Yeah.

Krisserin 32:09

it you know it's been incredible for me so I just wanted to say thank you for that And you know my experience with your breathwork class was pretty remarkable and I find it really interesting to hear you talk about your first experience cause it was very similar to mine I know you opened the workshop with us writing down or speaking about what we're most afraid of and also who we miss the most and I definitely cried I was so grateful for the mask cause I

Amanda she/her/them/us 32:37

Yeah.

Krisserin 32:38

pretend that no one could see me crying but I was definitely crying and I you know had recently this 50-page kind of like short

Amanda she/her/them/us 32:47

Every time

Krisserin 32:47

nonfiction piece that my mom wrote about my grandmother

Amanda she/her/them/us 32:50

someone's

Krisserin 32:51

My great-grandmother who died during World War II And I just felt when we were in the meditation section I could see them

Amanda she/her/them/us 32:59

like,

Krisserin 32:59

I could see my great-grandmother and my grandmother like standing over me I'm gonna cry and it really unlocked something for me And

Amanda she/her/them/us 33:06

"I cried," I'm like, "Yay!" Okay, go.

Krisserin 33:10

I I cry easily also but it you know I was able to kind of like write And journal out at the end things that I feel being kind of like that that

Amanda she/her/them/us 33:20

Yeah.

Krisserin 33:24

that there was a part of me and I feel like I probably have to do more workshops I just like part of me just didn't wanna let go like this feeling and this tension that I feel like I carry around with me all the time and I just didn't wanna let it go And I knew that if I did I would probably feel better but I was like way too afraid to

Amanda she/her/them/us 33:45

Yeah. What do you think you're afraid of?

Krisserin 33:48

don't know We're not diagnosing me on the

Amanda she/her/them/us 33:50

Okay. Well, like I think that like this leads into, like I know we, I wanna talk about breathwork and creativity and breathwork and writing, right?

Krisserin 33:58

Yeah

Amanda she/her/them/us 33:59

It's interesting to me also is to remember that breathwork, it's like any kind of practice, right? It's like you don't go to the gym once and suddenly you look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Like you go to the gym over and over again, right?

Krisserin 34:11

Right

Amanda she/her/them/us 34:11

And, breathwork is in a simi- is a similar thing, and I think that is, like that we keep showing up ourselves because I think each time that we're able to walk through another doorway,

Krisserin 34:23

Mm-hmm

Amanda she/her/them/us 34:25

Of the body because kinesiology, but like the, this idea that we live in our heads, especially as writers and creatives, right? Because you're constantly thinking about s- everything is story, everything is narrative. And to figure out how to get in the body, so like we live in our heads because that logical mind is how we get things on the paper, but our stories are imprinted on our bodies. And lately, the best example I have for this is my reactive dog. So we have a rescue dog, and he is super reactive. So he will like, he acts like he's fine. He's so cute, which is also the problem, is people are like, "Oh my God, he's so cute," and then he tries to eat your face. And so when you walk him, you have to be so on, right? So we talk about your nervous system. We're in fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So these are the survival settings for our nervous system. So, you know, he has to go after... The first day we brought him home, he like bit the neighbor on the butt, so I was like, not really like, but tried to. I stopped it before it happened. traumatized by this dog, so like when I take him out on a walk, it's like you are, every little noise, it's almost like a gunshot. Ev- oh my God, there's a dog there. Or you'll walk by a house and a dog will bark in the backyard, and you weren't really paying attention, so like, right? This idea of like, if it's hysterical, it's historical, and we have these outsized reactions to things, right? So our stories live inside of us, and sometimes our nervous system protects us from the story because that's how we stay alive. As a little kid, our parents, no matter what they did to us or how they treated us, and this is not throwing shade or blame on anyone because I believe that most of us do the best that we can with the, with the tools that we have, when our parents didn't really have a lot of tools, right? Not, especially my parents did not. So to figure out how, when we go into the breathwork session, we don't know what's gonna surface, right? So like when we do breathwork for creativity, it's just like psychedelic therapy, that we need set, setting, intention, integration. So that first class that I took- didn't have that. We spoke an intention, and then we went in, and for me it was just like, y'all, I'm an ex-drug addict, so it felt like being high as fuck, and I was like, "Oh my God, I can do this for free, and I can do this in sobriety? I'm gonna keep doing this," realizing that, the deeper aspects of it, right? So now, I'm 13 years in, and I teach in mental health and substances, and I'm a creative, and I work with craft school, and I've worked with writers and just trying to figure out, how do we kind of open the third eye, if you will, or access to the muse. So I know y'all are gonna ask me about books, but I think The War of Art, Steven Pressfield, is an amazing craft book, and I bring it up a lot because I think about resistance, right? That's why I was like, "What do you think what do you think the resistance is?" Because I'm not asking from a therapeutic standpoint. I'm asking from a creative standpoint in that book, Steven Pressfield says the things that are soul, our very being, like our reason for living, that's the thing that we resist the most. And so, what is it about that resistance? Like, where does the resistance come from? And I think that ultimately a lot of times it is old stories, limiting beliefs, right? So it's my dad saying to me, "That's not real. It's not a real job. Writing isn't a real job. Being an artist isn't a real job," and I internalize that. That story is imprinted on my nervous system. So to... Who am I to think that I get to do this? It's not real. And as much as I logically understand that not to be true, logical mind and your nervous system, your lizard brain, they don't really talk, right? So, when we talk about writer's block, writer's block could be like, "Well, I don't know where to go with the story," "I don't know what the character's gonna do next," or, "I don't understand structure." It could be the things that we talk about so much in writing, writing classes and writing groups. We could be like, "Okay, that's the intention, so, like, what's the problem," right? And so we talk about that, and then it's like, okay, where are you stuck? Breathwork is a lot of getting unstuck, think we have these surface level ideas of what being stuck means, and then when you go into the session, suddenly you're with your mom and your grandmother, and you're, unlocking this kind of connection I would say potentially to what's keeping you stuck or what's blocking your muse or whatever. I don't wanna get too woo woo 'cause I think we lose people, but there's... this is science. There's science behind, nervous system training, and that's basically what we're doing, right? There's an optimal functionality, and if we're too That is not good either. I think about it in terms of mental health because that's what I do, but it's like, so like anxiety, depression in the middle. If we think about them as energetic imbalances, because it's just like this is energy work, like how can we talk about this where we don't get too science-y? There is a sweet spot for optimal performance, right? And we're figuring out how to access that sweet spot, it's just that oh, you're thinking about your kids and what you have to do for work, and you're obsessing over the day-to-day front of mind logical stuff. Sometimes you're future tripping. Th- who's gonna buy this book? Does the audience really care? The publishing industry is collapsing. What am I doing with this? Or you're l- in the, in the past, all of the woulda, shoulda, couldas. I could have... Like, for me, that's like, I was married to a banker, you guys. Like I could have done it. I coulda went back to school. I could have got an MFA. I could have done anything, and I didn't. And so, like there's a lot of regret and shame and blame that I'm still working through I need to just realize, like my n- my nerve... I wasn't ready. Like the trauma was still there. The things that were blocking me, blocking the muse, blocking the effort w- were very much red hot imprints on my nervous system. Like the thing at... That's how breathwork helps us, especially the ty- I, I practice rebirthing breathwork. So I said breathwork's 2,500 years old. Of course, like old white guys figured out how to make it their own. in the '50s and '60s, the... Yeah.

Krisserin 40:59

and I know intimately having

Amanda she/her/them/us 41:02

in the fi-

Krisserin 41:02

of those startups that did exactly that

Amanda she/her/them/us 41:05

oh my God.

Kelton 41:06

I would love especially for our listeners, you know, Krisserin and I have a storied history with breathwork now and incorporate it into our lives in many ways, and I related to a lot of what you said. My own, therapist, when I asked her about, potential psychotherapies, she was like, "Your tether to reality is so thin, I think you should just stick with breathwork." And I was like,

Amanda she/her/them/us 41:28

yeah. Interesting.

Kelton 41:30

Woman." But I-- for the people who listen who aren't as familiar with it, I'd love to just introduce them to a little bit of it and guide them through something if you're open to it

Amanda she/her/them/us 41:40

Absolutely. Human beings, we are meaning makers, right? So to create ceremony around your practice, like I burned the palo santo before we sat down. santo calls the energy in. I've never been somebody who's really into crystals, but I do like rocks. So it was like I didn't really care what the crystal was doing, I just cared how it felt in my hand. How was it, how was I being drawn to it? the shape, the texture, right? And then I would look it up after. And I was like the red carnelian is my favorite stone, and that's how I picked it, and it turns out that it is a creativity stone. It is also, the stone for Virgos. I didn't realize this, but apparently we have, a birthstone and also, a crystal or two associated with our astrological sign. I think part of it, of your practice is to, pull in ceremony. So do you light a candle? Is there somewhere that you sit? How do you write? Is there a pen? You know, all of these kind of ways to kind of create space to start, and then to basically have, a writing prompt of, Where am I stuck? Or what do I wanna do today? So like just to have a very intentional, what does today mean? Or it could just be a throat-clearing, where I think that sometimes our minds are so bogged down by the busyness of today, to just sit for five minutes and just out. This is what's in my head. This is what's in my head, and then you just write, and you don't have to be able to read it. No one's gonna read it. You're not gonna read it. It's just messy. I got in trouble with all the writers on the weekend group because they were like, "You don't know it's not gonna be in The New Yorker." And I was like, "Okay, guys. Just

Krisserin 43:24

that That was me

Amanda she/her/them/us 43:25

down, calm down." Um, like, I feel like again, that's, that's a s- that's part of control, and I would say that's your ego mind not wanting to let go. So it's interesting that you were like, "There's something in me that didn't wanna let go," right? So if we're able to just, ugh, it's prepping the canvas, tabula rasa. And then just sit with your feet on the ground, maybe with your hands on your knees, and just start to breathe in through your nose. You can close your eyes and just breathe in through your nose. And sigh it out. In through your nose. And sigh it out. And you can set a timer for maybe two or three minutes that you're not watching a clock, and you're just breathing, and you're gonna... Your mind will be busy. Notice the busy thoughts. We're not trying to clear the mind. We're just trying to redirect the focus into the breath. And you're just gonna stay with that circle for two minutes. You could also use mantra music, affirmation music. I find that helpful. I think depending on who we are, the neurodivergence really changes how our brains kind of function. The ability to see mental images also change. Sometimes people really struggle to focus just on the breath, to have a mantra song, Beautiful Chorus is one of my bands. One of their mantra songs is, "I am everything. I am everything I wanna be. I am everything I need." So even if you feel like that busy mind won't quiet, if you have the mantra song on, you start to just see the words in your mind or it's tickling some part of your psyche that allows you to stay with the breath. Having breath m- like just you can also say in your head, "Inhale, how do we settle into the chair? How do we settle into the chair with intention? we've talked about setting intention, right? And so after that two or three minutes, return to the page. What came up? were you thinking about? What did you see? What did you hear? What did you feel? The circle breath can get you settled, can stimulate your nervous system, kind of like the rebirthing breath, but it's just a little bit more gentle. I would say with the rebirthing breath try it in a class first or try it with an instructor just to see because it is trauma therapy, so we never know what's gonna come up and, you know, we wanna make sure that we're not triggering a memory that maybe you didn't even know you were holding and then leave you... I don't know if either of you have done EMDR trauma therapy.

Kelton 46:11

I have quite a bit.

Amanda she/her/them/us 46:13

So do you know, there is a very clear container for ER- EMDR because we don't know what's gonna happen, right? So just to be in that place where it's like you are, you know what to expect, you have an idea of what's gonna come up. You have people in place therapist, friends, I think sometimes when I talk about this people are like, "R- right, like, just with your breath?" But, I don't think... Again, a lot of drugs, guys, like a lot of drugs. And the fact that what happens in a breathwork session is so wildly profound, you can see visions, you can feel presence, you can time travel, astral projection.

Kelton 46:58

For anyone who has, doubt about the capabilities of breathwork, it goes back to something you said earlier where it's if you don't breathe, you die. It is truly one of the most powerful things in our lives and we're so regulated to use it in a really, boring, banal kind of way. But it is the source of life and death. So of course, you could be able to use it to access your creativity and to access different worlds in your mind. And I think, I don't really consider that woo anymore. When I first began my career i-in mental health and, started working at Headspace, I was very much on board with the idea that, you had to kind of add all this masculine layer of scientific, credibility in order to present it as valuable. And now I'm just like, "Get rid of that. You're in my way. This framework is holding me back."

Amanda she/her/them/us 47:49

100%. And a lot of times in therapy- When we get to a place where we're in treatment or we're in therapy, it's about control. How do you maintain control? Somebody keeps having panic attacks, and it's like, "Okay, I'm gonna give you a bunch of tools to manage the panic." Not, not help the panic,

Krisserin 48:08

Mm-hmm

Amanda she/her/them/us 48:09

the panic, right? And so, asking people, breathwork isn't about managing it. It's about moving the goalpost for the experience, and so I'm asking you to be with the panic, sit with the panic, walk through the panic. What is the story that's imprinted on your nervous system? is the story that maybe you don't even remember? And if we are able to, in a s- very similar way to MDMA, it's like we are re-ener- we're sending energy to the things that we have locked in a, i- you know, a drawer in the deepest, deepest parts of ourselves, and we don't wanna look at or think about. And unfortunately, when we... And bringing it back to being creative, unfortunately, that can block the muse, right? That can block our access our creativity, our sense of wonder and awe because everything is diluted because we've shut it the fuck down because we're afraid of ourselves, right? And so to be able to... Part of being an artist and being a creative is to be afraid, but you do it anyway, right? It's I don't know. And I think a lot, too, with, the publishing industry right now, everything's collapsing. No one cares about the story. If we let ourselves be boxed in by that story, ma- we're not gonna write anymore. We're not gonna create anymore. And I think that, the creating has to feed our soul in a way that we have to do it no matter what. I will say that part of breathwork, my breathwork classes allow me to be an artist. am very intentional with the playlist. Everything that I wanted from writing nonfiction I get in a very real-world context. I don't wanna say my artistry because it's our artistry. It's the creative spark. It's the universal flow. I've just figured out a way to package it in a way that resonates. It's my voice, right? And similar to my writing, I have a very strong voice. I'm all over the fucking place, you guys. I totally understand that. But I figured out my voice in my groups, and I want other people... that's the goal. How do we get other people to find their voice so they feel less alone, they feel like they can do this, like their possibility, their purpose revealed? This does that,

Krisserin 50:23

Yeah I was gonna

Kelton 50:24

how can

Krisserin 50:25

us can how people can... find your workshops

Kelton 50:28

Yeah

Krisserin 50:28

teach them online right

Amanda she/her/them/us 50:29

I do have an 8:00 AM class online Saturday morning. Trying to figure out how to make it work for West Coast and East Coast folks has been a little challenging. Um, but yeah, so @theamandafletcher, T-H-E amandafletcher That's also my Instagram.

Krisserin 50:53

All right

Amanda she/her/them/us 50:54

me, yeah.

Krisserin 50:56

her Email

Amanda she/her/them/us 50:57

Yeah.

Krisserin 50:58

a schedule of breathwork sessions Well Amanda I will say that I ended my session with you thinking about my youngest daughter just running around and being happy and free and that's how I felt coming out of your session So everyone should go and check out Amanda's Instagram and email her for a schedule But Amanda Thank you so much for coming on. It was such a pleasure. And, we all are waiting for your memoir, so excited to read it once it's done.

Amanda she/her/them/us 51:25

you so much for having me, and I know it's a lot. I know I'm all over the place. I'm doing my best to stay on the road. There's just a lot of aside, so I appreciate you having patience.

Krisserin 51:35

Uh, we, we loved having you on.

Kelton 51:37

Awesome to meet you

Amanda she/her/them/us 51:39

Thanks both.

Kelton 51:43

it continues to be one of my favorite parts of this podcast is just like broadening that network of people that, we can, you know, call on and they can call on us. And yeah, I, it makes me happy.

Krisserin 51:58

What do you think about using breathwork for, to unlock your creative potential?

Kelton 52:05

'Cause on my calendar this week is actually, I scheduled a little kundalini yoga session. Kundalini yoga is, you know, a lot of fire breath, and it's my favorite kind of yoga, and every time I have done it, it has helped unlock, like, not just creativity, but like a new version of myself. And so I wa- had been s- throughout my, like, stress ball being like, "We gotta get back to it, gotta get back to it," so I finally had put two sessions on my own calendar. and so it just sort of like felt magical and mystical that this had, like, aligned with that, 'cause I do find it incredibly useful. I mean, it's wh- it's why most of the retreats I've been on for writing also include yoga.

Krisserin 52:45

Mm-hmm.

Kelton 52:46

'Cause it's like getting the breath, release the tension, get out of your head and into your body and, let the source flow through you.

Krisserin 52:55

So it sounds like we're gonna have to invite Amanda on the retreat

Kelton 52:59

Yeah.

Krisserin 53:02

We'll invite Amanda. We'll have a horseback riding session

Kelton 53:06

Mm-hmm. right. Yeah, we'll have horse therapy. It's gonna... This gl- so the retreat's gonna be lit.

Krisserin 53:12

It's gonna be so amaz- karaoke?

Kelton 53:15

Yeah, right. I forgot we're also singing karaoke at this retreat.

Krisserin 53:21

Have to. It's the best part. I love karaoke. Nothing more fun than making a fool of yourself in front of a group of people you barely know.

Kelton 53:29

Listen, that's not why I do karaoke.

Krisserin 53:32

Well, I know you're probably just showing off. I also show off. I also, my mezzo-soprano-ness comes out,

Kelton 53:39

That's why we can't do karaoke at the retreat. We're not allowed to host the retreat and drag everyone to karaoke and then be like, "Oh, wait. Sorry.

Krisserin 53:46

We can actually sing

Kelton 53:49

what mean device. That's our villain origin story

Krisserin 53:56

I love it. All right, Kelton, well, what are our goals for this upcoming week?

Kelton 54:03

Hmm. Well, it's Memorial Day.

Krisserin 54:09

Oh yeah, we have a three-day weekend. Thank God. I'm gonna sleep so much

Kelton 54:15

I think if I can find a cat sitter, we're going back to the desert to go camping.

Krisserin 54:24

I'm just gonna not, I'm just gonna... Okay. All

Kelton 54:26

we're not gonna...

Krisserin 54:27

right

Kelton 54:29

Sounds fun. Um, I, in, uh, if I can't find a cat sitter, then we'll go for maybe one or two nights, and Woodson and I will stay home. And I'll, I'll find some fun stuff to do with him. looking at the week ahead, I don't know. I'm going low stakes on the goals, because by the time we meet, I'll only have one day of daycare. Oh.

Krisserin 54:56

Yeah, I'm also gonna go listics on the goals. I'm gonna try and write once. If I manage to write once, I think that that would be a, a pretty incredible achievement since it's been two weeks

Kelton 55:07

that, yeah. Oh, is this a writing podcast?

Krisserin 55:11

Oh, that's right.

Kelton 55:12

I

Krisserin 55:12

You're

Kelton 55:15

I think write once is a beautiful goal. I've been kinda looking down the barrel of the fact that I, I gave myself May off from the newsletter, my life has not felt any less busy. I'm like, "Oh, no. In June I have to write two newsletters a week again." so at least I know what most of them are. That helps. But I do think that before June gets here, I should just write once, to

Krisserin 55:45

Okay.

Kelton 55:45

kinda

Krisserin 55:46

Shake off.

Kelton 55:47

a little bit.

Krisserin 55:48

Yeah, yeah. Little shake out writing session. I like that. Okay. Well, those are our goals. Those are our goals for the week. Hopefully, all of you out there are a lot more productive than we are, or if not, you know, you're taking care of yourself, which we find equally as important. In the meantime, we'd love to hear from you. You can email us at officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. By the way, shout out to Jessica Castillo, who sent us a very nice email last week, and actually got to meet her at AWP last year, which was really fun for me. Love meeting our listeners in real life, and love when they reach out to us. So please do send us an email. We would love to hear from you. You can follow us on all the places at Pen Pals Pod. You can, follow Kelton at keltonkin on Instagram, and starting in June, you can read her writing at shangrilogs.substack.com. You can follow me at krisserin on TikTok, which I have not posted anything in a long time, and krisserin.substack.com for my writing. In the meantime, we hope all of you have very happy, healthy, and semi-productive weeks, and that you're not feeling as tired and burned out as we are. But yeah, happy writing

Kelton 57:01

Take a few deep breaths out there.